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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A70435	A letter of many ministers in old England requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in New England concerning nine positions written Anno Dom. 1637 : together with their answer thereunto returned, anno 1639 : and the reply made unto the said answer and sent over unto them, anno 1640 / by Simeon Ash, and William Rathband.	Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662.; Rathband, William, d. 1695.	1643 (1643)	Wing L1573A; ESTC R11945	105,990	100

the many rich precious treasures of his grace wherewith the Lord hath furnished sandrie of you above your Brethren which causeth us with great reverence to accept and receive what further light God may be pleased to impart unto us by you But as we have beleeved so have we hitherto practised and so have most of us spoken this our Answer to your particulars most of us we may say because there wants not some Brethren amongst us who proceed further even to looke at all set formes of Prayer invented by men of another age or congregation and prescribed to their Brethren to be read out of a book for the prayers of the Church as Images or Imaginations of men forbidden in the second Commandement But as we leave them to their libertie of their own judgements without prejudice so do we also concurre with the rest of them so farre as we all goe in bearing witnesse against any set formes or the corruptions in them In dispatching whereof we have been the more slow because it behoved us first to inquire into and to settle some controversies amongst our selves before we could well attend to entertaine discourse about forraigne questions which do not so neerely concerne our present estate and practise Besides your Letters being sent to the Ministers of the Churches and some of us dwelling farre asunder it was not an easie thing for all of us often to meet together to consider of these Questions much lesse to resolve upon one just answer But having at length by the assistance of God brought our Answers to this issue we commend it to the blessing of the Lord and in him to your Christian and judicious consideration where if all things bee found safe and duely warranted from Scripture grounds do you also as seemeth vigilant Watchmen of the Lords flock and faithfull witnesses to God If any thing seeme doubtfull to you consider and weigh it very well before you reject it If any thing appeare to be unsound and dissonant from the Word which we for our parts cannot discerne we shall willingly attend to what further light God may send unto us by you In the meane while wee intreat you in the Lord not to suffer such apprehensions to lodge in your minds which you intimate in your Letters As if we here justified the wayes of riged separation which sometimes amongst you we have formerly borne witnesse against and so build againe the things we have destroyed you know they separate from your Congregations as no Churches from the Ordinances dispensed by you as meere Antichristian and from your selves as no visible Christians But wee professe unfainedly we separate from the corruptions which we conceive to be left in your Churches and from such Ordinances administred therein as we feare are not of God but of men And for your selves we are so farre from separating as from no visible Christians as that you are under God in our hearts if the Lord would suffer it to live and die together and we looke at sundrie of you as men of that eminent growth in Christianitie that if there by any visible Christians under heaven amongst you are the men which for these many yeeres have been written in your foreheads Holinesse to the Lord which we speake not to prejudice any truth which our selves are here taught and called to professe but we still beleeve though personall Christians may be eminent in their growth of Christianitie yet Churches had still need to grow from apparent defects to puritie and from reformation to Reformation age after age till the Lord have utterly abolished Antichrist with the breath of his mouth and the brightnesse of his comming to the full and cleare revelation of all his holy Truth especially touching the ordering of his house and publick worship as a pledge of this our estimation of you and sincere affection to you we have sent you these Answers to your demand and shall be readie by the help of Christ to receive back againe from you wise and just and holy Advertisements in the Lord. Now the Lord God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ your Lord and ours lead us all unto all Truths purge out all Leaven out of his Churches and keepe us blamelesse and harmlesse in his holy Faith and feare to his heavenly kingdome through him that hath loved us In whom we rest Your very loving Brethren the Elders of the Churches in New-England Reverend and dearely beloved Brethren IT is not to be doubted but while we live here we shall have just cause to search and try our ways look back upon former courses and call things done to more strict examination For being over-clouded with ignorance compassed about with infirmities and beset with many temptations to sinne knowing what we know best but darkly and in part no marvell if in many things we offend ignorantly of frailty for want of due consideration rashly mistaking Errour for Truth condemning Truth for Errour suspecting evill without cause and not suspecting where is just reason drawing erronious conclusions from sound principles and maintaining truths upon weak grounds so that in examination of our wayes and endevours of their Reformation wee had need to looke warily that wee turn not to the right hand or to the left for in the one we add to the Word of God as well as in the oother and of our selves are apt to strike aside to both A loose conscience will be profane a tender scrupulous It stands us therefore upon to have our selves in suspition in as much as experience teacheth that many have swerved from the path of sound peace and comfort on each hand Wherefore Beloved Brethren if since your comming into New England upon serious Review of former actions you have discovered any truths heretofore not taken notice of we shal be so far from rejecting them because of your former judgment and practice that we shall heartily desire to know and imbrace the same with you and blesse God for you as the happy instruments of his glory our Instruction the advancement of the truth But if the discoveries be of the like nature with the positions mentioned in the Letter as before so still we conceive them to be new opinions and not warranted by Scripture which is the true Antiquity Opinions we say not practices for not changing your opinion you might lawfully alter your practice nay what you did tolerate formerly as a burthen in case not free you might well forgoe being at your liberty Your judgement being the same you might use your liberty in forbearance of a set Liturgie and yet retaine the same judgement of a stinted Liturgie that you had before you might forbeare for a time upon speciall Reason such as present state and occasion might suggest to receive to the Sacrament approved Christians not set members of a particular Congregation as some Brethren do who yet dare not think it unlawfull to communicate with such in the act of worship or deem

A LETTER OF MANY MINISTERS IN OLD ENGLAND Requesting The judgement of their Reverend Brethren in New England concerning Nine Positions Written Anno Dom. 1637. Together with their Answer thereunto returned Anno 1639. And the Reply made unto the said Answer and sent over unto them Anno 1640. Now published by occasion mentioned in the Epistle to the Reader following in the next page upon the desire of many godly and faithfull Ministers in and about the City of London who love and seeke the truth By Simeon Ash and William Rathband 1 Thes 5. 21. Prove all things Hold fast that which is good LONDON Printed for Thomas Vnderhill at the signe of the Bible in great Woodstreet 1643. I Have diligently perused this Reply to the Answer of the Ministers of New-England to the nine Positions which I have approved and judge very necessarie and seasonable to bee Printed and published Iuly the fifth 1643. Iames Cranford Rector of Christophers London Errata PAge 22. Marg. read Romae p. 33 line 27 r. society p 37. l. 21. r. Of all true Churches p 37. l. 3● r. parium p. 47. l. 41 r. saith p 48. l. 30. r. quin. p. 50. l. 31 r. Ordinance The faults escaped in the quotation p. 5● in some Copies the reader is desired to correct by Beza de Presb. p 57 l. 7. r. is the same p 61 l 25. r. Objection p. 61. l. 28. r. were dispensed p 64 l ●4 r. which without p. 67. l. 14. r parium p. 67 l. 29 r. therefore to them p. 6● l. 28. r. with Christ To the Reader Good Reader VPon the receipt of the Answer returned unto the Nine Positions Master Ball moved by the request of Brethren drew up this reply which upon perusall and joynt approbation was directed unto the reverend Elders of the severall Churches in New England The Reply sent miscarrying in the hand to which it was committed though both Letters and printed Bookes trusted in the same hand were delivered Hereupon another Copie was from New England desired and accordingly prepared in the yeare following In the meane time the Answer being tendered to the Presse it was judged more meete to keepe the Reply in readinesse to attend the publishing of the Answer then to part with it in the other way This intelligence was the last yeare conveyed into New England since which time there hath been an expectation to see that in Print which now is sent abroad to open view By this Relation it is manifest who are voluntiers and who are pressed to come forth as defendants in these Controversies These differences betwixt the loving Brethren of old England and New had not been made thus notorious if some who cry up the Church way in New England as the only way of God had not been forward to blow them abroad in the world But surely the providence of God is remarkeable in bringing these questions into debate at this time When the Ministers of the Gospell from all the Counties in the Kingdome are called together by both houses of Parliament to consult about the healing of our breaches which are very many and dangerous The Copie of this Reply being committed to our custodie we are necessitated to appeare in the publication of it yet we shall preface nothing concerning the Treatise it selfe because our known respects to the reverend and judicious Author will tender us partiall and our testimony can adde no credit to his works which withall indifferent Readers will plead sufficiently for their own acceptance If this discourse shall adde any discovery of light unto them who desire a sound judgement in the controversies here agitated our end is obtained and our prayers answered who are Thy Servants in and for the truth Simeon Ash William Rathband The Letter of those Ministers in England who requested to know the judgement of their Brethren in New England in Nine positions wherein the reasons of this their request are truly reported Reverend and beloved Brethren WHiles we lived together in the same Kingdome we professed the same faith joyned in the same Ordinances laboured in the worke of God to gaine soules unto his kingdome and maintained the puritie of worship against corruptions both on the right hand and on the left But since your departure into New England we heare and partly beleeve it that divers have embraced certaine vain opinions such as you disliked formerly and we judge to be groundlesse and unwarrantable As that a stinted forme of prayer and set Liturgie is unlawfull That it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer or to receive the Sacrament where a stinted Liturgie is used 3. That the children of godly and approved Christians are not to be Raptized untill their parents bee set members of some perticular congregation 4. that the Parents themselves though of approved piety are not to be received to the Lords Supper untill they bee admitted as set members 5. That the power of Excommunication c. is so in the body of the Church that what the major part shall allow that must be done though the Pastors and Governors and part of the assembly be of another minde and peradventure upon more substantiall reasons 6. That none are to be admitted as set members but they must promise not to depart or remove unlesse the Congregation will give leave 7. That a Minister is so a Minister to a particular Congregation that if they dislike him unjustly or leave him he ceaseth to be a Minister 8. That a Minister cannot performe any ministeriall act in another Congregation 9. That members of one Congregation may not communicate in another These and other such like which we omit to reckon up are written and reported to be the common Tenents in New England which are received with great applause maintained with great confidence and applauded as the only Church way wherein the Lord is to be worshipped And letters from New England have so taken with divers in many parts of this Kingdome that they have left our Assemblies because of a stinted Liturgie and excommunicated themselves from the Lords Supper because such as are not debarred from it And being turned aside themselves they labour to ensnare others to the griefe of the godly the scandall of Religion the wounding of their owne soules if they did advisedly consider the matter and great advantage of them that are wily to espy and ready to make use of all advantages to prejudice the truth Beloved brethren if you stood in our places we are well assured it would be no small griefe unto you to heare and see the people led afide to the disgrace of the Gospell upon weake and groundlesse imaginations and in rash and inconsiderate zeale to deale with that which is of God as if it were of man And if it be to us griefe of heart to heare that you have changed from that truth which you did professe and embrace that for truth which in former times upon sound grounds you did condemne

it just and right altogether to debar them as having no right nor title to those priviledges of the Church It is your opinions whereto we had respect not simply your practice It never entred into us to perswade you to a set Liturgy much lesse to complain that you had not accepted ours But that all stinted Liturgies should be condemned as devised worship and so condemned as that none may lawfully be present at or pertake of the Sacraments administred in a stinted or devised forme this wee called a new opinion Neither do we mention it because we knew it to be the private opinion of some Brethren among you whom we had left to the liberty of their owne judgment so far as the maintenance of the Truth and a just call did not ingage us but because it was cryed up and advanced with all diligence and endeavour of some among us standing affected England-ward as if a chief point of holinesse consisted in separation You know how great a fire a little sparkle kindles And seeing this Distraction and Rent had its originall growth and continuance from some Brethren in those parts or affected to that way when in loving and friendly manner we could neither receive grounds at home for our conviction nor procure just satisfaction to the contrary what could wee doe lesse then call upon you joyntly to know your judgment and either by sound proof to be by you convinced if happily you should approve their separation which we esteem groundlesse rash unlawfull and prejudiciall to outward peace or being backed by a testimony of its dislike from you we might the better be both incouraged and furnished to endevour the quenching of that fire which was kindled but in too many places In other perticulars also wee conceive you goe beyond Commission given of God granting them authority to whom God hath not committed it debarring others from the priviledge of the Sacraments who have title thereto by the Covenant of grace Your love in that you were pleased to signifie first your kinde and respective acceptance of our Letter and now also to send us an answer thereto we acknowledge it with all thankfulnesse and shall endevour through the grace of God to return like affection in truth of heart if in measure we fall short Of your respect to us in particular we make no question your expressions are beyond that we could expect as also what we dare own But we humbly beseech the Lord to direct uphold and guide us that in some measure we may walk worthy of our vocation and approv our selves faithfull to your consciences It was one end of our writing to be satisfied in this point whether you approve the ways of Separation whereof wee complain and their courses who laboured with all their might when they conceived hope to be heard to perswade therunto Against which if we knew your judgment you testified among us You know they that separate are not all of one straine and temper Some deny all communion with us publick and private some admit of private but deny all publick and some joyne in Prayer before and after Sermon as also preaching of the Word because in their esteeme this may be done without communion in a Church-way but refuse to partake of the Sacraments All which Separations wee judge uncharitable contrary to the Commandement of Christ and have ever thought that you whilst with us and we were of one minde herein If of late we have conceived fears of some of you deere Brethren as leaning too much to what formerly you disliked we beseech you weigh what urgent and pressing Reasons forced us thereunto and we shall most gladly wee heartily desire you to rest assured lay hold of every line and syllable that may tend to dislodge such apprehensions For as we conceive the dispute to be unreasonably moved the Rent offensive the opinions themselves prejudiciall to the cause of God and the advancers thereof to have passed the limits prescribed by God so wee shall esteem it an inestimable blessing if now what hinders being removed wee might joyn with one heart and soule in one way of God to promote his glory and seek the good of his Church and people We trust in the Lord we should not draw back in any course wherein wee may see the Lord going before us nor be an offence to any to keep the Lords way wee seek the truth and are perswaded it is the cause of God which we defend we plead for Communion with the Churches of Christ no further then they hold communion with Christ still desiring to keepe the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace with your selves and all others who walke in the right way of truth peace and comfort How the Lord may be pleased to deale with us or dispose of us wee know not his blessed will be done But of this we are resolved through his grace not willingly to raise trouble or dissention among you if through ignorance or infirmity we shall not so fall in as to be of one minde with you in these matters And here we desire you to consider that in these particulars you dissent as much one from another as we dissent from you and that wherein we dissent from you and perhaps from the lesser part of you you dissent from the judgement and practice of all Reformed Churches This wee speake not to prejudice your cause but to intreat your serious re-examination of what you have sent us and this tryall thereof by the Touchstone of the Word For if we mistake not in many things it will not abide the Test You have written in great love and tendernesse that your Positions might be so scanned and wee shall endeavour with such affection to try all things and hold fast that which is good And now beseeching the guidance of the Spirit with your leave wee shall endeavour to deale fully and plainly as the nature of the cause requireth intreating you impartially to consider the grounds whereupon we go and weigh what wee shall say in the ballance of the Sanctuary The Lord of his rich mercy in Jesus Christ direct us in discerning what is right and pleasing in his sight Cast offences out of the Church close up Rents and Divisions reveal his Truth more and more set up and mayntain the purity of his own Ordinances unite the hearts of his people to the love and feare of his holy Name teach us self-deniall and keep us blamelesse to the comming of the Lord Jesus Christ Amen I POSITION That a stinted forme of Prayer and set Liturgie is unlawfull Answ BEfore we proceed to declare our selves concerning this position It will be needfull that some thing be premised for the explication of the terms thereof We suppose 1 By a Liturgy and forme of Prayer you mean not a forme of private Prayers composed for the helpe and direction of weaker Christians but the System or body of publike Prayers generally used in