Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	doctrine_n	scripture_n	tradition_n	1,683	5	8.8849	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A06697	A profitable dialogue for a peruerted papist. Or a little labour of a lay men tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist: namely, by laying open vnto him his ovvne errour, in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre. Composed in dialogue maner, as it were betweene a simple lay man, and certayne graue diuines, and published onely for the benefit of the lay Papist. VVritten by R.M. gent. and student in Diuinity.	R. M., student in divinity.	1609 (1609)	STC 17149; ESTC S103258	25,816	46

A Profitable Dialogue for a peruerted Papist OR A little Labour of a Lay man tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist namely by laying open vnto him his owne errour in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre Composed in Dialogue maner as it were betweene a simple Lay man and certayne graue Diuines and published onely for the benefit of the Lay Papist Written by R. M. Gent. and Student in Diuinity Brethren be not children in vnderstanding 1. Cor. 14. 20. If God be on our side who can be against vs Rom. 8. 31. Seeke and ye shall finde Math. 7. 7. LONDON Printed by Simon Stafford dwelling in the Cloth-fayre neere the signe of the red Lion 1609. The Contents of this Booke THis small Treatise is diuided into two parts 1 THe first part contaynes certayne proofs frō Antiquity that it is onely the society of the faithfull the holy Catholike Church that can not finally erre and that the visible Church of Rome or where else soeuer may erre And therefore not lawfull for any one Bishop on earth to be admitted vniuersall Bishop or supreme head of the vniuersall Church 2 THe second part confirmes the former proofes by manifest proofes also from Antiquity that the visible Church of Rome doth erre in a principall poynt of Christian doctrine as namely touching the Sacrament of the blessed Body and Blood of our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ The Authour to the learned Reader GOod Reader my selfe being a Lay man and altogether vnskilfull in Artes I am therefore to entreat of thee being a scholer that thou wilt not so much regard the maner and forme of this my weake worke as the matter and substance it selfe which is no other thing in effect but certaine manifest proofes from Antiquity that the Church of Rome doth erre proued by such ancient witnesses as the Papists themselues allow for lawfull and so forcible are those witnesses against those Romish aduersaries that if hereafter any of them shall go about to reply against this Treatise ensuing they shall but thereby the more lay open their owne follies and shame in striuing against the inuincible streame for great is the Trueth and it will preuayle yea what can more confound the learned aduersary or as S. Paul sayth * Tit. ● 10. 11. condemne him to erre in his owne iudgement then to find himselfe altogether vnable without absurd cauelling and vndirect dealing to resist the weakenesse of a simple Lay man fighting in Trueths behalfe for notwithstanding my Sixe demaunds to the learned Papists be the simplest booke that euer hitherto hath bene brought foorth against them yet are they not able to reply directly against it without absurdity Whereupō I doubt they will seeme to skorne to vouchsafe it an answere But here by the way I acknowledge and that sincerely that it is vnmeete for any Lay man although neuer so great a scholer to take to himselfe the office of ministery in the Church or to clime vp to the Pulpit before he be lawfully called to that holy and reuerend function But for Lay men decently to instruct and admonish one another it is no nouelty but a thing allowable in the Church many yeeres since as witnesseth S. Hierome who sayth playnely * Vpon the Ep●stle to the Colo. Chap. 3. that the Apostle Paul doth teach that Lay men ought to haue the Scriptures abundantly and to instruct and admonish one another c. But if it be tolerable for Lay men to admonish one another it followes then because all are not scholers that some of them may be also tolerated to write simply and playnely and according to that maner of speach which the common vulgar sort do vsually speake who neuer speake more eloquently then when they speake trueth sincerely and playnely and then they thinke they speake very well if they be vnderstood very well But perhaps some learned Aduersary will obiect according to his vsuall maner against these proofes which I haue here cited from some of the ancient Fathers liuing in the Church aboue a thousand yeeres since that they haue bene brought forth already by diuers learned men long since answered by learned men also therfore in vaine for me being a Lay man vnlearned to cite them againe thinking that I haue but gathered them here and there out of other mens workes where they haue bene collected before and for that cause likewise from me the lesse to be regarded These things being obiected I answere True it is that the same proofes haue long since bene brought forth against the Aduersaries by thē also answered but how well or how ill they haue bin answered let that be tryed by those Christians which are of soūd iudgement for this I da●e auouch that a lawfull witnesse being brought against any mā it is no lesse then an absurd answer in that man whosoeuer to reply that the same witnesse in speaking of one thing doth thereby meane another But into the same strayte are all Heretiks brought by resisting the apparāt truth And this is a principall marke to be aymed at in this our corrupt age in which there is so much dissension and controuersie among professed Christians For if our aduersaries might be permitted to answere so absurdly and to passe from one poynt to another before some one poynt onely be throughly decided all the labour wee take to cleanse them from their infectious spots of errour would proue but labour in vayne but God be thanked the faithfull know well how to preuent the silly shiftes of Heretikes and so with little labour eyther to conuert them or confound them for commonly the Heretike may be condemned by his owne mouth his doctrine contradicting some trueth in Scripture which himselfe professeth to beleeue for where traditions and customes of men are regarded before holy Scripture there ignorance doth soone beget errour especially if diuers things called by one name be not so perfectly distinguished but that the one may be taken for the other But let the ignorant learne first touching faith A true faith which worketh by loue is one thing and a verball or vaine faith another Secondly touching iustification A iustification before God is one thing and a iustification before men another for God iustifieth according to the inward heart by the good tree true faith but man iustifieth according to the outward declaration by the fruits proceeding frō that tree * Luke 6. 43. good workes S. Paul treating of the first iustification denyes not the second for he sayth If Abraham were iustified by workes he hath wherein to reioyce but not with God c. γ Rom. 4. S. Iames treating of the second denyes not the first for he graunts Abraham beleeuing God it was imputed vnto him for righteousnesse c γ Iames. 2. Thirdly touching the Church The society of the faithfull which liue by true faith and therefore hell gates not possible to preuayle against them is one thing and a

Christ can not haue condēned members c. Who then can poynt to those that can not erre Although both good and euill i In his booke of the vnity of the Church chap. 18. may giue and receyue the Sacrament of Baptisme yet not any are spiritually regenerated built together in the body and members of Christ but the good Doubtlesse in the good is that Church by whom it is sayd k Canti Cap. ● 2. Like a Lilly among the thornes so is my Loue among the daughters c. For it is in those that build vpon the Rocke that is those which heare the words of Christ and doe them for it was sayd to Peter l Mat. 16. 18. conf●ssing Christ the Sonne of God And vpon this Rocke I will build my Church It is not then in th●se which build vpon sand that is those which heare the words of Christ and do them not for he sayth m Mat. 7. 24. He that heareth my words and doeth the same I will liken him to a wise man which builds his hous● vpon a rocke And in the same place a little a●t●r he sayth He which heareth my words and doeth them not I will liken him to a foolish man which builds his house vpon sand c. Those then that are incorporated by the ioyning of charity dwelling vpon the Rocke and standing together bright as a Lilly among thornes they shall verily poss●sse the kingdome of God But those which buyld vpon ●and or are accounted as thornes who can doubt that they shall not possesse the Kingdome of GOD Truely the Sacrament of Bapti●me profits not such c. They shal not possesse the kingdome of God and therefore they are no● on the Rocke and because they are not on the Rock without all doubt they are not to bee accounted in the Church because vpon this Rocke sayth he I will build my Church c. Lay. To those that are not wilfully obstinate in erronious opinions thou hast sayd inough for this matter most reuerend Father for here thou dost most plainly declare vnto vs who they are of whome the true Church the Spouse of Christ cōsisteth euen those that heare the words of Christ and do them they onely build vpō the Rock against which hel gates cannot preuavl● for as thou dost most truely affirme whosoeuer builds not vpon that Rock without al doubt they are not to be accounted in the true Church because vpon the same Rocke that Church is built But what is thy opinion touching Peter and Peters successours in Peters chayre which in the new Law as some say is answerable to the chayre of Moses If they heare the words of Christ and do them not shall they yet notwithstanding be obeyed as men that cannot erre Aug. My sonne n In his 〈◊〉 Sermon vpon S. Mat. This name that he should be called Peter was giuen him of our Lord because by that figure he might signifie the Church for Christ is the Rocke Peter the Christian people for that Rocke is a principall name Therefore he is Peter from the Rocke not the Rocke from Peter euen as Christ is not called from a Christian but a Christian from Christ Thou art therefore Peter sayth he and vpon this Rocke which thou hast confessed vpon this Rocke which thou hast acknowledged saying Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God I will build my Church that is vpon my selfe the Sonne of the liuing God I will buyld my Church vpon mee I will buyld thee not mee vpon thee for men willing to be built vpon men say I verily am of Paul but I belong to Apollos but I am of Cephas which is Peter But others which would not build vpon Peter but vpon the Rocke say But I am of Christ c. 1 Cor. 1. 12. Many in the Church follow after earthly businesses o In his 46. Treatis vpon S. Iohn yet they preach Christ and by them the voice of Christ is heard but the sheep follow not the hirelings but the voyce of the Shepherd by meanes of the hirelings Note the Lord himselfe doth declare vnto you what hirelings are p Mat. 23. 2 3. The Scribes and the Pharises sayth he sit in the chayre of Moses what they say do but what they do that do not What other thing sayd he but By hirelings heare the voice of the Shepherd for fitting in Moses chayre they teach the Law of God therefore God teacheth by them But if they teach their owne neyther heare nor do what they say for truely such seeke their owne not those things which are of Iesus Christ c. Lay. It séemes then by thy iudgement that we must not build vpon men of what calling or place soeuer vnlesse what they teach be agréeable to the Law of God and herein indéed thou doost follow the good counsell and aduice of blessed Paul who sayth plainely touching the visible Church q Gala. 1. 8. Though that we or an Angell frō heauen preach vnto you otherwise then that which we haue preached vnto you let him be accursed c. And thereby proues inuincibly that no doctrine is to be receyued in the Church although constituted by the Church contrary and besides that pure doctrine taught from the beginning And the same thing doth S. Iohn proue also r 1. Iohn ● 24. ● 1. and therefore our aduersaries of Rome would gladly proue some of their owne doctrines to be the traditions of the Church receyued first from the Apostles themselues and vainely they boast as a great matter against vs that we are not able directly to shew the time when the Church of Rome fell into any Error nor by whom shée was first brought into errour But all this is but vaine cauelling for the deuill hath not so little craft in him as to change good to euill suddenly for then the euil could hardly take place but by little and little which craft by a great nūber is little or nothing perceyued at the first he brings much euill into the Church By continuance of time the often droppes of water haue made a hole in the hardest stone but none could tell the time directly when that hole was made It is sufficient to proue the Church of Rome to teach now contrary to the doctrine taught in the same Church aboue a thousand yeres since which thing is easie to be proued by the helpe of thée and other ancient witnesses They séeme also to make good and lawfull their owne Doctrines and Traditions besides the Scriptures by that place in the Gospell where our Sauiour sayth to his Disciples s Iohn 16. 12 13. I haue yet many things to say to you but ye can not beare them now howbeit when he is come which is the Spirit of Truth he shall lead you into all trueth c. But what sayest thou ancient Augustine to this delusion of theirs Aug. My sonne t In his 97. Treatis vpon S. Iohn

to him likewise the Body and Blood of Christ Thou séemest thereby to contradict thy former speaches here vttered touching the same thing declare vnto vs therefore the cause why thou diddest write after that maner Aug. My sonne If Sacraments x In his 23. Epistle to Boniface had not some similitude o● likenesse of these things whereof they be Sacraments they should not be Sacraments at all and from this similitude most commonly they receyue the names also of the same things so that after a certayne maner the Sacrament of the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ The Sacrament of the Blood of Christ is the Blood of Christ c. And therefore as I sayd before * Pag● 18. at the letter ●o Our Lord doubted not to say This is my Body when he gaue the signe or Sacrament of his Body c. Lay. Undoubtedly thou hast layd open this matter also very playne for indéed after a certayne maner both Christ carryed himselfe in his owne hands and also Iudas did eate and drinke the Body and Blood of our Lord. But doost thou allow it lawfull for any man to follow the literall sence in a contrary respect that is with a carnall seruitude to take the signes for the things signified by them and so to reuerence the Sacrament as the thing it selfe Aug. My sonne The Lord himselfe y In his ● Booke of Christian doctrine Chap. 9. and the Apostolical discipline hath deliuered some few signes for many and the same most easie to be done and most reuerend to be vnderstood and most pure in obseruation as is the Sacrament of Baptisme and the Celebration of the Body Blood of our Lord which things euery one being instructed when he receyueth acknowledgeth to what they are referred that he reuerence them not with a carnall seruitude but rather with a spirituall liberty c. But as to follow the letter and to take the signes for the things which are signified by them comes of seruile infirmity so likewise to interpret the signes vnprofitable proceedes from the euill of wandring errour c. Lay. These last words of thine most reuerend Father are inuincible against the doctrine herein of our Romish aduersaryes for if hereafter they shall boast that thou doost agrée with their Transsubstantiation carnall aderation in the Masse we will then demaund of them what other thing it is to follow the letter to take the signes for the things signified and so to reuerence them with a carnall seruitude but the selfe-same carnall doctrine of Transsubstantiation And therefore we will now rest fully satisfied with these thy former speaches as being from thee a sufficient witnesse herein against them And the better to approue this thy doctrine to be the doctrine of the Church aboue a thousand yeeres since we will ioyne here with thee a witnesse or two more from Antiquity that by the mouth of two or three witnesses z 2. Cor. 13. 1. the Trueth may be confirmed Speake diuine Hierome what is thy true opinion touching this matter now in controuersie about the mystery or Sacrament of the Body and Blood of our Lord. Speake briefly learned Father yet let it be so effectuall that thy words may playnely declare thy meaning Hierome My sonne a Vpon the 147. Psalm I thinke the Gospell the Body of Iesus c. And where he sayth He which shall not eate my flesh and drinke my blood c. b Iohn 6. 5● although it may be vnderstood in the mystery yet more truely the word of the Scripture is the Body and Blood of Christ The doctrine is diuine c Looke the 26. Homily of S. Aug. and against Maximil Chap. 22. and note how he doth agree with this of ● Hierom If at any time we go to the mystery he which is faithfull vnderstandeth it If he fall into a spot he is in danger If at any time we heare the word of GOD both the word of God and the flesh of Christ and his blood is powred into our eares and we think an other thing to what great danger we runne into c. Lay. Verily thou hast here according to our desire briefly spoken to the purpose indéed and it may well suffice for a testimony from thée against that strange doctrine of Transsubstantiation for according thereunto we know not how the holy Scripture can be so truely the Body and Blood of Christ as the holy mystery and therefore because yea or nay is a sufficient answere we will content our selues onely with this thy briefe affirmation herein and so procéede to the third witnesse Speake diuine Theodoret what sayest thou touching the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of our Lord Theodoret. My sonne d All this from Theo. is to be found in his 1. and 2. Dialogue Thou knowest that God called his Body Bread e Iohn 6. 51. Lay. I know it Theodoret. Moreouer in another place he named wheate flesh f Math. 〈…〉 Lay. I know this to be true also Theo. In the tradition of mysteries he called bread his Body and that which powred and commixed in the cup Blood Lay. So he did call these things indéed but did he rightly call them so as being his naturall Body and Blood or did he but change the names Theo. My sonne That which is a body according to nature shall rightly be called a body and likewise blood c. But our Sauiour changed the names verily and imposed to the body that name which rightly belonged to the signe and Symbole but to the signe he imposed that name which belonged to the body so when he had named himselfe a Vyne he called that Blood which was the signe Lay. But the nature of the Bread and wine still remayning what is the cause of the alteration of the names Theo. To those that are admitted to the diuine mysteryes the institution is manifest for he would not haue them which are partakers of the diuine mysteries to regard the nature of those things which are seene but by the changing of the names to beleeue the alteration which is made by grace for he which named that Wheat and Bread which by nature is a body and againe named himselfe a Vine he hath honored the Symboles and signes which are seene with the name of the Body and Blood not verily changing nature but adding grace to nature c. Lay. What sayst thou then to those Heretiks which hold that as those signes of the Body and Blood of our Lord were one kind of things before the inuecation of the Priest or minister and after are changed and made other things euen so the Body of our Lord also after the resurrection is changed into the diuine substance Theo. My sonne g In his ●… Dialoges They are taken in their owne snares for neyther do the misticall signes depart from their owne nature after sanctificatiō but they remayne in the former substance and figure and