a doubt but wil willingly submyt himself to her iudgemeÌ„t Nether doth it make agaiÌ„st vs that the church was afore the word For it is most certain that the word which afterwards was put in writing is much more auncient For by it was the church coÌ„ceued born bred But this saying of Austine is not to bee obâ—…ected that he wuld not beleue the scripture vnlesse the autoritie of the scripture moued him therto But we must vnderstand yâ— in that place Austine spake of himself as of a Maniche w e whose erroure he was once seduced I pray you if ther rise ani doubt of the truth of any writing to whoÌ„ go we to trie it but to yâ— coÌ„moÌ„ notary to whose custody al writiÌ„gs monumeÌ„ts are coÌ„mitted Neyther therfore doth it folow that the autority of the writyng depeÌ„deth on the witnes of the notarye For of it self it is true though no mortal maÌ„ beare witnesse hereof So truely must we answer theÌ„ which thynk yâ— the authoritie of the holy scripture dependeth vpoÌ„ the coÌ„stitutioÌ„s decrees of the church The decrees of of that couÌ„cels are manye tymes coÌ„trary in this question But all these things shal be more fullye opened in disputation consereÌ„ce I wil shewe only reason confirmed with the autority of certayn auncient allowed fathers Christ himself gaue so much authority to the doctrine of the prophets whom he had sent afore that by theyr witnesse he would confirme his doctrine Paul also suffred the ThessaloniaÌ„s so to do willed theÌ„ to searche the scriptures to know whether he had taught theÌ„ truly Ac. xvii c. xi Peter allowed that selfesame reason ii Peter ii d. xix They therfore which boast theÌ„selnes to be the vicars of Christ the successors of Peter Paule ought not to refuse yesame coÌ„ditioÌ„ Ca. ix li. ii Truely Ierome vpoÌ„ Hieremy sayth that nether the error of the fathers nor of our auncesters by the authority of the Scriptures is to be folowed ChrisoftoÌ„ vpon the .xxiiii. Chapter of Mathew the 49. Homelye erpounding thys place Those that be in Iury let them flye to the mouÌ„taynes sayeth that is those that be Christians let theÌ„ flye to the Scriptures And again Wherefore doth he in this tyme wil al Christians to fly to the Scriptures Bicause in thys tyme since heresy inuaded the churche there can be no other proofe of true Christendome neither any other refuge for Christians minding to knowe the true fayth but the diuine Scriptures For afore it appeared by many signes which was the church of Christ and whiche it of the Gentiles But now whosoeuer wil seke it can by no other meanes discerne which is the true church of Christe but onely by the Scriptures Also he saieth further If a maÌ„ therfore be wylling to knowe the true church of Christ howe should he know it in so great coÌ„fusyon but only by the Scriptures Yet further therfore the lord knowiÌ„g that ther shuld be so great coÌ„fusioÌ„ in the latter dayes therfore doth Christ coÌ„mauÌ„d the those that be in christianitye such as be willing to streÌ„gtheÌ„ theÌ„selues in 〈◊〉 faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…o other thing but the Scriptures Otherwise if they â—…pâ—…e any other changes they shal likely â—… 〈◊〉 â—…sh not vnderstaÌ„ding which is the true châ—…rch and so shal they faâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of defolatioÌ„ which 〈◊〉 yâ— holy places of the churche 〈◊〉 in his moralls writeth thus If whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne as the Apostle â—…ayth and faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the worde of God whatsoeuer is besides Scripture inspired of God is â—…n Also in the Sermon of the confession of faith If God be faithful in al his words and hys commaundementes â—…me and stable for euer done in truth iustice to reiect any thing that is written or to bring in any thing not written is a sweruing from fayth manifest pride Thus much was spoken of the churche her signes authority and succession afore the Lordes and Bishops and diuerse other which heard thesame very attentiuely But bicause hys oration had bin already somewhat loÌ„g it semed good then to entreate nothing of the supper Wherfore Beza medestly excusyng hymself declaryng also that we wer ready to shew a reason of that article and as much as lay in vs to satisfy theÌ„ if they would commaund vs forthwith to doe it When Beza had ended the Cardynal beckned to Spensa to speak and to answere our reasons He protestyng with many woordes that he had long wyshed for this coÌ„ference disputatioÌ„ that he neuer lyked alwaies contrary to those cruel punishmeÌ„ts which had loÌ„g tymes bene vsed toward them answered that those thinges were true which we had sayd of the churche her sygnes and succession If we had so taught and spoken at the first we should neuer haue neded to haue come to this controuersy But whereas we spake of the callyng into the churche he muche maruelled by whose authoritye or by what callyng we entred into the churche and toke vpon vs to teache Forasmuch as we wer not instituted by any ordinaryes neyther they at any tyme had layd theyr handes vpon vs. And hereof he gathered yâ— we wer no good pastors For by ordinary meanes quoth he you wer not called and muche lesse by extraordinary For extraordinarye vocation must bee proued eyther by miracles as the callyng of Moses was who was raysed vp of God to delyuer his people or els by the witnesse of the scripture as the callyng of Iohn whose vocation is plainlye proued by a terte of Malachye you want bothe Whereof it foloweth that youre ministerye is vnlawfull But as concernyng tradytions and the interpretyng of the scryptures yf there ryse any controuersye we ought to referre it quothe he to the ordinary successours as those to whoÌ„ the holy ghost is promised and are appoynted of God for the same cause He brought foorth the exaumples of the olde Priestes and Leuites whiche in tymes paste in doubtful matters gaue the people couÌ„cel to whose iudgemente the people were so bounde to stande that from theyr decree it was not lawfull for them to swarue neyther on the ryghte hande neyther yet on the left And that we had many thinges by tradition whiche no manne doubtes of no not we oure selues As yâ— the father is without beginnyng the son equall in substance to him also that yong children ought to be Baptised that Mary was a virgin after her deliuerance such lyke So he affirmed that those thinges which are descended vnto vs from the auncient fathers albeit they bee not written yet are certainelye to be beleued and no lesse to be allowed than if they were confirmed by the authority of the Scriptures That whatsoeuer is decreed by generall councels is certain and that they can not erre in doctrine But as to that which is cyted out of Austine that the first counsels ar amended by the later that he said neuer
for the layiÌ„g on of haÌ„ds but to proue himself an apostle he did not so much cite his miracles of the which he had great store as yâ— fruite of his preachyng the coÌ„uersioÌ„ of those people whoÌ„ the lord had turned at his calling For writing to the CorinthiaÌ„s he saith You are the seale of my apostleship in that lord Cor. ix Thesame truely say of so gret a nuÌ„ber as by our preching haue receued the gospel agaiÌ„st al the power of maÌ„ nether seke we any other coÌ„firmatioÌ„ of our calling ministery For the power vertue of god hath sufficieÌ„tly shewed it self forasmuch as nether prysoÌ„ fier banishmeÌ„t nor death could stay yesame But quoth SpeÌ„sa shew me but eueÌ„ one example wtin these .xv. C. yeares like to your case Although quoth Beza al hystories are not writteÌ„ yet I donbie not but there may be fouÌ„d som But if ther be none it is no incoÌ„uenience to say that god in our daies hath done yâ— which he neuer did afore Afterwards we cam to traditioÌ„s which SpeÌ„sa made equal with that scripture â—…aÌ„tus preferred aboue it as more certain thaÌ„ it But to the place of Paul which reuoketh vs to yâ— scripturs SpeÌ„sa aÌ„swerd that Paul speketh generally of doctrine Which forth w e was aÌ„swered not of vs only but of an other singularly wel learned maÌ„ which was there preseÌ„t that it is writeÌ„ ther 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Moreouer we said it was new straÌ„ge that XaÌ„tus wold haue the traditioÌ„s more certain thaÌ„ the scripture for yâ— by reasoÌ„ of many interpretatioÌ„s may be vncertayne For what fouÌ„datioÌ„ shal our faith haue if we doubt of it neither is it therefore incertain bicause many times meÌ„ misapply it mangle it abuse it For the truthe abides alway one which though it be somtymes darkned yet continueth her force euen to the last Neither bicause heretikes abuse it ought we therefore the lesse to fly to it What wroÌ„g he doth vs in coÌ„paring of Anabaptistes other diuelish sectes our writings wel testify They admit onely som part of the Scriptures We accept allow the whole they credit new reuelations We say that suche thynges are out of place sithe Christe hath manifested al things fully vnto vs. As to the place of TertulliaÌ„ wherof â—…antus warned Beza twice or thrice to read it I quoth Beza haue read it more than xx tymes am so well assured that you shall finde it as I saye as I perfectly know that you shal neuer finde in Chrisostom that which you in his name haue falsely alleged But do not deny that Tertullian did manye tymes passe his bondes Neuerthelesse if we coÌ„sider towhat ende he spake it you shal perceiue how lightly this which you thynke to make so much with you shal be answered For this was his purpose that we should not in vaine reason with heretikes As Paule couÌ„saileth vs after the first or seconde admonition to leaue them But what maner of heretikes were those Suche as beig conuicted of their heresy by the worde of god tryfled in vayne What were the traditions whiche he layde against them Such as are conteyned in the writinges of the Apostles and pertayn to the chiefe articles of our fayth and which the whole church professed Fyrst therfore we should haue ben coÌ„uicted by the same worde that if we be in any erroure we might thereby bee withdrawen from it But to bee confuted by tradition whiche is neither Apostolical nor yet grounded on their writings that truely is asmuch as to opeÌ„ the gate to all deceite and vtterly to ouerturne the certaintye of oure faith But why doth Tertullian himself vpbrayde the heretikes saying Let them beleue the scriptures if they can do it beleuig agaynst the scriptures except we ought to flye to them and by them confute all errors If these rytes whyche at thys daye our aduersaries haue brought in were Apostolike the churche would alwayes haue vsed them Neither should they haue had so late beginning Now forasmuche as the authors of them are wel knoweÌ„ described in histories certainly it cannot be said that they came first froÌ„ the Apostles Falsly also is the name of traditions refrained to those things which are deliuered froÌ„ hande to hande in as muche as this woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is referred eueÌ„ to those things that are writen TertulliaÌ„ refuteth those that taught that the apostles had not sufficiently instructed vs in al things that thei might leaue a place for new traditioÌ„s as things reuealed by the holy gost Thei are woÌ„t to say quoth he that the apostles knew al but neuertheles put not al in writing In both pointes blaming christ as though he had either insufficieÌ„tly instructed his apostles or els had choseÌ„ such simple meÌ„ as were not able to vtter their mindes in writing For what sober maÌ„ would beleue that the apostles wer ignoraÌ„t in any thing whoÌ„ the lord appointed as maisters â–ª c. To the Apostles therfore we must fly whoÌ„ christ seÌ„t to preach But how shall we be assured of their doctrine but by their wrytings Was not vnctioÌ„ geueÌ„ vnto theÌ„ for this cause that they might deliuer and write vnto vs al things necessarye for our saluatioÌ„ not to leaue vs douting or vncertain And herby is that place of Chrisostom easily discussed which was earst aleged where he saith that Christ left nothing in writing to his apostles Wuld he therfore that thei shuld write nothing No sure But therfore he taught them therfore he reueled it vnto them by his spirit that the same doctrine once written might remain for euer But thei taught somâ—…things which are not coÌ„tained in their writings Neither that truely do we deny But we saie that there is nothing pertaining to our saluation Whyche they haue not left in writing other thiges which coÌ„cerne rites ciuill dyscypline they might easily teach by worde of mouth But because yesame chaunge according to time place they woulde not buâ—… then our consciences therwith As to the obiection of the names of vnbegotten consubstaÌ„tiality trinity baptisme of children although the playne names wordes be not in the scriptures yet the thinges themselues that is to wit the sence and grounde Whereof the names are gathered is playnelye expressed and shewed in the scripture These thinges were long debated and sometymes the talke interrupted Xantus spake muche and affirmed a great while that the virginitie of Mary after her deliuerance coulde not bee proued by the scriptures Neither yet that yong children ought to be baptised Neuerthelesse bothe were proued by the authoritie of the scripture But he ceassed not to bable after the maner of the Sorbonistes as though he shoulde wynne the victorie with triflyng and talking His talke litle liked so honorable anaudience as it that was full of bitternes sharpenesse and stomake Our men in the meane tune modestly stayd themselues And albeit manye of our aduersaries spake at once confusedly
A TRVE report of all the doynges at the assembly cōcernyng matters of Religion lately holden at Poyssy in Fraunce Written in Latine by Mayster Nicholas Gallasius minister of the Frenche Churche in London and then present one of the disputers in thesame trāslated into English by I. D. ◠Seen and allowed accordyng to the order appoynted by the Queenes Maiesties iniunctions ¶ To the ryghte honorable the Lord Frauncis Russel Earle of Bedford and one of the Queenes Maiesties priuye councell Nicholas Gallasius IMmediatly after my retourne into thys Realme ryghte honourable I thought nothyng more requisite than to shewe the cause of my lōg pylgrymage That bothe all menne maye vnderstande why I haue bene so long absente from my churche and also what was the ende of that assemblye where I was and eke what fruite I reaped of my trauayle therein For I vnderstande that sondrye rumours haue bene spred thereof and that manye haue easilye perswaded themselues that whiche they most desired So that in these oure tymes I fynde it most true which long synce was spoken Namely that the people iudgeth and now measure most thyngs accordyng to there owne opynion and very fewe accordyng to the truth Whiche foolyshe iudgements to withstand I counted it paine well spence not onely by word of mouth to certifie my frēdes and familyers but also to put in writting to the sight and reading of al mē the late doinges betwixt vs and the prelates at Poyssye Whiche as symply playnelye so I protest to doe truly and faythfullye As they themselues which were presēte at the doynge therof can witnesse Great sure was the expectacion of this assemblye and cōference And not with out cause For neuer hereto fore in Fraunce were we quyetlye heard or admitted to the defence of our cause but rather without cause condēned banyshed and imprysoned Now therefore it was no maruell yf with thys straūge and sodayn chaūce mens myndes were in greate expectacion had conceyued good hope Especiallye forasmuche as the truthe shyneth of itselfe waxeth so much y◠more mighty as men with greate force and suttelty assay to suppresse it But they must not thynke that we were heard of them which were dryuen thereto for the most part agaynst there willes altogether enforced thereto by the necessirye of common commaundemente For they woulde alwayes either haue vs put to sylence oure mouthes stopped or els referred to there greate God at Trent only necessitye therefore made vs audience Bycause no otherwise the feare of imminent peryls could be repressed nor they thēselues which hate vs most haue prouided for their own quietnes Wherfore al be it they fayned that they were wiling to come to cōference yet they cōtinued with vs only so long as they hoped in the meane tyme they myght well content the Kynge and the nobles and appease the cōmons For to leaue of the seueral discourse al theyr doinges generally but chiefly their departure whereby they brake the conference sufficiētly disclosed what their purpose was Whiche if we consider certainly we shall maruell that we dyd so often come to talke and wer suffred so long to pleade our cause But wtout respecting the councels or iudgements of men we must weye the prouidēce of God wherby he preuenteth al perilles and geueth a happy and lucky ende to doubtfull beginninges For god which neuer faileth those that are his hathe farre exceded our hope and expectatiō For who thought that albeit we wer sent for yet many beyng vnwilling some striuing against it we should be heard at all who sawe not a thousande wyles prepared for vs wherby we myghte eyther be put to death or silence After that we weronce heard with the great grudge of all the bishops who wuld haue hoped for the seconde or third meetyng Who thought not that we were led as prysoners to pleade oure cause And where as moste vniuste condityons were offered vs whereby the Byshops mynded to shame vs and win themselues a glorious victory who thought not that we woulde streyght haue broken of and hauing so good occasyon offered vnto vs woulde foorthwith reasse from conference Yet we chose rather to abyde al perilles yea and to muche wrong rather than we woulde geue any occasyon to breake of y◠conference We gaue vp a confession of oure fayth that is to say of all the churches in Fraunce that professe the ghospell To maintain and defends thesame we wer alwayes readie Or if the bishops would haue shewed forth any of theirs we promised oftē to conferre therof to confute it if ther were in it any thyng not agreable to the woorde of God But we coulde neuer get them together withoute great entreatye or continuall callyng on them At the laste when they neyther coulde nor durste openly to breake of the conference once begonne by the Kyngs cōmaundement they thoughte good by litle and litle to loose breake of For firste from the great audyence in the whiche we were first heard wyth greate companye restrained in a more narowe place we were admitted onely to the number of .xii. where they had a greate companye of their monkes and doctours Neither yet did this order please them long For at the laste the matter was referred to fiue on ether part and yet afterwardes those that wer chosen for them bicause they wer graue and quiet men they said wer neuer appoynted therto by their consent For they thought thē to much bent to peace concord which they hate All these pollicies attempted as it semed in vayn without any aunswere geuing vs or any parte of theyr mindes signified vnto vs they departed But although this labor may seme emploied in vain wherof their apeares eyther no end or els no certain conclusion yet neuertheles herby is made manifest to al men howe great is the power of truth which can be suppressed by no might of mē by no wile nor guile For she feareth her aduersaries she constraineth her defēders and patrones maketh thē to be feared albeit thei are few and smal of force she vanquisheth and rooteth out all error be it neuer so depe rooted she detecteth and chaseth deceites and lies euen as the light with her beames doth the darknesse to conclude although manye yeares she hath lien hydden and suppressed yet at the last she becomes vanquisher of all her foes Which forasmuche as the lorde dailye proueth before our eyes truely we are vnkinde and vnthankefull vnlesse we mindefully weye it Least therefore the fame of these doynges should dye least they shuld be falsified with lyes or blotted with false tales immediately after my retourne I wrote the note thereof and described all thynges euen as they wer done But whiles I doubted vnder whose name I might best publishe the same your honor cam forthwith to my minde to whom for great fauoure and gentlenesse I am much bounden and not I onely but as many els as beyng true worshippers of god are fled hither
to conclude that onely God knowes his elect chosē Yet neuerthelesse we beleue that ther is a holy church whiche is conceiued imagined and beleued not seene For if we shuld otherwise saie thereof would ensue that whiche is most repugnaunt to reason For if the churche be vnknowen vnto vs to what flock shal we stickto be pertakers of saluation when to the Church only Christ extendeth his power saluatiō we say therfore that althoughe that Churche can not be discerned by sight yet when we seeke to what flocke and companye we ought to assocyate oure selues ther be certayne notes wherby we may know discerne yesame namely the pure worde of god and the syncere administration of the sacraments These be the cleare and euident marks thereof neither is there any doute but whatsoeuer these be ther is also the true Church of god Furthermore we say That al those that professe true religiō are charitablye to be counted amonge the number of the faythful vnlesse the lorde do playnely detest their hipocrisy and dessemblynge Whereof Paule giueth vs a manifest president callinge the Corinthians and Galathians faithfull i. Cor. ii a and applying to them the general name of the churche albeit in thē there was great imperfection aswel of learning as life whiche in diuers places he himselfe complaineth For all those that haue any foundation doe not alwaies builde on the same golde siluer and pretious stones onely but also oftentimes hey chaffe and sedge i. Cor. ii c xii In this maner and sort therefore we vse to speake of the church least we should seme to appoint any fantasticall thing or that should consiste in imaginations onely or least we mighte geue any colour to ill disposed persones to deeme vs suche as were in times past y◠Canthares and Donatistes and in this our age are the Anabaptistes against whō we haue oftē reasoned about this question Nowe let vs come to the markes and signes of the true churche whiche is necessary to be discerned knowen sith out of her is no saluation And for that cause Sathan that olde enemye of man hath attempted by all meanes possible to disguise and counterfayte her to chaunge her auncient sygnes and fayne newe in their places Her vncertaine and vndoubted markes we haue sayde to be two that is to wēte the pure preachyng of the woorde and administration of the sacramentes Hereto doe some adioyne ecclesiastical discipline and fruites of fayth And trulye it is necessary that euery flock should haue some head and guyde whō they oughte to obey yf they mynde to liue in safetye but forasmuche as oure owne iniquities often tymes are the cause that we wāt the two last markes let vs content our selues with the fyrst Therefore that the worde of god is the certayne sygne of the churche herby it appeareth that bothe Christe and Peter compare the same to seede Mat. xiii a. iii iiii xi i. Pet. i. d. For the whiche cause also Paule sayth that he begat the Corinthians in Christ by preachyng the worde i. Cor. iiii c. xv Therefore in dyuerse places it is called one foode and nouryshemente this also Christe hymselfe witnesseth to pertayn to his shepe saying that they heare his voice and no others Iohn x. We adioyne hereto the Sacramentes also for that Christe woulde not onelye to oure eares but also to our eyes and the reste of oure bodylyesenses wytnesse his grace And therefore he ordeyned the Sacramentes to be certain and visible signes both of oure vnion with hym and also of charitye and loue among oure selues For that cause duryng the olde Testament it was sayde that they shoulde be banyshed the companye of the faythfull whiche had not the sygne of cyrcumcision And furthermore decreed that all householders shoulde thrice in the yere appeare before the Lorde at Ierusalem by common sacrifyce to testifye the vnitye of fayth and religion Exodus xxxiiii d. xxiii Afterwardes the Vyneyarde beyng spoyled the Gentyles grewe in one bodye with the Iewes not onely by preachyng the woorde but also by the Sacramentes of Baptysme and of the bodye and bloude of oure Lord. Yea and Christe commaunded his Apostles so to dooe saying goe ye and teache all nations Mat. xx ◠xix This is the doctryne of the woorde to the which he foorthwith adioyneth the Sacramentes saying Baptysing in the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost For to baptisme also must we applye that which Paule writeth of the supper saying that what he receiued of the Lorde he deliuered to vs. i. Cor. xi c xxxii And thesame he testifieth in an other place also Namely that the Churche is founded vppon the foundation of the prophetes and the Apostles Ephe. ii d xx that is to wete vpon Iesus Christ who is the summe substaunce of all the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophetes So also must we vnderstande another texte of the same Apostle Where he sayeth that the Churche is a piller of the liuing God a bolster of truthe i. Timo. iii. d. xv Whiche meaneth that the woorde of God whiche is the truthe it selfe dothe staye and vpholde the church or els is placed in the church as in an open and sure fortresse for y◠in her god extendeth his power health to all beleuers Rom. i these are the true and visible signes of the churche Whiche therefore is called the mother of the faithfull for that they wer begotten in her by incorruptible seede and nouryshed and fed with the same fode If the preaching of the woorde and the true administration of the sacramentes be necessarily required in the churche thē muste there needes be pastours teachers to execute thesame As the holye scriptures sufficientely witnesse but chieflye Paule writyng to the Corinthians and Ephesians this was the cause that this thirde marke was adioyned hereto i. Cor. xii d. xxviii Ephe. iiii vi xi i. Timo. iii. a Ti◅ i. a vi Namely ordinary succession from the time of the Apostles Hereto we aunswer that such succession is muche to be esteemed if it be wel considered and applied after the example of the auncient fathers who groūded thereon against heretikes there newe opinions As Tertulian Ireneus and Austine againste the Maniches and Donatistes but because many lay the same against vs as though we had cōueyed into the churches new scismes and heresies it is necessarye that we should shew our minde herein We say therefore that there is one succession of doctrine an other of persōs Doctrine we graunt to be the true and vndoubted mark of the churche as it hath bene already saide For although the doctrine of the Gospell bee not therefore the more to be credited for that it is the auncientest of all other thoughe it happen many tymes for oure synnes that thesame seeme so new straunge to menne as it ought to bee familiar and vsuall yet neuerthelesse the witnesse of the continuall
was in doctrine That there were onely three kept before Austines time â–ª The Nicene councell against the Arrians the councel of Constantinople against the MacedoniaÌ„s the first counsel of Ephesus against Nestorius none of the which was afterwardes amended He denied the history of Paphuntius as a thyng doubtful to be credited and further sayd that it perteined not to the purpose At the laste to geue the Cardinall occasion which seking by al meanes to breake of the conference willed him to entreate of the supper he came to that question and with few wordes entreated of the presence of the body of Christ in the bred And he red to vs certaine places out of the bokes of Caluine â—…aling neuerthelesse the name of the â—…tour saying that he â—…eruaâ—…led if we would swarue from hym to whom we geue most authoritie aboue the rest about the end of his tale he gaue vs those places to read Afore we answered Spensa a Monk of that order that are clothed all in white whose name they say was Xantus stepped forth enflamed with desire of conteÌ„tion And as though he were aggrieued that SpeÌ„sa had talked somwhat grauely and modestly begaÌ„ to powre out his stomake and not able to stay any loÌ„ger wuld not let vs answer til we had first heard him Then he began to repeate those things which SpeÌ„sa had already spokeÌ„ at large sawcig yesame w e scoffes tauntes which he semed to esteme as that greatest ornameÌ„ts grace of his talke For vs he coÌ„pared both to other auncient heretiâ—…es also to the Anabaptists but at the last he became so mad that abusing the authority of the auÌ„cieÌ„t fathers he affirmed that the fouÌ„datiâ—… of yâ— traditioÌ„s is more sure than of the scripture For the scriptures quoth he may by diuers interpretations bee wried sondry waies And that Ciprian with the rest of the Aphricans was deceiued in this that they sayd Christ sayeth not I am that custom But I am the waye truthe and lyfe And that this his saying heretikes dyd afterwardes commonly abuse He alledged the authoritie of Tertullian of the prescriptions of heretikes imperyously euen like a maister of that scooles I will not saye foolyshly willyng Beza to reade the place by hym alledged twice or thrice Tertullians wordes be these They alledge the scriptures and with these their impudence at the fyrst moue awaye Also that the disputation with scriptures nothyng auaileth vnlesse a man do altogether eyther turne his stomake or his brayne And again Therfore we must not appeale to the scriptures neither contend with them by whom there is eyther no victorye to be atchieued or if there be any it is verye vncertain Furthermore XaÌ„tus said the god otherwise thaÌ„ he intended for that was his term deliuered his doctryne in writing abusig the autority of Chrisostom or of the author of the imperfecte work writteÌ„ vpoÌ„ Mathew And falslye touching the proeme of that work wher ther is no suche thyng red For these bee the wordes of the author After that all the people of the Iewes was falleÌ„ into the depth of sin it was necessary that then a law shuld be writen the tables geueÌ„ warning threates by theÌ„ And this we see hapned not only to the holy meÌ„ of the olde testameÌ„t but eueÌ„ of the new also For Christ left nothing in writyng to hys apostles but in stede of writing promised to geue theÌ„ the grace of the holy gost He quoth he wil teach you al thinges Then he added also that not onely the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was geuen of god wherof came al traditions Also for the rule to discerne traditions that not only the word but also the nature custom is to be considred Accordyng to the saying of Paule the .i. Corint xi Nature it self teacheth you And again neyther let vs not haue such a custome neyther the exaumples of the church of god to be shorte he rehearsed the same that Spensa had afoâ—…e spoken Hereto Beza aunswered modestly at large that to haue one selfe same tale doubled of diuers is not mete for that conference or disputation wherein any good ende or concorde should be sought For that of muche matter heaped together the witts of man are confounded so as therof no good thing may aryse but confusion That euen by their own iudgementes if they had at any tyme vsed disputatioÌ„ this order could not be allowed Neuerthelesse he hoped that so farre as his memory would serue hym to reherse their reasons he would lightly satisfy them And therwithal he desired the Queene and the rest of the nobles hereafter to take some better order for their conference First therfore wheras Spensa had sayd that he much meruayled that we toke vpon vs to teache forasmucheas the ordinary successors had neuer layde handes vpon vs he answered that this is not the chiefe signe of lawfull calling For the chiefe and substantiall partes be the inquisition of learning and lyfe and choyse and election These be the ordinary meanes To the which although the outwarde ceremonies of laying on handes be not adioyned yet the ministery is lawful notwithstanding And that we which wer there present to defende our doctrine and the rest of oure felowes waÌ„ted not also the third mark And neded not to stay on that poynte forasmuch as we were both chosen and confirmed For handes were layed vpoÌ„ vs and we lawfully presented to oure churches which accepted our ministery if it be obiected that those of whom we were instituted and which layed their handes on vs had no autority of the ordinary successors neyther were chosen of the people the answere is ready that thinges being in such confusioÌ„ and the ecclesiasticall order disordred we dyd not stay for the layeng on of their handes whose vicious lyfe superstition false doctrine we haue alwayes repreheÌ„ded For in vaine should we haue sought to haue bin allowed of them whiche wyth deadly hate pursued that truth the defeÌ„ders therof And that we wanted not the presideÌ„tes of the Prophetes to whoÌ„ none were more deadly enemies than the Priestes forasmuch as thei themselues wer turned out of kind no longer respected their office therfore forasmuche as against theÌ„ chiefly the lord had styrred vp the prophets they ought not to seke for at their hands the confirmatioÌ„ of that autority which they had receyued of god Nether did they intrude theÌ„selues into the ministery but wheÌ„ thei had once the coÌ„mauÌ„demeÌ„ts of god thei wer coÌ„pelled eueÌ„ with the peril of theyr liues to execute thesame And that thesame we in these our times ought to do also Furthermore yâ— extraordinary calling is not alwaies proued by miracles For that which we read of Moses the signes shewed by him hapned not so in all the rest For by what miracles did Esay Daniel Amos Zachary proue theyr calling Or Paulus afore he did execute his charge Did he stay
reuerende master Peter Martiâ—… added many thinges and according to his singuler learning besides many other thinges which perteine to the order of the church he handled this question also shortlye plainly and eloquently He answered also diuers things which both the Cardinall and SpeÌ„sa had obiected in their orations in the first meting and chiefly those things which concerne the authoritie and amendmente of counsels Which so pricked the Cardinal that he would no more reply vnto hym And whyles he was handling and declaring diuers matters more playnly bicause he spake somewhat after yâ— ItaliaÌ„ maner the Cardinal rose and sayd in a great chafe that he would talke wyth hys own countrey meÌ„ And yet martiâ—… spake so plainly distinctly yâ— not only yâ— Cardinal being skilful in yâ— ItaliaÌ„ toÌ„g but also euery ignoraunt man myghte well perceiue him Spensa somewhat talked to him herefore coÌ„mending him aboue the rest that no man this day liued that had written more largely or copiously of this question than he Afore Spensa was answered a Spanyarde one of those that call themselues Ieswites desired that he might haue leaue to speake His talke was sharp bitter and nothing pleased the audience He assayed to turne al mennes myndes From hearing this cause as it whiche was already sufficiently knowen The suttelâ—…ies and craftes where with heretykes are wont to creepe into mennes heartes he applied to vs. Calling vs foxes and dogges And at the last concluded that we ought to be reiected and referred to the counsel of Trent which the Pope of Rome had proclaymed saying that we should haue free comming thither and the Popes safeconduyte that there the controuersies of fayth religion ought to be iudged of the which wemeÌ„ souldiors or other not exercised in diuine matters were not mete to be iudges Thus as it were perswading the Queene he willed her to send vs to Trent Hitherto his talke although it fauored bitter hate and malice yet to some semed graue and seuere But at yâ— laste he played the foole so kindly as if it had ben in a stage For when he entreated of the Lordes Supper promysed by a playne similitude to proue the presence therein he sayd it was euen lyke as if any Prince when he hath atchieued victory on his enemies to celebrate the remembraunce therof would institute yearly playes whereby bothe his warre and victory might be represented to al mennes eyes And if any man in those playes shoulde represente the person of the Prynce That would so much the more moue the mindes of yâ— beholders to remeÌ„ber it but if yâ— king himself would be preseÌ„t shew hymselfe there then thesame would be most noble and excellent Euen so sayd he that Christ himselfe when he instituted the remembraunce of his passion would also be present and in the same About the ende of hys oration he assaied to enflame the Queene agaynst vs and made many mournfull coÌ„plaintes faining himselfe to wepe after the maner of those iesters which ar commonly apte to counterfayte any gesture Hereto Beza aunswered that the Spaniard talked as though we were already conuict of heresy But for asmuchas no man hitherto hath shewed vs oure error he might haue done much better if he had reserued the scoffes which he bestowed on vs to hymselfe and his felowes Bicause we can not se how they touche vs. And as to his councel that that Queenes maiestie was not so bare of counsell that she neded it But that she and her councell sawe well inough what is best to be done and by what meanes they may prouide for common quietnesse But that which he sayd of the Lordes supper that he made nothing els of than a play of yâ— history of Christ bicause it was to blasphemous beastly beyng ouerpassed he turned toward master Spensa He vrged the playne wordes of the Lord. Thys is my body and the consent of the EuaÌ„gelistes whiche nothing differ therein We aunswered that thesame Euangelistes sayd thys is my bloud of the new testament And an other Thys cup is the new Testament in my bloud Whych without a figure can not be vnderstanded And hereby it appeareth that it is a Sacramental maner of speach Which Austine teacheth most plainly in his .xxiii. Epistle to Boniface If the Sacramentes quoth he had not a certayne lykenesse of those thynges wherof thei are Sacramentes they wer no Sacramentes at al. Of thys lykenesse moste coÌ„monly they take the names of those thyngs wherof they are SacrameÌ„ts Lyke as therfore after a certayne maner yâ— Sacrament of the body of Christ is the body of Christ and the SacrameÌ„te of the bloud of Christ is the bloud of christ so is also the Sacrament of fayth faith it selfe But Spensa sayde that yâ— letted not but that we ought simply without figure to credite the wordes of the Lord. We sayd that a Sacramentall maner of speache coulde not be withoute figure But if there be a figure in our Sacramentes quoth Spensa they shal not then muche differ from the Sacramentes of the old TestameÌ„t which are altogether figuratine And we say that they were a figure and shadowe of that truthe which was fulfilled to vs in Christ Otherwise we must nedes confesse that they were figures of a figure Which is most vnreasonable we denyed that consequence bicause yâ— figures appointed by God in the olde Testament are referred to the truth it selfe wherof the fathers wer partakers but a farre of before the commynge of Christ But we are nye at hande After he was offred for vs. Neither do we say that we are as yet vnder figures but yâ— we nede yet as long as we lyue in this body visible signes and Sacraments and in them we say ther are figuratiue or Sacramentall maners of speache which neuerthelesse proueth not but yâ— we haue the truthe notwithstandinge these signes To coÌ„clude we agree with Bernarde saying Bernard sermone .xxxiii. suê‘ â—antica The truth is set before me but in a SacrameÌ„t The Angel is fed with the meale of the corne or the perfect grayne But I must be conteÌ„t with the barke of the Sacramentes with the brauÌ„e of his flesh with the chaffe of the letter and the cloke of fayth But sure howsoeuer these be tempered and swetened with the aboundasice of spirit and fayth certainly the barke of the Sacrament and the fine boulted meale of the corne fayth and hope remembraunce and presence eternity present tyme the countenaunce the glasse the ymage of God and the forme of a seruaunt are not like pleasaunt in cast Wherby it is well proued that we truely are made partakers of yâ— truthe but do not yet fully enioy thesame bicause oure weakenesse requireth the Sacramente the barke and the cloke After thys communication with SpeÌ„sa was ended there stepte vp an other doctoure one of the Sorbonistes vrging agayne By a suttel and crafty meanes as he thought hymselfe the exposition of these the