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A14368 A stronge battery against the idolatrous inuocation of the dead saintes, and against the hauyng or setting up of images in the house of prayer, or in any other place where there is any paril of idolatrye, made dialoguewise by Iohn Veron VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1562 (1562) STC 24686; ESTC S102670 105,295 264

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in all our nedes troubles and aduersities to flye vnto our heauenly Father for healpe aide and succour withoute spendyng our labour in vayne in seekyng mediators aduocates and intercessors Chriso de profectu euangelii Tomo 6 ▪ Non opus est saithe Chrysostome multis patronis apud Deū neque multo discursu vt blandiare aliis sed licet solus sis patronoque careas per te ipsum Deum precetis omnino tamen voti compos eris Neque enim tam facile Deus annuit cum alii pro nobis orant vt cum ipsimet oramus otiā si plurimis plene simus malis That is to say we haue no neede of many aduocates before God neyther of muche gaddyng about for to flatter and speake fayre vnto other For althoughe thou be alone and want an aduocate and pray vnto God by thy selfe thou shalt doutlesse obteyn thy request For God doth not so easily heare vs when other doo pray for vs as whē we pray our selues althoughe we bee full of many sinnes And again in the same Omelie O woman Math. 15. greate is thy faithe Thou seest saith he how the woman that was vnworthie was by hir importunate callyng made woorthie Wilte thou also learne that prayeng by our selues we obteyne more at goddes handes then when other do praye for vs She cryed after Christ and the disciples came vnto hym saying Sende her away for she crieth after vs. And vnto theym he sayd I am not sente but vnto the loste shepe of the house of Israel But whā she came her selfe perseuered crying out and saying Lord doo not the lyttle whelpes fede of the crummes that fall from their masters boord he granted vnto her the benefit that she wold haue and saide Let it be doone vnto thee as thou wilt Thou seest how she had the repulse whā other praied but when she came her self praying for the gyft he dyd graunt it Vnto theim he dyd say I am not sent but vnto the lost shepe of the house of Israell But vnto her Greate is thy faithe saith he let it be doone vnto thee as thou wilt These are Chrysostomes wordes neither can the ennemies answere ought to these playn textes Albion Obiect 5 Heb. 12. And shall we haue no mediators aduocates or intercessors at all Doth not saint Paul write thus Euen our God is a consumyng fyre and dwelleth in the lyghte that none can attayne vnto Who dareth then knowyng hymselfe to bee a synnefull creature approche or come nere vnto hym Shall not he that presumeth to do so be cōsumed to nought Philalethes In deede brother Albion forasmuch as God is a consumyng fire Answer and dwelleth in the lyght that no man can attayne vnto VVhy the son of god did take vpon him our fraile nature wee haue nede of a mediator but not of mediators And the same mediator is the onely begottē sonne of GOD oure sauiour Iesus Christ who that he myght be our only and omnisufficient Sauior and also the onely mediator betwixte GOD and vs dyd vouchesafe to take vppon hym our fraile nature Without hym can we haue no accesse vnto that burnyng and consumyng fyre 1 Timo 2. nor haue any felowshyp with God And of this omnisufficient and only mediator the holy Apostle writeth on this maner There is one God and one mediator betwixte GOD and manne whiche is that manne Christe Iesus who gaue hymselfe a raunsome for all men Albion They confesse The cauill of the papistes that Christe is the onelye mediatour betwixt God and manne But howe ought this to be vnderstanded Christe saye they is the onelye Mediator of redemption but not of intercession For as he onely hathe redeemed vs and by his deathe and bloodde sheaddynge he hathe made attonemente betwyxte god and vs Ansvver to the cauill so the blessed virgin Mary and other holy Saintes in heauen are mediators of intercession prayeng for vs vnto God the father and to his son Iesus Christe our Lorde and Sauior Phil●lethes I wold fayne know where they learne this in the scriptures and word of God Fyrst Paul in the place that we alleadged last doothe plainely shew that there can be no mediator None can be our mediatour except he be also out redemer except he bee a redeemer also But they graunt that Christ only hath redemed vs. Whereby it foloweth that Christe only is a mediator And so the scriptures appoynt hym I meane to be oure mediator aduocate intercessor euen after his glorious resurrectiō ascencion when he had alredy by his death bloodshedyng fully reconciled God vn to vs Roma 8. For thus doothe saincte Paule write It is Christe which is dead yea rather which is risen agayne whiche is also on the right hande of God and maketh intercession for vs. Heb. 7. And in an other place Emong them sayth he many were made priests because they were not suffered to endure by the reson of death But this man because he endureth for euer hath an euerlasting priesthode Wherefore he is able also perfectly to saue them that come vnto God by hym seeyng he euer lyueth to make intercession for vs. In this texte haue we many goodly lessons set forth vnto vs for sith he hath an euerlasting priesthoode they muste needes confesse that they bee all moste shamefull blasphemors that either make themselues his successors or pretend any other sacrifice than he hymselfe offered ones foreuer vppon the aultar of the crosse And shewyng the fruites of this euerlastyng priesthode he saithe that he is able by reason of it to saue fully and to the vttermost all those that come vnto god by him ▪ where we lerne who they he V●hom our sauiour Iesus Christe vvil saue Iohn 14. whom our sauior Iesus Christ wil saue euē those the seke to com vnto god by him Whiche agreeth well with that which he sayth him selfe in Iohn where he speaketh those wordes I am the waye the truthe and the life No man commeth vnto the father but by me They than that seke to come vnto God by any other meane or waye than by our sauior Iesus Christe can looke for no saluation at his hands In what case then are al those that by the dead saintes do seke to come to God But this ought to be most cōfortable of al wher he saith Hebr 9. that Christ lyueth for euer to make intercession for vs. Wherevnto may be added 1 Iohn 2. that Christ is entred into heauen for to appeare in the sight of God for vs. Again saith the holy euangelist sainte Iohn If any man synne wee haue an aduocate with the father Iesus Christ the rightuous and he is the satisfaction for our sinnes Where besides al other doctrines we do lerne that Christ is our onely aduocate and attonement maker For the office of intercession and redemption ar so iointly ioigned together out of this present life the mediation or intercession
and Chaldeis whiche were Cains or Cainites that the same heresy did deny the resurrection of the fleshe Hierom contra Vigilantium Hierome doth that Vigilan● vvith many heresies but how timely ye shall after vvardes knovve And therfore Hierome sayeth Mortuum suspicaris ideirco blasphemas Lege euangelium Deus Abraham Deus Isaac Deus Iacob non est deus mortuorum sed viuentium Thou doest saieth he suspecte that he is deade and therfore doest thou blaspheme Reade the gospell The God of Abraham the god of Isaac and the god of Iacob He is not the GOD of the deade but of the liuyng Againe doth he not charge him with the heresy of the Eunomiās hys words are these Rides de reliquis martyrum cum autore huius haereseos Eunomio ecclesus Christi calumniam struis nec tali societate terreris vt cadem contra nos loquaris qux illè contra Ecclesiam loquitur Omnes enim sectatores cius Basilicas Apostolorum martyrum non ingrediuntur vt scilicet mortuum adorent Eunomium cuius libros maioris autoritatis arbitrantur quam euangelia That is to saye dooest thou make a laughynge stocke of the relykes of the martyres and wyth the auctoure of thys heresy Cunomius brynge a calumnie or sclaunder vppon the churches of CHRISTE neyther arte thou frayed wyth suche felowshyppe that thou dareste speake the same agaynste vs that he speaketh agaynste the Churche For all hys dysciples or sectatoures and folowers doo not enter into the churches of the martyres and Apostelles that so they maye worshyppe Eunomius beeynge deade whose bookes they dooe iudge to gee of greater auctority than the Gospelles Yf these thynges bee true small credyte Answer oughte to bee geuen vnto hym PHILALETHES And I wonder and meruaylle that thys holye Father durste saye any suche thynge to Vigilantius charge Hovv falsly Hierom d●i laye those heresies to Vigilantius charge For as touchynge the fyrst Vigilantius neuer denyed the resurrection or rysynge agayne of the fleshe nor yet the Saluacion of the same but dydde onelye resyste the superstitious worshyppynge of it in the dead creatures Dothe he I pray you denie the resurrection of the flesh that doth forbyd the superstitious worshipping of it Sai●● August●● ▪ 〈◊〉 heresies of the C● 〈…〉 Saint Augustin in his boke of heresies saith that the Caines were smitten with suche blyndenesse that they worshipped that wicked man Cain and Hierome is not ashamed to call them Cainites whiche will not worship men nor the bones of men This foule name oughte rather to bee geuen vnto them that teach and maintaine the idolatrous woorshypping of dead men Eunomius and 〈…〉 Nowe as touchyng the seconde Eunomius was a greate portion of Arrius and therfore he did deny the diuinitie or godheade of Christe wherof it came to passe that he did vtterly despise the testimonies of the Apostles and martyrs whiche they hare vnto our sauior Iesu Christ yea he contemned also the bodies of the sainctes and the miracles that vertue of Christ dyd worke about theim for a testimonie and profe of his godhead He had written bokes against Christ The d●●●rence is 〈◊〉 and dyd attribute the miracles of the holy Apostles vnto the power of Sathan But Vigilantius dyd neither deny the godhead or Christ ●ilantius ●nd ●uno ●●s nor yet dyd in any wise contemne the bodies of the saintes nor the miracles that were wrought and done about them as Eunomius accordynge to his damnable heresie had doon but he did teache to worship one God whō the martyrs did preach and whervnto the myracles that were wrought did leade vs how beit he did catholikely forbidde that the bones of the dead should in no wise be worshipped and yet beyng of so an vpright and sounde iudgement he is of Hierome most shamefully condemned of heresy though he coulde not be ignorant that there was great difference betwixt the faith and religion of Vigilantius and the abhominable heresy of Eunomius Where ●●e o●e ●●d ●●ara● the ●tick that ●e 〈◊〉 against ●i●i●antius Eutrapelus This had Hierom learned of his Rhetoricians which do teache that we muste with odious names and titles vrge them whome we can not ouercome with iust argumentes Philalethes All men I truste doo well s●t ▪ what weake argumentes Hierome did bring and how that he dyd wrongfully burden Vigilantius with the heresy of the Cainites and of Eunomius sith that he did both cōfesse Christ his diuinity and godhead and also the resurrection or risyng agayne of the fleshe Therefore fearynge nothyng suche odions titles and names that the enemies of the truthe bee wont to defame vs with all lette vs attribute more to the insallible testimonies of the scriptures then to the weake reasons argumentes either of Hierome or of any other besydes thoughe he were an aungell that came downe frome heauen sithe that in the mattiers of religyon we ought to beleue or credite no manne bicause that he is either lerned or holy but bicause that he doth strongly proue by the vndoubted and infallible tertes and authorities of the scriptures the thyng that he doothe take in hande to teache Nothing is here spok● in the dispraise of Hierome I haue not spoken this of any affection or in the dispraise of that holy father but in the defence of the truthe and for the edifying or profite of the faithfull congregation I gladdely always acknowledge and reuerēce in hym the excellente gyftes of GOD but in the meane whyle wee doe also confesse that he dydde as man write and sette foorth many thynges which we can not with a safe conscience receaue or allowe Albion Obie 13 Cypri li●e pi prima Thus I am sure doth the holy martyr S. Cypriā write in his Epi. 10 Corneliꝰ Memores nostri inuicē simꝰ cōcorders atque vnanimes vtrobique pro nobis semp oremꝰ pressuras angustias mutua charitate releuemus si quis hinc nostrum prior diuinae dignationis celeritate praecesserit perseueret apud Deum nostra dilectio pro fratribus sorotibus nostris apud misericordiam patris non cesset oratio That is to say Lette vs be myndefull one of an other and beyng of one heart mynde both where lette vs always praye for eche other and with mutuall charitie and loue releue our afflictions and troubles or anguysshes And if any of vs doo by the diuine callyng of God or by the celeritie or quicknesse of his diuine dignation wille or pleasure departe hence afore ●ette oure loue perseuere or continue with God and our prayer in no wyse ceasse vnto the mercye of GOD for oure bretherne and sisters whyles they are here These wordes of the holy martyr do plainlye testify that the deade Saints do praye for vs Answer Cyp●● de lapsis as longe as we bee here in this vale of miserye Phila. None can better make aunswer to that whiche ye haue aleaged than Cyprian him self