there appeare a â—arre in the scriptures that some of them are opposed to others as it fell out betweene the auncient Bishoppes and the Arrians betweene the Catholikes and Donatists betweene Pelagians and godlie teachers and nowe betweene you and vs that on both sides they are produced a iudge must be sought for to reconcile them Who is that not a Christian for he is partie on the one side or the other not a pagan he knoweth not the misteries of Christianitie not a Iewe for he is an enemie to Christian Baptisme on Earth there can be founde noe iudgment saith Optatus But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospell his testament for here earthlie thinges may be compared to heauenlie See howe we may come to the true sence not by seekinge vnto the Pope not by restinge vppon determinations of councels not by settinge on Traditions but by flyinge vnto the Testament For as the same Optatus goeth on Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthlie Father who hauinge manie children ruleth them all so longe as he liueth noe testament so longe is necessarie euen so Christ so longe as he was present vppon earth althoughe nowe he be not wantinge gaue in charge vnto the Apostles whatsoeuer for the tyme was necessarie But as an earthlie father feelinge himselfe in the consines of death fearinge after his decease his children will contendâ— and breake peace calleth witnesses and from his dyinge breast draweth his will into lastinge tables and if there fall out anie contention amonge the brethren they goe not to his tombe but seeke his testament and so he that quietly resteth in his tombe speaketh still from the tables as if he were aliue He whose testament we haue is in heauen therefore lett his will be sought for in his gospell as in a testament for these thinges which presentlie yeâ— doe he foresawe that yee would doe CHAMP Because these sayinges of Optatus haue the same meaninge with that of S. Aug which imediatlie followeth it shall there appeare howe litle they serue your turne Here are onlie to be noted these wordes of his On earth there is founde noe iudge By which wordes he excludeth not all iudgment vppon earth for so should he exclude the testament also it selfe but he excludeth all earthlie or humane iudgment as vnfitt and vnable to decide differencies of faith of which sorte the iudgment of the churche is not For shee is the piller and ground of truth perpetuallie assisted by the holy Ghost which teacheth and suggesteth to her all truth PILK S. August runneth the verie same course almost vseth the same wordes as if he had taken them out of Optatus we are brethren saith he why doe we striue our father died not intestate he hath made a testament and so died men doe striue aboute the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read the iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the crier biddeth peace all the people are attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read and heard he lyeth voide of life and feelinge in his graue and his wordes preuaile Christe doth sitt in heauen and is his testament gainsayde open it lett vs reade it we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes be pacified our father hath not lefte vs without a testament he that made the testament is liuinge for euer he doth heare our wordes he doth knowe his owne worde why doe we striue CHAMP S. Aug by these plaine wordes of the spalme Reminisâ—entur conuertentur ad Dominum omnes fines terrae Et adorabunt in conspectâ— eius vniuersae familiae genti 〈…〉 as by the confessed testament of the father prooueth that the Donatists haue noe right to the inheritance of the churche which they contrarie to the testament of God expressed in the psalme say was onlie in a corner of the world amongst them Who notwithstandinge were not come to that degree of seÌ„clesnes as to say the church was inuisible as the protestants doe Iustlie therefore did S. Aug prouoke the Donatists in this pointe to the tryall of the testament as also the catholikes doe the protestantes in the pointe of the reall presence and diuers others Which tryall notwithstandinge is not sufficient where either scripture is opposed to scripture or it is not agreed vppon which is the scripture it selfe as it happeneth betweene the catholikes and protestants as shall â—ore amplie appeare by and by PILK And S. Ambrose more auncient then both to Gratian the Emperour Beleeue not Emperour our Argument and our disputation let vs aske the Scriptures let vs aske the Apostles let vs aske the Prophets let vs aske Christ what shoulde I adde more let vs aske the Father of whose honour they say they are Iealous CHAMP Sr. you alwaies speake besides the purpose The question betweene you and me is not whether the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the church are not sufficient to decide anie controuersie in faith and namelie that whereof S. Amb. disputeth which is not denyed vnto you but whether the scriptures lefte vnto the interpretation of either party contendinge are a sufficient iudge to end all controuersies in faith In which question I defende the negatiue and you the affirmatiue if you will yett contend anie more These testimonies therefore of the fathers aswell of S. Ambrose as those that went before and also that followe are alleaged beside the question and altogether impertinentlie as all the rest of your sayinges for the moste parte are PILK A Gentile cometh and saith I woulde be a Christian but I knowe not which side to cleaue vnto manie dissentions are amonge you and I cannot tell which opinion to holde euerie one saith I speake the truth and the scriptures on both sides are pretended so that I knowe not whom to beleeue To this Chrisostome replyeth trulie this maketh much for vs for well might you be troubled if we should say we rely vppon reason but seeinge we take the scriptures which are so true and playne it will be an easie matter for you to iudge if anie consent vnto them he is a Christian if anie goe against them he is farr from this rule CHAMP This allegation of S. Chrisost is not onlie impertinent as all the rest are but fraudulent and proceedinge of a minde not willinge to finde out the truth but to deceiue the reader For the wordes imediatlie followinge and lefte out by you Mr. Pilkinton propose directlie the question which nowe is in hande and the answere thereof followeth also consequentlie Quid igitur saith S. Chrisost What therefore if he say that the scripture hath in this sort and thou sayest another thinge explicatinge the scriptures otherwise and drawinge theire sence to fauour thee Loe here the question in controuersie betweene Mr. Pilkinton and me Howe doth S. Chrisostome answere it doth he send vs to
vnderstandinge according to scriptures CHAMP I wish with all my hearte thoughe you geue little occasion to hope it that you woulde immitate S. Aug aswell in this particular as in all other thinges then woulde you with all humilitie and reuerence receiue and acknowledge the authoritie of the churche in the interpretation of the scriptures and not diabolicallie bragge of the brauenes of your spirits that dare contemne the same Hearken I pray you vnto S. Aug wordes to Cresconius in the same chapter cited by you which seeinge you take noe notice of it is an euident argument you haue noe greate desire to learne anie thinge of him but to see if you canne picke anie thinge out of him for your purpose which is to impugne him and the rest of the fathers His wordes are these which may as properlie be vsed to you as he vsed them to Cresconius Put your selfe saith he in the churche which it is manifest S. Cyprian defended and then may you alleage S. Cyprians authoritie for your doctrine The same I say to you concerninge S. Aug example thoughe you came neerer the imitatinge thereof theÌ„ you doe You say you followe the direction of the priests and leuits in expoundinge scriptures I finde nothing att all in the place quoted by you warrantinge your vsage of scriptures But were it as you thinke you must first prooue your selues to be priests or leuits before you can take vppon you the charge of priests and leuits in expoundinge the scriptures How would you answere that olde question put vnto such as you are well nighe 1400. yeares a goe Vnde vemtts quid in meo â—acitis non mei or if you will take vppon you as priests and leuits to expounde the scriptures beinge noe such men those that desire not to be deceaued will reiect your expositions as false and pernitious PILK And thus the fathers teache vs as whatsoeuer golde is without the temple is not sanctified so whatsoeuer sence is without the scriptures althoughe to some it seeme wounderfull yet is not holy because it is not contained in the scriptures The scripture expoundeth her selfe and suffereth not the hearers to erre saith Chrisostome He is the best reader sayth Hyllarie that expecteth rather the vnderstandinge of the wordes from the wordes themselues then imposeth it vppon them CHAMP The sence of the churche is neuer without the scriptures as the sence of all heretikes is which impugne the churche and if the scriptures permitt not the hearer to err as you say in vaine are your expositions euerie hearer beinge aswell able to vnderstande them as you ministers You said not longe since that there are manie obscurities in the scriptures and are they nowe so cleare that they permitte not the hearer to err Doe you not see what absurdities you runne into whilst you wrangle against the euident truth And who I pray you is more like to take the sence of the scriptures from the wordes themselues and not to impose it vppon them as you say out of S. Hillarie then the catholicke churche assisted to that end by the holy ghost PILK To conclude this pointe sith the fathers often roue att the sence of the scriptures vnderstandinge that literallie which is meant spiritually and contrariwise as your owne Bellarmine may informe you you shoulde haue donne well to haue followed the direction of your owne Canon lawe you must not froÌ„ without scriptures seeke a forrayne and straunge sence that so you may confirme it with authoritie of the text as you can but of the scriptures themselues you must receiue the meaninge of the truth CHAMP If the fathers roue at the sence of the scriptures which saucie and vnseemlie terme you falslie father vppon Bellarmine what shall I thinke you will doe Hitt the marke directlie what sencelesnes would that be to thinke that men impugninge violentlie the church which the scriptures testifie to be pillar of truth should be true interpreters of scriptures Knowe you therefore that whilst followe the fathers interpretations of the scriptures which they either receiue from the churche or is approoued and not approoued and not gainsayde by the churche I seekâ— not the sence of the scriptures from without them but in them by them and most conformablie to them and so I followe punctuallie the direction of the Canon Lawe as you aduise me maruellinge not a little that you should geue so good counsell to another and followe it so little your selfe And nowe Iudicious reader woulde I intreate thee to turne ouer a fewe leaues backwarde and take reuiewe of the short section of the manuall sett downe as it is in Mr. Pilkinton and then passe hardlie thy censure of vs both as thou shalt finde cause and ground And particular note I woulde haue thee to take howe pertinentlie and directlie he impugneth that which hâ— affirms 〈…〉 and effectuallie prooueth that which I woulde haue thee obserue thoroughe ouâ— whole dispute MANVALL SECTIO 4. Thirdlie that I expect and exact of him or them that shall goe aboute to answere this teatise the same round sincere and direct dealinge which I haue here vsed Remembringe before all thinges that he sett downe his faith in direct positions and proceed in like methode as I haue donne for the rest To whom I willinglie graunt this large libertie aboue that which I haue vsed that he tye not himselfe vnto the first 500. yeres after Christ for the fathers interpretations but that he take bouldlie 1500. yeres so that he bringe not condemned heretikes for his authors and with all obserue the pointe followinge PILK You may bouldlie sound the Triumphe before the victorie if you may prescribe your aduersaries howe and what they shall answere you which if any of vs shoulde offer to your side we should presentlie be vpbrayded with fortissimi milites that on noe other condition dare encounter with our enemies except we forbidde them what weapons they would vse and take to our selues what we list Neuerthelesse rather then you shoulde complaine that you are wronged if your desire be not accomplished who carrie in your head Ticonius conceipt quod volumus sanctum est therefore I am content to followe your disorderlie order and for the rest of this paragraph doe as Antonie the oratour did who when he came to a troublesome pointe lapped it vp in silence so on the contrarie for the easines of this to passe by itt and proceede to that which is of greater moment CHAMP It is not onlie lawfull but verie laudable and welbeseeminge for anie man to demande equall conditions of his aduersarie which notwithstandinge I haue spared to doe yeldinge vnto you the libertie of 1500. for onlie 500. yeeres which is in anie indifferent mens iudgment ouer great aduantage For the rest of this section I will imitate your example lettinge it passe in silence For I will not be ashamed to followe you where you goe right MANVALL SECTION 5. Fowerthlie that it
before of Legat which instance you can neuer answere not satisfy and which onlie is sufficient if you were not obstinatly peruerse to make you ashamed to maintaine so senceles a Paradox and so euidentlie contradicted by perpetuall experience in all ages Your last shifte or euasioÌ„ of interpretinge scripture by scripture vnles there be some agreement or certaintie of the scripture interpretinge more then of the scripture interpreted which abstractinge from the iudgmeÌ„t of the churche cannot be had is a meere mockerie and like as if a man would measure one peece of veluett the measure whereof is as vncertaine as that of the former And to conclude this section it beinge in question betweene the catholikes and protestants who is to be iudge of controuersies in faith yea the roote and key of all controuersies which beinge ended or decided all the rest would haue easie decision you affirminge the scriptures to be this iudge and pretend to prooue this by scripture as al other thinges to be beleeued you are bounde by your owne doctrine to shewe it out of scripture which when you shall doe we will yeelde vnto you in all the rest of the tontrouersies betweene vs. But seeinge you can neuer doe this why doe you not yeelde to vs shewinge you out of manifest scripture the authoritie of the churche to decide controuersies You say the church is a partie and therefore no competent iudge But this hauinge been the cauill of all condemned heretikes and as truly alleaged by them as by you this plea is no more receiueable in you then in them And tell me I pray you the kinge is he not partie in all pleas of felonie or treason that are brought into his courtes yes verilie And yett none euer yet thought of anie such plea as to appeale from the iudgment geuen in his name and by his soueraigne authoritie in such cases Albeit the iudgments geuen in his courtes are farr froÌ„ beinge so assuredly iuste equitable as are the iudgments of the church which hath the infallible promise of the holy ghostes assistance in her decisions and determinations You are therefore fast taken which way soeuer you turne your selfe and this inference of myne That if there be no other iudge of controuersies besides the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saâ—e mens soules which you say is without coherence doth nessarilie followe vppon that supposition that heretikes and namelie protestants doe produce scriptures in proofe of theire false doctrine as catholikes doe for theire orthodoxe beliefe if there be no other iudge to decide the controuersie but only the scripture which inference you haue laboured but all in vaine to ouerthrowe as the indifferent reader will easilie iudge MANVLL SECTION 6. Fiftlie that whereas before I can prooue anie point of Christian beleife by scriptures I should first by good order prooue that there is an holy scripture and secondlie in what bookes of the Bible it is contayned yet because neither of these two canne be prooued by scriptures vnlesse we beleeue some scripture without proofe therfore that I may prooue these pointes of faith wherein the Romane Catholicke churche doth differ from the protestants by holy scriptures which our aduersaries vrge me vnto I must necessarily to satisfy theire disorderlie desire proceede disorderlie and suppose that for truth without proofe which requireth most to be prooued I say without proofe if no proofe be good but that which is made out of scripture PILK All questions are not to be disputed of saith Aristotle but only those whereof man desireth a reason that is not worthie of punishment or lacketh sence For if anie demaunde whether God is to be worshipped or our parents to be loued he deserueth stripes or whether snowe be white he lacketh sence This question of yours whether the scripture be gods worde tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere CHAMP In the precedent question to auoyde the authority of the churches iudgment expreslie testified in the scriptures you laboured to maintaine this paradox that notwithstandinge scriptures were produced for either partie of anie controuersie yett the controuersie might be fullie ended and decided by the scriptures alone without anie other iudge decidinge or determininge whether partie vsed the true sence and meaninge of the same scriptures Nowe in this section to auoyde the Authoritie of TraditioÌ„s expreslie also taught in the scriptures you goe aboute to maintaine another paradox no lesse improbable to witt that it is so clearlie manifest not only that there is a written worde of God or holie scripture but also in what booke it is contayned that to moue question in either tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere lett vs see howe you make good this your paradox PILK But least you shoulde triumphe before the victorie I answere that as in all humane artes there be certain principles which are knowne of theÌ„selues without anie farther demoÌ„stration So the verties that are contained in the Cannon of the Bible are the principles foundations of diuinitie and receiue not authoritie by other thinges whereby they may be demonstrated saith Cameracensis CHAMP Ignorance in the rudimeÌ„ts of Philosophie maketh you abuse your tearmes egregiouslie For what principles of artes or sciences I pray you are those that are beleeued for themselues none certainlie For the principles of all naturall knowledge are either euidentlie knowne by the light of nature and not beleeued or they are beleeued for the authoritie of a higher knowledge and not beleeued for themselues The verities contayned in the Bible are beleeued not for themselues but for the authoritie of God reueilinge them who onlie is truth it selfe and beleeued for himselfe of whome and from whome they receiue authoritie and haue it not of themselues as you falselie affirme But you say they cannot be demonstrated by other principles It is true for â—â—â—e but the phreneticall or phanaticall Manicheis did desire or expecte demonstration in matter of faith Which as S. August saith is grounded vppon authoritie as knowledge is vppon reason we demaunde therefore of you some authoritie whereby we may reasonablie beleeue the verities contayned in the Bible to haue been reueiled by God without which authoritie we cannot securelie beleeue them to be gods worde PILK Then if the scriptures be principles as it is confessed on both sides it followeth that they are immediate indemonstrable as al other principles are in theire scieÌ„ces where of they are principles but these more theÌ„ others because they are primae veritatis And as the first good for it selfe is to be loued so the first truth for it selfe is to be beleeued saith Aquinas And therefore it is so farr from beinge requisit to prooue the scriptures that S. Aug. saith they are not to be hearde who shoulde say howe doost thou knowe these bookes to be ministred vnto mankinde by the spiritie of the onlie and most true God for this thinge is
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say
they haue not of themselues but receiue from the interpretation of the churche and traditions which is an impious and blasphemous assertion For the interpretation of a Sinode is but a glosse the scripture is the text the interpretation may err the text cannott erre the interpretation is the worde of man the scriptures the voyce of God to conclude this point whereas the position of the former Roman church was that diuinitie reasoneth from the scriptures necessarilie from other authors and learninge probablie the wheele nowe is turned and men reason from the scriptures coniecturallie but from the interpretation of the churche and tradition firmelie and sullie CHAMP Howe often haue you been tould of your wittinge belying your aduersaries you knowe well if you knowe anie thinge that the catholikes whom you call papists doe teach the scriptures to be the worde of the holy Ghost and to haue theire veritie from him independentlie of the churche And therefore that the churche addeth no strength or veritie to them no more then the witnes or notarie addeth truth or veritie to the will testament of the testatour Neuertheles the authoritie testimonie of the churche is as necessarie for the acceptance and acknowledgment as well of the letter and texte it selfe as of the sence and meaninge of the scriptures as the witnes or notaries hande is to the acknowledgment and proofe of the will and testament or as the sentence of the iudge is necessarie for the true sence and meaninge of the will if at anie tyme it come to be in doubte or in question Neither is the interpretation of the churche vppon the scripture the interpretation or worde of man as you hereticallie tearme it but of the holy Ghost as besides other places you may learne of that Visum est Spitui Sancto nobis But it auaileth like as to teache a wilfull mynde wisdome Your conclusion is yett more childishe ignorant and impertinent For from the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the churche which is infalliblie true we say the argument is necessarie and infallible whereas from all humane authours taken seuerallie be they neuer so learned the argument is not certayne but probable But wheÌ„ we speake of humane authors we vnderstande not the churche nor yett her receiued traditions And thus you see your strongest arguments against the position of the manuall are nothinge but froathie calumnies paralogismes and impertinencies dispersed and blowne away with euerie small blast of winde Manuall Catholike position 2. All such articles as are of faith and so holden by the protestants themselues are not contayned so much as indirectlie or implicitlie in the holy scriptures but onlie so farr as the scriptures contayne and testifie the authority of the churche traditions Proofe Take all the bookes of the bible and euerie parte thereof which are acknowledged for canonicall scripture ioyntlie of catholikes and protestants be such indeede That the moste blessed mother of our Sauiour Christe continued perpetuallie a virgin That it is lawfull for christians to eat strangled thinges and blood which were expressely forbidden them Acts 15. 20. are not so much as indirectly contained in holy scriptures otherwise then is mentioned in our position But this being more amply proued in that which followeth of traditions this which we haue sayd alreadie shal suffice for the present PILK The sunne needeth to borrowe no light of other starres nor the scriptures of the churche or of tradition For without helpe of either they sufficientlie prooue all articles of faith CHAMP It is an vsuall tricke of all deceiptfull and verball disputers to inuert change the question in hande that when they can say nothinge to the true questioÌ„ they may finde somethinge to say to the question framed by themselues The controuersie here is not whether the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue all other articles of faith for that was disputed in the precedent position and the negatiue parte there prooued against you but whether they sufficientlie prooue themselues to be the holy scriptures or noe which was the first proofe of this position lett vs heare howe you answere it PILK But here you trifle in idle Homonomie of articles of faith For strictlie those thinges are called articles of faith which are prescribed in the old and newe testament to be beleeued and are summarilie comprised in the Apostles creed whereby they are both distinguished from the precepts of the lawe that prescribe good workes and from the principles of diuintie from which as from conclusions they are deriued CHAMP I knowe not what you call trifelinge in homonomie but I knowe that you bable in obscuritie It is be like no article of faith with you that God is to be adored his name not to be prophaned or blasphemed that our parents are to be honoured with the rest of gods commaundements because they be precepts commaundinge good workes I maruell where you learned this good diuinitie But lett this passe yett it serueth not your turne For the scriptures whereof the question is nowe are not precepts as you knowe You haue therefore another as good a shifte That is that articles of faith are distinguished not onlie from precepts but also â—roâ— princeples of diuinitie from which as conclusions they are deriued these are your owne wordes but what you meane by them I cannot conceiue They seeme to sounde that the articles of faith as conclusions are deriued from the principles of diuinitie Then which you coulde haue sayd nothinge more contrarie to truthe For all men knowe that the conclusions of diuinitie are deriued from the articles of our faith as from theire principles not the contrarie as you dreame It had been good you had taken one yeere more to haue reuewed your writinges that you might haue made better sence of your ayinges PILK Of which sorte of principles these are That the holy scriptures are diuine inspired from heauen immutabely true CHAMP By what other reason I pray you are these thinges here named by you rather to be called principles of diuinitie then articles of faith more then for your owne bare and ignorant assertion you should haue geuen some reason for your distinction that your reader might haue seene it had not been meerely forged onlie to delude the argument Againe why are these thinges to be tearmed principles and not articles of faith God is one God is omnipotent God is truth it selfe and the first truth that reuealeth misteries of faith you dare not denie these to be principles of the other principles and yett are they most properlie articles of faith as you dare not denie expressed in the creede it selfe You see therefore your distinctions of articles and principles of faith to be vaine foolishe and friuolous inuented onlie to delude your lesse carefull reader PILK Improperlie articles of faith are called whatsoeuer is written as the principles themselues preceptes of the lawe sermons of the prophets histories of both testaments because faith assenteth to euerie
Moreouer were it certainly knowne vnto vs that S. Mathewe wrote the gospell we haue vnder his owne name as it is nowe by tradition and the churches authoritie yett vnles it were further certaine that he wrote by diuine inspiration which without some diuine testimonie we knowe not it could not be certaine to vs that his gospell is the word of God Nowe if you had lefte out of the number of those that haue called the scriptures into questioÌ„ Iesuites and putt in theire place Lutherans or Protestants your wordes might haue passed for currant But tell me in the small honestie of a protestant minister did you euer knowe that anie Iesuite called anie booke of scripture into question or doubte you cannot thoughe you burst your selfe giue an instance Whereas you doe not onlie call manie bookes of the holy Byble into doubt but absolutlie reiect them as Apocripha and your Grand father Luther with his truer disciples doth manie moe euen of those which you say is madnes to call into question Hath malice so blinded you and wilfull rage against the truth made you so madd that you feele not the deadly woundes which you geue your selfe whilst you strike or at least thinke to strike your aduersarie PILK But what iuglinge is this we beleeue these bookes to be theirs whose names they carrie for the authoritie of the churche that is the Pope who is S. Peeters successour and holdeth all his authoritie from him and yett we cannot beleeue S. Peeter himselfe that this Epistle is his but because the present Pope hath so determined it CHAMP I cannot say that you iugle here you are so grossely impertinent and hoodle vppe so manie apparant absurdities in these fewe wordes Where learned you I pray you that the Pope is the churche or that he holdeth all his authoritie from S. Peter and not from Christ himselfe Againe where doth S Peter testifie that this is his Epistle haue you or anie of your reformed bretheren heard him say it no such thinge Seeing therefore neither you nor anie man nowe a liue euer heard him testifie anie such thinge what great iuglinge is it I pray you to beleeue a liuely and liuinge witnes assisted by the spiritt of truth and taught by those who lineallie descended from S. Peter testifiinge that these are S. Peters writinges rather then to beleeue a doombe paper or parchment which might be written by some other as well as other thinges that went a broade vnder the same Apostles name And by that which hath beeÌ„ hitherto sayde on both sides you may see if you will not shut your eies that you may not see that it is cleare notwithstandinge all your childishe ianglinge that all articles of faith are not contayned in scriptues otherwise then is mentioned in the position of the Manuall nowe lett vs see your answere to the other proofes of the same position PILK To your second instance we say with Saint August that we are not willinge to moue anie questions aboute the Mother of God for the honour we beare vnto her sonne Yett sith you stirre the coales we answere that it is an highe pointe of our faith and sufficientlie prooued in the scriptures that Christe was borne of an intemerat Virgin but whether after his birth shee were knowne of Ioseph thoughe the negatiue be a seemelie and reuerend truth yett we say with Basill that it toucheth not our faith CHAMP You woulde seeme to be religiouslie affected towardes the blessed Virgin but notwithstandinge you minse S. Aug wordes least you shoulde doe her too much honour his wordes are these De Maria propter honorem Saluatoris nullam cum de â—eccatis agitur habere volo quaestionem And in the end you are content rather to incline towardes the old heretike Heluidius then to beleeue with the holy catholike churche concerninge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed Virgin Where is nowe I pray you your rule of faith before mentioned non credimus quia non legimus I coniure you vppon forfeiture of your honestie and integritie either to reiect that rule as noe sufficient grounde of faith in anie article or else to beleeue that the blessed Virgin was neuer knowne of anie man Take whether parte you please you shall geue sentence for me against your selfe PILK Your thirde instance is no article of faith but â— Canon of manners so in the number not of thinges to be beleeued but to be donne Wherein thoughe to the Apostles for the auoydinge of scandall for the eatinge of thinges strangled and blood yett when the offence was remoued the eatinge was allowed Rom. 14. 14. 1. Tim. 4. 4. and Saint August prooueth it out of S. Mathewe cap. 15. 17. 18. CHAMP Are you so blockishe that you doe not or so peruerse that you will not see the difference betweene the practise of anie thinge and the doctrine of the lawfulnes of the same practise Whereby you might be taught that thoughe the first be not an article of faith yett the second may be For example thoughe it be not an article of faith for two single persons to marrie together but a matter of practise yett is it a matter of faith that they may lawfullie marrie together as I hope you will not denie and so in fiue hundreth more thinges That the Apostles did make that prohibition for a tyme onlie and not to continue euer where is it written or whence haue you it but by the churches authoritie interpretation The places of scriptures by you cited were they to the purpose as they are not woulde be sufficient arguments to make some of the bookes doubtfull as coÌ„tradictinge the one the other were there not a iudge to reconcile them and bringe them to attonement togeather And thus you see all the three instances brought in proofe of the catholike position in the Manuall to remaine firme and solide and your euasions to be childishe wranglings without truth or substance PILK Thus you see you fight against God when you warre against the perfection of holy worde Which that you may more plainlie perceiue in the last place I will sett downe the protestants doctrine not in such double tearmes as you deuised but theire owne wordes as they haue positiuelie deliuered with the seuerall authorities of holy scriptures whereby they confirme it and testimonies of fathers whereby they shewe the consanguinitie of it with the purest Christians For the positions sett downe by you are not by them acknowledged CHAMP If you deny my positions to be true as hauinge hitherto disputed against them you seeme to doe then must you of necessitie acknowledge the contradictorie to be true and maintaine them as yours vnles you will haue both contradictories to be false which no man yett euer hearde of But why doe you not put downe the positions which I call the protestants positions that the reader might see how iustlie you denie them to be yours I will supply your defect that the
deliuered in scripture make this conclusion by lawfull argument but of this place and I shall esteeme you a Maister Logician But it is enough for you to quote a place of scripture thoughe as fitly for your purpose as Pruritanus doth manie in your behalfe PILK Proofe 3. Reuelations â—2 18. 19. I testify vnto euerie man that heareth the wordes of the prophecie of this booke if anie shall adde vnto these thinges God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if anie shall take away from the wordes of the booke of this prophecie God shall take away his parte out of the booke of life and out of the holy cittie and from the thinges that are written in this booke CHAMP What if I should say with your Grand Father Luther that this booke is apocriphall and therefore your proofe of no worth But God forbidd I should be so prophane as to vse such an aunswere I say therefore that to conclude anie thinge out of this testimonie against me you must conclude not onlie your selfe but S. Paule also and all the rest of the writers of holy scripture to be subiect to this curse here mentioned seeinge they haue all added manie thinges to this booke that is they haue taught and written manie thinges to be beleeued and obserued not contayned in this booke which is the sence and force of your argument and which you are bounde to solue So blinde hath heresie made you that you see not what is with you what against you PILK Proofe 4. Gal. 1. 8. 9. Though we or an angell from heauen preach vnto you besides that we haue preached lett him be accursed 1. Cor. 4. 6. That yee might learne in vs not to be wise aboue that which is written If neither an Apostle nor Angell from heauen may preach anie thinge besides that which is written nor be wise aboue it then that which is written contayneth a full doctrine both of faith and manners CHAMP This argument is like the rest and as trulie deducted from the places quoted In the first place the Apostle faith not 〈…〉 that which is written as you fraudulentlie soist in but besides that which we haue preached That your argument therefore may conclude you must shewe out of scripture that the Apostle had not preached anie thinge more then at that tyme he had written which will bee a taske impossible for you euer to performe especially seeinge the Apostle himselfe testifieth the contrarie commaundinge his disciples To holde the traditioÌ„s which they had learned whether by worde or Epistle Againe when he saith besides that we haue preached he meaneth contrarie to that we haue preached as S. Aug expoundeth him 1200. yeeres before your heresie was hatched In the second testimonie the vulgar translation which was receiued for authenticall in S. Hieromes tymes hath not these wordes not to be wiâ—â— But to doe you a fauour I will admitte of your text and I answere that your argument is foolish For he that is wise with the churche teachinge or beleeuinge with the churche which the scriptures testifie to be the piller and ground of truth is not wise aboue that which is written but conformeablie to that which is written And thus you see your position thoughe positiue or affirmatiue to be so farr from being prooued by expresse scripture that it hath not the least ground therein Whereas the positions of the Manuall thoughe onlie negatiue haue expresse instaÌ„ces out of the holy scripture Lett therefore the indifferent and iudicious reader iudge whether of them hath greater arguments of truth And if we should followe you rule non creâ—â—imus quia â—oâ— ie imus howe woulde you perswade vs to beleeue that all truth pertayninge to â—aith and manners necessarie to saluation is fuâ—lie deliuered in holy sceipture Seeinge you cannot shewe vs it written in anie place whereby you see your selfe either driuen to disauowe your rule of beleefe or to confesse this your position not to be beleeued But peraduenture you will make your proofes stronger out of the fathers Lett vs see what you bringe out of them But marke I pray you whether they be expositions of the places of scripture cited in your fauour or sayinges vttered vppon other occasions If they be of the first sorte they will be more forcible for you but if they be of the other kinde as they are they will be of lesse moment for your purpose Well these they are PILK Proofe 5. All thinges that our lorde did are not written but these thinges which the writers thought sufficient for faith and manners that shininge both in truth of â—aith and vertuous workes we might come to the kingdome of heauen CHAMP The scriptures testifyinge the authoritie of the churche and of the pastours thereof with the obligation that euerie one hath to heare and obay them are trulie sayd by S. Cyrill to contayne those thinges which are sufficient for faith and manners For the thinges that are not directlie expressed in them are learned by the pastours of the churche authorised by the scriptures I maruell you were not afrayde of S. Cyrill seeinge he testifyeth so directlie the necessitie of good workes besides faith for the gayninge of the kingdome of heauen But you receiue the fathers no farther then they seeme to make for you such is your sinceritie PILK Proofe 6. Whatsoeuer is sought for vnto saluation all that is nowe fulfilled in the scriptures CHAMP Your ignorance or peruersitie in this place is intollerable For S. Chrisost speaketh of the institution of the newe testament whereby all thinges necessarie to saluation are fulfilled and not of the scriptures contayninge fullie all thinges necessarie to beleeued PILK Proofe 7. We adore the fulnes of scriptures lett Hermogenes shewe his opinion to be written if it be not written lett him feare the woe denounced to adders and detractours CHAMP Tertullian speaketh of the fulnes of the scripture in that one point whereupon he disputed with that heretike not in all other articles of faith as is manifest by the place it selfe which the iudicious reader may see and satisfy himselfe for here it cannot without tediousnes and ouer much prolixitie bee sett downe PILK Proofe 8. If anie shall preach either of Christ or his churche or of anie other thinge that pertayneth to beleefe or life I will not say if we but that which Paule addeth if an Angell from heauen shall shew vnto you besides that which you haue receiued in the scriptures of the lawe and the Gospell lett him be accursed That which hath a fulnes in it as Tertull. and Chris speake and contayneth in itt all thinges pertayninge to faith and manners as Cyrill and Aug. say that doth fullie prooue all articles of beleefe and life such is the scripture CHAMP S. Aug. wordes haue the sence and meaninge that S. Paules haue takinge beâ—iâ—es for against or contrarie to the scriptures as S. August explicateth himselfe
Apostles did so CHAMP This argument is all moste as wicked as the precedent For if it conclude anie thinge it prooueth the Apostles to haue preached nothinge but S. Iohns gospell And consequentlie all the rest of the newe testament either to be Apocripha or at least not to be anie way necessarie to saluation This man thou seest iudicious reader to be as little a friende to scripture as to traditions seeing to impugne the one he destroyeth the other Is this your sworde Mr. Minister wherewith you would pearce and wounde your aduersary no wise man I thinke but will say it was made to cutt your owne throate with rather then to drawe one droppe of blood of your aduersarie But you will bringe sharper weapons out of the fathers You should remember that the testimonies out of the fathers should be explications of the scriptures cited for the same purpose and not theire single sayinges But lett vs take them as they are PILK Proofe 4. We know not the disposition of our saluation from anie other then from them by whome the ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered it vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP This authoritie hath been once or twice satisfied before and it saith not they wrote all they preached but the same doctrine which they preached they writt and not a diuerse or contrarie as some heretikes fabulouslie taught against whome S. Ireneus there writeth and this is the true meaninge of that place as anie one that looketh thereon will easilie see PILK Proofe 5. These thinges are chosen to be written which are sufficient for the saluation of the beleeuers CHAMP This is true and not against the catholike doctrine of traditions For he that beleeueth that which is written beleeueth sufficient for his saluation if he haue not repugnancie in his minde not to beleeue anie more PILK Proofe It is a manifest defection from faith and the crime of pride either for to refuse anie thinge of those that are written or to bringe in that which is not written as our Sauiour Iesus Christe saith my sheepe heare my voyce CHAMP It is an equall crimeÌ„ to denie that which is written and to bringe in anie thinge not written contrarie to that which is written as the Arrians did who made Christe to be a creature different in substance from his father contrarie to that which is written in manie places And this is S. Basills playne doctrine which is nothinge for your purpose nor against me PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The catholike churche ought not to beleeue these traditions which the papists say the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth onlie in the same degree of faith with these thinges that are written Proofe 1. Esay 8. 20. To the lawe and the testaments if they speake not accordinge to this worde it is because there is no light in them Argument That which speaketh not accordinge to the lawe and testimonie hath no truth and is not to be credited as the lawe But papists traditions are so CHAMP The answere to your argument shall be to returne it vppon you in this manner That which speaketh accordinge to the lawe and testimonie is true and is to be credited as the lawe it selfe But such are catholike traditions Ergo. PILK Proofe Gall. 1. 8. 9. But thoughe we or an Angell from heauen preach anie other gospell vnto you then that which we haue preached lett him be accursed as we sayd before so say I nowe againe if anie man preach anie other gospell vnto you then you haue receiued lett him be accursed Argument That which is not the same but another besides that which Paule preached is not to be credited but accursed But popish traditions are so CHAMP I must needes say that the catholike doctrine shoulde be verie weake indeede if it should be ouerthrowne with such lame and limpinge arguments that haue not so much as one good legge to stand vppon And what shall we say then of the protestants doctrine that is supported by such bean-strawe pillars Your maior were it true woulde conclude all the Apostles writinges besisides S. Paules to be accursed at leaste in all such thingeâ— as are not found in S. Paule Your minor may as easilie be affirmed of S. Iohns Gospell or anie other booke of the bible So that your conclusion is like to be verie protestanticall See therfore howe stronglie you haue prooued your protestant position or antithesis and consequentlie howe deepelie you haue wounded your aduersarie Euer so blinde may the enemies of gods churche be to impugne it in this manner so longe as they doe impugne it PILK Proofe 2. Petri. 1. 18. 19. And this voice which came from heauen we heard when we were with him in the holy Mount We haue also a more sure worde of prophecie whereunto you doe well that you take heede as vnto a light that shineth in a darke place vntill the day dawne and the day-starre arise in your harts Argument That which is more firme and sure then reuelation from heauen not then written is more to be credited then anie thinge nowe not written but the scriptures are such CHAMP Doe you thinke that the writinge of anie reuelation maketh it more firme or that it receiueth anie increase of authoritie thereby you seeme to be of this opinion but it is moste absurde to thinke For the authoritie all reuelations haue is from God almightie and not from the writinge of them in paper or parchment And therefore the prophecie S. Peter speaketh of whether it were written or vnwritten for he saith not it was written but rather the contrarie tearminge it a propheticall speach or sermon is sayde by him to be more firme then the testimonie receiued in the holy mount because that had been auncientlie promulgated credited and receiued whereas this had neuer yett bin preached or proposed to be beleeued and therefore no maruell though that were esteemed more firme then this hitherto hadd been not because this had not been written but because it had not been preached or published att all till that tyme. PILK Proofe Iohn 5. 36. 37. 38. 39. But I haue greater witnes then that of Iohn for the workes which the Father hath geuen me to finishe the same workes that I doe beare witnes of me that the Father hath sent me And the Father himselfe which hath sent me hath borne witnes of me Yee haue neither heard his voice at anie tyme nor seene his shape And yee haue not his worde abidingâ— in you for whome he sent him yee beleeue not Searche the scriptures for in them yee haue eternall life and they are they which testifie of me Argument That which is greater then the testimonie of Iohn is more to be credited then anâ—e thinge not written But the scriptures are greater then the testimonie of Iohn CHAMP The farther you goe the more foolishe and impertinent still you