speed For the traditions which they mention bee either points of faith or not If they be then by the general confession of all antiquity they must be warraÌ„ted by the scriptures or els we must reiect theÌ„ If they be no parts nor consequents of the christian faith then do not those fathers weaken our assertion wheÌ„ we say that all points of faith must be proued by the scriptures this we gaine besides that the traditioÌ„s which you make the grouÌ„dwork of al your religion as they be not written so be they not necessary to saluation Phi. The faith it selfe is proued by tradition Theo. That doctrine which the Apostles deliuered by word of mouth the very same they put afterward in writing that it might be the touchstone triall of truth in times to come but this is nothing to such vnwritten verities as be different from the scriptures Teach what you wil by tradition so it accord with the written word of God we bée not against it but you may not build any point of faith vpon tradition except the scriptures confirme the same Phi. This is an error of yours which you seeke to bolster against the church The. You giue vs words we giue you proofs this which you cal an error of ours was taught receiued in the primatiue church for a catholik truth except you caÌ„ shew some points of faith which the father 's beleeued vpoÌ„ traditioÌ„ wtout scriptures the world wil suspect that you make traditioÌ„s but a cloake for your heresies Phi. S Augustin often writeth that many of the articles of our religion points of highest importance are not so much to be proued by scriptures as by traditioÌ„ The. You bely so many that it is no newes for you to bely S. Austen Where saith he so Phi. Namely auouching that in no wise we could beleeue that children in their infancy should be baptised if it were not an Apostolik tradition De gen ad lit lib. 10 cap. 23. Theo. But where doth S. Austen write this often that of many articles of religion points of highest importance Of so many high points you should haue shewed two at least Phi. Tradition caused him to beleeue that the baptized of heretiks should not be rebaptized notwithstanding S. Cryprians autority the manifold scriptures aleaged by him though they seemed neuer so pregnaÌ„t de bap lib. 2. cap. 7. Theo. Your heades bee so ful of traditions that you can not report a father without corruptions It is not true that Tradition nothing else caused him to beleeue this against CypriaÌ„s authority he was armed with scriptures reasons inuincible as himselfe both sheweth and saieth Prouoking a Donatist to conferre with him about this errour Ratione agamus diâ—inarum scripturarum authoritatibus agamus Let vs discusse this matter saith he by argumeÌ„t by the authorities of the diuine scriptures And repeating a reason that was expressed in the Princes edict forbidding rebaptizatioÌ„ he maketh the rebaptizers this offer Faciant mille Concilia Episcopi vestri huic vni sententiae respondeant ad quod volueritis consentimus vobis Let your Bishops assemble a thowsand councels answere but this one sentence we yeeld to you at your pleasures And therefore he doubted not to say of Cyprian though otherwise he did honour him very much Aliter sapiâ—t quam veritas diligentius considerata patefecit He was of an other opinion than that which the truth vpon more diligent consideration reueiled And when CypriaÌ„s epistle in this case was obiected he replied Cyprians epistles I esteeme not as canonicall but I coÌ„sider them by the canonical scriptures that which in them agreeth with the authority of the diuine scriptures I receiue with his praise that which doth not agree by his leaue I refuse The general custom of the câ—uâ—ch reuoked him from following Cypriâ—â—s authority though it were great and brought him to the deeper debating of the question but he which sayth that S. Augustine in all his conferences and writinges aleadgeth nothing against rebaptization but tradition may be rebaptized if his christianity be no more than his cunning Phi. For baptizing of infants his words be plaine It were not at al to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition Theo. I see the words wel enough but the meaning of the speaker in this place and the likenesse of the same speach in other places make me to thinke that a letter too much is crept into these wordes as through the iniuries of times and varietie of scribes many thowsand deprauations and diuerse lections were and are yet in the workes of S. Augustine and other fathers not onely by the iudgement of the learned but by the very sight of their margins Phi. A letter to much which is it Theo. You read Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esset traditio I thinke it shoulde bee Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio Esset for esse is a scope in writing soone committed but a matter of some moment in altering the sense Phi. And therefore you may not correct it without apparent proofe Theo. I may suspect it though I take not vpoÌ„ me to correct it but leaue it to the indifferent reader Phi. You must be led thereunto with very good reason Theo. First the very course of the sentence leadeth mee so to thinke Sainct Augustine in these three distunctiues Nequaquam spernenda neque vllo modo superflua deputanda nec omnino credenda The custome of our mother the Church in baptizing her infantes is neither to be despised nor anie waie to bee counted superfluous nor at all to bee beleeued did not meane to contradict him-selâ—e but by steppes to increase the credit of this custome and the third part Nec omnino credenda Not at all to be beleeued doeth rather euert all that went before than giue you any farther commendation to that Tradition For Not at all to be beleeued is as much as to be despised and counted superfluous which is repugnant to the wordes precedent But reading Esse â—or Esset the partes are consequent ech after other in better order and the last is the same that Sainct Augustine in other places doth often vtter in the very like manner and kinde of speech that here is vsed The custome of our mother the church in baptizing her infants is neither to bee despised nor by any meanes to bee accompted superfluous nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio nor at all to bee thought to be any other than an Apostolike tradition So speaking elsewhere of the very same matter he sayth Non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur It is most rightly beleeued to bee none other than a tradition of the Apostles Where wee finde not onely the same purpose but the verie same phrase and force of speech that were vsed before
neither mans speach nor witte can comprehende howe it was done And againe Virgo cum parturit virgo post partum Vacuatur vterus infans excipitur nec tamen virginitas violatur Shee was a virgin when shee was deliuered and a virgin after She was deliuered her child borne and shee for all that a virgin The like we find in sundry other of those sermons Phi. But Heluidius was noted as an heretike by S. Augustine and others for saying that our Lady was knowen of Ioseph her husband after the birth of our Sauiour Theo. The Fathers might reiect him as an heretike for his impudent abusing the Scriptures to build a falshoode vpon them which was not contained in them and if they detested it as a rash and wicked slaunder for him against manifest trueth to blemish that chosen vessell which the holy Ghost had ouershadowed and the son of God sanctified with his presence we neither blame them nor mislike their doings But yet they neuer charged the Scriptures with imperfection as you doe S. Hierome purposely writing against Heluidius vseth the fulnes of the Scriptures as his best argument to defend her virginitie Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus ita ea quae non sunt scripta renuimus Natum esse Deum de Virgine credimus quia legimus Mariam Nupsisse post partum non credimus quia non legimus As we deny not those things which are written so we reiect those things which are not written That God was borne of a Virgine wee beleeue because we read That the same virgine Mary became a wife after the birth of her son we beleeue it not because we read it not S. Augustine alleageth Scripture for it with what successe I will not iudge If neither of these quiet your contentious spirits our answer shal be that when you make iust proofe that this is a poinct not of trueth which we graunt but of faith which you vrge then will wee not faile to shewe it consequent to that which is written You were wont to obiect other pointes of Religion as proued by tradition and not by Scripture amongest which you set the Godhead of the holy Ghost and his proceeding from the Father and the Sonne But I trust by this time you be either stilled in them or ashamed of them Phi. Not so neither For As we acknowledge this article to be most true so we are sure you haue no expresse Scripture for it Theo. Are you well aduised when to spite vs you teach the people that the highest mysteries of their faith cannot be warranted by the Scriptures Perceaue you not what a wrong it is to the spirite of GOD to holde his Diuinitie by Tradition and not by the word of God What ignorance is this if it be no worse to say that Athanasius Dydimus Basil Nazianzen Ambrose Cyril and Augustine in their special Treaties of this very point haue alleaged no Scriptures to confirme the Godhead of the Holy Ghost Phi. We speake not of them but of you Theo. As if in a common case of faith the Scriptures were not common to vs with them If they had Scriptures for it we haue if we haue none than had they none Phi. Expresse Scripture they had none Theo. Doe you plaie with idle wordes in so weightie matters of Christian faith Euident and plaine scriptures they had where the holy Ghost was called God what is expresse Scripture if that be not Phi. They had no such scripture Theo. Had they not Turne your booke a little better you shall find they had Glorificate Deum portate in corpore vestro Quem Deum nisi spiritum sanctum cuius corpora nostra dixerat esse Templum Glorifie God saith the Apostle and beare him in your bodie What God but the Holy ghost whose Temple before he called our bodies And againe When Peter had said durst thou make a lie to the holy Ghost Ananias thinking he had lied vnto men Peter sheweth the Holy Ghost to be God by and by adding thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God These two places the same father vrgeth against the Arrians as very plain scriptures Glorificate ergo Deum in corpore vestro Vbi dilucidè ostendit Deum esse spiritum sanctum glorificandum scilicet in corpore nostro Et quod Ananiae dixit Petrus Apostolus Ausus es mentiri spiritui sancto Atque ostendens Deum esse spiritum sanctum non es inquit hominibus mentitus sed Deo Glorifie therefore God in your body saieth Paul Where very manifestly hee sheweth the holy Ghost to bee God which must be glorified in our body as in his Temple And that which Peter the Apostle saide to Ananias Durst thou lie vnto the holy Ghost And declaring the holy Ghost to be God thou hast not lied vnto men saith he but vnto God Ambrose taketh them for euident scriptures Quod praemiserit Spiritum addiderit non es mentitus hominibus sed Deo necesse est in spiritu sancto vt vnitatem diuinitatis esse intelligas Nec solum in hoc loco euidenter sancti spiritus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est diuinitatem Scriptura testatur sed etiam ipse Dominus dixit in Euangelio quod Deus spiritus est In that Peter first named the Spirite and presently saide thou hast lied not vnto men but vnto God wee can not choose but vnderstand the holy Ghost to be God Neither in this place only doth the Scripture euidently witnesse the Godhead of the holy Ghost but also in the Gospel the Lord himselfe saith that the spirite is God Nazianzen saith these and such like be expresse scriptures and that if you doubt thereof you be very grosse headed They which knewe the only blasphemie which is vttered against the Spirite to be irremissible and gaue Ananias and Saphira that horrible reproche for lying vnto the holy Ghost what doe they seeme to thee openly to professe the Spirite to be God or no How dull headed art thou and without al sense of the spirite if thou doubt thereof or needest farther teaching By so many names so forcible and expresly recorded in the Scriptures the holy Ghost is called Amongst those expresse names numbring this for one of the chiefest and clearest that the holy Ghost was called God as the words before directly witnesse Phi. His proceeding from the Father and the sonne cannot bee proued by scripture though his Godhead may Theo. How then came it first to be beleeued by Tradition or by scripture Phi. Certeinly not by scripture Theo. Your tongues be so vsed to vntruthes that your certainties be litle worth the Church of Christ receiued her faith concerning the proceeding of the Holy Ghost from the father and the sonne not by Tradition but by scripture Saint Augustine saith Firmely beleeue and no whit doubt the same holy Ghost which is one Spirit of the
missarum solemnia The like phrase is elsewhere to be found in the workes of S. Austen Post sermonem fit missa Catechumenis After the sermon the Catechists are willed to depart and Ambrose in the same epistle which you quote Post lectiones atque tractatum dimissis Catechumenis After the reading and expounding of the scriptures the Catechists being demised Where these wordes that you sticke on follow Ego mansi in munere missam facere caepi I went forward and sent the rest away that might not bee partakers of the mysteries And that missam facere is not to say masse as you dreame but to giue leaue to depart the very Latine tongue woulde leade you if you were not more than froward and so may you find the word missa in Leo Gregorie and others and yet they no Masse-priests To maintaine your beades Agnusdets and other consecrated creatures you note where S. Austen and Paulinus as familiar friendes sent eche other cakes and where Gregorie gaue some monuments of Peter Paul and others to Princes Bishops for presents This is not answerable to your enterprise you bring vs certaine toyes hallowed as you say with the Popes blessing and where you deliuer them you take promises vowes and othes that such persons shall keepe communion and yeeld subiection to the Bishop of Rome which is nothing els but the slocking of her Maiesties people from her and the deuoting of them their bodies goods and forces to serue the Popes turne That power to forgiue sinnes must bee holden in Capite of the Pope you produce Cyprian who saith no such thing in that place which you cite but only calleth the Church of Rome a principal Church whēce vnitie among priests in former ages did spring and Leo whose priuate affection in aduauncing his Sea doth carie light credit in the iudgement of wise men is farre from a Catholique consent in the iudgement of all men yet if hee meane as Cyprian and Austen doe when they say Exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur vt ecclesia vna monstretur The beginning of this power came from one which was Peter to declare the Church to bee one Et Petrus quando claues accepit ecclesiam sanctam vniuersam significauit ecclesia ergo quae fundatur in Christo claues ab eoregni caelorum accepit in Petro Peter when he receiued the keyes signified the holy and Vniuersall Church for the Church which is built vppon Christ receiued of him the keyes of the kingdome of heauen in Peter If this be his meaning as it may well be we refuse him not and then ab ipso quasi quodam capite must bee from him the first that had it For caput is either the chiefe or the first otherwise that the Apostles held their function and power vnder and of Peter in capite is a false and erroneous sense flatly resisted by S. Paul affirming that they which seemed to bee somewhat as Iames Peter and Iohn bestowed nothing on him and refuted by our Sauiour him selfe where hee sayth As my father sent mee so I not Peter sende you The rest of your authorities be they scriptures or fathers impeach not vs nor our doctrine but are such as we may well admit without any doubt or scruple Your seuenth and last Chapter hath neither text nor title that is any way preiudicial to vs. We grant your allegations deny your applicatiōs Martyrs be glorious witnesses of Gods trueth their death is pretious in his sight but flatter not your selues you be no Martyrs You bend your selues against God and his annoynted in a wicked and desperate quarell receiue your desertes for preparing the subiects of this Realme by colour of religion to take her Maiestie for no Queene when the Pope shall say the word and to be ready to refuse their allegeance and ioyne with any straunger that will inuade the land This is the whole furniture of your Apologie to my knowledge I haue not omitted one place that maketh any thing for you The rest is a fardle of phrases shadowed with faire pretences and plausible perswasiōs fit to preuaile with worldly minds that neuer tasted the trueth which if we should seeke to repell with like maner and order of writing we should but wast paper and wearie the reader and therefore if you list to discusse the Principall intents of your Apologie more exactly than hitherto you haue I will ioyne this issue with you that notwithstanding all you haue sayd or can say you be neither good subiects nor Catholiques If not I will referre the iudgement of your proofes to the learned and leaue you to God Phi. We know our cause to be so good that wee neede not shrinke from any triall Theo. Then take what helpe you can of your Apologie to defend your selues and as wee passe through your chapters obiect you that which you thinke strongest Your vauntes and vanities I will not answere but onely such things as bee most materiall Phi. Content with that Theo. And as occasion is offered I will shewe that you neither obey God nor your Prince Phi. Do what you can we feare you not Theo. If you thinke any thing worth your paynes in your first chapter you were best begin Phi. Haue wee not good cause to finde our selues agreeued that so many strange nations hauing their Churches with freedome to serue God after their manner in our Country onely Catholiques which in our fathers dayes had all for whom and by whome all Churches and Christianitie arose can by no intercession of forraine Potentates nor no sighes nor sorrowes of innumerable most loyall subiects obtayne one place in the whole land to serue their Lord God after the rites of all other good Christian Princes Priests and people of the worlde Theo. If you meane that strangers haue leaue to professe diuers religions in this Realme you wittingly slaunder vs against your owne conscience for in England the people both strange and liege worship God the father in spirite trueth according to the Gospel of his sonne agreeing together in the substance of one fayth and the right order of Christes sacraments onely straungers are suffered in their Churches to vse that tongue which they best vnderstand as S. Paul appointeth and to retaine such ceremonies of their owne as bee neither against faith nor aduerse to good maners and therefore by S. Austens iudgement goe for INDIFFERENT and may bee borne in Christian vnitie without offence or confusion But if this bee your meaning that where straungers haue fréedome to serue God after the same manner that wee doe you should also be licenced to bring in your Masse notwithstanding it be quite repugnant to the seruice of God which this land receiueth Your consequent is more than absurd because their faith and religion agreeth with ours yours is cleane contrarie Next you sorow to see no mediation of friends no threats of foes
no tumults at home no despites abroade able to withdrawe the Princes hart from liking and louing the trueth but the godly reioyce to see so perfect a mirrour of faith and deuotion in a Christian Queene that shee rather chooseth to suffer your wrongs and abide your reproches with patience than to steppe one foote from that Lord which hath graciously blessed and mightily preserued her person Scepter and people from the iawes of his and her enemies Phil. And where no Iewe no Turke no Pagan can by the law of God nature or nations he forced from the manner and perswasion of his owne Sect and seruice to any other which by promise or profession he or his progenitors neuer receiued onely we that neither in our owne persons nor in our forefathers euer gaue consent to any other faith or worship of God but haue in precise termes by protestation and promise bounde our selues in Baptisme to the religion fayth and seruice Catholique alone are against diuine and humane Lawes and against the Protestants owne doctrine in other nations not onely bereaued of our Christian dew in this behalfe but are forced by manifold co-actions to these rites which we neuer knew nor gaue our consent vnto Theo. Fewe men without your cunning could huddle so many so manifest vntruthes in one sentence No Iew no Turke say you may be forced from his religion If that were so what maketh it for your defence which chalenge both the names and roomes of Christian men and are in respect thereof for iust cause required to performe that in deede which you pretend in woorde and by moderate correction driuen to keepe the Christian faith which in Baptisme you professed For heretikes of al sects and sortes may be compelled to followe truth though infidels might not and so your inference fayleth when you say no law forceth Iewes or Pagans from their perswasion therefore not Christians nay rather if we graunt Iewes and Turkes excusable for these two reasons lacke of knowledge and want of promise certainely Papists being neither void of the first nor free from the last may yea must bee compelled of Christian magistrates for dread of punishment tempered with good instruction to forsake their heresies and forbeare their idolatries wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced As the ioynts of your argument bee loose so bee the parts vntrue For king Darius seeing Daniel strangely deliuered from the Lions denne made this decree that all people nations and languages in the worlde should reuerence and feare the God of Daniel Likewise the king of Niniueth at the first denouncing of Gods wrath by Ionas immediatly with the consent of his Counsel caused this proclamation to be made through the Citie that man and beast shoulde put on sackcloth and cry mightily to God and euery man turne from his euill way Lo Sir two kings precisely commaunding their subiects and therefore readie to punish the refusers without delay to worship a strange and vnknowen God albeit the true God whome neither they nor their forefathers made promise to serue and yet I thinke you will not say they brake the Law of God nature or nations in so doing S. Austen will assure you that the King of Niniueh did God good seruice by compelling the whole Citie to please God A thirde instance for this matter is the calling of Paul first as a Iew and so within the limits of your assertion then strooken with blindnes amased with terror from heauen and therefore compelled to Christianitie by corporal violence y touched Paul neerer than impouerishments or imprisonments wherewith you find your selues greeued Behold saith that learned father in Paul Christ first compelling afterward teaching first striking then comforting and hee that entred into the Gospel constrained with bodyly punishment laboured more than all those that were called only by mouth I might refel your idle florish by the later examples of Polonia Russia Lithuania forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auncient Idoles and receiue baptisme By the long and sharpe warres which diuers good Princes maintained of purpose to compell the Saxons and Vandales to the faith By the sore vexations and afflictions of the Iewes in euery Christian common wealth Al which both old and new first last serue to conuince that Pagans Iewes haue bene forced by rigor of lawes and other meanes to yeeld to the truth without any former promise or farther knowledge which you stifly deny but as I said this is not our question You are no Iewes no Pagans but in shew Catholiques in deed heretikes you were baptized you chalēge an interest in the Church Sacraments by reason of this your first promise and next your outward profession of Christes name you stand in duetie bound and of right may be compelled to serue God not as your owne fansies perswade you nor as the Church of Rome leadeth you but according to the prescript of his word and that tenor of faith which the Prophets and Apostles did teach Phi. We bound our selues in precise termes by protestation in Baptisme to the religion fayth and seruice Catholique alone other faith and worship of God wee neuer consented vnto neither in our owne persons nor in our forefathers Theo. This is your common charme wherewith you bewitch many simple soules bearing them in hand that in Baptisme they vowed to professe your Italian religion which God knoweth is nothing so For in whose name were you baptized Philander In Pius the fift or Gregorie the thirteenth I thinke you were not I knowe you should not no not in Peters or Pauls but in Christes alone Then stande you bound by baptisme to yeelde faith and obedience to no person or place but onely to Christ the first author and ordayner of this sacrament Preach ye the Gospel saith Christ He that beleeueth and is baptized shal be saued What els must you preach what els must they beleeue that will be baptized but the Gospel ergo the preacher and the beleeuer that is the baptiser and the baptised are bound precisely to the Gospel All yee saith Paul that are baptised into Christ haue put on Christ and are the sonnes of God by faith in Christ Iesus hauing one Lord one faith one Baptisme Perceiue you not that in baptisme which no Protestation of yours can frustrate the beleeuers do put on Christ their Lorde not his pretended vicar and are made the sonnes of God not the vassals of Rome by faith which dependeth neither on man nor Angell but directly belongeth to God and his word If thou beleeue with al thine heart sayth Philip to the conuerted Eimuch thou mayest be baptized Now fayth commeth of hearing and that hearing of the worde of God as Paul witnesseth So that when you were Christned you made promise to beleeue nothing saue the word of God whereby faith is engendred and nourished My sheepe heare my voyce
The Scriptures commend Iosiah for compelling the people to serue God the seruant is charged to compell the guestes that were loth to come God hath ordained the sword which neuer entreateth or perswadeth but onlie commaundeth and compelleth to punish falshood and assist truth Now men that bee willing neede no forcing ergo Princes may compell their subiectes that is constraine them against their wils to keepe the faith and communion of Christs Church notwithstanding they pretend or in deede haue neuer so resolute and strong an opinion to the contrarie The Donatistes rather than they would bee forced from their fansies slew themselues yet this did nothing fraie the Church of God froÌ„ compelling them by the rigour of Princes lawes without any respect to their wilful desperation We graunt he that woundeth a weake conscience sinneth against Christ mary to be grieued with that which is good is no weakenesse but wickednesse and he that tendereth or regardeth a wicked conscience by your leaue is a fauorer and confirmer of his euill works To such saith Paul I gaue no place no not an hour for if I should so please meÌ„ I were not the seruant of Christ. We may not for thinges indifferent trouble the weake mindes of our brethren yet this rule bindeth no Magistrate to remit the punishment of error and infidelitie because God hath charged them to suffer no kinde of euill vnreuenged and this is the greatest whose voice they must heare whose will they must obeie though they were sure thereby to scandalize neuer so many both aliens subiectes Phi. Wo to that man by whom offences come Theo. True Sir but an offence fondly taken not iustly giuen entangleth no man besides the taker Blessed is he saith Christ that is not offended at me Where cursed is he that taketh an offence the giuer is blessed for euer We preach Christ crucified a stumbling blocke to the Iewes and wo to me saith Paul if I preach not the Gospell yet doth it bring the wicked to their destruction and is the sauour of death vnto death in them that perish Then as the minister must dispense the worde of truth be therewith offended and greiued who list so the Magistrate may drawe the sworde of iustice to compell and punish such as bee blindly led or maliciouslie bent to resist sound doctrine without any respect what afterward befalleth such ouerthwart creatures If vpon compulsion desperation ensue wo not to the compeller vsing those meanes which God hath appointed and discharging that duetie which God hath commaunded but wo rather and double wo to the despayrer who first framed his conscience to forsake truth and beleeue lies and nowe receiuing the iust reward of his error hath his heart hardened that when good discipline which healeth others is applied as a wholesome medicine to recouer him it causeth or sheweth him to be past cure without any sinister action or ill intention of the Magistrate Thus much for the making and exacting of that oth The contents whereof shall be fully discussed when we come to the place which I named We stand too long I feare about these foolish and impertinent quarels I will passe to your second Chapter as finding nothing left in your first but an action of vnkindnesse against such as call you Fugitiues which name you well deserue though you be loth to beare Phi. That is but your saying which wee little regard Theo. Much lesse neede wee regard your slaunderous and false reports published of purpose to deface this Realme they bee but your sayinges which no good man esteemeth Phi. You fall now to wordes Theo. What else haue you done since we began We be now come to the shutting vp of your first Chapter reuiew the same what one line what one letter haue you proued that hurteth vs or helpeth you Phi. You were not here to looke for many Scriptures or Fathers we giue you the reasons of our departure which bee matters of fact and admit no proofes Theo. If you can not proue them wee neede not disproue them and so let vs end with this and proceede to the next Phi. You answere not halfe that which we haue obiected Theo. You obiect much proue litle which forceth me to neglect the most part of that you haue obiected For when you heape vp idle words that are but winde and raigne ouer your aduersaries with Lordlike vauntes which are better despised than answered why should I follow your vaine humor or bring the cause of Christ to a meere brable or wordes as your Apologie doth Phi. Say your pleasure Theo. Your first Chapter we haue seene what doth your seconde containe Phi. The causes of our repairing sometime to the Citie and Court of Rome Theo. If this be all I will neuer open my mouth for the matter Your priuate actions and secret purposes we can not see wee neede not search Therein you may pretende what you please without any truth and wee beleeue what we list without any wrong Phi. In faith and truth they were none other but to make humble sâ—te for the establishment and perpetuall foundation of the College or Seminarie which his Holinesse had long before instituted in place of the hospitall of our nation there this was one thing Another was that the Gouernours of that College in Rome aboue and of this other now resident in Rhemes beneath might giue and take mutuall direction for correspondence in regiment discipline and education most agreeable to our Countrie mens natures and for preuention of all disorders that youth and companies of Scholers namely in banishment are subiect vnto Theo. It may be this you did but did you nothing else Phi. It was strongly surmised we know that our going to Rome was to procure some matter against the Prince but God is our witnesse it was no part of our meaning Theo. That intelligence was giuen by such as were daily conuersant with you and those articles of confederacie betweene the Pope and others to inuade this Realme were rife in your Seminaries there and closely sent to your friendes here but whether interprised followed by coÌ„mon consent amongst you or only deuised scattered by some of you to strike a feare in the peoples harts to make them the readier for your perswasions we can not exactly say this wee be sure such practises in subiects be lewd seditious Phi. If that informatioÌ„ were true Theo. What reasons haue you to proue it false Phi. Enow The second chapter of our Apologie doth refell it at large Theo. You refell it in deed as your maner is that is you say that you wil without any further proofe or paines Certain yong fellowes say you Fugitiues from their Masters depreheÌ„ded in diuerse cosinages counterfaiting of letters plaine thefts haue of malice hope of impunity and lucre traiterously slaundered you Thus as if you sate supreme Iudges ouer al the world you bring nothing to quite
their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
not admit which they said against others Hee euer doth that which the Arrians woulde haue and they againe saie that which hee liketh And whereas the Bishops in those dayes were wont to be lawfully chosen by the people of the place and sufficiently examined and allowed by other Bishops adioyning and openly created in the church Constantius in steede of the church would haue his palace succeed and for the multitude of people and right of assemblies to elect hee commaunded three Eunuches to bee present and three of his spies or prolers for you can not call them Bishops that they sixe in his palace might create one Felix a Bishop And noting what manner of Bishops the Emperour and his Eunuches made hee saith In illorum locum iuuenes libidinosos Ethnicos ne catechismo quidem imbutos necnon digamos de maximis criminibus malè audientes modò aurum darent veluti emptores è foro ad Episcopatus summisere They sent in their places that were banished yong men leacherous persons Ethnickes not so much as taught the first principles of faith hauing two wifes and spotted with enormous crimes so they would giue mony as cheepe-men out of a market The furious violence that was vsed in the time of Constantius to driue men to participate with Arrians not onely by imprisonmentes and banishmentes but by chaining whipping scalding with fire trampling vnder feete stoning choking and secret murdering such as refused without all respect of vocation age or sexe was so lamentable that no christian hart can read it without teares and it is so largely described and pithily disproued by Hilarie and Athanasius that no man except he be blinder than a bitle can doubt whether Constantius were a wilfull tyrant in the church of God or no. Peruse the places and you shall find proofes enough of that which I say I proclaime saith Hilarie that to thee Constantius which I woulde to Nero Decius and Maximinian thou fightest against God thou ragest against the Church thou doest persecute the Sainctes thou hatest the Preachers of Christ and ouerthrowest Religion a tyrant not in humane but in diuine thinges a newe kinde of enemie to Christ the forerunner of Antichrist I repeate nothing rather than thy doings in the Church because I would open no other tyrannie but that which thou vsest against God And Athanasius shewing the reasons why hee calleth Constantius Antichrist Who seeing or hearing saith he these thinges who considering the rage of these wicked ones and so great iniustice would not deepelie sigh at it Who hereafter will dare to call Constantius a Christian and not rather the image of Antichrist For which of Antichristes markes doth hee lacke Or what cause is there why Constantius should not in euerie respect bee counted Antichrist Haue not the Arrians and Ethnickes as it were by his precept vsed their sacrifices and blasphemies against Christ in the great church at Caesarium in Aegypt As a Giant he exalteth himselfe against the most high and hath inuented waies to change the◠Lawe of God breaking the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and inuerting the customes of the church And since he is cloathed with Christianitie and entereth into holy places there standing and wasting the churches Abrogating the Canons and by force compelling that his pleasure may preuaile who at any time will affirme that these dayes are peaceable to christians and not rather that this is a persecution and such a persecution as was neuer before and no man after shall make the like except that sonne of perdition which is the true Antichrist Howe thinke you did not these Fathers reproue Constantius for changeing the faith oppressing Synods corrupting iudgementes infringing the Canons barbarons enforcing the christians and shortly for subiecting all to his will and violence Phi. I knowe they make mention of these things but yet they reproue him generally for intermedling with Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I hope they reproued him for that he did Phi. The case is cleare they coulde not reproue him for that hee did not Theo. These things which I last rehearsed Constantius did as I proue by their witnesse that chiefly rebuked him ergo Constantius was reproued of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius for these thinges that is for playing the tyrant in diuine matters or as you call them in causes Ecclesiasticall Phi. But Osius saith Medle not O Emperour in causes Ecclesiastical nor do thou commaund vs in that kind but leaue such things to vs rather Theo. You were answered before but that you wil neuer be satisfied Osius dissuadeth Constantius from vsing his absolute power obstinate wil in those things that were then in question betwixt the Christians Arians He saw the manifolde and excessiue disorders of Constantius in forcing Synodes of Bishops by terror and violence to bow at his becke in making his palace a consistorie for their causes and there iudging what his Eunuches would in dissoluing the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and doing all thinges against the Rules of the church and therefore had good cause to saie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis neque nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius ea a nobis disce Enterpose not thy selfe as thou doest O Emperour in Ecclesiasticall matters neither commaund vs in this kinde but learne such things rather of vs and not as you say leaue such things rather to vs. God hath cōmitted the Empire to thee to vs the things of the church as he that enuieth thine Empire contradicteth the ordinance of God so take thou heede least drawing vnto thy selfe the things of the church thou be guilty of great sinne It is written Giue vnto Caesar that which is Caesars vnto God that which is Gods It is therefore neither lawfull for vs to holde a kingdome on earth neither hast thou power O Prince ouer sacrifices sacred things These words put a difference between the function of Priestes Princes shew that neither may intrude with ech others charge which we confesse with a good wil. But as Priestes must teach truth and conuict error that is their office so princes must commaund for truth and punish error because publike authoritie to commaund and punish is not the Priestes but the Princes right where-with Priestes must not meddle Phi. Yet the Prince must learne at the Priestes hande which is truth and which error Theo. If the Priest teach truth and the Prince reiect it the Prince shal answere to God for the cōtempt of truth but if the priest teach error in steed of truth a godly prince hath lawful power to banish the doctrine punish the teacher Phi. And if the Prince saie that truth is error error is truth shall truth be banished and the Priest punished vpon the Princes saying Theo. And what if the Priest saie that light is darkenesse and darkenesse light shall Princes be excused before God for
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
impossible reproueable by all diuine and humane learning which neuer king much lesse Queene Christian nor heathen Catholike nor heretike in this Realme or in all the worlde besides before our age did chalenge or accept You heape authorities and absurdities and terrifie the simple with woordes and crakes of the largest life as if the doctrine were so barbarous and monsterous that heathen and prophane men would abhorre it and when the bottom of your skil is seene and the pride of your tongues spent notwithstanding your often and ioyly profers you neuer so much as come neere the question Phi. Will you make vs beleeue that Theo. Marke the points that wee teach and see howe wide you bee from refuting that which wee defend Wee say Princes onely be Gouernours that is higher powers ordayned of God and bearing the sword with lawful and publike authoritie to command for trueth to prohibite and with the sword punish errors and al other ecclesiastical disorders as well as temporall within their Realmes This wee proue this you graunt to bee good and sound doctrine Of this then there is no question betwixt vs. Secondly wee teach that as all their subiects Bishoppes and others must obey them commanding that which is good in matters of religion and endure them with patience when they take part with error so they their Scepters and swordes bee not subiect to the Popes tribunall neither hath he by the lawe of God or by the Canons of the Church any power or preeminence to reuerse their doings and depose their persons but this is a wicked and arrogant vsurpation lately crept into the West partes of Europe since the Bishops of Rome exalted themselues aboue all that is called God and for this cause we confesse Princes within their owne regiments to bee SVPREME that is not vnder the Popes iurisdiction neither to bee commaunded nor displaced at his pleasure but to bee reserued to the righteous and Soueraigne iudgement of God who will syncerely iudge and seuerely punish both Popes and Princes if they bolster or suffer any kind of Impietie within their dominions This is the very point that is in question betwixt vs of which in your whole Apologie you speake not one woord but cunningly shift your handes of it knowing your selues not able to iustifie your wicked assertion And lest the reader should distrust your silence in that behalfe you followe the woorde supreme with huy and crie as if God were highly dishonoured and the Church of Christ robbed of her right and inheritance because the Pope may not set his feete in Princes neckes and be Lord Paramount of all earthly states and kingdomes Phi. Doe wee mistake your meaning or doe you rather pull in your hornes when you see your selues compassed round with so many grolie and sensible absurdities Theo. What one inconuenience can you fasten on vs for teaching this doctrine Phi. A thousand Theo. You bee better at craking than concluding Proue but one and spare the rest Phi. This Soueraigntie giueth power to the Queene to conferre that to others as to the Priestes and Bishops to preach minister Sacraments haue cure of soules and such like which shee neither hath nor can haue nor doe her selfe It giueth her that may neither preach nor speake in publike of matters of religion to do that which is much more euen to prescribe by her selfe or her deputies or Lawes authorised onely by her to the preachers what to preach which way to worship and serue God howe and in what forme to minister the Sacraments to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which way shee will bee gouerned in soule It maketh the body aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spiritual the earthly kingdom◠aboue Christs body mysticall It maketh the sheepe aboue the Pastor It giueth her power to command them whom and wherein she is bound to obey It giueth power to the subiect to be iudge of the Iudges yea and of God himselfe as S. Cyprian speaketh It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true child of Gods familie is exempted It derogateth from Christes Priesthoode which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holy communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as many partes not communicant one with on other nor holding one of an other as there bee worldly kingdomes differing by customes Lawes and manners eche from other which is of most pernitious sequele and against the very natiue qualitie of the most perfect coniunction societie vnitie and entercourse of the whole Church and euery Prouince and person thereof together It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes disorders It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and what other soeuer borne out of the Realme forainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs there can bee no iurisdiction ouer English mens soules but prooceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Which is directly against Christes expresse commaundement and commission giuen to Peter first and then to all the Apostles of preaching baptizing remitting retayning binding and loosing ouer all the worlde without difference of temporall state or dependance of any mortall Prince therein It keepeth the Realme from obedience to generall Councels which haue beene or shal be gathered in forraine Countries It taketh away al conuenient meanes of gathering holding or executing any 〈◊〉 Councels and their decrees as appeared by refusing to come to the late Councell of Trent notwithstanding the Popes messengers letters of other great Princes which requested and inuited them to the same When a Realme or Prince is in error it taketh away all meanes of reducing them to the trueth againe no subiection being acknowledged to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishoppes Patriarkes Apostles Christ and all because they were and bee forrainers not hauing iurisdiction nor sufficient authoritie to define against English Sectaries and errors Finally if this iurisdiction spirituall bee alwaies of right a sequele of the Crowne and scepter of all Kings assuredly Christ nor none of his Apostles could otherwise enter to conuert Countries preach and exercise iurisdiction spirituall without Caesars and others the Kinges of the Countries licence and delegation Theo. Upon what part of our doctrine inferre you these absurdities Phi. Upon the supremacie wherewith you flatter Princes For all these thinges be consequent to the princes ecclesiasticall soueraigntie Theo. You must tell vs howe Phi. See you not that Theo. Surely not I. There bee two partes of our assertion as I shewed you before the first auouching that Princes may commaunde for trueth and abolish errour the next that Princes bee supreme that is not subiect to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee cited suspended deposed at his becke
Upon one of these twayne if you reason against vs must your absurdities bee grounded The first you can not impugne but you must therewith impugne the Scriptures the best and most famous Princes of Christendome the Church of God it selfe which for eight hundred yeeres and vpwarde embraced and obeyed the Lawes and Edicts of religious Princes commaunding for truth And if you thinke you may say and vnsay with a breath and refell that now as absurd which I before proued and you yeelded to bee sounde and good doctrine take either of our positions rightly vnderstoode for your antecedent and marke howe ioyntlesse and senselesse the sequeles bee that you set downe for ineuitable consequents When Princes commaunde for trueth it is euident they commaund the selfe same thing that God commaundeth or rather as S. Augustine plainly declareth God himselfe commaundeth by their heartes that are in his handes the thinges which no man shoulde refuse Emperours saith hee commaund the selfe same thing that Christ commaundeth for when they commaund that which is good it is Christ and no man els that commandeth by them Againe Marke sayth hee with howe manifest trueth God himselfe speaketh by the Princes heart which is in his hande euen in this lawe which you complaine to bee made against you And therefore hee concludeth when Princes commaund for trueth Whosoeuer neglecteth their commaundement shall haue no part with God for not doing that which TRVETH BY THE KINGS HEART COMMAVNDED HIM TO DOE If you build your absurdities vpon the first part of our doctrine then must you thus conclude When God commandeth by the Princes heart that which is good in matters of religion The bodie is aboue the soule the sheepe aboue the Pastor the subiect is iudge of the Iudges yea of God himselfe and consequently Neither Christ neither any of his Apostles could enter to conuert Countries preach and exercise iurisdiction spirituall without Caesars licence and delegation Well your Rhetorike may beguile fooles sure your Logike will neuer enforce wise men to regard your conclusions Phi. Wee make no such arguments Theo. You must make these or worse The first part of our assertion is that Princes bee Gods seruants and ministers appointed to beare the sword with full commission to command what God commandeth and to prohibite what God prohibiteth as well in matters pertayning to religion as Ciuill iustice You inferre vpon vs that wee make The body aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdome aboue Christes body mysticall the sheepe aboue the Pastor the subiect to bee iudge of the Iudges yea of God himselfe with many like childish and friuolous consequents Let your owne fauourers bee iudges in this case whether we be absurd in affirming that we doe or you more absurd in refelling vs as you doe If it be no absurditie with you for princes to command that which the Pope appointeth them as your selues defend that is your opinion what inconuenience can it bee for Princes to commaunde that which Christ the Soueraigne Lorde and head of the Church commaundeth which is all the power that wee giue to Princes notwithstanding your fayned and false reports in this slaunderous libell of yours to the contrarie Phi. Wee neuer denyed but Princes might commaund that which God commaundeth and in so doing they be rather to be commended for their pietie than to be charged with any absurditie Theo. And wee neuer affirmed that Princes might commaund that which God forbiddeth or prohibite that which God commandeth And therefore you must seeke out some others whome you may persue with your absurdities they touch no part of our doctrine Phi. They shewe what an absurd thing it is for temporall Princes to chalenge supreme power ouer Christes Church in causes of religion Theo. If you take the word supreme as it euer was and is defended by vs to make Princes free from the wrongfull and vsurped iurisdiction which the Pope claimeth ouer them your illations haue as litle strength and trueth as the former for what fond and vntoward reasons bee these If the Pope may not depose Princes and discharge their subiects from all obedience ergo we giue Power to the Queene to prescribe to the Preachers what to preach which way to worshippe and serue God howe and in what forme to minister the Sacraments to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which way shee will bee gouerned in soule ergo wee make her free from ecclesiasticall discipline wee derogate from Christes Priesthoode and open the gap to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders ergo there can bee no iurisdiction ouer English mens soules but proceeding and depending of her wee keepe the Realme from obedience to generall Councels and take away all meanes of reducing the Realme and Prince when they bee in error to the trueth againe with many such loose and vnsauory sequences Phi. If the Prince be supreme she may doe what she list in all matters of religion and Ecclesiasticall regiment and so these absurdities follow very directly vpon that assertion of yours Theo. That Princes may do what they list in matters of religion and the regiment of the Church is neither coherent nor consequent to our opinion but a wicked and wylie pretence of yours to cause men that can not so wel discerne of your sophismes to distrust our doctrine as false and absurde and in the meane time to conuey your selues awaie as it were in a mist vnespied And as for the wordes supreme gouernour which you wring and wrest to that purpose take the true construction of them as the oth importeth and we professe them and infer duly but one of your absurdities vpon them we yeeld you the rest Phi. What not one Theo. No not one descend to the specialties when you will Phi. It giueth power to the Queene to conferre that to others which she neither hath nor can haue nor doe her selfe as to the Priestes and Bishops to preach minister the Sacramentes haue cure of soules and such like Theo. It giueth no such power to the Queene as you speake of Bishoppes haue their authoritie to preach and minister the Sacramentes not from the Prince but from Christ himselfe Goe teach all nations baptising them so forth onely the Prince giueth them publike libertie without let or disturbance to do that which Christ commaundeth If you see no difference between the commission which Christ giueth vnto Bishops and the permission whereby Princes suffer and incite them with peace and praise to doe their duties your learning is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it is For what a foolish collection is this The Prince permitteth those that are sent of Christ to preach and administer the Sacramentes ergo the Prince conferreth that power or function to them You might as well conclude The Prince permitteth men to liue
breath ergo the Prince conferreth life and breath to thē Or the Prince permitteth her Subiectes to beleeue in God and relieue ech others ergo the Prince conferreth faith and charitie to them Phi. It giueth her to do that which is more euen to prescribe by her selfe or her deputies or lawes authorised onely by her selfe which waie to worship and serue God how and in what forme to minister the Sacramentes to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which waie she will be gouerned in soule Theo. That Princes may prescribe what faith they list what seruice of God they please what forme of administring the Sacraments they thinke best is no part of our thought nor point of our doctrine And yet that Princes may by their lawes prescribe the christian faith to be preached the right seruice of God in spirit and truth to be vsed the Sacraments to be ministred according to the Lords institution this is no absurditie in vs to defend but impietie rather in you to withstande And that Princes may punish both Bishoppes and others for heresie dissention and all kinde of iniquitie by banishing and commaunding them to bee remoued from their Churches which you call depriuing cā not now be coūted absurd vnlesse you reiect the stories of the church and lawes of christian Princes which I before cited as absurd For there shall you finde that Emperours by their Lawes and Edictes haue commaunded Bishops to be iudicially depriued by other bishops actually displaced by their temporal Magistrates as well for erronious teaching as vicious liuing Phi. When you giue princes supreme power in matters of religion you giue thē leaue to do what they lift The. If you affirm that of vs your report is vtterly vntrue if you infer it vpon vs your reason is very ridiculous For what a fond illation is this Princes be supreme that is not subiect to the Popes iurisdictiō ergo princes may lawfully do what they wil. Phi. We say not lawfully but if there be none to cōtrole thē none can let thē to do what they list The. The dreadful iudgements of God not the leud practises of Popes must bridle Princes frō doing euill If they feare not a reuenger in heauen whom they can not escape they will neuer regard a conspirator in earth whom they may soone preuent yet we dispute not what tyrāts de facto wil do but what godly Princes of dutie should of right may do This is it that we seek for therfore you must conclude this or nothing Phi. You giue thē authority to make lawes punish for religion without anie mētion of truth or error The. The oth expresseth not their duty to God but ours to thē as they must be obeied whē they ioin with truth so must they be endured whē they fal into error which side soeuer they take either obediēce to their wils or submissiō to their swords is their due by Gods law that is al which our oth exacteth And yet when we professe thē to be gouernors that word restraineeh thē from their own lusts referreth thē to Gods ordināce For they which resist God impugn the truth oppresse the righteous assist error fauor impietie be no gouernors vnder God as all princes oughtto bee but tyrantes against God not bearers but wilful abusers of the sword which God hath appointed for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well And this though it be not expressed yet is it euer imploied in the very scepters swords thrones of princes For dominiō power maiesty belōg of right to god alone are by him imparted to Princes with this condition to this end that they shold raign vnder him not ouer him cōmand for him not against him be honored obeied after him not before him therefore this quarrell sauoreth not of ignorance but of malice when you say we giue Princes power to do what they wil in matters pertaining to God his seruice We reiect detest that sinful assertion more than you do In deede we say that the Pope may not pull Princes crownes frō their heads nor seeke to master them with contriuing rebellions treasons against them whiles hee pretendeth to depose them In this onely sense wee defende them to bee supreme that is not at libertie to do what they lift without regard of truth or right but without superiour on earth to represse them with violent meanes and to take their kingdomes from them Phi. It maketh the bodie aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdom aboue Christes mysticall bodie It maketh the sheepe aboue the Pastour it giueth her power to commaund them whom wherein she is bound to obey It giueth power to the subiect to be iudge of the iudges yea of God himselfe as S. Cyprian speaketh Theo. I am loth to bring you out of loue with your owne conceits otherwise I neuer saw more boldnes lesse soundnes in any man If we did preferre earthly things before heauenly you might iustly charge vs that we set the body aboue the soule but betweene Princes Priests that comparison is foolish except you thinke Priests to be without bodies Princes without soules which were a mery deuise The spirituall regiment which Christ hath ouer the faithfull in his Church is infinitely before the temporal regiment of Princes ouer their subiects But if by this you would inferre that good Princes may not punish euill Priestes you deface godlinesse and trueth in Princes as temporall and exact wickednesse and error in Priestes as spirituall which is more than absurde As for the right functions of Preachers and Princes if that bee the matter you speake of for you speake so doubtfully that wee can gather no certaintie what you meane know you that as in spiritual perfection and consolation the Preacher excelleth the Prince by many decrees God hauing appointed Preachers not Princes to bee the sowers of his seede messenges of his grace stewardes of his mysteries so for externall power and authoritie to compell punish which is the point that we stande on God hath preferred the Prince before the Priest so long as the Prince commaundeth that which God alloweth And in this case wee make not temporall aboue spirituall as you tricke it with termes but auouch that the same God who teacheth the simple and leadeth the willing by the Preachers mouth driueth the negligent and forceth the froward by the Princes sword which himselfe that is a spirit and the father of spirites hath ordained to that end The mystical bodie of Christ which is his church containeth not only Prists bishops but all the faithfull in heauenly graces inward vertues far exceedeth all earthly kingdomes and yet hath God himselfe authorized the sword on earth in Princes handes to be keepers
all Princes one that shall commaund them and depose them at his pleasure what else is this but a resisting of the powers which God hath ordained â—recting and 〈◊〉 in the Church of Christ without authoritie that vnder the couert of binding and feeding shall make him-selfe Lorde of all kingdomes and countries Phi. Supreme is the worde that wee most impugne Theo. And Supreme is the worde which you shall neuer ouerthrow being a plaine and manifest deduction out of the wordes of S. Paul Let euerie soule saith hee bee subiect to the superiour Powers If all men must be subiect to them ergo they be superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Consult both your Seminaries and refell this one sequele if you can marie cauill not as your Apologie doeth that Supreme bringeth Christ and his Sainctes in subiection to Princes The Apostle speaketh of mortall men and so doe wee And in comparison with them if Sainct Pauls words be true that euery soule must be subiect to Princes as vnto Superiours our consequent is irrefutable that Princes be supreme Phi. S. Paul maketh them superiours ouer all persons but not ouer all thinges Theo. That distinction is ours not yours we did euer interprete supreme for superiour to all men within their dominions Phi. And so wee graunt them to bee but not in all thinges For in temporall thinges they be superiours to all men in spirituall they bee not Theo. That restraint commeth too late The holy Ghost charging you to be subiect to them simply without addition it passeth your reach to limit in what thinges you will and in what thinges you will not be subiect Againe wee haue inuinciblie proued and you haue clearely confessed that Princes may commaunde for trueth and that they beare the sworde for the perfect obseruation and execution of Gods lawe and publike defence of the faith and Cannons of the Church which bee thinges not temporall but spirituall and out of all question where they may by Gods law command all men must obey them not onely for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Lastly what better proofe can you wish that in all thinges they bee superiours to all men than that their sworde may not bee resisted for any temporall or spirituall cause but must bee rather indured with meekenes reuerence though they persecute truth shew themselues enemies to God and his church For so the Lord in his owne person taught vs his Apostles after him in their writings sufferings followed the same course Phi. Had Heathen tyrantes lawfull power ouer Christ and his Apostles in spirituall thinges Theo. Lawfull power of the sworde to rewarde and punish they had ouer Christ and his Apostles in thinges and causes spiritual The Lord of grace and life being deliuered by the Priests to the Magistrate for blasphemie which is a spirituall crime refused not the iudge but submitting him-selfe to the Princes Deputie confessed Pilates power ouer him to bee from heauen notwithstanding Pilates sentence against him was wrongfull and wicked S. Paul imprisoned for preaching the Gospel required to be sent to Caesar and to make answere before Caesar concerning his doctrine and doings S. Peter patiently endured Neroes sword euen vnto death for teaching the trueth and warned all Christians to doe the like Let none of you suffer publike punishment as a murderer or as a theefe or a malefactour or as a medler with other mens matters but if any man suffer as a Christian that is for religion let him not be ashamed but glorifie God in this respect They that resist especially wheÌ„ they be punished for religioÌ„ shal receiue to themselues iudgement and damnation for God is then most dishonoured when wee make religion a buckler for rebellion If none must resist that suffer as christians ergo by Gods ordinance al men be subiect to the Princes sword euen in spirituall causes as well as in temporall Phi. To suffer but not to obey Theo. Suffering is as sure a signe of subiection as obeying And yet whom you must indure commaunding that which is euill in matters of religion those you must obey when they commaunde that which is good in the selfe same causes which you heard concluded out of S. Augustine before Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Emperors which are made for the truth of God incurreth a grieuous iudgement And againe When Emperours hold truth they commaund for truth which whosoeuer despiseth purchaseth to himselfe iudgement So that all men are bound to be subiect to the sword in all thinges be they temporall or spirituall not only by suffering but also by obeying mary with this caution that in thinges which bee good and agreeable to the law of God the sword must be obeyed in things that be otherwise it must be indured This then is the supreme power of Princes which we soberly teach and you so bitterly detest that they be Gods ministers in their owne dominions bearing the sword freely to permit and publikely to defend that which God commaundeth in faith and good manners and in ecclesiasticall discipline to receiue and establish such rules and orders as the Scriptures and Canons shal decide to be needfull and healthfull for the Church of God in their kingdomes And as they may lawfully commaund that which is good in all thinges and causes bee they temporall spirituall or ecclesiasticall so may they with iust force remoue whatsoeuer is erronious vitious or superstitious within their Landes and with externall losses and corporall paines represse the brochers and abetters of heresies and all impieties from which subiection vnto Princes no man within their Realmes Monke Priest Preacher nor Prelate is exempted and without their Realmes no mortall man hath any power from Christ iudicially to depose them much lesse to inuade them in open field least of al to warraÌ„t their subiectes to rebell against them These be the things which we contend for not whether Princes be Christs masters or the functions to preach baptise impose hands forgiue sinnes must be deriued from the Princes power and lawes or the Apostles might enter to conuert countries without Caesars delagations those bee iestes and shiftes of yours no braunches nor sequeles of our opinion You see the partes proofes of our doctrine neither draw back nor dally but go to the matter and say what fault you finde with our assertion Phi. The former branches of your assertion might be receiued if it were agreed by whom the sword should be directed We our selues confesse that the Princes sworde should permit defend and execute that which is good in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges causes and iudgementes and repell and punish the contrarie But least Princes shoulde wade too farre or tread awry we would haue their swords guided and if need be restrained by such as haue greater experience and better intelligence in those affaires For ecclesiasticall rules and
Canons be not incident to the Princes vocation and therefore no maruell if Princes be raw in those thinges wherewith they be not acquainted And since the danger is great if they command for error their skil not so great but that they may soone misse the truth why should you bee loth that others of deeper iudgement exacter knowledge whom God hath placed to teach both priuate men Princes their duties in those cases should direct moderate the swordes of Princes for feare least they should be missed to the ruine of themselues and many thowsandes with them Theo. We be not loth they should be directed but rather exhort all Princes to take great care and spare no paines to come by faithfull and true direction in those thinges that pertaine to God For if in temporall matters where the losses are but temporal they do nothing without the mature and sound aduise of their graue trustie Counsellours how inexcusable is their negligence if in heauenly things where the bodies soules of them-selues their subiectes may be lost for euer they serue their affectiōs seek not his wil that set them in place gaue them power to maintain his truth safegard his Church Phi. We then agree on both sides that Princes must be directed Theo. We do Phi. If they must be directed ergo by Bishops Theo. Bishops for their calling and learning are the likeliest men to direct them right but yet your ergo doth not hold It is not enough for them to be Bishops they must also be teachers of truth before they may claime to be directours of Princes Phi. Who be more likely to teach truth than Bishops Theo. I said before they were likelie but your conclusion inforceth a necessitie which you can not proue Many Bishops haue taught lies and seduced Princes in the church of God and therefore not their dignitie but their doctrine is it that Princes must regarde for neither Prince nor people stand bound to the persons of men but vnto the truth of God and vnto their teachers so long as they swarue not from truth Phi. And who shall be iudge of truth Theo. Absolute iudge of truth neither Prince nor Priest may chalenge to bee Phi. Why so Theo. God is truth of God I trust no man may be iudge The son of God saith of himself I am truth S. Iohn giueth this record of the spirit of God The spirit is truth Ye can therfore be no iudges of truth vnles ye will be iudges of God Phi. Who shal then be iudge of truth The. Who but Christ Phi. He shal be iudge at the last daie Theo. Hee shall then giue generall and finall iudgement of all men but in the meane time hee onely is the soueraine and supreme iudge of truth The Father hath committed all iudgement to the sonne and my iudgement saith Christ is iust This strife saith Augustine requireth a iudge Iudicet ergo Christus Let Christ be therefore iudge In earth saith Optatus of this matter there can be no iudgement we must seeke for a iudge from heauen But why knocke wee at heauen when as we haue his will here in the Gospell Phi. They mean that Christ speaketh in his church at this day by his word so iudgeth Theo. And we meane that his word is truth and therefore your Bishops can not be iudges of the word of Christ but they must be iudges of Christ himselfe that speaketh by his word which is no small presumption Phi. Shall not the Church be iudge of the Scriptures Theo. My sheepe saith Christ heare my voice they be no iudges of his voice A iudge of the lawe is no obseruer of the law as S. Iames auoucheth and since the whole church is bound to obey the law of God they be no iudges of the law Inferius est nobis quicquid iudicamus It is inferior to vs whatsoeuer we be iudges of Eternam igitur legem mundis animis fas est cognoscere iudicare non fas est The eternall law of God therefore it is lawfull for cleane harts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Wee must not saith Augustine to God iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it And againe To the canons of the Scriptures pertaine certaine bookes of the Prophetes and Apostles quos omnino iudicare non audeamus the which in any case wee may not dare to iudge And this is the reason there may be no iudge of truth where no daunger of error is And of the Scriptures S. Austine saith Quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est It is a wickednes to make a doubt whether there be any error in them or no therefore there may be no iudges of them but the whole church must be subiect to them and with all humilitie beleeue them Phi. The Bishops be no iudges of the Scriptures whether they bee true or no that as you proue is no doubt and therefore needeth no iudge But in this they be iudges whether the Scriptures be mistaken of others or no. Theo. Then bee they no iudges of truth which is the thing that I first affirmed but of them selues and others which be subiect to errour and ignoraunce Phi. Yet they be iudges of errour though not of trueth Theo. If you take iudging for discerning as the worde doeth often signifie they can not bee teachers of trueth vnlesse they can discerne trueth from errour But onelie God is to limit and appoint by his word what shall stand for truth what for errour With that Bishops haue nothing to do they must heare and beleeue the voice of the great Sheepeheard Christ Iesus as well as the meanest sheepe in his fould Phi. Wee grant you that so you grant vs this that only Bishops bee discerners of truth Theo. A liberall offer You will graunt vs a knowen truth vpon condition that we shall grant you a manifest vntruth Make earth and ashes if you dare to bee iudges of their Lord and maister which is in heauen or deny Bishops when they be at the highest to be the seruants of Christ yea happie be they if they be so much In these things we neither stande at your almes nor aske your consents we be right sure and dare not deny them therefore our assertion is without contradiction yours is vtterly false that only Bishops be discerners of truth For as Bishops ought to discern which is truth before they teach so must the people discern who teacheth right before they beleeue Phi. Shal the people iudge their Pastors you be so new fangled that you say you know not what Theo. We haue the words and warrant of the holy Ghost for that which we say Beleeue not euery Spirit but trie the Spirits whether they be of god for many false prophets are
except it were out of the bookes of faith or who would trust them in diuine causes without some colour of diuine Scriptures But what meanes the Lord hath left his sheepe to distinguish true shepheards from wolues dissembling their habite and theeues pretending his name this is the question that now we bee in Phi. It is And there must wee say bee some certaine Tribunall on earth where truth may be found at all times and of all men that bee willing to seeke for it otherwise there should be no stay for religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to be trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is trueth which were most absurd Theo. A Tribunal in earth to decide which is trueth Whose Tribunal shall that be Phi. The Churches Theo. We be now as neere as we were before If the truth be douted of the church must needes be much more doubted of because the church is the number of men professing the truth And howe can the professours of trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question You doe but wast your breath if you goe not more directly to worke Phi. You would fayne call the Church in question but that you can not Theo. Away with these follies Where fayth faileth the church fayleth and hee that affirmeth your doctrine to bee false denyeth your assemblies and multitudes to bee the Church The supposing your selues to bee the Church when your fayth shoulde bee tried is a fonde and vaine delay Shall that be trueth which you professe though Christ say nay Phi. We say not so Theo. Then suffer those to bee his sheepe that heare his voyce and clayme not his fold vntill you be his sheepe Phi. We do not Theo. Wee must be first resolued which is his voyce before we can agree who are his sheepe Phi. I know that and yet which is the sheepheards voyce the sheepe must iudge and not the wolues The. In deed our sauiour saith The sheepe follow the shepheard for they know his voyce A stranger they will not follow but flee from him for they knew not the voyce of strangers applying this to himself My sheep saith he heare my voyce and follow me The reason went before for they know the voyce of their shepheard So that by the position of our Sauiour his sheepe must be able to discerne his voyce from a strangers Phi. What else Theo. His voyce is his woord his sheepe are the faithfull his folde is his church If the Lorde himselfe referre his sheepe to their exact knowledge of his voyce for their perfect direction why woulde you force the flocke of Christ to the court of Rome there to learne at your handes and vppon your only credite the voyce of their shepheard Phi. We would haue them followe the direction of Christes church in discerning the sound of Christes voyce Theo. And the church of Christ neuer directed any man by prescribing certaine places or persons where trueth could not fayle but only by the generall and constant profession of the same faith from the Apostles downe-ward in all ages and countries Phi. The church commendeth succession councels and Apostolicall Seates as good helpes to hit the right sense of the Scriptures Theo. But neuer as infallible notes to discerne the trueth Phi. The Bishops of the vniuersall Church haue as S. Ireneus sayth receiued with their Episcopal succession the grace and gift of vnderstanding the trueth Theo. You do that auncient father wrong in the place which you bring Ireneus limiteth succession after the same maner that we do noting successiō to be nothing worth vnlesse sound doctrine and holy conuersation be thereunto ioyned His woordes be Wee must therfore obey those Priests which are in the Church I meane those which haue their succession from the Apostles which together with their succession in office haue receiued charisma veritatis certum the sure doctrine or gift of trueth The rest we must suspect either as heretikes or as authors of schismes and pleasers of themselues or else as hypocrites vayne glorious and couetous From all such we must abstaine and cleaue to them as I said which keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with the order of their priestly calling yeeld wholesome doctrine conuersation without offence And shewing what hee meaneth by charisma he sayth Vbi igitur charismata Domini posita sunt ibi dicere oportet veritatem Where these blessings and gifts of God are there must we learne the trueth with whome is that succession of the Church which is from the Apostles and also sounde and irreproueable Doctrine So that orderly succession sound doctrine and conuersation without blame are the giftes and graces of God which he meaneth and the one hee will not haue to bee regarded or trusted without the other Phi. Make you no more accompt of succession Theo. We cōmend succession to exclude ambition and dissention in the Church of Christ and in that respect we detest such as inuade the Pastorall function without lawfull vocation and election but that succession in place should be taken for a warrant of true Doctrine is an error of yours and so palpable that euery Child can refell it For who knoweth not that an infinite number of bishops those orderly succeeding if you looke to their dignitie and not to their doctrine haue beene heretiks And that S. Paul thus forewarned the Bishops of Ephesus Out of your selues shall rise men speaking peruerse things to draw disciples after them And the Lord when he saith Beware of false prophets noteth there shall bee prophets by their calling which shal be foūd false in their teaching as S. Peter also witnesseth There were false prophets among the people of the Iewes euen as there shall be false teachers amongst you distinguished from Godly teachers not by office but by Doctrine S. Paul graunteth many to be the ministers of Christ in outward profession and shew which in workes and deeds be the ministers of Sathan Such false Apostles saith hee are deceitful workers and transforme them selues into the Apostles of Christ. The Prince of darkenesse that can conuaie his agents to be Teachers Prophets and Apostles in the Church of Christ can place them in Bishoprikes at his pleasure and therefore the chaire is no sure defence against error Phi. Wee know some Bishops haue beene heretikes but not all Theo. Neither do we say that all were God forbid But by this that some were we proue succession to bee no sure direction vnto trueth If Berillus Paulus Samosatenus Photinus Nestorius Dioscorus Petrus Apameus Sergius Cyrus Theodorus Macarius and infinit others canonically succeeding in Seates and Churches of no small account fell afterward into pestilent heresies that which was often easie then is contingent possible still succession which saued not them from erring can not defend others from the
loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
followeth after sheweth in what sense he tooke the word supreme At this day sayth he where Poperie continueth howe many are there which lode the king with all the right and power they can that there should be no disputing of religion but this authoritie should rest in the king alone to appoint at his pleasure what hee list and that to stande good without contradiction They that first so highly aduanced king Henry of England were inconsiderate they gaue him supreme power of all thinges and that was it which alway wounded me Then succeede your wordes and withall a particular exemplication howe Steuen Gardiner alleaged and constred the Kings stile in Germanie That Iuggler which after was Chauncelour I meane the Bishop of Winchester when hee was at Rentzburge neither would stande to reason the matter nor greatly cared for any testimonies of the scriptures but said it was at the kinges discretion to abrogate that which was in vse appoint new He said the king might forbid priests mariage the king might barre the people from the cup in the Lordes supper the king might determine this or that in his kingdome And why Forsooth the king had supreme power This sacrilege hath taken hold on vs in Germanie whiles Princes think they cannot raign except they abolish al the authoritie of the church be thēselues supreme Iudges as wel in doctrin as in al spirituall regiment This was the sense which Caluin affirmed to bee sacrilegious and blasphemous for Princes to professe them-selues supreme Iudges of Doctrine and discipline and in deede it is the blasphemie which all godly heartes reiect and abomine in the Bishoppe of Rome Neither did King Henry take any such thing on him for ought that wee can learne But this was Gardiners Stratageme to conuey the reproche and shame of the sixe articles from himselfe and his fellowes that were the authors of them and to cast it on the kings supreme power Had Caluin been told that supreme was first receiued to declare the Prince to be superior to the Prelats which exempted themselues from the Kings authoritie by their Church liberties and immunities as well as to the Lay men of this realme and not to bee subiect to the Pope who claymed a iurisdiction ouer all Princes and Countries the woorde woulde neuer haue offended him but as this wylye foxe framed his answere when the Germanes communed with him about the matter wee blame not Caluin for mistaking but the Bishop of Winchester for peruerting the kings stile wresting it to that sense which all good men abhorre Phi. Do not you at this day make the Queene supreme Gouernour of al ecclesiasticall doctrine and discipline And what discrepance I pray you between Iudge and Gouernour Theo. You may be Steuen Gardiners scholer you bee so wel trained in his methode and maximes Wee told you long since and often enough if that will serue the prince by her stile doth not chalenge neither do we by our othe giue her highnes power to debate decide or determine any point of fayth or matter of religion much lesse to bee supreme iudge or gouernour of all doctrine and discipline But if in her realme you will haue the assistance of the magistrates swoord to settle the trueth and prohibite error and by wholesome punishments to preuent the disorders of all degrees that authoritie lieth neither in Prelate nor Pope but onely in the Prince and therefore in her Dominions you can neither establish doctrine nor discipline by publike Lawes without her consent This neither Caluin nor the compilers of the Centuries nor any other of sound religion euer did or iustly can mislike onely Iesuites their adherents would faine reserue this power to the Pope in al Christian realmes because they be sure he will allowe and suffer no religion but his owne and so long their profession shall not miscarie Phi. The Centurists say Princes may not bee heads of the Church that primacie is not fit for them Theo. That word if they mislike wee stand not for it The holy Ghost hath inuested the sonne of God with it and therefore reason princes euen for reuerence to him should forbeare the stile which hee first vsed most esteemeth And though some defence might be brought for the word as that which Samuel said to Saul When thou wast litle in thine own sight wast thou not made HEAD of the tribes of Israel For the Lorde annoynted thee king ouer Israel and that which Dauid sayth of himself Thou hast made me HEAD of the heathen and that which Esai saith of the king of Syria THE HEAD of Aram is Damascus and the HEAD of Damascus is Rezni and again the honorable mā he is the HEAD as also S. Paul the man is the womans HEAD Chrysostom not sticking to call certaine women that laboured in the Gospel HEAD OF THE CHVRCH at Philippi and saying of Theodosius the Emperor Summitas caput omnium super terram hominum SVPREME AND HEAD of all mortall men Though these and many like places might bee brought to auouche the worde HEAD yet because that title HEAD OF THE CHVRCH rightly and properly belongeth onely to Christ not to Princes without many mitigations and cautions and head as it is applied to Princes is al one with Supreme for it importeth but the chiefest or highest person of the Church on earth and with the regiment of the Church whereof Christ is head I meane his mysticall bodie Princes haue nothing to doe yea many times they be scant members of it and the Church in each countrie may stand without Princes as in persecution it doth and yet they not headlesse we thinke not good to contend with our brethren for wordes and to greeue their eares with titles first abused by the pope and first reproued in him so long as in matter and meaning there is no discord betwixt vs. Phi. Will you make vs beleeue they mislike nothing but the wordes head of the Church Theo. Yeas they mislike that Princes should mingle trueth with falsehood and temper religion with corruption as their priuate fancies lead them which we mislike no lesse than they This is the scope of our speach say they that it is not lawful for ciuill Magistrates to deuise formes of religion in destruction of the truth and so to reconcile truth and error that they may both be lulled asleepe They may not prescribe religions alone they must not ingender new articles of the faith they must not strangle the trueth with errors and shackle it when it is reueiled that they may let loose the bridle to corruption These be the points which they dislike and we be as farre from approuing any such thing in Princes as you or they Phi. If the Prince establish any religion whatsoeuer it be you must by your oth obey it Theo. We must not rebel and take armes against the prince
thou these thinges and who gaue thee this authoritie When Iohn began to baptize the Iewes sent priestes and Leuites from Ierusalem to aske him WHO ART THOV And when hee denyed him-selfe to bee either Elias or the Prophete that was looked for they inferred Why Baptizest thou then if thou bee neither Christ nor Elias nor the Prophete And euen so they asked the Apostles by what power or in what name haue you done this Philand The Apostles commission wee knowe but yours wee know not Theo. You can not bee ignorant of ours if you knowe theirs So long as wee teache the same Doctrine which they did wee haue the same power and authoritie to preach which they had Keepe your competent iurisdictions iudiciall cognitions and legal decisions to your selfe the sonne of GOD first founded and still gathereth his church by the mouthes of Preachers not by the summons of Consistories and hee that is sent to preach may not holde his tongue and tarie til my Lorde the Pope and his mytred fathers can intende to meete and list to consent to the ruine as they thinke of their dignities and liberties Phi. Despise you Councels Theo. By no meanes so long as they bee Councels that is sober and free conferences of learned and godly teachers but if they waxe wanton against Christ and will not haue trueth receiued vntil they haue consented wee reiect them as conspiracies of the wicked which no Christian ought to reuerence Phi. Had you trueth on your side you sayd somewhat but you hâ—ue it not Theo. Then should that be the question betwixt vs not whether the Prince might make Lawes for Christ without your consents or whether the Realme had competent power and authoritie to debate and determine without a Councell what religion they woulde professe For though the Prince and the realme haue doone nothing herein that Gods and mans Lawe doth not warrant yet may wee not suffer you to stande on these quirks to delude God and his tâ—ueth against the which as Tertullian sayth no man may prescribe not space of tymes not patronage of persons not priuilege of places He therefore that defendeth trueth is armed with authoritie sufficient though all the world were against him as it was against Noah when GOD saued him and drowned them for a monument of his iustice to quaile the route and paire the pride of such as after shoulde resist the meanest seruaunt that hee woulde sende Phi. Still you ground your selues as if you had the trueth Theo. If we haue the poorest Preacher in this Realme hath lawfull power enough to pronounce the Pope and all his Cardinals to be heretikes and therefore whether we haue or no must be the question Phi. Wee say you haue not and yet if you had your proceedings in it are disorderly Theoph. You must shew vs some reason Phi. The Prince and Court of Parliament hath no more lawfull meanes to giue order to the Church and Clergie in these things than they haue to make Lawes for the hierarches of Angels in heauen Theo. Will you suffer God himselfe to make Lawes for his Church Phi. What else Theo. And may not euery priuate man for his owne person embrace those Lawes which God hath made whosoeuer say nay Phi. Hee must Theo. May not the Prince and the people doe the like Phi. They may no doubt embrace the Lawes of God Theo. What if some Bishoppes will not agree they shall must the Prince and the people cease to serue God till the Clergie bee better mynded Phi. That is odiously spoken Theo. But truely The case betweene the Clergie and the Laytie in the first Parliament of her Maiesties raigne was whether God shoulde bee serued according to his woorde or according to the deuises and abuses of the Romish Church The prince as also the Nobles and coÌ„mons submitted their consents to the word of God the Bishops refused The foundation of all the Lawes of our Countrie being this that what the Prince and the most part of her Barons and Burgesses shall confirme that shall stande for good there was no disorder nor violence offered in that Parliament as you lewdly complaine but that to publike protection which the Prince and most part had agreed on Phi. In matters of faith the Prince and the laie Lords had no voices Theo. In making lawes they had Phi. True but lawes for religion they might not prescribe Theo. No more might Bishops It is only Gods office to appoint how he wil be serued Phi. Gods wil must be learned at the mouthes of Bishops Theo. They must teach leauing alwayes this libertie to the Prince and people to examine their doctrine and auoide their errours and if they teach not truth the Prince and people may repell them as the Parliament did which you speake of Phi. The decision of truth or heresie pertained not to that Court. Theo. They tooke it not vpon them Phi. Yeas The determination decision and definition of truthes and errours of the true worshippe of God and the false is attributed to that Court no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other generall councell Theo. The simple Rustikes of our Countrie doe not so grossely conceiue of their actes and decrees as you doe that woulde seeme great maisters in Israell For who knoweth not that in diuers realms haue beene diuerse positiue lawes and in this kingdome within our age cleane contrary Parliamentes No man is therefore so foolish as to thinke it neither is any besides you so malicious as to report it that the temporall States of this Realme tooke vpon them the absolute deciding of truthes and errours aboue the four first generall Councels yea the holy scriptures themselues not excepted Phi. What did they then Theo. They submitted themselues and the publike state of this Realme to the word of God which by law they might as well as the same Court six yeares before in the first of Queene Mary subiected this Realme to the Popes decrees and fansies Phi. The Parliament of Queene Marie can not be misliked for admitting the faith of their fathers Theo. Much lesse can the Parliament of Queene Elizabeth be reproued for receiuing the faith of Christ. Phi. The faith of Christ is in question the faith of our fathers is not Theo. The faith of Christ we bee bound to keepe the faith of our fathers we be not Phi. Keeping the faith of our fathers we can not misse the faith of Christ. Theo. What priuilege had our fathers more than we that they could not erre Phi. Aske thy father saith Moses and he will shew thee thine elders and they will tell thee Theo. Shall not we be fathers to our posteritie as well as our ancestors were to vs Phil. Yeas Theo. Then must our children aske of vs as we must of those that were before vs. If therefore we may erre why might not our fathers as
when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse not finding a man in Iudah that did or could vndertake the charge Phi. These were kinges of the olde Testament and they had the Lawe of God to guide them Theo. Then since christian Princes haue the same Scriptures which they had and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them which they had not why should they not in their kingdomes retaine the same power which you see the kings of Iudah had vsed to their immortall praise and ioy Phi. The christian Emperours euer called Councels before they would attempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. What councell had Constantine when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled christian religion throughout the world twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders which he decreed and I haue often repeated What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire Phil. They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them Theo. Conference with some Bishops suâ—h as they liked they might haue but councels for these causes they had none In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes I meane from Constantine the first to Constantine the seuenth there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasticall affaires were infinite and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe generall Councels and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued established and maintained without ecumenicall councels vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted Theodosius as I shewed before made his owne choice what faith he would follow and had no man nor meanes to direct him vnto truth but his own prayers vnto God and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior aunswere wan him to it For entering the Palace and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father Amphilochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by him Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe willed him to salute his sonne to whom the Bishoppe replied that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both Whereat when the Emperour began to rage to conâ—â—er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour the wise Bishoppe inferred wiâ—h a loude voice Art thou so grieued O Emperour to see thy sonne neglected and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him Assure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Sauiour and deliuerer Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted instructed somtimes by Marchaunts sometimes by women most times by the single perswasioÌ„ of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life wheÌ„ it was first offered them and neglecting your number of voices consent of Priestes competent courts as friuolous exceptioÌ„s against God dangerous lets to their saluation Frumentius a christian child taken prisoner in India the farther and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the nonage of the king carefully sought for such as were christians among the Romane Merchants and gaue them most free power to haue assemblies in euery place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite and exhorting them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers And within short time he built a Church brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith and ioyned with them The king of Iberia neere Pontus when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in only by thinking and calling on Christ whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife sent for the woman and desired to learne the manner of her religion and promised after that neuer to worship any other God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might admonished him to build a church and described the forme how it must be done Whereupon the king calling the people of the whole nation together told them what had befallen the Queene and him and taught them the faith and became as it were the Apostle of his nation though hee were not yet baptized The examples of England France other couÌ„tries are innumerable where kings coÌ„monwealths at the preaching of one man haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings And therefore ech Prince people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God Christ his Son notwithstanding twentie Bishops as in our case or if you will twentie thowsand Bishops should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God by pretence of humane reason and order Phi. Their examples and yours are not like They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed you doe not Theo. They know not what the church of christ ment when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chriâ—â— they respected not the countenaunces of men but the promises of God when they first beleeued And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals decrees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance you would remember that the church her selâ— was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission Phi. The Apostles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges Theo. What was it Phi. We ought rather to obey God than men Theo. Was that authoritie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes Phi. Most sufficient Theo. And the truth of God chaungeth not neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time Phi. By no means Theo. Then this must only be the question betwixt vs whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth If the
fastned on the Apostles and Churches of Christ against al trueth the legates of Adrian in this very Synode conuince of a manifest and mightie corruption in the wordes that be most materiall for your purpose Phi. Did the legates of Adrian contradict their masters allegation Theo. The same place being rehearsed by Demetrius a Notarie out of the booke it selfe which the legates of Rome offered in the councel sounded farre otherwise than Adrian had cited it For where Adrian in his letters alleaged Hoc enim traditum nobis ab Apostolis non est prohibendum This being deliuered vs by the Apostles must not be prohibited the booke which they read had Hoc enim nobis a sanctis Apostolis non est prohibitum this is not forbidden vs by the Apostles It is one thing to say The Apostles did deliuer it an other to say The Apostles did not prohibite it Betweene these two reports if you weigh them wâ—ll you shall finde good difference Phi. If you like not the former reading take the latter and that in sight is true For the Apostles in particular woordes did not prohibite the making and worshipping of holy Images Theo. They needed not God by his Lawe long before had doone it very sufficiently and that standing in full force there needed no newe prohibition since no authoritie coulde bee greater than his who had already forbidden it And yet by your leaue the Apostles did not onely propose the whole Lawe of God as holy iust and good but they namely touch the seconde precept which wee reason of Saint Paul confessing the Iewes did well according to the Lawe to abhorre Idoles and that the Gentiles were giuen ouer to their vile affections for turning the glorie of God to the Image of a man and S. Iohn requiring all christians to beware the like in sayâ—ng Babes keepe your selues from Idoles Phi. FroÌ„ idoles but not from images Theo. An Image made with hands if it be set vp to God himselfe worshipped is an idole as I haue proued therfore you must either renouÌ„ce your adoring of images which your forged Basil would establish or else suffer theÌ„ to stand for Idoles from which S. Iohn deterreth vs. Phi. S. Augustine saith it is not an Idole except it bâ— Dei falsi alieni simulachrum the image of a false strange God And in that respect you do the Images of Christ his Saints great wrong to call them idoles Theo. S. Augustine in that place disputeth how Gedeons Ephod should be said in the scripture to be fornication in the people the destruction of Gedeons house since it was as he thought no likenes of any thing against the lawe but an imitation of the Priests apparell prescribed in the Law And albeit to interprete himself what he ment when he said it was no idole he addeth by way of explicatioÌ„ that is no shape of any false or strange God yet doth he not limit the word to that continual vse but rather granteth as his conclusioÌ„ sheweth that there were mo kindes of Idoles that this though it were a garment in the law not an Image against the law yet was it in sort an Idole so his words import FactuÌ„ est Gedeon domini eius in scandolum quia hoc quoddaÌ„ genus Idoli quodaÌ„modo erat This was the ruine of Gedeon his house because it was in some sense a kind of idole Tertullian wil tel you the word is general noteth the likenes or shape of any thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 graecè formam sonat ab â—oper diminutionem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aequé apud nos formulam fecit Igitur omnis forma vel formula Idolum se dici exposcit This word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke signifieth a shape whence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is deriued as a diminutiue and with vs signifieth any likenes therefore euery shape or likenes may wel bee called an Idole Isidor repeating Tertullians words as worth the noting addeth of his owne Idolum est simulachrum quod humana effigie factum consecratum est An Idole is an Image made after the shape of a man and dedicated vnto some religious vse Philand Nay dedicated vnto some false God and then it is rightly an Idole Theoph. But Isidore sayth generally that an image consecrated is an idole and consecration is the addicting of any thing to holy and diuine vses Phi. That is not Isidores meaning Theo. Those be Isidores words Phi. You heard S. Augustine say it must bee the Image of a false GOD. Theo. S. Augustine doth not tie the word to that signification as you heard by his owne confession and yet if you take false and straunge Gods as S. Augustine doeth your adoration of painted and carued Images will prooue them to bee false Christes and your selues to bee worshippers of false Goddes For if you worshippe Christ not after his will but after your conceite you woorshippe nowe not Christ but the fiction and imagination of your own heartes and that is a false Christ as Saint Augustine learnedly and truely teacheth Quisquis talem cogitat Deum qualis non est Deus alienum Deum vtique falsum in cogitatione portat Whosoeuer supposeth God to bee that hee is not beareth a straunge and false GOD in his cogitation This else-where hee calleth the Idole of the heart not onely in Pagans but also in Christians Of the false fansies that Pagans had of GOD hee sayth Prius id agimus vt Idola in eorum cordibus confringamus The first thing that wee labour is to breake downe those Idoles in their heartes Of the wrong imaginations of christians hee saith Quae omnia Idola cordis sunt all which are Idoles of the heart Phi. A false opinion of his essence is an Idole in the heart of man Theo. And so is a wrong perswasion of his will or woorship Hierom sayth Vsque hodie in domo Dei quae interpretatur ecclesia siue in corde animaque credentium ponitur Idolum quando nouum dogma constituitur Euen to this present day an Idole is set vp in the house of God which is interpreted to be the Church or else in the hearts and soules of the beleeuers when a newe point of Doctrine is deuised And therefore generally resolueth of all errors Quod omne dogma contrarium veritati adoret opera manuum suarum constituat Idola in terra sua that euery opinion repugnant to truth worshippeth the works of his own hands and erecteth an Idole in the land where it is By the workes of their owne hands hee meaneth the deuises of their hearts as else where he sheweth Haeretici perdito mentis iudicio adorant Idola quae de corde suo finxerunt Heretikes with their wicked resolution of mynd or else void of sense and feeling of mynde adore the Idoles which they haue framed in
they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
it or recall you backe from your enterprise is sacrilege Woe bee to you that call good euill and euill good which set darkenesse for light and light for darkenesse and put bitter for sweete and sweete for bitter Woe bee to you that are so wise in your owne eyes and so prudent in your owne conceites that you preferre your owne Counsell before the wisedome of God Philand Nay you preferre your wittes before the whole Church of GOD you woulde not other-wise take vppon you to controle your forefathers and teachers in such sort as you doe Theoph. If they forsooke their fathers yea GOD him-selfe why shoulde wee not renounce them rather as parricides than resemblance of their auncestours Philand They were Catholikes and so are wee Theoph. You leaue the steppes both of Christ and his Church and yet you must and will bee catholikes Philand Wee followe them better than you doe Theoph. So it appeareth by your halfe communion which they condemned for sacrilege and you embrace for Religion Phi. Here is such a stirre about eating and drinking as though all consisted therein and in the meane while you neglect and abolish the holy and vnbloody sacrifice which is farre more Catholike than your communion Theo. You neede not make so light of eating and drinking at the Lordes table There depende greater promises and dueties on that than on your vnbloody sacrificing the sonne of God As often as yee shall eate this breade and drinke this cup yee shewe the Lordes death till hee come Without eating and drinking therefore the Lordes death is not shewed The bread which we breake to be eaten is it not the communion of Christes body The cup of blessing which wee blesse that all may drinke of it is it not the communion of Christes blood If wee refuse eating the one or drinking the other can we be partakers of Christ or his spirit Hee that eateth my flesh sayth our sauiour and drinketh my blood dwelleth in mee and I in him and except you eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his blood yee haue no life in you These bee the fruites and effectes of religions and worthie eating and drinking at the Lordes table shewe vs the like for your sacrificing and wee will thinke you had some occasion though no reason to turne the Lords Supper into an offering Philand This one Sacrifice hath succeeded all other and fulfilled all other differences of Sacrifices and hath the force and vertue of all other to be offered for all persons and causes that the others for the lyuing and the dead for sinnes and for thankesgiuing and for what other necessitie soeuer of body or soule Bee not these as great and good effectes of our Sacrifice as those which you nowe rehearsed for eating and drinking at the Altar Theo. They bee great if you had as good authoritie for the one as wee haue for the other Philand Wee haue better Theo. Wee must giue you leaue to say so but you shall giue vs leaue not to beleeue you Phi. All the fathers with one consent stand on our side for the Sacrifice Theoph. Were it so that yet is many degrees beneath the credite of our conclusion You bring vs the speaches of men wee bring you the woorde of God I trust you will aguise some difference betwixt them Phi. As though wee coulde not bring you Scriptures as well as fathers for the sacrifice of the Masse Melchisedec by his oblation in bread and wyne did properly and most singularly prefigurate this office of Christes eternall Priesthoode and sacrificing himselfe vnder the formes of breadâ— and wyne which shall contynue in the Church throughout all Christian Nations in steede of all the offeringes of Aarons Priesthood as the Prophet Malachie did foretell as Saint Cyprian Saint Iustine Saint Irineus and others the most auncient Doctors and Martyrs doe testifie Cyprian epistola 63. num 2. Iustin. dial cum Trypho post med Iren. libro 4. capit 32. And Saint Augustine libro 17. cap. 20. de ciuitat Dei libro primo contra aduers. leg prophet ca. 18. lib. 3. de baptism ca. 19. S. Leo sermone 8. de passione auouch that this one sacrifice hath succeeded all other and fulfilled all other differences of Sacrifices c. Yea in S. Pauls epistle to the Church at Corinth the first and tenth chapter We maie obserue that our bread and chalice our table and altar the participation of our host and oblation be compared or resembled point by point in all effectes conditions and properties to the altars hostes sacrifices and immolatious of the Iewes and Gentiles Which the Apostle woulde not or coulde not haue done in this Sacrament of the altar rather than in other Sacraments or seruice of our Religion if it onelie had not beene a Sacrifice and the proper worship of God among the Christians as the other were among the Iewes and heathen And so doe all the fathers acknowledge calling it onelie and continuallie almost by such termes as they doe no other Sacrament or ceremonie of Christes Religion The Lamb of God laide vpon the table Concil Nicen. The vnbloodie seruice of the Sacrifice In Concil Ephesin epist. ad Nestor pag. 605. The sacrifice of sacrifices Dionys. Eccles. Hieronym cap. 3. The quickning holie sacrifice the vnbloodie host and victime Cyril Alex. in Concil Ephes. Anatâ— the propitiatorie sacrifice both for the liuing and the dead Tertul. de cor Milit. Chrys. ho. 41. in 1. Corinth ho. 3. ad Phil. Ho. 66. ad pop Antioch Cypr. epi. 66. decaena Do. nu 1. August Euch. 109. Quaest. 2. ad Dulcit to 4. Ser. 34. de verb. Apost The sacrifice of our mediator the sacrifice of our price the sacrifice of the newe Testament the sacrifice of the Church August li. 9. ca. 13. li. 3. de baptist ca. 19. The one only inconsumptible victime without which there is no Religion Cyprian de caen Do. nu 2. Chrysost. ho. 17. ad Hebr. The pure oblation the newe ofspring of the newe Law the vital and impolluted host the honoâ—râ—ble dreadful Sacrifice the Sacrifice of thankesgiuing or Eucharistical the Sacrifice of Melchisedec This is the Apostles and fathers doctrine God grant you may find mercy to see so euident and inuincible a trueth Theo. You be nowe where you would be and where the fathers seeme to fit your foote But if your sacrifice bee conuinced to bee nothing lesse than catholike or consequent to the Prophets Apostles or Fathers Doctrine what say you then to your vanitie in alleaging if not impietie in abusing so many Fathers and Scriptures to proppe vp your follies Phi. Bee not these places which we bring you for this matter vndeniable vnauoydable indefeatable vnanswerable Theo. In any case lay on loade of termes You haue made vs so many in your late Rhemish testameÌ„t that now you must not seeme to lack But what if all these places neede
neither denying auoyding defeating nor answering What if not one of these fathers whose works you cite as thick as hops euer spake or heard of your external and real sacrificing the sonne of God afresh for the sinnes of the worlde but they vsing the wordes Sacrifice and oblation to an other purpose you force a priuate and peculiar sense of yours vpon their speaches against their meanings Phi. This is euer your wont when the woordes bee so plaine that you can not deny them to flie to the meaning Theo. In deede this hath beene not the least of Satans sleights in conueying your Religion from steppe to step point by point to keepe the speach and chaunge the sense of the learned and auncient fathers that what with the phrases which were theirs and the forgeries which were not theirs and yet caried their names hee might make the way for Antichrist to set vp his visible Monarchie of error and hypocrisie Phi. This is the way to rid your selues of all obiections Theoph. And the other is the way to drowne your selues in the deapth of all corruption but so long as wee holde their fayth and doctrine which were the lights and lampes of Christes church we can spare you their phrases here and there skattered in their writings you no whit the neerer the trueth of their beliefe Phi. You hold not their fayth in this or any other point of your Religion Theo. The greatest boasters bee not alwaies the greatest conquerours Let it therefore first appeare what they teache touching the Sacrifice of the Lords table and what wee admit and then it will soone bee seene which of vs twaine hath departed from them The fathers with one consent call not your priuate Masse that they neuer knew but the Lordes Supper a Sacrifice which wee both willingly graunt and openly teach so their text not your gloze may preuayle For there besides the sacrifice of praier and thankesgiuing which we must then offer to God for our redemption other his graces bestowed on vs in Christ his sonne besides the dedication of our soules and bodies to be a reasonable quicke and holy sacrifice to serue and please him besides the contribution and almes then giuen in the primatiue Church for the reliefe of the poore and other good vses a Sacrifice no doubt very acceptable to God I say besides these three sundry sortes of offerings incident to the Lordes table the very Supper itselfe is a publike memorial of that great dreadful sacrifice I meane of the death bloodshedding of our sauiour and a most assured application of the merites of his passion for the remission of our sinnes not to the gazers on or standers by but to those that with faith and repentance come to the due receiuing of those mysteries The visible sacrifice of bread and wyne representing the Lords death S. Austen enforceth in these words Hold most firmly neither doubt of this in any case that the only begotten sonne of God taking our flesh offered himselfe a sweet smelling sacrifice to god to whom with the father the holy ghost the Patriarks Prophets Priests vnder the old law sacrificed brute beasts to whoÌ„ now in the time of the new Testament with the same father holy spirite the holy Catholike Church throughout the world doth not cease to ofâ—er the sacrifice of breade and wine in faith charitie In those carnal Sacrifices there was a figuration of the flesh of Christ which he should offer bloud which he should shed for the remissioÌ„ of our sins In this sacrifice there is a thankesgiuing remembrance of the flesh which he hath offered and bloud which the same god hath shed for vs. With him agreeth Ireneus Christ willing his Disciples to offer vnto God the first fruites of his creatures not that god needed them but lest they should be found vnfruiteful or vnthankful toke the creature of bread and gaue thanks saying this is my body And likewise he confessed the cup which is a creature amongst vs to be his bloud teaching the new oblation of the new Testament which the Church receiuing from the Apostles offereth to God throughout the world We must theÌ„ offer to god in al things yeeld thanks to god the maker with a pure mind vnfaigned faith stedfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruits of his Creatures and this oblation the Church only sacrificeth in purity to the creator offering to God of his creatures with thanksgiuing And this we offer to him not as if he stoode in neede of these presents but rendring him thanks for these his gifts and sanctifieng the creature This oblation of bread wyne for a thankesgiuing to God a memoriall of his sonnes death was so confessed vndoubted a trueth in the church of Christ till your Schoolemen beganne to wrest both Scriptures and Fathers to serue their quiddities that not onely the Liturgies vnder the names of Clemens Basil and Chrysostome do mention it We offer to thee our king and God this bread this cup according to thy sonnes institutioÌ„ tua ex tuis offerimus tibi domine we offer thee O Lord these thy gifts of thine own creatures Which sense Irineus vrgeth against valentine but also the very Missals vsed in your own Churches at this day do confirme the same These be the woordes of your own Offertorie Receiue holy Father God euerlasting this vndefiled host which I thine vnworthy seruant offer to thee my king and true God for my sinnes negligences and offences innumerable for al standers by yea for all faithful christians as wel liuing as departed this life that it may helpe me theÌ„ to attaine eternal life We offer to thee O Lord this cup of saluation intreating thy goodnes that it may be taken vp into thy sight as a sweet smell for the sauing of vs the whole world Receiue blessed Trinitie this oblatioÌ„ which we offer to thee in remeÌ„brance of the passion resurrection asceÌ„tion of Christ Iesus our Lord. We humbly beseech thee most merciful father through Iesus Christ thy son our Lord that thou accept blesse these gifts these preseÌ„ts these holy vndefiled sacrifices which we offer to thee first for thy Church holy and catholike c. For al true belieuers c. For al here present c. For the redemption of their soules and hope of saluation Certainely you speake these words long before you repeate Christs institution your Masse-booke doth apparently prooue that which I report if I mistake the secretes of your masse let the shame bee mine What then offer you in this place Christ or the creatures of bread wine By your own doctrine Christ is not present neither any change made til these wordes This is my body this is my blood be pronounced ergo before consecration the creatures of bread wyne keepe their
is God and hath a speciall kinde of operation by the power and grace of his flesh and blood in the sacred mysteries as hee is man vnited in the same person with God And yet these wordes doe not import him to bee in the sacrament Certainely Christs diuine and humane nature were most woonderfull mysteries before this Sacrament was ordayned and all the wordes that your author vseth if they were as you cite them are onely these Thou diuine and most holy mysterie which agree to Christ without any respect of the Sacrament more properly and truly than to your host or chalice Philand Yet they may bee taken as spoken to the sacrament and therefore wee did not peruert them we did but preferre that construction before the other Theo. That is where diuine honour was giuen to christ you deriue it from him to the host Phi. Not from him but finding him truely and corporally present in the sacrament there we honor him where we find him Theo. Your doings we know but Dionysius words haue no such sense Philand They may haue and that sufficeth vs. Theo. But if by them you will prooue so great a matter as this is which we nowe haue in hand they must necessarily enforce your exposition and not indifferently beare an other as well as yours or rather better This answere might suffice if Dionysius had vsed the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you suppose he did but now his text is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But O most diuine and holy expiation or Sacrifice reueiling the enigmaticall couerings which are figuratiuely adiacent vnto thee bee opened clearly vnto vs Or if any man like rather to haue it an Apostrophe to a thing lacking life such as the learned are well acquainted with and the Scriptures often vse he may interprete it neerer to the right signification of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and say but O most diuine and sacred rite or institution referring it to that manner and order of celebrating the Lords supper which Christ first ordayned and may properly be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Howsoeuer it is euident hee maketh no inuocation of the host or chalice nor speaketh to them but calleth them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aenigmaticall vayles or integuments figuratiuely adherent or annexed to the perfection of the mysteries Phi. Runne you for refuge to the Rhetoritians Theo. As though the scriptures were not full of the like speaches Ioshua sayd Thou sunne stand stil in Gibeon and thou moone in the valley of Aialon And so the man of Iudah O Altar Altar thus sayth the Lord behold And Esai him-selfe beganne his prophesie with Heare O heauens and hearken O earth Phi. Those were speaches not prayers as this is Theoph. They bee all imperatiue moodes as well as this and so is that saying of Dauid Lyft vp your heades ye gates and bee yee lift vp you euerlasting doores and the king of glory shall come in which yet is no prayer to the doores The moode of it selfe is not precatiue except the person bee such as wee must not commaunde but onely intreate and beeing vsed to thinges without life it sheweth the desire of our heart touching them not any supplication vnto them And therefore you doe not onely the diuines but also the Grammarians wrong when you conclude an inuocation of the Sacrament out of Dionysius woordes because the verbes bee imperatiue For the woord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contayneth the whole action institution and celebration of the Lordes Supper yea the inwarde grace as well as the outwarde elements and Dionysius might say to Christes ordinance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bee opened vnto vs without inuocation of the host or Chalice as well as Dauid sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be you lifted vp to the gates and yet made them no Gods Phi. Yet by this place you see Christ is couered with the formes of bread and wyne as with garments and that is woorde for worde our opinion Theo. Adde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 figuratiuely as your author doeth and then both your reall presence is ouerthrowen and the doctrine which wee teach clearely established For wee confesse that Christ worketh in vs and presenteth himselfe vnto vs in these mysteries as it were in certaine vayles and couerings Which mystically by way of signification and spiritual operation containe and clothe his grace and truth but not really nor by material or corporall inclusion as you affirme and so himselfe expresseth his mynd in this very chapter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The reuerent or venerable signes by which Christ IS SIGNIFIED and emparted vnto vs being set on the Altar Christ is signified and receiued by these signes and figures and to him not to the sacrament spake Dionysius if that were his worke but that Christ is locally or substancially closed within the formes of breade and wine or that hee prayed to the host and Chalice Dionysius hath no such sense nor wordes Phi. To Christ hee spake we doubt it not mary when he was couered with signes and figures of bread and wyne Theo. Signes and figures the auncient fathers doe not take for shewes and accidents as you doe but for substantial and vsuall creatures such as you may not adore Phi. We say no. Theo. Of that anon in the meane tyme well you may thinke that had you beene in Dionysius place you would haue prayed to the Sacrament but his woords import no such matter Philand Why shoulde not hee as well as the rest of the godly The whole Church crieth vpon it Domine non sum dignus Deus propitius esto mihi peccatori Lambe of God that takest away the sinnes of the world haue mercie on vs. Theo. Whome meane you by the whole Church your selues or all the Godly since Christ Philand Neuer aske that question they did as wee doe and wee doe as they did Theo. If you speake of your selues then here is the witnes of your owne mouth that you CRY VPON IT I meane on your host which in substance is a base and corruptible creature O Lorde O God O Lambe of God that takest away the sinnes of the worlde haue mercie on vs. What greater sinne did they commit which sayde to a stocke thou art my Father and to a stone thou hast begotten mee whom the holy Ghost hath traduced for a memorable and yet detestable crewe of Idolaters Whether it is greater to bee a father or to be a God to beget or to take away the sinnes of the world They sayd the one you say the other who can forbid the banes but that you shoulde be coupled with them if not preferred before them as more outragious in dishonoring God than they were Phi. Doe wee not this to Christ and is hee not woorthie of it Theoph. Why then doe you cry on it and not on him Philand Wee be perswaded that when wee call on it wee call on him Theo. So were they that
thinges though happily the Prophetes did aduise them and persuade them To be directed and aduised by others doth not hinder the Princes authoritie The high Priest among the Iewes had his commission from Gods owne mouth the Pope hath not Deut. 17. The best christian Princes haue followed the steppes of the kings of Iudah God himselfe speaketh and commandeth by the hearts and lawes of Princes August de ciui Dei li. 5. cap. 24. Idem Epi. 166. Ibidem Aug. Epist. 50. Religion the chiefest care that Princes ought to haue Cod. lib. 1. tit 17 de veter iure enucleando § Deo authore Authen constit 6. Codic Theodos. lib. 16. tit 4. de religione § Ea quae Legum nouell Theodos. tit 2. de Iudeis Samaritanis § Inter caeteras Valentinian himselfe was content at length to coÌ„maund for truth Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 8. Codic lib. 1. tit 6. NesacruÌ„ Baptisma iteratur Euagrius lib. 3. cap. 14. The right faith is the only strength of an earthly kingdom Idem lib. 5. cap. 4. Niceph. dedicatio operis In Greece the Emperours kept this power 1300. yeres after Christ. Ibidem paulo ante Diligent care of Gods causes the surest proppe of a Princes seat A king of this land making lawes for religion a 1000 yeres after Christ. Lege 1. Lege 6. Lege 7. Lege 14 15. Lege 16. Lege 19 21. Lege 22. Lege 26. â—iter politica iâ—ra erusilem Lege 4 6. The weakest of these places proue that Princes meddle with ecclesiasticall causes which they would seeme to â—ray them from by Osiâ—s wordes And consequently their sword stretcheth vnto spiritual things as well as vnto temporal When papists be posed with these places and cannot auoide them they slip to an other question and cauill about the direction of Princes vnto trueth Princes may commaund for all points of trueth as well as for one He that may commaund for trueth may iustly punish for trueth As lawfull for the Prince to punish Idolaters and heretikes as theeues and murderers Both sides graunt that Princes must punish as well spirituall as temporall offences He that wil punish must first prohibit If Princes may punish prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion ergo they may commaund establish that which is good in the same causes August epist. 50. Idem contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. Papists grant princes may punish for religion but not coÌ„maund yet punishing is a very forcible kind of coÌ„maunding Nothing clearer than that Princes may commaund for matters of religion August epist. 166. Ibidem The word coÌ„maunding which they most auoide is most vsual in the sacred scriptures auncient lawes of Christian Princes Epist. 66. * Nouel constitut 3.5.6.16.37.42.57.58.59.67.77.79.83.109.117.131.132.133.141.144.146 If princes at all may meddle with matters of religion they must needes commaund Or if the Iesuites will not graunt so much let them looke to the places that went before and presently follow They would none of this if they could chose because they hold that Bishops in these cases must command Princes What Osius ment by saying CoÌ„mandâ— vs not in this kinde Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 3. cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 28. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 4. cap. 42. Socra lib. 1. ca. 4. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. Idem lib. 1. cap. 38. Theodoret. li. 4. cap. 8. Idem lib. 4. cap. 7. 1. Tim. 3. Cod. lib. 1. tit 6. Ne sanct bapt iâ—eretur Cod. lib. 1. tit 1. Ibidem § nullus Socrat. lib. 5. ca. 7. Gregor epist. li. 4. ca. 78. LeguÌ„ Franciae lib. 1. ca. 76. Ibidem cap. 71. Chalced. Concil actio epist. Theodosii Valentiniani ad Dioscorum The Prince appointeth what Bishops shal be present at the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris epist. ad eund◠§ Diosco reuerendo The Prince maketh the president of the Councel The Prince limiteth who shall haue voyces in the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris commonitorium ad Elpidum Ibidem oratio Martiani ad Synodum Ibidem epist. Euseb. ad Imperator Nouel Constit. 6. § Maxima quidem These commaundemeÌ„ts of Iustinian bound the Bishop of Rome no lesse than other Bishops Ibidem § hanc non pecunijs Ibidem § â— quis auteâ— talis Ibidem § illud etiam definimus Ibidem § sed neque effusas The prince coÌ„maundeth the whole clergie Patriarks Metropolitanes Bishops and the rest whatsoeuer to obserue his ecclesiastical lawes Nouel constit 16. ad finem Constit. 57. Constit. 123. § exigatur autem prius These lawes exteÌ„ded to all prouinces patriarkes Ibidem § prae omnibus autem illud Ibidem § interdicimus autem Ibidem § quis a vero Synodes called for ecclesiastical causes were tied to the Lawes imperiall Ibidem C. ad haec iubemus All Bishops commanded by the Prince Ibidem § Insuper interdicimus Eadem constit § omnibus vero epis Vniust excoÌ„munication punished by the Princes lawes Eadem constit § praeterea si qui. The Courts and consistories of all Bishops Archbishops patriarks limited as well to the Princes lawes as to the Canons No appeal from the Patriark Eadem constit § Clericos auteÌ„ Euagrius lib. 4. cap. 9. Idem li. 5. ca. 6. Idem lib. 5. ca. 5. Cod. lib. 1. tit 3. de epist. cleri C. si quenquam Cod. lib. 1. tit 2. de sacrosactis ecclesiis C. decernimus Osius words if they were not diuersly answered by vs may not controle the perpetuall practise of Christs Church The cunning of the papists in this point is either to belie our doctrine or to slip themselues froÌ„ the question The summe effect of the former allegations authorities for the Princes power Or if they doe not disproue them Apolog. cap. 1. The Iesuites in their Apologie for all their vaunts neuer come neere the princes power which we defend The Princes authoritie as we defend it The Princes supremacie as we maintaine it Neither of these points touched in the Apolog. The absurdities which the Iesuites muster against the Princes supremacie Apolog. cap. 4. sect 21. 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. Sect. 23. August contra Gaudentij epist. lib. 2. Cap. 25. Sect. 24. Sect. 25. Their absurdities be grounded on their owne dreames not on our doctrine To this that Princes may coÌ„maund for trueth no absurdity can be consequent WheÌ„ Princes coÌ„maund that which is good it is Christ no man els that commaundeth by their mouthes Epist. 166. Ibidem Ibidem Their absurdities must be inferred vppon our assertion if they bring them against vs. May not Christ appoint as well as the Pope what Princes shall commaund To coÌ„maund that which God commaundeth is pietie and no absurditie Supreme as we professe it hath no absurditie consequent to it This misconstering of supreme is the ground of all their absurdities Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 21. Mat. 28. Princes giue no commissioÌ„ but a permission and free libertie without let
The Popes power ouer Princes vsurped Rom. 13. Supreme is a manifest deduction out of S. Paul Supreme ouer Persons not ouer things We may not limit where we will obey the sword where not Where they may commaund we must obey We may not resist them but with reuerence indure them though they coÌ„mand against God and his truth Heathen Tyraunts had power of the sword ouer Christ and his Apostles Christ submitted himselfe to the Magistrate So Paul Peter both did and taught 1. Pet. 4. Rom. 13. Whom we must indure in that which is euill those must we obey in that which is good Aug. Epist. 50. Idem Epist. 166. The summe of the doctrine which we teach concerning the Princes supremacie The Iesuites iestes wherewith they mocke the Reader THE DIRECTION of PRINCES VNTO TRVETH Princes must take good care to come by faithfull direction The right directors vnto truth must be discerned by their doctrine not by their dignitie No mortall man may Iohn 14. 1. Iohn 5. * Iohn 5. 8. De Nuptijs ad Valentin lib. 2. â—ap 33. Optat. lib. 5. ad â—ermenianum Iohn 17. Bishops no iudges of the word of God The church is not iudge of the Scriptures Iohn 10. * Iames 4. Aust. in Psal. 2. * Idem de vera religione ca. 31. * Idem confess lib. 13. cap. 23. * Contra Cresc lib. 2. cap. 31. Idem Epist. 19. ad Hieronym Iudging taken for discerning Onely God must limit what is truth what error To discerne truth belongeth to all God willeth all men to trie spirites 1. Iohn 4. Matth. 7. And to discerne false teachers Iohn 10. The people must discerne teachers by their doctrine 1. Corinth 10. 1. Corinth 11. * Matth. 24. Colos. 8. Ephes. 5. 1. Iohn 3. * Heb. 5. 1. Corinth 14. Orig in Jeâ—â—â— Naue hom 2. The Fathers referred them selues to the iudgement of the hearers Ambros. Epi. li. 5. orat in Aux Luke 10. Matt. 10. The people haue libertie to discerne and charge to beware seducers Matth. 24. Matth. 23. The people not bound to beleeue the Pharisees doctrine except it accorded to the law of God Aug. in Iohan. tractat 46. Matth. 16. Ibidem vers 11â— 1. Iohn 4. 1. Thes. 5. Rom. 12. Philip. 1. 1. Corinth 2. The whole Scriptures giue the people leaue to discerne the truth and require them so to do Princes haue the same libertie to discerne trie spirites that priuate men haue The former precepts comprise the Prince aswell as the people Heb. 13. Vers. 7. No man bouÌ„d to the Preacher farther than he speaketh truth The Apostles tied to that condition 1. Pet. 1. * 1. Iohn 1. 1. Corinth 4. Galat. 1. The Angels themselues limited to that rule 1. Corinth 7. 1. Corinth 17. Chrysost. in 1. cap. 2. Epist. ad Timoth. hom 2. * Tertul. de praescript advers haereticâ—s * Chrysost. operis imperfect hom 20. in 7. ca. Mat. Much more teachers that are but seruantes of the law and therfore bouÌ„d vnto the law Princes must obey Bishops because they speak in Gods name and not in their owne Act. 20. Bishops haue commission to feede not to rule their flocks 1. Pet. 5. Iohn 21. They be superiour in teaching not in power to commaund and punish Their functioÌ„ is more perfect excellent because God worketh by their hands and mouthes Aug. contra Crescon lib. 4. cap. 6. Aug. in Psa. 10 In 1. cap. 2. epist. ad Tim. hom 2. De spiritu san lib. 3. cap. 19. 1. Corin. 1. 1. Corin. 3 The word sacramentes serue not to aduaunce the Preachers person The Preachers cal for subiection reuerence to their master not to themselues * 2. Corinth 4. * Mark 10. â— Corint 9. The trueth of God is tied to no certaine persons nor places Peters fayth is trueth in deede but that must be taken out of his owne writings not other mens reports No successour may be trusted against or besides the Apostles writings No poynt of fayth vnwritten Rom. 10. Basil. in sermone de fide Idem in Ethiciâ— definiâ— 8. Hilar. ad Constantium August Idem de Trinit lib. 9. Hieron aduersus Helnidium IdeÌ„ in Psal. 86. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haereticoâ— Idem aduersus HermogeneÌ„ Ambros. de virginibus li. 3. Ireneus lib. 3. cap. 1. Cyril de recta fide ad Reginas lib. 2. August de Pastoribus cap. 11. Idem contra literas Petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. Caus. 11. quaest 3. § si is qui preaest No person nor place may be trusted in matters of faith besides and without the scriptures The best direction for Princes is the word of God Psal. 118. Deut. 17. Deut. 12. Esai 8. Luk. 16. Hieron Cap. 1. in epist. ad Galatas Tertullian de praescriptionib Tertullian vâ— supra Heretikes therfore couet a shew of scriptures because they be the grouÌ„ds of all trueth No tribunall on earth to the which trueth is fastned Where trueth is in doubt the Church is in more doubt The shepheards voice is not knoweÌ„ by the sheepe but the sheep by hearing the sheepheards voice * Iohn 10. Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 28. Succession is no sure direction vnto trueth Ireneus lib. 4. Cap. 43. Cap. 44. Cap. 45. Act. 20. Mat. 7. 2. Pet. 2. 2. Cor. 11. 2. Cor. 11. Bishops haue beene heretikes Bishops asseÌ„bled may erre as wel as Bishops seuered Mat. 18. Two or three haue the same promise of assistance that two or three huÌ„dred haue Councels may erre Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 5. * Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 9. * Euag. li. 3. ca. 4. Epist. 55 ad Proropium A generall Councel doth not differ froÌ„ a particular but only in number of persons and places Vide distinct 16 § sexta § primo * Tomo concil primo * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 2. * Idem li. 2. c. 36. Tomo concilior primo A generall Councel erring the Church doth not erre A Councell may be reuersed by the rest that be present or absent Sozo li. 1. ca. 23. Sozo li. 2. ca. 25. Sozo li. 4. ca. 9. Leo epist. 52. ad Anatholium Ibidem Their own fellowes haue consessed that general councels might er Panor de elect electi potestate ¶ significasti Panorm IbideÌ„ A generall councel is not the Church Pigh hierarch ecclesiast lib. 6. cap. 5 4. Pighius is earnest that general CouÌ„cels haue erred in decisioÌ„ of faithes Lib. 6. Cap. 7. Lib. 6. Cap. 13. August de baptist lib. 2 cap. 3. S. Augustine confesseth that councels may erre Ibidem The second Councell of Ephesus was generall * Astio. 1. * Euagrius li. 1. Cap. 10. Reperitur chalcedonens concil actio 1. Chalced. concil actio 1. Ecclesiasticall iudges are often deceiued Contra Crescon lib. 2. cap. 21. August epist. 167. August contra Maximinum lib. 3. cap. 14. Ibidem lib. 3 cap. 14. The Arrians not bound to the authoritie of the Nicene councel The Councell of Ariminum was generall Socrat. lib. 2.
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
Ostendit quid sit non Sacramento tenus sed reuera manducare corpus Christi eius sanguinem bibere The Lord sheweth what it is to eate the flesh of christ drinke his bloud not by way of a sacrament but in deede As if he had said hee that remaineth not in me and in whom I doe not likewise remaine let him neuer say nor thinke that he eateth my flesh or drinketh my bloud That which here he calleth Sacramento tènus before in the same Chapter hee called solo Sacramento opposing against it reuera maÌ„nducare prouing that neither heretikes nor wicked Christians do in deede eate the bodie of Christ but only the Sacrament that is the sacred signe of his bodie They rightly vnderstand that he must not be said to eate the bodie of christ which is not in the body of christ as heretikes be not and of wicked liuers though they keepe in the Church he saith Nec isti dicendi sunt manducare corpus Christi quia nec in membris computandi sunt Christi Neither are these that liue wickedly to bee saide to eate the bodie of christ since they must not be counted the members of Christ. Phi. Not spiritually but Sacramentally they do eate the bodie of Christ though they be wicked and so Sainct Augustine teacheth Theo. Keepe the wordes and sense which S. Augustine hath you shall be free from this error which now you are in He that remaineth not in Christ and in whom Christ abideth not without all doubt doth not spiritually eate his fleshe nor drinke his bloud though carnally and visibly he presse with his teeth the Sacrament of Christs bodie and bloud Sacramentall eating is the carnall and visible pressing with teeth the Sacrament of Christes bodie and bloud it is not the reall eating of Christ himselfe Phi. The Sacrament is Christ we say Theo. But so said not Sainct Augustine He diligently distinguisheth Sacramentum rem Sacramenti the Sacrament and the thing which is the other part of the Sacrament interpreting the Sacrament to be Sacrum Signum a sacred Signe and the thing it selfe to be the bodie of Christ. The Sacrifice of the Church consisteth of two parts Sacramentâ— re Sacramenti id est corpore Christi of the sacrament the thing of the Sacrament which is the bodie of Christ. There is therefore the Sacrament the thing of the Sacrament to witte the body of Christ. Of the Sacrament he saith It is receiued at the Lordes table of some to life of some to destruction Res vero ipsa cuius Sacramentum est omni homini ad vitam nulli ad exitium quicunque eius particeps fuerit But the thing it selfe whereof that is a Sacrament is receiued of all men to life and of none to death whosoeuer is partaker of it The rest ioyne with him in that assertion Heretikes saith Hierom doe not eate his fleshe whose fleshe is the meate of the faithfull Whosoeuer saith Ambrose eateth this bread he shall not die for euer and it is the bodie of Christ. None is partaker of this lambe saith Cyprian that is not a right Israelite The worde saith Origen was made fleshe and true meate the which whosoeuer eateth shall liue for euer Quem nullus malus potest edere whom no wicked person can eate The Sacraments that is the sacred signes of Christes bodie and bloude the wicked doe eate Christ him-selfe they doe not And why The Sacraments are carnally pressed with teeth which they are partakers of as well as the Godlie but Christ him-selfe is not eaten with teeth and therefore the wicked wanting both spirite and faith by which he is receiued cannot possibly eate his fleshe or drinke his bloud though they come to his table neuer so often Phi. If Christ be really contained in the visible Sacrament how can they receiue it but they must receiue him also Theo. If hee were locally and substantially there inclosed it could not be auoided but receiuing the one into their mouthes they must needs also receiue the other into the same passage but because neither he is eaten with teeth nor entereth the bodies of the wicked as where hee abydeth not therefore wee rightly conclude that hee is not corporally couered with the accidentes of bread and wine as you grossely conceiue Phi. The lambe of God lieth on the Altar by the very profession of the first Nicene Councel we aske you now where and how if not vnder the forms of bread and wine Theo. The best handfast you haue in fathers or Councels for this cause is a few speeches wrested and forced from the inward man to the outward from the soul which they ment to the bodie which you vrge thereby to settle your reall and bodily presence but all in vaine For as we doubt not that Christ is alwaies present on his table in trueth grace vertue and effect if we open the eyes of our faith to beholde him and mouth of our spirites to receiue him so the local and corporal hiding of his humane substance vnder the shewes of breade and wine was neuer taught by any Catholike father or councel least of al by the first Nicen Synode exhorting vs in those mysteries or on that sacred table by faith to consider the lambe of God that tooke away the sinnes of the world Whâ—ch if any doe not both professe and perfourme he is not worthie to be counted a Christian. Phi. How saith S. Chrysost wilt thou stand before the tribunal of Christ which inuadest euen his own bodie with wicked hands and lippes Theo. This is not the way to seeke for trueth but to shadowe the same with phrases of speeches And yet in these and al other your allegations out of Chrysostom and others you coÌ„mit these two grosse ouersightes You vnderstand that of the sensible creatures in the sacrament which was spoken of the insensible grace you refer that to the visible parts of our bodies which was inteÌ„ded to the inuisible powers of the mynd with these false fouÌ„dations you run along the fathers peruerting euerie place that you quote as a meane diuine may soone perceiue Phi. These be your shifts to auoide the fathers which we bring because you will not acknowledge the real corporal presence of christ in the sacrament Theo. First proue that Christ is really and corporally present vnder the forms of bread and wine then reproue vs if we do not â—cknowledge it Phi. Doubt you that Theo. Can you proue that Phi. What That Christ is present in the sacrament Theo. Is that the thing which we deny Phi. For ought that I see you graunt not so much The. God forbid we should deny that the flesh bloud of christ are truly present truely receiued of the faithfull at the Lords table It is the doctrine that we â—each others and comfort our selues with Wee neuer
doubted but the trueth was present with the signe the spirite with the sacrameÌ„t as Cyprian saith We knew there could not follow an operation if there went not a presence before Set a side your carnal imaginations of Christ couered with accidences his flesh chammed betweene your teeth and say what you will either of his inuiâ—â—ble presence by power and grace or of the spiritual and effectuall participation of his flesh and bloud offered and receiued of the faith-full by this Sacrament for the quickening and preseruing of their soules and bodies to eternall life we ioyne with you no wordes shal displease vs that any way declare the trueth or force of this mysterie Your locall compassing of Christ with the shewes and fantasticall appearances of bread wine your reall grinding of his flesh with your iawes these be the points that we deny to be Catholike these doe the fathers refute as erroneous and in these your owne fellowes be not yet resolued what to say or what to hold Phi. Be not we resolued what to hold of Christes reall being in the Sacrament and the corporall eating his flesh with our mouthes Theo. How you be secretly resolued I know not your iudgementes laid downe to the world in writing are cleane contrarie Phi. Ours Theo. Whose said I but yours Phi. Howsouer in other thinges we retaine the libertie of the Schooles to dispute pro con yet in this you shall finde vs all together Theo. Together by the eares as dogges for bones Omit your contentions what the pronowne H O C supposeth what the verbe E S T â—ignifieth when and how the bread is abolished whether by conuersion or annihilation what bodie succeedeth and whether with distinction of parts and extension of quantity or without what subiect the accidents haue to hang on whether the aire or the body of Christ what it is that soureth and putrifieth in the formes of bread and wine whether it be the same bodie that sitteth in heauen and if it be how so many contradictions may be verified of one the same thing Omit I say these with infinite other like contentions the corporall eating of christ with your mouthes are you all agreed about it Philan. We are Theo. Your two Seminaries are perhaps because they hearken rather for sedition in the realme than for Religion in the Schooles But the great Rabbins of your side are they in one opinion concerning this matter Phi. Great and small consent togither against you Theo. Against trueth they doe but in their owne fantasticall error they doe not The cheefest Pillours of your church when they come to that point which is now in handling wander in the desert of their owne deuises as men forsaking and forsaken of trueth Your Gloze is content if a man gape wide that the body of christ shall enter his mouth but he holdeth it for an heresie that the teeth should touch the same and therefore when the iawes beginne to close he dispatcheth away the body of christ in post towards heauen Certum est It is no coniecture but certaine that as soone as the formes of bread be pressed with the teeth tam cito presently the bodie of christ is caught vp into heauen Durandus is more fauourable to the teeth and will haue christ present in the mouth chamme he that list till his â—awes ake but hee is as strait laced against the stomack as the glozer is against the teeth and wil by no meanes haue the bodie of christ to passe thither building himselfe on these wordes of Hugo Christ is corporally present in visu in sapore whiles wee see or tast the sacrament As long as our bodily senses are affected so long his corporall presence is not remooued but when once the senses of our bodie beginne to faile that we neither see nor tast the formes then must wee seeke no longer for a corporall presence but retaine the spirituall because christ passeth from the mouth neither to heauen as the Gloze said nor to the stomack as the rest affirme but to the hart And better it is that he goe straight to the mind than descend to the stomacke Others is whome Bonauenture more inclineth will no way but Christ must take vp his lodging as wel in the stomacke as in the mouth maâ—y thence they suffer him not to wagge neither vpward nor downward whatsoeuer become of the accidentâ—l forms of bread and wine And lest it should be â—hought as Durand and Hugo say that the bodie of Christ goeth to the hart he repâ—ieâ—h that Quantum ad substantiam corporis certum est quod non vadit in meâ—tem sed vtrum sic vadâ—t in ventrâ—m dubium est propter diuersitatem opinionum as touching the substance of his bodie it is cleare that he passeth not to the mind but whether he so come that is in the substance of his bodie from the mouth to the belliâ— this is yet in doubt by reason of the diueâ—sitie of opinions in so great varietie what to hold is haâ—d to iudge Yet he liketh not that Aut mus in ventrem traijceret aut in cloacam descenderet the bodie of Christ shuld goe into the bellie of a mouse or be cast foorth by the draught because the eares of well disposed persons would abhorre that sidiceremus haeretici infideles deriderent nos irriderent and if we should defend that the heretiks and infidels would iest at vs and laugh vs to scorne This notwithstanding Alexander de Hales in spiâ—e of al heretikes and infidels â—entereth on it If a dog or an hogge saith he should eat the whole consecrated host I see no cause but the Lords bodie should goe therewithall into the bellie of that dog or hog Thomas of Aquine sharpely reprouâ—th them which thinke otherwise Some haue saide that as soone as the Sacrament is taken of a mouse or a dog streight way the bodie and bloud of Christ cease to be there but this is a derogation to the trueth of this Sacrament In â—auour of Thomas Petrus de Palude Ioannes de Burgo Nicolaus de Oâ—bellis with the whole sect of Thomists neither few in number nor mean in credite with the church of Rome defend the same yea where the master of the sentences seemed to shrinke from this loathsome position It may wel be said that the bodie of Christ is not receined of brute beasts the facultie of diuines in Paris with full consent gaue him this check here the master is refused And for feare lest the field should be wonne without him in steppeth Antonius Archbishoppe of Florence and recompenseth his late comming with his lewd writing First hee telleth how Petrus de Palude dressed the Glâ—ze for saying that Christ is caught vp to heauen as soone as the formes of the sacrament are pressed with our teeth Quod dicere est haereticum which