Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	doctrine_n	scripture_n	tradition_n	1,683	5	8.8849	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

true bookes of Scripture and Fathers which be true translations and which be right interpretations for both about Scriptures Fathers such Questions may arise and cannot be well decided whout the Iudgement of the true present visible Church in regard Scriptures and Fathers do not alwaies sufficiently expresse what is to be held in the aforesaid Questions neither will one priuate man in such cases follow anothers opinion when ech man will be easily inclined to thinke that he hath as good Scriptures or Fathers or Reasons or all these togeather to plead for the truth of his opinion as another hath for his This reason may be confirmed out of Tertullian who in his golden booke of Prescriptions giueth diuers reasons why Heretikes who reiect the authority of the Church should not be admitted to dispute out of Scriptures First for that by their disputations they weary those that be fame they ouercome those which be weake and those which be in a middle disposition they dism●sse with scruple or doubt Another reason Tertullian giueth because this Heresy doth not receaue some Scriptures or if a receaue it peruerteth them to their owne purpose with additions and detractions and if it receaue some yet not whole or if whole in some sort yet by false expositions it turneth them from the right to a peruerse sense And a peruerse or corrupt sense sayth he is as contrary to truth as is a peruerted or corrupted Text. Tertullian therefore for these reasons iudged best not to make the combat in Scriptures but that this gappe should be stopt and that Heretikes should not be admitted to any disputation of Scriptures and he telleth how this may be done saying It must be examined to whome the possession of Scripture doth belong to the intent that he who hath no right vnto them may not be admitted vnto them And further he sheweth That the right order of thinges requireth that first it only be disputed to whom the Fayth belongeth As if he should say which is the true visible Church VVhose are the Scriptures From whome by whome when and to whome was deliuered that discipliae by which they are made Christians for where there shall appeare the truth of Christian sayth and discipline to be as doubtles it is in the true visible Church of Christ there shal be truth of Scriptures and expositions and al Christian Traditions And hauing shewed how Christ did promulgate his doctrine by the Apostles he further prescribeth That what Christ and his Apostles did preach must be learned no otherwise then by the Churches which they founded so as euery doctrine agreeing with those Apostolicall Mother-Churches that is to be deemed true and what doth not agree to be iudged false And therefore to make it apparent that the Heretikes opinions although pretended by themselues to be cc̄formable to Scriptures and such as may be proued out of Scriptures are not Apostolicall nor true he vrgeth them as M. Fisher vrged D. Featly to shew the beginning of their Churches and to vnfould the order of their Bishops so from the beginning running downe by succession as that their first Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author and Predecessour and hauing giuen examples of the Catholike Churches who can thus vnfould the order of their Pastours and namely Rome for one he sayth afterwardes Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let Heretiques euen feigne some such like thing Thus we see what Tertullian did say to Heretikes of his tyme by which we may learne what we may say to the Nouellists of our tyme whome offering to dispute with vs about Scriptures we may altogeather debarre from Scripture and may examine them as Tertullian did those of his tyme saying VVho are you VVhen and whence came you VVhat haue you to do in my ground you that are not myne By what right dost thou O Marcion we may say O Martin Luther cut down my woods By what licence dost thou O Valentine O Caluin diuert or turne aside my fountaynes By what power dost thou O Apelles O Anabaptist remoue my limits VVhy do you O the rest of Heretikes sow and feed according to your owne will vpon my Land and pasture It is my possession I am the ancient possessour I haue the firme Originalls from the Authors themselues to whome the propriety did first belong I am the heyre of the Apostles as they did ordaine in their Testament and last will as they did commit it to my faythfull Trust as they did adiure me so I hold it But you they haue disinherited and cast out as strangers and enemyes c. So as by this prescription of Tertullian vntill D. Featly or some other can by other markes then by alleadging wordes of Scripture as by perpetuall visibility and interrupted succession of Bishops c. proue Protestants not to be Heretikes but the true Church of Christ and the right heyre of the Apostles to whome cōsequently belongeth the most ancient first possession of Scriptures M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him out of Scripture of Christ and his Apostles vntill he had made his full Induction of Names of Protestant Church-men and vnfoulded the orders of their Prostant Bishops so running downe from the beginning by succession as that their first Protestant Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author Predecessour The which I accompt to be so impossible for him to doe as I dare and do challenge him saying with Tertullian Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let D. Featly or any of his fellow Protestants at least feigne because I am sure they cannot find Names of Protestant Bishops and Pastors whome they do imagine for proue they cannot out of good Authors to haue beene in all ages Which whiles they do not al sorts of people haue iust cause to thinke that neither D. Featly nor D. VVhite can performe that taske which they did tooto boldly vndertake of naming prouing and defending visible Ptotestants in al ages therupon al men may as I do conclude That the Protestant Church hath not beene so visible in all ages as the Cathelike Church ought to be and consequently the Protestant Church is not the true Catholique Church which we prosesse to beleeue in our Creed Neither consequently are their I'astours and Doctours and Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorized to teach and expound Gods word nor consequently are people securely warranted to learne of them what is and what is not to be belieued by infallible diuine fa●th necessary to saluation nor indeed ought they to beleeue or heare them at all but ought to vnite themselues to that One Holy Catholike Apostolike perpetually visible Roman Church hearing beleeuing obeying the Pastors thereof whereby they may haue infallible iustruction in all matters of fayth secure direction for all matters concerning good life in such sort as they may attaine remission of their sinnes and saluation of their soules the grace of God in this life and endles heauenly happines in the next Vnto which I beseech sweet Iesus to bring vs all Amen FINIS Eudaimon Iohannes in defens p. H. Garn. D. Bishop against Rob. Abbots A very weake and Insufficient satisfaction as is showed hereafter Eph. 4. Heb. 11. Rom. 10. v. 14 15. Eph. 4. 11. Ose. 2. v. 19 20. Isa. 59. 20. Matth. 18. 20. Eph. 4. v. 11. 〈…〉 M. Fisher. D. Field in his Epistle Dedicatone Aug. lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae a This great Lady did expresly say that the conferēce did make against Protestants euen as it was related by you Protestant relator And another Lady who was present at the conferēce did protest to one that asked her how it moued her that she was by it confirmed in Catholique religion Lib. 1. Inst. c. 1. Sect. 4. Eph. 4. v. 11. c. Rom. 10. v. 14. c. 1 Luth. ep ad Argentin anno 1525. 2 Conradus Schushelb in Theol. Calu. lib. 2. fol. 130. B. versus finé 3 Geo. Mylli in Augustanae Confessionis explie art 7. de Eccl. pag. 137. 4 Benedict Morgést trac de Eccl pag. 145. 5 Calu. in I. epist. ep 141. 6 Bucer ep ad Epis. Hereford 7 Beza in Theol. ep epi. 5. 8 Iewell in his Apolog. of the Church 4 c. diuis 2. in his defence 42. 9 Perkins in exposit of the Creed † See the booke intituled The Author and substance of Protestant religiō Isa. 59. v. 21. Isa. 61 9 Isa. 60 11 Matth. 5 14 Matth. 18 17 Matth. 28 19 20 Coccius in thesauro Cōtrouersiarum tomo 1. lib. 8. art 1. Aug. in psal 47. lib. de vnit Eccles. cap. 16. 25. Isa. 59. v. 21. 60. v. 11. 61. v. 9. 1. Tim. 3. v. 15. Ephes. 4. v. 4. 11. 12. 13. 14. Tertul. lib. de praescript Luc. 10. v. 16. Matth. 18. v. 17 Tertull. de praescrip c. 15. Cap. 19. Cap. 20. 21. 22 sequent Cap. 32.

posteriori is more demonstratiue then a priori M. Fisher did not speake perhaps he might say That a proofe a posteriori doth better demonstrate to vs then a priori not meaning in general to preferre a Logical demonstration a posteriori before that which is a priori but that such a proofe a posteriori as he in this present Question required and as the Question it selfe exacted would better demonstrate or shew to al sorts of men which is the true Church then any proofe which D. Featly or D. White can make a priori to proue the Protestant Church to be the true Church as shal be shewed when need is hereafter at this present it may suffice to say to that which D. Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibilitie That although al kind of visible Professors doe not argue right Faith yet want of visible Professors argueth want of Christs true Church For supposing it to be true which euen D. Featly himselfe here saith according to the Protestants Relator viz. We know by the Promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaines the true Faith shal haue alwayes Professors more or lesse visible and as M. Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid Papers giuen to the old Gentleman before this meeting so visible as their names in al ages may be shewed out of good Authors Supposing also out of D. Whitaker contra Dur. l. 7. p. 472. That whatsoeuer is fore-told by the ancient Prophets of the propagation amplitude and glory of the Church is most clearely witnessed by Histories and supposing lastly out of D. Iohn White in his Way p. 338. That things past cannot be shewed to vs but by Histories Supposing al this I say it is most apparant That if there cannot be produced as there cannot names of Protestants or of any other Professors of Christian Faith in al ages out of Histories to whom Gods Promises agree beside those which are knowne Roman Catholikes not Protestants nor any other but onely the Roman Catholikes are the true Church of Christ which teacheth the true Faith and of which al sorts are to learne infallible Faith necessarie to Saluation But as for the argument which D. Featly wil needes perswade vs not to be Petitio principy but Demonstratio a priori viz. That Church whose Faith is eternal and perpetual and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholike Church ought to be and as the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the Faith of Protestants Church is eternal perpetual and vnchanged Ergo The Protestants Church is so visible as the Catholike Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be This argument as it is set downe is so farre from being a Demonstration whose propertie is to conuince the Vnderstanding as it is not a probable or Moral perswasion For I am verily perswaded that no wise man not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions wil or can be so much as morally conuinced or in any sort probably perswaded by it That Protestants be the true visible Church more then a man in case of doubt can be by the like argument which a man may make to proue himselfe and his Brethren to be as wel spoken of as any in al the Parish Thus Those who are in heart true honest men are as wel spoken of as any in al the Parish But I and my Brethren are in heart true honest men Ergo As this proofe is not able to make any man not partially affected to beleeue these men to be wel spoken of or to be honest men so neyther can D. Featlyes proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to be the true visible Church or to haue the true Faith Secondly If the terme That Church be vnderstood onely of a particular Church as for example the Church of England it is so farre from a Logical Demonstration as it hath not in it any Logical forme according to any of the vsual Moods Barbara Caelarent c. But if it be vnderstood vniuersally of euery Church that is or may be then both Maior and Minor are false and so it cannot be a Demonstration whose propertie is to consist of most certainely true propositions The Maior in this latter sense is false for that there may be a Church or Companie who may haue inward Faith eternal and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels who for want of visible Profession are not so visible as the Catholike Church ought to be The Minor is false also for the Protestant Church hath not the true Primitiue Faith neyther is that Faith they haue vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great Person in Germanie once said of some Protestants What they hold this yeare I doe in some sort know but what they wil hold next yeere I doe not know Which is true in regard they haue no certaine and infallible Rule sufficient to preserue them from change But if D. Featly shal say That he neyther meant the tearme That Church in eyther of the aforesaid senses but meant to signifie by it that one holy Catholike and Apostolike Church which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetual vnchanged Faith and also to be perpetually visible Then indeed the Maior is true But the Minor is most false and so the argument is farre from being a Demonstration especially when it endeuoreth to proue Magis no●um per ignotius viz. the Visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hard to be knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense Whereof according to Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particulat man can be infallibly sure For if the whole Church or Companie to whom Christ promised the Spirit of Truth to teach them al truth may erre Then much more may euery particul●r man erre and consequently no particular man can be infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture Thirdly This argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithful we aske at least virtually which is the true Faith in regard the true Church cannot be without this true Faith Yea therefore doe we aske which is the true Church that of it being first knowne by other Markes we may learne what is the true Faith in al points in which we yet know not what is to be held for true Druine Faith Fourthly Although Faith be pre-required to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward Faith alone without some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church Let D. Featly therefore looke backe vpon his argument and tel vs what Academical Learning taught him to cal it a Demonstration a priori But let vs heare how M. Fisher did answer this