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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	father_n	place_n	worship_v	1,611	5	9.3694	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19150	Epphata to F.T., or, The defence of the Right Reuerend Father in God, the Lord Bishop of Elie, Lord High-Almoner and Priuie Counsellour to the Kings Most Excellent Maiestie concerning his answer to Cardinall Bellarmines apologie, against the slaunderous cauills of a namelesse adioyner, entitling his booke in euery page of it, A discouerie of many fowle absurdities, falsities, lyes, &c. : wherein these things cheifely are discussed, (besides many other incident), 1. The popes false primacie, clayming by Peter, 2. Invocation of saints, with worship of creatures, and faith in them, 3. The supremacie of kings both in temporall and ecclesiasticall matters and causes, ouer all states and persons, &c. within their realmes and dominions / by Dr. Collins ...	Collins, Samuel, 1576-1651.; Bellarmino, Roberto Francesco Romolo, Saint, 1542-1621. Apologia.	1617 (1617)	STC 5561; ESTC S297	540,970	628

Apostle not virtually as you would haue it the whole quire or Colledge of them Our Sauiour was not so poore as to haue but one Apostle saies Irenaeus l. 3. against them that thought Paul was the onely man So farre off was Peter then that scarce he was thought to be one of the number Indeede twelue as I shewed you before for great cause But concerning Peter vnus Apostolus saies S. Austen but one Apostle As for the prime we graunt you as you haue beene often told and to content you the more more then in one regard of primacie An excellent flower he was in that garland what would you els But that this primacie was distinct from your supposed magistracie or maiestie Ecclesiasticall as you would inferre out of gerere personam heare what followes S. Austen hauing recounted the three former degrees of Peters condition he proceedes to a fourth neither coincident with the rest nor yet containing any such principalitie as you talke of but meerely affoarded him of our Sauiours free bountie in regard to his excellent worth among his fellowes Sed quando ei dictum est Tibi dabo claues regni coelorum Quodcunque ligaueris super terram erit ligatum in coelis quodcunque solues super terram erit solutum in coelis vniuersam significabat ecclesiam saies S. Austen he stood for the Church it was said to him in the person of the Church not as chiefe Magistrate not as primus Apostolus the first wheele in the clocke but in a sense distinct from the former three degrees therefore he saies Sed quando yet happily the rather for his aforesaid worthines our Sauiour put this part vpon him honoured him with representation of his Catholike Church made him to signifie Ecclesiam vniuersam S. Austens words but onely to signifie it that not as an Apostle but in a fourth consideration which helps you nothing rather spoiles you of all § 18. That which followes is pregnant but I must be sparing though you may thinke we are afraid to enlarge quotations Besides it hath beene brought totidem verbis before out of his 13. serm de verb. Dom secundum Matth. the Father hauing recorded it in two seuerall places so farre he was from retracting it That Petrus à petrâ sicut Christianus à Christo and not è contrà that our boast should not be in men but in the liuing God And yet in truth more plainely in this place which may serue if any thing to open their eyes that dare build vpon a man as the foundation of their Church though it were Peter himselfe that I say not how vnworthy creatures now in his Roome Ideo quippe ait Dominus Super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam quia dixerat Petrus Tu es Christus filius dei viui Super hanc ergo inquit petram quam confessus es aedificabo Ecclesiam meam Petra enim erat Christus super quod fundamentum ipse etiam aedificatus est Petrus Fundamentum quippe aliud nemo potest ponere praeter id quod positum est quod est Christus Iesus That is For therfore saith our Lord Vpon this rocke I will build my Church because Peter had said Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God I will therefore build saies he my Church vpon this rocke which thou hast confessed For the rocke was Christ vpon which foundation euen Peter himselfe was faine to be built For another foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid which is Iesus Christ Then Ecclesia quae fundatur in Christo claues ab eo regni coelorum accepit in Petro id est potestatem ligandi soluendique peccata How so Quod enim est per proprietatem in Christo ecclesia hoc est per significationem Petrus in petrâ qua significatione intelligitur Christus petra Petrus ecclesia Haec igitur ecclesia quam significabat Petrus c. that is to say The Church which is founded in Christ receiued of him the keyes of the kingdome of heauen in Peter that is the power of binding and loosing sinnes For that which properly the Church is in Christ the very same by signification is Peter in the rocke By which signification Christ is vnderstood to be the rock Peter to be the Church This Church therefore which Peter signified c. I say nothing of signification whereof enough before and euery line in S. Austen is fraught with it But is not this strange that Peter whome they euery where aduance for the head S. Austen should still take for the bodie In the person of the bodie of the multitude of the faithfull did our Sauiour heape those priuiledges vpon Peter And whereas some of you are not ashamed to vrge Sequere me for a document of his primacie as if it were Sequere me in gubernatione ecclesiae a strange probleme of desperate pleaders euen there Peter differs not from the communitie but still stands for a figure of the bodie Heare S. Austen Vniuersitati dicitur Sequere me pro quâ vniuersitate passus est Christus It is saide to the whole multitude Follow me for which whole multitude Christ suffered For to construe Follow me in so ambitious a sense that is be Lord as I am Lord be Regent as I am Regent Christian people will soone abhorre though meanely instructed who know we are to follow our Sauiour Christ by imitation of his vertues not by affectation of his place and Peter to follow him no otherwise then we Peter euen as Paul for the agreement of his spirit with them both is not nice to call vs to the imitation of himselfe but yet subordinately to Christ Bee ye followers of me euen as I am of Christ 1. Cor. 11. 1. And so absurd is this argument for Peters Monarchy from Sequere me that S. Austen in his commentarie vpon the 62. Psalme construes Sequere me by vade post me follow me by get thee behind me His words are Redi post me Satanas non enim sapis quae Dei sunt sed quae hominum Then Quia antecedere me vis redi post me vt sequaris me vt iam sequens Christum diceret Agglutinata est anima mea post te Because thou wilt needs goe before me get thee rather behind me that so thou maiest follow me Though it be true also that Sequere me was a common word with our Sauiour and spoken both to S. Matthew when he called him to the Apostleship from the receipt of custome Matth. 9. and to him that preferred to goe and burie his father before the following of his Master Matth. 8. And if Peter obeyed the Sequere with the first of these two in performing his ministerie his successors with the second while they leaue Christ to snatch at a mortuarie § 19. I am afraid of giuing the Reader a surfet in a case so euident but yet I must not omit this one passage that followes in

instances yet you shew it wrings you at the very heart to bee so met with about Maximus his authoritie when in your numb following you set him downe both in Text and Margent for a man whose head should be confounded with blowes rather then confuted with arguments So notable a champion you are at your Ismaels Logicke whose fist was against euery body and euerie bodies against his which Philo interprets to be the image of a disputer but like none so much as the Popish disputants you may say they dispute in Schola Tyranni Act. 19. from whose butcherly hands I pray God deliuer vs that euen thus declare their fingers to be itching till they may deale with vs. § 12. As for the Bishoprick of Rome ioyned or adioyned to the Bishopricke of the whole Church which you would patterne with the Diocesse and Church of Ely recommended to the gouernment of one man or the gouernment of a whole army and one company in that army entrusted to the care of the same generall and such like how vnlike are these comparisons I report me to your conscience For the gouernment of that company which is a limbe of the maine army while it remaines so is impossible to be diuided from the gouernment of the whole and so Ely Church from Ely Diocesse is not so easily separated in ordine currente as now things goe but he that hath the one must needes haue the other But your selues hold that the Bishopricke of the whole world hath beene actually diuided from the Bishopricke of Rome as namely while Peter sate at Antioch before he came to Rome to say nothing of your later Popes that lay soaking at Auenion seuenty yeares together wherupon Bellarmine graunts as you heard euen now that they may be diuided againe if occasion so require and yet hopes that God will not easily permit it by which you see your comparison halts of one foote But the maine point lyes in this That the Bishop of Ely hath no new induction to his Church of Ely more then was giuen him at first entrance vpon the entire Bishopricke and so the generall of an army hath no newe constitution ouer a part of his army after hee is admitted Generall ouer the whole Whereas you giuing to S. Peter the whole Church for his Bishopricke if afterwards he take vp his seate in Rome by a more peculiar title what doth he but extinguish his former cleane which I thinke will hold euen in Fitzherberts Law § 13. Neither say that S. Iames was Bishop of Hierusalem and yet gouernour of the whole Church with the rest of his colleagues for Iames was extraordinarie as you also confesse but shew that one man may be ordinarie Pastor of the whole Church and yet ordinarie Pastor of a part too by a second title distinct from the former or else you say nothing but palter about the Bishops answer to Maximus and bewray a manifest contradiction in your doctrine § 14. I labour to be briefe and I need not to adde any thing to the Bishops answers which you see how pregnant they are against all reproofe Onely because the Bishop is so exceedingly compendious in his Answer to the Apologie and occasion hath beene giuen me to peruse the Sermons newly quoted of S. Maximus I will set downe in a word or two mine owne obseruations out of the said Sermons lately set forth for F. T. to consider if they make not more for S. Paul then that doth for Peter which the Cardinall alleadged In his second Sermon therefore de eodem festo viz. Natali B B. Petri Pauli speaking of Paul after he had commended Peter for his great faith Cuius tanta est nihilominùs plenitudo sidei Whose fulnesse of faith is so great notwithstanding First fulnesse of faith like plenitudo spiritús which they attribute to the Pope And notwithstanding Peters as deseruing a reward no lesse thē his if there were place for deserts vnlesse you will say that Peter had engrossed all before and nothing was left for Paul though deseruing Yea he addes that our Sauiour in his prouidence chose him peculiarem quodam modo ducem a captaine of his Church in a manner singular and without fellow Erat enim tam praecipuus c. vt ad ecclesiae solatium ad firmamentum omnium credentium Christus eum vocaret è caelo Hee was so singular in his gift that to the comfort of his Church and the support of all the faithfull firmamentum credentium not inferiour to petra our Lord directly called him from heauen Lastly Vt aduerteret princeps futurus nominis Christiani that he which was to bee the prince of the name Christian that is the most eminent in all the Christian congregation might marke c. As for the third Sermon of that argument which is that from whence the words Quanti meriti are quoted whereunto the Bishop answers it followes immediately after them in the praise of Peter thus of Paul That Paul in his Apostleship how highly did he please Christ where you see meritum is counterpoized by placere indeed all one who is his owne witnesse sidelissimus sibi testis who shunning to reueale his owne praise and yet seeking to make knowne the power of his Christ wraps vp in modestie c. Alluding no doubt to those places of his Epistles wherein hee euidently challengeth equalitie with the best and reporteth such things as is wonderfull by himselfe though not tickled thereto by any priuate vain-glorie but meerly enforced by his aduersaries importunitie In the first Sermon of that argument they are ioyntly called both Paul and Peter Ecclesiarum omnium principes Princes of all the Churches and againe reuerendissimi Principes omnium Ecclesiarum the most reuerend Princes of all the Churches § 15. I omit your railing in your num 18. where you say the Bishop hath beene puzled with places and faine to trisle wrangle cogge and lye c. I account it my ill happe to be matcht with such a rakeshame that obserues no reuerence and is onely good at proouing our patience Onely my comfort is as Demosthenes is said to haue said in the like that I shall ouercome in beeing put downe and you loose in conquering in so damned an encounter The Bishop had said of the Cardinalls testimonies cited out of the fathers vnum hoc peccant omnia All the places brought for Peters primacie trip in this that they haue nothing in truth which may not straight be granted except some petty word about which I meane not to iangle And what more excellent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 could there be then this a premunition or an amulet against the errors that might arise in vnstable minds by mistaking the fathers while they vse such speaches For as Epiphanius saies that such cautions must be vsed sometimes euen towards the writings of holy Scripture least the Reader be peruerted rather then edified so in the fathers much more

Prince is to doe when he doubts a defection And he addes most elegantly as if he had aimed at the courses lately held by his MAIESTIE 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. least proiects without prosecution be despised and derided suppose the penning of the oath without that noble iustification of it against the Cardinalls countermine which soone followed As for the Adioynder in particular a calo of that campe but the meanest of many 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is not to be dissembled neither what his ends are or the ends of them that aduance him for their champion We heare he is a married man though most decently he rayle against our Ministers for marrying and carpe the Bishop that defends their doing so And they haue fitted him to the full not onely with heresie the woman as Epiphanius calls her and a shrewd one too but the womans heresie For Idolatrie Disloyaltie being the womans heresies as Epiphanius also calls the one and Waltramus of Naumberge the other in particular his booke is composed of these two elements onely and out of them amounts his whole summe Also his carriage is answerable that you may know what he hath been vsed to and what schoole he hath passed through as partly may appeare by that which hath beene said for the Survay of the whole partly is to be discerned out of the Title and Superscription of euery page of his booke viz. Conviciare audactèr aliquid haerebit Turning the speech which the noble captaine sometime vsed to his souldier into the cleane contrarie Non alo te vt pugnes sed vt latres modò atque incestes Onely giue thy booke a broad and a bitter title Call it A Discouerie of lies and leasings of frauds and falshoods vsed by the Bishop say somewhat that so worthie a monument and preuailing with the world may not seeme to goe cleere away without some contradiction Dart disgraces vent thy virulences fling reproaches boldly though thou canst fasten none And the rather because some Priests are said to stagger here in England after their reading the Bishops Answer to the Cardinalls Apologie and considering how he satisfies the very choicest proofes that the Cardinall could bring etiam totis cōtra veritatē viribus vtens besides his own chusing what points he would speak to the Adioynd taske must be vincta venari as Cyrus was wont to say of his huntings in a garden after the Median fashiō to hunt bound beasts namely to keepe them Popish that are alreadie Papists to diuert olde soakers from admitting the light shining in through the loop-holes of their double captiuitie more preiudiced consciences then imprisoned bodies for this I say the Adioynder must throw dust and cast smoake and rayle with him that beares a head to confound braines onely to disioynt iudgements and to disturbe proceedings And herein I report me to the consciences of those very Priests that haue but read his booke whether this be meet dealing for one that writes against a Bishop or likely to perswade with Christian people But neither could Iannes and Iambres resist Moses in his miracles neither may the Truth of God now be outfaced with the calumnies of lewd and shameles persons as S. Paul promises vs by Moses his example for that which Miracles were then the Truth is now by the tenure of S. Pauls sentence 2. Tim. 3. 8. And as for the Bishops reputation whereof none that I haue obserued lesse sollicitous then himselfe it may well be For his glorie accrewes from hence most of all Semper adventantis fuit omen dignitatis bruta praeter modum iniuria As to persist in the storie euen now touch'd vpon when the people murmured then Aaron prospered when the assembly blustered then his rodde flourished then God gaue testimonie of his worthinesse from heauen and not before as S. Chrysostome also notes Allway when a man is most trampled here vpon earth then God is neerest hand to lift vp his scale An Abstract of the chiefer points treated in the Defence either purposely as drawne thether by the Adioynders method or by incidence And it may serue for a summarie resutation of the whole The Contents of the first Part. CHAP. 1. 1. IN what sense S. Austen saies that Peter represented the Churches person Not as Supreame Magistrate which sauours not of Scripture neither for words nor sense of Tullies Offices rather but as a patterne purposely pickt out by our Sauiour to instance vnitie in and to speake to one what he meant of all euen such as otherwise were cleane out of hearing This is debated by collation of diuers places out of S. Austen from pag. 3. to pag. 31. Insomuch as Sylvester himselfe V. Clavis § 5. Omnes Sacerdotes habent claves Nec obstat quod dictum est Petro Tibi dabo Nam hoc factum est ad ostendendū VNITATEM ECCLESIAE Yea Bellarm acknowledges it to be the exposition of some Diuines of Paris quòd Dominus oravit pro Petro vt TOTIVS Ecclesiae figuram gerebat Meaning thereby that Christ praied not for his person but for the Church which he resembled Or els Bellarm neede not reiect this exposition as he doth if they said onely that our Sauiour Christ praied for Peter as chiefe Magistrate For then it would descend fitly enough vpon the Pope which is Bellarmines drift there But he reiecteth it as I said Therefore gerere personam Ecclesiae is not to be chiefe Magistrate in his or their opinion De Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. 3. in initio 2. How Peter arriued to the glorie of Christs sufferings and yet suffered not for vs though fondly he once presumed to suffer for Christ himselfe pro liberatore liberandus as S. Aust saies Against the bartring of Satisfactions between one man an other an vsuall and againfull trade in Poperie p. 32. 33. 34. 3. Peter the fitter to paragon the Church because a great sinner and so apt to shew mercie The Church likewise in the dispensation of the Keyes p. 35. 4. Peters faults expressed by S. Austen but omitted by the Adioynder where he complaines of omissions Fiue in all to the preiudice of their Primacie not to the proofe of it as Bellarmine would p. 35. 36. c. 5. The peace of the Church stands in the gratiousnes of Princes and their wishing well to Relligion not in Iesuiticall resistance and armes p. 38. 39. c. 6. The Papists pride is the same with the Luciferians in that they will not vnderstand Petrum in petra that is the Church in Christ as S. Austen construes it p. 40. 7. The Luciferians forbid mariages as the Papists doe but not the Fathers nor the Councells though it be after vow as is most probable p. 41. 8. The words of S. Ambrose which the Adioynder impudently charges the Bishop to be of his deuising and vtterly beside the truth of all copies are manifestly shewed first to be in eleuen

left aliue to make intercession in our behalfe And hee whets it with that place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayes hee but if there were none els 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God will doe it for his owne sake See ibid. pag. 49. of Iob Daniel and Noe who he sayes benefitted others in their life time by praying for them But euen they being dead shall not be heard sayes God To shew that the most potent for mediation in their life time are not to bee sought vnto after death See pag. 360. and 361. to the same purpose Yet most absurdly you prate numb 55. that prayer to Saints is a necessary duty and may not be spared nor bated vs at any hand because the Catholicke Church hath practised it Does not this bewray your beggarly proofes for prayer to Saints together with your base conceit of the articles of faith and things necessary to saluation I remember Bonauenture and hee not the worst of your schoole-men hauing alleadged many reasons against prayer to Saints and surely not to be despised howsoeuer hee thought of them determines thus in the ende as in very good earnest that those reasons are no reasons because facit hoc communiter ecclesia constat quòd non errat c. that is his last resolution The Church doth otherwise and shee for certaine cannot erre So you But what saies the spirit Psal 93. v. 6. Eleuauerunt flumina vocem suam the floods O God haue lift vp their voice That is the noyse and the dinne which your Church makes But. v. 8. testimonia tua credibilia nimis c. This drownes the other not the other this as Bonauenture fancyeth The Sonne of Sirach sayes right well cap. 16. v. 3. Better is one that doth the will of God then a thousand transgressors The like sentence ●is cited out of your owne Panormitane See Chrysostome at large following the same point and quoting that very place of the Son of Sirach Hom. 8. in Acta Apostolor where among other things he thus sayes That a multitude not agreeing in the will of God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as good as no bodie c. And yet when did you bring vs the consent of the Church vnlesse it be your owne late faction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as S. Chrysostome there distinguishes that alleadge no Councell no Canon nor no ordinance within the compasse assigned for sound antiquity but priuate men onely voluntary deuotions popular multitudes which is the other head or the other horne as I may so call it of the Bishops answer and that impregnable § 27. So Numb 51. You adde to the authority that the Cardinall cited out of S. Chrysostome certaine words next following wherein there is not one dram of matter to your purpose though they were squeezed to the proofe Howbeit I make hast yet I will set them downe Thus he sayes Therefore darest thou be so bold to say that their Lord or Master is dead whose seruants euen when they are dead are the protectors of the world This may prooue perhaps their intercession for vs though in strict Logicke it prooues not that neither but ours to them no way no colour Then hee goes forward And this is not onely seen at Rome but also at Constantinople For euen here the sonne of Constantine the great thought his Father to be much honoured if his bodie were layd before the gates of the Fisherman Thus Chrysostome And what is this to the matter Though I remember the same Father speaking of Constantinople in another place sayes the common voyce was that they were a people that would entertayne any relligion euen the Christians among them and professed The rather this perhaps vnder a semblant of deuotion but the place shewes not so much as that Vnlesse you please your selfe therein that S. Peter is called the fisherman Of whom I remember what Arator lib. 1. Petrus omnia prendens the Pope iust Bethsaidá satus vrbe fuit Then Quo nomine Hebraeo Venatorum est dicta domus quia verus ab illà Ecclesiae venator adest c. You haue succeeded the hunter and Abac. 1. 15. the fisher too Specially in troubled waters § 28. In the 53. Numb You say somewhat if you could prooue it that they that oppugne prayer to Saints oppugne a notable argument of Christs diuinity Which is so contrary to all truth that Athanasius and Cyrill and as many as prooue the diuinity of our Sauiour against the Arrian heresie prooue it by this argument among the first sometime that he is prayed to sometime beleeued in sometime worshipped So Domine Iosu suscipe spiritum meum Stephen at his death And it is Bellarmines owne argument against the Transyluanian Arrians to maintaine the diuinity of our Sauiour Christ by So Psal 72. Prayer shal be made euer vnto him vocabitur hic quoque votis And because you quoted Martiall euen now take Martiall Qui fingit sacros auro vel marmore vultus Non facit ille deos qui ROGAT ille facit Doe you see how gods are made not as Michael Angelus or other Statuaries in your Church are wont whose diuine hand most ridiculously you magnifie Of our Sauiours quia I spake before quia tuum est regnum potentia gloria As who would say therefore we pray to him and but to him that stands inuested with these prerogatiues wee pray to none as Ephrem said euen now Yet you will cauill perhaps as you insinuated before or rather more then insinuated in the beginning of this Chapter that honour and glory is to euery well doer Rom. 2. Therefore to the Saints But it followes in the Lords prayer in saeculum saeculi for euer and euer Gods eternity confutes you which the Saints doe not communicate in neither ab antè at all nor à retrò in the sense that the Lords prayer hath it For the Saints continuance hath fluxe and succession so hath not Gods but is tota simul as Bo●thius hath explained and diuers others Of Athanasius see answer to your 8. Chapter Of Cyrill thus briefly out of one onely booke of his De rectâ Fide ad Theodosium The Angels saies he were bidden to worship the Son poterant enim valde meritò humanitatis videntes paruitatem tardiores ad colendum adorandum esse ad glorisicandum eum quem nobis similem cognoscebant vt quàm longissimè discedere viderentur ab errore That is For they might and that very iustly considering the stendernes of his humane-nature be the lo●ther to worship and to adore him and to glorifie one whome they knew to be like vnto our selues auoiding so the very shew of committing the error of idolatry as carefully as was possible Doe you see how dangerous it is to worship a man and how carefully the Angels fled of from that error

continually assistant What then And this is in stead of Scripture To you it may be But first you haue brought vs no such testimonie of the Church vnlesse you think that all that meete in a Church to heare a Sermon or a Homilie as they did Nyssens of whome we spake a little before are a sufficient assembly to counteruaile a Synode which is the Church without question from whome we should looke for determination in such causes euen by your owne confession Yet now you are offended with vs when we call for Synods As for our Sauiours assistance with vs to the end of the world I see not how that prooues praying to Saints but rather sends vs from them to him as to whome we haue not onely easie accesse but himselfe continually watching about vs. Doe you not read in the Cantic how dangerous it is for the spouse of Christ to run a gadding after the flocks of the shepheards though they be called his fellowes or companions but not fellowes in this And againe in the same booke Paululùm cum pertransissem when I had past a little farther that is as both S. Bernard and Guarricus expound it when I had passed the Angels and soared aboue the creatures then I found where to rest vpon God and Christ no doubt and not before And it prooues not first that the Church cannot erre though shee were the pillar of truth that you speake of 1. Tim. 3. 15. Where if it were lawfull to adde any thing to that which hath beene answered to that place of the Apostle ouer and ouer by our writers I would say that he alluded to the two pillars which the posteritie of Seth are saide to haue erected after the flood containing diuers verities both physicall and Theologicall most memorable in them but not authorizing them at all So happily the Church For to her the depositum was committed coram testibus as the Apostle saies in the next Epistle 2. Tim. 2. 2. the truth as I may say engrauen in her as it were in a marble pillar But secondly though the Church were neuer so infallible for her doctrines yet shee might erre in her practise as you confesse of the Pope For euen the Church her selfe is not more priuiledged with you then the Pope from error Though we neuer read him called the pillar of truth as we doe of others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. O most diuine father the pillar and ground of truth saith Damascen to Iordanes the Archimandrite in his Epistle de Trisagio ad eundem And yet he not infallible neither because no Pope Thirdly your examples put them altogether make no Church Which hole shall we stoppe first in your sieue in your argument § 23. Theodorets beginning is very laudable that they often meete to sing hymnes and praise to the Lord of Martyrs If they went any further I can but say with Epiphanius Haeresis est tanquam mala mulier heresie is like a shrewd woman giue her no aduantage no more then to the water no not a little let her not haue her will If shee had beene curbed at the first it had not come to those riots and extremities that since we labour of Though when I cast mine eye vpon Theodorets owne text not as you trenlace and translate it at pleasure I see very little to make for you if ought at all First he reports onely fashion or vse and that not generall which you promise in your title of this seauenth Chapter Doe you see then how quickly you are fallen away from your tearmes which very tearmes were not answerable to the primitiue challenge although you had kept them which called for sanction not for practise for rules of Fathers not routs of people c. Neither does Theodoret say that the people made their prayers to Martyrs but hauing spoken in the last words of the God of Martyrs he addes immediatly of their praying for all such things as they stand in neede of but specifies not to whome they prayed for them whether to God or to the Martyrs To whome then rather then to the God of Martyrs His words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Thirdly if there prayers were made at first to the Martyrs to them also should their thanks for speeding be returned Of which thankes he speakes in these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But your selues in your Liturgyes sieldome returne thankes to the Saints or Martyrs of which I am to speake in another place And indeede if thankes are to be returned to the Saints can it be but that God is in exceeding great danger of loosing his honour with whome such partners shall communicate And as for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it does not force that they prayed to the Martyrs to accompanie them whose companie they might begge as well of God and he licence them Which neuertheles would be thought of how possibly it can stand with another clause of Theodorets in that very chapter viz. the soules of Saints 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 raunge about heauen and their bodies are dispersed into diuers townes and countries How then could they accompanie the poore way-faring man but that Theodoret turnes rhetoricall and meant no other then onely to oppose to the Gentile gods lately by him named or such as intruded vpon the honour of God Antiochus Hadrian Vespasian c. the exaltation of Christian Saints so farre as was compatible with Christs true Relligion And therefore correcting himselfe he is faine to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not absurdly distinguishing betweene dulia and latria as your braines crowe but deprecating the scandall which his former words might seeme to imply Where we haue also the gifts and donaries before spoken of offered to God in plaine and direct tearmes not to the Martyrs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For their Master accepts them saies he not they As for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let the Saints pray for vs as much as you will that is nothing to our question of praying to them And yet Theodoret addes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This shewet that their God is the true God Which confirmes what I said in the former Chapter of Mamas spoken of in S. Basil that Deus Mamantis Mamas his God and so here the Martyrs God they are mentioned to this end to shew that the peoples recourse vnto them was not as to certaine fauourites and vnder-officers of the great King to dispence largesses but as worshippers of the same God euen with losse of their dearest blood lately in their life time in whose honourable seruice themselues reioyced and the rather because dignified by such noble partners and fellow-seruants Lastly shewing of what trades and occupations of life diuerse of those Martyrs were while they liued he reckons vp very meane ones not to call them base and concludes thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is Of such men and women consists the Quire of Martyrs Yet Parsons that hell-hound

expresse knowledge of me since I was reuealed to the world For Deus Abraham Isaac was then all in all Henceforth we pray per Christum Dominum or per Christum filium and obtaine our suit in that forme of style As was prophesied long before Psal 60. 16. Adorabunt per eum they shall worship by him or pray by him which then was not performed now is Howbeit Origen not amisse puts them both together hom 7. in Ezech. vpon those words Incensum meum posuistis ante faciem eorum that is idolorum and incensum saies he is Orationes sanctorum out of the Apocal. Incense is prayer Si ergo instituti ad Orationem cum illam Deo debeamus offerre Deo Abraham Deo Isaac Deo Iacob Patri Iesu Christi ijs offerimus quae ipsi confinximus in tantum vt idolis incensum Dei proponamus c. that is If therefore whereas we are taught and trained how to pray we when as we should offer our praiers to God the God of Abraham the God of Isaac the God of Iacob and the Father of Iesus Christ shall offer them to such things as our selues haue deuised insomuch as we set the incense of God before idolls c. Note here three things First prayer is Gods incense as belonging to God onely Incensum Dei est oratio And to that we are trained nurtured and taught Instituti ad hoc And what else saies Origen Quòd debeamus orationem Deo offerre that we must offer our praiers to God not ante faciem eorum not to others Secondly he that offers it to any but God offers it to idolls quae confinximus ipsi which our selues haue deuised Vnlesse we haue warrant for so doing but warrant we haue none God neither giuing vs nor meaning to giue vs any As Tiberius forbad the Romanes to erect any Temple or image to him Nisi ego permittam adding immediatly Atqui ego non permittam that is vnlesse I licence you now I neuer meane to licence you You are Idolaters therefore you cannot auoide it though they bee Saints that you pray to vnlesse you can shewe a reuocation of Gods minde in this behalfe vnder his owne hand Thirdly the coniunction of Deus Abraham with Pater Christi the new Testament with the old Though now the former of these two resolues into the latter the God of Abraham into the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ in whome alone we must put our trust concerning the graunting of our praiers Your selues doe not much mention Abraham amongst the Saints nor Isaac nor Iacob which shewes their names were not put for meritorious but onely formall or legall as vpon whom went the promise which now in Christ alone is yea and amen that is perfectly perfect § 41. To returne to your method So for Dauids sake 1. King 11. God abated his wrath towards Salomon you say But Salomon neuer prayed to his Father Dauid in such a manner after he was dead How then God hauing promised in Dauids life time that he would not destroy his children though they transgressed his Lawes but onely chastice them with the scourge of men verifies this vpon Salomon now by force of his promise so made to Dauid What gather ye from hence Is it not lawfull to vrge God with his promise vnlesse we pray to the Saints As for Dauids diuinitie it was cleane otherwise No man may deliuer his brothers soule Psal 49. and Psal 6. In inferno quis confitebitur tibi Besides that Christ is often called Dauid in the old Testament as Suscitabo eis Dauid Regem ipsorum Ierem. 30. id est Christum saith Theodoret vpon that place and the holy things of Dauid Act. 13. And the Keyes of Dauid Apocal. 3. 7. who is that but Christ § 42. Moses and Paul their sauing diuers hundreths or one of them hundred thousands by their intercessions in their life time neither argues their particular intercession for vs now they are dead servierunt enim saeculo suo to speake with S. Peter and much lesse the lawfulnes of our recourse to them The like of Iob of others that you bring may be said Baruch me thinkes properly Bar. 4. 21. Clamabo ad altissimum in diebus meis I will crie to the most high in my dayes that is whiles I liue Meaning he should haue no place of doing so after death As S. Peter saies of preaching 2. Pet. 1. 13. and S. Paul also Phil. 1. 23. who else needed not to haue been in a strayte if after death he might haue succoured his people § 43. In your 59. Num. you bewray your selfe The ability of Saints to help men say you is to be ascribed not onely to the effect of their prayers but also to their power authority and dignity You fly then to the Saints as to the giuers of those things out of their power and authority which you aske in prayer not onely as suters to God for them in your behalfe What more grosse idolatry can there be then this Is not this that that you were wont to disclaime Where is now per Christum Dominum nostrum § 44. Well Num. 61. hauing talked your pleasure of the practise of Christs Church of the consent of antiquity of the custome of all ages c. at last you bethinke your selfe how all this will goe for currant when you shall come to a reckoning The Bishop say you will oppose to this effect that the authorities brought faile both in time as being later by 300 yeares then the challenge was and in vniforme consent for others also must be heard to speake as well as they if any thing will be done Yet you comfort your selfe thus that his MAIESTIE professeth to reuerence the Fathers more then euer the Iesuites did and yet they reuerence them all after the three first to many ages downward Who doubts but his MAIESTIE reuerences the Fathers both for infinite good that may be gotten by the reading of them and namely towards the discerning of the truth of points euen now controuerted in relligion though still with submission of his iudgement to holy Scripture and also reuerenceth them more by much then the Iesuits doe though the Iesuits happily reuerence more fathers then he For what pedaneous author haue not they made a father of Ye may say with him cōsidering their falsifications in this kinde Mutauit calceos pater conscriptus repentè factus est Nay now euerie Iesuite is a Father at first dash whether he write or no. And though his MAIESTIE hath dispensed so much with his height as by writing his Apology to encounter with them that are no Kings yet he will neuer be tried by them that are no Fathers And therefore you guesse well when you thinke you shall bee forced to looke farther backeward then you haue done yet if you well euict any thing It is true also that the Bishop saies although it anger you of the Cardinall that hee