for it and all kind of obscurity contrary to such an end But to conclude If Scriptur be indeed so clear and easy for each capacity to read out of them to cull his faith and by them to frame his religion as sectaries pretend and this be indeed the judgment of all reformers wherfore do they themselves so multiply their catechists interpretours and expositours theron to wt end is all their preaching and weekly teaching this if it be indeed to any end must needs be either to expound faith or promote good works if the faith be clear enough the expounding is in vain as for good works they be long ago exploded bannisht out of the land and the empty preaching for aught I know may go foot it after them for words are in vain that tend to no end In fine whence comes all these diversities of opinions amōgst us here in England about matters of faith and religion and so opposit one to another and yet all grounded upon Scriptur Is that way so uniform and easy that leads men so diversly Nor am I satisfied at all in hearing som answer as they do that this coms not of Scriptur but the disorder and mistakes of men so lōg as I see it may wthout the Churches help be so shreudly mistaken I have reason to suspect mistakes in my self too if I once lean upon mine own spirit and industry as others do being my self no better than my neighbours And therfore I am loth nay I shall never be perswaded to leav the secure footing I now hav in all tranquillity peace uniformity wth the Catholik body of Gods Church by the result of truth delivered us by antiquity consonant to Gods word both written and unwritten and run my self with the confusd rout of disagreeing sectaries upon the rock of the Bible so apt as it appears by the event to be mis-understood and and wrested awry that I am clear of the opinion that no man out of the Church of God nor nobody of meē besides the Church of God understands it right Nor shall I be so mad now in my old age to go to dig my self religion having so fair a one already stamped to my hands wch all the art of men and angels put together can never mend Put him in Bedlam that undertakes both labour and hazard for naught LA. Do you think Sr Harry ever to perswade me that reading the Gospell I do not sufficiently understand the story of Christ his birth and life death and passion resurrection and ascension I fear not to affirm that I understand it perfectly and by your favour as fully as is necessary I do also conceiv well enough nor is it hard so to do wt his doctrin and miracles conduced to mankind I am moved also wth the divine discours of Christ and his Apostles Every Sabboth-day I go to Church and hear the word of God preacht I cannot see wt is more to be done he that reads and hears and beleevs the word of life cannot miscarry VIC And I for my part understand all that ever I either read or hear Alas when I was a young girle I was even then so towardly that I could read the Scripture as I ran up and down the house according as it is written write the vision and make it plane upon Tables that he may run that readeth Hab. 2. My husband and I every Sabboth day go hand in hand to Church together like the beasts that went into the ark by two and by two the Male and his Female Gen. 7.2 Surely this is sufficient for the salvation of all flesh KN. Madam you have now toucht upon the main busines wherein all sectaries be most pittifully deluded If they do but go to Church and hear a Sermon each one according to his fansy their duty is done and all his safe I will not stand now to examine whether the preaching be orthodox or no. Be it what it will It will not serv the turn I have already to my ability declared that the reading of Scriptur is no sufficient means of finding out our faith tho so much as it is it doth all of it confirm and verify the Churches doctrin I shall now go forward and evince two truths more First that reading or preaching of Gods word or the hearing therof tho it be indeed Gods word and pure and orthodox is not the essentiall or cardinal work of Christian religion Secondly that a man may hear and read it all his life time and yet be lost at the end both for want of grace and truth Our Lord wrote nothing himself as all men know yet notwthstanding he would never have failed either to have done it himself or commanded others to have done it if reading or hearing had been the great work of his religion to be imposed upon mankind For reading you know and expounding of Scriptur presupposes writing and his great work had been no other than to see things written if our great work had been no other than to read or hear them The four Evangelists afterwards put together some few heads of our B. saviours life and doctrin haply to carry about wth them in their bosom and entertain their converts wthall But we do not read that our Lord gave them any command to do so And this is an argument in your principles that he gave them none at all And as he gave them no order to write so neither did the promise them any assistance in their writing for all the concurrence we find promised either them or their successours was onely for the pectorall custody of their traditions orall doctrine and Church government And therfor since you deny the constancy of Christs assistance in the continuall government of his Church internall beleef and externall doctrin unto wch that assistance was promist affirming that the Church of Christ as it is not in it self infallible so hath it gone astray both in practis and doctrin me thinks you might wth as much ease and indeed more plausibility deny the same concurrence to any of the Churches writings whereunto it was never promist at all nor the Scriptur or writing it self so much as commanded by him wthout whose order nothing of force or autority could be done Nor it is to be thought but that Peter James Andrew and others of the Apostles had been both as able and as willing to write Evangells as the other four wherof two of them were but disciples of a far inferiour rank to the Apostles and indeed but companions and attendants upon them as may be seen in the Acts. Nay if writing had been such a capitall work S. Peter would never have neglected to have writ a Gospell himself especially when S. Mark his pupil and companion wrote one But this is an argument they had some greater work in hand and more nearly enjoind than that was Nor can we find by any monument that any of the other ten Apostles who were sent severall waies
materiall weight The intrinsecall valiew of some articles may infer more of necessity and obligation to an explicit beleef and practis but the least and smallest points do wth as much right as the greatest exclude a positiv misbeleef I am not bound to know or practis all things of the churches doctrin but I am bound not to disallow condemn or reject any of her traditionall Christianity has been equally handed from age to age unto us He that formally rejects any thing of this as fals doth vertually deny all the rest sith one and the same veracity deliverd all No mans privat reason invented any part of my beleef and therfor no mans reason can reject it Nay the highest points ar oftimes most contingent and consequently the least capable of a proof as Gods incarnation passion and resurrection and if mans conceits be once permitted to intermedle determin of the lesser or greater probability of points and cast away at his pleasur what himself thinks unlikly he will undoutedly go on from one negation to another till all be overthrown It may chance that in discoursing I may say somtime that all the articles of our Catholik faith be taken out of Scriptur wherin they be implicitly contained But in this I do but speak wth the vulgar and according to the capacity of hearers and t is indeed true in this sens for that all Catholik beleef is conformable to those sacred writings But in very truth to speak with wise men as well as we do think and ever shall beleev wth them the Scripturs themselvs those I mean principally wch make up the new Testament were drawn by the rule of our traditionall doctrin explicit faith and not our explicit faith gathered out of them This may appear by part of my former discours wherein I declared that the penning of Scripturs was meer accidentall and casuall and that all our traditionall faith was more ancient than Scriptur and altogether independent of it So that Scriptur and tradition go indeed hand in hand together as a joint rule of faith yet so as that Scriptur gives tradition the right hand as being its elder and judg of it self aswell as as cojudg wth it of all other doctrins For both Gospells and Epistles written in Apostles name were so far approved or rejected by the Church however they came equally armed wth Apostolicall names prefixt before them as they were found consonant or dissonant to the churches tradition For ther were more Gospells written than the four we hav and far more Epistles than thos the church admitted to her cannon And this is the reason why the Apostles themselvs and Disciples met together to try whether the preachings and writings of all their missionaries were punctually conformable to the tradition they had received from wch meeting S. Paul himself though an Apostle not of men neither by man but by Jesus Christ and God the Father Gal. 1.1 Yet would he not be exempted from that meeting After three years saith he I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and abode wth him fifteen dayes Gal. 1.18 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem wth Barnabas and took Titus wth me also And I went up by revelation and comunicated unto them that Gospell wch I preach among the Gentiles but privatly to them wch wer of reputation least by any means I should run or had run in vain Gal. 2.1.2 By wch I think it may be gathered that the church is above the Scriptur and of greater autority than either Paul or Barnabas or any wtsoever single man and member of the Church sith she judges every ones doctrin to the approbation or rejection of it For a judg is more noble than the thing wch is subject to his censur the rule than the thing examined and ruled by it and to giv an approbation is in that formality more excellent than to receiv it Neither was ever any generall councell cald together to teach the church her doctrin But upon the rising of heresys judging by the rule of their tradition the Prelats in councell confirmd the Catholiks in the way they found them in and declared against hereticall innovations that they might desist from further commotion This rule of tradition found in the hands practis of Christians disperst over the earth left them by their forfathers could not fail so long as it was found universally agreeing in the whole Catholik body wch is animated by the spirit of infallibility especially being strengthened by testimony of Apostolicall writings wch were nothing but a part of the churches tradition coppied out or the fathers that succeeded them or other monuments that were yet remaining amongst them As for example the Christians found an injunction of praying for the dead upon the very wals windows gravstones and monuments of their deceased forfathers commended also unto them both by teachers their living books and by books their dead teachers and all children found their parents in the beleef and practice of it And therfor it was concluded that it could be no other than as it was thē esteemd an article of pure Christianity sith the whol body of Christians then present held it so their forgoers and fathers deliverd it sacred Scriptures sufficiently insinuated it Catholik writings and monuments confirmd and comended it unto them So that Madam that piece of popery you would take from me being a part of this Catholik tradition will be as hardly wrested from me as the Gospell it selfe wch the same tradition has deliverd as a coppy conformable for so much as it is unto it selfe the first and universall rule of faith by wch pape himselfe and all generall councells are guided so subject unto it that they can act nothing against it as may appear by the proceedings of the Catholik church from its very first birth and uprising unto this present day Pope Iohn the 22d. a learned man much given to reading found in many places of the Greek and Latin fathers as also in texts of sacred Scriptur as he conceived that the souls of Christians deceased went released out of purgatory thence into some place of repose on this side heaven and eternall bliss where they expected the consummation of their number that all the Catholik body might at the end of the world enter paradis together This opinion by the multitud of autoritys and arguments appeard unto him so probable that he sent it to some Christian Universitys to have their judgment if that were not indeed Christian beleef But they rose up against it and rejected it as dissonant to tradition For the Pape tho he be Overseer of the whole church yet being but one single man he cannot of himself discern the universality of a tradition so well as the whole Catholik body may do and therfor he never defines faith but with that Body conciliarly assembled and if himself i th interim should light upon an opinion how probable soever it
of purgatory as well as hell or heaven both contrition and pennance both God and his blessed retinu of Saints and Angels both preaching and Sacrificing shrins altars unctions seaven Sacraments vows Pilgrimages and all whatsoever things the Catholik now beleeves or professes even to the least drop of holy water And if that faith that hath the vertu and power to trample down idolatry to chase away paganisme and triumph over all the power of darknesse be not divine if this good tidings of truth benot the vertue of God and power of God wch is it From this power of converting nations the Prophets of old magnified the word and Gospell of the Messias and S. Paul upon that account cals it the vertu and power of God and yet this efficacy is onely proper and peculiar to the Catholik Religion and non els I shall onely at this time give some generall conjectures in a familiar discours wherby we may be moved to beleeve wt is indeed most cerainly true that popery is no addition of mans at least suspect that the report our reformers give of it sounds like a slander leaving solider and more particular demonstrations for som other time LA. It will not displeas us to hear you speak so that after all is done you will follow our counsell KN. I shall not be obstinat But give me leave dear Lady fully to vent my thoughts For I conceive that a man is not capabl of better counsell till he hath utterly discovered all whatever things detaind him afortime in his sormer purpos wthout any reservation at all For even small reliques of former courses lurking in the mind undiscoverd will still be egging him on to thos waies again after he hath embraced better counsell repine against the advice he hath taken as ruinous and prejudiciall although it were in it self very behoofesull and good So that the mind runs a hasard of lasting disquiet wch enters upon a new cours before the old be totally dislikt VIC I out wth is Sr Harry our wth it fully for so it is written Counsell in the heart of a man is like deep water but a man of understanding will draw it out Prov. 20. MIN. Well Sr let not my argument be forgot wher by I prooud that popery was a human art and therfore in mans power to reform nay t is comendable to cashere falsities KN. You said indeed so but prooud it not not was it ever prooud yet by any tho it be in all mens mouths nor ever will be so long as the world lasts The misery is Sr that men of your opinion that is to say not catholik are all very little verst in our catholik authors especially such as be scholasticall subtile and voluminous love and care I mean wife and children haply not permitting such brain-consuming studies so that when we come to discours wch you t is as equally hard to perswad you as the vulgar of the parish being all of you equally ignorant of the Churches waies and doctrin And yet popery a thing indeed unknown to you must be jeerd at spoke against preacht against and haply writ against too by som pert Gentlman that has never so much as heard a whol cours of philosophy in his life for a whol cours either of philosophy or divinity is a thing now a daies altogether unknown in both our universities and that wth so many impertinencies lies and slanders such vanity fraud and cosenage such insulting babl wresting of Scriptur texts and falsifying of authors that my heart has even startld within me to behold this shamles dealing You say that all your reformations are but the taking away from the purity of Gospell the vain superstructurs of human superstitions commonly cald popery This you say becaus other reformers said so before you taking it one from another since Luthers time and your child will say it from you and so will every bastard in the parish Nor does it avail us any thing by all manner of proofs to assert the divinity and truth of our doctrin Altho you will not read or cannot haply understand those sublim orthodox divins that would fully inform your judgement in this point and convince you of an errour no less notorious than dangerous Yet me thinks there be many things obvious and familiar might render you wary and suspitious of danger in this your asserion wch concerns no les than your eternal salvation As first that you never examend it you know you did not I appeal to your own conscience The Church hath ever beene in possession of this her doctrin and cannot possibly be dispossest but by some evident demonstration wch I am sure the power of man and angel can never effect if you insist on any other autority as sacred scripturs or councells they are as sure hers as any of your proper goods is your own Nor is ther I am confident any one text I say not any one single text of Scriptur if it be taken together wth the whole body scope and intention of the book whence t is drawn that shall urg or proov any thing for any Reformation against the Church this I am able to maintain against the wholl world And yet you ar so far from considering or examining any of thes things that you conclude upon bare hearsay or report wthout either autority or demonstrative reason against the doctrin of the Church wherof she hath been time out of mind in possession and all this slighnes is used in a matter of the highest concernment in the world as if the talk wer onely de lana Caprina Me thinks it should fright you to think that if your assertion should be fals as for aught you know it is then ar you certainly guilty of the accursed sacriledg of diminishing from the word and will of God Again you know and do acknowledg that you have substracted not only some part but the most and greatest parts of that religion was found planted in the land in Harry the eights daies Pray tell me that whol mass or body of practicall doctrin that is now cut off in this year 1655 was it known in King Charls James or Queen Elisabeths days to have been all of it popish additions To this I am sure peopl of severall reformations will give severall answers Independency the last and purest reformation will affirm it but Protestancie the first and oldest apostasy will deny it nor will the Protestant indure that his children should judg him as he condemnd his mother Church or reform his fallibility as he rebeld against the infallibility of his parent And yet the Independent proceeds consequently to those very principles wch the protestant laid for his own revolt namely the fallibility of men the solesufficiency of scripturs and the Spirit of God therin assisting his elect to the discovery of truth Nor can the Independent be blamed for any thing but for striking thes principls further hom than the amphibian protestant did This
and diligence of her councells their faithfulnes study and exactnesse in examining discussing refuting upstart opinions their uprightnes and wisdom in defining confirming the ancient Catholik doctrin against all innovations according to that general oracle of all Synods Nihil innovandum veterum traditionibus standum and lastly the severe penaltys inflicted by the church upon the authours of innovation if they did not humbly recant their errour so that all things considered aright t is as impossible for human innovations to incorporate wth the body of anicent Catholik faith as for wood or stone to concorporate wth the flesh of an animal You would M◠Dr. save me the labour of perswading this truth any further if you would pleas to call to mind how severall Reformers have taunted at the scrupulosity of papists in this kind yea and inveighed too against their severity telling us that popish councels are so scrupulously severe that they question meddle wth and censur things that ar of little or no concernment at all in Religion and oftims pure Philosophy that they condemne good books written by their owne people and those men of sincerity and conscience one can hardly tell why or wherfore that they so enslave excellent wits that they cannot invent or utter any thing that may rellish never so little of novelty that they judg the faithfull and cast them out of the church even for small supposed deviations that they set up inquisitions to prevent and suppresse liberty of conscience even wth un-Christian cruelty And they tell us severall storys of the Catholik churches scrupulosity in this kind of Heliodor put out of his byshoprick for writing his fained Romance of Virgilius displaced in like sort for teaching that ther were Antipodes an opinion in those daies new and unheard of of a Printer that together wth the losse of his place sufferd a heavy mulct for altering one letter wch had been falsly transcribed in that parable of the woman that lost a drachme and swept her house evertit domum the Printer for evertit made it everrit as it ought to be and forfeited say they his office for his pains It is possible that so much curiosity so much scrupulosity and tendernes should so tamely admit of an insupportable weight of popery wthout any disturbance at all nay wth the liking and universall consent of all men God Catholikes are as tender of their faith as of the apple of their eye so that if a friend or kinsman should once take up any noveltys therin we are scandalised at it rise up against him cannot but show our aversion and dislike even wher natur and custom had united us Nor can any one of our country-men broch an heresy but all sound Catholiks will hate him for it and rise up against him forreiners if it ever com to their ears will detest him much more how ever he may draw some disciples after him such light capritious people as will be led away wth every wind of doctrin and som such there have ever been who forgetfull of God and their own safty will leav the rock of the church wherupon they are built to follow the new fangldnes of a proud instable mind the whole Catholik body still resisting and condemning the insolence This is a quality as evident in good catholiks as that a man hath a nose in his face nor needs it proof How then can it be thought that whol Kingdoms and severall nations should submit to the judgment of one proud deviatour be he never so witty ov eloquent as for example all the Prelats of Spain Italy Germany France East and West-Judys Asia in a word all over the world to one haughty self conceited English Priest deviating from the ancient received faith of his ances tours wthout any resistance dislike or noise It is not a thing by a reasonable man so much as to be imagind Nor hath a prelate in one countrey any more power over the prelates of another than wit and eloquence can afford him wch reason and experience showes can never suffice for the bringing of all mankind into captivity to it self wthout resistance and clamour The chief Priest is the fittest to offer this kind of violence and yet how little he is able to prevail in an opinion contrary to the Churches universall tradition appears sufficiently in the fact of pope Iohn the twenty second who propounding to the consideration of some Christian universities the negativ of the soules fineal beatitud till the generall judgment effected no more but a commotion of the Christian world against himself And the thing is remembred and spoke of to this day Wherfor neither covin nor violence can be of any avail to the introducing of innovations by any person wtsoever contrary to the churches custon and tradition Deal sincerly wth me and take any one point of those many wch English Catheliks hold at this day masse pilgrimages vowes pennance absolution reall presence or wt you will and tell me in wch of the Kings dayes between William the conquerour and Harry the eight it was first taken up here or brought into the land look still further and see your self if the same was not beleevd and practisd by the Saxons even from their first conversion untill K. William the conquerours daies go forward and you shall find that the religion the Saxons receivd from Pope Gregory did both in that point and all others agree wth wt the Brittons had receivd two or three hundred years before This I am sure you shal find if you be not wāting to your self How then can you ever hope to perswade me that all or any of these be innovations wherof you can tell me neither the motiv nor the occasion nor the time they were introduced nor the person by whom nor any event that followed theron T is an argument of desperat wretchednes to cast away all practicall religion upon no other account than the bare affirmation that t is popish superstition and popish inventions No Sr the inventions of men in matters of religion cannot be so universall in men and Kingdoms of differing humours and at enmity oftimes wth one another they cannot be so imutable in so many alterations of states and governments as are and have been in the world they cannot be so permanent being both human and unlawfull for as divinity and essentiall truth are therfor eternall and unchangable becaus such so humanity and falshood must needs decay and moulder away contrariorum contraria est ratio It was a golden observation that of Gamaliel a great doctour of law among the Iewes If this counsell be of men it will come to naught if of God ye cannot frustrat it Act. 5. You see by the alterations that happen in human inventions that t is much for mens conceits or fansies to stand unch angd for one age or two all Reformations are by their continuall vicissitudes convinced to be human counsells and works of men
whereas each parcell of the Catholik faith even those you call popish additions have apparently stood permanent for eleaven hundred years together as all men know or may know if they will but read their own history and by this imutability they are convinced to be raies of that unchangeable essence and truth wch is eternally the same But if we consider the promises of God to conserv his church in all truth and for that end to be ever wth it even to the worlds consummation and that it is now granted on all hands that the church hath not been visibly existent in all times and places but onely in and by the Roman Catholik then will it appear altogether impossible that human inventions and falsitys should ever be able to thrust in to that church or go for truths Nor is it les improbable that the immaculat spous of Christ wise spotles and unblamable should by an adulterous mixturs of errours destroy her self We see that an ordinary secular state be it Monarchy aristocrasy or others will never admit of rules that be quite opposit to those in wch she was first founded wherwth she has been fed and strengthend and by wch she has triumphed and flourisht And if she do it she destroyes her self Wch altho it may happen to worldly states built upon human prudence for to do yet I do no doubt but that your selvs and all men will grant mee that the church of Christ was first raised upon divine principles and setled upon the wisedom of God unto eternall permanence And yet if she should admit of all these mixturs she would cease to be spotles and unblamable and consequently cease to be her self In all things much of ill corrupts the good but Religion if it be not absolutly sincere is not properly religion For ther is somthing of good even in paganisme and mahometisme wch no man calls religion but superstition the denomination following the greater and worser part Reading Mr Chillingworths book not long ago I could not but smile in my self to see that flourishing Hixius Doxius so to play dance and triumph as hee does quite through his book upon a supposall himself never prooved nor any yet for him namely that the Roman church had admitted errours in it self We saith he saw and beheld to our grief that the Roman Church had tainted herself wth errours we calld upon her to reform she would not do it in her whole body we therfore being part of that body provided for our own safty we reformd our selves wch was lawful necessary and just both before God and man This discourse in substance for I have not the book now by me to set down just punctually his words is over and over repeated in his book and is indeed one of the chief ropes wherupon that fanatick funambulo dances Such empty words may beguil others not me dear Lady they prevaile nothing wth me Mr Parson they do not indeed nor ever will Ms Persona LA. Come Sr Harry I hope we shal have you in a better mind to morrow We are now calld in to dinner Let 's go MIN. Let us in Sr Harry ther 's the fittest time and place in my mind to talk of religion I never found that dry discourses wrought any great effect VIC Madam a word wth you now they are gone in I marvell your Lap. would talk of to morrow I never read of any one in my life that was converted to morrow Is it not written to day if you will hear my voyce Ps 95. Had you given me occasion I would have done the deed to dav even my self alone LA. How VIC I would have faln a dropping of texts wth him and kept him close to the word of God I am sure where he has one text for him I have a thousand and where he has ten I have ten thousand according as t is written One of them shall chase a thousand ten of them put ten thousand unto flight Deut. 32. I like not human discours t is tedious to me I have fild al my bible wth dogs ears for good Sr Harries sake and could not come in handsomly to use any of them all this while by reason of his redious oratory Indeed I needed not to have bent down any one leaf at al opening my bible at random I should be sure to meet wth somthing against popery every chapter every verse cries it down Open it Madam and you shall find so much Read The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans Paul a servant of Iesus Christ Rom. 1. Look you there The Epistle not a legend of Paul not of Peter the Apostle not the Pope to the Romans not to the Romish papish or popish he would never write to them I warrant him O the father I 'am even as full of scriptur as a new layd egge as they say I could confute Sr Harry before dinner com up yet as near as it is LA. Sr Harry is not here now VIC Altho he be not Well Madam ther coms not a dish to the table but I le have a text for it from the very first dish of porredg to the apples and chees LA. Well well VIC Madam I could wthout the help of scriptur have mentiond twenty innovations that Papists have made in the world had I been incouraged to speak LA. What I prithee VIC The sect of Quakers lately brought up here in England is I think an innovation in religion And this was instituted by two fryars and two Iesuyts as Mr Prinne witnesseth in a book of his lately set forth for that very purpos For thou Mr Prinne be said to be a man of an ill hearing yet is that defect recompensed by a fair length of language his text is so orthodox that the Ministers have preacht upon it all England over and illustrated it by pretty similitudes as of those nine and thirty papists that flew over out of Lincoln shire into Norfolk amongst a flock of wild gees to pick up their corn for wch crime their houses wer ransackt of seaven other papishes that taught children to speak wth their elbowes against wch innovation of nature our Ministers inveighed bitterly in their pulpets of three more papists that walkt in the ayr all over the citty of London passing from steeple to steeple at a step and pist fire as they went upon the top of houses wch our Ministers wer stark mad at preacht violently against thē out of the Revelations saying that if they were not rooted out of the land they would sindg al their caps fire their hayry scalps as they stood in their pulpets Many other pretty remembrances they had wch have been recorded by Mr Pyn and Prinne Mr Iohn an okes Will stiles wherat people beat their breasts shaked their heads cryed Out upon these wicked papishes t is pitty they are suffred to live LA. I beleev papists will not own these things VIC They must own them whether they
put both the Byshopricks into one and gave him beath together Wine and wife are to mee as Bath and Wells Let me have beath as the Scotchman said VIC Go your wayes go Wer it not that you cast a glance of your eye now and then upon me when you ar in your pulpet you would be but a dry preacher T is even so Madam LA. Even so be it THIRD DIALOGUE VIC LO I com according as it is written Psa 40.9 Dear Madam good morrow to your Lap. It seemes I am the first to day somewhat earlier than ordinary but so it is written Thou shalt heare my voyce betimes in the morning Psa 5. O Sr Harry wellcom wellcom you could not stay long from us when both the spirit and the bride say Com Rev. 22. I le be the spirit for once especially when I am got up in a morning out of my bed And why not I pray you sith the very ruler of darknes when people are got up for conformities sake transforms himself into an angel of light 2. Cor. 11.14 KN. Health and happines attend my noble Lady this day and ever It pleases my eye Madam to behold the chear of your countenance this morning wch seems to promis to my purposes a good succes LA. I doubt not of good successe both to my wishes and your own if you will but relent a little of that hardnesse and obstinacy is in a manner naturall unto Papists I would not Sr Harry proceed so rigorously as to request you all at once to abjure the whole body of popery but to let fall at first the super fluous parts of it that do hāg looser on and be of least concernment and use and to stand so disposed as to think obstinacy unhandsom in any thing Papists say truely that they are built on a rock I think all their whole church is rock for one may as soon wth his teeth bite off a piece of marble as wrest from them any of their very least opinions so firm tenacious and obstinat ye be all of you Nay to save a whole Kingdom you will relent nothing at all What a masse of money did Harry the eigth spend for six yeares together in Embassadours and agents in Italy France Spain and Germany to procure the testimonys of Universityes and yet he was not able either for love or money although he were a magnanimous noble Prince to purchase so much as the hands or consent of any one University for the lawfulnesse of his affection to his sweet Lady Anne Bullen And the popes Cardinals although they received no small weight of good English gold from our Princely Harry insomuch that they could have wisht he had had his fill of her yet would they not be brought by any means to say he might lawfully do it Your Popes themselvs tho I confes they have been many of them very holy and learned personages yet som of them hav been known to be as bad as the worst and yet even thes have been as Zealous of the integrity of their faith as the greatest Saints and would sooner do ill than say it might be done Simony Pride Gluttony known and acknowledgd sins these some of them would act of their own accord but all the power of earth summond together should not force any of them to abrogat one article of their faith or traditions though it were but the sprinckling of holy water I read not long ago in an authentick story that the nobls and Prelats of England perceiving the resolution rage of K. Harry upon the forementiond affront certified the Pope by a privat Embassadour that if he did not some what relent and condescend to the Kings desires the whole frame of Catholik Religion in England wch already crackt would be utterly overthrown the nobility disgraced monasterys ruind Byshops deposed thousands imprisond and perhaps martyrd and the whole land undon To wch the pope replied frantick man as he was though the whole body of Christs church should be destroyed yea tho heaven and earth should mingle together in its old Chaos of confusion yet would he not declare that lawfull wch in conscience he thought was not so What a crabbed perversnesse was this He was certainly no Gentleman S ◠Harry that would not be perswaded tho heaven and earth should come together to chang his judgment KN. To be obstinat and heady in our own proper opinions is oftimes unseasonabl and unhandsom But the tradition wch the Church preservs is the very depositum of our B. Saviour whether it concern faith or manners practicall or speculativ beleef and no conceptions of privat or human judgments and therfor in al honesty to be preserved entire by the trustee of our Lord who committed it unto his church wth this caution that not one jota or apex therof should be altered And therfore that Pope who would not declare against his conscience although heaven and earth should com together did no more than what his Lord and Maister had said before him Heaven and earth shall pass away my word shall not pass not one jota orapex therof Luc. 21. And it was a doubl madnes in Harry the eigth doing himself evil to expect the church of God should say it was good Nor be there Madam in Faith any superfluous parts but the whole body of it hangs so cōcatenated and cemented together that the taking away of any one particl would ruin the whole fabrick nor will you find in faith any portion less strong than another but al equally invincible Som may be more leading points wherupon others depend and more materiall in their quality but in respect of our beleef the least hath as much firmnes of truth as the greatest And wtsoever sophistry may seem to shake any one apply the like engin to any other and in shall do as much that is to say in very truth nothing at al whatsoever it may appear to do in self beguiling minds Wherfore Madam bereaving me of any of my faith you rob me of all for it is an uncontroulable rule in faith what the Apostle also does as in a good sense it may be applied unto manners Qui delinquit in un◠factus est omnium reus Jam. 2.10 He that fails in one is made guilty of all This you would easily understand if you would consider how we receivd our faith and Christian doctrin For it was all equally handed to us at once and that from the autority of one and the same originall and it was extant in the world before any Scriptures were pend And these sacred Scripturs and other pious Books and also all generall councells that hav ever been celebrated in the Church were formed afterwards directed swayed rectified and ordered by this rule of Traditional doctrin committed to the Church and kept by her So that issuing conformably from one and the same sours all points of faith have an equall proportion of truth however they may differ in their own
of no naturall thing therfor they coupled openly like dogs III. Simon Magus the Nicolaites Adamites Waldenses that the promiscuous use of women is lawfull IV. The Bogards and Beguines that a kiss is a sin but copulation is not V. The Adamites that corporall nakedness is to be used and therfor they walkt and prayed naked calling their congregation Paradise VI. The Valesij that no man can pleas God except he be gelt and made an eunuch VII Severus that wine is unlawfull and the vine sprung up from the earth and Satan VIII Tatianus that it is not lawfull to eat flesh at any time or for any necessity and according to the Catharists neither eggs chees nor milk IX Iovinian that a man upon any day may lawfully eat any thing either egges or flesh in Lent or upon good friday X. The Discalceati as S. Austin calls them that no Christian man may wear shoos Lastly the naturall liberty of mans free will is quite taken away by Bardesanes Manicheus Abailardus Wicleph and Iovinian said that no man can do amiss after he has received the grace of Baptism As for things and actions politicall I. The Waldenses and Wiclevists maintained that we must not obay to any power upon earth II. Basilides if any power raise a persecution against Christians that we are rather to deny Christ than suffer martyrdome III. Petilianus a Donatist that t is a comendable martirdom for a man to kill himself IV. The Waldenses that no man can be justly put to death by any autority V. Joannes Parvi that a tirant may lawfully be murdred by any vassail and that of his owne privat autority notwthstanding any oath to the contrary VI. The Waldenses that it is never lawfull for Christians to take an oath VII Priscillanus that Christians may lawfully forswear themselves VIII Luther that t is lawfull in no case for Christians to demand before a judg any reparation for an injury IX Manicheus that t is never lawfull to wage war and Luther that t is unlawfull for Christians to fight against the Turk X. Som Greeks that t is lawfull to cheat our enemies and that usury is no wayes unlawfull XI Diotrephes in the Apostles time that Hospitality is not to be showed to strangers especially Catholik Priests XII Willielmus de Sancto Amore and Wicleph that monks and Religious men are not to have any food but what they get by manuall labour as on the other side the Psalliani Euchetae or Enthusiasts erred no less in affirming that no manuall labour was lawfull for them as also the Waldenses that no perfect man ought to labour wth his hands in the common wealth These be the chiefest extravagancies I find concerning Christian actions morall naturall and politicall VIC O Sr you have made too much hast and crowded these brave spirits too close together Great wits love freedom cannot indure to be straitned Your speedy narration makes them thrust and crowd trample upon one anothers heels as the herd of swine in Gospell wch the devills drave head long into the Sea In this great hast of yours I have let slip not onely their opinions but their very names But so it is fulfilled that is written of you I said in my hayst All men are lyers Psa 116. KN. To bring my speech to a period The Catholik Church an indulgent mother as she could not but be affected to see children that came from her own bowells bandy and rise up against her so tumultuously from time to time so hath she showed no less industry and watchfullnes to repress them all being her self still peremptorily resolued not to depart whatsoever should happen so much as an apex or jota from the word she had received And truly her majesty and power appears in that she still livs to see all her rebells under her feet however through the frailty of revolting men they may grow strong and multiply somtimes for two or three ages together in some parts of the earth against her I shall ever love and reverence this divine integrity wisedom and power of the Catholike and immaculate spous of Christ wch can neither tamely let fall the truths she has received nor yet by violence be forced out of her right Indeed besides the generall honesty whereby she stood obliged as a depositary to keep unalterable and entire all the whol tradition committed to her custody the Paradoxes of Sectaries were so dissonant for the most part to right reason morall justice piety that the wisedome sobriety and faith of the Church Catholik could not in any sort comply wth them though she should sink under the persecution of Apostates Nor had she more reason to comply wth any one than all according as they rose and so she should ever and anon gainsay herself do and undo say and unsay affirm and deny the very same things for fectaries were quite contradictory to one another Nor by this time had she kept any considerable portion of that body of tradition she received from her Redeemer wth the threat of a heavy curs on him should dare to altar or diminish from it Let him be accursed that loves it the spous of Christ is blessed and so united wth her head that she cannot depart from the truth emboweld wthin her breast and as it were identified in herself There is morover one thing I could wish you take notice of That the whole heap of Reformation begun by Luther this last age and made up by the additions of whosoever will do it is but onely so many severall hand fulls of execrable ashes taken out of the urns of condemnd Hereticks long ago deceased as for example LA. Nay Sr Harry if you mean to speak any longer at this time you shall talk to the carpet The weather is cold and our howr past Besides dinner is not to be lost VIC Indeed as it is written There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink and enjoy the fruit of his labour Eccl. 2. MIN. These extravagant opinions were doubtles hereticall in the first Authours not afterwards in us Plures cum faciunt idem non est idem LA. Let 's go let 's go VIC Let them go Madam ther 's not a dish brought to table yet I do assure you t is twenty pittyes time is so far spent I have somthing to say would have made Sr Harry blush a whol half howrs talk Madam LA. When we are set at table I shal giv you occasion Mistres to utter it VIC Sr Harry if you observd so much in his Catalog of errours made mention of many that by those opinions were cut off from the Papists excomunicated having been aforetime of their number but the standing body of Papists he accuses of no errour at all But Madam I have gathered nine and thirty Articles wch they hold contrary to truth LADY Those that wer made in K. James his days VIC No no of myne own
observation wch I noted at times in my own privat reading never before taken notice of by any LA. So much the better for new things do excite attention VIC First you know that the Papish church sends forth her Priests and Religious to reduce nations from paganism and conveigh their faith up and down the World contrary to expres Scriptur Hast thou faith have it to thy self Rom. 14.21 II. Christ sayeth When thou dost fast anoint thy head wash thy face Math. 6.17 Papists never observe this nor do they think themselves bound in Lent ember other fasting days to put painting or black patches on otheir face to curl and powder their hayr anoint their head with jessamy butter spiknard other sweet ointments but the Gospell is neglected by them wthout any fear or conscience at all III. They hold that no body should forsake their religion directly contrary to Gods will The Spirit saith expresly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith 1. Tim. 4.1 God sayes some shal they say they shall not and by their good will they would let no body do it IV. They hold that the virgin Mary was taken up soul and body into heaven and would perswade us we shall be so too yet truth says that flesh and blood cannot in herit the Kingdom of heaven 1. Co. 15. V. They will tell you punctually on what day of the month Easter Christmas or any holiday happens Of such t is written Ye observ days and months and times and years I am afraid of you least I have bestowed labour in vain Gal. 4.10 VI. Such of them as be strong and healthy fast in Lent if any be sickly he eats flesh contrary to wt is writtē He that is weak let him eat herbs Ro. 14.2 VII T is written If thine enemy hunger feed him if he thirst give him drink Rom. 12.20 here the Papists commit two errours first they hold that a man may give both meat and drink to one that is hungry secondly they will do this not onely to their enemyes but neighbours and friends VIII They bring the Virgin Marys Pictur into the church wth a child in her arms tho they cannot but know that she stiles herself the handmayd of the Lord and t is written Cast out the Bondwoman her son Gal. 4.30 IX Papists will have the church forsooth to teach us our Religion and faith But it is written Wo unto him that saith unto the wood Awake and to the dumb stone Arise it shall teach Hab. 2.19 Is the church any thing but wood and stone T is flat idolatry thus to worship wood and stone and the works of mens hands Wo unto them for it X. They teach that righteousnes pleases God sin displeases wher as indeed they are both equally reprovable When the comforter is come he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousnes Io. 16.8 XI You know Madam we sit in our pews all service and Sermon time wthout uttering word nor can any discern our lips to stir all the while but the Papist women as soon as they enter their churches down they fal on their knees so long as they remain there patter forth prayers you may see hundreds of their lips moving together somtimes you may hear them cry Jesu Jesu I dare swear they speak in the church their religion teaches them to do it contrary to what is written It is a shame for women to speak in the church Cor. 14.34 XII They hold that both prodigality covetousnes in respect of our own goods fornicatiō leache ry in regard of our own bodys is unlawfull contrary to expres Scriptur Is it not lawful for me to do what I will wth mine own Mat. 20.15 XII They hold that they abstain from all kind of flesh in Lēt yet they eat fish c. not understāding the Scriptur Ther is one kind of flesh of men another of beasts another of fishes another of birds Co. 15.39 VIC XIII LA. Nay thirteenthly fourteenthly be words too long we have not time to proceed sweet mistres you hear I am cald VIC Many are called but few ar chosen saith the Scriptur Give me leav but to say over my nine and thirty articles LA. They will serv for good discours at table how come they to be so many VIC Articles against popery can never be more or les than nine and thirty K. James could have made his up to forty if he had pleasd but they must be no more than nine and thirty nor yet no les according as t is written Of the Iewes receivd I forty stripes save one 2. Cor. 11.24 LA. You are so witty VIC A parsons wise must needs be witty as t is written He that walks wth a wise man shall be wise Prov. 13.20 It should be she that walks but the Scriptur is compendious and somtimes leavs out a letter nay somtimes a whol syllable as in that saying God made man upright Eccl. 7.29 Ther man is set for woman for t is wel enough known that Adam had a stitch in his side and so went up and down stooping LA. Let us carry in your nine and thirty articles to the table VIC For S. Harry now and then to bite upon according as t is written man livs not by bread alone LA. Enough enough VIC So indeed it is written Luc. 22.38 Satis est It is enough FINIS