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aforesaid_a mounseur_fw-fr plessis_n against_o the_o mass_n action_n which_o book_n make_v show_n as_o the_o fashion_n be_v of_o great_a abundance_n and_o ostentation_n of_o father_n counsel_n doctor_n and_o story_n for_o his_o purpose_n great_a admiration_n seem_v to_o be_v conceive_v thereof_o and_o the_o protestant_n every_o where_o begin_v to_o triumph_v of_o so_o famous_a a_o work_n publish_v in_o their_o behalf_n whereupon_o diverse_a catholic_a learned_a man_n take_v occasion_n present_o to_o examine_v the_o say_a book_n &_o find_v many_o most_o egregious_a deceyt_v shift_n and_o falsification_n therein_o diverse_a book_n be_v write_v against_o it_o &_o one_o in_o particular_a by_o a_o french_a burdeg_n jesuite_n discover_v at_o least_o a_o thousand_o falsehood_n of_o his_o part_n all_o the_o preacher_n of_o paris_n in_o like_a manner_n
that_o some_o old_a heathen_a writer_n do_v use_v they_o so_o yet_o the_o ecclesiastical_a use_n thereof_o both_o in_o scripture_n &_o ancient_a father_n do_v always_o distinguish_v most_o exact_o these_o 2._o word_n as_o for_o example_n it_o can_v never_o be_v find_v either_o in_o scripture_n or_o ancient_a father_n that_o the_o word_n idol_n be_v take_v in_o good_a part_n as_o image_n be_v nor_o that_o they_o do_v ever_o call_v the_o cherubin_n 1â—_n and_o other_o image_n in_o the_o temple_n of_o jerusalem_n idol_n nor_o do_v the_o scripture_n call_v man_n the_o idol_n of_o god_n but_o the_o image_n of_o god_n nor_o do_v ever_o any_o christian_a writer_n dare_v to_o speak_v otherwise_o nor_o to_o call_v our_o saviour_n the_o idol_n of_o his_o father_n but_o only_o the_o image_n of_o his_o father_n and_o other_o like_a example_n whereby_o be_v evident_a that_o both_o the_o scripture_n and_o holy_a father_n do_v observe_v a_o strict_a distinction_n betwixt_o these_o word_n and_o heerupon_o be_v there_o spend_v some_o time_n in_o certain_a vain_a reply_n use_v by_o plessis_n but_o no_o one_o example_n can_v he_o give_v out_o of_o the_o scripture_n to_o the_o contrary_a nor_o yet_o out_o of_o any_o father_n to_o this_o purpose_n and_o on_o the_o other_o side_n the_o bishop_n press_v he_o with_o the_o word_n of_o theodorete_n exod._n himself_o in_o his_o question_n upon_o exodus_fw-la where_o he_o set_v down_o express_o the_o difference_n between_o idol_n and_o image_n and_o beside_o this_o that_o in_o his_o ecclesiastical_a greek_a history_n of_o the_o life_n of_o father_n call_v the_o religious_a history_n he_o recount_v in_o the_o life_n of_o saint_n symeon_n stilites_fw-la that_o the_o christian_a roman_n in_o his_o time_n do_v set_v up_o image_n for_o devotion_n to_o the_o say_a stilite_n and_o thereby_o procure_v to_o themselves_o both_o safeguard_n and_o protection_n as_o the_o author_n word_n be_v whereof_o the_o bishop_n infer_v that_o for_o so_o much_o as_o theodorete_n do_v praise_v the_o roman_n for_o this_o act_n it_o can_v be_v imagine_v that_o he_o hold_v image_n to_o be_v the_o same_o that_o idol_n which_o before_o he_o so_o much_o detest_v in_o the_o place_n here_o allege_v by_o mounseur_fw-fr plessis_n for_o that_o so_o he_o shall_v praise_v the_o roman_n for_o idolatry_n here_o the_o deputye_n call_v for_o theodorete_n in_o greek_a pâ—essis_n &_o examine_v the_o place_n of_o stilites_fw-la &_o find_v it_o true_a as_o the_o bishop_n have_v allege_v &_o plessis_n have_v no_o other_o refuge_n leave_v but_o to_o say_v that_o these_o image_n of_o stilite_n be_v not_o put_v up_o in_o church_n but_o the_o bishop_n reply_v that_o to_o be_v of_o no_o importance_n whether_o they_o be_v or_o no_o for_o if_o they_o be_v idol_n they_o be_v unlawful_a also_o in_o private_a house_n and_o consequent_o theodorete_n will_v not_o have_v praise_v they_o but_o yet_o to_o show_v that_o in_o that_o time_n also_o of_o theodorete_n &_o before_o christian_a image_n be_v accustom_v to_o be_v set_v up_o religious_o in_o church_n the_o bishop_n allege_v many_o place_n out_o of_o s._n barlâ—am_n basill_n s._n theod._n gregory_n nissen_n 52._o photius_n cassiano_n prudentius_n sulpit_n paulinus_n and_o other_o which_o text_n be_v there_o bring_v forth_o read_v and_o allow_v and_o all_o this_o end_v he_o require_v monsieur_n plessis_n to_o confess_v this_o first_o abuse_n against_o theodoretes_n own_o meaning_n and_o to_o answer_v to_o the_o second_o why_o he_o have_v leave_v out_o those_o word_n that_o declare_v his_o meaning_n to_o wit_n idol_n adore_v by_o the_o pagan_n and_o adore_v for_o god_n he_o answer_v that_o he_o have_v leave_v they_o out_o for_o brevitye_n sake_n and_o have_v set_v down_o only_o the_o substantial_a clause_n of_o theodoretes_n text_n but_o the_o bishop_n reply_v that_o this_o brevity_n be_v not_o commendable_a and_o that_o the_o clause_n leave_v out_o be_v the_o most_o substantial_a of_o all_o the_o rest_n for_o declaringe_v the_o truth_n and_o theodoretes_n meaning_n in_o the_o matter_n in_o hand_n plessis_n answer_v plessis_n that_o it_o appertain_v not_o to_o his_o purpose_n to_o allege_v those_o word_n the_o bishop_n say_v that_o it_o do_v if_o his_o purpose_n be_v to_o deal_v plain_o &_o to_o have_v the_o truth_n know_v then_o fall_v plessis_n to_o his_o old_a refuge_n and_o say_v that_o he_o have_v not_o allege_v the_o foresaid_a text_n of_o theodorete_n direct_o against_o image_n but_o indirect_o and_o by_o a_o certain_a analogy_n or_o consequence_n which_o the_o bishop_n refute_v and_o final_o after_o all_o he_o demand_v judgement_n upon_o the_o place_n and_o upon_o both_o the_o two_o corruption_n object_v which_o after_o diligent_a revew_n of_o the_o place_n in_o theodorete_n and_o advise_v take_v of_o all_o the_o deputye_n the_o lord_n chancellor_n pronounce_v in_o all_o their_o name_n in_o these_o word_n 105._o que_fw-fr ce_fw-fr passage_n ne_fw-fr se_fw-fr devoit_n entendre_fw-fr que_fw-fr des_fw-fr idol_n des_fw-fr payens_fw-fr &_o non_fw-fr des_fw-fr image_n de_fw-fr chrestiens_fw-la comme_fw-fr il_fw-fr paroissoit_fw-fr par_fw-fr ces_fw-fr mots_fw-fr adorn_v par_fw-fr les_fw-fr payens_fw-fr &_o adorée_n pour_v dieux_fw-fr que_fw-fr avoient_fw-fr esté_fw-fr obmis_fw-fr which_o be_v to_o say_v that_o this_o passage_n of_o theodoret_n must_v be_v understand_v of_o painim_n idol_n and_o not_o of_o christian_a image_n as_o be_v plain_a by_o the_o word_n adore_v by_o paynim_n and_o adore_v for_o god_n which_o be_v leave_v out_o by_o which_o sentence_n give_v also_o by_o his_o own_o man_n he_o remain_v condemn_v as_o you_o see_v of_o both_o the_o falsitye_n object_v at_o the_o begin_v by_o the_o bishop_n and_o here_o now_o it_o be_v upon_o the_o point_n of_o seven_o of_o the_o clock_n at_o night_n the_o k._n dismiss_v the_o company_n for_o that_o time_n and_o remit_v the_o continuation_n of_o the_o same_o conference_n to_o begin_v again_o the_o next_o day_n at_o seven_o of_o the_o clock_n in_o the_o morning_n day_n &_o to_o endure_v until_o a_o eleven_o and_o then_o again_o after_o dinner_n from_o one_o to_o six_o and_o so_o forward_o until_o all_o the_o place_n may_v be_v examine_v and_o the_o same_o be_v agree_v unto_o by_o all_o the_o rest_n and_o present_o the_o bishop_n of_o â—ureux_fw-fr cause_v all_o the_o book_n to_o be_v carry_v to_o the_o house_n of_o mounseur_fw-fr du_fw-fr plessis_n to_o prepare_v himself_o in_o the_o other_o passage_n that_o be_v to_o be_v examine_v the_o day_n follow_v what_o happen_v after_o the_o end_n of_o this_o first_o day_n conference_n of_o monsieur_n plessis_n his_o demeanour_n and_o departure_n of_o the_o book_n he_o send_v forth_o for_o his_o excuse_n and_o what_o success_n have_v ensue_v of_o man_n conversion_n thereupon_o chap._n iii_o as_o soon_o as_o the_o k._n majesty_n be_v depart_v from_o the_o place_n of_o conference_n every_o man_n begin_v to_o talk_v &_o reason_n of_o that_o which_o have_v pass_v but_o especial_o those_o that_o have_v expect_v without_o in_o other_o chamber_n and_o galerye_n round_o about_o and_o in_o the_o k._n garden_n beneath_o and_o can_v get_v no_o place_n within_o the_o chamber_n where_o the_o conference_n be_v hold_v these_o i_o say_v as_o well_o catholik_o as_o protestant_n press_v great_o to_o know_v what_o have_v be_v do_v &_o what_o have_v be_v the_o issue_n of_o that_o trial_n and_o so_o earnest_a suit_n be_v make_v unto_o the_o secretarye_n for_o copy_n of_o the_o sentence_n as_o that_o very_a night_n they_o be_v give_v abroad_o in_o write_v contain_v as_o before_o you_o have_v hear_v to_o wit_n that_o upon_o the_o first_o 2._o place_n of_o scotus_n and_o durandus_fw-la the_o sentence_n be_v that_o monsieur_n plessis_n have_v take_v the_o objection_n for_o the_o resolution_n upon_o the_o second_o place_n of_o s._n chrysostome_n that_o he_o have_v leave_v out_o that_o which_o he_o shall_v have_v put_v in_o sentence_n upon_o the_o five_o place_n of_o s._n hierome_n that_o he_o ought_v to_o have_v allege_v the_o passage_n entire_a as_o it_o be_v in_o the_o author_n upon_o the_o six_o place_n of_o s._n cyrill_n that_o the_o passage_n allege_v out_o of_o s._n cyrill_n be_v not_o to_o be_v find_v in_o he_o upon_o the_o 7._o place_n out_o of_o the_o emperor_n theodofius_fw-la and_o valens_n that_o plessis_n have_v allege_v true_o crinitus_n but_o that_o crinitus_n be_v abuse_v upon_o the_o 8._o place_n out_o of_o s._n bernard_n that_o it_o have_v be_v well_o plessis_n have_v cite_v the_o place_n distinct_o as_o it_o lay_v in_o the_o author_n without_o cuttinge_v of_o any_o thing_n in_o the_o midst_n and_o final_o upon_o the_o 9_o place_n out_o of_o theodorete_n against_o image_n that_o the_o passage_n allege_v be_v not_o to_o be_v understand_v of_o image_n but_o of_o idol_n and_o that_o this_o appear_v by_o the_o word_n which_o
plessis_n do_v before_o but_o how_o do_v he_o go_v about_o think_v you_o to_o prove_v that_o scotus_n in_o his_o resolution_n touchinge_v the_o real_a presence_n do_v hold_v the_o same_o that_o in_o his_o objection_n against_o it_o you_o shall_v hear_v his_o own_o word_n immediate_o follow_v in_o the_o same_o matter_n ibid._n nay_o say_v he_o scotus_n seem_v rather_o to_o dislike_v transubstantiation_n then_o otherwise_o behold_v here_o the_o true_a dealing_v of_o m._n sutkliffe_n who_o give_v we_o quid_fw-la pro_fw-la quo_fw-la as_o apothecaryes_n be_v wont_a he_o shall_v have_v prove_v that_o scotus_n determine_v in_o his_o resolution_n against_o the_o real_a presence_n and_o now_o he_o say_v that_o scotus_n seem_v rather_o to_o dislike_v transubstantiation_n then_o otherwise_o so_o as_o for_o the_o real_a presence_n quo_fw-la here_o be_v thrust_v in_o transubstantiation_n and_o for_o determination_n and_o resolution_n be_v shuffle_v in_o a_o seeminge_v to_o dislike_v rather_o than_o otherwise_o be_v there_o ever_o any_o such_o good_a apothecary_n that_o give_v quid_fw-la pro_fw-la quo_fw-la and_o if_o here_o to_o help_v himself_o out_o he_o will_v say_v that_o the_o real_a presence_n and_o transubstantiation_n be_v all_o one_o controversy_n he_o impugn_v himself_o in_o the_o very_a next_o place_n of_o durand_n as_o you_o shall_v see_v when_o we_o come_v to_o it_o where_o he_o affirm_v durand_n to_o hold_v and_o it_o be_v true_a and_o scotus_n hold_v the_o same_o also_o that_o the_o real_a presence_n of_o christ_n body_n in_o the_o sacrament_n may_v have_v be_v by_o other_o mean_n then_o by_o transubstantiation_n if_o god_n will_v have_v have_v it_o so_o and_o consequent_o be_v distinct_a thing_n and_o hereof_o also_o i_o do_v convince_v o._n e._n of_o another_o false_a trick_n of_o thrustinge_v in_o the_o word_n by_o transubstantiation_n a_o little_a before_o in_o recytinge_v the_o question_n of_o scotus_n which_o be_v not_o in_o sâ—otus_n himself_o nor_o in_o his_o word_n more_o true_o allege_v in_o this_o behalf_n by_o plessis_n as_o before_o you_o may_v see_v for_o that_o scotus_n question_n be_v whether_o christ_n body_n be_v real_o contain_v under_o the_o form_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n dealing_v and_o this_o fellow_n propose_v it_o thus_o whether_o christ_n body_n be_v real_o by_o transubstantiation_n contain_v etc._n etc._n and_o this_o to_o the_o end_n he_o may_v deceive_v his_o reader_n as_o here_o he_o do_v by_o leapinge_v from_o the_o one_o to_o the_o other_o when_o he_o be_v press_v or_o gaul_v whereas_o scotus_n do_v handle_v these_o two_o controversy_n of_o the_o real_a presence_n and_o transubstantiation_n as_o different_a and_o distinct_a thing_n not_o only_o in_o sundry_a question_n but_o in_o sundry_a distinction_n also_o to_o wit_n the_o first_o in_o the_o ten_o the_o second_o in_o the_o eleven_o distinction_n upon_o the_o master_n of_o the_o sentence_n so_o as_o here_o i_o must_v represent_v unto_o you_o the_o boldness_n or_o ignorance_n of_o o._n e._n to_o exceed_v much_o that_o of_o master_n plessis_n his_o client_n and_o thus_o much_o of_o the_o controversy_n about_o the_o real_a presence_n but_o now_o lest_o you_o may_v think_v he_o have_v somewhat_o more_o to_o say_v to_o prove_v scotus_n to_o be_v against_o transubstantiation_n then_o against_o the_o real_a presence_n how_o for_o that_o he_o so_o leap_v from_o the_o one_o to_o the_o other_o let_v we_o hear_v his_o argument_n though_o you_o must_v note_v by_o the_o way_n his_o nice_a assertion_n in_o say_v that_o scotus_n seem_v rather_o to_o dislike_v transubstantiation_n then_o otherwise_o and_o his_o argument_n be_v two_o objection_n of_o scotus_n against_o transubstantiation_n as_o the_o other_o be_v before_o against_o the_o real_a presence_n the_o first_o objection_n objection_n of_o scotus_n against_o himself_o be_v for_o that_o bread_n together_o with_o his_o accident_n or_o species_n do_v more_o represent_v unto_o we_o the_o nature_n of_o spiritual_a food_n without_o transubstantiation_n than_o the_o bare_a accident_n by_o and_o after_o transubstantiation_n ergo_fw-la the_o nature_n of_o the_o encharist_n in_o this_o respect_n of_o nourishment_n may_v have_v be_v conserve_v though_o god_n have_v not_o appoint_v transubstantiation_n but_o his_o body_n to_o have_v be_v together_o with_o the_o substance_n of_o bread_n which_o argument_n you_o see_v make_v against_o the_o alleager_v o._n e._n flat_o for_o that_o it_o prove_v the_o real_a presence_n and_o transubstantiation_n to_o be_v distinct_a thing_n and_o that_o the_o one_o may_v have_v be_v without_o the_o other_o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v foolish_o bring_v by_o o._n e._n see_v it_o be_v not_o only_o a_o objection_n and_o no_o resolution_n but_o also_o a_o objection_n that_o impugn_v his_o assertion_n the_o second_o objection_n objection_n of_o scotus_n against_o transubstantiation_n isâ—_n that_o in_o misterye_n of_o our_o faith_n that_o interpretation_n seem_v most_o to_o be_v admit_v which_o require_v least_o miracle_n for_o maintayninge_v thereof_o but_o few_o miracle_n seem_v to_o be_v require_v without_o transubstantiation_n then_o with_o transubstantiation_n ergo_fw-la we_o shall_v rather_o admit_v the_o reality_n of_o christ_n body_n together_o with_o bread_n without_o transubstantiation_n than_o the_o same_o body_n with_o only_a accident_n of_o bread_n by_o transubstantiation_n these_o be_v two_o objection_n among_o other_o make_v by_o scotus_n against_o transubstantiation_n above_o fifty_o leaf_n after_o his_o former_a objection_n against_o the_o real_a presence_n which_o objection_n after_o his_o resolution_n set_v down_o for_o transubstantiation_n he_o answer_v &_o solve_v begin_v thus_o ad_fw-la argumenta_fw-la etc._n etc._n now_o must_v we_o answer_v the_o argument_n make_v to_o the_o contrary_a etc._n etc._n but_o yet_o about_o the_o first_o objection_n he_o repeat_v again_o dico_fw-la quod_fw-la bené_fw-fr fuisset_fw-la deo_fw-la possibile_fw-la instituisse_fw-la 3._o quod_fw-la corpus_fw-la verè_fw-la esset_fw-la praesens_fw-la substantia_fw-la panis_fw-la manente_fw-la etc._n etc._n i_o say_v that_o if_o god_n will_v he_o have_v be_v well_o able_a to_o have_v appoint_v his_o body_n to_o have_v be_v present_a in_o the_o sacrament_n together_o with_o the_o substance_n of_o bread_n without_o transubstantiation_n etc._n etc._n but_o have_v appoint_v otherwise_o as_o appear_v by_o the_o declaration_n of_o the_o church_n we_o be_v not_o to_o respect_v more_o or_o few_o miracle_n etc._n etc._n and_o hence_o now_o you_o see_v that_o o._n e._n endeavoringe_v to_o deliver_v plessis_n from_o the_o shame_n of_o cytinge_n scotus_n his_o objection_n for_o his_o resolution_n in_o the_o controversy_n of_o the_o real_a presence_n himself_o bring_v forth_o tow_v more_o objection_n for_o resolution_n without_o see_v the_o shame_n thereof_o about_o the_o article_n of_o transubstantiation_n 12._o yea_o &_o further_o blush_v not_o to_o infer_v thereupon_o this_o conclusion_n that_o scotus_n plain_o mislike_v that_o interpretation_n that_o without_o diverse_a miracle_n can_v be_v maintain_v etc._n etc._n lie_n and_o that_o albeit_o he_o be_v content_a to_o subscribe_v to_o the_o pope_n determination_n &_o dare_v not_o do_v otherwise_o yet_o that_o he_o himselse_n think_v otherwise_o etc._n etc._n o_o jesus_n what_o shall_v a_o man_n say_v of_o these_o manner_n of_o people_n let_v we_o hear_v scotus_n his_o own_o word_n in_o the_o same_o place_n where_o he_o talk_v of_o the_o church_n determination_n &_o exposition_n of_o scripture_n for_o this_o point_n of_o transubstantiation_n dico_fw-la say_v he_o quod_fw-la eo_fw-la spiritu_fw-la expositae_fw-la sunt_fw-la scripturae_fw-la quo_fw-la conditae_fw-la 3._o &_o ita_fw-la supponendum_fw-la est_fw-la quod_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la catholica_fw-la eo_fw-la spiritu_fw-la exposuit_fw-la quo_fw-la tradita_fw-la est_fw-la nobis_fw-la fides_fw-la spiritu_fw-la scilicet_fw-la veritatis_fw-la etc._n etc._n i_o do_v day_n that_o the_o scripture_n be_v expound_v by_o the_o same_o spirit_n by_o which_o they_o be_v write_v and_o so_o we_o must_v suppose_v that_o the_o catholic_a church_n have_v expound_v they_o unto_o we_o to_o wit_n the_o scripture_n that_o concern_v this_o mystery_n of_o transubstantiation_n with_o that_o spirit_n wherewith_o our_o faith_n be_v deliver_v unto_o we_o that_o be_v to_o say_v by_o the_o spirit_n of_o truth_n etc._n etc._n lo_o here_o scotus_n found_v the_o truth_n of_o transubstantiation_n not_o upon_o the_o pope_n determination_n or_o upon_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n only_o as_o false_o o._n e._n charge_v he_o but_o upon_o the_o truth_n of_o scripture_n expound_v by_o the_o church_n with_o the_o same_o spirit_n of_o truth_n whereby_o they_o be_v write_v and_o consequent_o be_v far_o of_o from_o plain_o mislikinge_v this_o interpretation_n as_o o._n e._n affirm_v but_o for_o that_o among_o other_o argument_n scotus_n name_v the_o determination_n of_o the_o church_n the_o calumniator_n that_o can_v not_o abide_v the_o word_n charge_v he_o present_o to_o be_v move_v only_o with_o that_o reason_n what_o will_v he_o have_v
after_o for_o in_o this_o place_n he_o say_v no_o more_o but_o neither_o do_v caluyn_n say_v he_o nor_o any_o of_o these_o father_n mention_n either_o the_o use_n of_o the_o apostle_n or_o practice_v of_o the_o ancient_a church_n nor_o do_v any_o father_n speak_v of_o all_o these_o ceremony_n together_o nor_o can_v the_o practice_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n in_o the_o sign_n and_o form_n of_o these_o ceremony_n be_v justify_v by_o father_n lo_o here_o 3._o or_o 4._o hole_n open_v to_o run_v out_o at_o at_o first_o that_o albeit_o caluyn_n confess_v these_o ceremony_n to_o be_v very_o ancient_a and_o that_o the_o foresay_a old_a father_n and_o doctor_n do_v mention_v they_o in_o their_o write_n yet_o do_v they_o not_o mention_v the_o use_n of_o the_o apostle_n or_o practice_v of_o the_o ancient_a church_n before_o their_o day_n be_v not_o this_o a_o pretty_a shift_n as_o though_o themselves_o be_v not_o sufficient_a witness_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n the_o second_o be_v that_o albeit_o the_o father_n though_o dispersedly_z as_o occasion_n be_v offer_v mention_v these_o ceremony_n as_o use_v in_o the_o church_n in_o their_o day_n yet_o do_v they_o not_o set_v they_o down_o altogether_o in_o one_o place_n and_o be_v not_o this_o a_o more_o silly_a shift_n as_o though_o the_o father_n testimony_n of_o they_o in_o several_a be_v nothing_o except_o they_o do_v set_v they_o down_o altogether_o by_o which_o reason_n the_o evangelist_n themselves_o may_v be_v reject_v for_o that_o they_o put_v not_o down_o all_o thing_n together_o but_o many_o dispersedly_z as_o occasion_n be_v offer_v to_o treat_v of_o they_o the_o three_o be_v that_o albeit_o these_o ceremony_n be_v in_o use_n in_o the_o primitive_a church_n yet_o not_o in_o the_o same_o particular_a sign_n and_o form_n of_o word_n as_o they_o be_v use_v now_o in_o the_o roman_a church_n for_o so_o he_o have_v a_o little_a after_o that_o if_o we_o will_v be_v obstinate_a we_o must_v prove_v that_o the_o father_n pray_v in_o consecratinge_a light_n or_o use_v the_o same_o word_n in_o hallowinge_v water_n &_o salt_n which_o be_v now_o set_v down_o in_o the_o roman_a missal_n &_o by_o these_o &_o other_o like_a shift_n which_o for_o brevitye_n sake_n i_o omit_v he_o put_v of_o all_o that_o can_v be_v lay_v against_o he_o and_o it_o be_v as_o good_a a_o manner_n of_o answer_v as_o a_o merry_a good_a fellow_n be_v say_v to_o have_v use_v at_o oxford_n oxford_n in_o a_o visitation_n to_o avoid_v the_o punishment_n for_o the_o breach_n of_o certain_a statute_n of_o his_o college_n in_o the_o begin_v of_o the_o late_a queen_n reign_n to_o wit_n that_o when_o the_o statute_n be_v urge_v against_o he_o which_o do_v forbid_v scholar_n upon_o pain_n of_o expulsion_n to_o come_v in_o or_o go_v out_o over_o the_o wall_n he_o answer_v that_o be_v true_a when_o the_o gate_n be_v open_a and_o then_o be_v urge_v by_o another_o statute_n forbiddinge_a under_o the_o same_o pain_n to_o bear_v any_o weapon_n he_o answer_v that_o bear_v be_v understand_v in_o man_n hand_n but_o not_o as_o hang_v at_o their_o girdill_n and_o by_o these_o mean_n be_v he_o able_a to_o answer_v full_o all_o objection_n make_v against_o he_o for_o breach_n of_o statute_n and_o so_o be_v sutcliffe_n for_o falsifyinge_v of_o father_n by_o the_o like_a manner_n of_o answer_v and_o this_o shall_v suffice_v for_o the_o first_o place_n in_o the_o end_n whereof_o notwithstanding_o he_o return_v again_o to_o caluyn_n as_o be_v more_o trouble_v with_o his_o authority_n than_o all_o the_o other_o father_n bring_v against_o he_o master_n caluyn_n say_v he_o do_v not_o affirm_v any_o thing_n contrary_a to_o my_o word_n 5._o for_o albeit_o he_o say_v that_o he_o know_v how_o ancient_a some_o of_o these_o ceremony_n be_v which_o i_o deny_v to_o have_v be_v use_v in_o the_o first_o church_n yet_o do_v he_o not_o express_v how_o ancient_a they_o be_v nor_o speak_v any_o thing_n of_o their_o several_a form_n etc._n etc._n lo_o shiftinge_n &_o shufflinge_v upon_o caluyn_n also_o he_o do_v grant_v they_o be_v ancient_a but_o do_v not_o tell_v how_o ancient_a and_o sutcliffe_n say_v before_o that_o they_o be_v not_o practise_v in_o the_o ancient_a church_n and_o now_o he_o say_v that_o he_o deny_v they_o to_o be_v use_v in_o the_o first_o church_n and_o though_o three_o you_o shall_v prove_v that_o they_o be_v use_v as_o caluyn_n say_v in_o the_o ancient_a church_n yet_o will_v he_o say_v that_o caluyn_n do_v not_o affirm_v they_o to_o have_v be_v in_o the_o first_o church_n of_o all_o nor_o do_v he_o specify_v the_o particular_a form_n of_o word_n now_o use_v by_o the_o roman_a church_n and_o so_o will_v he_o escape_v out_o that_o way_n but_o now_o i_o will_v ask_v the_o discreett_a reader_n in_o good_a sadness_n what_o scripture_n what_o father_n what_o most_o evident_a truth_n may_v not_o be_v shift_v of_o and_o delude_v by_o these_o kind_n of_o illusion_n let_v the_o reader_n but_o look_n over_o the_o six_o chapter_n of_o ceremony_n 6._o in_o the_o 2._o 3._o 4._o and_o five_o centurye_n of_o the_o magdeburgian_o and_o he_o shall_v see_v the_o antiquity_n of_o all_o these_o point_n against_o sutcliffe_n in_o this_o place_n the_o second_o place_n object_v by_o e._n o._n to_o o._n e._n be_v in_o the_o same_o page_n where_o he_o say_v it_o be_v no_o catholic_a doctrine_n of_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n place_n to_o denounce_v they_o accurse_v that_o shall_v not_o hold_v baptism_n to_o be_v necessary_a to_o salvation_n the_o word_n of_o the_o council_n be_v these_o in_o the_o four_o canon_n concern_v baptism_n si_fw-mi quis_fw-la dixerit_fw-la baptismum_fw-la liberum_fw-la esse_fw-la 5._o hoc_fw-la est_fw-la non_fw-la necessarium_fw-la ad_fw-la salutem_fw-la anathema_n sit_v if_o any_o man_n do_v affirm_v that_o baptism_n be_v free_a that_o be_v to_o say_v not_o necessary_a to_o salvation_n let_v he_o be_v accurse_v and_o it_o be_v to_o be_v understand_v re_fw-mi well_fw-mi voto_fw-la as_o general_o all_o catholic_a divine_n do_v expound_v to_o wit_n that_o a_o man_n be_v either_o real_o or_o actual_o baptize_v or_o at_o least_o wise_a have_v a_o desire_n thereof_o which_o desire_n be_v to_o be_v understand_v in_o they_o that_o have_v year_n of_o understand_v and_o be_v let_v otherwise_o by_o some_o extrinsical_a mean_n from_o actual_a receavinge_v the_o same_o and_o what_o christian_a man_n will_v reprehend_v this_o doctrine_n or_o call_v it_o uncatholike_a as_o sutcliffe_n do_v e._n o._n assault_v he_o with_o three_o sort_n of_o weapon_n as_o himself_o confess_v first_o the_o authority_n of_o ancient_a father_n that_o affirm_v baptism_n to_o be_v necessary_a to_o salvation_n second_o the_o word_n of_o their_o own_o communion_n book_n where_o talk_v of_o the_o sacrament_n of_o baptism_n they_o say_v that_o none_o be_v save_v that_o be_v not_o regenerate_v by_o water_n three_o out_o of_o his_o own_o word_n diverse_a time_n repeat_v in_o other_o place_n upon_o other_o occasion_n where_o he_o say_v that_o child_n by_o baptism_n be_v receive_v into_o the_o ark_n of_o christ_n his_o church_n and_o again_o that_o want_n of_o baptism_n send_v infant_n to_o hell_n fire_n whereof_o his_o adversary_n infer_v ergo_fw-la it_o be_v necessary_a to_o salvation_n for_o that_o neither_o out_o of_o the_o ark_n nor_o in_o hell_n fire_n can_v they_o be_v save_v which_o be_v the_o same_o doctrine_n that_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n do_v teach_v and_o add_v a_o curse_n to_o they_o that_o deny_v it_o and_o these_o be_v the_o charge_v give_v now_o let_v we_o see_v how_o sutcliffe_n seek_v to_o run_v out_o of_o the_o list_n first_o he_o stand_v much_o upon_o the_o word_n let_v they_o be_v accurse_v and_o will_v we_o to_o show_v out_o of_o the_o father_n that_o they_o do_v use_v the_o word_n accurse_v 5._o neither_o do_v any_o father_n say_v he_o affirm_v that_o such_o be_v accurse_v that_o hold_v not_o baptism_n to_o be_v necessary_a be_v not_o this_o a_o egregious_a foolery_n as_o though_o the_o controversy_n be_v of_o the_o word_n accurse_v &_o not_o of_o the_o doctrine_n it_o self_n see_v that_o sutcliffes_n own_o word_n in_o his_o accusation_n be_v shift_n which_o doctrine_n of_o the_o council_n do_v not_o say_v he_o appear_v to_o be_v catholic_a and_o yet_o now_o will_v he_o hide_v himself_o under_o the_o word_n accurse_v as_o though_o the_o controversy_n be_v not_o about_o the_o doctrine_n but_o about_o the_o word_n and_o yet_o of_o we_o will_v stand_v also_o upon_o the_o curse_n sutcliffe_n can_v so_o escape_v but_o must_v undergo_v the_o say_a curse_n in_o like_a manner_n for_o he_o shall_v find_v the_o same_o both_o condemn_a and_o accurse_a express_o in_o the_o counsel_n of_o carthage_n and_o milivitanum_fw-la at_o which_o