false that full proofe cannot be made of all articles of faith out of scripture In the former sence there is not anie protestant that hath taught that the scriptures expresselie contayne all articles of faith and this you papists knowe For Eckius reprooueth the Lutherans for that they will haue nothinge beleeued but which is expresse scripture or can be prooued out of scriptures So that your owne side perceiue we beleeue thinges that are not expresselie sett downe in scriptures but nothinge which hath not a iust proofe out of it CHAMP The cloude is in your owne brayne and not in my position which is neither darke not doubtfull but to you who perceiuinge it to presse and pinch woulde gladlie finde some doubtefullnes therein For if you had not been either blinde or blinde foulded you would haue seen that the position denyeth full proofe of all articles of faith out of scriptures in the same sence and meaninge that you professe to mayntaine the affirmatiue and not onlie the expresse contayninge them in so manie wordes or sillabels Manuall proofe of the Catholike position The articles which protestants beleeue to be of faith as well as Catholikes and yett are not contayned expresselie in holy scripture are manie but we will geue instance but onlie in a fewe First that there are three distinct persons and one only substance or essence in God Secondlie that the second and thirde persons are of the same substance and of equall glorie with the first Thirdelie that the thirde person proceedeth from the second and from the first Fowerthly that there are two distinct and compleat natures in our Sauiour Christ and but one onlie person Fiftlie that there are in him two willes and two operations to witt of God and man aboute all which haue been diuerse heresies as is wel known to the learned And thoughe all these articles haue most true grounde and proofe in holy scriptures yett are they not so expressely contayned therein as they may be fullie prooued by them alone One example shall serue for al to prooue the sonne of God to be consubstantial or of one substance with the father the catholikes doe alleage and trulie this testimonie I and the father are one yett because there are moe means of being one theÌ„ in substaÌ„ce as namelie to be of one wil desire affectioÌ„ of which sorte of vnitie speciallie the Arrians did expound this place alleaginge for themselues that testimonie I pray that they al may be one as thou father in me and I in thee that they also in vs may be one Which cannot be vnderstoode of vnitie in substance Therefore this testimonie without the interpretation of the churche which is the piller of truth doth not fullie prooue the father and the sonne to be one in substance The like may be sayd of the other articles here mentioned PILK What a gap you opeÌ„ to Gentilisme Iudaisme and Heresie when you deny the maine groundes of christianitie to haue a full proofe from the scriptures but require the helpe of tradition and authoritie of the churche as if the authoritie of the church woulde preuaile with them with whom the scriptures will not CHAMP Are you a doctor in diuinitie and thinke a greate gappe to be opened to Gentilisme and Iudaiâ—me by denyinge the mistery of the blessed Trinitie to be fullie and clearlie prooued out of the scriptures only would you if you had to doe with them goe aboute to prooue that mysterie either out of the newe testament to the Iewes or out of the whole Bible to the Gentiles It would well become your iudgment indeede and suteth well with the rest of your learned discourses But whatsoeuer you would doe in that case I knowe that noe man indued with one dramme of witt would thinke that kinde of proofe to haue anie force with them that receiue not the scriptures thoughe they were as cleare and expresse as you coulde desire them to be And a for the gap opened hereby to heresie Lett the worlde that seeth so manie sects of heresies spronge out of one Luther iudge whether your paradoxe of the sufficiencie of onlie scripture without respecte to the churches authoritie and iudgment hath not brought them forth and begotten them Lett the example of Legatt testifie whether your position or myne open the gap wider to heresie Finallie lett all the heresies in the worlde witnes whether the contemninge of the churches authoritie in expoundinge of holy scriptures hath not been the mother of them all Take away therefore your paradoxe of the fulnes of scriptures and put my position of the necessitie of the churches iudgment in declaringe the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures in practise and the gap to all heresie will quicklie be so fast shutt that shee will neuer more appeare in the worlde PILK But in defence of that royall and holy faith we are verie confident that all these articles expressed by you haue both a true and full proofe from them The trinitie of persons in the vnitie of one essence is plainlie taught otherwise what man or Angell durst prie into that maiestie lest he were oppressed of glorie There be three that beare witnes in heauen Father worde holy ghost and these three are one saith S. Iohn And Mathewe 28. Baptise them in the name of the Father the sonne and the holy Ghost Which places as they prooue the vnitie of the essence in trinitie of persons so likewise doe they theire comon glorie because to be and to be glorious in the God heade is all one as S. Aug. argueth The procession of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is fullie taught Io. 15. 26. where he is termed the Spiritt of truth that proceedeth froÌ„ the father which verie worde S. Ioh. vseth of the to w-edged sworde proceedinge out of the mouth of Christe which is nothinge but the spiritt of his lippes wherwith he shall striks the wicked as Esay prophesieth cap. 11. 4. And with the breath of his lippes he shall slay the wicked And to shewe his procession as well from the sonne as from the father Christe breathed vppon his disciples and sayde Receiue the holie ghost and for that he is called the spiritt of the sonne Gal. 4. 6. And because yee are sonnes God hath sent forth the spirit of his sonne into your hearts which crieth Abba father That there be two destinct natures in Christ one onlie person Esay prophesied cap. 1. 14. Behoulde the Virgin shall conceiue and beare a sonne and shee shall call his name Immanuell And like Ierc. cap. 23. 6. In his dayes Iuda shall be saued and Israell shall will safelie and this is the name whereby they shall cal him the lorde our righteousnes which S. Iohn fulfilled Io. 1. 14. And the worde was made flesh and dwelte amonge vs and we sawe the glorie thereof as the glorie of the onlie begotten of the father full of grace and truth of
them by whom the Ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP If you had taken but ordinarie heede what you wrote you woulde not haue sayde that my position hath anie opposition with S. Ireneus who sayth not that the Apostles wrote all they preached as he should haue don to make your antithesis good but onlie that they wrote the same gospell which they preached and not a different or contrarie doctrine to their preachinge as some prophane heretickes of whom he maketh there mentioÌ„ impudentlie taught which sence of this Father your selfe acknowledge pag. 5. But if you will needes make this consequence they wrote that which they preached ergo they wrote all that they preached as you must argue if you will make anie antithesis betwixt my position and S. Ireneus his doctrine I will say that either you haue forgotten your logicke or that you neuer had anie For to make or inferre an vniuersall proposition of an indefinite in nâ—n necessarijs is most absurde as you shall see by these examples Homo est albus vel caluus ergo omnis homo est a â—us vel caluus or the kinge writeth that he speaketh and thinketh therefore he writeth all he speaketh or thinketh Moreouer of S. Ireneus his iudgment concerninge traditions you might haue informed your selfe by the chapter immediatelie followinge that which you cite where he hath these wordes When we appeall to that tradition which descendinge from the Apostles is by the succession of priestes in the Churche preserued they to wit heretikes reiect Traditions PILK The scriptures are darke and difficult to be vnderstoode and all articles of faith are not clearelie layde downe in them All thinges are cleare in the holy scriptures to them that come to them with a godlie minde CHAMP The position of the Manuall which you ayme at as this All places of holy scripture containinge articles of faith the obstinate misbeleefe whereof is damnable are not easie to be vnderstoode but require some rule to be interpreted by Nowe if you will maintaine this position to be opposite to S. Epiphanius you must graunte that your doctrine is opposite to him which I euidentlie shewe in this manner In the roll of positions which you say are forgéd by me against you and are sett downe by you in the next page of your booke This in the second All places of holie scripture conteininge articles of faith are easie to be vnderstoode which proposition if you will reiect as none of yours as you doe in the place mentioned then must necessarilie the contradictorie proposition which is the same with mine here carped at by you and wich you say is opposite to S. Epiphanius be yours and then doe you contradict S. Epiphanius if you will say that I doe Or if you will confesse the truth and acknowledge this latter proposition to be yours as doubtles it is why doe you then charge me with forgeinge it against you Accorde your owne sayinges and then shall I knowe what to answere vnto In the meane while you are vnfortunate to stumble so grosselie if contradictinge your selfe in so shorte a space may be termed onlie stumblinge in the verie entrance of your dispute My position shall be shewed agreeable both with holy Scriptures and auncient Fathers in due place And as for your authoritie alleaged out of S. Epiphanius if it be in him as I knowe noâ— whether it be or noe for it is cited by you so at large that I cannot finde it it may haue this true sence and meaninge That all thinges are cleare in scriptures to such as come to them with this minde to vnderstande them as the catholicke Churche and the true pastors thereof interpret them Which sayinge hath noe contrarietie at all with my position For I doe not say that the scriptures are harde to be vnderstoode by the churche or that they neede another rule to be interpreted by then the Churches vnderstandinge and interpretation PILK The sence of the holy scriptures geuen by the churche is vnfalliblie true as are also the definitions and declarations of faith deliuered by the same and euerie one is bounde vppon his damnation not to reiect the iudgment therof Who knoweth not that the holie scriptures as well of the old as newe testament is contayned in certaine boundes and so is to be preferred before all the latter writinges of Bishoppes that noe man ought to doubte att all or call in question whether it be true or right whatsoeuer is written therein when as the writinges of Bishopes that haue been or are written after the canon confirmed may lawfullie be reprehended both by the wiser speache of anie that is more skilfull in that matter and by grauer authoritie of other Bishopps and wisdome of the learned and also by councells if they haue in anie point wandred from the truth and euen nationall and prouincial councells doe giue place to those that are collected out of the whole vniuersall Christian worlde and generall counsells themselues are often amended the former by the latter as often as by tryal experience the thinge was opened that before was shutt or knowne that was hidd without anie swellinge of sacrilegious pride or stiffe necke of arrogancie or contention of deadlie enuie with holy humilitie with Catholicke peace with Christian charitie CHAMP You doe greatlie abuse your readers patience farceinge your booke with such impertinencies And you doe no lesse wronge the holy Father S. August bringinge his wordes as coÌ„tradictinge the churches infallibilitie in matters of faith and interpretation of the scriptures which he so often and so euidently restifieth But to conuince you of wilfulnes in abusinge S. Aug. it shall suffice to sett here before you that onlie Testimonie of the same holy Father which is expressed in the Manuall in proofe of this position which you would haue him to contradict His wordes there sett downe are these Although noe example is brought out of holie scripture of this thinge that the Baptisme of heretickes is sufficient yett doe we followe the truth of the same scripture in this point whilst we doe that which pleaseth the whole Churche which the authoritie of scriptures doth commend And because the holie scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued by the obscuritie of these questions letâ— him consulte therevpon with the churche which without all doubte the scriptures doe shewe Iudge nowe with your selfe whether you or I speake more conformablie to S. Aug. That which you alleage out of him of the doctrine of particular Bishopps or councells compared with the doctrine of holy scripture is altogether impertinent to your purpose That which he saith of vniuersall councells that the former may be ameÌ„ded by the latter is vnderstoode of matters pertayninge to manners or practise which often are changed accordinge as circumstances
was decreed and donne was ascribed to Caesar Bibulus was a Cypher So whatsoeuer interpretation the RomaÌ„ churche that is the Pope geueth that must be intertayued the fathers sett behinde the dore This your Cardinall that was present at the counsell vnder Pius the fowerth telleth vs. Whatsoeuer the churche teacheth vs is the expresse worde of God whatsoeuer is taught contrarie to the sence and sentence of the churche is the expresse worde of the diuell CHAMP I maruell whither you will wander at lenght what is all this to the tryinge whether you or we haue the true sence of the scriptures The councell of Trent decreeth expreslie that which you seeme to approoue and yett you are not content with it your example of Caesar and Bibulus in a grammer scholler had been tollerable but in a D. of diuinitie it is too ridiculous And if you dislike the doctrine which you ascribe to Cardinal Hosius why doe you onlie mumble and grumble att it with in your teeth without disproouinge it either by scriptures or fathers But your malice will not permitt you to imbrace the truth nor your courage or strenght serue you to impugne it PILK And another more auncient then he It is no maruelle if the practise of the churche at one tyme interprett the scriptures after this manner and another after that for the vnderstandinge runneth with the practice for that sence which is concurrent with the practice is the quickinge spiritt therefore the scriptures followe church not conuertiblie If then the sentence of the Fathers ruÌ„ne not with the moderne Roman church they are not the messengers of God but in this manes opinion instruments of the diuell CHAMP You still wander out of the way and stray from your purpose But I will yett folowe you thoughe not without some patience Cusanus speaketh expresslie of the vse or sece of scriptures so farr as they pertaine to the rite order or manner of administring the Sacraments and namelie of Communion vnder one or both kindes which rites or Ceremonies because they may be diuerse and changeable without anie preiudice either to the nature of the Sacraments or to the veritie of holy scripture as indeede they are at this day different in the Greeke and Latin church the one consecratinge the holy Eucharist in leauened bredd the other in vnleauened and yett neither of them contrarie to the scriptures they may be altered and changed accordinge as the wisdome of gods churche seeth iust occasion and yett accordinge to the sence and meaning of the holy scriptures which to the churche is neuer vnknowne and this is Cusanus his plaine doctrine which you could not haue been ignorant of if you had read him yourselfe But it is your good nature to make alwaies the worst sence of your authors to deceaue your reader thereby For he speaketh not of scriptures so farr as they containe articles of faith which euer are the same but as they appertaine to matters of practice which may be different accordinge to the diuersitie of circumstances occurringe In settinge downe his wordes you vse your accustomed arte and fraude For his wordes where vppon you would make your cheefe aduantage are these Therefore the scriptures followe the church which was before them and for which the scriptures are not contrarie That is the churche is not for the scriptures Whereas you leauing out some parte of his speache make his wordes to sound that the sence and meaninge of the scriptures followe the vnderstandinge of the churche and not the vnderstandinge of the churche the sence of scriptures but might be contrarie vnto it which neither he nor anie other catholick man euer dreamed of PILK And in verie deed thoughe the Pope hath deuised a solemne oath whereunto your prosessours are sworne that they shall admitte of the holy scriptures accordinge to that sence which the holy mother the churche holdeth and they shall not at anie tyme take or interprett them but accordinge to the vnanimous consent of the fathers yett it is manifest that they doe not onlie leaue the sence which the fathers followe but followe that which noe father within 500. yeres after Christ did euer dreame of CHAMP Seinge the councell of Trent hath decreed as you say and the Pope hath appointed an othe to binde men to followe the sence of the scriptures deliuered by the church and consent of the fathers you haue small reason to say it is manifest that catholikes doe leaue that sence without some manifest proofe of your assertion which I will expect and exact of you vnder paine to esteeme you a rashe and slaunderous impostour In the meane tyme whilst you performe this taske you may for your erudition vnderstand that it is one thinge to giue an interpretation of a place of scripture which the fathers haue not geuen before and another to interprete it contrarie to the vniforme Consent of fathers The churche of god beinge no lesse assisted nowe by the holie ghost which teacheth her all truth accordinge to the infalible promise of our auiour Christe then was the churche within the first 500. yeeres shee is no lesse able to interprete the scripture accordinge to the true meaninge thereof then shee was then yet shee neuer gaâ—e-saith the interpretation of the auncient churche or of the vniforme consent of the holy fathers but lett vs heare howe you prooue your sayinge PILK Your late diuines interpretinge that place there shall be one flocke and one Shephearde forsake the fathers which vnderstande it of Christ and cleaue to the sence of theire mother who will haue it to be the Pope CHAMP Are you a master in Cambridge and knowe not that these two sences may be both true without anie contrarietie neither moderne nor auntient diuines euer vnderstood this place otherwise then of our Sauiour Christ principallie and for himselfe or per excellâ—ntiam But that it is not trulie vnderstood of him to whome he commended his flock which he redeemed as S. Chriâ—ostome saith who therefore is his vicar and vicegerent here in earth and also of his lauful successour in the same charge secondarilie and by participation none but contentious heretikes who will see nothinge in the scriptures contratie to theire errour doe will or canne denie PILK Doe this in remembrance of me that is sacrifice this is nowe the sence of the Roman churche shewe one father that tooke it soe and you shall weare the garland CHAMP Stand to your worde and the garlande will be mine by anie indifferent mans iudgment Heare S. Ireneus who liued aboue 1400. yeres agoe â—uÌ„ qui ex creatura panis est accepit gratias egit dicens Hoc est corpus meuÌ„ caliceÌ„ similiter qui est ex creatura quae est secundum nos suum sanguinem confessus ect noui testamenti nouam docuit oblationcm quam Ecclesia ab Apostoliâ— accipieÌ„s in vniuerso mundo offerâ— Deo When he tooke that which is of the creature bread
by scripture to acknowledge I say this position to be false which notwithstandinge is one mayne grounde of all theire religion PILK When a souldier that killed Marius came to cutt of his head he drewe out his sworde and told him hie est gladius quem ipse fecisti for Marius formerlie had been a cutter The groundes that you haue layde cutt the throate of your faith but raseth not the skinne of the protestants For I haue shewed before that scriptures doe sufficiently prooue themselues to be the worde of God and these and these bookes to be such whereon it followeth your conuincinge demonstration that protestants beleeue nothinge att all to be a windy friuoulous discourse whereas such conclusions may be drawne from your principles as will prooue vulnera in capite canis you will not easilie licke them hole CHAMP Remoue the sworde first from your owne throate whiâ—hâ—â— presseth to harde and after may you atteÌ„pt to pietie your aduersarie with it You haue hitherto made a 〈…〉 able shewe of anie proofe but of your owne in reâ—lible ignorance and impertinencie ioyned with wilfull stande to deâ—eâ—â—e your reader If you defend your proâ—estaâ—â—s no better then hitherto you â—â—â—ue they will be euidentlie concluded to belieue nothinge att all by the argument proposed which 〈…〉 e you cannott tell where to begin to solue oâ— anâ—weâ—e you make a Thrasonicall and glorious shâ—we of contempt of it as manie of yours 〈◊〉 and 〈…〉 elie your grand maister Calluine when 〈…〉 most prest and hath least to say for himselfe Are you nâ—â— ashamed to lett myne argument stand as a â—â—â—phey against you your heresie without saying one worde in answere of it idlie supposinge that you haue sayde somethinge to it before But seeinge you dare not sett vppon mine argument to satisfi it which you should first haue donne lett vs see what incurable woundes you geue vnto me out of myne owne principles PILK For they that relie theire faith vppon humane testimonies originallie are conuinced to haue no faith att all for faith commeth by hearinge and hearinge by the worde of God But you papists relie your faith vppon humane testimonies originallie when you ground it on the authoritie of the churche which you say is a more vniuersall rule and more auncient then the scriptures Now then make the conclusion as pleaseth you CHAMP I graunte your proposition or maior and deny your minor For where learned you to terme the authoritie of the churche humane testimonie seeinge the holy ghost stileth the churche the house of God the piller and grounde of truth your conclusion therefore is blowne away like a fether So that the wounde which you thought woulde prooue so grieuous is not so much as the blowe of a litle childe Spitt therefore vppon your handes take better hold and strike more manfullie or else geue your bill to another But so hoodewinkt you are either with ignorance or malice that strikinge at your aduersarie you hitt your selfe For whilst you say with S. Paule that faith commeth by hearinge hearinge by the worde of God you prooue that the scripture or the word written which is not hearde but reade is not the first meanes of our saith but the worde of God preached as S. Paule sayth in the same place which was before the scriptures PILK From hence commeth all this warr that we will not grounde our faith vppon the totteringe wall of humane authoritie as you doe but cleaue fast to the sacred scriptures beleeuinge nothinge as Paule taught but that which was written in Moises and the prophetts which we reioyce to haue made the meane grounde of our religion CHAMP A stoute Champion I wisse that after the first blowe and that a verie weake one casteth downe his armes and thinkinge to ouerthrowe his aduersarie with wordes falleth to raylinge as if he hoped to gaine the victorie rather by his stinkinge breath then by strength of hande stroakes You hauing been att the schoole of the father of all falsehoode haue learned to call the churche of God and the infallible authoritie thereof the totteringe wall of humane authoritie which the holy ghoste by the mouth of this Apostle stileth the piller and ground of truth wherby as by manie other passages you shewe what honour and respect you beare vnto the holy scriptures seeinge you dare so disdainfullie debase the house of God which they so highelie prise and extoll You farther glorie in that you beleeue nothinge but which is written in Moises and the prophettes whereby you prooue your selfe to be a Iewe and no Christian Either retract this Iewishe proposition of yours or blotte out of your Bibles the whole newe testament that you may be knowne to be noe Christian and that you may fill vppe the measure of your grande mayster Martin Luther who hath longe since cast out diuers bookes out of the newe testament besides those he hath reiected out of the oulde You seeme to father this your fowle doctrine vppon S. Paule thoughe you dayne him not the honour of S. Paule but why doe you not poynte att the place where he teacheth it If S. Paule had been of this minde that you woulde seeme to make him of in vayne did he write his Epistells in vayne did the rest of the Apostles and Euangelists write theire workes Againe suppose S. Paule had written anie such thinge in his letters or Epistles howe woulde you make anie man beleeue that Epistle to be his and therefore to be canonicall scriptures vnlesse you will vse the authoritie of tradition and the churches testimonie All the witt and cunning you haue yea thoughe you borrowed all that of the rest of the ministers in the worlde will not shape a sufficient answere to this question PILK And which if we coulde not prooue yett canne we not be conuinced to haue noe faith because they are principles against which none dare open his mouth that anie way woulde haue himselfe to be counted a Christian as S. Aug. spake For as other artes and sciences are sufficientlie knowne credited without proofe of theire principles so matters diuine are perfectlie and demonstratiuelie persuaded vnto vs from this indemonstrable principle of the holy scriptures saith Clemens and are not prooued by iudgment but comprehended by faith CHAMP Why doe you say which iâ— we coulde not prooue as thoughe you had some meane to prooue it without traditions and the churches authoritie But they are principle you say and therefore not to be prooued The scriptures are principles of faith in deede in a certayne degree but they are not prime principles which onlie are to be beleeued for themselues without anie further proofe vnles as I toulde you before you will make them to be God who onlie is to be beleeued for his owne proper veritie and all other verities for him And when you say out of S. Aug. that none dare open their mouth against them that will be counted a
which two distinct natures there be two wills and two operations as S. Luke sheweth not my will but thy will be doÌ„ne For he that hath two perfect natures must needes haue theire natural properties operations but to wil worke are natural proprieties operations followinge both natures in Christ therfore he had two willes and two operations All which places are vrged by the auncient Fathers and late writers protestants and papists to confirme these seuerall points in so much that you are forced to graunt that they haue a true proofe from the holy scriptures And then I may say as S. August saith to Maximian the Arrian Si vox ista vera est quaestio illa finita est But you papists haue nimbler witts then the fathers for you are not content with truth but you must haue full proofe as thoughe that proofe which to a man is true were not full For there can be noe fuller proofe then that which doth conuince and satisfie the vnderstandinge but a true proofe doth so For what is truth but adaequatio rei intellectus And yett if there be anie difference betweene true full these articles are fullie concluded out of the scripture For beinge articles of the Apostolicke creede they are plainlie sett downe as Bellarmine confesseth out of S. Aug. And some of them questioned by the Arrians as the consubstantialitie of the sonne which in the next place you except against he saith that of these questions which then were moued clarissima extabant in scripturis testimonia quae sine dubio antepÌ„onenda sunt omnibus conciliorum testimonijs These thinges then that haue most cleare testimonies out of scriptures and to be preferred before all testimonies of councells haue a full proofe from them but such are some of these articles yett you proceede to fight against scriptures and wringe from Christians one of the strongest Bulwarkes they haue against Arrians I and the consubstantialitie of the sonne because the Arrians interpreted it of vnitie of concorde and will But if the mist of poperie had not blinded your eyes you might easily haue seen vnanswerable arguments out of the text to prooue the sonne consubstantiall to the father and so to be vnderstoode of the vnitie of substance For the Iewes require him to tell them plainely whether he be that Christ he answereth directlie he is there fore the naturall and consubstantiall sonne of God as he prooueth Matt. 22. 45. out of the Psalme 100. If then Dauid called him Lorde howe is he then his sonne Secondlie he that geueth eternall life to his sheepe so that none can take them out of his hande is of the same power and consequentlie of the same nature with God For what is it to be God but to be of the highest and greatest power then which none greater but the sonne doth soe ver 28. 29. And I geue vnto them eternall life and they shall neuer perish neither shall anie plucke them out of myne hande Thirdlie the Iewes tooke vppe stones to stone him as a blasphemer as one that made himselfe God this cause they sett downe in plaine termes verse 33. Because thou makest thy selfe God beinge man but it is no blasphemie to be of the like will desire and affection with God playne therefore it is by Christs argument that he did preache God so to be his Father as the Iewes vnderstoode he would haue himselfe the naturall sonne of God See nowe excepte you be blinder theÌ„ the Iewes how plentifullie this scripture prooueth the consubstaÌ„tialitie of the sonne and as for the place of Io. 17. it helpeth not the Arrians at all as S. Aug. sheweth to Pascentius the Arrian For that wheresoeuer the scripture speaketh of two that are one as in this place they are euer of one substance And therfore he chargeth both Maximianus theire Bishoppe and Pascentius a noble man of theire opinion to trauers the scriptures if anie where they coulde shew two sayde to be one that are not one in substance But lett this be graunted that I and the Father are one prooueth onlie vnitie of will not of substance is there not an armie of scriptures besides this to prooue the sonne of the same substance that we neede not call in the authoritie of the churche CHAMP You haue bestowed all this labour moste idlie goinge aboute to prooue to me that these articles are true and to haue true grounde in the scriptures which no catholicke euer doubted of That which you shoulde haue laboured in if you woulde haue spoken to the purpose is that these articles haue so full proofe out of scriptures onlie that an heretike might be conuinced thereby without iudgment and interpretation of the churche vppon the same places Which is euidently prooued to be false by the many and diuerse heresies which haue been maintayned against all these articles For the authors thereof hereticallie refusinge the vnderstandinge of the church vppon those places of scriptures and diuers others as you also doe in the places condemninge your heresies and followinge wilfullie theire owne iudgment therein as you in like manner doe coulde not be conuinced of theire errours but interpreted these places and all others brought against them in such sorte as they made not against them att all And as for the particuler authorities proouing diuers of these articles consulte with your Grand Maister Caluin and see what weight he putâ—eth in them for the proofe of the sayde misteries Or if you like not to turne his bookes read the litle booke written by Egidius Hunnius a professed protestant intituled Caluinus Iudaizans and you shall see whether he was conuinced in these articles by all the passages of holy scripture alleaged for that purpose Yett would I not haue you to thinke that I approoue his wicked doctrine herein which I detest as most hereticall but onlie produce him as an irreprooueable instance of my position Therefore all the longe lose and imperfect discourse which you haue made in this paragraffe wherein are manie paralogismes and impertinencies so farr as it prooueth anie thinge prooueth Caluin to haue been a wicked miscreant but prooueth nothinge against my position which denieth not these verities to haue most true ground in holy scripture according to the true sence and meaninge thereof but not in such sorte as the euidence thereof cannot be auoyded by an heretike And you your selfe that wrangle so much heere against all experience as well of the present as all precedent ages will not acknowledge the catholike positions nowe in controuersie prooued by more or at least by as plaine and expresse scripture as these are to be sufficientlie prooued So that I neede seeke no further confirmation of my position then the experience of your owne peruersitie PILK Yea to stoppe your mouth I add that S. Aug. doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the church in his polemicall bookes against the Arrian Bishopp in two seuerall councells the one of Nice the
Moreouer were it certainly knowne vnto vs that S. Mathewe wrote the gospell we haue vnder his owne name as it is nowe by tradition and the churches authoritie yett vnles it were further certaine that he wrote by diuine inspiration which without some diuine testimonie we knowe not it could not be certaine to vs that his gospell is the word of God Nowe if you had lefte out of the number of those that haue called the scriptures into questioÌ„ Iesuites and putt in theire place Lutherans or Protestants your wordes might haue passed for currant But tell me in the small honestie of a protestant minister did you euer knowe that anie Iesuite called anie booke of scripture into question or doubte you cannot thoughe you burst your selfe giue an instance Whereas you doe not onlie call manie bookes of the holy Byble into doubt but absolutlie reiect them as Apocripha and your Grand father Luther with his truer disciples doth manie moe euen of those which you say is madnes to call into question Hath malice so blinded you and wilfull rage against the truth made you so madd that you feele not the deadly woundes which you geue your selfe whilst you strike or at least thinke to strike your aduersarie PILK But what iuglinge is this we beleeue these bookes to be theirs whose names they carrie for the authoritie of the churche that is the Pope who is S. Peeters successour and holdeth all his authoritie from him and yett we cannot beleeue S. Peeter himselfe that this Epistle is his but because the present Pope hath so determined it CHAMP I cannot say that you iugle here you are so grossely impertinent and hoodle vppe so manie apparant absurdities in these fewe wordes Where learned you I pray you that the Pope is the churche or that he holdeth all his authoritie from S. Peter and not from Christ himselfe Againe where doth S Peter testifie that this is his Epistle haue you or anie of your reformed bretheren heard him say it no such thinge Seeing therefore neither you nor anie man nowe a liue euer heard him testifie anie such thinge what great iuglinge is it I pray you to beleeue a liuely and liuinge witnes assisted by the spiritt of truth and taught by those who lineallie descended from S. Peter testifiinge that these are S. Peters writinges rather then to beleeue a doombe paper or parchment which might be written by some other as well as other thinges that went a broade vnder the same Apostles name And by that which hath beeÌ„ hitherto sayde on both sides you may see if you will not shut your eies that you may not see that it is cleare notwithstandinge all your childishe ianglinge that all articles of faith are not contayned in scriptues otherwise then is mentioned in the position of the Manuall nowe lett vs see your answere to the other proofes of the same position PILK To your second instance we say with Saint August that we are not willinge to moue anie questions aboute the Mother of God for the honour we beare vnto her sonne Yett sith you stirre the coales we answere that it is an highe pointe of our faith and sufficientlie prooued in the scriptures that Christe was borne of an intemerat Virgin but whether after his birth shee were knowne of Ioseph thoughe the negatiue be a seemelie and reuerend truth yett we say with Basill that it toucheth not our faith CHAMP You woulde seeme to be religiouslie affected towardes the blessed Virgin but notwithstandinge you minse S. Aug wordes least you shoulde doe her too much honour his wordes are these De Maria propter honorem Saluatoris nullam cum de â—eccatis agitur habere volo quaestionem And in the end you are content rather to incline towardes the old heretike Heluidius then to beleeue with the holy catholike churche concerninge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed Virgin Where is nowe I pray you your rule of faith before mentioned non credimus quia non legimus I coniure you vppon forfeiture of your honestie and integritie either to reiect that rule as noe sufficient grounde of faith in anie article or else to beleeue that the blessed Virgin was neuer knowne of anie man Take whether parte you please you shall geue sentence for me against your selfe PILK Your thirde instance is no article of faith but â— Canon of manners so in the number not of thinges to be beleeued but to be donne Wherein thoughe to the Apostles for the auoydinge of scandall for the eatinge of thinges strangled and blood yett when the offence was remoued the eatinge was allowed Rom. 14. 14. 1. Tim. 4. 4. and Saint August prooueth it out of S. Mathewe cap. 15. 17. 18. CHAMP Are you so blockishe that you doe not or so peruerse that you will not see the difference betweene the practise of anie thinge and the doctrine of the lawfulnes of the same practise Whereby you might be taught that thoughe the first be not an article of faith yett the second may be For example thoughe it be not an article of faith for two single persons to marrie together but a matter of practise yett is it a matter of faith that they may lawfullie marrie together as I hope you will not denie and so in fiue hundreth more thinges That the Apostles did make that prohibition for a tyme onlie and not to continue euer where is it written or whence haue you it but by the churches authoritie interpretation The places of scriptures by you cited were they to the purpose as they are not woulde be sufficient arguments to make some of the bookes doubtfull as coÌ„tradictinge the one the other were there not a iudge to reconcile them and bringe them to attonement togeather And thus you see all the three instances brought in proofe of the catholike position in the Manuall to remaine firme and solide and your euasions to be childishe wranglings without truth or substance PILK Thus you see you fight against God when you warre against the perfection of holy worde Which that you may more plainlie perceiue in the last place I will sett downe the protestants doctrine not in such double tearmes as you deuised but theire owne wordes as they haue positiuelie deliuered with the seuerall authorities of holy scriptures whereby they confirme it and testimonies of fathers whereby they shewe the consanguinitie of it with the purest Christians For the positions sett downe by you are not by them acknowledged CHAMP If you deny my positions to be true as hauinge hitherto disputed against them you seeme to doe then must you of necessitie acknowledge the contradictorie to be true and maintaine them as yours vnles you will haue both contradictories to be false which no man yett euer hearde of But why doe you not put downe the positions which I call the protestants positions that the reader might see how iustlie you denie them to be yours I will supply your defect that the
disputer to beare the name of a doctour But S. Athanasius saith they fledd to the fathers seinge they coulde not preuaile by the scriptures Be it that S. Athan saith soe it is euident thereby that they alleaged scriptures contrarie to your assertion S. HieroÌ„ whom you drawe in by the eares saith as little to your purpose putt case you cite him truelie which I will not stande to examine For he saith no such thinge as that heretikes alleage not scriptures which you shoulde prooue but because you imagine his sayinge to make against traditions which if you had but one sparke of iudgment you would see howe vnseasonablie you impugne here I will answere it by puttinge you in minde that catholickes pretend not traditions without the testimonie of scriptures butt accordinge to the expresse testimonie thereof which you knowe and therefore is your impertinencie in alleaginge S. Hierome his wordes lesse excusable PILK What then thoughe Satan the Father and heretikes his sonnes abuse the letter of the scripture as you papists nowe doe yett with noe other weapon did Christ conquer him and them to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spirit wherewith the deuill and all his adherents must be putt to flight but this you say is the sence and not the wordes onlie CHAMP Whether you or we abuse the scriptures as Satan did is in controuersie betweene vs and must necessarilie light vppon one side In the meane tyme whilst it appeare whether you or we be the scholers of Satan hence it is clearlie manifest that it is not enoughe for the proofe of anie doctrine to cite scripture for it which is my position against which you haue hitherto wilfullie wrangled And if you will stande to that ignoraunt paradox of yours that with no other weapon then the scriptures our Sauiour conquered the deuill and his children and that to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spiritt where with they are to be putt to flight blott out of your Bibles the whole newe testament as you haue donne manie bookes of the ould for no worde of the newe testament was written diuers yeeres after our Sauiours Ascention into heauen and triumphe ouer the deuill and hel Woulde you haue me conclud this in forme of argument against you Here take it That scripture onlie is the sworde of the spirit which our Sauiour vsed But he vsed noe other scripture then the oulde testament ergo the ould testament oulie is the sworde of the spirit The maior is your owne the minor is euident the conclusion followeth directlie vpon the premisses Whence clearlie followeth this consequence Therefore the newe testament is not necessarie So that you see howe well you argue for the authoritie and dignitie of holy scripture But qui ambulat in tenebris nescit quo vaait PILK Madd Orestes would sweare he were out of his witts that could imagine otherwise For the the Gospell lyeth not in the wordes of the scripture but in the sence not in the rinde but in the pith not in the leaues of speeches but in the grounde of reason saith the same Father Wherein it followeth that gods worde foolishlie vnderstoode is not his worde which consisteth not in reading but in vnderstandinge and that adulteratinge the sence hurteth the truth as much as marringe the sentences of scriptures The sence then is the GarlaÌ„d we striue for which whether it be with you or vs you refer your selfe vnto the incorrupte testimonie of some holy Father that liued a thousand yeres a goe as if you meant to stand to the Fathers verdict whome your good maysters as scornefullie contemne as if they were schoole boyes when once they contradict the sence of the Roman church CHAMP I willinglie ioyne with you in this issue also that the sence of the scripture is the garlande you ought to striue for And if you dare the Fathers shall be the iudge of our plea but you dare as well eat hoat coales as stande to theire verdict PILK When we prooue out of Tertullian that liued 200. yeeres after Christ that Pope Zepherinus fauored the heresie of Montanus contrarie to your newe Roman Sence that Popes cannot erre we must not at all beleeue Tertullian in this point saith Bellarmine For he was a Montanist yea an euill spiritt so carried him that of euill being made worse and worse and most filthie he spued out most horrible blasphemies saith Barronius CHAMP What is this to the purpose of tryinge the true sence of the scriptures haue you so quicklie forgotten the thinge in question But to followe you in your extrauagances least you should thinke your obiection not to be answered Tell me I pray you in the small honestie of a minister whether you geue more creditt to Tertullian nowe a confessed heretike in a matter aduantageous to his errour then to all antiquitie testifyinge Zepherin Pope to haue been an holy Sainte and Martyr Are you so maliuouslie bent against the Pope and sea of Rome that to fix some fault vppon them you will put Saincts out of heauen make martyrs heretikes and that for the bare testimonie of a professed heretike lett the iudicious reader iudge what spiritt you are guided by PILK When we vrge S. Aug. to prooue that in the state of corruption there is no free will in man to that which is good contrarie to your sence Stapleton saith he went beyond all good measure in his dispute against Pelagius with like vsage doe they entertaine the rest when they crosse theire grosse errours CHAMP This obiection is as impertinent as the precedent For be it that the Fathers haue some harde speeches which heretikes abuse to theire owne hurte what maruell sith the holy ghost testifieth the like of the holy scriptures themselues Stapleton speaketh neuer a worde directlie of free will in that chapter nor yett of S. Aug. opinion thereof But hauinge shewed S. August to haue taught that gentills and others not iustified doe not sinne in all theire workes obiecteth to himselfe certaine places out of S Aug. where disputinge against Iulian the Pelagian he seemeth to incline to the contrarie opinion Which hauinge answered and explicated by other of his sayinges in the same places he concludeth Sed vtâ—unque in hac disputatione moaum forâ—asse excesserit Augustinus vt propter aduersarij putuiantissiman impudentiam etiam peccata esse diceret quae vere perfecte bona non essent tamen nusquan alibi id dixisse aut scripsisse legitur vbi sine aduersario non agonostice sed dogmatice scripsit Which are the wordes of StapletoÌ„ you carpe att but why if you consider them a little better you will not easilie shewe PILK For howesoeuer your councell of Trent make a semblance to decree that the scriptures must be interpreted accordinge to the sence which the churche holdeth or the vnanimous consent of the fathers approoueth yett it is plaine that as when Caesar and Bibulus were consulls together whatsoeuer
vnderstandinge according to scriptures CHAMP I wish with all my hearte thoughe you geue little occasion to hope it that you woulde immitate S. Aug aswell in this particular as in all other thinges then woulde you with all humilitie and reuerence receiue and acknowledge the authoritie of the churche in the interpretation of the scriptures and not diabolicallie bragge of the brauenes of your spirits that dare contemne the same Hearken I pray you vnto S. Aug wordes to Cresconius in the same chapter cited by you which seeinge you take noe notice of it is an euident argument you haue noe greate desire to learne anie thinge of him but to see if you canne picke anie thinge out of him for your purpose which is to impugne him and the rest of the fathers His wordes are these which may as properlie be vsed to you as he vsed them to Cresconius Put your selfe saith he in the churche which it is manifest S. Cyprian defended and then may you alleage S. Cyprians authoritie for your doctrine The same I say to you concerninge S. Aug example thoughe you came neerer the imitatinge thereof theÌ„ you doe You say you followe the direction of the priests and leuits in expoundinge scriptures I finde nothing att all in the place quoted by you warrantinge your vsage of scriptures But were it as you thinke you must first prooue your selues to be priests or leuits before you can take vppon you the charge of priests and leuits in expoundinge the scriptures How would you answere that olde question put vnto such as you are well nighe 1400. yeares a goe Vnde vemtts quid in meo â—acitis non mei or if you will take vppon you as priests and leuits to expounde the scriptures beinge noe such men those that desire not to be deceaued will reiect your expositions as false and pernitious PILK And thus the fathers teache vs as whatsoeuer golde is without the temple is not sanctified so whatsoeuer sence is without the scriptures althoughe to some it seeme wounderfull yet is not holy because it is not contained in the scriptures The scripture expoundeth her selfe and suffereth not the hearers to erre saith Chrisostome He is the best reader sayth Hyllarie that expecteth rather the vnderstandinge of the wordes from the wordes themselues then imposeth it vppon them CHAMP The sence of the churche is neuer without the scriptures as the sence of all heretikes is which impugne the churche and if the scriptures permitt not the hearer to err as you say in vaine are your expositions euerie hearer beinge aswell able to vnderstande them as you ministers You said not longe since that there are manie obscurities in the scriptures and are they nowe so cleare that they permitte not the hearer to err Doe you not see what absurdities you runne into whilst you wrangle against the euident truth And who I pray you is more like to take the sence of the scriptures from the wordes themselues and not to impose it vppon them as you say out of S. Hillarie then the catholicke churche assisted to that end by the holy ghost PILK To conclude this pointe sith the fathers often roue att the sence of the scriptures vnderstandinge that literallie which is meant spiritually and contrariwise as your owne Bellarmine may informe you you shoulde haue donne well to haue followed the direction of your owne Canon lawe you must not froÌ„ without scriptures seeke a forrayne and straunge sence that so you may confirme it with authoritie of the text as you can but of the scriptures themselues you must receiue the meaninge of the truth CHAMP If the fathers roue at the sence of the scriptures which saucie and vnseemlie terme you falslie father vppon Bellarmine what shall I thinke you will doe Hitt the marke directlie what sencelesnes would that be to thinke that men impugninge violentlie the church which the scriptures testifie to be pillar of truth should be true interpreters of scriptures Knowe you therefore that whilst followe the fathers interpretations of the scriptures which they either receiue from the churche or is approoued and not approoued and not gainsayde by the churche I seekâ— not the sence of the scriptures from without them but in them by them and most conformablie to them and so I followe punctuallie the direction of the Canon Lawe as you aduise me maruellinge not a little that you should geue so good counsell to another and followe it so little your selfe And nowe Iudicious reader woulde I intreate thee to turne ouer a fewe leaues backwarde and take reuiewe of the short section of the manuall sett downe as it is in Mr. Pilkinton and then passe hardlie thy censure of vs both as thou shalt finde cause and ground And particular note I woulde haue thee to take howe pertinentlie and directlie he impugneth that which hâ— affirms 〈…〉 and effectuallie prooueth that which I woulde haue thee obserue thoroughe ouâ— whole dispute MANVALL SECTIO 4. Thirdlie that I expect and exact of him or them that shall goe aboute to answere this teatise the same round sincere and direct dealinge which I haue here vsed Remembringe before all thinges that he sett downe his faith in direct positions and proceed in like methode as I haue donne for the rest To whom I willinglie graunt this large libertie aboue that which I haue vsed that he tye not himselfe vnto the first 500. yeres after Christ for the fathers interpretations but that he take bouldlie 1500. yeres so that he bringe not condemned heretikes for his authors and with all obserue the pointe followinge PILK You may bouldlie sound the Triumphe before the victorie if you may prescribe your aduersaries howe and what they shall answere you which if any of vs shoulde offer to your side we should presentlie be vpbrayded with fortissimi milites that on noe other condition dare encounter with our enemies except we forbidde them what weapons they would vse and take to our selues what we list Neuerthelesse rather then you shoulde complaine that you are wronged if your desire be not accomplished who carrie in your head Ticonius conceipt quod volumus sanctum est therefore I am content to followe your disorderlie order and for the rest of this paragraph doe as Antonie the oratour did who when he came to a troublesome pointe lapped it vp in silence so on the contrarie for the easines of this to passe by itt and proceede to that which is of greater moment CHAMP It is not onlie lawfull but verie laudable and welbeseeminge for anie man to demande equall conditions of his aduersarie which notwithstandinge I haue spared to doe yeldinge vnto you the libertie of 1500. for onlie 500. yeeres which is in anie indifferent mens iudgment ouer great aduantage For the rest of this section I will imitate your example lettinge it passe in silence For I will not be ashamed to followe you where you goe right MANVALL SECTION 5. Fowerthlie that it
shall not be to ani purpose in way of answere that anie aduersarie bringe another interpretation of some father vpon the places of scripture alleaged by me beside that which I haue brought For it is not denyed that one and the same place of scripture may be and is often diuerslie vnderstoode not onlie of diuerse fathers but of one and the same father But if he will say anie thinge to the purpose in this kinde he must bringe an interpretation contradictinge that which I haue brought and withall labour rather to prooue his owne doctrine then to impugne that of the catholickes For seeinge it is as all men knowe a farr more easie thinge to impugne anie doctrine thoughe neuer so true then to prooue the same no truth especiallie of faith beinge so euidentlie cleare but that somethinge with shewe of probabilitie may be obiected against it it is not nowe expected that anie aduersarie should stand to answere those authorities of scripture and fathers which I haue alleaged for proofe of the catholicke doctrine or to impugne the same but rather to bring others in proofe of his owne That the iudicious reader may compare our groundes in scripture both together and by the viewe of his owne eie try whether of them be more conformeable to gods sacred worde And wheÌ„ anie one shall haue produced his proofes for protestantisme in like manner as I haue in the behalfe of the catholicke religion if he can so doe yett shall he gaine no more thereby but an euident demonstration against the cheefest groundes of the protestants doctrine that eitherto the true and full decision of controuersies in matter of faith is necessarilie required some other iudgment or tryall then the onlie wordes of holie scripture or else that there is no meanes at all to end matters of controuersies of faith which latter neuerthelesse to affirme is no lesse iniurious to gods wisdome goodnes and power then to say that he hath prouided no sufficient meanes for men to knowe the way to saue their soules For both parties bringinge scriptures for themselues who shall finallie determine whether of them doth applie the sayd scriptures more sincerelie and according to theire true meaninge PILK Your demaundes doe so crosse one another as if your thoughts had been at warres together First you prescribe your aduersarie howe he shall answere you not by bringing another sence of anie father vppon the place of scripture alleaged by you but a coÌ„tradictorie And theÌ„ you forbidde him to answere either scripture or father vrged by you but to fortifie prooue his owne doctrine But you must be coÌ„teÌ„t whether you wil or noe to suffer your aduersary to vnmaske your fraude and to open the vayle of your cunninge dealing both in your doubtfull positions and impertinent allegations by sheweinge the natiue sence of the scriptures euen from the fathers to haue no concurrence with your imaginations but to contradict them and then he will be content to acquainte you with the groundes of his doctrine which either ignorantlie you mistake or purposelie peruert which beinge paralleld with yours the reader may iudge on which side the truth standeth CHAMP Your head is so full of crochets that you imagine my wordes to crosse one another or else you say so onlie to make your lesse heedfull reader to thinke so vppon your creditt I neither prescribe to mine aduersarie how hee should answere mee neither doe I forbidd him to answere either scripture or Fathers alleaged by me as you are pleased to faigne out of your owne braine which notwithstandinge if I hadd donne yett hadd there been no crossinge betwixte those thinges as euerie man may easilie see but I tel him what manner of answere wil be to the purpose and what will not and further I require he should first sett downe his owne beleefe with the proofe thereof out of the scriptures which two thinges doe not crosse one another in anie mans iudgment but yours besides the reasoÌ„ which I geue both for the one and the other is clearlie good and true For your vnmaskinge of my fraude spare it not in gods name and I promise you that if you discouer but one quarter of those blotttes and blemishes in my face that I haue alreadie donne in yours I will hide it for euer that it neuer appeare in publike more But nowe I will hearken howe you wil performe the greate thinges you here promise PILK But this is no parte of your meaninge at all that your reader shoulde trye by the scriptures as the Bereans did and so rest himselfe satisfied CHAMP My meaninge good Sr. is that the reader should searche the scriptures alleaged by me in proofe of the catholicke saith and trâ—e whether he finde them not so as I haue cited them which the Bereans did Whereby he shall finde the chatholicke doctrine to be trulie grounded vppon the holy scriptures and consormeable vnto them as the Bereans did finde S Paules doctrine to be thoughe they were boundâ— to beleeue his preachinge without that research PILK But your drifte is after you haue sett the scriptures togeather by the eares to thrust vppon him the authoritie of the Pope who must finallie determine on which side the sence of the scripture bendeth and then I doubte not but you shall winne the day CHAMP My drifte is to make the reader see that the catholike faith hath true grounde in the holy scriptures and if you or anie other will shewe the same for your newe doctrine the reader must necessarilie see that he must finde somes meanes to knowe to whether side the true sence of the scriptures doth trulie agree And if he finde that the Pope who is cheife head of all those to whom our Sauiour sayde he that heareth you heareth me geueth sentence for the allegations on the catholicke side as you confesse there is no doubte but he will If he haue anie true care of his soule he will beleeue and followe that parte PILK For thus you carrie the matter when both parties haue brought scriptures for themselues out the letter of the scriptures not opposinge the letter to the sence as you falselie say I meane but seekinge and takinge the sence from the letter onlie Is not this your doctrine in this verie section you cannot denie it vnlesse you haue a face to say and vnsay at euerie turne Cast vp therefore once more your owne cardes and see what other Iudge you make of controuersies besides the onlie wordes of scripture Therefore either blushe your selfe or if your face be so brasen that you cannot bidd some other blush for you that you either vnderstande not your owne doctrine or are ashamed to acknoweledge and maintaine it I knowe to what end is all this florishe of wordes to raise vppe a little smoake before your readers eies that you may steale away and leaue the difficultie which you knowe presseth you harde vutouched you shall not scape so I wisse PILK If then
the scriptures for decidinge thereof no such thinge but he geueth diuerse rules or markes whereby he that is in doubte whether parte to followe may iudge who hath the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures And after one or two rules he addeth this Vt autem manifestius dicam But that I may speake more plainlie they to witt heretikes haue certayne men of whom they are named for the sect is named of the author but wee to witt the catholikes haue not our name of anie man And a little after answeringe to the same question more fullie he addeth What are we cutt off from the church haue we Archeheretickes are we surnamed of anie man haue we a captayne anie particular man as these haue Marcion these Manicheus a thirde Arrius and other heresies haue theire sect masters As Lutherans haue Luther Caluinists haue Caluin and the like And though we haue the name of anie one â—et is is not of the father of anie heresie but of those who are our pastours and doe gouuerne the churche We haue not Maisters vppon Earth as all heretikes haue God forbidde we haue one in heauen Thou wilte say that they pretende the same But they haue a name that accuseth them and giueth them theire names Thus farr S. Chrisostome whereby it appeareth not onlie how impertinent or fraudulent Mr. Pilkinton is in his allegations but also of what moment the auncient fathers esteemed the argument taken from the surnames of sects for the discouerie of theire heresies and false doctrines PILK Loe in these cases wherein scriptures were produced on both sides the fathers fledd for resolution vnto other scriptures where it appeareth your inferrence to be without coherence that if there be not a iudge without the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saue mens soules seeinge that composinge of controuersies reconcilinge of differencies clearinge of doubtes manifestation of truth is not from without to be fetched but in the testament it selfe to be learned that we may knowe scriptures and them onlie to be the supreme iudge from whence decision of doubtes in matters of faith is to be deriued CHAMP Marke iudicious reader whether this be anie other thinge then that which I sayde in this section One chieâ—e ground of the prosestants doctrine to be that the wordes of the scripture are the iudge of all controuersies For the which Mr. Pilk hotly reprehendeth me of fraude and falsehodde See his wordes a little before at this marke †in the margent and maruell at his witt iudgment and memorie Nowe to the purpose Noe one of all the testimonies alleaged by you doth say that where scriptures are produced by both partes they are sufficient to decide the controuersie Thoughe I doe not denie but for the moste part the inequallity is so greate in the catholike partie as it also falleth out in the cause betweene the protestaÌ„ts and catholikes at this day that anie man of indifferent witt iudgment and desire to find out the truth may see on whether side the scripture standeth But that they are not absolutelie sufficient where there is obstinacie on anie side I shall make your selfe to coÌ„fesse thoughe peruerse enoughe or else I shall much marueill that by the verie example vsed by S. Optatus and S. Aug and approoued here by your selfe Put therefore the case that the children of a deceased father contend aboute the inheritance euerie one of them challenginge it as appertayninge to himselfe in proofe or confirmation of his clayme alleageth the testament and will of his father which he protesteth to be cleare for him and against his competitours beinge rightlie vnderstoode persisting most stifly in his opinion and in deffence of his right clayme as he is perswaded The case beinge putt thus which is the verie same with ours in the controuersy of religion will you say in the sinceritie of your hearte that the sole will or testament of the father is a sufficient iudge to decide this difference and to bringe the parties to an accorde And that there needeth not anie other iudge or arbiter to determine vppon the true sence and meaninge of the fathers will whereby they all pretende to make theire clayme and to grounde theire title you will not I thinke say yea to this question And well I wote that were the case your owne betwixte your selfe your bretheren concerninge a temporall inheritance experience which though shee be the mistres of fooles is not for all that a foolish mistres woulde teach you that it is a meere Paradoxe to maintayne that the sole testament of your deceased father could in this case decide the controuersie amongst you his disagreeinge children So that the example brought by your selfe out of the fathers is prooued to make manifestlie against you Which will yet be much more cleare if the case be putt as it is indeede with vs that these brethren doe not only contend aboute the true sence and meaninge of theire fathers testament but also aboute the testament it selfe the one contestinge the whole writinge contayned in the booke vnder the title of his will to be his true testament another not receiuinge the whole contendeth diuers partes and parcells not to belonge therunto And another yett reiectinge more as it falleth out betweene vs and the protestants Caluin castinge out of the testament of God fiue whole bookes besides some large partes of other bookes which the catholikes belieue to appertayn to his true testament Luther reiectinge besides these diuerse other whole bookes The case therefore beinge thus howe is it possible that the sole written testament of God shoulde decide the controuersie betweene these competitors and bring them to an accorde who doe not agree so much as in what bookes or writinges the testament is contayned so farre are they from beinge at accorde of the true sence and meaninge thereof It is therefore no other thinge to say in this case that the scriptures must iudge all controuersies then to say that the controuersie it selfe must be iudge of the controuersie which is more then madnes to thinke For the controuersie beinge not onlie what the scripture saith or meaneth but also what is scripture it is all one to say that scriptures must iudge and decide all controuersies and to say the controuersies themselues must decide all controuersies Againe seeinge you Mr. Pilkinton seeme to geue so much to holy scripture as to be able and sufficient to decide all doubtes and determine all differences in matter of faith Why doe you not hearken vnto them when they send you to the churche and to the pastours and doctours thereof as to liuelie iudges hauinge the keyes of knowledge to vnderstande the scriptures But you desiringe nothinge lesse then to come to a iust and competent tryall of your cause holde your selues close to that principle by which the most detestable vile and contemptible heretike that euer was may maintaine his heresie without beinge conuinced thereof as I toulde you
especiallie to be beleeued Whereupon in another place speakinge of the faith wherewith we beleeue the scriptures he willeth vs to followe those who inuite vs first to beleeue that which we are not able to conceiue that beinge made more stroÌ„ge in faith we may attaine to vnderstande that which we beleeue God himselfe confirminge and inwardlie inligthenninge our mindes and not men This is sufficient to shewe that neither arte nor order requireth at your handes to prooue the scriptures as you disorderlie imagine CHAMP The scriptures or verities conteyned in them are confessed to be principles in respect of all Theologicall conclusions deduced from them and therefore in respect of them they neede no farther proofe to anie christian diuine that beleeueth them to be the worde of God But they are not principles in respect of the articles of our faith in generall but are themselues to be beleeued for the same authoritie of God reueylinge as all other articles of faith are And that they are not necessarie principles of the articles of our â—aith it is manifest by that before the scriptures were written the churche of God beleeued manie of the same articles which nowe it beleeueth Therfore when you say the scriptures or verities contained in them are primae veritatis if ignorance thoughe grosse and not to be excused in a doctour of diuinitie doth not excuse you you will make the scriptures not onlie to be gods worde but also to be God himselfe For besides him there is no prima veritas which is to be beleeued for it selfe as vppon better consideration I thinke you will not dare to denie Seeinge therefore the scriptures are not primae veritatis or first truthe but the testimonies wordes or verities reueiled by the first truthe they are not euen by your owne grounde to be beleeued for themselues but for the truthe and authoritie of the first veritie God himselfe of whose reuelation we must haue sufficient grounde before we canne securelie and prudentlie beleeue the scriptures to be his worde That which you bringe out of S. Thomas maketh euidentlie against you so iudicious are you in your allegations For the scriptures beinge not God they are not the first truth and therefore not to be beleeued for themselues S. Aug. in the first place maketh also against you sayinge that the scriptures are to be beleeued to bee of gods spiritt and not to be knowne For to beleeue this he recurreth not to the scriptures themselues but to the authoritie which they had obtayned throughe the whole worlde The second authoritie of S. Aug. is wholie impertinent to your purpose as the reader thoughe but of meane iudgmeÌ„t will easilie discerne Hee sayinge nothinge that soundeth as if the scriptures were to be beleeued for themselues or without other authoritie And therfore thus farr haue you saide nothinge that may satisfie this assertion of the Manuall that in the orderlie proceedinge in this present poincte the scriptures shoulde first be prooued but you will peraduenture satisfie better hereafter PILK Yett further to satisfy you I answere that the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue theÌ„selues and these and these bookes to be the scripture both by that inwarde light that is contained in them and that outwarde operation that they haue in vs. For first they are a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path a candle that shineth in a darke place And as a light doth discouer those thinges that are in darkenes and demonstrateth also it selfe vnto the eies saith Aug. so doth the holy scriptures by that connatur all light that is in them manifest themselues vnto those whose vnderstandinge is enlightened to behoulde them Which if you cannot perceiue desire God to remoue the scales from your eies as he did from Paules for this is a case so cleare that Stapleton graunteth it credenti scriptura seipsam probat commendat CHAMP All this proueth noe other thinge then that to christians and catholikes who belieue the scriptures to be the worde of God and vnderstand it in the sence of the churche they haue all these properties of light lampe and lanterne and this is it which Stapleton expreslie saith if hou had taken but verie ordinarie heede to his wordes But to say that either to a Pagan who beleeueth not the scriptures to be Gods worde or to an heretike who vnderstandeth them not in the sence of the churche but accordinge to his owne fancie they are such as doe manifest themselues to be the worde of God is a most sencelesse Paradox contradicted by manifest experience not onlie in Martin Luther and all his disciples who as you knowe reiect diuerse bookes receiued by Caluin and his followers but also of the auncient and holy fathers who did not vniuersallie receiue as Canonicall Scripture all such bookes of the newe testament as nowe are receiued by you And yett none of all these I suppose you will say wanted light to see that which is manifest of it selfe PILK Againe they are knowne by theire operation in vs for the worde of the Lorde is pure and conuerts the soule a two edged sworde Heb. 4. 12. a verie fierie worde psal 119. 14. which purifieth the soules inflameth the affections enlighteneth the vnderstandinge and so softeneth the heart of the hearer that it frameth it sitt to all goodnes Which noe other worde or worke deuised by the witt of men or Angells canne doe Where vppoÌ„ LactaÌ„tius speakinge of the differeÌ„ce betweene the doctrine of the gentills of the churche saith that the wisdome of the Philosophers doth not roote out vice but hide it whereas a fewe precepts of God so change the whole man and mould him a newe by castinge away the ould that one would not thinke him to be the same Geue me a man that is wrathfull euill tougued vnbridled by a fewe wordes of God I will make him meeke as a lambe Geue me a couetous auaritious and tenacious man I will restore him liberall and distributinge his money with his owne handes Geue me a man fearfull of sorrowe and death he shall contemne crosses fires dangers bulls c. By one lauer shall all malice be expelled such is the force of diuine wisdome that beinge powered into the brest of man it expelleth folly att one blowe that is the mother of all vices What man then that hath his hearte thus mollified his will rectified his vnderstandinge cleared and his whole course suddenlie altered can deliberatelie doubte of the scriptures seinge Christe himselfe teacheth vs thus to knowe them Is anie will performe the will of his father he shall knowe of the doctrine whether it be good or noe CHAMP In whome I pray you doth the scripture worke these effects you haue here so industriously numbred vp in those that beleeue them not to be true or to be the worde of God you will not say so I suppose Why doe you therefore bring these arguments to prooue the scriptures to be easily knowne to
be god worde that they are manifest of themselues and neede not to be prooued Because you will euer be impertinent not knowinge what you say nor what you shoulde prooue and yet are you so full of bable that you will still be be talkinge If one shoulde aske your aduise howe he might knowe good Phisicke and you shoulde say vnto him it is an easie thinge to knowe that For that phisike which coÌ„forteth nature expelleth disseases and restoreth health is certainlie good phisicke doe you thinke he shoulde be much wiser for your aduise whatsoeuer you thinke I knowe he shoulde be as wise as he was before Such is your directions to knowe the scripture vnto such as doe not alreadie knowe or beleeue them And seeinge our Sauiour himselfe prescribeth as a necessarie rule to knowe the scriptures the performance of his fathers will before his doctrine canne be vnderstoode as you well note but stil against your selfe it is euident that they are not so cleare of theÌ„selues nor yett so easie to be knowne as you pretend For that doctrine which must first be practised by humble obedience before it can be vnderstoode or knowne to be of God as our Sauiour saith of the scripture noe man that is not deuoyde of all iudgment wil say is easie to be knowne euen by it selfe PILK I might add all those arguments which both the fathers and schoolemen produce out of the scriptures themselues to prooue them the ofspringe of God which if they be stronge against gentiles I knowe not howe they should be weake against you vid. the maiestie of the doctrine the simplicitie and puritie of the stile antiquitie of the bookes truth of oracles and predictions that manie ages after held their complement with sundrie other to the like purpose but I passe by them and shutt vppe this pointe with that speeche of your Stewchus CHAMP You were well aduised to passe by all such arguments of the fathers and schoolemen as woulde nothinge serue your purpose I woulde you had been so aduised from the begininge for soe shoulde I not haue hadd the labour and paynes to transcribe so manie impertinencies of yours as I haue been forced to doe hitherto The arguments which you here mention taken by themselues are farr from makinge anie sufficient grounde to builde our faith vppon thoughe they are probable and prudent considerations and ioyned with the authoritie of the churche and tradition wherby â—e receiue the scriptures they are not without some force to persuade the bookes of the holy Bible to be gods worde and to be written by his inspiration But take you experience of them in your selfe and see whether they are sufficient to persuade that the bookes of Wisdome Ecclesiastious and the rest receiued generallie by the whole churche and namelie by the fathers and schoolemen whose authoritie here you seeme to vrge for canonicall are trulie gods worde and written by his holy spiritt And if you finde them not sufficient groundes for these why woulde you intrude them vppon vs as sufficient for the rest But lett vs heare what you bringe out of our Stewchus PILK They which thinke the authoritie of holy scriptures whereunto all the worlde nowe assenteth to depende vppon the readers faith and not to bringe with them certaine diuine and most potent reasons that drawe vnto them the iudgements of greate mindes are therefore deceiued because they are not of theire number whose mindes both by naturall goodnes and continuall exercitation of wisdome doe prudentlie apprehend the highest and truest thinges whereas if anie haue that wisedome geuen him to esteeme the greatnes of thinges as they deserue he shall feele the weight of diuine oracies to be so greate that the pronunciation of them onlie would suffice to begett a most firme and suddaine faith CHAMP The whole space of a thousand and fiue hundred yeeres geuen you to take your testimonies out of might haue sufficed without alleaginge of moderne writers and those oâ— small note and lesse authoritie Stewchus is an author not wholly receiued and the booke cited by you is put in the index of bookes to be amended or corrected and therefore the testimonie thereof thoughe it were otherwise most formall as it is not is of noe authority against vs. And truelie I wounder you are not ashamed to bring such stuffe for the proofe of your faith and doctrine And that in such sorte as you haue lett passe all other and made choyce of this as of moste strength and force Lett the iudicious reader nowe iudge by that which hath been sayde both by you and me whether the scriptures are so clearelie knowne by themselues and by theire owne light that they neede no other proofe to be gods worde and written by his spiritt And whether it he a needles or disorderlie thinge for him that pretendeth to prooue all the points of his faith by holy scripture to prooue first that there is a holie scripture and then to prooue in what bookes it is contayned And lastlie whether because you refusinge traditions and the churches authoritie by which onlie the holy scriptures are knowne cannot prooue the scriptures to be such and therefore receiuinge them vpon the credit of your owne fancie which consequentlie must be the fundamentall rule of your whole Faith doe not recurre to that shifte to say that the scriptures are so euident of themselues that they neede noe other proofe or testimonie but themselues MANVALL SECTION 7. And here occur by the way two thinges worthy of note The one that the scripture cannot be an vniuersall rule of our faith seeinge somethinges are to be beleeued without proofe of scripture as are for example that there is an holy scripture contayninge gods worde and reuelation and that these these bookes be such therefore of necessitie must there be some other rule of our faith more vniuersall then the scriptures and consequentlie before the scriptures And this cannot be but the authoritie of gods churche which is clearely S. August doctrine who was not a frayde to say I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the church doth moue me Seeinge therefore the authoritie of the churche is a sufficient motiue for vs to beleeue what is scripture why shoulde it not haue the like authoritie with vs in other points of faith which is also S. Aug argument in the same place but I will notwithstandinge satisfie our aduersaries in theire owne humour PILK Your former grounde beinge a bedd of sande that scriptures cannott be prooued by scriptures these conclusions that you doe builde vppon it doe of themselues fall to the grounde CHAMP When you shall followinge your principles proue out of the scripture either that there is a scripture or in what bookes it is contayned without supposinge some scripture without proofe then may you terme my grounde to be a bedd of sande and I will also beleeue it so to be But till then I will esteeme it a rock that
other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say