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truth_n difference_n image_n shift_v 18 3 16.0381 5 false
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A09108 A revievv of ten publike disputations or conferences held vvithin the compasse of foure yeares, vnder K. Edward & Qu. Mary, concerning some principall points in religion, especially of the sacrament & sacrifice of the altar. VVherby, may appeare vpon how vveake groundes both catholike religion vvas changed in England; as also the fore-recounted Foxian Martyrs did build their new opinions, and offer themselues to the fire for the same, vvhich vvas chiefly vpon the creditt of the said disputations. By N.D.; Review of ten publike disputations. Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610. 1604 (1604) STC 19414; ESTC S105135 194,517 376

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again_o exhibit_v and_o confirm_v and_o this_o not_o by_o exposition_n of_o their_o own_o head_n only_o as_o sectarye_n do_v but_o by_o intendment_n and_o interpretation_n of_o the_o grave_a and_o most_o ancient_a father_n that_o have_v live_v in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n from_o age_n to_o age_n who_o understand_v so_o the_o say_a figure_n and_o foreshewinge_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n as_o for_o example_n the_o bread_n and_o wine_n misterious_o offer_v to_o almighty_a god_n by_o melchisedeck_n king_n and_o priest_n who_o bear_v the_o type_n of_o our_o saviour_n gen._n 14._o psalm_n 109._o heb._n 7._o the_o shewbread_n among_o the_o jew_n that_o only_o can_v be_v eat_v by_o they_o that_o be_v sanctify_v exod._n 40._o etc._n etc._n reg._n 21._o the_o bread_n send_v miraculous_o bread_n by_o a_o angel_n to_o elias_n whereby_o he_o be_v so_o strengthen_v as_o he_o travayl_v 40._o day_n without_o eat_v by_o virtue_n only_o of_o that_o bread_n these_o three_o sort_n of_o bread_n to_o 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and_o impart_v with_o we_o which_o most_o evident_o do_v appear_v to_o be_v mangle_v and_o unperfect_a in_o many_o place_n without_o head_n or_o foot_n coherence_n or_o consequence_n which_o must_v proceed_v either_o of_o purpose_n to_o make_v matter_n obscure_a and_o thereby_o to_o bring_v the_o reader_n into_o doubt_n and_o confusion_n or_o of_o lack_n of_o good_a information_n and_o that_o the_o former_a be_v more_o credible_a than_o the_o second_o may_v be_v gliess_v by_o the_o variety_n of_o impertinent_a note_n in_o the_o margin_n scoff_n and_o jest_n in_o the_o text_n it_o self_n often_o time_n put_v in_o to_o deface_v the_o catholic_a party_n and_o to_o give_v credit_n to_o his_o sectarye_n and_o consequent_o what_o faith_n may_v be_v give_v to_o his_o narration_n but_o only_o where_o they_o make_v against_o himself_o be_v easy_a to_o be_v see_v especial_o in_o that_o himself_o confess_v that_o ridley_n write_v in_o prison_n his_o own_o disputation_n after_o they_o be_v pass_v 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never_o so_o manifest_a if_o the_o defendant_n will_v listen_v to_o cavil_n &_o the_o reader_n be_v so_o inconsiderate_a or_o careless_a of_o his_o own_o peril_n as_o to_o be_v delight_v or_o abuse_v therewith_o 5._o three_o in_o the_o allegation_n of_o father_n testimony_n considerable_a which_o here_o be_v to_o ensue_v it_o be_v to_o be_v weigh_v not_o only_o what_o they_o say_v but_o also_o how_o they_o say_v what_o phrase_n and_o speech_n they_o use_v and_o to_o what_o end_n and_o whether_o if_o they_o have_v be_v of_o the_o protestant_n religion_n they_o will_v have_v use_v those_o phrase_n or_o no_o more_o than_o protestant_a writer_n do_v themselves_o at_o this_o day_n especial_o so_o ordinary_o and_o common_o as_o the_o say_a father_n do_v they_o be_v man_n both_o learned_a wise_a and_o religious_a that_o well_o know_v how_o to_o utter_v their_o own_o mind_n &_o meaning_n what_o be_v proper_a &_o improper_a speech_n &_o withal_o not_o be_v ignorant_a how_o great_a 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but_o what_o speech_n to_o wit_n that_o whereby_o all_o thing_n be_v create_v the_o lord_n command_v and_o heaven_n be_v make_v the_o lord_n command_v &_o earth_n be_v make_v the_o lord_n command_v &_o the_o sea_n be_v make_v etc._n etc._n vides_fw-la ergò_fw-la quàm_fw-la operatorius_fw-la sit_fw-la sermo_fw-la christi_fw-la si_fw-la ergò_fw-la tanta_fw-la vis_fw-la est_fw-la in_o sermone_fw-la domini_fw-la ut_fw-la inci●●rent_fw-la esse_fw-la quae_fw-la non_fw-la erant_fw-la quanto_fw-la magis_fw-la operatorius_fw-la erit_fw-la ●●_o sint_fw-la quae_fw-la erant_fw-la &_o in_o aliud_fw-la commutentur_fw-la you_o see_v f●x_n therefore_o how_o work_v the_o speech_n of_o christ_n be_v &_o if_o then_o there_o be_v so_o much_o force_n in_o the_o speech_n of_o our_o lord_n as_o that_o those_o thing_n which_o be_v not_o take_v their_o beginning_n thereby_o how_o much_o more_o potent_a be_v the_o same_o speech_n in_o work_v that_o those_o thing_n which_o be_v before_o be_v change_v into_o 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another_o place_n ergo_fw-la didicisti_fw-la etc._n etc._n therefore_o thou_o have_v learned_a that_o of_o bread_n be_v make_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n and_o that_o wyne_fw-mi and_o water_n be_v put_v into_o the_o cup_n but_o by_o consecration_n of_o the_o heavenly_a word_n it_o be_v make_v blood_n sed_fw-la fortè_fw-la dices_fw-la speciem_fw-la sanguinis_fw-la non_fw-la videri_fw-la sed_fw-la habet_fw-la similitudinem_fw-la but_o perhaps_o you_o will_v say_v that_o the_o shape_n or_o form_n of_o blood_n be_v not_o see_v but_o yet_o it_o have_v the_o similitude_n so_o s._n ambrose_n and_o for_o that_o he_o say_v as_o you_o see_v that_o albeit_o the_o blood_n after_o consecration_n have_v not_o the_o show_n or_o form_n of_o true_a blood_n yet_o have_v it_o similitude_n for_o that_o the_o form_n of_o wine_n come_v near_a to_o the_o likeness_n of_o blood_n hereof_o cranmer_n layinge_v hand_n can_v not_o be_v draw_v from_o affirminge_v that_o s._n ambrose_n meaning_n be_v that_o it_o 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manner_n now_o he_o say_v it_o be_v true_a touch_v the_o manner_n and_o not_o touchinge_v the_o thing_n so_o as_o if_o the_o thing_n and_o matter_n be_v all_o one_o as_o it_o be_v he_o speak_v contraries_n whereupon_o doctor_n weston_n open_v the_o whole_a argument_n to_o the_o people_n in_o english_a and_o the_o absurdity_n of_o his_o answer_n but_o latymer_n reply_v again_o and_o again_o that_o true_a blood_n be_v command_v spiritual_o to_o be_v drunken_a in_o the_o new_a testament_n whereunto_o one_o doctor_n pie_n reply_v dispute_v and_o object_v that_o it_o be_v not_o forbid_v to_o be_v drunken_a spiritual_o in_o the_o old_a law_n for_o that_o say_v he_o they_o drink_v spiritual_o christ_n blood_n in_o the_o old_a law_n ergò_fw-la the_o drink_v thereof_o in_o the_o new_a must_v be_v more_o then_o only_o spiritual_a to_o this_o latymer_n answer_v the_o substance_n of_o blood_n be_v drunken_a but_o not_o in_o one_o manner_n so_o as_o here_o you_o see_v he_o grant_v also_o the_o 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command_v in_o the_o new_a be_v mean_v of_o the_o blood_n of_o christ_n so_o as_o in_o this_o latymer_n can_v grant_v they_o to_o be_v one_o thing_n but_o only_o in_o the_o reality_n and_o truth_n of_o blood_n that_o be_v as_o the_o one_o be_v true_a and_o real_a blood_n of_o beast_n so_o be_v the_o other_o true_a and_o real_a blood_n of_o christ_n which_o if_o he_o grant_v as_o here_o in_o word_n he_o do_v then_o can_v the_o different_a manner_n of_o drink_v the_o same_o alter_v the_o substance_n of_o the_o thing_n it_o self_n or_o if_o it_o do_v then_o be_v it_o false_a that_o it_o be_v the_o same_o thing_n and_o so_o every_o way_n be_v old_a latymer_n take_v but_o let_v we_o pass_v forward_o 69._o doctor_n weston_n to_o confirm_v the_o reality_n of_o christ_n blood_n receive_v in_o the_o sacrament_n allege_v another_o place_n of_o s._n chrysostome_n where_o judae_fw-la talk_v of_o judas_n he_o say_v christus_fw-la ei_fw-la sangninem_fw-la quem_fw-la vendidit_fw-la offerebat_fw-la christ_n give_v he_o in_o the_o sacrament_n to_o wit_n to_o judas_n the_o blood_n which_o he_o have_v sell_v can_v any_o thing_n be_v plain_a speak_v latymer_n answer_v he_o give_v to_o judas_n his_o blood_n in_o a_o sacrament_n and_o by_o this_o think_v he_o have_v say_v some_o what_o to_o the_o purpose_n whereas_o indeed_o he_o say_v nothing_o for_o we_o say_v also_o that_o he_o give_v he_o his_o blood_n in_o a_o sacrament_n as_o we_o say_v that_o we_o give_v wine_n in_o a_o cup_n but_o this_o exclude_v not_o the_o reality_n of_o the_o blood_n no_o more_o than_o the_o givinge_v in_o a_o cup_n or_o under_o a_o veil_n take_v away_o the_o true_a reality_n of_o the_o wine_n yet_o be_v this_o the_o common_a hole_n for_o sacramentarye_n to_o run_v out_o at_o when_o they_o be_v press_v for_o both_o they_o and_o we_o do_v agree_v that_o christ_n blood_n be_v give_v in_o the_o sacrament_n under_o a_o sign_n sacramental_o and_o the_o like_a phrase_n but_o the_o difference_n between_o we_o be_v that_o we_o by_o this_o do_v not_o exclude_v the_o truth_n &_o reality_n of_o the_o thing_n therein_o contain_v as_o they_o do_v &_o thereby_o delude_v both_o themselves_o and_o other_o speak_v in_o such_o sort_n as_o they_o can_v be_v understand_v but_o only_o that_o a_o man_n may_v easy_o understand_v that_o they_o seek_v thereby_o evasion_n and_o way_n to_o slip_n out_o at_o 70._o i_o pass_v over_o diverse_a other_o authoritye_n of_o father_n allege_v by_o the_o doctor_n as_o those_o word_n of_o s._n cyrill_n per_fw-la communionem_fw-la corporis_fw-la christi_fw-la joan._n habitat_fw-la in_o nobis_fw-la christus_fw-la corporaliter_fw-la by_o the_o communion_n of_o christ_n body_n he_o dwell_v in_o we_o corporal_o ergò_fw-la not_o spiritual_o only_a and_o by_o faith_n latymer_n answer_v first_o that_o corporal_o have_v another_o understand_v than_o you_o do_v gross_o take_v 1325._o it_o and_o then_o be_v press_v again_o he_o say_v the_o solution_n of_o this_o be_v in_o my_o lord_n of_o canterburyes_n book_n so_o he_o but_o fox_n not_o content_v as_o it_o seem_v with_o this_o answer_n put_v down_o a_o large_a though_o without_o a_o author_n whereby_o we_o may_v conceive_v it_o to_o be_v his_o own_o corporal_o say_v he_o be_v to_o be_v take_v here_o in_o the_o same_o sense_n that_o s._n paul_n say_v the_o fullnes_n of_o divinity_n to_o dwell_v corporal_o in_o christ_n that_o be_v not_o lighty_a nor_o accidental_o but_o perfect_o &_o substantial_o etc._n etc._n which_o answer_n if_o fox_n will_v stand_v unto_o we_o be_v agree_v for_o we_o require_v no_o more_o but_o that_o christ_n by_o the_o communion_n of_o his_o body_n in_o the_o sacrament_n do_v dwell_v perfect_o and_o substantial_o in_o we_o for_o that_o import_v also_o real_o as_o the_o fullness_n of_o divinity_n be_v real_o in_o christ_n incarnate_a and_o not_o by_o union_n only_o of_o will_n as_o the_o arrian_n say_v and_o as_o our_o sacramentarye_n do_v talk_v of_o christ_n union_n only_o by_o faith_n in_o 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