list but haue no cause R. VVas not your Father and Grandfather and their Fathers before them for many ages Papists C. What of that they who in regard of time and truth were long before them and should be followed as Fathers to vs and them both were Protestants R. That is but a shift of your owne C. It is no shift it is a truth and you shall see it your selfe if you will consider who were Pauls Fathers whom he saies he followed in the worshipping of God R. What were the names of his Fathers were I cannot tell but I see they haue been Israelites of the Tribe of Beniamin C. We haue not that to stand vpon what they were for their persons or names either but what was their Religion remember you not that hee sayes himselfe he was brought vp at the feet of Gamaliâ—l R. Yea I doe C. Tell mee now of what Religion was Gamaliâ—l R. I see he hath been a Pharesie C. And think you that Saint Paul when hee made his Apologie worshipped God after the manner of Pharesies R. I thinke it not C. How then sayes hee that he worshipped God after the maner of his Fathers seeing his Fathers were Pharesies R. I thinke he meanes not of these fathers who liued last before him but transcending them he passes vp to his elder fathers Abraham Isaack Iacob C. Was hee not then wrongfully accused of noueltie as one who had forsaken the religion of his fathers because hee forsooke the Religion of such Fathers as liued last before him R. I thinke so indeede His Apologie cleares him sufficiently both of heresie and noueltie which his aduersaries would haue imputed to him C. Now Sir I haue you where I would why should not the like Apologie cleare vs in the like case for albeit we haue foresaken the heresies of Papistrie maintained by them that liued last before vs yet doe wee worship the Lord our God as these fathers did whom Iustin Martyr callâ—s Patres Patrum whom with him we will prefer to any posterior fathers whatsoeuer R. That cannot be seeing it is known it is not threescore yeers since your Religion came into this Country C. No Sir I will make known to you that it is 1500 yeeres since this same Religion preached and professed now was then preached and professed by our Ancient fathers The first Religion that euer we had was gentilisme our fathers worshipped Diana the Sun the Moone the Starres R. That was a pittifull blindnesse C. So it was indeed but in the first hundreth yeere we embraced Christianity and eight hundreth yeere after Christ we were infected with Papistrie and now againe hath God called vs by the light of the gospel to our ancient Religion of Christianity whereby wee worshippe the Father in his sonne according to his word and no other way R. You speake faire enough to it be as it will but if it be true that you say then would you be in communion with the Catholike Church C. And so thanks to God we are reioycing as I said vnto you that the Lord by his Gospell hath called vs to bee Christian Catholikes R. That is alsoâ— a new stile of your owne that you will bee called Christian Catholikes C. If you were acquainted with antiquity you would not call it new with many such nouelties you charge vs which are indeed ancient truthes it is eleuen hundreth yeeres since in the seuenth Councell of Carthage professors of the Gospell were called Catholike Christians R. But to let the style passe how can you say you are in coÌ„munion with the Catholike Church seeing you haue made separationâ— from the Romane Church and refuse to bee stiled Roman Catholikes C. The Romane Church in her best estate was neuer more but a member of the Catholike Church and there is no more reason to cal the Roman church the Catholike Church nor to say that Rome is all Italy or Paâ—â—s is all France but now seeing the Roâ—an Church hath plaied the Whore made a shameful Apostasie from her first estate wee haue done no wrong in seperating from her but for our warrant haue Gods owne Proclamation commanding vs to doe so R. Where haue you that Proclamation C. There it is Come out of Babell my people R. But no word is there of Rome C. I shall proue to you that this Babel is Rome and your own Doctors cannot deny it R. If you make all good you haue said I will say no more but there is many one beguiled C. If you will heare mee by Gods grace I shall make it good R. I will not refuse to heare you and I trust also to answere you C. It is not me you shall hear but the voice of the Gospell which if it were heard at Rome I am of that mind the Popes kingdome should not long continue R. It will bee hard for you to get hearing there C. And why since Sodomits there haue their brothels and Iewes haue their Synagogues wherein they curse Christ why may not Protestants bee tolerated to haue a Church wherein to preach R. Good sooth they loue you worse then any of them I thinke it true for onâ— Deuill can dwell well inough with an other yea a legion of them in one man but none of them will giue place to Christ. But tell me how long God willing mind you to stay in this towne R. I hope to be in it all this weeke C. Then I pray you let vs spare euery day one howre or two for conference and I will come to you to your owne chamber R. Agreed am I and let our conference to morow continue about antiquitie for I think it somewhat strange that you should pretend it C. Well let it be so THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning Antiquitie in General R. WElcome Sir I see you are a true man and keepe promise C. What I am not in good faine would I be R. Thinke you not best we begin where wee left yesternight C. Yea indeede R. What say you then of Antiquitie will you not graunt that to bee the true Church which hath the most auncient Doctrine C. That is a thing out of all question the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace and beleeue to be most true R. You will myre your selfe incontinent for these which yee call corruptions in the Church of Rome some of them will be found a thousand yeares old C. What is that to the matter Seeing the truth whereby we condemne these corruptions will be found elder then they and wee to speake with Vincentius wil euer preferre the olde Faith to new vnfaithfulnesse for if you thinke this a good Argument Such a doctrine or ceremonie should be receiued because it is one thousand and two hundred yeares old then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must bee receiued for a truth because they were taught by him one thousand and sixe hundred yeares since R. But said you not euen now you would acknowledge that to
yeare Thetgandus Episcopus Treuirensis Pontificem Romanum Antichristum lupum vocat Romam Babylonem Cùm sis seruus seruorum dominus dominantium esse contendis libidine dominandi in praeceps â—bis quicquid tibilibet licet fucusque factus es Christianis There hee calles the Bishop of Rome Antichrist a Wolfe a vsurper of domination a deceiuer of Christâ—ndome and Rome he calles Babylon And the like at that same time was testified by Guntherus Episcopus Coloniensis ad Nicolaum Pontificem Romanum Tu pontificis personam praete fers at tyrannum agitas sub cultu pastoris lupuâ— sentimus titulus parentem mentitur tu te factis Iouem esse ostentas quum sis seruus seruorum dominus dominantium esse contendis Bernard saith Bestia illa in Apocalypsi cui datum est osloquens blasphemias bellum gerens cum sanctis Petri cathedram occupat tanquam leo paratus ad praedam The beast spoken of in the Reuelation hauing a mouth speaking blasphemies and which Warres against the Saints is now gotten into Peters Chaire as a Lion prepared for his prey What thinke yee of these words R. What should I thinke for my owne part I maruaile that the Pope did not burne Bernard for an hereticke C. So you may But heare yet moâ—e Ioâ—chimus Abbas who liued three hundred yeres since saith Antichristus iamdudum natus est Romae altiùs extolletur in sede Apostolicá Antichrist long since is borne in Rome and shall bee aduanced yet higher in the Apostolicke seate Franciscus Petrarcha Archdecon of Parma who liued in the thousand three hundreth and fiftie yeare Epist. 5.14 17 18 19 c. Compares the Pope to Iudas who betrayed Christ with a kisse his Clergie to the Iâ—wes who said to him Aue Rex Iudaeorum His Prelates to the Phariâ—ies â—ho in mockerie clothed him with Puâ—ple and after crucified him And againe Denie it now if thou canst That thou art shee whom S. Iohn saw in the spirit sitting vpon many waters Thou art shee and none other that Babylon the mother of the whoredomes of the earth drunken with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus thou art shee which hast made all Kings of the earth drunken with the Cups of thy poyson In the thousand and three hundreth yeare lib. 2. cap. 5 In Synodo Reginoburgensi habita est haec oratio â— quodam Episcopo contra pontificem Romanum Sub Pontificis maximi titulo pastoris pelle lupum saeâ—isâ—mum nisi caeci simus sentimus Romani slamines arma in omnes habent Christianos audendo fallendo bella ex bellis serendo magni facti oues trucidant occidunt pacem concordâ—am terris depellunt intestina bella domesticas seditiones ab inferis eliciunt indiès magis ac magis omnium vires debilitant vt omnium capitibus insultent omnes deuorent vniuersos in seruitutem redigant c. Ingentia loquitur quasi verò Deus esset noua consilia sub pectore volutat vt nouum sibi constituat imperium leges commutat suas sancit contaminâ—t diripit spoliat fraudat occidit perditus ille homo quem Antichristum vocare solent in cuius fronte coâ—tumeliae nomen scriptum est Deus sum errare non possum in templo Dei sedet longè lateque dominatur In the thousand and foure hundreth yeare lib. 1. cap. 4. Iohannes vicesimus tertius wrote vnto the Oriental Church an Epistle declaring that there was but one Christian Church onely and that hee was head thereof and the Vicar of Christ The Grecians wrote backe to him this answere Potentiam tuam summam erga subâ—itos tuos firmiter credimus superbiam tuam summam tolerare non possumus auaritiam explâ—re non valemus Diabolus tecum quia Dominus nobiscum Thy great power ouer thy Subiects we firmly beleeue thy surpassing pride we can not tolerate thy auarice wee are not able to satisfie the diuell is with thee for the Lord is with vs. R. God be mercifull to vs. C. Amen Now Sir I must craue your licence for some friends are attending mee with whome I appointed to meete this houre R. Good reason but before you goe I would fain he are an answer to two questions which commonly they demand C. Which are those R. The one is Where was your Church before Luther the other Are all our fathers damned C. With a very good will But if you please deferre the conference concerning them till to morrow R. Let it be so now the Lord bee with you THE FIFTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein the common question of the Aduersaries is aunswered Where was your Church before LVTHER C. NOw Sir you remember you propouÌ„ded two questions to me yesternight R. It is very true and I would gladly heare your answere to them for my further resolution What thinke you then because you call Papistrie heresie are you of that minde that all our fathers are damned that no Papist can be saued C. I am not to iudge of mens persons many are called Papists who know not what Papistrie meanes and many liue Papists who dare not die Papists or if so they doe they know not what they doe But Papistrie it selfe I affirme it is a pernicious doctrine yea as the Apostle cals it a doctrine of diuels killing the Soules of them who beleeue it But this is the second of your questions which we will reserue till the next day R. Let it be so What then say you to the first Where was your Church before Luther C. Euen where our doctrine was sometime in one Countrie sometime in an other as it pleased God in his wise dispensatiâ—n who caries the light of his Gospell as he doth the Sunne â—hrough the World to illuminate Nations at sâ—uerall times therewith according to his will R. That is a faire Generall but will yee tell vs who were these What Countrie people What Doctors who taught as yee teach R. Looke the Churches of Asia Asricke and of Europe consider them as they were before the mysterie of iniquitie came to the hight and you shal see that they all had the same doctrine and forme of a Church that we haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion R. But you are not able to name one before Luther teaching in all things as he did C. This is a peece of Sophistrie whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant R. How so should not the teachers of the truth agree in al things in one harmonie C. I grant they should and thanks be to God they doe also in al substantial things which are Articles of our faith But is this a good reason because some Doctors in some opinions differ whereof men may bee ignorant and saued neuerthelesse that therefore these Doctors teach no truth and their Churches are no true Churches R. That seemes to bee hard indeed C. You haue reason for you so to thinke for in one age Viâ—tor with the Church in the West was in a
of Christs ordinance and by their owne confession a plaine departing from Antiquitie What thinke you of this one instance R. I will aduise vpon it C. Doe so but I pray you fight not against the cleare light and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes Antiquitie Antiquitie the â—athers the fathers yet this one instance among a hundreth prooues them to bee fathers oâ— nouelties what say yee Tell me like yee to heare any more of Vincentius R. I am content but let mee know â—irst what writer hee is and whose Translation is that C. He was a French-man he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ and heere it is Translated by Ninian Winzet a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome which yee cannot refuse R. Reade on what sayes he further C. There is a commaund giuen to Timothie Deposâ—um serua which in all good reason should binde his successors Thus hee expounds it Keepe that which is committed to thee not that which is inuented by thee which thou hast receiued not which thou hast imagined wherein thou art no Author inuenter sorger but a keeper not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper not a guide but a follower saue that which is giuen thee saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken vncorrupt what thou hast receiued render it againe if thou hast receiued Gold render Gold againe slippe not in one thing in stead of an other for Gold lay not downe lead nor brasse R. I heare all that and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine C. Then take heedâ— the Apostle protests he dâ—liuered that to the Corinthians which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS R. I know that C. Hee commanded Timothie and all others his successors in the worke of the Ministerie to doe the like R. And good reason so they should C. Then there is the point How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise R. Wherein doe they otherwise C. Haue you forgot so soone Saint Paul deliuered to the people as wel the Cup as the Bread because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people R. Why May not the Church make Lawes C. No such Lawes as derogate to Christs Lawes for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-makers but Law-keepers I pray you giue place to the truth and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie who dare make the like of that Albeit Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church did this yet we for good causes will doe othâ—rwayes R. Alway that is but one â—oint C. But seeing you cannot denie but they haue broken and corrupted the auncient Catholicke faith in one point you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word R. The Lord saue me from his curse C. Amen but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse R. God grant it C. And so I wish from my heart it may be But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring so in both you are guiltie of sacrilegious adding and changing and so cannot â—schew the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is R. How So C. As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread so yee haue added Water to the Wine which is a new inuention and forgerie albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first yet it is certain it was not in Christs institution and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ and so should bee reiected as a noueltie R. That is but a smal thing and there may be many reasons to excuse it C. No not one Let no man bee wiser then God Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle Oyle and Salt to the element of Water was this done by Christ or his Apostles You father the Oyle vpon Siluester but confesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him and so it is an other ancient noueltie R. It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptisme and can not annull it C. I graunt they doe not annull Baptisme yet are they inexcusable who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ Are not his Sacraments the Seales of his couenant R. I confesse they are C. Why then since it is treason to pare or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Signet is it not Sacrilegious boldnessâ— to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament But least you should thinke the controuersiâ— onely to bee about these things you shall know that except the Article of the Trinitie the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted so that it is most certaine This Church of Rome with the doctrine and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her was not in the Primitiue Church R. O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter from one of their Doctors That there is a great difference betweene a Church in her infancie and her older and riper age For as it growes in age so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof C. Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues and because it is your last and greatest defence I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius which you will like better then mine that this makes nothing for you R. Come on let vs see what sayes Vincentius C. He grants There should be an encrâ—ase in Faith but not a change of Faith R. That is a strange distinction and yet so honest that in truth I dare not gaine-say it C. Heare him then hee expounds the two parts of his distinction To encrease saith he is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified To change is when a thing going out of it selfe is translated turned into an other To make this cleare hee illustrates it by a proper similitude Let sayes hee the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies which albeâ—t in processe of yeres they grow yet they remaine the same the same members the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men though in the one stronger and greater in the other smaller and weaker but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind or any thing bee eked to the number of the members or taken from the same then either the body perisheth or becomes monstrous or at the least becomes weake So in Religion if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with
thinke it goes very hard with them when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome but it was Babel or it will be Babel that is either Antichrist sate there or will sett there C. I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe for now I will improue their distinction and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes R. Make that cleare and the cause is wonne Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes C. It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist so sayes the Iesuite Viega Haec est quarta visio huius operis eaque illustrissima ad Antichristi tempora pertinens So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda iota ad Antichristum eiusque tempora pertinet But the dayes of persecuting Emperours were not the dayes of Antichrist if they so say they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist and therefore this prophecie of Babel is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours Secondly Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell and was not married with Christ and therefore cannot be this Whore which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom but such as haue beene married with Christ none can bee Apostates from the faith who neuer stoode in the faith there must bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome vnmarried with Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome it must bee Rome once Christian but now corrupted once Apostolicke standing in the faith now Apostatiâ—ke fallen from the faith Thirdly this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations and the filthines of her fornicationâ— wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands Documenta erroribus plena And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence but must signifie Rome vnder Popes which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles Fourthly this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore corrupting the true worship of God but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon othâ—rs Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased They subdued the Iewes and forced them to pay tribute but left them to their owne Religion yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations as is euident by their Pantheon which they erected in the honour of all Gods And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes Fiftly the name of this Babel is mysterium in quo aliud cernitur aliud intelligitur Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet sed viris iusâ—is prudentibus So then by this Babel some mysticall enemie is vnderstood being indeede an enemie but in shew pretending friendship and therfore called afterward Gog and not Magog that is not an open and plain enemy as is the Turke But Gog a couered enemie for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes looking like a Lambe but speaking like the Dragon To this purpose sayes IEROME Simulabit se ducem faederis And Hilarius that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ vnder a â—orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse And Chrysostome Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine not by his titles miracles nor words of godlinesse And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites The Pope say they prayers humbly to God and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei therefore is not an aduersarie for the Question is not what he calles himsâ—lfe but what hee is But to hold vpon this point it is euident by what which I haue said that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebell for both these are open enemies but Rome vnder Popes a mysticall enemie Sixthly in this Reuelation there are two women described the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne which is CHRIST hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles and vnder her feete the Moone figuring this mutable world This woman as themselues confesse represents the true Church The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple Scarlet Gold and precious stones voide of inward beautie and chastitie shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie that shee may drawe many louers to her Now I say seeing the first woman signifies the true Church as themselues confesse and afterward is called the Lâ—mbes wife why doe they not â—ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church And since they grant that Babel is Rome what else can the whoore of Babel be but the whoorish Church of Rome And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn Babel is fallen and become an habitation of diâ—els Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation accâ—rding to that of â—say prophâ—cied of the first Babel The â—im and Zâ—m shall leape there But Viega Nobis etiam illud dicendum viâ—etur cum Arethâ Primasio Ambrosio Ansberto Haimone idololatriam eius vrbis significari desecturamque esse Romam a fide atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia iâ—olotriae superstitioneÌ„ expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith which hee sayes is a thing which will be but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already the foretold defection is come Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist C. GOod morrow Sir how doe you to day R. The best I can C. It is most like you haue not rested well this night R. To say the truth Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse C. It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie R. I thinke so indeede and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question what is the cause there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church that they cannot see
the truth and follow it C. Whether they see or see not I cannot tell you but you know what the Apostle sayes Brethren yee see your calling not many wise not many noble nor mightie men after the flesh are called but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of the World to confound â—he wise R. I knowe that is the Apostles saying but yet I cannot but maruell what should holde them backe from knowledge of the truth C. You shall cease to maruel if you conâ—â—der one thing R. What is that C. VVhen Christ shewed himselfe to the World how many of the Nobles and Learned Rabbins did know him Will you find any more among the Nobleâ— but Ioseph of Arâ—mathea Will you find any more among the Learned Pharisies but Nicodemus R. Truly not that I remember C. Was it then thinke you a good argumeÌ„t they vsed against Christ Doth any of the Rulers or Scribes beleeue in Christâ— but only this cursed people who knowes not the Law R. No indeed C. Bee not then moued with the like now Oh say the Papists how many Learned men are of our Religion Euery man naturall in things pertaining to eternall life is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without a minde till hee bee illuminate by grace were he in naturall reason as quick as Aristotle or in policie as Achitophel he is but a starke foole till he bee taught of God and therefore maruell no more that Learned Iesuites cannot know the truth then when you heare that Learned Iewish Rabbins could not know Christ when he was among them R. The Lorde then make vs thankfull for reuealing the way of life vnto vs which is hid from so many in the World C. Amen good Lord. And now for your further confirmation consider these testimonies I haue subioyned How the Fathers of the first ages point out Antichrist to come and warne vs to looke for him at Rome Let no man seduce you by any meanes for the day of the Lord shall not come vnlesse there come first a reuolt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the man of sinne bee reuealed the sonne of perdition which is an aduersarie and extolled aboue all which is called God or that is worshipped so that he sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe as if he were God 2. Thessal 2.3 Now the mysterie of iniquitie worketh only he which now withholdeth will let it till he be taken out of the way C. What thinke you of this Prophecie R. I haue heard that to bee a falling away from the Roman Empire C. No Sir the most iudicious both Ancient and Recent expound it to bee a falling from the faith As for the Ancients see Augustine de Ciuitate Dei â—ib 20. Cap. 19. Nulli dubium est eum de Antichristo ista dixisse For the Recents see Aquinas on this place R. But granting it were so yet this Prophecie is of one single man and cannot be meant of the Popes of Rome C. No that is also a silly shift when your Church-men say that the Pope is Christ Vicar doe they meane any one single Pope R. No but the state or succession of Popes C. Very well and when wee say that the Pope is Christ opposite doe wee vnderstand this man or that man no truly but the whole state or regiment of them since their defection R. But I see not how this Prophecie either toucheth the Pope or the Church of Rome and if it bee meant of any defection from the faith it is meant of Luther Caluine and such as haue fallen from the Church of Rome C. Compare another Prophesie of the same Apostle concerning the sâ—me purpose and see how he expounds himselfe R. Where is that C. Here are his wordes 1. Timothie 4.1 Now the Spirit speakes euidently that in the last times some shall depart from the faith attending to Spirits of errour and Doctrine of Deuils and marke how hee subioynes some particular points of their doctrine which shall come in with the Apostasie to wit that they shall forbid mariage and command abstinence from meates which God hath created to bee receiued with thankesegiuing VVhat thinke you now whether doth this touch them or vs R. I know it cannot concerne you for you forbid none to marie that cannot containe C. Neither can this Prophesie bee cast backe vpon Heresies of the Marcionits and others neerest the Apostles dayes as the Iesuites doe to shift this Prophesie from themselues for the Apostles saye this Apostasie shall fall out in the laâ—t times And the former Prophesie saies that the Roman Empire must first bee taken out of the way then shall the Apostasie worke to the height as indeede it fell out that the seat of the Empire being translated to Constantinople the Emperour decreased the Bishop of Rome more and more increased so that it is not meant of Heretikes neerest the Apostles dayes but of such as shall rise after the decay of the Roman Empire And who tell mee hath growne by the decay of the Empire None but the Pope he hath his Imperial seat his robes his crowne his rents so that the Emperor except the name the double Eagle hath littlâ— or nothing of the Empire And therfore Aquinas who saw what was the meaning of that place moues the doubt What shall wee answere saies he seeing the Roman Empire is decayed how can we denie buâ— Antichrist is come To this he answeres we must say the Roman Empire is not away only the Temporall power therof is changed into a Spiritual what thinke you is there not good stuffe here R. In truth I thinke their cause the longer I heare you the weaker C. So may you But yet more to confirme you consider how the Ancient expound this Prophesie and still cast it vpon the Church of Rome Irenaeus Lib. 5. speaking of the number of the beasts name six hundreth threescore and sixe albeit hee plainly shew it is not his diuination but the accomplishment of the Prophesie which must finde out the number of the name and albeit he make mention also oâ— other names as Eâ—an and Teitan yet sayes hee sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 valde verisimile est Tertullian contra Marcion Babylon apud Ioannem Romanae vrbis figura est proinde magnae regno superbae sanctorum Dei debellatricis Tertullian de resurrectione carnis see how hee expounds that part of the Prophesie Only he who now withholds let till hee be taken out of the way Donec de medio fiat quis nisi Romanus status câ—ius abscisio in decem reges Anti-christum superinducet tunc revelabitur iniquus c. Ambrose in 2. Thessal 2. Non prius veniet dominus quam regni Romani defectio fiat appareat Antichristus qui interficiet sanctos reddita Romanis libertate sub suo tamen nomine Et iterum Post defectum Romani imperij appariturus est Antichristus Cyril Cateches 15. Veniet Antichristus quum impleta fuerint
different opinion from Policrates and the Churches of the East and Ierome had his owne discordance with Augustine against the exposition of the commandement Thou shalt beare no false witnesse in that question de mendacio and the first Fathers of the Primitiue Church were Chiliasts shall it thereupon follow that because in this point they taught not in all things as we doe that therefore they were not a Church R. It is no reason C. Cyprian in the point of rebaptising taught not as Cornelius what of that will it follow that hee was not a faithfull Pastor or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church R. It followes not indeed C. Why then doe you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Caluin who in all points taught as we teach The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent are men subiect to infirmities for no man vpon earth hath his vnderstanding perfect whereof it comes to passe that in some things one of them differs from an other But as to the Articles of the faith and substance of Christian religion whereby comes saluation sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian Ambrose Aâ—gustine Luther and Caluin haue all deliuered oâ—e doctrine and did teach the way of God truly R. Theâ— you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion C. I think sâ— indeed hope to die in that same faith whereâ—â— they liued and died R. It would bee thought strange to heare that in Italie that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion C. No maruell it be strange there where Truth is a stranger but this answere was giuen you and them both by a worthy Doctor of our Church and wee yet stand to it Patres in maximis sunt nostri in multis varij â—n minimis vestri Such Fathers as haue written before vs and you both in greatest things are ours in many thinges are doubtfull in smallest thinges they are yours R. Well I shall remember that God willing but in the dayes of Papistrie wherewith you say the world was blinded where was your Church C. Answere me but an other question and it shall resolue you R. What is that C. Your Doctors say that when Antichrist shall come the Church shall â—lie to the desert that is as themselues expound it The Church shall bee without publike state of regiment and open free exercise of holy functions neither shall it bee unknowne to the faithfull which follow it as this day may bee seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholiques in many parts of England R. What doth that helpe you C. Very much that which they themselues say will bee done wee say is done Antichrist hath alreadie chased the Church to the wildernesse and so oppressed it that for a time it had no publike state of regiment nor open free exercise of holy functions yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it nor to the enemies that persecuted it as this day may bee seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France R. Will ye make that cleare and I thinke you haue wonne much C. What greater clearenesse can you craue If this answere bee good to cleare the Popes Church when they say it will bee obsâ—ured by Antichrist and yet be is it not as good to iustifie our Church when we say it hath beene obscured by Antichrist and yet was R. The answere is good enough only if you can I would haue you qualifie it more particularlâ— C. There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day wherein I can not point forth men preaching and professing as wee doe but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry I will let you see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs where our Church then was for they found vs alwaies in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin was borne R. Make that good C. Remeâ—us a Popish Inquisitor who liued more then three hundred yeeres agoe speaking of the poore men of Lyons and calling them in contempt Valdenses Leonistae sayth they were more pernitious to the Church of Rome then all other sects foâ— three causes First because it hath beene of longer continuance for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no land in the which this Sect doth not creepe The third cause for that all other sectes doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all thinges well concerning God and all the Articles which are contained in the Creede onely they blaspheme hate the Church of Rome Now there is the testimony of an enemy making answer for vs which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more Where was your Church before Luther R. I but hee calles them a Sect and saies they blasphemed the Church C. So the Priests of the Iews called the Church of Christians a Sect of Nazarits Act. 24.5 What is that to the matter yet he grants they are such a Sect as first had beene from the beginning secondly had beene in all Countries thirdly was honest in lise sound in faith saue onely that they helde the Church of Rome to be the whore of Baâ—el And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may bee further remoued out of your mind I pray you consider this Think you not that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach if our doctrine was in former ages you will not deny that our Church was then also R. That can not bee denied C. Well then if you please name mee any controuersie of religion concerning any Article of faith betweene vs and the Papists thiâ— day and you shall see that the ancient fathers take our part in it R. That is strange for they repose their chiefest strength trust in the ancient fathers C. Bragge what they will it is true I say they may well boast in the drosse of fathers decke their errors with it but wee shall bring you their finest gold Name you the controuersie you shall trie that which I say to bee a truth R. There are so many controuersies among you that I know not which of theÌ„ to name first C. Then will it please you to take a view of these which I haue gathered for my own priuate vse R. With a very good will let me see what they are C. They are here in a little sâ—role and I haue collected theÌ„ for my owne confirmation in the faith for as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures so finding that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church exponed
the streetes of your Cities with innocent blood Nor like an Herod to take the Wife of an other Your Maiestie might shake the lappe with Nehemiah against oppressours in signe and token of innocencie Your Highnesse might cast the first stone at adulterers in a good conscience could make purgation with Samuel if so it were that your Highnesse came to bee iudged of man Whose Oxe or Asse haue I taken or to whome haue I done wrong If thâ—re be any fault for the best want not their own blemishes it is vpon that extremity which is neerest to vertue Namely in too great mercie and clemencie which of old was noted for an infirmitie in good Theodosius Quod ex mansuetudine in nimiam lenitatem declinauerït yet euen of this will I say with Nazian Etiam haec est dei humanitas Clementia This also is a resemblance of the clemencie of God whose deputie on earth your Highnes are for hee is gracious slow to wrath long suffering and ready to forgiue Many a time he bends his bowe to shoote at the wicked the arrowes of his anger but is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 slowe and loath to let them go Yea oftimes hee shoots purposely misseth his marke sparing yet for a time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his warnings are many but where they worke not hee strikes at length and no more but once 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thus eueÌ„ the Lord whose mercie is marueilous meanes him to iudgement where mercie is abused It is no pietie but superstition to spare when time is to strike And it is a cruell clemencie which is declared vpon one with the destruction of manie The Pillars which vphold a Kingdome are Mercie and Iustice since by them Kinges are conserued Your Highnesse out of your rare wisedome will haue a care to conserue them both that neither Mercie make preiudice to Iustice nor Iustice againe take away the praise of Mercie But to returne as Sâ—desprima vita ima are most vnseemely so is the dignity doubled where the preferment is beautified with pietie and herein also hath the Lord magnified his mercie toward your Maiesty that as by an high calling he hath exalted your Highnesse a Head Ruler ouer this Mightie people so hath hee made your Highnesse no lesse eminent by communication of his grace then your Maiestie is by the Honor of the place liuing in the eyes of all men a patterne of Vertue yea an image of the heauenly King walking so among the euill that you are not infected with their vice and so with the good that the best are made better by your example God make vs wise to know what wee haue for because the Lord hath loued his people therefore hath hee set such a King ouer them to rule them with equitie and righteousnesse The Lord make vs thankefull for it and long may your Highnes liue raign a happy king of many blessings to your people Amen Your Maiesties most humble Subiect and dayly Orator WILLIAM COVVPER B. of Galloway The Contents of the seuen Dayes Conference The I. dayes Conference Concerning Antiquity in Genâ—rall The II. Day Concerning the Antiquity of the Church of Scotland and how the Church of Rome in her best estate was but a sister and not a mother Church vnto it The III. Day Concerning the Apostacie of the Church of Rome and how shâ—e is now become that mother of Wâ—â—redomes Reuel The IIII. Day Wherein is declared that Rome is the seate of Antichrist The V. Day Wherein the common questâ—on of the Aduersaries is answâ—red Where was your Church before Luther The VI. Day Wherein an other Question commonly obiected by the Aduersâ—râ—es is answered Seeing you cannot denie thaâ— your fathers were Papists what thinke you are they all damned or not And if they be not damned why may not we be of their Religion The VII Day Wherein the order obserued in the Church of Scotland is declared to be conform to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles and pâ—â—ctised in the Primitiue Church SEVEN DAYES CONFERENCE BETWEENE A Catholicke CHRISTIAN and a Catholicke ROMANE C. SIR you are wâ—lcome home from Italie R. I thanke you heartielie good Countriman C. Tell mee I pray you how it goes with you are you sound both in bodie and in minde R. Why what meane you by that C. Because many trauelled in these partes where you haue beene hauing returned worse then they went a field R. Wherein worse C. With the botch of Aegypt in their bodie the iust plague of God for corporall whoredome and the leprosie of Babel in their soules wherewith God also punisheth theÌ„ who loue not Sions beautie and delight not in the light of the Gospell R. But I was neither in Aegypt nor in Babel C. How so was you not in Rome and other parts vnder the Popes Dominions R. Yea that I was C. Then was you both in Aegypt and Babel B. I vnderstand not your mysticall Theologie C. Neither can yee so long as you are in the mist and haue your mind couered with a vaile R. You speake your pleasure there for I see all is well as your selfe C. I would you did for so you might easily see that Rome is Spirituall Aegypt wherin the light of God is obscured and Babel wherein is a fearefull captiuitie of Gods people and such a horrible confusion of languages that when the Builder speaks the people vnderstands not what he sayes yea it is Sodom which for her vile abhominations will shortly bee burnt with fire and brought to vtteâ— desolation neuer to bee repaired againe R. Let mee alone I see you are stil in your old humour and it maruels me much that so many in this Land being conuerted to the bosome of the mother Church of Rome you should still continue in this new Hereticall opinion C. O now I see the bile of Babel vpon you you will call her a mother Church whom God cals a mother of Whoredomes and you charge vs with noueltie and heresie but wee will proue by Gods grace what you call heresie and noueltie is veritie and antiquitie R. Antiquitie say you fie speake neuer of it for your eldest Doctours are Luther and Caluin C. Nay by your leaue Sir wee haue neither our faith from Luther nor from Caluin but answere you as the Apostle Saint Paul answered his aduersaries when they charged him with the like crimes that you charge vs with and I pray you marke his Apologie I confesse that after the way which they call Heresie so worship I the Lord God of my Fathers R. What euer Saint Paul speakes I would not haue you speaking of Fathers seeing you haue forsaken the Religion of your Fathers C. You deceiue your selfe if you thinke wee wil not stand to the Religion of our Fathers R. Ah but your Fathers were Papists C. Nay but our Fathers were Protestants R. Now in good faith you moue me to laughter C. You may laugh as you