for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction as you terme it For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to they desired the one to assist them with his autoritie the other not to chalenge power in their Church causes A great fault of yours to say that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office when they dealt against his vsurped prerogatiue Greater if you did it wittingly and willingly Wherof your Annotations do geue strong suspicion in that hauing quoted all the other places they lâ—â—ue this vnquoted least the reader should find the fraude Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations They who set them downe knew their own meaning and will I warrant you maintaine it But what a souerainty the Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this as D. Stapleton sheweth that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it For the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice the first generall Councell sent their epistle to Pope Siluester beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined Rainoldes The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope Their epistle is forged and he who forged it was not his craftes-master For one of the Fathers pretended to haue writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople Whereas Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the date of this epistle but was called Bizantium neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time but Alexander Moreouer they are made to request the Pope that he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie Which is a droonken spéech sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one that one was himselfe Unlesse they vsed the word citie as the Pope answering them in like sort that he conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie And so it is more sober but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice Finally neither Eusebius who was at the Councell nor Rufinus nor Socrates nor Theodoret nor Sozomen nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing Only Peter Crabbe the setter foorth of it had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein But wheÌ„ce had the Fryers it Hart. The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople the second generall Councel wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees And that is witnessed by Theodoret. Rainoldes It is and so witnessed that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie which D. Stapleton would proue by it For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus Ambrose Britto Valerian Ascholius Anemie Basill and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome Nor only to them but to the Emperour Theodosius Yea to Theodosius in seueral and more forcibly For they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances Wherefore if the Pope haue such a supremacie whose consent and liking therof they desired what supremacie hath the Emperor whom they besought to ratifie them and to confirme them Hart. Nay your own distinction of power and authoritie dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine were true and of discipline good though he had not confirmed them But more would accept of them as good and true through his word countenance As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Rainoldes Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true of false or good of euill but to make his subiectes vse them as good and true being so in déede Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus For the doctrine of Christ which they decréed was true the discipline good though he had not consented to it But more would accept of it as good true through his agréement and allowance As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit for which they desired his consent to their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone but of other Bishops to like thereof also that the Christian faith being agreed vpon and loue confirmed amongst them they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort For S. Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell and confirmed all thinges that were done therein Rainoldes S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus but of Sixtus Howbeit if he had yet this would proue autoritie still and not power As Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril and the authoritie of Caelestinus But these very wordes of Cyrill touching Sixtus doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels For the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession Notwithstanding Sixtus who succéeded him did confirm it afterward In déede the truth dependeth neither of CouÌ„cel nor of Pope though wheÌ„ Popes Councels were good godly minded they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth For as Ioshua sayd to all the tribes of Israel euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde choose you whom you will serue whether the Gods which your Fathers serued or the Gods of the Amorites but I and my house will serue the Lord so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold whether it please the tribes that is the Church or no. But the Church is named the piller and ground of truth in respect of men because it beareth vp the truth and confirmeth it through preaching of the word by the ministerie of Priests in the old testament and Bishops in the new whom therefore Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth Now the more there be of these who maintaine it and the greater credit they haue amongst men the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be and many yéeld the sooner to it For which cause the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul though assuredly true yet was coÌ„firmed by Iames Peter and Iohn who were counted to be
not name him And S. Ambrose saith of that promise of Christ I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the rest which followeth that what is said to Peter is said to the Apostles And Ierom saith that the foundation and firmenesse of the church lay on all the Apostles equally and they did all receiue the keyes And Origen saith that Christes promise of building his church of giuing the keyes of binding and loosing made as to Peter onely was common vnto all And Hilarie saith in like sort that through the worthinesse of their faith they obtained the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of binding and loosing in heauen and earth Neither doo I doubt but other of the Fathers haue said as much as these in the expounding of these words But haue they or not this is no path for vs to walke in if we séeke the right way For neither might we hope for an ende of our trauels because of sundrie expositions one contrarie to an other and we should faint for thirst in time of heate and drouth looking for water in the wildernesse as the trauellers of Tema and that is woorst of all sometimes wee should leaue the pure water of truth and swill vp puddle in stéed of it For although the Fathers were men indued of God with excellent gifts and brought no small light to vnderstanding of the scriptures yet learned men in our dayes may giue a right sense of sundrie places thereof which the Fathers saw not yea against the which perhaps they consent Hart. The Councell of Trent condemneth them that say so Rainoldes As learned men as any were at that Councell say it And they doo it too Hart. Who Caluin and Beza Rainoldes Truely I doo iudge no lesse of their learning And if I be of any iudgement I iudge not parcially in it But thinke of thē as you list S. Austin hauing folowed S. Cyprian in expounding a certaine place of Scripture afterward did finde in Tyconius the Donatist an other exposition which thinking to be truer he preferred it before Cyprians Whereby you may sée that although you thought as yll of Caluin and Beza as did S. Austin of the Donatists yet if you had S. Austins minde you would rather follow the sense which they giue sometimes of the scriptures then that which is giuen by auncient godly Fathers Neuerthelesse my minde was not of them when I mentioned learned men For to what purpose Sith I am not ignorant how small account you make of them My minde was of your owne men who say so and doo so Hart. What Against the Councell of Trent UUho bée they Rainoldes First the flower of your Cardinals the Cardinall Caietan beginning to expound the scriptures dooth set it downe for a principle that God hath not tied the exposition of the scriptures vnto the senses of the Fathers UUherefore if he fall vpon a new sense agreeable to the text though it go against the streame of the Fathers he doth aduise the reader not to mislike of it Hart. But the flower of our Bishops Bishop Melchior Canus misliketh the Cardinal for that his rash sentence and reprooueth it as an errour yea as the common sentence of heretikes and schismatikes Rainoldes But the flower of your Doctors D. Payua Andradius rebuketh this your Bishops reproofe as more rash yea defendeth Caietan against it as a slander He teacheth first that the Fathers doo in many places not expound the Scriptures according to the literall sense the onely which hath weight to proue pointes of faith but allegorically and morally We may leaue their allegories and expound them literally He teacheth next that when they seeke the literall senses of the scriptures they doo not alwaies finde them but giue diuers senses one vnlike an other We may forsake their senses all and bring a new vnlike to theirs Moreouer to make the thing euident by examples him selfe expoundeth sundry places otherwise then the Fathers haue declaring that hée doth it vpon sufficient ground Againe he proueth by the sayings of the chiefe of the Fathers that they spake not oracles whē they expounded the Scriptures but might therein be deceiued He sheweth furthermore that the ouersightes of the translatiō which they followed must cause them needes to misse sometimes the right meaning of the holie Ghost Finally he addeth that experience forceth vs to confesse vnlesse we will be vnthankfull to most excellent wittes that verie manie things in Moses and the Prophets are in this our age expounded more exactly through the diligence of learned men then euer they were before Whereupon he concludeth that the holy Ghost the onely and faithfull interpreter of the Scriptures would haue manie things to be knowne to vs which our auncestors knew not and hath wrought by meanes vnknowne to vs knowne to him that the Fathers noted good and godlie mysteries out of verie manie places of the Scriptures whereof the right and naturall sense hath beene found out by the posteritie This is in few words the iudgement of Andradius which he prosecuteth more at large in the defense of Cardinall Caietan against quarellers who did cauill at him because he wrote that it is lawfull to go against the streame of the auncient Fathers in expounding of the Scriptures Hart. I care not for the iudgement of Andradius or Caietan or any other priuate man though you could bring a hundred of them I doo not build my faith on them Rainoldes Although you care not for their iudgement yet you should care for their reasons Of which the light is so great that vnlesse a man haue altogether lost his eyes he can not choose but see the truth and brightnesse of them Neither may you set so litle by their iudgement chiefly the iudgement of Andradius If you doo it may be the price of his contempt will helpe to purchase your confusiō For the Councel of Trent the fairest flower of your garland chiefest piller of your faith is but the consent of a few such as Andradius was or rather none such perhaps Let the Italians witnes it who wondred at his gifts Theyloue not them selues so ill as to woonder at common thinges in straungers A great token of it that the faith of Trent most iustly charged by Kemnicius who tried the Spirit of the Councell and proued it the Spirit of errour found no man to defend it but Andradius to speake of For Tiletan is a trifler not woorthy to be named the same day that he is But let the Authours with their reasons be proofes of no value and grant that if the Fathers all consent in one their exposition must be stood too What if the Fathers dissent in expounding a place of the Scripture as oftentimes they doo Which of their expositions must we follow then Hart. If one expound a thing otherwise then all the rest the rest must be
pillers yea by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem and being so confirmed was receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche and in other cities in so much that the Churches were stablished in the faith and increased in number daily The men of God therfore who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth desired the consent some time of all Bishops as in the Councell of Sardica sometime of the Pope as in the Councell of Carthage not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them And that generall Councels if they had desired the Pope to confirme them which all of them did not but if they had done so yet must haue done it in this consideration you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent euen Andradius Who not only voucheth that most learned mē do most wisely thinke it as Alfonsus namely but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata the chéefest patrone of the Pope for proofe of the same or rather of a farther point For if there shoulde happen such a case sayth the Cardinal that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree men ought in my iudgement to obey the Councell therein and not the Pope And why Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope not in power of iurisdiction but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges and in amplenesse of knowledge Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors that to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had not power and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither no not as much as equall but inferiour to them So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction wherin his supremacie doth principally stand And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria Paul of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucian of Adrianople and very many other Bishops of the East being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians did appeale to the Pope as ecclesiasticall stories shew Rainoldes The stories shew it not but he who sayth they shew it sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point as in the former with S. Cyrill Hath he abused you so often and will you neuer cease to credit him Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully Rainoldes The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome in restoring them was but of autoritie and honour not of power For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome Which Iulius himself and Athanasius both do testifie Athanasius who speaking thereof ascribeth it plainly to the Councell Iulius who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement and thereto had requested a Councell to be called that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell and they who should haue also appeered made defaute that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed to be short that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein he did it on the Coūcels iudgement and consent not on his owne head Wherefore it was not the Pope but the Councell that heard and determined the causes of Bishops whether at first or on appeales Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime nor Athanasius giue him Hart. Yes there is an other epistle of Iulius wherein hée claimed such power and that vpon the canons of the Councell of Nice Rainoldes I told you of epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes This is one of them It should be the very same that I alleaged extant in Athanasius But it is no liker it then black is to white The canons which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers bewray the lewdnesse of it The more because Iulius in the same epistle as Athanasius hath it citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle as it is confessed you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit Hart. Yet Socrates Sozomē report that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell therein they did vnlawfully because it was prouided by a law of the Church that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide Rainoldes If Iulius had writen so to the Arians Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth For by the Nicen Canons which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time it was ordered that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius as Stapleton doth now And whereas he had said know ye not that this is the maner and custome that ye should write to vs first that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust they thought that he had spoken of himselfe belike and had meant the Pope by the word vs by which he meant the Councell For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name as Athanasius noteth and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before ye ought to haue written vnto all vs that so that which is iust might be decreed by all Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too For the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one and Theodoret himselfe the other Rainoldes Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of Leo himselfe complayning to the Emperour Theodosius
them and the Pope hath robbed them The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 of Ephesus of Chalcedon of Constantinople est soones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie HART The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie For the Church is the piller and ground of the truth Rainoldes The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth in office and dutie and the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But as there were Priestes who did not their message in shewing Gods will so there may be Churches which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth Hart. Nay that is true still which the Church teacheth For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller ground of the truth but that it is so Rainoldes Neither doth Malachie say that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes but that hée is so And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that and to whom Hart. To Timothee that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God Rainoldes The Church then which Timothee was conuersant in and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof is called by S. Paule the piller and grounde of the truth Hart. It is and what then Rainoldes But the Church which Timothee was conuersant in was the Church of Ephesus The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth Now the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie nor only that Church but other of the East too Wherefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie Hart. The Churches of the East haue erred therein But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other Rainoldes That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers For except the crew of the Italian faction who haue aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie and do till this day Hart. All Christian Churches who did euer say so before you or what one witnesse haue you of it Rainoldes The Pastors and Doctours in Synodes and Councels wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment ech in their seuerall ages For to begin with the ancientst and so come downe to our owne it was in Cyprians tyme ordeined by them al that euery mans cause should be heard there where the fault was committed Hart. That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes not the last For they might be heard at Rome vpoÌ„ appeales if being heard at home first the parties were not satisfied Rainoldes The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike who excommunicated them Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome Wherefore the ordinaunce that he groundeth on did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first last and all against such as appealed if you so tearme it to Rome Which he maketh plainer yet in that he calleth those Rome-appealers home if vpon repentaunce they séeke to be restored and sayth that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may haue accusers and witnesses of their fault and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike vnlesse a few lewde desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to haue lesse autoritie by whom they were iudged alreadie and condemned Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome but with the Bishops of Fraunce Spaine Greece or Asia and chiefly of Numâ—dia Rainoldes You were better say as a Iesuit doth that Cyprian hath no such thing then answer so absurdly For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such as the parties whom they had coÌ„demned did run to for remedie And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike Italie and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes Hart. Why doth S. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian a Nouatian heretike Bishop of Arle in Fraunce and to substitute an other in his roome a Catholike Rainoldes Nay why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so whereas he doth not For he desireth Stephen to write to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him and to the prouince and people of Arle to choose a new Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie Who neither could depose Bishops at that time as also the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them which then a Synode did neither when a Bishop was orderly deposed could he create an other but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him Yea a Bishop chosen by them was lawfull Bishop though the Pope confirmed him not yea though he disallowed him as it is declared by a Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen Wherefore Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop but ought to giue his neighbours counsell to doe it for the common dutie that euery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ to helpe them when they are in daunger And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging deposing creating Bishops nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes as I shewed it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of the Pope or to say it with the wordes of Cardinal Siluius Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome Hart. Yet there was a Councâ—l holden at Sinuessa or Suessa as some say before the Councel of Nice And there wheÌ„ Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vnto idols the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie Rainoldes That Councell is a counterfeit As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian
that which was common to all the Apostles by the meaning of Christ you chalenge as proper vnto Peter onely For as the confession of Peter touching Christ shewed their common faith by the mouth of one so the answere of Christ directed vnto one conteined that blessing that should be common to them all And this is declared by the holy scripture which to the Ephesians mēbers of the church saith that they are built vpō the foundatiō of the Apostles Prophets Not of Peter onely but of the Apostles who lay the same foundation all that Peter did and thereupon are called all of them foundations And the church relying vpon their doctrine that is the Christian faith the onely and sure foundatiō of the church as the truth hath forced your owne mouthes to witnesse may bee iustly saide to be built on them euen as well on all of them as on Peter Wherfore by the proportion that you grate vpon of a foundation to a house and a head to a bodie as Christ is head onely so is he the onely foundation of the Church as the name of foundation is giuen to the Apostles so the twelue foundations doth proue them twelue heads You must séeke therefore some other foundation of Peters headship ouer them For neither the name of stone that Christ gaue him nor the wordes of building his church vpon that stone proue that he promised him to make him head of all the Apostles Hart. Not in your iudgement but in mine they doo And so dooth the other part of the promise also which Christ made vnto him To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heuen For by the name of keyes is signified the fulnes of ecclesiasticall power But to giue the fulnes of ecclesiasticall power is to make him head Therefore Christ did promise to make him head of the church Rainoldes These keyes will not open more in the house then did the foundation lay in the building For if you meane by fulnes of ecclesiasticall power the lawfull power of the Apostleship then the which no greater was euer giuen to anie ministers of the church Christ gaue it both to Peter and to euerie Apostle If you meane such power as the Pope claimeth by fulnes of power a soueraine power not onely spirituall but also temporall Christ gaue it neither to Peter nor to anie Apostle So that in the former sense al were heads in the latter none and thus your headship proued by neither But what soeuer you meane by fulnes of power this is cleere and certaine that our Sauiour promised no more power to Peter then he meant and performed to all the Apostles And therefore what soeuer he promised to him he promised in him to them For as amongst them when they were all asked Whom say ye that I am Peter answered alone Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God so Christ said to him alone I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen as though he had alone receaued power to bind and loose whereas he made that answere one in stead of them all and receiued this power one togither with them all Wherefore sith no more was promised then giuen and equall power was giuen to all the Apostles this promise proueth not your headship You must bring vs foorth some better euidence or else your title will be naught Hart. The euidence is good For it saith in plaine and expresse termes that Christ would giue the keyes to Peter Then the which what could be more manifestly spoken Rainoldes In shew to the simple Chiefely when they sée the matter set forth as that is at Rome where Christ is painted out not as promising Peter that he would giue him keyes but as giuing them to him at that present and giuing them to him alone not to all the Apostles with the wordes of Christ paraphrased feately thereto by some poet Be thou the Prince of pastors to thee alone is giuen The power to shut the dore of heauen and eke to set it open Pastorum princeps esto tibi ius datur vni Claudere celestes reserare fores Hart. Nay the very words as they lie in scripture are plainer in shew for vs then for you which also may be noted in other pointes of controuersie betwéene you and vs. As about the reall presence this is my bodie For Christ did not say this is a signe of my bodie And againe the bread that I will giue is my flesh He said not it is but the signe of my flesh Rainoldes Neither do we say that Christ did so meane in this of flesh and bread For we teach that the true bread the bread of God which came downe from heauen and giueth life vnto the world is Christ euen the flesh the very flesh of Christ that is Christ incarnate The greater wrong they do vs who lay to our charge that we expound it not of the thing but of a signe themselues indéede guiltie thereof expounding it of a sacrament of Christ where it is meant of Christ him selfe the word that was made flesh But what if in the other place and sundry mo the wordes of the scripture bee plainer in shew for you then for vs It is not the shew but the sense of the wordes that doth import the truth and must decide controuersies For wordes were ordained to open the meaning and minde of him that speaketh them The meaning of the word of God is alwaies true because God who speaketh it is true and cannot lie The shew of it is false sometimes and deceitfull as men are whose iudgement this shew dependeth of and that may séeme to them to be meant by it which is not meant by God Wherfore it is not the shew but the sense the substance not the semblance of the wordes of scriptures that you must proue doth make for you in points of controuersie if you will proue ought Hart. Why do you graunt then that the wordes of scripture make more for vs in shew though not in substance then they doo for you It were not good for you that this should be knowne Rainoldes What Not that the wordes of scripture sometimes make more for you then vs in shewe though not in substance Yes truely M. Hart and for the Anabaptistes too that Christians had all things common And for Pope Clemens too that wiues must be common because in all things wiues are implyed also And I am so farre from being afraid that this should be knowne that euen in the very example which you mētion as making for you most I grant that the words of Christ this is my body are plainer in shew though not for your monster of transubstantiation yet for your reall presence then for our sacramentall But so that I graunt the same in like maner of other sacramentall and
they do go with him or else the oth-maker meant not to bind you to it Let vs giue a passeport then vnto the Fathers It may be that the man was moued in conscience by light of truth to vary from them Let vs heare what moued him The same is not meant saith he by the keyes and by the wordes to bynd and loose as some men haue thought And why For all the Schoolemen are of opinion that to bynd and loose doth note a power iudiciall in the outward court onely to remit and retayne sinnes in the inward court By the outward court he meaneth the consistorie wherein the church-discipline and censure is exercised By the inward court the conscience wherein a mans trespasses and sinnes are bound or loosed So in effect he saith that the power of remitting sinnes and censuring sinners were onely meant in the spéeches of Christ to the Apostles and not the most ample and large power of keyes promised to Peter by the iudgement of all the Schoolemen Which proofe though it cannot weigh as much for him as the Fathers against him yet herein his dealing is orderly and plaine that leauing the Fathers he cleaueth to the Schoolemen For when all is done the Schoolemen are the men that must vphold Papistrie with the fréendly helpe of the Canonists their bréethren The Scriptures and Fathers would be pretended for a shew to countenance the matter But they are like to images in olde buildings of antike worke which are framed so that with their shoulders they séeme to beare the roofe whereas that in déed doth rest on walles or pillars The Schoolemen and the Canonists the fountaines of the corruption which hath infected the Church of Christ the Schoolemen in doctrine by the opinions of Popery the Canonistes in discipline by the state of the Papacie the Schoolemen and the Canonists are the two pillars that vphold your Church as the house of Dagon in the which the Philistines triumph and insult ouer the faith and God of Samson What then if the Schoolemen whose oppositions of science falsely so called are noted by S. Paule that Timothee may auoid them who the most ofthem came with féete vnwashed into the Lordes sanctuarie who being ignorant of the tongues wherein the holy Ghost wrote great helpes to vnderstand his meaning searched not the sense of scripture in the scripture but in humaine sense and so expounded it thereafter what if they say that to bynd and loose doth make a iudge onely in the outward court to remit and retayne sinnes in the inward court and both import lesse then the keyes which open all in court and country I haue prooued the contrary by conference of the Scriptures You can not deny but that the Fathers teach the contrary Where is your discretion Who though the Scriptures as we proue the Fathers as you graunt do say it is so yet you say it is not so because the Schoolemen thinke not so As if you should say in a matter of state which is allowed and ordained by the Quéene and Councell that although they will it yet may it not be doone why because the Yeomen of the kitchin like it not Hart. If you beleeued so rightly as you ought with Catholikes you would not thinke so basely of Schoolemen as you do For as Melchior Canus writeth well and truely the contempt of Schoole-diuinitie is a companion of heresie the heresies of Luther of Wicklef of Melanchthon and in a word of all the Lutherans do seeme to haue flowed most from that fountaine euen from the despising of the Schoolemens iudgement But howsoeuer you estéeme them their common opinion when they all consent and agree in one is of such weight with vs that we account it a point of great rashnes and almost of heresie to dissent from them They haue not such ornaments offiner learning and the tongues as some in our daies haue but they haue the substance the pith of all sciences chiefely S. Thomas of Aquine one of the grauest and learnedst diuines that euer Christes church had whatsoeuer ignorant heretikes which vnderstand him not esteeme of him Rainoldes My iudgement of the Schoolemen is such as they deserue If Canus haue iudged more fauourably ofthem hée is to be borne with sith him selfe desired to be thought a Schoolman Though if I should graunt them as much as he doth that when they all agree in one they must be folowed they would not trouble vs greatly in many pointes of faith For they are at such contention for themost part and that about such matters that S. Paules reproofe of questions and strife of words neuer fel on any more iustly then on them But as Canus speaketh of Schoole-diuines and Schoole-diuinitie he and I dissent not though I bée against them and he for them in shew Sophocles the poet a writer of tragedies being asked ofhis frend why whē he brought in the persons ofwomen he made them alwaies good whereas Euripides made them badde because I quoth he doo represent women such as they should be Euripides such as they be So the matter fareth betweene me and Canus For he dooth paint out Schoolemen such as they should be and I such as they be I speake against them who peruerting the scriptures haue prophaned diuinitie with philosophie or rather sophistrie and yet are called Schoole-diuines whē they are neither Schollers in truth nor Diuines He accoūteth none a Schoole-diuine but him who reasoneth of God and thinges concernyng God fitly wisely learnedly out of the holie scriptures ordinances of God Now if none be a Schoole-diuine but such nor any diuinitie Schoole-diuinitie but that which is set on the foundations of the holie scriptures as Canus doth define it then shall I gladly both yéeld to Schoole-diuinitie follow Schoolediuines but I deny them to be Schoole-diuines whom you meant in citing Schoolemen Yea euē Thomas of Aquine whō your Popes set more by then by al the Doctors placing him as chiefest and first after the scripture and worthily for he was the first thorough-papist of name that euer wrote and with his rare gifts of wit learning and industrie did set out Popery most that he might well be praysed as the standerd-bearer of the fayth mainteined by the Councell of Trent euen him will I folow so lōg as he sheweth himself such a Schoolman as Canus prayseth to vs. But he sheweth not himself such a Schoole-man whē he doth as he doth oft so much we vnderstand in him kepe down the truth set vp errour either by mistaking the scripture against scripture or by holding the corruptions of faithfull men as incorrupt or by following the glimses of Philosophers as perfit light By mistaking the scripture through faultie translations or expositions of men By the corruptions of the faithfull in the practise of the church or some opinions of Fathers By the glimses of Philosophers in taking
greatest danger of Peter he putteth him in minde first of his fall to humble him then of his rising to comfort him last of his duetie to quicken him vnto it His fall to coole the heate of pride and vaine glorie may I so terme it with the Fathers wherein hee presumed more then the rest did of his faith and constancy His rising that he should not despaire when he had fallen For though he dealt vnfaithfully denying Christ thrise yet his faith should not faile because he whom God doth alwayes heare had praied for him His duetie that being raised vp againe he should strengthen his brethren as hauing learned by experience both to haue compassion of the infirmitie of men to preach the goodnes and mercy of God The last point of his duetie was common to him as I haue shewed with the Apostles and therefore proueth no preeminence of supreme headship The first of his fall proueth a kinde of preeminence but in the denying of Christ aboue others which Popes haue best right to but they doo not claime it The other of his rising insueth and dependeth on that of his fall wherin sith he specially would sinne more then the rest and so his danger be more speciall and therefore néede more speciall succour Christ said to him in speciall But I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not For Christ prayed the same for all his Apostles in sense though not in word by that solemne prayer made vnto his father I haue declared thy name vnto them holy father keepe them in thy name and sanctifie them with thy truth Neither did he pray this for them onely but for all the faithful which should beleeue in him through their word Wherfore as a good father hath care of all his children but if he sée some one distressed aboue the rest wil cheare him vp beside the rest a good Physition hath care of all the bodie but applieth plaisters to the part affected so Christ to helpe Peter who was to be distressed diseased most encouraged him with this comfort that his faith should not faile and laide that salue of Gods assured fauour on the sore of distrust that might afflict his minde Now this care and wisedome of a father and a Physition doth shew for the childe part whereto they tender it not that they be in greater honor then the rest but that they stand in greater néede The wordes of Christ therefore spoken vnto Peter I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not doo proue that he stood in greater danger then the rest not that he was in greater dignitie And these are the words of which D. Stapleton doth insolētly vaunt that they are so singular for Peters supremacy that Caluin when he had diligently weighed all other places reasons that are wont to be brought for it refuted them as he could made no mention at all of this place these words because he knew well that it was impossible to shift of words so manifest with any colour of a cauill Whereas it is most likely that Caluin a wise faithfull seruant of the Lord did therfore passe them ouer in handling your supremacy because he knew they made so litle for your purpose that if he should haue brought them in amongst your reasons he might séeme to haue sought a shadow wherewith to fight For you abuse them so notoriously that if I say not Caluin but any of the meanest children of the Prophets whom God hath scarcely giuen one portion of his spirit to would deale with you for it we haue as iust cause to charge you with this fact as Tamar had to charge her brother Ammon with his vilany Hart. Good Lord what meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay I may rather aske good Lord what meane you so to doo For as Amnon enamoured of his sisters beautie ensnaring her by fraude did force her to his lust and after cast her out whervpon she said this euill was greater then the other which he had done vnto her so the Pope enflamed with loue of the church entrapping her with guile and vsing violence vnto her doth cast her out of doores by giuing this as proper first to Peter then to him selfe that Christ prayed for him that his faith should not faile Wherein I haue this reason to say that he doth greater euill vnto the church then was the other which he did because in the other she had this comfort left that the transgression was rather his who did then hers who suffered force in this he taketh from her all comfort of her misery and maketh her ashamed to cast her eyes on God or man For what is the comfort of the Churche of Christ the faithfull and elect but that he hath prayed for vs that wée fayle not that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against vs that our hope might be an ancre of strong consolation that we doo beléeue and are assured by Gods spirite wee are the heires of life eternall of the which comfort that incestuous Amnon séeketh to bereaue vs and cast vs out of the doores when he saith that Christ prayed for Peter onely and after Peter for the Pope But of the Pope in due place Now we speake of Peter Hart. Why Dare you deny that Christ spake to Peter and to Peter onely when he said Simon I haue prayed for thee that thy faith should not faile Dooth not the very text of the Gospell shew it Rainoldes What Dare you deny that Christ spake to the man sicke of the palsie and to him onely when he said Sonne be of good comfort thy sinnes are forgiuen thee Dooth not the verie text of the Gospell shewe it But is this a proofe that other Christians haue not their sinnes forgiuen too And doo wée all beléeue in vaine when we beleeue forgiuenes of sinnes Or may you not affirme it with as good reason as you affirme the other of Peter not to faile in faith Are you the maisters of Israell who make so great boast of skill in all Diuinitie and doo you not know that Pastors and Preachers of whom Christ was the chiefest apply the generall doctrines of the lawe and Gospell to them in particular who néede to be reléeued thereby If I should say to some couetous man who grindeth the faces of the poore and buildeth vp his house with blood or ioyneth benefice to benefice and taketh charge of a flocke which he féedeth not Let thy conuersation be without couetousnesse for he hath saide I will not faile thee nor forsake thee doo I take this comfort of the prouidence of God from euery other Christian because I assure it to one in particular Or did the Apostle ouershoote himselfe in saying that to all the faithful which God said to Ioshua I will not leaue thee
nor forsake thee You haue your choyce take which you list either acquit vs or condemne him For if Christ meant to assure the faith of none but of Peter because he said to him I haue prayed for thee that thy faith should not faile then did God promise his gratious assistance to none but to Ioshua when he said to him I will not leaue thee nor forsake thee and the Apostle erred in saying it to all Christians If the Apostle saide that to all Christians by the spirit of truth then is it true in like sort that it may be said to any childe of God whom Satan hath desired to sift and shake as he did Peter and made him to denie Christ Be of good comfort for he hath said I haue prayed for thee that thy faith should not faile And if it may be said to any childe of God then was it verified in all the Apostles except the childe of perdition Wherefore Christ by saying of those words to Pâ—ter gaue him no Supremacy ouer the Apostles Hart. I cannot deny but that in some respect it may be truly saide to all the children of God if they fall as Peter did Yet I know not how me thinkes I cannot be perswaded but that it maketh somewhat for Peters supremacy Rainoldes No maruell For the noyse of it hath béene so great and loude about your eares in the Seminarie at Rhemes and other Popish schooles beyond seas that it hath made you dull of hearing and you cannot perceiue the still soft voice of the truth As we read of them who dwell about the fall of the riuer Nilus where it tumbleth downe from the hye mountaines that they are made deafe by the greatnes of the sound and noyse of the waters But tell me I pray doo you thinke that Christ made Peter supreme head by saying vnto him I haue prayed for thee or strengthen thy brethren Hart. What a question is that Why should I mention it vnlesse it proued his supremacie Rainoldes It is a question For if Christ made him supreme head by those wordes then the supreme head denyed Christ and that often and that with an oth too Whereof a very daungerous conclusion would folowe that the Pope may erre yea that is more deny Christ. Hart. I say not that Christ made him supreme head at that present time but prepared him as it were to make him supreme head after As D. Stapleton writeth that Christ by those wordes established Peters faith before that he bestowed the power of supreme head-ship vpon him in deed For he gaue that power after his resurrection when he said to him Feede my lambes feede my sheepe But those wordes of strengthning he spake before his death and did but insinuate therein giue an inkling that he would make him supreme head Rainoldes You haue said And your Doctor hath shewed herein a point of greater wit then many of his felowes But as of greater wit so of greater spite in adding thereunto that which now I touched that Caluin made no mention at all of those wordes because he knew well that they are so singular for Peters supremacie they could not possibly bee auoided For Caluin doth mention them in treating of the point whether the Pope may erre And your Doctor witnesseth him selfe that directly they concerne that point the supremacie but by an inkling The strength thereof then as touching the supremacie doth rest vpon that whereof they giue inkling it should be done after that is vpon the charge of feeding lambes and sheepe But it is proued that Christ gaue no more to Peter in that then to the rest of the Apostles It is proued therefore that the wordes of Christ strengthen thy brethren do raise no higher throne for Peter then for them Much lesse if the prayer that Christ made for Peter were common vnto him with all faithfull Christians and not with the Apostles onely Wherefore this reason which is so strong in your eies must be strengthned by his brethren if he haue any For sure he is a great deale too weake to strengthen them Hart. Yes he hath brethren And more peraduenture then you would be glad to see in the field as lustie as you are and thinke you can dispatch them all Rainoldes Not I saue with the aides of Elisaeus onely they that be with vs are mo then they that bee with them But let vs see what are they The fourth Chapter The practise of the Supremacie which Peter is intitled to imagâ—â—â—â— to be proued 1 by the election of Matthias to the Apostleship 2 〈◊〉 by the presidentship of the Councell held at Ierusalem 3 and by Paules iourney taken to see Peter and his abode with him Wherein as in other of the actes of the Apostles the equalitie of them all not the supremacie of one is shewed HART Examples of the practise of Peters supreme-headship in the gouernment of the Church Whereof we haue records in the holy scriptures euen in the Actes of the Apostles which are a paterne of Church-gouernment Rainoldes The reasons in deede which you gather thence are brethren to the former But they are no stronger then the former were If you bring them forth into the field you shall perceiue it Hart. There are many places but specially two by which Peters soueraintie ouer the Apostles is manifestly shewed For in the one he proposeth an election to bee made of a new Apostle into the roome of Iudas In the other he is President of the Councell of the Apostles which was held at Ierusalem he speaketh first and concludeth in it Out of both the which I gather this reason S. Peter did practise the power and authoritie of a supreme head ouer the Apostles Therefore hee was their supreme head Rainoldes Now are you come to that which I had an eye too when I desired you in the beginning of our conference to tell me what power you gaue vnto the Pope by calling him supreme head For in this grasse there lurketh a snake Which that you may see and if it be the gratious will of God auoide least that you perish through his venoom I will aske you a question When you say the Pope is chiefe and supreme head of ecclesiasticall iudgement and President of Councels doo you meane that the Pope in assemblies of Bishops is as the Speaker with vs in the Parlament to propose matters to them and aske their iudgementes and gather their voices that thinges may bee orderly handled and enacted by common consent Hart. As the Speaker No. But as the Prince rather Rainoldes Yea I say to you and more then the Prince For as thinges in Parlament cannot bee enacted without the Princes consent so neither can the Prince make actes without consent of the Lordes and Commons And when they are made by consent of them all they cannot be repealed by the Prince alone without
in the times I trow In déede they are not like For Peter was then a preacher of the Gospell as Pastors are now and the Pope now is a Prince of the world as Nero was then The fifth Chapter The Fathers 1 are no touch-stone for tryal of the truth in controuersies of religion but the Scripture onely 2 Their writings are corrupted and counterfeits do beare their names 3 The sayings alleaged out of their right writinges proue not the pretended supremacie of Peter HART What soeuer difference there is betwéen the Pope Peter in state and power of worldly gouernment yet Peter had the same authoritie and primacie ouer the Apostles which the Pope claimeth ouer all Bishops And this because you will not yéeld vnto the Scriptures I will proue by the Fathers whose testimonies of it are most cléere and euident Rainoldes Whether I or you refuse to yéeld vnto the scriptures let the godly iudge As for the Fathers I like your dealing well in part For I wished that first you would go through with the Scriptures and then when you had found nothing in them come to the Fathers afterward But I wish further if I might obteine it that you had the Scriptures in such price and honour as the word of God that no word of men should be matched with them to build your faith vpon For God hath giuen his word to be a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path that we may sée the way to heauen and walke in it And the holy Ghost saith that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise vnto saluation wise by instructing vs in the faith of Christ vnto saluation by leading vs to life through that faith Wherfore sith we conferre about a point of wisedome perteining vnto faith and life you should do very well to rest on the Scriptures as the onely touch-stone for tryall of the truth therin Hart. Now at length I heare that which I looked for I thought for all your duetifull words of the Fathers that you would come ouer to the Scriptures onely before you made an end Rainoldes Why Is my behauiour towarde men vndutifull because I am duetifull vnto God aboue them Hart. There is a worthy treatise of an auncient writer Vincentius Lirinensis against the profane innouations of all heresies a passing fine booke which it is wished that al such should read as wil know the truth You haue read it perhaps and what thinke you of it Is it not a golden booke Rainoldes The booke is good enough if it haue a wise reader Hart. Say you so Yet some there be of your side who are afraid of the name of Vincentius Lirinensis Rainoldes They are worse afraid then hurt for any thing that I know But what of Vincentius Hart. He saith it is so common a practise of heretikes to alleage the scripture that they neuer bring almost ought of their own but they seeke to shadow it with words of scripture too And hauing shewed this by sundry examples he addeth that therein they folow the practise of the Deuill their maister Who tooke our Sauiour Christ and set him on a pinnacle of the temple and said vnto him If thou be the sonne of God cast thy selfe down For it is written that he will giue his Angels charge ouer thee that they shall kepe thee in all thy waies with their hands they shall lift thee vp least perhaps thou dash thy foote against a stone If thou saith he be the sonne of God cast thy selfe down Why For it is written We must with great heede obserue and remember the doctrine of this place that when we see words of the Prophets or Apostles brought foorth by any men against the Catholike faith we way be assured by this great example of the authoritie of the Gospel that the Deuil doth speake by them Thus saith that auncient Father Vincētius Lirinensis Whose words do manifestly disproue your opinion that the truth of pointes in faith should be tryed by the scripture onely Rainoldes The ciuill law saith that it is vnciuill for a man not hauing weighed the whole law to giue aduise or iudgement some one parcell of it being alone proposed Your dealing with the wordes of Vincentius Lirinensis is guiltie of this vnciuilitie For he to instruct vs how we may continue sound in the faith against the guiles of heretikes and suttletie of Satan who doth transforme him selfe into an Angell of light teacheth that our Sauiour hath to this entent both forewarned vs of the danger and foreshewed vs a remedy Forewarned vs of the daunger in the precept that he gaue Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheepes clothing but inwardly are rauening wolues For what saith he is sheepes clothing but the sincere and soft words of the Scripture which are alleaged by false prophets as well as by the true What are the rauening wolues but the cruell meanings and senses of heretikes which vnder sheepes clothing do rent the flocke of Christ Foreshewed vs a remedy in the lesson that he adioined Ye shal know them by their fruites That is to say when they be gin not onely to alleadge those wordes but to expound them and citing them as true prophets do not interprete them as true prophets then are the wolues seene by their teeth and rauening then are their bloudy natures known for all their fleeces then are the faithfull teachers discerned from seducers the true Apostles from the false the Angell of light from the Angell of darknes the ministers of righteousnes from the ministers of Satan Which thinges set downe and prosequuted more amply and fully he draweth in fine vnto this conclusion the summe of all his treatise that although the scriptures alone be sufficient for all pointes of faith yet is it not sufficient to haue a shew of the wordes but we must also haue the substance of the sense that is the true and naturall meaning of the scriptures Now if this discourse of his be weighed whole and not a parcell of it seuered from the rest what can you proue thereby more then I will graunt Nay more then I haue graunted and proued alreadie when I shewed that the right sense of the scripture expounded by the scripture is the sword of Gods spirit wherewith all heresies must be vanquished The Deuill you say alleaged the wordes of the scripture against Christ. He did so Yet he alleaged thē not wholy entirely as Vincētius hath them but as the Euangelistes rehearse them maimedly Wherein if Vincentius obseruing the attempt that the Deuill alleaged the wordes of the scripture had withall obserued the suttletie of the tempter how he alleaged them hée might haue better noted the deceites of heretikes abusing scripture then he did and so haue better fensed the right-beléeuing Christians with power of scripture then he hath For he reporteth it so as if the Deuill had
alleaged that whole place of the scripture He will giue his Angels charge ouer thee that they shall keepe thee in all thy wayes with their handes they shall lift thee vp and so forth Whereas the deuill alleaging the rest of charge giuen to keepe him and vphold him left out of the middle wordes of keeping him in all his wayes because they made directly against that to which he did tempt Christ as I haue declared Wherefore if Vincentius had thought that the scripture is no sufficient stay for vs against heretikes because it is alleaged as well by false teachers as it is by true by the Deuill as by Christ he must haue rather craued pardon for not espying the policie of Satan then liking for impairing the credit of the word of God But although he saw not all in particular neuerthelesse in generall hee ioyneth with the truth For hee saith that heretikes followe the Deuill as oft as they bring foorth sentences of scripture by which beeing expounded amisse they goe about to maintaine theyr errours So that the scripture which heretikes bring foorth against the Catholike faith is the scripture taken in a wrong sense and misse-expounded by his iudgement But I meane the scripture expounded aright when I say that pointes of faith should be tried by the scripture onely The wordes of Vincentius therefore which you cited doo rather proue that which I defend then disproue it Neither make they more against vs then you vnles you begge all that which is in controuersie that Popery is the Catholike faith For then you may conclude that wee bring the scripture against the Catholike faith when we bring it against Popery An easie way to conquest if begging can procure you that But I minde not to giue it right to it you haue not You must winne it if you will weare it Hart. Whither that the faith of the Church of Rome which you call Popery be the Catholike faith or no because it is the later part of our conference concerning one faith I will not confound it with this of one head But what doo you meane to say that the wordes of Vincentius which I cited disproue not your assertion nor make against you more then vs when hée saith that heretikes doo alleage the scripture as also did the Deuill and you alleage it too and thinke it a sufficient fense of your opinions Rainoldes So doo you alleage it too doo you not And what is there against vs in those wordes more then against you would you not laugh at me if I should reason thus Heretikes alleage scripture so doo the Papists too therefore they are heretikes The Deuill alleaged scripture so dooth the Pope too therefore he is the Deuils scholer Hart. But we doo not alleage onely the scripture nor will be tried by it alone The heretikes appeale to nothing but to scripture and the Deuill alleaged the scripture only against Christ. Rainoldes This is more then you â—â—nde in the wordes of Vincentius it is your owne fansie He saith that heretikes do alleage the scripture that nothing else but it he saith not Neither could he haue said so without a lye For they alleage many reasons beside the scripture euen whatsoeuer helpeth to countenance their errors sometime the Church sometime Tradition sometime Councels sometime Fathers sometime Miracles sometime Visions sometime Succession of Bishops sometime such other Motiues as your Bristow calleth them Yea they haue greater aduantage for their errours against the catholike faith by these then by scripture For these may be truely alleaged against it as they haue bene often the scripture can neuer but falsely and wrongfully As for that the Deuill alleaged the scripture onely against Christ you thinke his example discrediteth the triall of truth in points of faith by the scripture onely And so it may séeme to a weake eye But to such as marke it with a sharper sight it dooth confirme it rather For that suttle serpent knowing what baites are fittest to take theÌ„ whom as a roaring lion he seeketh to deuoure is want to set vpon men with those perswasions which he is most lykely to seduce them by To one he promiseth knowledge of good and euill as to Eue an other he hardneth with lying wonders as Pharao the prophet he telleth of an Angels speech the king he deceiueth by the consent of false prophets to the Iewes he pretendeth the temple of the Lorde to the Heathens hée sheweth vniuersalitie and antiquitie in a word he leaueth no meanes vnattempted whereby he may intangle the soules of mankinde and wrappe them in the snares of death Wherfore as in his instruments he vseth other Motiues to preuaile with others so him selfe of likelihood would haue vsed them specially to Christ and not the scripture onely had he not knowne that onely scripture if any thing would preuaile with him Stapleton intending to perswade vs that Peter and by reason of Peter the Pope is supreme head of the Church saith that he will proue it by onely demonstration out of the scriptures in effect and that by onely scriptures it may bee proued fully enough and abundantly Is not this a token that we whom he séeketh to winne by his perswasions will not be woon thereto but onely by the scriptures So the Deuils practise in alleaging scripture onely to Christ is a great presumption that Christ accounted nothing a ground of faith and duetie but onely the scripture Whereof a surer argument is the whole behauiour of Christ against the Deuill whom in euery one of his three tentations he put to flight still with scripture It is written And although the Deuil to driue him from that hold alleaged scripture also yet Christ replied not with Fathers or Doctors or Rabbines of the Synagogue but with the word of his heaueÌ„ly Father and against the maimed wrested wordes of scripture he set the scripture alleaged rightly Wherefore let your Captaines instruct their souldiours as they list to get vs into the plaine fieldes of their Motiues out of our weake and false castle of onely scripture as a Licentiat termeth it the action of Christ is the instruction of Christians the Prince of darknes could not get him out of that neither shall the Princes band get out vs. Nay that this castle how weake and false soeuer false-harted weakelinges count it hath ordinaunce enough to shake your Motiues into fitters and can alone subdue all aduersarie powers I néede not the practise of Christ and word of God against you to proue it Your owne golden authour Vincentius Lirinensis saith it For himselfe affirmeth that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense But scripture is not scripture vnlesse it be taken in the right sense in the which alone it came from
God by inspiration and is the word of God Wherefore if you will take the golde of Vincentius you must grant that scripture alone is sufficient to trie the truth from errour and to mainteine the Catholike faith against heresie Hart. You doo not deale well in misreporting so the words of Vincentius For he setteth downe two meanes by the which we must fense our faith against the guiles of heretikes eschue their snares first by the authoritie saith he of the scripture then by the tradition of the catholike Church You leaue out altogither that which he saith of tradition and handle him in such sort as though he had spoken for the scripture onely Rainoldes It is not your purpose I hope to beguile mée by the colour of his wordes It may be that your selfe are beguiled in them For he by the traditiō of the catholike church meant the true and right exposition of the scripture made by faithfull pastors and teachers of the church as his owne words immediately shew And this I made mention of in that I said that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes if it be taken in the right sense the catholike sense hee calleth it You séeme to imagine that he meant by the worde tradition vnwritten verities as they haue bin termed or as you terme them now traditions which the Trent-Councell dooth account as much of as of scriptures and coupleth them togither to make a sufficient perfit rule of truth as though that onely scriptures were insufficient for it Which errour was so far from the minde of Vincentius that he saith expresly that he dooth not adde the traditiō of the Church to the authoritie of the scriptures as though that the scriptures were not thēselues alone sufficient for all thinges yea more then sufficient but to shew that because heretikes doo wrest and misse-expound the scriptures therefore we must learne their right sense and meaning deliuered to the godly by the ministery of the Church In which consideration as S. Paule writeth that he did deliuer according to the scriptures the things which he taught and therevpon nameth his doctrine traditions as you would say things deliuered so Vincentius mentioneth both the Churches tradition to note the ministerie of the Church deliuering the sense of scriptures and the Churches traditions to signifie the rules of faith according whereunto the scriptures are expounded as I haue shewed by scriptures Wherefore the wordes that your Vincentius speaketh touching the tradition and traditions of the Church do ioine hands with that which I did deliuer of the truth in pointes of faith to be tried by the scripture only Hart. You may not cary so the wordes of Vincentius away in a cloude For though he may séeme to haue meant in generall by the tradition of the Church the expounding of scriptures according to the rule of their right and Catholike sense which the Pastors of the Church deliuer yet comming to particulars he frameth that rule not out of the scriptures but out of the opinions which the Church holdeth in matters of religion For he asketh him selfe when heretikes pretend scriptures what shall the Catholikes doo How shall they discerne the truth from falshood in the scriptures Whereto he maketh answere that they must take the scriptures in the sense of the Church and therein they must folow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent By the which thréefold meanes to trie the truth he instructeth vs that we must hold that which the church of our time doth hold through all the world vniuersally If a part of Christendome diuide and cut it selfe from the faith of the whole then are we bound to folow the whole and not the part If the whole in our time be stained with any error then must we haue respect to the former time and cleaue to antiquitie If all in antiquity agreed not about it then looke too consent as what a generalll Councell did decree therof or if no such decree be what all the Fathers thought or if not all what the most euen they who continued in the faith and felowship of the Catholike Church And whatsoeuer we find that not one or two but all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually let vs be assured that we must hold also that without all doubt Thus Vincentius sheweth how he would haue the truth to be tried by the church if the church be soūd by the vniuersalitie of our own time if that be corrupt by the antiquitie of the former time if that be at variance by the consent of all or most of the Fathers Wherfore if you will stand vnto his iudgement to which you giue countenance as though you liked it you must not call the tryall of truth in religion to the scriptures onely but to the consent of the Fathers rather Rainoldes I liked his iudgement in the generall point touching the sufficiencie and perfitnes of scriptures which I know you like not though you make greater semblaunce of liking him then I. If in the particulars I mislike somewhat let the blame be laid vpon the blame-worthy not me who stand to that which he hath spoken well but him who falleth from it For laying his foundation as it were on a rocke he buildeth vp his house beside it on the sand That scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense expounded by the rules of the Catholike faith this hath hée well auouched as on the rocke of Gods word But that the rules of faith and sense of the scripture must be tried and iudged by the consent antiquitie and vniuersalitie of the Church this hath he added not so well as on the sand of mens opinions The difference of the pointes may be perceiued by S. Austin who ioining in the former of them with Vincentius doth leaue him in the later For Austin as he setteth the ground of religion in the right sense and Catholike meaning of the scripture so teacheth he that this must be knowne and tried by the scripture it selfe the infallible rule of truth not by the fickle minds of mē And to haue taught hereof as Austin doth it had agreed best with the foundation of Vincentius which maketh the rule of scriptures alone sufficient for all thinges But because the weaker and ruder sort of Christians haue not skill to know the right exposition of scripture from the wrong therefore he tempering him selfe to their infirmitie doth giue them outward sensible markes to know it by Wherein he dealeth with them as if a Philosopher hauing saide that a man is areasonable creature should because his scholers cannot discerne of reason whereof the shew is such in many brute beastes that some haue thought them reasonable describe him more plainely by outward markes and accidents as namely that he hath two feete and no
feathers They report that Plato defined a man so a man is a liuing creature two-footed vn-feathered For which definitioÌ„ when he was commended Diogenes tooke a Capon and hauing pluckt his feathers off did bring him in to the schoole of Plato saying This is Platoes man The holy word of God is the same in the Church that reason is in a man Whereupon we giue it for an essential marke as I may terme it of the Church by which the Church is surely known and discerned But the shew of Gods word is such in many heretikes as of reason in brute beastes that some who haue no skill to discerne that marke doo thinke it impossible to know the Church by it Your felowes hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidentall markes as namely by antiquity succession consent These are very plausible and many do commend them highly But he that hath halfe an eie of a Philosopher I meane a wise Christian néede not playe Diogenes in plucking feathers off to shew that these markes may agrée to a capon Now as they deale with the markes of the Church so doo you M. Hart with the markes of the truth Not Vincentius but you who couer your errors with the name of Vincentius and take thinges as necessary and sure proofes of truth which he did note as probable and likelye tokens of it onely For he deliuered them not as neuer failing but as holding often and such as albeit they doo hit sometimes yet do they misse sometimes also Whereof him selfe is witnesse in that he disproueth them the first vniuersality by the example of the Arians and flyeth from it to antiquitie the second antiquitie by the example of the Donatistes and flyeth from it to consent Hart. But the third consent he speaketh of as neuer failing as a necessarie token to know and trie the truth by as an essentiall marke and proper to the pointes of Catholike faith and truth And this is the marke which chiefly I regarded when I alleaged Vincentius that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers Rainoldes In déede he preferreth this marke before the rest as hauing held when they fayled Neuerthelesse he speaketh not so of it neither as that it may serue for tryall and decision of questions betwéene vs. For what doth he acknowledge to bee a point approued such as we are bound to beléeue by this marke Euen that which the Fathers all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually And who can auouch of any point in question that not one or two but all the Fathers held it nor onely held it but also wrote it nor onely wrote it but also taught it not darkely but plainely not seldome but commonly not for a short season but continually Which so great consent is partly so rare and hard to be found partly so vnsure though it might be found that him selfe to fashion it to some vse and certainetie is faine to limit and restraine it First for the matters that we are to seeke and follow their consent not in all litle questioÌ„s of the scripture but in the weighty pointes of faith Then for the persons that we must folow all or the greater part because in many pointes all of them consent not Finally which cometh néerest to our purpose he graunteth that there may such heresies arise as must be dealt withall by the scripture onely and not by the Fathers for purposing to shew both in what maner and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers he saith and confirmeth that neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort nor alwaies but only such as are new and greene to weete when first they spring vp before they haue falsisied the rules of auncient faith the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it and before the poyson spreading abroad farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers But heresies that are spread abroad and waxed old must not be set vpon in this sort because they by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth And therefore whatsoeuer profanities there be either of schismes or heresies that are waxed auncient we must in no case deale otherwise with them then either to conuince them if it bee nedeful by the authoritie of scriptures onely or at the least auoid them being of old time conuicted and condemned alreadie by the generall councels of Catholike Bishops Lo when heresies are growne to be in yeares auncient and ample in places when they haue got antiquitie and vniuersality then must we fight against them not by consent of Fathers but by the authoritie of the scriptures only This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis in that passing fine booke against the profane innouations of all heresies Is it not a golden senteÌ„ce Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth that heresies when they are spread far and haue long continued are to be confuted by the scriptures onely not by consent of Fathers is that which he dooth point too of endeuouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers a common practise of heresies if occasion and time serue them But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deale with vs by the consent of Fathers For neither are the doctrines which we professe heresies much lesse olde and ample heresies such as he speaketh of nor haue wée endeuoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers nay wée haue kept them and endeuour daily to set them foorth most perfitly But your heresies in déede although they sprang of late and may be counted new and greene yet haue they endeuoured to corrupt the Fathers since and haue done it The practise of Erasmus is famous therein Of whom to say nothing what censures haue béen giuen by other worthy men whoÌ„ Torrensis nameth Marian Victorius in CoÌ„mentaries that he set foorth vpon the former thrée tomes of S. Ierome reproueth most learnedly more then sixe hundred errours thrust into them by Erasmus either in expounding or ill correcting them And Torrensis in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin declareth sundry bookes to be S. Austins owne which Erasmus had noted as falsly fathered on him Wherefore if by Vincentius you minde to touch them who endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers cast out the beame out of your owne eie before you séeke a mâ—atâ— in ours Rainoldes Yet you sée by the way though you make hast away from it what rotten postes they be whereon as principall pillars your church and faith is built vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Of which it is shewed by Vincentius himselfe that heresies may iustly claime the two former vniuersalitie and antiquitie and make a faire chalenge to the third consent in processe of time so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their
and some of ceremonie so there are some pointes essentiall in iustice and some accidentall The essentiall pointes of iustice are the same in lawes of all common-wealthes For what is a law but a diuine ordinance commanding thinges honest and forbidding the contrarie The accidentall pointes doo and may vary according to circumstances of places times and persons So lawes of religion must be the same for substance in all Christian Churches in ceremonies they may differ as in the primitiue Church they did Wherefore the same faith and lawes of religion do no more inforce all churches to obey one Bishop then the same right and ordinances of iustice do require one Prince to rule all common-wealthes But what soeuer your fansie make you thinke of this point the place in Deuteronomie adiudging them to death who disobey the Priest can not helpe your fansie though it had béene meant of no other Priest but of the high Priest onely For Christ wheÌ„ he sent his Apostles to preach the Gospell said vnto them Whosoeuer shall not receaue you nor heare your wordes when yee depart out of that house or that city shake of the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall be easier for them of the land of Sodome and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement then for that citie Which wordes being spoken to all the Apostles not to Peter onely and therefore belonging to all their successors as well as to Peters doo shew that euery Bishop hath as great authoritie giuen him by Christ as the Priest had by that law in Deuteronomie In so much that Cyprian doth alleage it often by a better reason of proportioÌ„ then yours to proue the authoritie of Bishops each in seuerall ouer the flockes committed to them Hart. And what if a matter of religion be harder then Bishops each in seuerall be able to decide it What if they disagree and will not yéeld one to another Doth not wisedome shew that there must be a chiefe iudge to ende the controuersie to keepe the truth of faith and peace of the Church that it be not pestered with heresies and schismes Rainoldes The wisedome of God hath committed that chieftie of iudgement so to call it not to the soueraine power of one but to the common care of many For when there was a controuersie in the Church of Antioche about the obseruation of the law of Moses some Iewes teaching contrarie to that which Paule and Barnabas taught they ordeined that Paule and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go vp to Ierusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question And so by their common agreement and decrée the controuersie was ended the truth of faith kept and peace maintained in the Church After which example the Bishops that succéeded them made the like assemblies on the like occasions and by common conference tooke order for such matters both of doctrine and discipline as concerned in common the state of their Churches So did the Apostles and Apostolike men prouide against schismes heresies Their wisedome reached not vnto your policie of one chiefe iudge Hart. The profit of Councels and Synods of Bishops is very great we graunt For many eyes see more then one But it wil be greater if they be all counsellors vnto one gouernor then if they gouerne eche his owne and all in common For reason doth teach vs that the regiment of one which wee call a monarchie is better and worthier then the regiment of many as the Philosophers shew who write of Common-weales Rainoldes Reason is a notable helpe of mans weakenes if it be obedient to faith as a handmaide not rule it as a maistresse And humane artes wherein the Philosophers haue séene many sparkles of the truth of God by the light of reason are profitable instruments to set forth the truth so farre as they haue peace not warre with Gods worde But if the Philosophers haue erred as naturall men who neither doo conceiue the things of the spirit of God nor can know them if reason haue her eyes as it were dazeled because the light shineth in darkenesse and the darkenesse did not comprehend it then is it to be feared least as the Serpent seduced Eue through his suttletie so he beguile you by reason and you forget that lesson of the holy Ghost beware least there be any man that spoyle you through philosophie Which I say not so much in respect of this point of the Church gouernment as of your whole doctrine a mightie ground whereof in your Schoolemen is philosophie and your Iesuites challenge doth offer to proue it by naturall and morall reason For here if I would iustifie the cause by Philosophers it is â—asily shewed that the Churches state is a most perfite monarchie wherein Christ is king his lawes are the scriptures his officers are the Bishops not ordained to bée assistantes vnto one deputie but to be deputies all them selues euen Pastors of his flock guides rulers of his Church Howbeit if it differ from the kingly states of worldly coÌ„mon-weales which philosophie writeth off as it doth in part Philosophers must not maruel sith Christ hath declared his kingdoÌ„e is not of this world Indéede the Apostles thought of such a kingdome but Christ saide it should not be so amongst them as with the Princes of the Gentiles Which sentence of Christ your Popes not vnderstanding and wéening the Apostles to be forbidden nothing but an heathnish tyrannie and liking well a monarchie because Philosophers prayse it they haue raised a visible monarchie of their owne in steede of Christes monarchie and haue chaunged his kingdome which is not of this world into a worldly kingdome the kingdome of the Romanes as a Iesuit calleth it Neither contenting them selues with such a kingdome as Princes of the Gentiles had they make them selues Princes ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the earth Which is a greater monarchie then Philosophers like off as I coulde proue out of them if the Popes cause were to be handled in their schooles But because I list not to trifle out the time with idle discourses about pointes of State as your Rabbines doo to proue that a monarchie is the best regiment therefore against such reasons I laye that exception which Tertullian did of olde against heretikes What hath Athens to do with Ierusalem the schoole of philosophy with the Church of Christ The duetie of Christians is to search and weigh in matters of faith not what reason but what religion not what the Philosophers but what the Prophets Apostles not what mans fansie but what the Spirit of God doth say And so the former parts of your maine argument for the Popes supremacie are too weake to proue it The last is weaker then they both For that there should be one chiefe and highest Pastor of the Church in earth it hath some
he noteth two differences betweene a shepeheard and a theefe the one in their doctrine the other in their ende In their doctrine that a theefe entreth not in by the doore the lawfull way but the shepeheard entreth in by the doore that is he preacheth Christ. For Christ is the doore and by him the shepeheard leadeth his sheepe in and out to feede them and saue them In their ende that a theefe commeth to steale kill destroy that is to spoile them of their life of life spirituall and eternall but the shepeheard cometh that they may haue life and haue it in aboundance Whereby it is euident that Christ did meane the same by theeues and robbers here which other where by false Prophets Beware of false Prophets which come to you in sheepes clothing but inwardly are rauening woolues For els neither they could haue béene noted well by the propertie of woolues that is to kill destroy neither had his doctrine and diuision of teachers béene perfit to his purpose neither were his answer fit against the Pharises who touched him as a seducer and not as an intruder not for succession but for doctrine If you beleeue not me that this is the natural meaning of the text you may beléeue S. Austin who saith that to enter into the shepefold by the doore is to preach Christ whom who so preach not rightly they are theeues and robbers Of these for example hee nameth Arius who yet succéeded lawfully as D. Stapleton graunteth though he counte him a woolfe and not a theefe and a robber vpon a point that Austin saw not In which point his fansie carried him so farre that whereas Austin said we must loue the Pastour tolerate the hireling beware of the theefe he would adde to Austin and driue away the woolfe as though S. Austin meant not the woolfe by the theefe and driue away by beware belike nor Christ neither when he said beware of woolues How much more séemely had it béene for Stapleton to haue followed Austin with your best interpreters then so to haue corrected him Hart. He doth not correct him so much as varie from him and that not on his owne but on S. Cyprians iudgement a Father most auncient Whose definition if he liked better then hee did Austins why might he not take it Rainoldes Good reason if it were as true as S. Austins But what is that definition Hart. A theefe is he who climeth vp another way that is as Cyprian writeth who succeeding no man is ordained of him selfe Rainoldes These wordes are Cyprians wordes but the definition is Stapletons definition For Cyprian doth not write them more of a theefe then of a woolfe Hart. He writeth them of Nouatian who entred not in by the doore into the shepefold but climed vp another way Therefore he writeth them of a theefe Rainoldes He writeth them of Nouatian who was a false prophet and came in sheepes clothing but inwardly was a rauener Therefore he writeth them of a woolfe For Cyprian doth count Nouatian the heretike both a theefe and a woolfe Which proueth that sense that I gaue thereof against your distinction who seuer woolues from theeues But Stapleton in handling this place of Cyprian doth playe vs thrée feats which if they be marked will shew with what arte so many sayinges of the Fathers are interlaced in his bookes First he chaungeth the wordes For where it is in Cyprian a se ipso ortus est arose of him selfe Stapleton doth reade it a se ipso ordinatus est is ordained of him selfe Hart. It hath béene heretofore reade so in some printes Rainoldes It hath so but amisse For Nouatian was ordeined of others though vnlawfully as Eusebius sheweth and Cyprian did know Wherevpon that faâ—tie reading is amended in the later printes out of writen copies and a note reprouing it least it créepe in againe is left by Pamelius Whose edition sith Stapleton prayseth as best corrected and foloweth it for aduantage to chaunge a worde of it here in such sort it was a feate and had a purpose But the second feate doth excel this For because Cyprian saith of a théefe that he succeeding no man arose of him selfe Stapleton doth take him as though he had defined a theefe by those wordes Whereof he would haue the reader to conceiue that they who haue succession and are ordeined lawfully can not bee theeues a thing which Cyprian meant not But therein he dealeth with the wordes of Cyprian as if a man should say to define a doctour a doctour is he who interpreteth the scriptures that is as Cyprian writeth who doth corrupt the gospell and is a false expounder of it For these are Cyprians wordes and spoken of Nouatian Doctours But they were not spoken to define a doctour For then they should be verified as well of all doctours as they be of Doctour Stapleton Yet he who should define a doctour so to proue him one and that out of Cyprian should serue him such a feate as he doth serue a theefe and take him in the snare which him selfe hath framed Hart. As though that of theues some might be good and some naught There may be so of doctours Rainoldes No. But as doctours some are good some are naught and sith that both these qualities are incident into doctours a doctour should not be defined by eyther of them so theeues some succéede some doo not succéede and sith that both these qualities are incident into theeues no one of them can open the nature of a theefe nor both in déed pithily Wherefore to say in defining a theefe that he succeedeth no man it is a iuggling feate which conuerteth accidents into the shape of substance and maketh essence of a qualitie A feate that is vsed much by D. Stapleton doth amaze the simple who sée not the sleight where they who discerne the conueiance of it estéeme it as a feat of sophistrie But the third feate is a feate of foly For when he had made foure kindes of teachers the first pastors the next hirelings the third theeues the last woolues and graunted that they all are called to that office by lawfull succession excepting theeues onely he diuideth hirelings into two sortes and hauing proued that both of them do teach the truth concludeth therupon that an vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith is knit to succession Then the which what kinde of legierdemaine can be more fond to say in the conclusion that they who by lawfull succession are teachers doo surely teach the truth because that hirelings doo and pastours when he had shewed before that not onely they doo succéed lawfully but also woolues who teach errours Hart. It was not his meaning that succession alone hath vndâ—uted certaintie of doctrine and faith but succession with vnitie For other-where he saith that to this prerogatiue of Bishops and Priestes there are required
it selfe must not be therfore thought vnlawfull nor was it vsurped because it was abused For Princes abuse their power oftentimes in oppressing their subiectes Yet you will not say that they vsurpe their Princely power Rainoldes Neither doo I say that the Pope vsurpeth his Bishoply power but the supremacie The vsurping whereof you go about to hide with the mist of abusing while you distinguish not betwéene a lawfull power vsed vnlawfully and an vnlawfull power King Edward the fourth did put to death Burdet a marchant of London for saying merily to his sonne that he would make him inheritour of the crowne misconstruing his wordes as though he had meant the crowne of the realme where he meant his house at the signe of the crowne Herein the king abused his power and not vsurped it because God had giuen him the sworde to execute iustice and iudgement on his subiect though he vsed it vnlawfully against an innocent But if he had executed a subiect of the Spanish kinges or had excommunicated his owne yea deseruing it this were an vsurped not an abused power because he did not beare the sworde ouer Spaine and the Church-censures belong to the Bishops charge not to the Princes In like sorte the Pope of Rome might remoue the Roman Emperour from the communion as Ambrose Bishop of Milan remoued Theodosius being of his charge in the Church of Milan Which if the Pope did vnlawfully and not as Ambrose he abused his power But if he presumed to excommunicate other kings or to depose the Roman Emperour the power that he practised therein was vnlawfull and he vsurped it Which example of his dealing with the ciuill state obserueth the tenour of the same disorder in the ecclesiasticall For if he laide handes rashly vpon a man whom he had right to ordeine his power was lawfull though abused But if he tooke vpon him the right of making Pastors or of giuing benefices and Bishoprickes through all the world hee did vsurpe vnlawfull power Wherefore sith the tyranny wherewith I charged him in spirituall things was of the supremacie ouer all Christendome not of Bishoply power ouer his owne diocese the power of spiritual rule which he practised ouer both the states ecclesiasticall and ciuill is not abused but vsurped Neither can you salue it with laying the blame on some of the predecessours as if the successours now were guiltlesse of it For though they doo not all commit the same excesse in the execution of their vsurped power yet they all maintaine the libertie of dooing it and doo it when they list As since Quéene Maries dayes one of your best Popes Pius the fifth hath shewed who hath excommunicated yea deposed also our gratious Quéene Elisabeth and reserued benefices dignities and Bishoprickes to his owne bestowing from them who should elect their pastours by right Of the which thinges sith he tooke vnlawful power in the one to depose Princes as your selfe haue told me that you are of opinion in the other the autour the good autour whom you praysed confirmeth that the Popes bestowing the Church-liuings so doo that they ought not your owne conscience M. Hart and your autours iudgement should moue you to confesse their supremacie in spirituall thinges to be vsurped no lesse then I haue shewed it to be in temporall But if perhaps you will not graunt so much yet suspending your sentence till the chapters folowing whereto you referre vs the third and last point that they erred in office is proued notwithstanding euen by that you graunt And therefore you say that onely this is it which you goe about to defend in them that because of Christes promise of building his church vpon that rocke and prayer also that their faith should not faile they neuer erred in iudgement or definitiue sentence Wherein being driuen by force of euident truth from your maine distinction that the Pope may erre in person not in office as a priuat man not as Pope you retire from all the wards of your castle into the celler as it were and say that in a corner of his office he neuer erred but otherwise in office and euery part thereof he hath Hart. Nay this was my meaning by that distinction at the first As you may perceiue by that I spake expresly of definitiue sentence and saide that he cannot erre iudicially Rainoldes Then your meaning was to put the coate of Hercules vpon a dwarfes bodie For the Popes office is a great deale larger then iudgement or definitiue sentence And when you saide withall that the Euangelistes and other penners of holy write for the execution of that function had the assistance of God and so farre could not erre possibly you séemed to insinuate that the Popes haue likewise the assistance of God for the execution of their function and can no more erre in discharging of it then could the Euangelists in writing of the Gospell But sith you sée now that in function and office they may be as false as the Gospell is true which in euery parte thereof I haue proued you shall sée as much in this remnant also of iudgement definitiue sentence vnlesse you shut your eies against the light of manifest proofe For what doo you meane by saying that the promise and prayer of Christ kéepeth them from erring in iudgement or definitiue sentence Doo you not meane that they cannot teach against the truth in a matter of faith because the Church of Christ shal be built vpon them their faith shall not faile that they may strengthen their brethren Hart. I meane as I declared that they cannot nor shal not euer iudicially conclude or giue definitiue sentence for falshood or heresie against the Catholike faith in their Consistories Courtes Councels decrées deliberations or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies doutes or questions of faith as shall bee proposed vnto them because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren Rainoldes The issue of our conference shall trye that they haue erred thus in euery point of the Catholike faith wherein they teach against vs as euen in this first of their owne supremacie But I will shew presently that they haue doone it in such things as your selues confesse to be doctrines of falshood or heresie And that will I shew by the same autours or as good as them of whom you vouch so boldly that you are sure they doo maintaine this of the Popes not erring in iudgement or definitiue sentence no lesse then you do â—or Sigebert Martinus Polonus and Sigonius doo witneâ—â—â— that Pope Stephen the sixth decreed in a councel that they who were ordeined Bishops by Pope Formosus were not ordeined lawfully because the man was wicked by whom they were ordeined Hart. Pope Stephen did depriue them of their orders as Sigebert termeth it did vnordeine them who were ordeined by Formosus He
erred in a matter of fact not of faith Rainoldes He erred in a matter of fact and faith both For he did not onely depriue and vnordeine them who were ordeined by Formosus but he decreed too as Sigebert withall noteth that all the ordeinings of Formosus ought to bee voide Wherein he did folow the errour of the Donatists who as if the sacrament had his force from men that are the ministers of it not from God the autour thought them not well baptized who were baptized by euill ministers and so baptized them againe Yea that very fact of Stephens is reproued therefore by Luitprandus a graue and learned writer that liued about the same time though mistaking his name yet iudging of the thing rightly For after the rehersall thereof that depriuing all them of their degree who were ordeined by Formosus he did ordeine them againe which thing saith Luitprandus how wickedly he did you may perceue by this that euen they who receyued grace or Apostolike blessing of Iudas the betrayer of Christ before he betrayed him were not depriued of it after he had betrayed him and hanged himselfe For the blessing which is bestowed on the seruants of Christ is not powred on them by that Priest which is seene but by that Priest which is not seene For neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth but God that giueth the encrease So manifestly caried the fact of Pope Stephen a sauour of Donatisme that is of a notorious errour in faith though he had not approued it by his decrée Much more sith he decréed the thing as true and lawfull Hart. To say that holy orders giuen by a Bishop be he neuer so wicked are voide and of no force it is an errour in faith I graunt But this of Luitprandus is denyed by Sigebert that he ordeined them againe whom he depriued Rainoldes whether he ordeined them againe or no it maketh not the matter Though by the Councell in which Iohn the ninth condemned Stephen and his Councell it séemeth rather he did at the least some of them For there new ordeininges are namely forbidden and matched with new baptizinges Which if Stephen had not offended therein as the Donatists did why should it be so touched But whether he ordeined them againe or no hee decréed that which your selues acknowledge to be an errour in faith he decréed it in a Councell Hart. But the Councell did not approue that decrée by frée voyce iudgement The Pope did extort their consent through feare as it appeereth by the Councell that condemned him Rainoldes This is not to proue that the Popes decréees in Councells are good but to disproue rather the certaintie which you gaue them in Consistories Courtes and Councels For not onely Bishops assembled in the Councell but also Lawiers in the Court yea Cardinals themselues in the Consistorie of the Pope may agree for feare to that which they like not as Leo the tenth made them to doo And if the soundnes of the Popes decrees may be distained by this affection it may by other causes and impediments also For what if the Cardinals mislyking of the Pope for reprouing their fautes leaue him as they did Vrban the sixth and make a new Pope What if they bee vnfaithfull that he dare not trust their counsell and aduise as Adrian the sixth durst not What if they giue him lewde and wicked counsell that it deceiue him if he trust it Such as was the counsel of Cardinall Pucio who exhorted Popes to make any gaine and said that they might doo it lawfully Chabrias a skillfull man of warre said that an armie of hartes is more to be feared hauing a lyon to their captaine then an armie of lyons hauing a hart You bear vs in hand that the Pope is a lyon and other men are hartes But you make him the hart me thinkes them lyons when you say that himselfe may erre and faile in faith but he can not doo it in Consistories Courtes Councels As if Christ had prayed for his brethren to strengthen him and not for him to strengthen his brethren Hart. Nay I made not mention of his brethren so as if the assurance of truth in his decrees did depend of them For though it behooue him to vse their aduise and therefore I spake of Consistories Courtes and Councels yet whether he folow their aduise or no his decrées are true But as for Pope Stephen I can not thinke that he decréed that errour At least if he decreed it yet he set not foorth a decrée of it as to teach the Church Rainoldes But if he decréed it he erred in iudgement and definitiue sentence which is the point that you denyed Howbeit to driue you from this shelter also Pope Caelestine the third set foorth a decree that when of maryed persons one falleth into heresie the mariage is dissolued and the catholike partie is free to mary againe Flat against the scripture that whosoeuer dimisseth his wyfe but for whooredom and marieth an other doth commit adulterie and whosoeuer marieth her that is dimissed doth commit adulterie Hart. This was Pope Caelestines opinion not decrée For Pope Innocentius the third who speaketh of it saith not that he defined but that he thought so Rainoldes Yet Pope InnoceÌ„tius saying that he thought so doth vse that worde in Latin which sentence cometh from thâ—â—â—e might note thereby the definitiue sentence of Caelestine not the opinion But whatsoeuer one Pope thought of another Alfonsus a famous patrone of the Papacie doth shew that he defined it For that Pope Caelestine did erre saith Alfonsus about the mariage of the faithfull of whom one falleth into heresie it is manifest to all men Neither was this errour of Caelestin such as ought to be imputed to negligence alone that we may say he erred as a priuate man and not as Pope who in defining of any serious matter should aske counsell of learned men For this definition of Caelestine was extant in the old decretals which I my selfe haue seene read And this of Alfonsus is confirmed farther by Cardinal Hostiensis who noteth the very paragraph of the chapter in the which it was speaketh of it as a decretal Wherefore though the chapter be maimed of the paragraph since Hostiensis time yet these recordes suffice to shew that it was a decree of Pope Caelestines set forth to teach the Church Hart. There are some of our Doctors as Canus declareth who thinke that the Pope may erre in iudgement of faith Alfonsus and Hostiensis might haue that fansie too But if the decrée whereof they speake were set forth perhaps to teach the Church yet not to teach the Church that point For in a point touched or handled by the way Popes may erre
so then For though the Arian heresie did set vpon Liberius fiersly and ouerthrew him when he being weeried with the tediousnes of his banishment did subscribe to it yet sith he recouered himselfe from his fall and manfully withstood it afterwarde it cannot be saide to haue preuailed against him Whether it preuailed or no against Felix of whom some report that he was an Arian some that he communicated only with the Arians it is no matter to S. Austin who reckeneth him not amongst the Roman Bishops Wherein though your Genebrard doo dissent from him because Felix dyed a martyr as he saith citeth Sozomen to proue it but he belyeth Sozomen to infer on that lye that Peters chaire hath such a vertue that it could rather beare a martyr then an heretike or a Pope that fauoured heretikes yet others not séeing belike such a mystery in the death of Felix are of S. Austins minde euen your Onuphâ—ius also who neither doth acknowledge his Popedome nor his martyrdome Now the heresie of the Donatistes had lesse preuailed against them For as they had before withstood the Nouatians the coosin germans to the Donatists so did they withstand the Donatists them selues both by their communion with the Catholikes and by their doctrine And this is the point on the which S. Austin did cast his eye chiefly when he commended their succession As it appeereth farther by a reply that hee made to a Donatists epistle where hauing reckened vp all the Roman Bishops from Linus who succéeded Peter to Anastasius liuing then he concludeth with these wordes in the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist Wherewithall ifwe consider how they maintained the truth against the heresies of Carpocrates Valentinus Marcion Sabellius Macedonius Photinus Apollinaris and the rest of those miscreants who vndermined the foundation of the Christian faith the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the reason will be manifest why to moue the Donatists by the succession of the Bishops of Rome and their autoritie S. Austin gaue it this prayse that the gates of hell did not preuaile against it Hart. Well The succession then of the Roman Bishops is vsed by S. Austin for a certaine marke of the Catholike religion of the true Church and of the right faith Neither onely by S. Austin but by the rest of the Fathers too For Epiphanius alleageth it against the Carpocratians let no man maruaile saith he that we rehearse al thinges so exactly for that which is manifest in faith is thereby shewed And Tertullian hauing said of them selues in Afrike that they haue autority from the Church of Rome doth teach that the succession of that Church and See is to be set against all heretikes And Irenaeus reckening vp all the Roman Bishops in order from Peter to Eleutherius of his time doth adde that it is a most ample declaration of the Apostolike faith to be of his side against the Valentinians And Optatus reckneth farther from Peter to Siricius of his time against the Donatists As likewise S. Austin farther yet from Peter to Anastasius of his time that he saith much more surely and to the soules health in deed Wherefore the Church of Rome and we who are of that Church haue an assured warrant that the faith which we professe is the true faith For we haue the succession of the Roman Bishops from Peter to Gregory the thirtenth of our time which is an inuincible fort against all heretikes as the Fathers Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus Optatus and Austin testifie Rainoldes You will neuer leaue to daly with the Church of Rome as Tullie did with Maistresse Fabia The succession of the Roman Bishops is a proofe of the true faith for so it was in the time of Austin Epiphanius Optatus Tertullian Irenaeus twelue hundred yeares ago vpwarde Succession was a proofe of the true faith till Bishops who varied from the truth succéeded euen as sheepes clothing was a marke of true Prophets till false Prophets came in it But neither are true Prophets knowne now by shéepes clothing nor the true faith by succession The succession of Bishops was a proofe of true faith not in the Church of Rome alone but in all while they who succéeded the Apostles in place succéeded them in doctrine too kept that which Paule deliuered to Timothee Timothee to others But when rauening woolues were gotten into the roomes of pastours and that was fulfilled which Paul foretold the Bishops of Ephesus of your own selues there shall arise men speaking peruerse thinges to draw disciples after them then succession ceased to be a proofe of true faith for that it was no longer peculiar to the truth but common to it with errour and so a marke of neither because a marke of both This difference of succession betwene the later age and the former the primitiue churches time and ours is manifest by the Fathers them selues whom you alleage For Irenaeus to beginne with the most auncient of them saith that the succession of Bishops in all Churches through the whole world doth keepe and teach that doctrine which the Apostles deliuered Now it doth not so nor hath these many ages since Irenaeus died Hath it Hart. Not in all Churches But in the Church of Rome it doth and hath and shall for euer Rainoldes But if you would say as much for al Churches you might proue it as wisely out of Irenaens as you doo for the Church of Rome Hart. I deny that For he doth not fetch the succession of true doctrine but from the Church of Rome against the Valentinians Rainoldes D. Stapleton told you so and you beleeued it I know not whether I should more pitie your credulitie or detest his impudencie who hath abused you with such lewde vntruthes and that against his owne knowledge vnlesse he knew not what he had writen himselfe For him selfe had cited the wordes of Irenaeus which auouch the contrarie to wéete we can recken them who were ordeined Bishops by the Apostles in the Churches their successours vntill our time who taught not any such thing and so foorth But for as much as it would be verie long to recken the successions of all Churches we declare the faith of the greatest the most auncient and famous Church of Rome Which faith hath continued vntill our time by the successions of Bishops And againe the true knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles and the auncient state of the Church in the whole world and the forme of Christes body according to the successions of Bishops vnto whom they did commit the Church which is in euery place which hath continued vntill our time being kept and so foorth By the which sentences it is plaine that Irenaeus although he recken not the successions of all Churches because it
the will of God Wherefore the succession of Constantinople though they fetch it from the Apostles yet proueth not the faith which they professe to be true because they haue departed from the Apostles doctrine in which they should succeede chiefely Rainoldes Now you say well In déede the succession in place is nothing woorth succession in doctrine is it which maketh all But what meane you then to send vs such bead-reales of your Bishops of Rome from Peter to Gregory as vndoubted arguments of the Catholike faith when we can send you as solemne a bead-roale of Constantinople from Andrew to Ieremie and proue nothing by it What trifling is this to say first that succession of Bishops in place proueth truth of doctrine and then to adde that it doth so if it haue succession in doctrine ioyned with it In effect as if you said that succession in place doth proue the doctrine to be true if the doctrine be true a couple of eares doo proue a creature to be a man if they be a mans eares The Fathers alleaged succession in place not with condition if it had but with a reason that it had succession in doctrine Proue me that you haue succession in doctrine and then alleage vnto me the Fathers for succession For if as S. Austin saide against the Donatists after he had reckened the Bishops of Rome from Peter to Anastasius In the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist so you reckning them from Peter to Gregorie might say in like sort In the rancke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that hath vsurped then were your reason as fit against vs for the supremacy of the Pope as S. Austins was for the Church against the Donatists Hart. I may say so in like sort For S. Austin meant as well of this point as of all others when he said of the succession of the Bishops of Rome that the gates of hell preuailed not against it Rainoldes If this gate of hell preuailed not against them in S. Austins time yet many thinges may happen betweene the cuppe and the lippe as the prouerbe is much more betwéene his time and ouâ—s But S. Austin meant not to speake of vsurping in that against the Donatists and if he had he learned by experience afterwarde that they could vsurpe and would if they were not curbed For thrée of them euen Zosimus Boniface and Caelestin did vsurpe ouer the Churches of Afrike while Austin was aliue yet who with the whole Councell of abooue two hundred Bishops of that countrie withstood their attempt as much as lay in him and stayed their pride Hart. Their pride You slander those holy Bishops in saying so Rainoldes Which holy Bishops of Afrike Them selues in their epistles to the Bishops of Rome doo note it with the same worde and if they slandered them it was with a matter of truth But of this hereafter more conueniently For the point in hand it is sufficient that S. Austin applying that text to the Church of Rome that the gates of hell preuailed not against it spake of soundnes of doctrine which the Donatists did faute in not of soueraintie of power wherof there was no question with them Hart. Gregorie the great speaketh of soueraintie of power and proueth by that same text the Church of Rome to be the head of all Churches because Christ committed specially this Church to S. Peter saying to thee wil I giue my Church Rainoldes By that same How Christ saith not to Peter to thee will I giue my Church He saith vpon this rocke will I builde my Church And therein if Gregories iudgement may rule you the rocke is Christ him selfe which Peter had his name of and on which he saide he would build his Church the Church is the holie Church that is to say the companie of Gods elect and chosen which shall neuer fall away from the Catholike faith in this world and in the world to come shall continue stedfast for euer with God For the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it There was some affection that troubled Gregories minde when he did chaunge that text and as it were appropriate it to his Sée of Rome and Stapletons heart was taken with some affection also when he cited Gregorie to proue his purpose thence For nether doth the title of the head of all Churches proue the Roman Papacie neither doth Gregory although he geue that title to the Church of Rome yet proue it by that same text The thing which he proueth is that the Emperour who receyued money for ecclesiasticall liuinges and spoyled the Church with sâ—monie ought not so to doo chiefly in the Church of Rome For hauing touched his gréedinesse of this filthie gaine yea he hath saith Gregorie stretched out so farre the rashnesse of his furie that he chalengeth to him selfe the head of all Churches euen the Church of Rome and vsurpeth the right of earthly power ouer the ladie of nations Which he did altogether forbidde to be doon who specially committed this Church to S. Peter the Apostle saying To thee will I giue my Church Wherein that which Gregorie would say is plaine enough by the wordes that go before it The maner of his saying and prouing it is hard For he saith of the Roman Church that the Emperour vsurpeth the right of earthly power ouer it Whereby a man would thinke hee meant to denye the ciuill rule and gouernment of Rome to the Emperour as now the Popes doo Then which he meant nothing lesse for he acknowledged himselfe the Emperours subiect vsed him accordingly But he meant by the right of earthly power vsurped ouer the Church the right of dealing with Church-liuings after the maner of the world in setting them to sale as men doo farmes and leases which is prophane and detestable Now Gregorie being grieued that the Emperour asked money euen of the Bishop of Rome himselfe whose election he confirmed with his royall assent he thought good to amplifie the heinousnesse of the fact as most vnlawfull and wicked in the Church of Rome And thereupon he saith that Christ did forbid it who specially committed this Church to S. Peter saying To thee will I giue my Church In the gospell we reade of Peter that he knew not what he said when he saide to Christ whom he beheld in glory Maister it is good for vs to be here and let vs make three tabernacles Gregorie had a louing affection to Rome Will you giue me leaue to thinke of him as of Peter that he knew not what he said For the wordes which he alleageth are not the wordes of Christ as you must néedes graunt The thing he gathereth of them is against the words of Christ who generally committed all Churches to Peter for he was an Apostle and if any specially it was that of the
Iewes whereas the Roman Church was a church of the Gentiles Wherefore neither Gregorie did purpose to proue the supremacie of the Pope by Christes wordes to Peter neither did Christ meane the Church of Rome specially but generally the Catholike Church euen all the chosen when he said of his Church that the gates of hell should not preuaile against it And if as one appealed from king Philip to king Philip from Philip halfe asléepe to Philip wel awaked so I may appeale from Gregorie to Gregorie from Gregorie somewhat troubled to Gregorie aduised better himselfe will by and by giue iudgement of my side For in the same treatise he doth a litle after alleage the place rightly and expound it soundly of them alone and all them who are built on Christ firmely and faithfully and nothing shall remoue them from him Which to be the natural sense of Christes wordes it is apparant to the eye For the gates of hell preuaile against them who are adiudged to death eternal But hypocrites and euill seruants are adiudged to it The gates of hell therefore preuaile against such Now such haue béene and may be the members yea the heads of the Church of Rome Then our Sauiour meant not that priuilege to them Onely against the chosen and elect of God the gates of hell preuaile not For whom he hath predestinate them hath he also glorified Wherefore it is the Church of Gods elect and chosen to whom our Sauiour meant it And them he doth call in this place my Church as in an other afterward to like effect my sheepe So what he meant there by saying of his sheepe to them I giue eternal life and they shal neuer perish the same he meant here by saying of his Church against it the gates of hel shall not preuaile Which thing is so cléere out of all controuersie that to passe ouer Theophylact and Origen of whom the one writeth that euery man established in the faith of Christ is meant by the Church the gates of hell shal not preuaile against him the other that these gates preuaile against all who are not of the Church and he is neither the Church nor any part therof whom they preuaile against Lira the meanest of a great many doth thus expound the place that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church by subuerting it from the true faith Whereby saith he it is plaine that the Church consisteth not of men in respect of honour or power ecclesiasticall or ciuill for many Princes and Popes haue beene found to haue reuolted from the faith but the Church consisteth of them in whom there is true knowlege and profession of the faith and truth Hart. Howsoeuer Gregorie did either mistake the words of the scripture or not apply them perhaps to the supremacie yet is the supremacie proued by that title which he giueth the Church of Rome For if the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops Rainoldes What force this reason hath we shall see anone But first I must conclude that it is not proued by the holy scriptures neither by these which you haue alleaged out of the Fathers nor by any other that you can alleage And this hath heretofore bene the opinion of learned men amongst your selues as i◠appéereth by your Canus Who hauing examined the point with greater iudgement then Stapletons are wont doth graunt that it is not writen in the scriptures that the Pope succeedeth Peter in the supremacie But that which in Canus might perhaps haue séemed one Doctors priuate fansy doth séeme to bée now resolued on by more and is taught publikely For your Roman reader the Iesuit Father Robert in his lectures of the Pope which for their excellencie are set downe in writing and sent abroad as great iewels doth not onely teach the same but also proue it And whereas Canus thought that to conuey Peters right vnto the Pope the stories haue sufficient ground which say that Peter set his chaire at Rome and there died or if learned men shall not allow of that an other ground may be that the Church receiued it though not by scripture yet by tradition Father Robert putting the matter out of controuersie defineth that in déede it is a tradition not of Christ but of the Apostles and least we should doubt of which of the Apostles he nameth the man Peter euen a tradition of Peter Let me intreate you M. Hart if all that I haue said cannot preuaile with you yet to regard the doctrine the doctrine taught at Rome of your owne of the chiefest of your owne Doctors Renounce the vnlearned folies of your Stapleton brainsicke furies of your Rhemists who with desperate violence doo wrest the word of Christ to make it serue the pride of Antichrist Acknowlege that you haue not one text through all the scripture to proue the Popes supremacie that when you tell men of Thou art Peter and on this rocke I haue prayed for the Peter and Peter feede my sheepe you do presume of their simplicitie that in truth these places doo not import it but policie would haue somewhat saide eis not so many would beleeue it finally that the Papacie is a deuise of Popes and Papists for which sith the scriptures can be abused no longer because men haue espied the fraude therefore a new cloake is found for it now and hereafter it shall be counted a tradition of Peter The eighth chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may be iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 neither the auncient Bishops of Rome themselues 6 nor any other Fathers do proue the Popes supremacie HART You labour in vaine if you go about to perswade me that the Popes supremacie can not be proued by scripture And what iniurious dealing is this to bring our owne men Canus and Father Robert for the proofe thereof as though the greatest fauourers of vs were against vs. Rainoldes The scholer is not aboue his maister nor the seruant aboue his Lord. If Christ my Lord and maister were glad to labor in vaine why should I disdaine it Chiefly sith I may comfort my selfe as he did I haue laboured in vaine I haue spent my strength in vaine and for nothing but yet my duety is with the Lord and my worke with my God But what iniurious dealing is it if I indeuouring
Sophronius Agatho Damascene Euthymius and others doo name him Dionysius Areopagita when they cite thinges that are in him Rainoldes Gregorie Nazianzen doth prayse a certain autour whom he nameth not It is but one mans ghesse that he meaneth Denys An other saith which is more likely that he meaneth Athanasius Origen is auncient if he had cited Denys Denys must be elder a hundred yeares or two then I doo iudge him by his countenance But that worke of Origen in which you finde him cited can not bee Origens For in it the Manichees are mentioned and Arians the names of which heretiks did rise a good while after Origen was dead So that when this Origen is brought to cléere that Denys a théefe is brought to cléere a théefe The rest whom you alleage Sophronius Agatho Damascene and Euthymius are of later yeares and such as might easily thinke him to be Denys who called him selfe so Many honest men did thinke Perkin Warbeck to be Richard Duke of Yorke King Edward the fourthes sonne as he professed him selfe to bee though in déed he was a counterfeite Hart If you may reiect an autour as counterfeit against so great consent of writers any ancient Father may be refused for a rascall Rainoldes If you may allow a counterfeit as lawfull because that many thinke well of him euerie Perkin Warbeck may be receyued for Duke of Yorke Hart. Nay there was sure proofe that he could not bee the Duke For the Duke was killed with the Prince his brother in the Tower ofLondon by Richard the vsurper ten yeares before men heard of Perkin Rainoldes There is surer proofe that he whose cause you pleade cannot be Dionysius Areopagita Hart. What Such as Erasmus and Valla bring that Ierom and others do not mention him Rainoldes That as light as you make it did moue Cardinall Caietan to dout of the man But the proofe that I meant is such as yours against Perkin to weete that Dionysius Areopagita was dead many yeares before the workes which beare his name could be writen For there is cited in them a saying of Ignatius out of an epistle which he wrote to the Romans as he was going to suffer martyrdome in the time of Traian the Emperour Now Dionysius died in the time of Domitian certaine yeares before And when Ignatius wrote it Onesimus was Bishop of Ephesus who succéeded Timothee Your counterfeit alleageth it to Timothee Bishop of Ephesus either after his decease or before it was writen Moreouer the Christians in Dionysius time made their assemblies to praier both in such places and with such simplicitie as the Apostles did and times of persecution suffered But when your counterfeit wrote they had solemne temples like the temple of the Iewes the Chancell seuered with such sanctification from the rest of the Church that it was not lawfull for moonks to enter thereinto much lesse for other lay-men Againe the moonkes also were risen when he wrote and they of credit in the Churches and many ceremonies to hallow them Which in the time of the Apostles when Dionysius liued were not heard of yet for any thing that can be proued by monuments of antiquitie Hart. What not moonkes Why Philo maketh mention of them as Eusebius sheweth And Philo did florish vnder Caius the Emperour euen in the prime of the Apostles Rainoldes That which Philo writeth he writeth not of Christian moonkes but Iewish Essees as him selfe sheweth Eusebius was deceiued And if you thinke that you haue mee at an aduantage in that I do denie Eusebius I shal haue you at the same vnlesse you will deny him of whom you make greater account euen Thomas of Aquine For he saith of the same time of which Philo wrote that there was not then any certaine sort of religious men But to leaue the proofes which touch other matters or stand on mens coniectures or you may haue some colour of exception against I will proue him a counterfeit by the same point for which you alleaged him and that by demonstration out of the holy scriptures and that by the confession of your Rhemists themselues You alleaged him as a witnesse of the assumption of the blessed virgin Him selfe saith that Timothee came with him togither and many of their holy brethren to behold her body The scriptures shew that Paule was not conuerted to Christ till after Christes ascension When he was conuerted he staied three yeares in Damascus and Arabia before he came to Ierusalem Thence he went into the coastes of Syria and Cilicia and the countries there about And foureteene yeares after he came againe to Ierusalem with Barnabas to the Councell From the Councell he went to Derbe and Lystrae where he receiued Timothee And hauing trauailed through Phrygia Galatia Mysia Macedonia he came at last to Athens where he conuerted Denys the Areopagite So that it was seuenteene or eighteene yeares at least after Christs ascension before S. Denys knew Christ. New the blessed virgin died the fifteenth yeare after Christes ascension as your Rhemists put who yet take the largest time ofher life for other stories make it shorter S. Denys therefore could not be one of the brethren who came togither to be present at her death and funerall And all this is graunted and proued by your Rhemists though they thought not ofit For in their table of S. Paule they shew that it was the one and fiftieth yeare of Christ when he conuerted S. Denys the Areopagite and in their tale of the virgin they recken her to be assumpted the eight fourtieth yeare of Christ. Wherefore you do vs great iniurie to say that we deny S. Denys to haue writen those workes because he giueth testimonie for the Catholike faith in most things now cōtrouersed For that which we deny is in respect of the truth because indéede he wrote them not But in respect of his testimonie for the Catholike faith I wish that I might graunt with a safe conscience that hee wrote them He is so plaine against the most of your heresies chiefly the Popes supremacie Hart. Neither is that an heresie nor is he against it nay hée is plaine for it For he saith as your selfe rehearsed out of him that Peter is the chiefe and ancientst toppe of the Apostles Rainoldes But he saith farther that for as much as the scriptures say to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen therefore he and accordingly to him euery Bishop doth admit the godly and disinherite the godlesse by declaring the sentence and administring the word of God And this doth plucke vp the Popes supremacie by the rootes For your maisters ground it on that charge of binding
Grecians idols your pilgrimage to Saintes images where they are most famous as our Ladie of Lauretto like Diana of Ephesus with infinit such other fansies doo resemble liuely the Heathnish rites of Paganisme and grew by likelyhood from the Heathens But I because the temple of Salomon had images although not of men the Leuites had shauing although not of crownes the tabernacle had lightes although not in the day time much lesse at the beginning of Februarie more then other times did speake of your Popish rites herein as Iewish to make the best of them And for all the difference that you find betwixt them of waxe in yours and oyle in theirs and their perfume and your frankincense though frankincense was mingled with their perfume also and made an incense too without it but granting this difference betwixt them to the vttermost yet are yours Iewish in the kinde thereof because they are shadowes such as were the Iewish And it is likely that they who deuised them did fetch them out of Moses as they who defend them doo ground them vpon Moses For the fairest colour that eyther Bishop Durand or others set vpon them is that God ordeined them in Moses law As Pope Innocentius saith that the Catholike Church doth holde that Bishops ought to be anointed because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint Aaron and his sonnes and againe that temples and altars and chalices ought to be anointed because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint the tabernacle and arke and table with the vessels Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth that the sacrament of vnction or anointing doth figure and worke an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Iudaizing that is with doing as the Iewes did in that it celebrateth the sacrament of vnction Rainoldes Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference betwene the Iewes and you that your holy vnction is made of oyle and balme where theirs was made of oyle myrrhe with other spices He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuffe of it would not cléere your Church from Iudaizing in the kinde of the purgation that is the rite whereby you sanctifie Priests and altars No more then if you should sacrifice a dogge and say that you doo not therein as the Iewes did because they did sacrifice not dogges but shéepe oxen As for the difference by which the Pope seuereth your vnctiō from theirs that yours doth worke and figure an other thing then theirs did first it wrought as much in their altars as in yours for any thing that I know Secondly it figured in their Priests the giftes of the holy ghost which he saith it doth in yours Thirdly were it so that it had an other either worke or meaning with you then with them as after a sort it hath both in respect of him who ordered theirs and the cause why yet might the ceremonie be Iewish notwithstanding For I trust you will not maintaine but it were Iudaisme for your Church to sacrifice a lambe in burnt offering though you did it to signifie not Christ that was to come as the Iewes did but that Christ is come and hath by his passion both entred in himselfe and brought in others to his glorie At the least S. Peter did constraine the Gentiles to Iudaize as you terme it when they were induced by his example and autoritie to allow the Iewish rite in choise of meates Yet neither he nor they allowed it in that meaning which it was giuen to the Iewes in For it was giuen them to betoken that holines and traine them vp vnto it which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithfull And Peter knew that Christ had doon this in truth and taken away that figure yea the whole yoke of the law of Moses which point he taught the Gentiles also Wherefore although your Church doo kéepe the Iewish rites with an other meaning then God ordeined them for the Iewes as Pope Innocentius saith to salue that blister yet this of Peter sheweth that the thing is Iewish and you doo Iudaize who kéepe them Hart. S. Peter did not erre in faith but in behauiour when he withdrew him selfe from eating with the Gentiles For that was a defaute in conuersation not in doctrine as Tertullian saith Neither doth S. Austin thinke otherwise of it Rainoldes I graunt For he offended not in the truth of the gospel but in walking according to it that hauing liued before not as the Iewes but Gentile-like yet then hee left the Gentiles for feare of the Iewes and dissembled his iudgement touching that point of Christian doctrine But this doth so much more conuince both your Church of Iudaizing in her ceremonies and your doctrine of corrupting the gospell with that leauen For if S. Peter was to be condemned as causing them to Iudaize whom through infirmitie he drew by example to play the Iewes in one rite what may your Church be thought of which of setled iudgement doth moue and force Christians to play the Iewes in so many And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence and submission when S. Paul reproued him But Pope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it Wherefore the Pope or rather the Popes and Papists all who maintaine the doctrine of the Trent-Councell approuing both the rest of your Iewish rites and namely that of vnction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius they doo not offend as the true Apostle of Christ S. Peter did but as the false Apostles who troubled the Galatians and peruerted the gospell by mingling of the law with it Hart. Your wordes should haue some coolour of truth against the Church if we taught that men ought to be circumcised as did the false Apostles Rainoldes Why Shall no heretikes be counted false teachers in the Church of Christ vnlesse they teach in al point◠as did the false Prophets Hart. But as I haue shewed out of the Councell of Trent the ceremonies which we vse in the sacrifice of the Masse as namely mysticall blessinges lightes incense vestiments and many other such thinges came all not from the false but from the true Apostles And if there be any which they ordeined not that might be ordeined by our holy mother the Church As it was that some thinges should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice some thinges with a lowder For such is the nature of men that it can not bee lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine thinges without outward helpes Which reason added by the Councel doth warrant all our rites both of the Churches ordinance and the Apostolike tradition against your cauils and surmises
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
point proueth the Papacy And what his iudgement was thereof I haue declared Now for them first who asked the aduise and counsell of the Pope I will tell you a storie which I pray consider of Theodosius the Emperour desirous to procure the peace of the Church consulted with Nectarius the Patriarke of Constantinople what way might best be taken for ending controuersies of religion The Patriarke imparted the matter to Agelius a Nouatian Bishop The Bishop to Sisinius a reader in his church The reader gaue aduise and counsel to the Patriarke Which the Patriarke liked of and shewed it to the Emperour the Emperour embraced it and dealt according thereunto Hart. You would inferre hereof that the auncient Fathers might aske the Popes counsell and yet not acknowledge him to be their supreme head Rainoldes True as the Emperour might of the Patriarke the Patriarke of the Bishop the Bishop of the reader Hart. The case is not like For it was the personal wisdome vertue lerning or faith of these men which made them to be sought to But that which made the Fathers séeke to the Popes was the prerogatiue of their office Rainoldes Wherein they could not erre as you heard say at Rhemes But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personall faith and giftes in this sorte must be put in mind that by the same reason Sergius the Patriarke of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius in respect not of his personall wisedome vertue learning or faith but of his office too And so shall your selfe be forced to confesse that eyther the Pope may erre in consultations which he dealeth with by reason of his office as Pope Honorius did or the Fathers séeking to the Popes for counsell did séeke in respect of their personall giftes that they were learned and godly Pastours as many sought to Austin then to Caluin lately though neither of them were Pope Hart. Nay it is certaine that S. Ierom sought to Damasus for his office sake For he speaketh namely of the chaire of Peter that is the Sée Apostolike committed to Damasus Rainoldes But withall he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers that is the Christian faith which Damasus kept vncorrupted And therfore he sought to him as a godly lerned not as a Pastour only not for his office sake alone but for his person succéeding as in place so in doctrine to Peter Though in whatsoeuer respect and consideration Ierom sought to Damasus his séeking to be resolued in a point of faith doth not import soueraintie of power as I haue shewed Much les doth the counsell that Basill asked import it about asswaging of their troubles Least of all that Austin and the Bishop of Afrike who vnder shew of asking counsell of Innocentius in trueth gaue him counsell for feare least the Pelagians should haue seduced him to their errour Wherefore the auncient Fathers who sought aduise of Popes proue not the Popes supremacie No more doe they in déede who sought to further others or reléeue themselues by the Popes autoritie For autoritie power differ that such as are their brethrens superiours in the one may be their inferiours or equals in the other As wée agréed if you remember Hart. It may be so I graunt But they whom I named sought to Innocentius the first and other Popes as to supreme heads of all the Church in power not as to their superiours in autoritie only Rainoldes Their own wordes and déedes argue the contrarie For Chrysostome 14. being called into iudgement by his enemies namely by the Bishop of Alexandria others assembled in a Councell did appeale from them to a generall Councell and as himselfe speaketh thereof to iust iudgement Whereby hee declareth that the lawfull power of iudging his cause belonged to the Councell and not to the Pope Hart. But when he was depriued and cast out of his Bishoprike notwithstanding his appealing to the generall Councell he requested the Pope to write that those things being wrongfully done were of no force as in deed they were not and that they who did him such wrong might bee punished Rainoldes But in this request hée dealt with the Pope as with a member only of the generall Councell to which hée had appealed a member in power a principall member in autoritie For in praying him aboue the rest to write he shewed that he thought him to be of greater credit then other of his brethren But in appealing to them all ioyntly not to him alone hée shewed that the right of iudging the matter belonged not to him but to them in common Which is playner yet by that he saith farther of Bishops in seuerall that they are forbidden by lawes of the Fathers to take on thē the iudging of such as are without the limites of their diocese Wherefore the preeminence which Chrysostome gaue the Pope was of autoritie not of power The same I say of Basil or rather himselfe saith it desiring that the Pope would vse his own autoritie in sending men to succour them Hart. You doe vs great iniurie by this newe distinction of autoritie and power For Basil meant power when he named autoritie Rainoldes You will not say so if you weigh the grounde and circumstances of his spéech For the Easterne Churches being pestered with the Arian heresie by meanes of the Emperour Valens an Arian who persecuted the Catholikes the Churches of the West vnder Valentinian a Catholike Emperour did flourish with sinceritie of faith and faithfull Bishops Whereupon S. Basil conferring with Athanasius both Bishops of the East about their Churches state saith that the consent of the Westerne Bishops is the onely way meanes to helpe it in his iudgement For if they would shewe that zeale for our Churches which they did for one or two being taken among them selues in errour it is likely saith he that they should do vs good by reasō that the rulers would regard and reuerence the credit of their multitude the people euery where would folow them without gainsaying Now this whereto he wished a multitude of Bishops first is the same that afterward he sought to the Pope for Whom he prayed to deale himselfe in the matter vse his own autoritie in choosing and sending fit men to that purpose because the Westerne Bishops could not doe it easily by a cōmon conference and decree of Councell So that he desired a Councels aide chiefly because their consent multitude had greater credit as in his epistle to the Westerne Bishops themselues he saith againe It was not power therefore but credit and reputation that S. Basil meant in suing to be succoured by the autoritie of the Pope Which you must néedes graunt vnlesse you wil say that he thought the Councell to bée aboue the Pope in power against your Trent-doctrine of the Popes supreme power ouer the whole Church As
hath ether mo Bishops or as many as al other nations haue For euery baggage-towne hath a Bishop there And these buggage-Bishops of whom there were more at the Councell of Trent then of all other nations did allow that doctrine Though neyther they perhaps allowed it in hart but were induced by Papall meanes to yéeld vnto it For the answere of Vargas touching the Popes supremacie made at Rome and published for instruction of the Councell assembled then at Trent doth shew that there was some sticking at the matter And your stories note that the Pope is fowly afraide of general Councels leaft they should hurt his State and commeth like a beare to the stake as they say when he is drawne to summon them What a doo was made before he could be brought to grant that the Councell of Trent should goe forward And while the Councell lasted he kept good rule at Rome but brake loose whē it was ended Besides it being ended twentie yeares ago there hath bene none since nether I beléeue is like to be in hast Where yet there should be one euery ten yeres by their own decrée All euident tokens that the Pope himselfe doth thinke that Bishops vnder him like not his supremacie and would cut it shorter if they might haue power and autoritie to do it Which if they would do though being sworne to maintaine it yea and to maintaine the reseruations the prouisions other excesses of it is it not manifest that they disallow it or detest it rather Hart. Our ancestours allowed it euer since the time that by S. Gregories meanes they were first conuerted to the fayth of Christ till King Harries dayes when heresie did roote it out Rainoldes Our ancestours had a reuerent opinion of the Pope long after S. Gregorie for S. Gregories sake and honoured him aboue all Bishops But when he began to reach out the pawes of his supremacie ouer thē in giuing Church-liuings and handling Church-causes and executing Church-censures they were so farre frō liking it that they made lawes against it two hundred yeres ago Euen in Queene Maries time when they restored that stoompe of his vsurped power which they had rooted out vnder King Henrie the eigth they prouided that hée should haue no more but that stoompe kept the former lawes in force against him still Wherefore though our auncestours gaue him great preeminence of honour some of power too yet the most they gaue him was but a Venice-Dukedome his Monarchie they neuer allowed to this day Which may bée sayd likewise of other Christian Churches that honoured him on like occcasiō as our neighbours of Fraunce Germanie For ech of them shewed their mislike and hatred of the Popes supremacie by supplications complaints offered to their Princes Yea Fraunce made lawes against it which might haue continued had not the Gentiles raged broken the bands a sunder And these of whose iudgements I haue spoken hitherto are such as your selues doe holde for Catholike Christians The rest Christians also though you cal them heretikes and schismatikes yet Christians the Churches of Greece and Asia in the East in the North of Moscouie in the South of Aethiopia in the West of Boheme Prouince Piemont heretofore the reformed Churches that are at this day in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie Flaunders Suitzerland and so foorth throughout Europe set lesse by the Pope then the former did That I might say iustly that except the crew of the Italian factiō wherein I comprehend the Iesuites and their complices men Italianate al Christian Churches haue condemned the Popes supremacie do till this day Wherefore if the matter were to be tried by the will of men so many thousandes of them Pastours and Doctours Synodes and Coūcels Uniuersities and Churches through all ages in all countries of al sorts and states might suffice to put the Pope from his supremacie At least they might make you to blush M. Hart who haue sayd in writing that all men did grant it him without resistance it was neuer denied him But sith it must be tried by the word of God and it is not writen in the booke of life I conclude that it is not a citizen of Ierusalem but a child of Babylon which they shall be blessed who dash against the stones And thus haue I shewed that the former point on which you refuse to communicate with vs in prayers and religion ought to bring you rather to vs then draw you from vs. It remaineth now that we sift the later of the faith professed in the Church of England Which if it be found to be the Catholike faith as in truth it will then is there no cause but you must néedes yéeld that we may go together into the house of the Lord. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiects in things spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it HART Nay first why doe you take the supremacie from the Pope and giue it to the Prince who is lesse capable of it Rainoldes The supremacie which we take from the Pope M. Hart we giue to no mortall creature Prince nor other But the Pope hauing seazed on part of Christs right part of Princes part of Bishops part of peoples Churches as the chough in Aesope did trick vp himselfe with the feathers of other birdes the feather which the Romish chough had of our Princes we haue taken from him and geuen it to her Maiestie to whom it belonged according to the lesson of our heauenly Master Geue to Caesar the thinges which are Caesars and to God the things which are Gods Hart. It is not Caesars right to be the supreme gouernour of all his dominions in things spirituall and temporall But this is the supremacie which you giue our soueraine Lady Quéene Elisabeth Therfore you giue the Prince more thē i◠the Princes Rainoldes To haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions is to be supreme gouernour of all his dominions in thinges spirituall and temporall But it is Caesars right to haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions Therefore that is the Princes which we giue the Prince Hart. The Prince hath preeminence ouer al rulers within his owne dominions in gouernment of matters touching man not God For nether he nor any of the rulers vnder him may deale in them both Rainoldes They may For the ciuil magistrate is ordeined to punish them that doe euill and praise them that doe well But the euill to be punished and the good to be praised compriseth all duties not only towardes man but towards
as our ancestours vnder the Pope as Ionathan Nor was it such turpitude for the nation of the Iewes to haue had religion reformed by two Kings though in a few yeares it caused sundrie alterations as for the nation of the Romans to haue kept idolatrie without alteration vnder high Priests for a thousand yeares together Hart. Well Whatsoeuer opinion you haue of the Princes supremacie your own Centurie-writers coÌ„trol it in generall Caluin in particular the grant thereof to King Harrie For they both reproue the title of head And it is al one to be head of the Church to be chiefe gouernour of causes ecclesiasticall Rainoldes Caluin reproueth not the title of head as the Protestants graunted it but that sense thereof which Popish Prelates gaue namely Steuen Gardiner who did vrge it so as if they had meant thereby that the king might do thinges in religion according to his owne will and not â—ée theÌ„ dâ—on according to Gods wil. In like sort is the headship of the Church controlled by the Centurie-writers For they say that Princes ought not to be heads to coine formes of religioÌ„ frame new points of faith as Ieroboam did his calues So what they mislike yâ— we grant not to Princes What we grant to Princes that they mislike not Nay the Centurie-writers do giue the same supremacie to our Prince that we do nor only to ours but to al in general Which Caluin also doth Nor only hée or they but the reformed Churches whole with one consent I might say euen your owne men too Yea euen your selfe too M. Hart. For when vpon occasion of spéech that I had with you touching this poynt before we did enter into conference by writing I brought you M. Nowels answere to Dorman wherin he hath confuted pithily and plainly the cauils which your Maister blancheth out of Caluin and the ancient Fathers against the Quéenes supremacie requesting you to reade it ouer you told me hauing read it that you had mistaken our doctrinâ— of that point and that if we gaue the Prince no greater soueraintie then M. Nowell doth you did agrée with vs. Hart. Indéed I had thought so do many take it that you meant to giue as much to the Prince by the title of the supremacie as we do to the Pope Where you giue no more me thinkes by M. Nowel theÌ„ S. Austin doth who saith that Kings do serue God in this as Kings if in their own realme they coÌ„mauÌ„nd good things forbid euil not only coÌ„cerniÌ„g the ciuil state of meÌ„ but the religion of God also And thus much I subscribe too Rainoldes Wil you procéede then to the later point wherein you would proue you sayd that the faith which we proâ—esse in England is not the Catholike faith Hart. I haue proued it alredy in part For the Catholike faith is the which we professe in the Church of Rome You professe not ye. As the points that you haue touched by the way of scriptures of traditioÌ„s of merits of sacrameÌ„ts of Priesthoode of the Masse the real preseÌ„ce the worship of Saints suÌ„dry others shew But I wil coÌ„fer no farder herof vnles I haue greter assuraÌ„ce of my life Rainoldes Assurance of your life to procéede in coÌ„fereÌ„ce by Gods grace you haue At least as great assurance as hetherto you haue had But you should rather say you wil conferre no farder vnlesse you had better assurance of your cause For that is the catholike faith which the Apostles did preach to al nations The Apostles preached that which is writen in the holy scriptures Therefore that which is writen is the catholike faith But the faith which we professe is all writen The faith which we professe then is the Catholike faith And this should appéerâ— as well in other pointes as in those alreadie touched if you would sift them The Lord grant you grace to consider of it that whatsoeuer become of your life temporall you may haue assurance of eternall life through knowledge of his holy truth SIX CONCLVSIONS touching THE HOLY SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH Proposed expounded and defended in publike disputations at Oxford by Iohn Rainoldes 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine 3 The authoritie of the holy scripture is greater then the authoritie of the Church 4 The holy Catholike Church which wee beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen 5 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike Church 6 The reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes and common-weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome Ierem. 51.9 We would haue healed Babylon but she is not healed forsake her ô children of God and let vs goe euerie one into his owne countrey TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL and reuerend in Christ the heads of Colleges and companie of students of the Vniuersitie of Oxford Iohn Rainoldes wisheth grace and peace from God the father and from our Lord Iesus Christ. WHen Anna the mother of Samuel had brought vp her child whom she had obtained of God with earnest prayers to put from her selfe the reproch of barennesse she consecrated him to God before Eli the Priest that he might liue and serue in the temple of the Lord. In like maner I desiring to consecrate to the temple of the Lord my Samuel as it were the first child of trauaile that God hath geuen to my barrennes haue thought good to present him to God before you fathers and brethren welbeloued in Christ who either are already or shall be put in trust with the charge of the temple to serue if it may any way the temple of the liuing God Perhaps a rash enterprise vndertaken somewhat more boldly then aduisedly chiefly séeing that it is so far inferior to the ripenes of Samuel And truely I haue hetherto béene stil of the minde that I had leiffer the things which I had brought foorth rather as vntimely fruites then perfit children should be kept within then come abroad into the light stay in the court of the temple then presse into the temple For I haue béen dealt with both oft and earnestly by my very frends that I would suffer to be printed and published as other sclender exercises made rather for the fence-schoole as you would say then for the field so chiefly my Orations which when I read the Gréeke lecture in our College I made to mine audience coÌ„cerning the studies of humanitie and philosophie Which yet I haue refrained to doo not of enuie for I haue addicted my selfe to wish well vnto the Church common wealth neither of vnkindnes as though I were not willing to gratifâ—e them whom I was greatly bound too but partly
through bashfulnes least any man should thinke me to hunt after glory which young men are too gréedie of partly through the knowledge of mine owne weaknes who neither in respect of wit nor age nor learning was ripe inough to bring foorth fruites which might be set before all men to be tasted off For though I desire to benefitte all whom I may hauing learned of Plato that I am not borne for my selfe alone but for my countrey neither can I benefitte my countrey more by any meanes then by teaching the waies how to attaine to good artes as Tully thought well yet I feared least I should offend in a common faute an itching lust to write which Horace did terme madnes in his daies what would he haue done if he had liued in ours in which there is such plenty both of passing wits and of works excellent that wise men may iustly thinke it vnmeete to publish any thing that is not wrought with cunning filed with iudgement poolished with labour fruitfull for commoditie and for vse necessary Howbeit after that I was discharged of that profession of artes of humanitie that I might the better applie the studie of diuinitie what before of bashfulnes and iudgement I had still refrained to doo in things of lesse importance least I should doo it more rawly then I thought méete the duetie which I owe to God and his Church hath mooued me now to do that in a weightie matter though not so ripely as I would Which thing vndertaken both by the aduise and the request of the godly I was occasioned to thinke off by one Richard Bristow an Englishman borne abiding at Doway professing the Romish faith who hath set foorth a poisoned worke against the faith and Church of Iesus Christ the faith which we professe the Church of which we be That worke entitled Motiues to the catholike faith when first he set it foorth he hath abridged since into a pamphlet of Demaundes to be proponed of catholikes to heretikes and printed it againe setting before vs the same vnsauory Coleworts twise sodden by himselfe a thousand times by Popish cookes to the great anoyance of guestes if they féede on it great loathing if they féede not What a gréeuous iniury therein be hath doon to the Church of England nor only to the whole bodie thereof but to the seuerall partes also by raysing vp vntrue and wicked surmises by casting out reprochfull spéeches by laying heresies to our charge it shal be declared as I heare shortly in the meane season let the godly iudge whiles to beginne with our most gratious Queene the daughter of godlinesse the defender of the faith the mainteiner of peace the nurse of the Church the preseruer of the weale publik◠the mother of our countrey he doth not onely note her by the name of Pharao but also putteth secretely into mens heads that she is not a lawfull but a pretensed Queene as the Papistes terms her of her Maiesties faithfull and obedient subiectes he saith that they obey her for common humanitie not of duetie to traitors who suffred for taking armes against her he geueth the title of holy and most glorious Martyrs he sclaunderously reporteth that the wiser sort and principall of the Realme haue prooued by experience of our dooings that our religion is no religion at all that our Bishops and Ministers are most ill and wicked and very fewe who preach and they scarce euer preach vpon the mysteries of faith that our people the neerer they come to the preachers doctrine the more they fall away from order and godlines assuring yet themselues to be saued by faith only be they neuer so wicked that in our Vniuersities either nothing is studied or the arte of speaking only not Diuinitie or if Diuinitie not all but a fewe points of it that our countrey is full not of men but of monsters of Atheistes of Achrists of them who beléeue not that a mans soule dooth liue more then a beasts when it is gone out of the body finally not to rake out of those caues of brimstone the rest of the coales of iuniper which he dooth throw both generally vpon whole estates and vpon many learned and godly men particularly that our Church the very body of our Church dooth not foster an heresie or two but hath reuiued many old heresies besides at least a thousand more of their owne inuention that it committeth not a sinne or two but holdeth a common schoole of sinne wherein the scholers be most lewde and the masters lewder that it thinketh verely there is no saluation at all no religion a thing which I tremble to mention but this cockatrice with venemous mouth hath said hath said nay he hath written it and he hath writen it with a penne of iron he hath writen it to last as a monument of his sclaunder that we thinke verily there is no saluation at all none at all and that our religion indeede is no religion Now these false and sclaunderous spéeches against our Church wherewith he hath besette his worke in sundry places as with precious stones are vnderlaide with reasons against our Churches faith begotten of the same father and sisters germaine to the sclaunders loose and dull in truth yet in apparance sharpe and sound which although the skilfull might crush in péeces without harme yet might they doo harme by stinging the vnskilfull euen as a scorpion if he sting a man dooth hurt him with his sting but if you bruse him straight and with his body brused anoint the part stoong he dooth you no hurt Wherefore to the intent that this scorpion of Bristow pricking with two stings as the worst kind of scorpions is wont the one of sclaunders the other of cauilles might doo no hurt to our men whom in the vniuersities or other parts of the realme he is thought to haue stoong many godly men haue wished him to be brused that if not all the parts yet at least so many as the grace of God which only healeth would recure might therewith be anointed And this doo they séeme to haue wished so much the more because some men hauing litle skill in physiche doo thinke that this scorpions stingings are uncurable For both Bristow himselfe as Thraso 〈◊〉 Terence praising his owne spéeches And now they were all afraide of me doth proudly aske whether any of our great Masters will answere his Demaundes as though we had neither shield in the Church to quench the fierie dartes of Satan nor physician in Israel to heale such as are wounded and I know not what Gnatho which hath cast abroad of late infamous verses in our vniuersitie hath insolently boasted that the Captaines tremble amazed with Bristowes lightning as though he had astonied the Coronells of our army not the souldiers onely But let Bristow know that nether all doo feare him howsoeuer he hath touched
the youthes in his Pasquines nor poore men haue cause to stand in doute of him though he threaten being armed with a leauer and a dish-clout that a wil quel all who stand in his way crush theÌ„ in peeces And if the Parasites of the Pope think that to be lightning which he hath â—â—asht to burn England sure it is such lightning as was after the Poet the lightning of Salmoneus who shaking oft a torch did counterfeit the thundring soundes and lightning flames of heauen But such kindes of lightning although they daunt the wauering Gréekes and towne of Elis whose king is Salmoneus yet they daunt not the vnuincible Christians and citie of the liuing God whose king is the Lord. And let him who flasht it take héed if he bee wise least his foolish lightning as they say it happened to the lightner Salmoneus be reuenged with true lightning of almightie God to the vtter ruine of him selfe his towne and citizens For the Church which is lead by the holy Ghost into all truth hath béene alreadie taught by him out of the scriptures and shall be taught farther through the grace of God what difference there is betweene the lightning of Bristow and the light of Iesus Christ the lightning of Bristow the heate whereof doth hurt the bodies which it striketh the light of Iesus Christ the beames whereof delite the men to whom it shineth the lightning euill and pestilent which blindeth them who sée and killeth them who liue the light good and healthfull which giueth sight vnto the blinde and life vnto the dead Neither are wee without many godly men of excellent autoritie learning and iudgement euen amongst them whom this Tertullus nameth reprochefâ—lly great Maiâ—ters who could haue shewed this long ago â—â—wbeit they haue stayed hetherto from dooing it either because they thought his folies were refuted before they were writen for that after the maner of the Popish writers he bringeth no new matter but scowreth vp old rustie stuffe as one of them did note long since or because they purposed first to encounter with such as had writen before and more pithily entending to deale after with the rest in due time as an other signified of late that he meant or because the controuersies being sufficiently traueled in by many they thought that they might well cease from this labour though the Papistes ceased not from their impudencie as Ieremie hauing answered Hananiah once gaue him no answere wheÌ„ he repeated his error or because perhaps some had no leasure from their weightier charge of feeding the Church some listed not to striue with such a railing person some while they thinke that others haue taken it in hand do let it alone al either remember the counsell of the wise man that thou must not alwayes answere a foole least thou become like him or if it were requisite to answere him now least he seeme wise in his owne conceit they straine curtesie who should doo it For my part least the Philistines should vaunt any longer as if their were no man amongst the Israelites that durst fight with Goliath or the Israelites be gréeued with hearing the host of the liuing God to be so defyed of an vncircumcised Philistin I purposed through gods grace though perhaps Goliath would haue disdained me as a childe yet I purposed to set vpon him in the name of the Lord of hostes the God of the host of Israel But when I had prepared my selfe to the battaile and chosen smooth stones out of the brooke of Gods worde which are mightie through God to cast downe holdes euery high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God I heard that the matter was dispatched alreadie by a stoute and faithful souldiour of Christ by whom many Philistines had before beene conquered Whose worke as I vnderstood since is at the presse too and shall be shortly published Wherefore laying now aside my former purpose I thought on that demaund and promise of Bristow touching the scripture and the Church wherein he doth challenge and offer vs the combat For whereas a countrie man of ours vnder the title of an vnlearned Christian concealing his own name had set foorth a booke touching the autoritie of Gods word 〈◊〉 Church Bristow willeth him to set out his booke and put his name to it with approbation of our Rabbines and with priuilege and promiseth that he shal quickly see it answered This booke haue I sought for but could not fall vpon it all the copies of it as I ghesse being sold. Neither knew I how to speake with the autor who had coÌ„cealed his name I dout not but for good cause But to satisfie if not wholy yet as farre as I might the chaleÌ„ge of Bristow I haue set out this litle treatise of the same point with the autours name thereto approbation not of Rabbines whom we leaue to that Synagogue whose rulers loue to be called Rabbi Rabbi Maisters Doctours but of graue and learned men whom it concerneth Which thing I hope will like him so much the better because it compriseth not onely that question touching the scripture and the Church that he desireth to be set out but certaine other also of the same kinde chiefly touching the Church whereof he hath onely the bare name to boast of And I looke for an answere so much the sooner because there are now fower yeares past since he promised a Latin booke to which whether it be come abroad already or to come shortly he may ioine if it please him an answere to these Conclusions Wherein if he thinke it méete for him to deale there are thrée things both easy to be doon and reasonable in my iudgement which I will request him One is that he will set downe the text of my Conclusions wholy with his answere as I had determined to doo with his Demaundes that the readers may sée what he confuteth and how An other that he will not kicke against the prickes that he will yéelde to the truth and not go about to darken the cléere light of the sunne of righteousnes with cauils and sclanders The thirde that if he be ashamed to say the truth preuails against me yet in reprouing such things as he assayeth to reproue he will deale more soundly and sincerely then D. Stapleton hath doon in his Doctrinall Principles of faith a worke more full of wordes then truth For to confute our doctrine that the Church is the company of Gods elect and chosen which we teach of the Catholike Church and it is true he teacheth that euill men are mingled in the Church with good the reprobate with the elect which thing is also true in the militant Church But true thinges agrée with true thinges neâ—â—her doth one truth ouerthrow an other We hold that the Catholike Church which is commended to vs in the Creede is the whole company of
that we beleeue the scripture because of the Church if he come as néere to the meaning of Cusanus as he dooth to his wordes that he thinke the scriptures credit and autoritie dependeth of the Church and the Church imparteth autoritie canonicall as Pighius expresly saith vnto the scripture he hath a harder forhead then I thought he had Yet Andradius the expounder and patrone of the faith of Trent speaketh much more modestly and religiously to geue him his due praise of the autoritie of the scriptures Which first he acknowledgeth that they haue not from men but from God not from the Church but from the holy Ghost and then he concludeth thereof that it is detestable to teach that either profane bookes may be made canonicall by the Church Bishops or such as are certainly canonicall may be refused Of the which things to affirme the one he saith it is a point of notorious impudencie the other of madnesse and impietie not to be suffered O that Andradius had likewise detested the cuppe of the whoores abominations in other things Or sith he is dead I would to God that all Christians who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her and who dooth not mislike somewhat would mislike the rest of all her filthinesse too nor onely be Christians almost as Agrippa but like both almost and altogether to Paul as Paul did wish to him To the which end that I might help them forward as much as lay in me I haue doone the best I can to heale the dangerous humors of opinions which do so anoy the tast of séely soules that they thinke the heauenly bread to be poyson and abhorre the swéetest foode of life as woormwood These humours that I speake off are peruerse errours which seduce them from the truth in that article of our Créede I beleeue the holy catholike Church For some are perswaded that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people but to the Ministers onely and Bishops of the Church no not to the Ministers of euery Church neither but of the Church of Rome euen the Pope and Cardinals Whom to haue gotten by a certaine custome to be called the church and that the church had doon receiued and ordeined that which was do on receiued and ordeined by them Marsilius Patauinus did note in his age and it is too well knowen vnto men of yéeres Other some and they of the lernedder sort acknowledge that the Church doth signifie the company of faithfull men and beléeuers but they wil haue that company to bée a people assembled by their own Bishop and cleauing to the head that is to the Pope least the Papall State be any way impaired They comprehende therefore all such within that company as doo professe the faith both the good and badde holy and profane godly and hypocrites There are some also who thinke that by this point to beleeue the holy church the churches authoritie is commended to vs that we should trust credite and obey the church which the Councell of Trent it séemeth would insinuate though somewhat darkely and distrustfully But Bristow therein dooth beare the bell away For he the more easily to deceiue English men at least the simpler if not all worketh treacherie with the dooble signification of wordes expounding this article I beleeue the Church as if the meaning of it were I trust the Church betwéene the which things there is great difference and that very manifest in the Gréeke and Latin though in our mother tounge not so Yet this man was created Doctor at Dâ—way and some doo account him a man of much value O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole that created such a Doctour but more wretched Papistes if they geue credit to such a Doctour who whether he be sophister or sclaunderer more notable it is harde to say A learned man among the Heathens if I remember well said that physicians can not finde a medicine against the byting of a sclaunderer But because the things are possible with God which are impossible with men therefore vpon confidence of his gracious goodnes I haue assayed to make one against the biting of this sclaunderer and of the like in the fourth Conclusion wherein I haue declared setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome and goates mingled with shéepe that the holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole companie of Gods elect and chosen Moreouer least the painting of the Romish Church should make vnskilfull young men to be enamored of her when they should heare many commend her as Catholike Apostolike and sound in faith to take this visard also away from her face wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost I haue added the fifth Conclusion that the Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike church A matter cléere in truth but hard to be perswaded specially to louers for Cupide is blinde And as he saith in Theocritus The things that are not faire seeme faire to him that is in loue Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus we by experience haue found it true in Bristow For he being besotted with the loue of the whoore is not content to say that she alone is Catholike that errour were more tolerable at least it were an error common to him with many But he affirmeth farther that the Church might be was called Apostolike for this cause onely that we might be directed thereby as by a marke to the Church of Rome founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul the onely Church now left of all the Churches Apostolike Which flattering spéech of this louer the Pope of Rome himselfe the bridegroome of his Church though doating on his bride too yet refuseth acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolike by the Fathers in the Creede to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles because they deliuered once the Churches doctrine and spread it abroad through all the world As for them that geue the title of Catholike to the Church of Rome they must take aduisement how to cléere their boldnesse from attaint of sacriledge who decke an adulteresse with the spoiles of the spouse of Christ or to thinke the best of the Church of Rome who spoile the mother to decke the daughter and her not the best with great wrong and iniurie to the rest of the sisters For the name of Catholike dooth not appertaine to this or that Church but to the Church vniuersall continued through all nations ages and prouinces from Adam vnto vs and to our posteritie as the Councell of Trent and the expounders of the Councell such is the force of truth doo confesse plainly But the chiefest errour that is to be abated is theirs who are perswaded that the Church of Rome is of right
is it fully written by S. Iohn Let vs heare him selfe speake These things saith he are writen that ye may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the sonne of God and that in beleeuing yee may haue life through his name In which wordes the summe and end of the gospell is set downe by Iohn the summe that we may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the Christ that is the soueraine Priest Prophet and King the Sauiour of men the end that we beleeuing in Christ the sonne of God may through him haue life euen that which alone is called life rightly to wit eternall life Which things being so as the Euangelist him selfe teacheth it must néedes be granted that those things which are writen in the gospell are sufficient for vs both to the way of life and to life As much then as sufficeth to faith and saluation so much is writen in the gospell For if the things which are writen had not béene sufficient to faith and saluation there were mo thing◠which might haue bene writen so many as the world could not haue conteined But these were omitted by the spirit of God because the other were enough for his purpose For he giueth this reason why mo were not writen these things are writen that yee may beleeue and in beleeuing may haue life There is contained therefore in S. Iohns gospell so much as is sufficient to faith and saluation Then if S. Iohns gospell alone haue sufficient how plentifully hath Christ prouided for his Church as a most bountifull Lord for his houshold to which he hath giuen so many Apostles and Euangelists witnesses and expounders of the same doctrine Wherefore the scripture doth not onely teach the Church but also amply and plentifully teach it all things behoofull to saluation For although the substance of the Christian faith be single and the same wherewith as with meate the seruants of God are fedde to life eternall yet as the ages of the seruants differ and in ages different their cases differ too so was it méete there should be sundry sortes and waies to diuide that meate and as it were to season it for ech one his part as it might best agrée with him Whereof that we might haue a true liuely paterne set foorth by Christs owne spirit in the word of life for the féeding of the faithfull therefore hée gaue sundry woorkemen so to terme them and writers of his faith that although they deliuered all the same foode yet they did not dresse it all in one sort And so it cometh to passe that in those writers of the faith of Christ both the vnitie of doctrine in the diuersitie of deliuering yeldeth a swéete tast in the spirituall mouth of the godly minde and the manifold vse ministreth holesome nourishment to euery mans stomake the euident plainnesse in the groundes of faith maketh that euen they who are of deintiest mouthes can not refuse it for the toughnes and the hidden wisedome in the secretes of scripture both trieth the strongest and satisfieth them who are sharpest set and to say that in a word which no wordes can expresse enough the infinite treasures bring infinite fruits to the faithfull to procure them a blessednes that is exceeding great and infinite Wherefore it is a thing so cléere and so sure that those secretaries of the holy Ghost ioyned togither doo open to the Church in the holy scriptures all things behoofefull to saluation that he who knoweth it not may be iustly counted ignorant hée who acknowledgeth it not lewde hée who dissembleth it vnthankfull hée who denieth it more then wicked For what can there be in cléerenesse more euident or in peise more weightie or in strength more sound or in truth more certaine then that generall principle which S. Paul deliuereth not as Moses of the law not as Iohn of the gospell but of the whole scripture and holy writt to Timothee The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousnes that the man of God may bee furnished throughly furnished to euery good worke Thus if you demaund of what autoritie scripture is it came from God by inspiration if you regard what vse it hath it teacheth improueth correcteth instructeth if you would sée to what end it is that the man of God may be furnished Our dutie in Christ Iesus is faith woorking by loue Faith embraceth sound doctrine loue requireth a godly life Soundnes of doctrine is held if true things be taught and false refuted Godlines of life is kept if we fly from euill and folow good But the holy scripture teacheth the truth improueth errour correcteth iniquitie instructeth to righteousnes as it appéereth by the Apostles wordes Therefore it setteth foorth a mans whole dutie in Christ Iesus that is as I suppose so much as sufficeth to saluation For it is not onely profitable to these things as some doo mince the matter but sufficient too in so much that it is able to make a man wise to saluation through faith and to furnish him Yea to furnish what maner of man the man of God that is the Lordes interpreter the Minister of the worde the teacher of the Church the Pastour of the flocke euen Timothee himselfe much more the flock of the faithfull in whom so great furniture of wisdome is not necessary Howbeit the Apostle neither so contented with saying that the man of God may be furnished addeth to beat the absolute perfection of the scripture into our mindes and memories with as many reasons as he vseth wordes that the man of God may be furnished throughly furnished to euerie good worke Whereupon it foloweth that there is nothing at all that can be wished for either to soundnes and sinceritie of faith or to integritie and godlines of life that is to mans perfection and the way of saluation which the scripture geuen by inspiration of God doth not teach the faithfull seruantes of Christ. It is the iudgement therefore of the holy Ghost whose sentence I defend as I am bound by duetie that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation Here if some perhaps desire the testimonies of the Fathers though to what purpose sith ye haue heard the Father of Fathers notwithstanding if any would heare the scholers iudgement when he hath heard the masters he shall heare the iudgement not of this or that man of whom he might dout but of the whole Church and of all the Saints For they with one agréement and generall consent haue termed the bookes of scripture Canonicall of the word Canon which signifieth a rule because they containe a worthy rule and squire of religion faith and godlines according whereunto the building of the house of God must be fitted Which opinion touching the Canon of the scripture allowed by Andradius himselfe the chiefest patrone of the Popish faith hath béene
trust in him stirre vp our loue towardes him and pray vnto him hartily increase our faith forgeue our sinnes in a word that we may runne the whole race of our life with greater stedfastnes and constancie Then sith these things are thus it is to be concluded that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all trueth and holinesse euen to saluation but to this saluation they are so lead that they are not frée from all spot and wrincle either of maners or of doctrine Touching which point on the one side in respect of maners Sebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully holding this hereticall opinion amongst others that the regenerate are able to performe the law of God perfitly which thing it is blasphemous to affirme of any but of Christ onely On the other side in respect of doctrine Hosius the Cardinall hath ouershot him selfe as fowly saying that euerie one of the elect may erre as by S. Cyprians example he sheweth but that all the faithfull gathered together in one cannot erre which is a fansy of a man that would build castles in the ayre It is a matter therefore most sure and out of dout that the elect and chosen may erre as in maners so in doctrine too though in such sort that they shall not die but liue notwithstanding and be cured of their errors Marry that they who are not chosen but onely called may erre euen to death as well in doctrine as in maners in maners it appeereth by the example of Iudas who was brought through couetousnes to betray Christ in doctrine we may sée by those monstrous heretikes of whom S. Iohn saith they went out from vs but they were not of vs. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may erre the one to their triall the other to their destruction and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen that which I proposed is prooued sufficiently that the militant church may erre not onely in maners but in doctrine also If any man for proofe thereof require examples hée hath the churches of Galatia of Corinth of Pergamus of Thyatira of Sardis and of Laâ—dicea All the which to omit examples of our owne time the scripture witnesseth to haue erred some of them in maners some in doctrine some in both Yea the very church of Ephesus it selfe which Christ shewed to Iohn in the figure of a candlesticke because it held the light of life which Timothee abode in when Paul wrote vnto him that the church is the piller and ground of the truth euen this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by leauing of her first loue that Christ did therefore threaten her he would remoue her candlesticke out of his place vnlesse shee repented She repented not but by litle and litle became woorse woorse and heaped faut vpon faut yea many fautes vpon one both in maners and doctrine Therefore Christ remoued her candlesticke out of his place the chosen who shined with the light of faith he gathered to himselfe the called who hated the light he gaue ouer to darkenes the shadow of death the godly he made pillers in the temple of his God the hypocrites the filth of the temple he cast out to the dunghill of the vngodly and he left the citie of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomets impietie Now that may befall to euery one as they say which may befall to any one Then looke what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus that may to euery Church But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crased afterwarde quite ouerthrowne and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer Then is there no Church vpon the face of the earth howsoeuer it flatter it selfe with those titles of the candlesticke of Christ piller of the truth there is no Church I say whose bodie that is the chosen may not be ouertaken with faintnesse and darkenesse whose dregges that is the hypocrites may not be consumed with rottennesse and destruction finally whose whole frame constitution may not be depriued both of strength and beautie I know that the Papists answere hereunto that the militant Church may erre for the flockes the people that are in it but the guides and Pastours whose assemblie is called the Church by Christ saying tell the Church can not Which is false and fond For as there are sheepe and goates in the flockes so the Pastours of them are good hirelinges or theeues The good ones do slumber sometimes as the Apostles the hirelinges fly assoone as the woolfe commeth the theeues come to steale to kill and to destroy Wherefore no Pastour is exempt from danger of erring more or lesse And for the former point that they may erre in maners what néede I bring Apostles or Prophets to proue it The complaint of Bernard is fresh I would to God it were not too fresh there creepeth an owgly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church Which wordes being spoken in reproof of the life and conuersation of the Prelates that is of the Bishops Pastours of the Church doo shew that not a common disease but a rot and that not small but ougly and that creeping on not kéeping at a stay may infect not onely this or that member but the whole body of Pastors for their maners Now that they may also be ouerseene in doctrine and erre in pointes of faith it is plainely proued by those Corinthian Pastours who built hay and stubble vpon the foundation that S. Paul had layde by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth that there should be false teachers in the new Church as in the old there were false prophets by Samosatenus Arius Nestorius Pastors of famous Churches and autors of most heinous heresies yea by the Bishops of the whole world who all were Arians in a maner when there were scarce left a few Catholiks when the whole world did grone wonder at it selfe that it was become an Arian But the Papistes will reply that when they say the Church caÌ„not erre they meane the Church in that sense in which the Schoole-men call it representatiue that is Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a generall Councell What And hath that Church I meane a generall Councell this priuilege that it can not erre They hold so in deede But what will they say of so many Councels of the Arians which caused Gregorie Nazianzene to despaire that any good would be doon by Councels But they deny these to haue béene lawfull Councels What will they answere then to those which them selues confesse to haue béene lawfull The Councell of Laodicea though a prouinciall Councell yet allowed by a generall did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the olde Church had