essential forme doth shewe it to the vnderstandinge the marke designes the thing in the existence the essentiall forme designes it in the offence The marke teacheth where the thinge is and the essentiall forme teacheth what it is the marke is sooner knowne then the thing and contrarywise the thing is sooner knowne then the essentiall forme of the thing for the thing defined as Aristotle saith preceedes in knowledge the definition that is to saie the whole is knowne before the resolution of the thing into his essentiall partes And therefore to saie that the eminencie of the Communion is not the essentiall forme of the Church hinders it not from being a marke of the Church and a marke likewise not only greatlie necessary but absolutely necessary She hath saith Saint AVGVSTINE this most certaine marke that shee cannot be hidden shee is then knowne to all nations the Sect of Donatus is vnknowne to many nations therefore that is not shee Againe on the other side to saie that the doctrine is the essentiall forme or belongeth to the essentiall forme of the Church makes not that 〈◊〉 it should be a marke of the Church for a marke must haue three conditions The first is to be more knowne then the thing since it is it that makes the thing knowne the second that the thing neuer bee found without it And the third as we haue said elswhere that it be neuer found either alone if it be a totall marke or with its fellowes if it be a marke in part without the thing Now the truth of doctrine in all instances thereof is much harder to be knowne then the societie of the Church I said in all instances thereof because to know the right of the cause of the Church in one particular question with one or other Sect sufficeth not to knowe the Church by the doctrin but it is necessary to know the truth of the doctrine of the Church in all her particularities contested by heresies as well past as present before we can 〈◊〉 by vertue of the examination of the doctrine where the true Church is For there needes no more but that shee goe wrong in anie one controuersie to make her fall from the title of the true Church Now who is he that can vaunt to know the integritie of the doctrine of the Church in all her instances and to haue made the examination against euery one of the other societies by infallible and insoluble proofes to all theire answeres and by inuincible and irrefutable answeres to all theire obiections And if anie could doe this who knowes not that the simple people and ignorant and rusticall persons of whose Saluation neuerthelesse God hath the same care that he hath of the learned and to whom the markes of the Church should be equally common since they are equallie obliged to obay her are not capable of this examination For the rest of the people saith Saint AVGVSTINE it is not the quicknes of vnderstandinge but the simplicity of beliefe that secures them And by consequent who seeth not that they must haue other markes to know the Church by then that of her doctrine to wit markes proportionable to theire capacitie that is to saie externall and sensible markes as 〈◊〉 antiquitie perpetuitie and such like euen as children and ignorant persons must haue externall and sensible markes and other then the essentiall forme of a man to know and discerne a man from other liuing creatures By what manifest marke cries out Saint AVGVSTINE speaking in the person of a Catechumenist by what demonstration shall I that am yet little and weake and cannot discerne the pure truth from the manie errors know the Church of Christ to which I am constrained to belieue by the euent of soe manie things heeretofore presaged for these causes saith he the Prophet goes forward and as it were collecting methodically the motions of that spiritt saith that she is foretolde to be that Church which is eminent and apparent to all And a little after and also because of the motions of these little ones who may be seduced and diuerted by men from the brightnes of of the Church our Lord goes before them saying The Citie built vpon the Mountaine cannot be hidd And indeede how is it that Esaie should prophecy that In the last daies the Mountaine of the Lord should be on the topp of all the Mountaines and that all the hills should flow to her and that the Nations should come and saie let vs goe vp into the Mountaine of our Lord and into the howse of the God of Iacob and he will 〈◊〉 vs his waies if the only marke to know assuredly the howse of the Lord that is to saie the Church were the especiall knowledge of his waies And how should Sainct PAVL say God hath placed in the Church Apostles Prophetes Euangelists Pastors and Doctors c. to the end we should be noe more little children blowne about with euery winde of doctrine if he had not giuen vs other markes to know the Church then the puritie of doctrine Besides suppose the doctrine to be the marke of the Church it must be either the doctrine contested betweene the parties that pretend the title of the Church or the doctrine not contested now it cannot be the doctrine not contested because both sides haue it And lesse yet the doctrine contested for while the truth of the doctrine is contested it remaines vndecided of which side it is and the certaine and assured decision cannot be made but by the Church by which meanes it is necessary that duringe the cōtestation of the doctrine there must be other markes to know the Church by which being acknowledged the question of the doctrine may be decided And you cannot saie that the contested doctrine can be decided by Scripture only for besides that there are matters of Religion which are not anie waie touched by the Scripture ās that whereof Saint AVGVST speaketh The Apostles in truth haue prescribed nothing of that but this custome which was opposite to Cyprian ought to be belieued to haue taken its originall from theire tradition Saint IEROME protests that the Scriptures consist not in the reading but in the vnderstanding and that by a wrong interpretation the Ghospell of God may be made the Ghospell of a man nay which is worse the Ghospell of the diuell Wherefore to iudge surely of the doctrine by the Scripture it is necessarie to be first assured of the interpretation of the Scripture and that by an infallible meanes For all the conclusions of Faith which are not found in termes expresse and incapable of ambiguitie in the Scripture but are drawne by interpretations to make them conclusions of Faith and decisions infallible and equall to the authoritie of theire principles must be drawne from it by an infallible meane Now there are but three waies whereby we may pretend to be assured that a conclusion drawne from
spouse markes of the place where he dwells she saith Least I be as hidden amougst the flockes of thy competitors that is to saie saith saint AVGVSTINE of those that being in the beginninge with thee would assemble without not thy flocke but theire stocks For what is this but to saie that the Church demaundes marks of her spouse not to be discerned from all kinde of things but to be discerned only from the societie of heretickes which beare by false markes the name of Christ and the title of Churches And secondly it is not necessary that the markes in parte that is to saie those that taken separatlie haue not the entire office of markes may not be found euery one a parte without the thing marked but that the thing may not be found without euery one of them nor they taken iointly and altogether without the thing whose marke they are And therefor the argument of the markes in parte separated is good to argue negatiuely and to saie with sainct Austine against the Donatistes The Church hath this most certaine marke that she cannot be hidden she is then knowne to all nations the sect of Donatus is vnknowne to manie nations then that is not she Or with saint IEROM against the Luciferians Hilarius being dead a deacon he could ordaine no Priest after him now that is noe Church that hath noe Priestes or with the same saint AVGVSTINE against all heresies in generall euerie heresie that sitts in corners is a concubine and no matron But the argument of the markes in part taken iointlie is good to argue both negatiuely and affirmatiuely and to conclude with saint AVGVSTINE Suppose then that I omitt this wisedome that you denie to be in the Catholicke Church there are many other thinges that retaine me most iustlie in her lappe The consent of people and nations retaines me The authoritie begun by miracles nourished by hope increased by charitie confirmed by antiquitie retaines me The Succession of Prelates since the sea of Peter to whom or Lord consigned the feeding of his sheepe after his resurrection to the present Bishops Sea retaines me and finallie the very name of Catholicke retaines me which not without cause this Church alone amongst soe manie and soe great heresies hath so maintained as when a stranger askes where they assemble to comunicate in the Catholicke Church there is no hereticke tha dare shew him his owne temple or his owne howse From what places of the voice of the sheepeheard the markes of the Church ought to be taken CHAPTER VI. The continuance of the Kinges answere The king hath learnt from the reading of the holie Scripture and all the Fathers heretofore none excepted held noe otherwise that the true and essentiall forme of the Church is that the sheepe of Christ doe heare the voice of theire pastor THE REPLIE To heare the voice of the Pastor is the office of the sheepe but not the essentiall forme either of the Church or of the sheepe For the essentiall forme of the Church I meane essentiall forme analogically as that of the supposts constituted by aggregation is vnitie in the meanes of vocation to saluation and the essentiall forme of the flocke is the communion and participation to this vnitie The name of Church saith saint CHRISOSTOM is a name of agreement and vnion And saint AVGVSTINE God is one the Church is vnitie nothing agreeth with this one ' but vnitie But if the essentiall forme of the flocke were to heare the voice of the Pastor doth not he heare the voice of the Pastor that heares her voice of whom the Pastor said by the mouth of Esay Thou shalt iudge euerie tongue that resisteth thee in Iudgement And by his owne mouth The gates of Hell shall not preuaile against her And whosoeuer heares her not shall be held as a heathen and a Publican And by the mouth of saint PAVL He hath placed in the Church Apostles Prophets Euangelists Pastors and Doctors c. that we may no more be little children fleeting and wauering with euerie wind of Doctrine And doth not saint AVGVSTINE cry out The truth of Scripture is held by vs when we doe that which pleaseth the vniuersall Church whom the authoritie of the same scriptures recommends And againe There are manie thinges that the vniuersall Church obserueth and which therefore are lawfullie belieued to haue bene deliuered by tradition of the Apostles although we finde them not written And then againe to heare the voice of the Pastor is it not to heare it according to true vnderstanding for doth not TERTVLLIAN pronounce An adulterate glosse doth as much outrage to the truth as a false penne And doth not Saint Hilarie saie The heresie is in the vnderstanding and not in the Scripture the sense and not the word becomes the crime And doth not saint Ierome write The Ghospell is not in the words but in the sense And doth not saint AVGVSTINE cty out All the heretickes which receiue the scriptures thincke to follow them when they follow theire owne errors And in an other place Heretickes were no heretickes but that misvnderstanding the Scripture they defend obstinately theire owne false opinions against the truth thereof And againe Manie things are spoken by Christ in the Scriptures in such a manner as the impions Spirits of heretickes who will needs teach before they are taught are thereby lead into error And vpon saint Iohn The heresies and peruerse doctrines which intangle Soules and cast them headlong into hell haue theire birth no where but from good Scriptures euilly vnderstood And so is not the question still to whom it belongs to iudge infalliblie of the true sense of the Scripture Moreouer the first voice of the shepheard that the Fathers summond the sheepe to heare is it not that whereby he designes the markes of his Sheepefolde that is of his Church I haue said saint AVGVSTINE the most manifest voice of my pastor who recommends and expresses to me his Church without anie ambigiutie I must blame myself if for the wordes of men I straie from his floke which is the Church since principallie he admonishes me saying My sheepe heare my voyce Now which is this voice of the pastor wherein Saint AVGVSTINE will haue vs seeke for the markes of the Church but that wich expresses not the doctrine contested betweene him and his aduersaries which was that of the truth of the baptisme giuen by hereticks but the prerogatiues of eminencie perpetuitie vniuersalitie and other externall and sensible markes and conditions promised to the Church If the holie Scriptures saith saint AVGVSTINE haue designed the 〈◊〉 only in Africa and in a little medly of men dwelling in the rockes and Mountaines neere Rome and in the howse and territorie of a spanish Ladie though whatsoeuer other pamphlets may be produced there are none but the Donatists that haue the Church if the
that where of God saith by the mouth of Esay Thou shalt iudge euerie tongue that shall resist thee in iudgement And by his owne The gates of Hell thall not preuaile against her And againe Let him that heares not the Church be vnto thee as a heathen or a publica And by that of S. PAVL God hath placed in the Church Apostles Prophets Pastors and Doctors c. that we may noe longer 〈◊〉 little Children waueringe with euerie winde of doctrine And againe The Church is the Pillar and foundation of trutb doth not RVFFINVS write that Saint Basile and Saint GREGORY Nazianzene tooke the interpretacion of the Scriptures not from theire owne sense but from the tradition of the Fathers And doth not Saint AVGVSTINE crie out within the wombe of the Church is the dwellinge of truth And againe All the fulnesse of authoritie and all the light of reason for reparation of human kinde consistes in the only healthfull name of Christ and in his only Church And doth not VINCENTIVS Lirinensis say because all vnderstand not the holie Scripture by reason of the depth thereof in one sense But one interprets it in one fashion an other in an other so that it seemes there may be as many seuer all opinions drawne out of it as there are seuer all men for Nouatiā expounds it one waie Photinus another waie Sabellius an other Donatus an other Arrius Eunomius Macedonius an other Apollinaris Priscillianus an other Iouinian Pelagius Caelestius and finally Nestorius an other for these causes it is verie necessarie to auoid the perill as so manie great Labyrinths of so diuers errors that the line of the propheticall and apostolicall interpretation should be drawne according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholique sense And háue not the ministers of Geneua themselues noted this in the margent of theire last Bibles The doctrine of Faith requires a domesticall and particular instruction namely in those that are ordained to deliuer it into the Church least they should take it in theire owne particular sense vnder colour of the Scripture And this is it that was anciently called TRADITION in the Church Now if the certainty of the interpretation of the Church ought to be také according to the exposition of the very Geneua Bibles not from the sense of euery particular man but from the traditiō of the Church how can it be that the truth of the vnder standinge of the Scripture should be the only certaine and infallible marke to discerne and know the Church But against these proofes the aduersaries of the Church propound obiections which we had best cōfute before we proceede to an other article The first obiection is that Saint AVSTINE in his writinge against the Manichees after he hath made a longe list of the markes of the Church addes this Among you where no such thing is found as holdes and tyes me there soundes only a promisse of the truth which if it be soe manifestly demonstrated as none can call it in question ought to be preferred before all those things whereby I am retained in the Catholicke Church And from hence they conclude that S. AVGVSTINE held not the other markes for necessary and infallible but onelie for probable and coniecturall since he offered to depart from them if they could demonstrate to him vndoubtedly that the truth was of the other side To this I make two answeres one that the truth whereof Saint AVGVSTINE speakes makes nothing for theire purpose that alleage it For Saint AVGVSTINE speaketh not there of the truth demonstrated by scripture which is that whereof the Protestants vaunt but of the truth demonstrated by the light of naturalle reason which was that that the Manichees promised as it appeares by what he said three lines belowe I would not beleeue the Ghospell if the authoritie of the Catholicke Church did not moue me to it And a little after And therefore if thou must yeeld me a reason set aside the Ghospell if thou wilt tye thy-self to the Ghospell I will tye myself to those by whom I haue beleued in the Ghospell And againe The authoritie of the Catholiks being destroyed I could not beleeue the Ghospell because it is by them that I haue beleeued it And in an other place That which remaines for you is to saie that you will produce areason soe certaine and inuincible as the truth thereof being manifested by it selfe it shall haue noe neede of the authoritie of anie witnes nor of the veritie vertue you must reade of anie miracle The other answer is that Saint AVGVSTINE did not propound this in the forme of a possible condition for contrarywise he disputes of deliberate purpose against the Manichees that the naturall light of reason could not be the waie to come to the knowlege of the truth of saluation but in the forme of an impossible condition and which consequentlie diminisheth nothing from the efficacie of the markes of the Church as it appeares by what he addes immediatelie after But if it be only promised and not exhibited none shall separate me from this Faith which by so manie and so great bondes so calls he the externall and sensible markes of the Church bindes my Spirit to the Christian Religion The second obiection that the aduersaries of the Church oppose is that the externall and sensible marks that the Fathers assigne to the Church as antiquitie perpetuitie eminencie and succession belong not to the Church only for as much as manie other things may claime antiquitie as the Sunne the Sea the mountaines and manie other succession as the Springs the brookes the riuers and manie other vniuersalitie as the aire the earth and the other Elements and euen amougst Religions that of the pagans hath heeretofore had eminencie and vniuersalitie and that of the Iewes hath still antiquitie and perpetuitie Certainlie a childish and ridiculous obiection for first the marks that God hath giuen to his Church haue not bene imposed vpon her to distinguish her frō all kindes of things but to distinguish her only from those things that are contained though equiuocally vnder the same next kinde and may be supposed and taken for Churches that is to saie from other Christian societies to witt from hereticall and Schismaticall Sects which challenge and pretend by false markes the title of the Church no more then the markes that Golodmithes giuen to golde that it will not euaporate in the fire and that it will resist the coupelle and the water of separatiō are not giue it to discerne it from all kinde of bodies for there are other bodies to which these conditions arc common as glasse and diamondes but to discerne it from false gold that is from metalls made and sophisticated that may be supposed and made to passe for golde And this alsoe Saint AVGVSTINE esteemes the Church would insinuate in the Canticle where after she hath demaunded of her
if anie of her members departe from the rule of faith will preferre the loue of truth before the loue of vnitie She knowes that the supreme lawe in the howse of God is the sinceritie of heauélie doctrine which if anie one forsake he forsakes Christ who is truth it self he forsakes the Church which is the 〈◊〉 foundation of truth VVith such separatistes a man truly Catholique neither will nor maic communicate Far what agreement is there betweene Christ and 〈◊〉 THE REPLIE HEERE his Maiestie must giue me leaue to saie that he changeth the way of his disputation and goes out of the lists quite from the state of the question For the question is not whether to obtaine the name of Catholicke to attaine to saluation it be necessary to be vnited with anie one of the members of the Church when it comes to be separated frō truth but whether to obtaine the name of Catholicke attaine to saluation it be necessatie to be vnited with the whole masse vniuersall Bodie of this Church which the Fathers haue called Catholick Neither is it the question whether there may be anie externall and visible societie wherewith it is vnlawfull to commuuicate but whether such a tyme can be wherein there is noe externall and visible Societie wherewith it is necessary to communicate For to saic that all Communion are not to be desired and that there are Congregations wherewith it is not lawfull to Communicate whieh of vs euer doubted it Nay contrarily doe we not daily pronounce anathema against those that Communicate with heretickes or Schismatickes and in that we 〈◊〉 his maiestie to returne to the Communion of the Catholicke Church from that of the Caluinists doth it not proue sufficiently that we holde not that there should be Cōm union helde with all kinde of sects The state thē of the questiō to ouerthrowe our Thesis and cōclude some thinge against vs requires not to proue that there may be Societies wherewith we ought to haue noe Cōmunion for who denies that but to proue that there may come a tyme wherein there can be found noe externall and visible Societie wherewith it is lawfull to communicate and that this tyme beinge come as Luther supposed it to be when he began to pitch his ensignes in the fielde it is necessary to goe forth from all the Religions that are then to be found visible in the world and to make a new Communion and a congregation a parte See heere what is needefull to be proued and in steede of this the excellent kinge aleageth that if anie member of the Church departe from the rule of Faith the Church must preserr the loue of veritie before the loue of vnitie To this answere of his 〈◊〉 we will answere two thinges the first that there is noe incompatibilitie beweene this thesis we must be vnited with the vniuersall bodie of the Catholicke Church And this antithesis if anie member departe from the rule of faith we must not be vnited with it For the one speakes of the bodie of the Church and the other speakes of some one of the members of the Church and the speciall mention os some one of the Church departing from the true faith supposes the staie and perseuerāce of the rest of the bodie of the Church in the faith Now it is with that bodie from whence that parte that forsakes the faith deuides it selfe that wee say we must haue Communion and vnitie and not with the parte that separates it selfe from the bodie for it is not a meanes to maintaine vnitie to haue vnitie with those that deuide themselues from vnitie The second that there is great difference betweene the rightes and 〈◊〉 of the Catholicke Church the preuiledges of particular Churches For the infallible assistance of the holy Ghost was neuer promised to euery particular Church but to the bodie of the Catholicke Church And therefore as the elements are corruptible in their partes but incorruptible in their all soe the Church is corruptible in her parts but incorruptible in her all in such sorte that though some particular Churches may erre in faith and consequentlie cease from beinge Churches neuerthelesse there alwaies remaines one masse of a Churche exempt 〈◊〉 corruptiō soe greate and eminent that she representes and conserues in herselfe the beinge rightes and prerogatiues of all the whole And soe the obligation that we haue to Communicate with the Catholicke Church is one thinge and an other the obligation that we haue to Communicate with particular Churches For with her wee are bound to Communicate necessarily and absolutely vnder paine of anathema and damnation because out of her Communion none can be saued and with others onely whiles they Communicate with her And the pretence of truth cannot be alleadged to make this obligation conditionall since Saint Paule saith the Church is the fouudation of truth And Saint AVGVSTINE within the wombe of the Church truth hath her dwellinge Nor can it be obiected that the supreme lawe in the howse of God is the sinceritie of heauenly Doctrine For besides that this lawe hath her Statutes written and vnwritten following this precept of S. PAVL followe the traditions that you haue receiued from vs whether by wordes or by Epistles And this testimonie of Eusebius The Apostles haue giuen some things by writing and others by vnwritten lawes And this obseruation of sainct CHRYSOSTOME From whence it appeares that the Apostles haue not deliuered all things by writinges but manie things alsoe without writing it is not only necessary in matters contested to haue a lawe but it is needefull besides the lawe to haue a iudge with authoritie able to oblige and subdue the sense of particular persons to interpret the wordes of the lawe which Iudge as we haue alreadie demonstrated cā be noe other but the Church How to vnderstand these wordes of sainct Gregory Nazianzene There is a sacred warre CHAP. XIV The continuance of the Kings Answere THE Church then must flye the communion of those and saie with sainct Gregory Nazianzene that a 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 is better then an infected vnitie And will not doubt to pronoūce with the same blessed Father that there is a sacred warie THE REPLIE THERE is noe doubt of prouing that there may be some societie whose communion must be auoided for none denies it but of prouing that there may come such a tyme wherein there is noe externall and visible societie wherewith we are bounde to cōmunicate Now the places that his Maiestie citeth out of S. GREGORIE NAZIANZENE are soe farre from insinuatinge anie such thing as they affirme the quite contrary For S. GREGORIE saith not these wordes against the externall and visible Communion of the Church of his tyme but against the craftie practises of the Arrians which demaūded vnder pretence of peace to be receiued into the communion of the Church with Confessions of the faith ambiguous and
in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lord Iesus Christ I thinke wee ought rather to seeke her in his word from him that is truth and well knowes his owne Bodie And a while after I would not haue the Church demonstrated by humane instructions but by diuine or acles And againe Let vs then seeke her in the canonicall scriptures He did not intend that to seeke the Church in the scriptures betweene the Catholicks and the Donatists was to seeke the doctrine of the Church in the scriptures that is to saie to examin by the scriptures the point of doctrine which was contested betweene the Church and the Donatists but to seeke the markes and externall and visible characters of the Church in the scriptures to the end that the Church being discerned by those markes the truth of the doctrine contested might be after knowne by the disposition of the Church For the vnderstanding whereof it must be noted that there were two questions betweene the Catholickes and the Donatistes the one of the Bodie of the Church to know on what party either of the Catholickes or of them the true societie of the Church resided The other of the doctrine of the Church to witt the which they or the Catholickes held the true doctrine concerning the Baptisme of heretickes The first question then which is of the Bodie of the Church saint AVGVSTINE wills it should be iudged by the scripture alone for as much as in the precise controuersie wherein the question was which of the two societies was the Church the voice of the true Church cannot be discerned But the second question which is that of the doctrine contested betweene the Catholicks and the Donatists he would haue it decided by the onlie deposition of the Church as a faith full guardian and depositarie of the Apostolicke tradition To seeke then according to saint AVGVSTINE betweene the Catholickes and the Donatists the Church in the Scriptures was not to search the doctrine of the Church in the contentious points of Faith in the Scripture but to seeke the visible markes and notes by which the Church ought to be exteriorly discerned in the Scripture For the Donatists to proue that their Church was the true Church and not the Catholicke Church alleadged human actes and human proofes to witt that the Catholicke Church had receaued into her communion without anie expiation and purgation of preceding pennance those that had deliured the holie Bookes to be burnt and had sacrificed to the false Gods in the time of persecution and therfore that she was polluted with their contagion and was perished And then that the onely faction of Donatus which had remained pure from this contagion was the true Church And saint AVGVSTINE contrariwise saith that against all these words which were human proofes and words for if he that ordained Cecilianus had deliuered vp the holy Bookes in persecution time it was a thing to be proued by human testimonies that is to saie by actes of notaries and clerkes euen prophane the Catholickes had the wordes of Christ wherein the workes of the Church were described to witt that she ought to be visible eminent vniuersall perpetuall and that to examin the Church according to these markes it was to seeke her in the words of Christ and to examine her according to the production of the Donatists it was to seeke her in humane wordes What are saith hee our words wherein wee must not seeke her c. All that wee obiect one against an other of the deliuerie of the holie Bookes of the sacrificing to Jdolls and of the persecutions those are our wordes And a while after I would not that the Church should be demonstrated by human instructions but by diuine oracles for if the holse Scriptures haue designed the Church to be in Africa alone and in a smalle number of Roman inhabitants making their conuenticles in Rockes and mount 〈◊〉 and in the howse and territorie of a certaine Spanish Ladie then whatsoeuer records can be produced there are none but the Donatists that haue the Church If the Scripture assigne it to a little number of Mauritanians in the 〈◊〉 prouince you must goe to the Rogatists If in a smalle troupe of Bizacenians and Tripolitans prouincialls the Maximinianists haue mett with her If those of the East alone wee must seeke her amongst the Arrians Macedonians Eunomians and others if there be others for who can number the heresies as proper and particular of euerie particular Prouince But if by the diuine and most certaine testimonies of the Canonicall scriptures she be designed in all nations whatsoeuer they produce and whensoeuer it be produced by those that saie there is Christ if wee be 〈◊〉 let vs 〈◊〉 heare the voice of our Shepheard saying beleeue them not For euerie one of those is not to be found but this which is ouer all is to bee found in the selfe same places where the others are And therefore lett vs seeke her in the holie Canonicall scriptures The places the of the scripture where S. AVGVSTINE would haue the Donatists to seeke the Church are these In thy seede all the nations vpon the earth shal be blessed The children of the forsaken shal be in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 number then those of her that hath a husband This Ghospell must be declared ouer the whole world and then the end shall bee I am with you to the consummation of ages And other such like And the arguments that he bringes to manifest the Church by the Scriptures are these The cittie of God saith he hath this for a certaine marke that she cannot be hidden she is thē knowne to all nations the sect of Donatus is vnknowne to manie nations then that is not shee Item You haue the Church which ought to be spread ouer all and to growe till the haruest You haue the Cittie whereof hee that built it hath said the Cittie built vpon the mountaine cannot be hidd It is she then that is most euident not in anie one part of the world but ouer all And other the like But as for the point of doctrine I saie againe and I saie it boldlie that saint AVGVSTINE neuer intended either that the question of the Church betweene the Catholiques and the Donatists should be tryed by the doctrine nor that the article of the doctrine contested betweene thē should be decided by scripture but that the point of the Church should be examined by the externall and visible markes that of the externall and visible markes by the Scripture and the difference of doctrine by the reporte of the Church that is to saie by the tradition of the Apostles is to denie that in disputatiōs against other heresies whē pointes are handled which are heere esteemed to be expresselie treated of by the canonicall Scriptures but that hee often called vpon their iudgment For who doubtes but that where the Scripture is cleere
beginning of these last diuisions either perswaded in some pointes by the innouators or ioyned to the partie of the innouators themselues haue attempted to seeke out some accommodation in matter of doctrine and of the vniuersall Religion of the Church to come to a reunion perswading themselues that as the Poet saith all men doe Sinn Without the walls of Troy and 〈◊〉 within It will bee alwaies easie for vs to shew that the desire of reconciliation rather then the knowledge of antiquitie and truth hath caused them to speake this language Of the agreement or disagreement of the English reformers with the Donatists CHAP. XXXI The continuance of the Kinges answere AND therefore the English Church feareth not that she can seeme in the iudgment of sincere arbitrators to haue done anie thinge like to the 〈◊〉 in this separation They out of a iollitie of harte and without anie cause abandoned the Catholicke 〈◊〉 approued by the consent of all nations whereof they could neither blame the faith nor the discipline THE REPLIE NEITHER was the Catholicke Church then actuallie approued by all nations for these prophecies In thy seede shall all nations be 〈◊〉 and This Ghospell must be preached ouer all the world shall not be fullie accōplisht as S. AVGVSTINE notes till the end of the world But it might well be said by 〈◊〉 in regard of other Christian sectes to be spread ouer all nations because the extent thereof was more eminont as it is nowe then that of anie other Christian Societie Neither was she approued by 〈◊〉 men of all the Christian nations For who knowes not how great the multitude of other heresies was when the sect of the Donatists sprange vp and how much greater then when the passages of the Fathers cited in the beginning of this obseruation were pronounced against them Of one side the Arrians possessed almost all the East of the other side the number of the Donatists was such in Africa as they held all at a time Councells of three hūdred Bishops yea euē in the time of S. AVGVSTINE there where whole natiōs that professed christianitie which did not acknowledg 〈◊〉 Catholick Church as that of the Gothes Vandalls And in breefe elghtie or an hundred other sects of Christiās which were then in the world diuided like Sāpsons Foxes by the heads but tyed together by the tayles did all agree to reproue the Catholicke Church And whereas the excellent king addeth that the Donatists could blame neither the faith nor discipline of the Catholicke Church if by blaming his maiestie intend to blame with reason that is not particular to the Donatistes for neuer anie Sect either Schismaticall or hereticall could blame with reason the faith or discipline of the Church But if by blaming he intend accusing and slandring her and beleeuing that they had iust occasion to doe soe who euer blamed the faith and discipline of the Catholicke Church more then the donatists who called themselues the Bishops of thē Catholicke truth and obiected to the Catholickes that they erred in faith in beleeuing that the holy Ghost resided out of the Church and in holding that Baptisme which cannot be administred but by the operation of the holy Ghost might be conferred out of the Church and in the Societie of hereticks who reprocht it to them thāt they violated these oracles One faith one Baptisme It is lawfull to be baptised if thou dost beleeue be yee euery one of you baptised in the remission of Sinnes Christ purgeth his Church by the washing of water in the word Who heares not the Church lett him be as a publican and as a heathen Baptisme is the washing of the regeneration of the Ghost The Church is the close Garden and the sealed Fountaine Who gathers not with Christ scatters And other such like alleadged by them in so great number as Vincentius Lyrinensis cryes out But perchance this new inuention that is to saie the heresie of the Donatists will want defences nay she was assisted with soe great strength of spirit with so many flouds of Eloquence with so great a number of protectors with so much likelyhood with so manie oracles of diuine lawe but expounded in a new and naughtie manner that it seemes to me that such a conspir aice could neuer haue benē destroyed if this same imbraced this same defended this same extolled profession of noueltie had not in the end left the cause of soe great a motion alone and abandoned And as for the discipline of the Church did not they blame it who taxed the discipline of the Church to haue receiued without expiation of preceding pennance those that in the persecution time had denied Christ and communicated in the sacrifices of the Pagans and consequently to haue bene polluted with the contagion of the Pagans who accused her for hauing receaued conuerted heretickes into her communion without giuing them true Baptisme which could not be giuen according to them but in the Church and consequently to haue polluted her communion with the contagion of vnbaptised or vncircumcised spirituallie and so to haue lost the being of the true Church which could not subsist without the true vse of the sacramēts Who made profession in manners of a conuersation of life much better ruled more reformed then that of the Catholickes from whence it is that S. AVGVSTINE forbidds the catholicks to reproche the Donatists with anie other thing but that they were not Catholickes Who called themselues the little flocke of the lord the two tribes of the Kingdome of Iuda who said we hauing nothing and possessing all things wee account our soule to he our riches and by our paines and our blood we purchase the treasure of heauen And in breese who supposed themselues to haue such reason for their separation as they reputed the Catholickes not to be worthie of so much as the name of Christians as hauing lost the true vse of Baptisme whereby men are made Christiās when they spake to them they said Caius Seius Caia Seia O man 〈◊〉 thou be a Christian O woeman wilt thou be a Christian And cryed to them Come o yee ignorant and wretched people who are commonlie called Catholickes And called the Chaire of Rome the Chaire of pestilence and called the Catholicke Church an Harlott and an Adulteresse and chose rather to suffer all kindes of persecutions and false Martirdomes then to communicate with her If I persecute saith Saint AVGVSTINE iustlie him that detracts from his neighbour why should I not persecute him that detracts from the Church of Christ and saith this is not shee but this is an hatlott And againe If the punishment and not the cause made Martirdome heauen should be full of your martirs And against whom contrariwise the Catholickes in matter of doctrine had not one passage of scripture for them but only the Apostolicall vnwritten tradition as S. AVGVSTINE
2. Decemb. 1631 F. Leander de S. Martino sacrae Theologiae Doctor Hebraeae linguae in alma Academia Duacena professor Regius Benedictinorum conuentus S. Gregorij Angliae Prior. THE LETTER OF THE LORD CARDINALL OF PERRON SENT TO MONSIEVR CASAVBON INTO ENGLAND SIR the letter that you deliuered to Monsieur de la Bodery was deliuered to me by him euen as I was vpon my departure for a voyage into Normandy and since my returne from thence I haue bene almost perpetuallie sicke which hindered me from answering with more speede Now that my disease begins to be at some truce with me I will paie the arrerages of this delaie and will first thanke you for the good office that you haue done me in shewing the letter I writt to you to the most excellent king of great Brittaine and in procuring me an interest in his fauour I will striue so to husband it by my humble seruice s and particularlye by celebrating his prayses which is the only fruite that good and vertuons kinges such as hee doe gather from allthe labours and thornie cares that the burden of a kingdome loades them with as his maiestie shall haue noe cause to be sorrie that it be declared to after ages how he hath honord mee with his well wishes ād how I haue had his 〈◊〉 in reuerence and admiration As for the translation of the verses of Virgill whereof you writt to me that he desires a Copie that which I sent you being lost I deferr yet for some daies to acquit myself of that dutie because I haue put it to the presse with the addition of a part of the fowrth which I haue ended expresselie for his maiestie sake to inlarge my presēte to him As soone as those few Copies which are in doing shall be finished I will not faile to addresse one of them to you to offer vp to him on my behalfe The third point of your letter yet remaines which is that his Maiestie was astonisht at those wordes in my letter That excepting the title of Catholicke I knew nothing wanting in him to expresse the figure of a perfect and compleate Prince and that he pretendes that since he beleeues all thinges that the Ancientes haue with an vnanimous consent esteemed necessarie to saluation the title of Catholique cannot bee donied him Now as on the one side I can not but greatlie praise his maiesties pietie and Christian humilitie in not disdayning to submitt his iudgement adorned with so manie lightes naturall ād acquired to that of those cleare beames of antiquitie imitating therein the wisdome of that great Emperor Thodosius who thought there was noebetter meanes to agree the dissentions which disturbed the Church of his time then to exact from either part an answere whither thy beleeued that the Fathers which had flourish'd in the Church before the separation had bene orthodoxall and that being confessed to summon them to submitt themselues to whatsoeuer they should be found to haue beleeued so on the other side there are manie obseruations `to be made vpon this Thesis before wee passe to the hypothesis which since I Cannot represent to his maiestie I shall be gladd to informe you of them for your particular satisfaction The first is that the name of Catholicke is not a name of beleefe simplie but of Communion also else antiquitie would not haue refused that title to those Which were not separated from the beleefe but from the Communion of the Church nor would they haue protested that out of the Catholicke Church the Faith and Sacramentes may be had but not Saluation Out of the Catholicke Church saith S. Augustin in his treatie of Conference with Emeritus a man may haue orders hee maie haue Sacraments he may sing Alleluya he may answere A men he may keepe the Gospell he may haue and preach the faith in the name of the Father of the Sonn and of the holie Ghost but he can no where finde Saluation but in the Catholicke Church And in the Booke De vtilit credendi There is a Church as all men graunt if you cast your eyes ouer the extent of the whole world more full in multitude then all the rest and as those that know themselues to be of it affirme more sincere in the doctrine of truth But of the truth that is an other question that will suffice for this search that there is one Catholicke Church vpon which seuer all heresies impose seuerall names whereas they are all call called euery one by his particular name which they dare not disauow from whence it may appeare to the iudgment of anie arbiter that is not prepossessed by fauour to whom the name of Catholicke where of all are ambitions ought to bee attributed And in the Booke against the fundamentall Epistle Then to omitt this wisdome which you denie to bee in the Catholicke Church there are manie other things which doe most iustlie retaine me in her bosome the consent of people and nations retaine me therein the authoritie begūn by miracles nourished by hope increased by charitie confirmed by antiquitie retaines me therein the succession of Prelates euen from the verie seate of Peter to whom our Lord deliuered his sheepe to be fedd after his Resurrection euen to the present Bishops seate retaines me therein and finallie the verie name of Catholick retaines me therein which not without cause this Church alone amongst so manie heresies hath in such sorte obtained as though all heretickes would be called Catholiques neuerthelesse when a stranger askes where the Catholicke Church doth assemble there is not one 〈◊〉 that dares shew his 〈◊〉 or his howse And in his treatise of Faith and of the Creede Wee beleeue the holie Church and that Catholick for heretickes and schismatickes call their Congregations Churches but hereticks beleeuing of God false thinges violate faith and Schismatickes separate themselues from brotherly charitie by vniust diuisions allthough they beleeue the same things that we beleeue and therefore neither can the hereticke belonge to the Catholicke Church because she loues God nor the schismaticke because she loues her neightour And in the Booke Of the vnitie of the Church All those that beleeue as hath bene said that ouer Lord IESVS is come in the flesh and is risen againe in the same flesh wherein he was borne and hath suffered and that he is the sōne of god god with god ād one with the Father and the onlie immoueable word of the Father by which all things haue bene made but yet dissent so from his bodie which is the Church that theire communion is not with the whole or is spread in deed but yet is in some part found to be separate it is manifest they are not in the Catholick Church And Prosper his scholler Hee saith hee that Communicates with this vniuersall Church is a Christian and a Catholicke but he that communicates not therewith is an hereticke and Antichrist And for this cause wee see that the Fathers denied the title
PERRONS REPLIE TO THE KING OF GREAT BRITAINE THE FOVRTH BOOKE THE ESTATE OF THE CHVRCH IN THE EAST CHAPT I. The continuance of the Kings answere HAd anie one presumed to alter or disguise euer so little the faith approued by the vvhole world it vvas easie euen for a Child to surprise and discouer in his noueltie him that should bring in a different doctrine and the robber of the truth being surprised all the pastors of the vvorld if it vvere needefull roused themselues vp and being once stirred vp gaue themselues noe rest till they had taken avvay the euill from amongst them and had prouided for the securitie of Christs flocke This vvas heeretofore the designation and felicitie of the Catholicke church but vvhich indured nōt manie ages THE REPLIE APPELLES answered one daie to one of this Schollers that had painted a Venus loaded with pearles carkanets and iewells because thou couldst not paint her faire thou hast painted her rich so though this discription be not adorned with truth which is the simple naked and naturall beautie of historie it is eloquent and adorned with rich and magnificent wordes But S. BASILL and S. HIEROM paint out the estate of Religion in their time in the east much otherwise S. BASILL when he saith To what shall we compare the state of the present times certainlie to a Sea-fight when Sea Captaines chased with the warr and inflamed to the combate set one vpon an other with a violent hate and nourisht with old iniuries And a while after The troubles stirred vp by the Princes of the earth swallow vp the people more horribly then all kinds of 〈◊〉 windes and tempests and a darke and sad night possesses the Churches the lights that God had placed to illuminate the soules of men being banisht from their Seas And S. HIEROME when he writes Because the East striking against it selfe by the antient furie of the people teares in little morsells the vndeuided coate of our lord wouen on high and that the foxes destroie the vine of Christ in such sort as it is difficult amongst the drie pitts that haue noe water to discerne where the sealed fouutaine and the inclosed garden is for this cause I haue thought that I ought to consult whith the Chaire of Peter and the faith praised by the mouth of the Apostle And a while after Now in the west the sunn of iustice is risen and in the East that Lucifer which was fallen hath sett vp his Throne aboue the starrs you are the light of the world you are the salt of the earth you are the vessells of gold of Syluer and the vessells of earth or wood doe here attend the rod of iron and the eternall And the historie of the following ages doth euen the same For when 〈◊〉 rose vp and after he had bene iudged in the first instance by Flanianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed or pretended to haue appealed to the Pope and was againe iudged and deposed in the second instance by him what came of it The Emperor Theodosius gouerned by 〈◊〉 an abettor of Eutyches caused a Councell to be held vnder the title of Generall at Ephesus where by force and by strong hand he caused Dioscorus the Patrō of Eutyches heresie to preside the legates of the Pope for this cause quitting the place fled In that Coūcell Eutyches was restored Flauianus deposed and slaine after he had neuerthelesse appealed from his condemnation to the Pope and the Eutychian heresie was subscribed by Dioscorus Patriarke of Alexandria Maximus Patriarke of Antioch Iuutnall Patriarke of Hierusalem and almost by all the Bishops of the Councell some by their good wills and others by force The Pope againe takes the cause of the faith in hand pursues the holding of a new Councell which was that of Chalcedon were that heresie is condemned and Dioscorus and Eutyches and all his abettors deposed and excommunicated and in Dioscorus steed there was substituted in the patriarkshipp of Alexandria Proterius a catolicke and partaker with the Councell of Chalcedon to Proterius there succeeded Timothie an 〈◊〉 and paracide of his Predecessor who againe sett on foote the Eutychian heresie in the Sea of Alexandria and in Egipt and disannulled there the decrees of the Councell of Chalcedon a while after into the Sea of Antioch there entred PETER surnamed the Tanner likewise an enemie to the Councell of Chalcedon and professor of the heresie of 〈◊〉 Likewise there came to Constantinople Acacius who communicated with Peter Bishop of Antioch and there was installed in the Empire Zeno an Eutychian and disannuller of the Councell of Chalcedon and all the Easterne Church miserablie rent by the factions of those that held some for the Councell and some against it and others neither for nor against it whom they called neuters so longe that after some changes of Patriarks sometimes Catholicks and some times Eutychians all the naturall Churches of Egypt and those of Ethiopia that is to saie all that acknowledged the Egiptian Patriarke of Alexandria haue remained and perseuered still to this daie in the profession of the Eutychian heresie Such was then in the east vnder the Emperors abusing their authoritie the designation and felicitie of the Church and such was the facilitie euen for Children except those that cast their eyes vpon the communion of the Roman Church to knowe the robbers of the truth and for pastors to driue awaie the euill from among them For as for the west the Patriarshipp of the Roman Church hath alwaies had this particular blessing that within the 〈◊〉 of the extent thereof the Catholicke Church notwithstanding the infidelitie of the Emperors had bene without comparison more visible and more eminent as being the Ensigne Colonell and that where to the others ought to haue regard and vnder which they should gather themselues then in the other Patriarkships From whence it is that what S. HIEROM writes in the forme of a historie of former times when he saith to Pope Damasus The wicked children hauing dispersed their patrimonie amongst you 〈◊〉 is preserued vncorrupted the inheritance of the fathers S. LEO seemeth to saie it informe of a prophecie of those that are to followe who pronounces That none of the Patriarchall 〈◊〉 sauing that of Rome shall remaine firme and stable What the diuision of the Empire hath wrought to the diuision of the Church CHAP. II. The continuance of the Kinges answere FOR after the Empire being ouerthrowne and the forme of the common wealth changed new gouernments haue risen vp manie in number different in manners distinct in languages lawes and institutions The diuision of the Empire hath drawne after it the diuision of the Catholicke Church and all those thinges that wee saie nowe to haue serued 〈◊〉 to the preseruation of the vnion and externall Communion of the Catholicke Church haue ceased by little and little THE REPLIE THE diuision of the Empire hath not
of the Church his mother the cursed and vncleane birds shall peck it out Of the exclusion of hereticks from the Bodie of the Catholick Church CHAPT VII The continuance of the Kings answere THE Roman Church then the Greeke the Antiochian the Egyptian the Abyssine the Musco uite and manie others are members more excellent in truth in doctrine and sinceritie of faith the one then the other but yet members of the Catholicke Church whereof the Masseand contexture as for externall forme is alreadie long agoe dissolued and disassembled THE REPLIE AND what shall then become of that his maiestie lately said that the specificall forme and essentiall marke of the Church is truth of doctrine and that there is noe communion betweene light and darknes and betweene Christ and Belial And that he that leaues Christ who is truth it self leaues the Church which is the foundation of truth if not onlie the Greekes Antiochians and Muscouites who are hereticks in the point of the processio of the holie Ghost which the most excellēt King doth with vs hold for an article of Faith which in this qualitie is inserted into ATHANASIVS his Creede and into the Creede of the Coūcell of Cōstātinople as it is read in the westerne Church which his maiestie professeth to imbrace but also the Egiptians and Ethiopians which followe the sect of Eutyches anathematised and cast out of the Church by the Councell of Chalcedon neere twelue hundred yeares ag oeād 〈◊〉 in the doctrine of the person of Christ which is the fundamentall doctrine of the Church and that whereof S. PAVLE saith None can laie 〈◊〉 other foundation besides Christ are Churches and partes of the Catholicke Church A Lacedemonian answered an inhabitant of the Isle of Delphos who told him that the woemen were not deliuered of Child in their Isle but trauelled out of it to be brought to bed and that their dead were not buried there but that they were carried forth of it to their Sepulcher And how then is it your countrie said hee if you be neither borne nor buried there Soe how is it that the Sect of hereticks and namely those of the Egiptians and Ethiopians with whom the Coūcell of Chalcedon forbidds vs to communicate vpon paine of Anathema and of whom saint Iohn himself tells vs If anie one confesse not that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh he is a seducer and Antichrist And againe If anie one bring not this Doctrine receiue him not into your howses and saie not to him well be it with thee for whosoeuer saith vnto him well be it with thee communicates in his wicked workes should obtaine the being and title of the Church that is to faie of the Spirituall countrie of the Faithfull if to be borne in the grace of God and to breathe their first aire of spirituall life wee must first goe forth of their Societie and if to obtaine Saluation and to rest in peace after death wee must first renounce their communion God said to the Church by the mouth of Salomon Thou art wholie faire and there is noe spott in thee that is to saie as for doctrine and conditions of communion And by the mouth of Esaie None incircumcised or vncleane shall anie more passe through thee that is to saie None that publickly professe a polluted or impure doctrine Hee saith by the mouth of Ezechiell describinge the future state of the christiā church I will establish an alliāce of peace with my sheepe and will cause the euill beastes of the Earth to cease Which the Sibilla seemes to haue expressed in these words repeated by Virgill and that sainct AVGVSTINE saith might fitlie be applied to the Church Serpents shall cease swoll'n vp with th'impure blood Of poysenous herbes in their deceiptfull bud And how then should the mock Councells of hereticks which sainct HIEROME calls Denens of wilt beasts whose doctrine he calls the wine of 〈◊〉 mingled witd the gall of Aspes be Churches partes of the Church or how should the Church to whom God hath spirituallie giuē the same prerogatiue thar the historians attribute corporallie to the Isle of Creete to witt that it can suffer noe venomous beast in it that is to saie noe dogmatizing heretick communicate her name and societie with the venemous sects of heteticks Hee saith by the mouth of Osea I will espouse 〈◊〉 in faith And by that of Sainct PAVLE the edification of God is in faith And the most Excellent King himselfe protesteth that the essentiall forme of the Church is faith And how then can the sects not only of the Egiptians and Ethiopians but of all the hereticks which makes as saith S. PAVLE a Shipwracke of faith be Churches and in the Church Hee saith by his owne mouth the gates of hell shall not haue victorie ouer the Church And S. EPIPHANIVS and S. HIEROME interpret those Gates of Hell to be heresies And how then can it be that the hereticall societies into whose communion wee cannot enter without yeelding our selues tributarie to the gates of hell should be Churches and partes of the Church For though vices in manners belong also to the powers of hell neuerthelesse because the vices are but in the persons of those that committ them and not in the communion of the Church for as much as the Church exacts not from anie of her members the condition of being vicious to receaue them into her communiō they shall but conquer those particular persons that are spotted therewith and not the Church of the which God hath said by the Prophets Hierusalem shal be called the cittie of truth and the mountaine of the Lord of Hostes and the sanctified hill And by an other the howse of Israel shall noe more from 〈◊〉 forward be foyled whereas heresie infects the communions of the Societie where it remaines none being to enter into anie hereticall societie without obliging themselues to the doctrine where of she makes profession and vnder whose condition she receaues men into her communion and by consequent makes the gates of Hell victorious ouer the congregatiō wherein shee remaines He cōmaūds vs to hold those that heare not the Church for Heathens and Publicās he forbidds vs then from accounting the societies of heŕeticks which heare not the Catholique Church for Churches and partes of the Church but for Societies of 〈◊〉 and Heathens He saith to vs That whosoeuer gathers not with him scatters the hereticks then that gather not with him gather not but scatteŕ and so their assemblies are noe more Churches but dispertions He cries out to vs by the Organ of saint PAVLE That whosoeuer declares against what we haue receiued should be an anathema Hee wills then that heretickes should be held by the Church for anathema and consequently excluded from the communion both internall and externall of the Church He teacheth vs by the same Oracle that the Church is our mother
intended in deede and not in Right for we doe not denie but that the heretickes belong by right to the Church that is to saie that the Church hath to exercise her authority ouer them and to iudge censure and excommunicate them but wee saie that they belonge not in deede to the Catholick church that is to saie that they are not actually comprehended and contained in the catholicke Church and are not members and partes thereof And it is not wee that saie this but saint AVGVSTINE who writes it in these words And therefore neither the heretick belongs to the Catholick Church because she loues God nor the Schismatick because she loues her neighbour Of the proceeding of the other sects CHAP. XII The continuance of the Kings answere AND it is not you alone that attribute to yourselues this right others also doe the same for at this daie a word the king cannot speake without groaning there are manie particular Churches which beleeue themselues onelie to be the particular people that they call the Church if you giue them strength like the Romans they would alreadie haue done as that hath done and would iudge the rest no lesse seuerelie THE REPLIE WHAT those are wee are not to Answere let the dead bury their dead only wee maie saie their conclusion would be good if their hypothesis were true for if they were true churches euery Societie which should be excluded out of their communion should be excluded from the title of the Church and from the right of being able to call thēselues a part of the Catholick Church for as much as the Church as hath bene aboue said is either one or none Of the perswasion that the other sects pretend to haue of the truth of their Church by scriptures CHAP. XIII The Continuance of the Kings Answere WHAT shall I saie more that there are at this daie many sects which are celebrated the sectaries whereof are most stedfastlie persuaded that they alone see some thing into holie writt and as saieth the Poet that they alone are vnderstanding and that the rest hunt after a shaddowe THE REPLIE HARPASTE 〈◊〉 domestical foole hauing lost her sight would not beleeue it was she that was become blinde but perswaded herselfe that it was growne darke It is iust soe with all heretickes they thinke it is the Church that is become darke and full of obscuritie and not themselues which are become blinde To finde anie thing answered the Pelagians to saint AVGVSTINE when he alleadged the multitude of Authors for the Catholicke Church A multitude of blind persons serue to no vse And by that only his maiestie may iudge how necessarie it is not to abandon nor prostitute the exposition of the scripture to the iudgement of euery particular person since there is not that man that when he will make himselfe iudge of it doth not beleeue himselfe only cleere sighted and that the rest as Homer saith embrace nothing but darknes For the Scripture consisting according to saint HIEROME not in the reading but in the vnderstanding and men not being able to assure themselues of the vnderstanding of the Scripture by their particular Spirit for as much as saith saint PETER as the exposition of the Scripture is not made by priuate interpretation it is necessarie to determine the differences that are bredd by the interpretation of the Scripture to haue besides the Scripture a Iudge externall and interposed betweene that and vs who may secure vs of the true sence thereof and that this iudge should haue other markes and be notable by other externall meanes then by that of the doctrine contested since it is from that iudgement that wee ought to learne the decision of the true sence of Scripture in pointes disputable otherwise questions in Religion could neuer be determined no more then differences in ciuill controuersies if wee should leaue the deciding of the sence of the wordes of the lawe to the preoccupated vnderstanding of the Aduocates and parties that there were noe iudge ordained aboue them and sett betweene the lawe and them to interpret it Of the sence wherein hereticks haue disputed the word Catholicke CHAP. XIV The continuance of the Kinges answere IT is verie true that there hath bene noe age wherein there hath not bene conuenticles to raise Sectes parasynaxes which haue bragged of the name of the Catholicke Church and haue drawne ignorant persons to them by this allurement THE REPLIE THAT the ancient Sectes and Parasynaxes of heretickes haue effected the title of Catholicke it was not to pretend in good earnest that it belonged to them nor to drawe ignorant persons to them by that allurement but to dispute it with the catholicke Church and to hinder least by the possession of this name she should preserue her menbers from being defrauded and seduced by hereticks And euen so not to dispute it with her in that sence wherein she attributes it to herselfe to witt as an Epethete of communion but to dispute it in the qualitie of an Epithete of doctrine For heretickes haue alwaies sufficiently knowne that this taken in the true sence could neither be giuen nor maintained to their Sects And therefore they spake not of this word but either in seeming to mocke and scorne at it as when Sympronion saith to saint PACIAN that none vnder the Apostles were called Catholickes And when Fulgentius the Donatist said that the word Catholicke was an human fiction And that the Donatists according to the report of Vincentius Lirinensis cryed out to the Catholicks Come come o you miserable madd people commonlie called Catholicks or in disguising the sence of the word and applying it to signifie the qualitie of doctrine and not the communion of the Church as the Donatists which called themselues Bishops of the Catholicke truth and to whom S. AVGVSTINE said you are those that hold the Catholicke faith not from the communion of the whole world but from the integritie of the diuine Sacraments For when they suffered it to bee admitted in a true sēce they were as speedilie as shamefullie driuen from it I asked him saith S. AVGVSTINE speaking of Fortunatus the Donatist if hee could giue letters cōmunicatory which wee called formed whither I would c. But because the thinge was manifestly false they shifted from it by confusion of language And elsewhere Wee must saith hee hold the Christian Religion and the communion of that Church which is called Catholick not onlie by themselues but by their Enemies For whether the hereticks themselues and the foster children of schismes will or nil not when they speake not with those of their Sects but with others they call the Catholick Church noe otherwise then Catholick Neither could they be vnderstood if they did not discerne it by that name by which the whole world calls it And againe This Church alone amongst soe manie and soe great heresies hath so maintayned this name as when a
desire of communicating with her in case she would change the conditions of her communion cannot be called communion in vowe but discommunion otherwise there would be no heretickes that would not communicate with the Catholick Church for there is noe hereticke but would offer to communicate with her prouided she would change the clauses and conditions of her communion and would reforme her self to the conditions of his Sect. To communicate then in vowe with the Catholicke Church is not to be hindred from communicating reallie therewith by any obstacle proceeding from him that communicates therewith in vowe nor by anie condition that he reproues in the Catholicke Church nor by being vnited in communion with anie other Sect whose cōmunion is repugnāt to the doctrine of the Catholicke Church For whosoeuer cōmunicates with another sect wherewith the catholike Church communicates not can not be said to cōmunicate in vowe with the Catholicke Church And therefore S. AVGVSTINE speaking of some good people who sometimes are vniustlie excōmunicated cast sorth of the Church affirmes that they cease not to enioy the friute of the communion of the Church that is to saie that they are reputed to communicate with the Church in vow when there is on their parte noe obstacle from communicating actuallie therewith and that they make noe congregation of 〈◊〉 out of the Church Often times also saith hee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 permitts that honest people should be cast out of the Christian congregation by some ouer turbulent sedition of carnall men which 〈◊〉 to them done when they 〈◊〉 it patientlie for the peace of the Church and attempt no innouation of Schismes nor of 〈◊〉 they teache men with how true affection and with how great sinceritie and charitie God must be serued Of such men then the purpose is either to returne the tempest being ceased or if they be not permitted whether because the same tempest continues or whether least by their returne there may arise the like or one more cruell they yet preserue the will to serue euen those to whose motions and perturbations they haue giuen 〈◊〉 defending without anie congregation of Conuenticles to the death and helping by their testimonie the faith which they know to bee preached in the Catholicke Church Those the Father which sees them in secrett will crowne in secret From whence it appeares that those which cōmunicate with anie other Societie separate from the Church and hold anie other doctrine but that which is held in the Catholicke Church who are hindred from communicating with the Catholicke Church by obstacles proceeding on this part and by repugnancie to the conditions vnder the obligation whereof people are receiued into the Catholicke Church cannot bee said to communicate in vow with the Catholick Church Of the equiuocation of termes diminutiue imployed for negatiues CHAP. XVI The continuance of the Kings answere BOTH lesse exposed to the viewe of men and most subiect to 〈◊〉 THE REPLIE THE Poets faine that the Cyanian or Simplegade Islandes which are two Isles in the Mediteranean Sea doe sometimes meete together and ioyne themselues in such sorte as they seeme to bee but one therefore Homer calls them wandring and Pindar animated because they are described so moueable and vagabond The same may be said of the visible and inuisible Church of the Protestants to witt that sometimes they propoūd them as two Churches distinct separate sometimes they drawe them together and make them communicate together and compound of them one selfe-Bodie and Societie For when the oracles of the Prophetts Apostles are produced to thē touching the perpetuall puritie and integritie of the Church and that they are demaunded where all these promises haue bene fulfilled since soe manie and soe manie ages their 〈◊〉 refuge is to frame two Churches the one visible and the other inuisible and to saie that the puritie of Religion hath alwaies bene preserued in the inuisible which hath remained exempt from the contagion and from the abhominations of the visible but that it hath bene extinguished and abolished for a longe time in the visible And then as this ecclipse according to them is ceased and that they come to cast their eyes vpon anie companie which begins to hold visible that which they beleeue their inuisible Church inuisiblie to haue held then they constitute noe more but one Church and one communion of the visible Church and of the inuisible Church Now what other Protestants doe vnder the terme of inuisible Church his maiestie is brought to doe it vnder these wordes lesse exposed to mans viewe and more subiect to contestation by which noe other thing can be seriouslie vnderstood but that when Luther came into the world the true Church was wholie inuisible and not only that she was wholie inuisible but that she was wholie perished For if when Luther came into the world amongst manie Societies that contested for the title of the Church there had bene one lesse illustrious and eminent then she had antiently bene but yet visible which ought to be discerned from the rest by this essentiall marke that in the pointes wherein she differed from them she hath for her the worde of God Where did that Church reside Lett them giue it to vs that wee may giue ourselues to it But if she were inuisible and that before the coming of Luther there were a flocke vnknowne in the eyes of men but knowne to God which held the same doctrine that Luther brought besides that I will aske how the members of that Church could be saued not making anie profession of their Faith since our Lord saith who shall denie me before men I will denie him before God my Father And sainct PAVL Wee beleeue with our hartes to iustice but wee confesse with our mouthes to Saluation This Church then when Luther rose vp had no neede to receaue anie change in the pointes which are at this daie in controuersie nor to take anie instruction from Luther or his disciples but onelie to declare her self and with her Gyges Ring to make herselfe from inuisible visible And to cry out this is my beleefe this was the doctrine that I held before Luther spake Now this is soe farr from benig soe as Luther protests that none before him euer discouered the truth 〈◊〉 the doctrine that he hath declared And all those that came thither perswaded by the preaching of him and of his disciples and without euer bragging of the precedent possession of the same doctrine neither had this sufficed for the same Church must haue said Luther hath not yet passed forward enough hee is not yet arriued to the whole summe of my doctrine For wee know how much 〈◊〉 and Zuinglius haue added to the doctrine of Luther And so there not being when Luther came into the world a Societie neither visible nor inuisible which held Luthers doctrine and much lesse Caluins in the 〈◊〉 controuerted betweene them and vs it must necessarily followe
others haue gone forth and is gone forth from none which is also the marke that S. AVGVSTINE 〈◊〉 it when he saith The Catholicke Church combating against all heresies may be opposed but she cannot be ouerthrowne all 〈◊〉 are come forth from her as vnprofitable branches cutt off from their Vine but she remaines in her vine in her roote in her Charitie And S. PACIAN Bishop of Barcelona before him when he writes Now to knowe whether she hath bene principallie built vpon the foundation of the prophetts and of the Apostles in Iesus Christ the corner stone Consider whether she began before thee whither she hath growne before thee if she be not withdrawne from her first foundation whether in separating herselfe from the rest of the Bodie she haue not constituted to herselfe her Masters and her particular instructions if she haue argued anie thing vnaccustomedlie if she haue formed anie point of new right if she haue declared to her Bodie the diuorce of peace then lett her be esteemed to be departed from Christ and to be constituted forth of the prophetts and Apostles And therefore although the point of the assentiall deitie of Christ deserue to be more cleerelie exprest in Scripture then anie other as the qualitie of the Testator ought to bee more cleerelie exprest in the Testament then anie other neuerthelesse for as much as the heretickes by their malice and subtletie shift off the places of Scripture alleadged to this purpose the Fathers after they had tried all their strength to bring them backe to reason by Scripture were constrained seeing they could not make them yeeld vp their weapons by that waie to chāgetheir battery haue recourse to the authoritie of the Church Behold saith saint ATHANASVS wee haue shewed the succession of our doctrine from father to sonn you new Cayphas what Progenitors of your phrases and your termes will you bringe vs And saint HILARIE Lett vs consider soe manie holie fathers what will become of vs if wee anathematize them for we bringe thinges to this point that if they haue not 〈◊〉 Bishops we are none since we haue bene ordained by them And the same saint ATHANASIVS It is sufficient that these things are not of the Catholicke Church and that the Fathers were not of that beleefe From whence it appeareth that if the point of Christs diuinitie had neuer bene exprest in Scripture they held the light of the perpetuall testimonie of the Church for a sufficient proofe of this article For whereas saint CHRISOSTOME compares the Scripture to a Rule according whereto all things should be squared besides this that according signifies there not against he intéds that Scriptures rule all thinges either mediately or immediately that is to saie either by it selfe or by the meanes whereto it remitts vs as hee testifies himselfe in these wordes From whence it appeares that the Apostles deliuered not all thinges in vriting but also manie thinges vnwritten Now either of these are worthie of equall credit Of the Rules to iudge admitted by sainct Chrysostome and S. Augustine CHAP. XX. The continuance of the Kings answere THese two Rules to iudge the King with the English Church embracing them with an earnest desire pronounceth that hee acknowledgeth that doctrine finall ie both to be true and also necessarie to saluation that running from the Springe of the holie Scripture by the consent of the ancient Church as by a channell hath bene deriued downe to this time THE REPLIE NEither doe saint CHRISOSTOME and saint AVGVSTINE restraine the meanes to iudge of all the doctrine of the Church to these two onelie meanes by exclusion of the third to witt of Apostolicke Tradition since saint AVGVSTINE saith this is plainelie read neither by thee nor by me And againe The Apostles haue prescribed nothing in this yet the custome opposit to Cyprian ought to bee beleeued to haue taken originall out of their tradition as it is in manie thinges that the vniuersall Church doth obserue And for this cause indeede well beleeued to haue bene commaunded by the Apostles though they haue not bene written And that saint CHRYSOSTOME saith that from thence it appeares that the 〈◊〉 haue not giuen all thinges in writinge but some also without writinge whereof both sortes are in like manner worthie of creditt And elsewhere It is not in vaine that the Apostles haue giuen it by tradition to offer sacrifice for the dead they know how much aduantage and profitt encreaseth to them thereby Neither is the question in the disputation which is now handled betweene his maiestie and vs of the examination of the right but of the examination of the fact that is to saie wee are not to inquire by conferring the conclusions of Faith with their principles which of the English doctrine or ours is the truth which is a question of right whose triall besides that it must be long goes out of the listes frō the state of the questiō that we treate of But to inquire by the continuāce cōformitie with the aunciēt Catholicke Church whether our Church be the same Church as was in the time of S. AVGVSTINE and of the fowre first Councells which is a question of fact in which must be handled not what ought to be beleeued but what hath bene beleeued For his maiestie being of agreement that there was an obligation of communicatiō with the antient Catholicke Church which flourisht in the time of the foure first Councells and that whosoeuer was separate from the communion of that Church was an hereticke or a Schismaticke And the question is whether I might except from the praises of his maiestie the title of Catholicke which is the first cause of this comparison consisting in the knowing not whether the Church of those ages had beleeued well or euill which is a question of right but whether the Church of the last ages from which his maiestie or those that haue bene before him haue separated themselues be the same Church by an vninterrupted succession both of persons and of doctrine as that was in the time of S. AVGVSTINE which is a question of fact and capable of being proued by historie alone soe as the subtletie of spiritts can finde noe shift for it now to leapefrom the question of fact to the question of right And in steede of examining whether the Catholicke Church of this time had the same beleefe in the pointes controuerted betweene vs and our aduersaries as the Church in the time of the foure first Councells had to dispute whether the Church of those ages hath beleeued well and with what reseruations and mollifications her beleefe must 〈◊〉 receiued it is to goe forth from the state of the question and to change the order and meanes of the disputation Of the application of the Thesis of this obseruation to his Hipothesis CHAP. XXI The continuance of the Kinges answere THen to make an end of this discourse the
himselfe confest in these wordes The Apostles saith hee in truth haue prescribed nothing of this but this Custome ought to be beleeued to haue taken originall from their tradition as there are manie things that the vniuersall Church obserueth which art with good reason beleeued to haue bene giuen by the Apostles although they be not in writing Was this to pretend to seperate themselues from the Church out of iollitie of hart and without anie cause and neither to blame the faith nor discipline of the Church Of the authoritie of the rest of the Christian people which denied to the Church the title of Catholick Chapt. XXXII The continuance of the Kings Answere THE English haue separated themselues by a cruell necessitie from that Church that infinite Christian people that I may speake as modestly as I possiblie can doe not 〈◊〉 to be the true vniuersall Church THE REPLIE THat the English Church hath bene iustly forced by a cruell necessitie to depart from the Catholicke Church wherein alone the stocke of vnitie doth reside as our very aduersaries dare not saie that the bodie of Catholicke vnitie was to be found in anie other Societie when the English nation deuided themselues from her saint AGVSTINE will not avow who saith that there is no iust necessitie to deuide vnitie And lesse S. DIONISIVS of Alexandria who was much antienter then saint AVGVSTINE who writes Thou oughtest rather to suffer all kinds of death then to deuide the Church of Christ. For whereas his maiestie adds that an infinite number of Christian people doe not grant her to bee the true vniuersall Catholicke Church if these people can shew that there was an other to whom this title belonged when Luther came into the world wee will confesse her not to be soe but if it be not in their power not only to shewe but to faine an other then this must be shee For the Catholicke Church is perpetuall and their contradiction that are departed from her can not raise anie doubt of her title more then the contradiction of the antient Arrians and other hereticks could cause the antient Catholicke Church to loose this title For in that only that they haue departed from her and cannot shew that she hath departed from anie of all the other Societies which are in being they testifie that she only is the true Catholicke Church that is to saie the true stocke and originall roote of the Church from whom all others by their Schismes and diuisions are departed and gone forth Of the testimonies of our writers CHAP. XXXIII The continuance of the King answere AND that maniē of your writers themselues haue a longe while agoe ingeniousliē confessed to haue much varied from the antient in the dogm'as and in the forme of discipline and to haue patched and tacked together manie new thinges to the old manie euill thinges to the good THE REPLIE THOSE writers haue bene such as I haue aboue described as Erasmus Cassander and others who partly in presumption and partlie in ignorance of antiquitie and partlie to gratifie those Princes in whose fauour they haue taken penn in hand haue written thinges which would confound their faces if they were to maintaine them before anie that were versed of purpose in the studie of Antiquitie Of the begging of the principle contained in this hypothesis CHAPT XXXIV The continuance of the Kings answere WHICH is alreadie so knowne to all the world as it is noe longer in thé power of anie to denie it or to be ignorant of it THE REPLIE THIS is to take for a principle of disputation that which is the subiect of the controuersie for not only all Catholickes but also all the Christian Societies in the world more antient then the authors of this diuision and who haue noe interest neither for the one part nor for the other and if they had anie would haue it rather against the Church from which they are separated then for her doe maintaine that all the principall pointes that the pretended reformers calumniate in the Roman Church are of the true faith and of the true discipline of the antient Catholicke Church Of the temporall causes of the separation of England CHAP. XXXV The Continuance of the Kings Answere ADD to this that the Church of England had found the yoake of the Roman Bondage so hard vpō her for some ages past being incrediblie tormented frō daie to day with new vexations oppressions and vnheard of exactions as 〈◊〉 only cause before iust iudges may seeme to be able to free her from suspition of Schisme and as S. AVGVSTINE saith speaking of the Donatists wicked dismembring For sur ely the English haue not separarated themselues for iollitie of heart from brotherly charitie as the 〈◊〉 did THE REPLIE IF it may please your maiestie to call againe to memorie the historie of the Schisme of England you will finde that all those thinges which were alleadged for pretence of the Churches diuision haue noe waie bene the cause thereof contrariwlse that the English Church was more flourishing when this separation happened and the King of England and his clergie more affectionate to maintaine the Faith and communion of the Roman Church then euer they had bene before as appeares by the Booke that he made in defence of the Church against Luther the originall whereof he sent to Rome with these verses such as they are addressed to Pape Leo written with his owne hand Harrie the English King at once doth recommend This worke Leo to thee which publick proofe shall lend To shew which way his faith and friendship both doe bend But that it was the amorous passion of that King who to satisfie the appetite which transported him would cause a iust mariage to be broken and marrie her that he loued his first lawfull wife and by whom he had issue being yet liuing to which the Pope conceaued that he could not with a safe conscience giue consent This was the true and onely cause of all this Iliad of euills From hence gusht all these teares Of the comparison of the English Church with the Iudaicall CHAP. XXXVI The continuance of the Kings answere NOT for feare of the 〈◊〉 which was eminent but did not yet presse them like the tenn tribes of the people of the Iewes but after hauing suffered manie ages after the 〈◊〉 of vnspeakable greeuances they haue finallie shaken from their shoulders that insupportable burthen which neither their strength was longer able to beare nor would their conscience permitt them to doe it THE REPLIE HERE I might content myself with saying that what was ordained and approued by God in the separation of the ten tribes of Israell from the Kingdome of Iuda was the only di uision of State and not that of Religion For God as saint AVGFSTINE saith commaunds neither Schisme nor heresie And by consequence what pretence soeuer is added of present and not future euill there can be noe consequence