the Church be not nursed with poison in stead of milke And in so doing they keepe the first Table Reforme the Church judge in causes Ecclesiasticall Againe If the the same Princes shall bow down to the Church with their faces towards the earth and lick the dust of her feet as the same Text expresseth then they being members of the Church shall be subject also to Church-Censure In one word Princes sit on the Bench over the Church in the offensive Government of the Church yet may themselves being members of the Church be subject to Church-Censure in the offensive Government of themselves against the Rules of the Gospel The Examiner himselfe contesseth that in severall respects He that is a governor may be also a Subject Behold here are severall respects to wit severall objects of Judicature In the Mal-Administration of the Church the Magistrate sitteth as Judge and Governor in the Mal-Administration of a Church-Member-Magistrate contrary to the expresse rules of the Gospel he is subject to the power of Christ in the Church If it be said nay rather The Church is subject to the Magistrate in civill causes and the Magistrate is subject to the Church in spirituall causes I Answer That easeth not the difficulty no more then the other For suppose the Magistrate a Church member live in Incest breake forth into murder and notorious oppression these are all civill causes belonging to the second Table If the Magistrate sit as Judge and supreme Governor in this case then must the Church tolerate him herein to the dishonour of the great Name of Christ to the leavening of the Church and to the perdition of his soule If it be granted that in such a case though civill the Church is bound to deale faithfully with the Magistrate and not to suffer sinne upon him let the like power be granted to the Magistrate to deale faithfully with the Church in the notorious transgressions of the first Table as is granted to the Church to deale with the Magistrate in the notorious transgressions of the second Table and the controversie is ended If any further matter be claimed in making the Supreme Magistrate the Supreme Judge and Governor in all causes aswell Ecclesiasticall as civill I doe not understand that the Ministers or Churches of Christ are called to acknowledge such a meaning Sure I am the Interpretation of that high stile which godly learned Reynolds made of it in the 10. Chap. of his Conference with Hart It was accepted of the State in the dayes of Queene Elizabeth And the same Interpretation if no more be intended by that stile doth well stand with our defence But wherefore doe I put my Sicle into the Harvest of my Brethren my Brethren who penned that Modell are richly furnished by Christ with ability to defend it I therefore leave it to them whom it cheifly concerneth to maintaine the Truth which themselves have witnessed in that Modell And the Lord Jesus Christ himself the God of Truth who came into the world that he might beare witnesse to the Truth be pleased to beare witnesse from Heaven to his owne Truth and bl … that peace a fraudulent and false peace which the Examiner proclaimeth to all the wayes of falshood in Religion to Heresie in Doctrine to Idolatry in worship to blasphemy of the great Name of God to Pollution and prophanation of all his holy Ordiannces Amen Even So Come Lord Jesus A REPLY TO Mr. VVILLIAMS his EXAMINATION And Answer of the Letters sent to him by JOHN COTTON SUch a Letter to such a purpose I doe remember I wrote unto Mr. Williams about halfe a score yeares agoe But whether this printed Letter be a true Copie thereof or no I doe not know for the Letter being sent so long since and no Copie of it that I can finde reserved by me I can own it no further then I finde the matter and style expressing the judgement which I then had of his cause of Separation and the affection I bare unto his person And for ought I see the Letter doth not unfitly expresse both But how it came to be put in print I cannot imagine Sure I am it was without my privitie and when I heard of it it was to me unwelcome Newes as knowing the truth and weight of Plinies speech Aliud est scribere uni aliud omnibus There be who thinke it was published by Mr. Williams himselfe or by some of his friends who had the Copie from him Which latter might be the more probable because himselfe denieth the publishing of it and it sticketh in my mind that I received many yeares agoe a refutation of it in a brotherly and ingenuous way from a stranger to me but one as I heare well affected to him Mr. Sabine Staresmore To whom I had long agoe returned an Answer but that he did not direct me where my Letter might find him But I doe not suspect Mr. Staresmore nor Mr. Williams himselfe to have published it but rather some other unadvised Christian who having gotten a copie of the Letter tooke more libertie then God alloweth to draw forth a private Admonition to publick notice in a disorderly way But howsoever it was upon the publishing of this Letter Mr. Williams hath taken occasion as is observed by some who are acquainted with the Spirit of the man first to rise up against me the meanest of many in the examining and resuting of that Letter And then as if one Mordecai were too small a morsell to stand forth against all the Churches and Elders in New-England in his Bloudy Tenent And then as if New-England were but an handfull from thence to rise up against the choisest Ornaments of two populous Nations England and Scotland the reverend Assembly of Divines together with the reverend Brethren of the Apology and above them all to addresse himselfe according to his high thoughts to propound Quaeries of high concernment as he calleth them to the High and Honourable Court of Parliament So a Bird of prey affecting to soare aloft getteth first upon the top of a molehill and from thence taketh his rise from Pale to Tree till he have surmounted the highest Mountaines In this apprehension of him they are the more confirmed as having discerned the like frame of Spirit in his former walking amongst us Time was when of all Christian Churches the Churches of New-England were accounted and professed by him to be the most pure and of all the Churches in New-England Salem where himselfe was Teacher to be the most pure But when the Churches of New-England tooke just offence at sundry of his proceedings he first renounced communion with them all and because the Church of Salem refused to joyne with him in such a groundlesse Censure he then renounced communion with Salem also And then fell off from his Ministery and then from all Church-fellowship and then from his Baptisme and was himselfe baptized againe and then from the Lords Supper and
observation how it pleaseth God to leave me to take up the Common Reproachfull Accusation of the Accuser of Gods Children That they are arrogant and impetuous Defender I did not thinke it needfull to declare what an Arrogant and Impetuous way was seeing his Request was not that I should compile a discourse of mine owne but that I should returne an Answer to the Letter of his friend And it is an Answerers part not to Expatiate into declarations but distinctly and closely to remove Objections Besides himselfe is not ignorant of this point nor needeth to be taught what an Arrogant and impetuous way is For he himselfe telleth us in his 8th Chapter That the Civill Peace may be broken by holding forth a Doctrine or practise with rayling or reviling daring or challenging speeches which is a way of Arrogancy or with force of Armes Swords Gunns c. which is a way of Impetuousnesse But if it be desired that I should declare my self herein thus breily take it He holdeth forth an erronious Doctrine or Practise in an Arrogant and Impetuous way not onely who carrieth it in a reviling and daring way which is a disturbance to Civill Peace But also he who refuseth to subject his spirit to the spirit of the Prophets in a holy Church of Christ contrary to 1 Cor. 14.32 which is a disturbance to the peace of the Church And withall he that shall oppose such as dissent from his Errors either by violent meanes as the Circumcellians did by Clubbs and Swords and as Zedekiah did Micajah with Fists 1 Kings 22.24 or by censorious reproaches and by rejecting Communion with them even before conviction or admonition all these are wayes of Arrogance and Imperuousnesse and tend to the disturbance either of civill or of Church Peace or of both But for the 2. His sad and sorrowfull Observation that God hath left me to take up the common reproachful Accusation of the Children of God as if they were Arrogant and Impetuous in their way upon what ground the Discusser taketh this up I confesse I cannot Imagine unlesse Conscius ipse sibi de se put at omnia dici There is not the least jot or tittle in my Letter that applyeth this Accusation of Arrogance or impetuousnesse to any of the Children of God at all Nor had I the least thought of himselfe when I wrote that Letter who for ought I can remember did then keepe communion with all his Brethren and held loving acquaintance with my selfe As for these six Cases he speaketh of or rather wayes wherein the Children of God have opposed the streame of the times and have there upon been taxed as Arrogant and impetuous Troublers of the State yet were none such I willingly allow them to stand good save onely they might as well be reduced to 2. or 3. Heads as branched out into 6. But howsoever they are nothing pertinent to the Point in hand none of them being wayes of Arrogancy nor Impetuousnesse but of well Ordered and Christian faithfulnesse and Magnanimity If any of them did put forth acts of Impetuous violence as Elijah did in putting the Prophets of Baall to death 1 King 18.40 It was done by vertue of an extraordinary calling or else by the consent of the King and people then present Besides as none of the fix wayes wherein the Messengers of God walked against the streame of the times were wayes of Arrogance and impetuousnesse so much lesse were these holy men of God Impetuous in holding forth any Error or evill practise which is the Point in hand CHAP. 8. Some what more of holding forth Error in a way of Arrogance and Impetuousnesse Discusser The Distinction now in Discussion concerneth not Truth and Error but the manner of holding forth or divulging Defender The distinction doth expresly speake of holding forth things Erroneous and unlawfull either in a meeke and peaceable way or with such Arrogance and Impetuousnesse as tendeth and reacheth even of it selfe to the disturbance of Civill Peace And therefore it cannot be said with truth that the distinction concerneth not Truth and Error The distinction expresly concerneth both the sinfull matter held forth things erroneous and unlawfull and the sinfull manner of holding them forth with such Arrogance and impetuousnesse as tendeth to the disturbance of Civill Peace Discusser I Acknowledge such may be the way and manner of holding forth either with railing or reviling daring or challenging speeches or with force of Armes Swords Gunns Prisons c. that it may not onely tend to breake but may actually breake the Civill Peace Defender Then the distinction is acknowledged to have a reall Truth in it what lacketh it yet but that it may stand Discusser Yet those instances to wit those 6. mentioned in Chap. 7. are Cases of great Opposition and Spirituall Hostility and Occasions of the breach of the Civill Peace yet the matter and manner pure holy peaceable and inoffensive Defender Then these six instances doe nothing concerne the distinction in hand which speaketh of holding forth for the matter things Erroneous and unlawfull and for the manner in a disturbant way to Civill Peace But it seemeth if something if any thing though nothing to purpose be said in the Discussion of a distinction it may goe for a Discussion Discusser Moreover I answer That it is possible and common for Persons of soft and gentle nature and spirits to hold out falshood with more seeming meeknesse and Peaceablenesse then the Lord Jesus or his servants did or doe hold forth the everlasting Gospel So that the Answerer would be requested to explaine what he meaneth by this Arrogant and Impetuous holding forth of any Doctrine which very manner of holding tendeth to break the Civill Peace and cometh under the Cognisance and Correction of the Civill Magistrate c. Discharge Himselfe hath said it and done it already in this Chapter and I have done the same somewhat more largely in the Chapter next foregoing CHAP. 9. A Reply to his ninth Chapter Touching the Causes of Civill Dissensions and uprores about Matters of Religion Discusser Whence then arise Civill Dissensions and uprores in matters of Religion I Answer 1. When a State liveth and lieth in the guilt of a false God false Christ false Worship then no wonder if soare eyes be troubled at the appearance of light whereas good eyes are not troubled at the Light Vigilant and watchfull Persons Loyall and Faithfull are not so troubled at the true no nor at a false Religion of Jew or Gentile Discharge This is as little to the purpose as that which went before The distinction spake of holding forth Erroneous and unlawful things in a way tending of it selfe to the disturbance of Civill Peace This Discussion holdeth forth another way tending to the disturbance of Civill Peace not of it selfe but by occasion or by Accident to wit when the holding forth of Light and Truth disturbeth the sore Eyes of a corrupt State If per
of the City State and Jurisdiction Discusser 3. From this Toleration of persons holding but lesser errors I observe the unmercifulnesse of such Doctrines and Hearts that he that is sleightly and but a little hurt shall be suffered meanes vouchsafed for his cure but the deep-wounded sinner the Leprous and Vlcerous c. must not be suffered untill peradventure God may give them Repentance c. Defender And why doth he not aswell observe the unmercifulnesse of such States and Lawes as suffer petty theives and liars to live in their Townes Cities but will not suffer willful murtherers violent robbers to live amongst them such as are tainted with lesser Errors and it may be whet them upon others they are but as petty theives and lyars but such as after conviction doe goe on to subvert the Foundation of Christian Religion and to subvert and destroy the soules of Gods People and stoutly robb them both of the meanes of Grace here and of the inheritance of glory hereafter they are worse then willfull murderers or violent robbers The Holy Ghost speaketh of false Teachers as bringing in damnable Heresies 2 Pet. 2.1 as overthrowing the faith of some 2 Tim. 2.18 as subverting their soules Acts 15.24 making merchandize of Gods People 2 Pet. 2.3 which being so me thinkes such as do more mischiefe are lesse tolerable then they that doe lesse It is true they that are more deeply wounded-sinners are more to be pittied suppose the depth of their wounds reach none but themselves but if they be infectious and Leprous and have Plague sores running upon them and thinke it their glory to infect others It is no want of mercy and charity to set such at a distance It is a mercilesse mercy to pitty such as are incureably contagious and mischeivous and not to pitty many scores or hundreds of the soules of such as will be infected and destroyed by the toleration of the other CHAP. 17. A Reply to his seventeenth Chapter touching the holding forth of Error with a boisterous and arrogant Spirit Discusser It is said by the Answerer He that holdeth forth Error with a boisterous and arrogant spirit to the disturbance of the Civill Peace he ought to be punished To this I have spoken too confessing that if any man commit ought of those things which Paul was accused of Acts 25.11 He ought not to be spared yea he ought not in such cases to refuse to die Defender I would not say That every man that holdeth forth Error in a a boisterous and arrogant spirit to the disturbance of Civill Peace ought to be punished with death This is too Bloudy a Tenet unlesse the boisterous Arrogancy were such as did disturbe the Civill Peace to the destruction of the lives and soules of men Discusser But if the matter be of a Spirituall and Divine nature I have written before in many cases and might in many more that the worship which a State professeth may be contradicted and preached against and yet no breach of Civill Peace c. Defender There is no Error that can be a matter of divine nature though it may be spirituall no such Points as are of a divine nature fall within the compasse of this dispute of persecution The many cases which the Discusser before wrote of are all of them allowed but none of them concerne holding forth of Errors which is the Point in hand Yet true it is that if a man hold forth Truth in some boisterous and arrogant way not with the Armour of the Spirit but with the Arme of flesh He may in so doing disturbe the Civill Peace and for such disturbance be justly punished according to the quality of the disturbance raised by him It is easily graunted what the Discusser further avoucheth that they doe break the Cities or Kingdomes Peace who cry out for Prisons and Swords against such who crosse their Judgements or Practise in Religion to wit unlesse their Religion be of God and the crossing of it be such as destroyeth and subverteth the Religion of God But when he saith such onely breake the Cities or Kingdomes Peace as call for Prisons and Swords against Hereticks It is too vast an Hyperbole as if Murderers Seditious Persons Rebells Traytors were none of them such as did breake the Cities or Kingdomes Peace at all but they onely who are too sharpe against corruptions in Religion It is also further easiely graunted which he alledgeth that many complaine most who are most in fault themselves as Josephs Mistresse of him The Lord helpe the Discusser to reflect upon his own way CHAP. 18. A Reply to his Eighteenth Chapter Examining the first Argument for Toleration from Mat. 13.30 38. Discusser First Mat. 13.30 38. Christ Commaundeth to let alone the Tares to grow up together with the wheat untill the Harvest Vnto which he Answereth That Tares are not Bryars and Thornes but partly Hypocrites like unto the Godly but indeed carnall as the Tares are like to the wheat but are not wheat or partly such corrupt Doctrines and Practises as are indeed unsound but yet such as come very neere the Truth as Tares doe to the wheat and so neere that good men may be taken with them and so the Persons in whom they grow cannot be rooted out but good wheat will be rooted out with them In such a case Christ calleth for Peaceable Toleration not for poenall Prosecution according to the third Conclusion But alas here is no evidence or demonstration of the Spirit nor argument from the place it selfe or from the Scriptures of Truth to prove such an Interpretation Defender Ans The Letter to which the Answer was given gave no reason of his exposition and who ever required more reason of an Answerer then of a Replyer 2. The Exposition I gave was consistent with that which the Letter gave Tares and wheat saith he some understand to be those that walke in the Truth and those that walke in lyes now when I say the tares are Hypocrites and some kind of corrupt Doctrines and Practises and such as walke in them are not these coincident with such as walke in lyes what need had I to give a reason of the exposition which he himselfe to whom the Answer was written acknowledgeth Discusser But those three Persons Doctrines and Practises are as a threefold cord and so a threefold strong snare to catch the feet of some or other Defender What hurt doe they get by being caught Hypocrites and corrupt Doctrines and Practises if they be found like unto good Christians or sound truthes what hurt doe they catch when I say such are to be tolerated to the end of the world But to prevent his feare of a threefold cord I shall easily acknowledge that which I meant that by Tares are meant such kinde of evill persons as are like unto the good whether they be Hipocrites men of unsound heartes or men of unsound Doctrines and Practises yet such as come neere the
of the mouth of the Lord Jesus for he shall begin to be consumed long before by all the seven vials of the wrath of God Revel 16. which have bin and will be in powring out many ages before the great Harvest of the end of the world Yea I beleive also He shall be destroyed many ages before then as the Apostle John foretelleth in Chap. 20.21.22 of the Revelation And though it be translated in 2 Thess 2.8 The Lord shall destroy him with the brightnesse of his coming yet the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth as well and more firstly signifie Presence then comming The Lord will destroy Antichrist with the brightnesse of his Presence in his sacred and Civill Ordinances sundry ages before the brightnesse of his comming to Judgement Otherwise we should set John Paul at variance who spake by one and the same Spirit of Truth CHAP. 27. A Reply to his 27. Chap. Discussing a doubt how Ministers may be bidden to let Antichristians alone in the Civill State Discusser If it be objected These servants whom the Householder commaundeth to let the Tares alone seeme to be Ministers or Messengers of the Gospell How shall it belong to them to plucke up the Tares or to let them alone if by the Feild be meant the world Ans The Apostles and in them all that succeed them received from the Lord a threefold charge 1. To let them alone and not to pluck them up by Prayer to God for their present temporall destruction 2. Not to prophecy or denounce a present destruction or extirpation of all false Professours of the Name of Christ T is true many soare and fearefull plagues are powred out upon the Roman Emperors and Roman Popes yet not to their utter extirpation untill the Harvest 3. Not to pluck them up by stirring up Civill Magistrates and powers to punish and persecute all such persons out of their dominions as worship not the true God according to his revealed will in Christ Jesus T is true Elijah thus stirred up Ahab to kill all the Preists and Prophets of Baal but that was in the figurative state of the Land of Canaan not to be matcht or paraled by any other State but the Spirituall State or Church of Christ in all the world putting the false Prophets Spiritually to death by the two-edged sword and power of the Lord Jesus as that Church of Israel did corporally Defender These 3. Interpretations of Let them alone are all of them so many evasions slippery evasions sought out by the subtile wit of man to winde out from under the Authority of the Truth and word of Christ For 1. Why should not the Ministers of Christ Pray either to pluck them up out of their Antichristian Idolatryes or else to pluck them up as the Plantations which our Heavenly Father hath not planted He that may Pray daily for the comming of Christs Kingdome He may and doth and ought to pray for the comming downe of all opposite Kingdomes The Saints under the Altar that prayed against the delay of vengeance on the Roman Emperors Revel 6.10 may more justly pray against the delay of vengeance on the Roman Antichrists What though the State of the Roman Antichristians was to continue for sundry ages before their finall extirpation Yet they were to expect vialls of Gods indignation to roote them out by a graduall extirpation in sundry of their cheife branches and pillars long before the extirpation of their whole Kingdome And what though the Saints in old Babell were to pray for the Peace of the City as wherein themselves might finde Peace Yet the Saints that live not in such Anâ—ichristian Territoryes they may safely pray for the hastning of the redemption of their brethren out of the Antichristian bondage and there withall pray for the hastning of the ruine and desolation of the Antichristian Kingdome Besides Certaine it is from the Word of Truth that the Antichristian Kingdome shall be destroyed and rooted up by Christian Princes and States long before the great Harvest of the end of the world as hath been shewen a bove And either such Princes must performe this great worke without Prayer and then it were not sanctified to God 1 Tim. 4.4 5. Or if it be a sacrifice sanctified to God they must pray for their desolation before they inflict it And all the seven Angells who powre out their vialls on the Antichristian State tending to the rooting of it out by degrees They either pray for the successe of the vengeance of their vialls or else they doe not powre them out in faith which were contrary to the spirit of such holy Saints who come out of the Temple opened in Heaven and are cloathed with pure and white linnen and have their breasts girded with golden girdles Rev. 15.6 2. If John the Apostle have Prophecied and denounced the destruction and extirpation of Antichristian Idolaters and their whole State why may not a Minister and Messenger of Christ according to the measure of light received open those Prophecyes and apply them with severe threatnings against thme and their State Yea but they may not apply or denounce them to their present destruction or extirpation Yes to the present destruction of some or other Antichristian Idolaters in every age though the State may continue wasting till the time appointed It might as truely be said the Ministers of Christ are forbidden to denounce present or speedy destruction to any murtherers whoremongers Tyrants extortioners because though some of them may fall under many sore and feareful plagues yet there will never want a company of such wicked doers till the Great Harvest the end of the world Besides what if a messenger of Christ should not denounce present destruction yet he cannot be said to let them alone who is hewing at them to bring them to destruction many yeares before It is not every stroake with an Axe that felleth an Oake it may be not an hundred not a thousand stroakes yet no stroake is lost that maketh way for the felling of it at the last Neither can he be said to let the Tree alone that striketh and heweth at it every day So he that heweth at the Antichristian State every day by Prayer and Preaching He doth not let it alone though it may stand many a yeare after It will fall the sooner and with more facility for every stroake 3. Nor can it be the meaning of Christ in commanding his Ministers to let the Tares alone to forbid them to stirr up Princes and States to the rooting out of Antichristian Idolaters and all such false worshippers as destroy the Truth and Religion of the Lord Jesus For amongst all the Angells that powred out their vials upon the Antichristian State it is not credible that none of them should be Messengers of the Gospell And when the ten Kings shall burne the City of Rome and leave it desolate and naked It is not credible
Text in Isai 49.23 Discusser 1. THat place of Isaiah 49.23 will appeare to be farre from proving such Kings and Queenes Judges of Ecclesiasticall causes And if not Judges they may not punish 2. In spirituall things themselves are subject to the Church shall licke the dust of the Churches feet as is there exprest How then shall those Kings and Queenes be Supreame Governours of the Church 3. Gods Israel of old being earnest for a King an Arme of flesh God gave them Saul in his anger and tooke him away in his wrath So God will take away such Princes in his wrath that so as David succeeded Saul so Christ Jesus in his spirituall Power may for ever be advanced Defender Reply 1. We doe not alledge that place in Isaiah to prove Kings and Queenes to be Judges of Ecclesiasticall causes but to be providers for the Churches well-being and protectours of it For so much the very phrase of nursing Fathers and Mothers doth necessarily import But if they be Protectours of the Church and providers of the well-being of it then are they also Defenders of the faith of it so farre as their defence in a way of God is dispensable So Magistrates are also called Shepheards of the people as well as Ministers Ezec. 34. Now it is a part of a Shepheards protection of his sheepe to drive away wolves from sheepe-folds And it is the like part of good Magistrates to drive away false Prophets from the Churches whom our Saviour calleth ravening wolves Matth. 7.15 But saith he Magistrates are not Judges of Ecclesiasticall causes and if not Judges they may not punish Answ There is a three-fold Judgement 1. A Judgement of private spirituall Discretion and so a spirituall man judgeth all things 1 Cor. 2.15 and so may a Magistrate judge also if he be a spirituall man 2. There is Judicium Propheticum A propheticall Judgement whereby the Prophets having received a greater gift of spirituall discerning of the things of God and an office to declare the same doe judge of Doctrins with Authority Let the Prophets judge 2 Cor. 14.29.32 And this the Ministeriall Judgement of the Church but here the Magistrates Judgement doth not interpose as a Magistrate but as a Brother 3. There is Judicium Politicum the Judgement of civill power whereby a Magistrate being called of God to provide that his people may lead a peaceable life in godlinesse and honesty he therefore is called to discerne not onely what is honesty or righteousnes before men but what is godlinesse also before the Lord accordingly judgeth of godly ungodly doctrines practises so far as tendeth to the upholding of publicke Peace For it is evident in the Scriptures of the New-Testament that when Magistrates were so blindly devout and superstitious as to give their Kingdomes unto the Beast as Rev. 17.12 13. and so to tolerate the publicke worship of Images and other Idolls they thereby overthrew the civill Peace of their Common-wealth For to punish their ungodlinesse it was that God opened a way for the Turkes to breake out and destroy the 3d part of Christendome Rev. 9.14 to 21. Reply 2. Both these may well stand together that Magistrates may be subject to the Church and licke the dust of her feet yet be supreame Governours of the Church also In spirituall matters and in the right administration of them the Magistrates are subject to the Church But in civill matters and in corrupt administration of Church-Affaires so farre corrupt as tendeth to the disturbance of civill Peace there the Magistrates are supreame Governours even over Churches also in their owne Dominions Reply 3. It was no sinne in Israel of old to aske a King but to aske him before the time appointed and to aske him in a tumultuous manner with rejection of Samuel and to aske him for carnall and prophane ends that they might be like to all other Nations whom God did not approve they should affect to be like unto Otherwise had they tarried Gods time God had appointed to give them a King out of the Tribe of Judah Gen. 49.10 It is true God tooke away Saul in his wrath but not for exercising civill Power against spirituall wickednesse for he did justly exercise it against Witches but for other well-knowne notorious wickednesse And as for David we doe not reade that he did exercise any spirituall Power as a King but as a Prophet CHAP. 32. A Reply to his Chap. 32. Discusser THough for the present the punishment of corrupt Teachers as the Scribes and Pharises were be deferred yet their waiteth for them an higher pitch of punishment then any Corporall can reach unto As 1. Starke Blindnesse c. 2. Incurable Blindnesse c. 3. Their end is the Ditch c. 4. The Leaders of others into the ditch shall find their owne ruine horrible and the ruine of their followers eternally galling tormenting Defender The Discusser himselfe knoweth and accordingly expresseth himselfe in his next words That it is the like case of all sinners and of all malefactours their punishment in hell will be more horrible and full of torment then can be inflicted in this world And yet the State is often bound to punish them and in many cases by death it selfe Discusser Be it so But what is this to a blind Pharisee resisting the Doctrine of Christ who hapily may be as good a Subject and as peaceable and profitable to the civill State as any c. Defender But what is this to the question in hand we doe not hold it lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to compell by civill sword either Pharisee or any Jew or Pagan to professe the Religion or Doctrine of the Lord Jesus much lesse doe we thinke it meet for a private Christian to provoke either Jewish or Pagan Magistrates to compell Pharises to submit to the Doctrine or Religion of Christ Jesus And therefore all these Chapters from 29. to 35. seven Chapters in all tending to prove that Christs Disciples were to let the Pharises alone in this way are but so many empty flourishes beating the aire playing with a shadow And yet the rest of the Chapters which remaine must not passe without some Advertisement of such passages in them as doe corrupt the truth of Christ How the Pharises can be as good subjects and as peaceable and profitable to the civill State as any who yet destroyed the civill State by destroying Christ let any but a blind conscience judge CHAP. 33. Discusser IT is truth The mischiefe of a blind Pharises blind guidance is greater then if he acted treasons murders c. And the losse of one soule by his seduction is a greater mischiefe then if he blew up Parliaments or cut the throats of Kings and Emperours c. And therefore a firme justice that requires an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth life for life calleth also soule for soule But that no civill sword can inflict but the Lord
had been then but on his way to Ephesus which is a narrow point of time it is more then propable if Timothy had been then at Ephesus he would have said Tychicus have I sent to thee to Ephesus CHAP. 39. A Reply to his 39. Chap. Discusser BVt from this place in Timothy 2 Tim. 2.25 in particular I argue thus 1. If the Civill Magistrates be Christians or Members of the Church able to prophesie to the Church of Christ then they are bound by this command of Christ to suffer opposition to their Doctrine with meeknesse and gentlenesse waiting if God peradventure will give them Repentance So also it pleaseth the Answerer to acknowledge in these words It becometh not the spirit of the Gospel to convert Aliens to the Faith such as the Samaritans and unconverted persons whether in Ephesus or Creete with Fire and Sword Defender The Answerer is still of the same mind though he might strike in upon the advantage that if the Magistrate be also a Prophet he may doe some things as a Magistrate which he may not doe as a Prophet yet he willingly acknowledgeth that if a Magistrate be also a Prophet yea whether he be a Prophet or no he ought not to seeke to subdue and convert Aliens to the Faith by Fire and Sword Discusser Secondly if the Oppositions be within and the Church-members become scandalous in Doctrine I speake not of scandalls in the Civill State which the civill Magistrate ought to punish It is the Lord onely as the Scripture in Timothy implyeth who is able to give them Repentance and to recover them out of Satans snare c. It is true the civill Sword may make a whole Nation of Hypocrites as the Lord complaineth Isay 10. and as befell our Native Country in a few scores of yeares in the severall Reignes of Henry 7. Henry 8. King Edward Queen Mary Queene Elizabeth under whom our Nation was as ready to change the fashion of their Religions as of their Suits of Apparell which hath been their sinfull shame Defender If Opposition rise from within from the Members of the Church I doe not beleive it to be lawfull for the Magistrate to seeke to subdue and convert them to be of his mind by the civill Sword But rather to use all spirituall meanes for their conviction and conversion But if the Opposition still continue in Doctrine and Worship and that against the vitals and Fundamentalls of Religion whether by Heresie of Doctrine or Idolatry in Worship and shall proceed to seeke the Seduction of others I doe beleive the Magistrate is not to tolerate such opposion against the Truth in Church-members or in any Professours of the Truth after due conviction from the word of Truth Nor is it an Objection of any weight that neither the Magistrate nor his Sword can give Repentance unto such For neither can he give Repentance unto such persons as are scandalous to the civill State whom yet notwithstanding the Discusser himselfe acknowledgeth the civill Magistrate ought to punish Though the civill Sword should not make the opposers Hypocrites yet better tolerate Hypocrites and Tares then Bryars and Thornes In such cases the civill Sword doth not so much attend the conversion of wicked Seducers as the prevention of the seduction of honest minds by their meanes What the Kings and Queens of England have done in former or later times either by violent Persecution of the Truth or in preposterous maintenance of the Truth we have cause rather to bewaile it and so hath the Discusser too if he be an English man then to justifie it as also bewaile the like vanity justly complained of in sundry of our English Nation to be as ready to change the fashion of their Religion as of their Rayment And yet he cannot be ignorant that the Lord hath chosen to himselfe sundry faithfull witnesses out of that Nation who have continued stedfast unto the death in the Profession of the Truth and have not been carried away either with the feare of civill Sword or with the deceitfull insinuations of unstable but seducing Teachers to depart from the simplicity and Truth of the Gospel But howsoever wofull and wonderfull changes have been made of Religion in England in the Reigne of foure or five Princes yet it is no more then befell the Church of Judah in the dayes of Ahaz and Hezekiah Manasseh and Josiah yet the Prophets never upbraided them with the civill Magistrater Power in causes of Religion as the cause of it Better some vicissitudes in Religion then a constant continuance in Idolatry and Popery by Princes referring all causes of Religion to Church-men The Prophecie of Englands Revolt againe to Popery wanteth Scripture Light CHAP. 40. A Reply to his Chap. 40. Discusser BVt it hath been thought and said shall Oppositions against the Truth escape unpunished will they not prove mischievous I answer as before concerning the blind Guides their case being incurable is rather to be lamented since none but the right hand of the Lord in the meeke and gentle Dispensing of the word of Truth can release them c. Defender So it is with all scandalous offenders against the civil State none can give them healing Repentance but the right hand of the Lord Jesus in the dispensing of the word of Truth yet that doth not restraine Magistrates from executing just Judgement upon them So neither doth it restraine them from executing the like just Judgement against these though not to procure the Repentance of incurable obstinate Hereticks and Idolaters yet to prevent the seduction and subversion of others What though a dead soule though changed from one Worship to another like a dead man shifted into severall suites of Apparell cannot please God Heb. 11.6 And what though Faith be that gift which proceedeth alone from that Father of Lights Phil. 1.29 Yet better a dead soule be dead in body as well as in Spirit then to live and be lively in the flesh to murder many precious soules by the Magistrates Indulgence And better he die without Faith then to live to seduce many honest minds to depart from the Faith Discusser I adde a civill Sword hardneth the followers of false Teachers by the sufferings of their false and Antichristian Seducers And secondly it begetteth in them an Impression of the falshood of that Religion which cannot uphold it selfe but with such Instruments of violence and wanteth the soft and gentle commiseration of the blindnesse of others Defender A civill Magistrate ought not to draw out his civill Sword against any Seducers Whether Hereticks or Idolaters till he have used all good meanes for their conviction and thereby clearely manifested the bowels of tender commiseration and compassion towards them But if after their continuance in obstinate Rebellion against the Light he shall still walke towards them in soft and gentle commiseration his softnesse and gentlenesse is excessive large to Foxes and wolves But his bowels are miserably straitned and hardned
is evill c. Defender But not simply because it is evill unlesse it be also notorious and evident and convicted by sufficient witnesses and held forth with publick offence and disturbance Neither doe the Elders take away from the Magistrates the cognizance of the complaints of Children Servants wives against Parents Masters Husbands Unlesse they be meerely private and easily healed in a private way by Domesticall Government what need houshold Government if every Family-offence should be brought to the cognizance of the publick Magistrate one Ordinance of God doth not swallow up another CHAP. 53. A Reply to his Chap. 53 54 and 55. Discusser THe Author of the Letter proceeded to a last Reason from Scripture to prove that the Disciples of Christ should be so farre from persecuting that they ought to blesse them that curse them and pray for them that persecute them and that because of the freenesse of Gods grace and deepnesse of his Counsels calling home them that be Enemies persecutors no people yea some at the last houre Vnto this Reason the Answerer is pleased thus to Reply First in generall we must not doe evill that good may come thereof Secondly in particular he affirmeth that it is evill to tolerate seditious evill doers seducing Teachers scandalous livers and for proofe of this quoteth Christs Reproofe of the Angels of Pergamus and Thyatira for tolerating Balaam and Jezabel to teach and seduce Revel 2.14.20 Defender The Discusser forgetteth himselfe through Incogitancy if not through guile when he maketh this to have been my first Reply that we must not doe evill that good may come thereof For he is not ignorant that I gave two Answers or Replyes as he calleth them before in the same place First when Christ commandeth his Disciples to blesse them that curse them and persecute them he giveth not therein a Rule to publick Officers whether in Church or Common-wealth to suffer notorious sinners either in Life or Doctrine to passe away with a Blessing but to private Christians to suffer persecution patiently yea and to pray for their Persecutors Againe it is true Christ would have his Disciples to be farre from persecuting for persecution is a wicked oppression of men for Righteousnesse sake but that hindereth not but that he would have them execute upon all Disobedience the Judgement and vengeance required in the Word 2 Cor. 10.6 Rom. 13.4 Both these Answers the Discusser passeth over in silence For looke as Children where they cannot read thinke it best to skip over so men of riper yeares when they are loath to stoop to the Authority of the Truth they thinke it best to passe it over in silence But what is it the Discusser is pleased to answer to Discusser In this Proposition that it is evill to tolerate notorious evill doers seducing Teachers scandalous livers I observe two evills First that this Proposition is too large and generall because the Rule admitteth of exception and that according to the will of God Defender And to prove that this generall Proposition admitteth some exception the Discusser spendeth the rest of this 53. chapter as also the 54 th chapter and 55 th But because I would not spend time nor weary the Reader with following the Discusser in impertinent and copious digressions I returne briefly this Reply First it is wholly impertinent whatsoever the Discusser is pleased to discourse of Gods permission or toleration of any evill For first God is his owne Rule and what he doth is good because he doth it Not his Act but his word is a Rule to us He may tolerate Cain a Murtherer to live but that is no precedent to a Civill Magistrate Secondly I willingly grant it may be lawfull for a Civill Magistrate to tolerate notorious evill doers in two cases under which all the Examples will fall which the Discusser alleadgeth in any word of Truth As first in regard of the efficient cause of punishing when the Magistrates hand is too weake and feeble and the offendors Adherents so great and strong that Justice cannot be done upon him without manifest perill to the whole State there the Magistrate may tolerate a notorious evill even murther it selfe as David upon this ground did tolerate in Joab and Abishai the murther of Abner 2 Sam. 3.39 And secondly in regard of the finall cause an evill may be tolerated to prevent other greater evills As Moses tolerated divorce of unpleasing Wives to prevent the murder or other hard and cruell usage of them In either of these cases I would not deny but a murderer may be tolerated if either the Magistrate want sufficient Power with safety of the State to cut him off or if a forraine State be so affected and addicted to the Murderer that in case the Magistrate here cut off him they will cut off sundry of our innocent and necessary members whom they have gotten into their custody in revenge of him And if either of these be the case I easily grant that it is not evill to tolerate a notorious seducing false Teacher or other scandalous liver But such an extraordinary doth not hinder the due largenesse and generality of the Proposition that it is evill to tolerate seditious evill doers seducing Teachers scandalous Livers As in a paralell case this Proposition is not too large nor too generall it is evill to tolerate a bloudy murderer notwithstanding in some cases such as have been named but those are extraordinary it may be lawfull to tolerate him Now that in ordinary cases it is not lawfull to tolerate a seducing false Teacher the Commandement of God is cleare and strong Deut. 13.8 9. Thine eye shall not pity him neither shalt thou spare him neither shalt thou conceale him but thou shalt surely kill him If the Discusser shall except that strict Commandement was in force in Israel because their Land was typically holy or their Magistrates were Types of Christ The Reply is plaine and just God himselfe alledgeth no such reason of his Law But another quite different but common with them to all Nations professing the worship of the true God Thou shalt put him to death because he sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God ver 10. Neither can any instance be given of any Capitall Law of Moses but is of Morall that is of generall and perpetuall Equity in all Nations in all Ages Capitalia Mosis Politica sunt aeterna CHAP. 54. A Reply to his Chap. 56. Discusser I Come now to the second Evill which I observe in the Answerers former Position that it would be evill to tolerate seducing Teachers scandalous Livers In two things I shall discover the great evill of this joyning and coupling seducing Teachers and scandalous Livers as the proper and adaequate object of the Magistrates care and worke to suppresse and punish Defender I no where make it the proper and adaequate object of the Magistrates care and worke to suppresse and punish seducing Teachers and scandalous livers For
of it For may it not justly be conceived That the Lord therefore hid the place of his buriall least the Children of Israel knowing it might goe a whoring after his Sepulchre and it may be offer sweet incense upon it and so such false worship against the law of Moses might come to be Tolerated for honor to the body of Moses But Christ hath abolished a Nationall State or Church which Moses set up in Canaan Though Christ abolished a Nationall Church-State and instead thereof set up a Congregationall Church yet Christ never abolished a Nationall Civill State nor the Judiciall Lawes of Moses which were of Morall equity but established them rather in their place and order He that shed his own bloud to plant his Church did never abolish that Law which enacted that his bloud should be upon him who should supplant his Church If Christs bloud goe to plant it let the false Christs bloud goe for supplanting it Discusser In the King of Bohemias speech the Answerer passeth by that Foundation in grace and Nature that Conscienee ought not to be violated and forced it is a spirituall Rape Defender This was not passed by but prevented in stating the Question where it was said it is not lawfull to censure any no not for error in Fundamentall points of Doctrine or Worship till the Conscience of the offendor be first convinced out of the word of God of the dangerous error of his way and then if he still persist It is not out of Conscience but against his Conscience as the Apostle saith Tit. 3.11 so he is not persecuted for cause of Conscience but punished for sinning against his Conscience Discusser The King observeth that most lamentably true experience of all ages That persecution for cause of Conscience hath ever proved pernicious c. Defender No experience in any age did ever prove it pernicious to punish seducing Apostates after due conviction of the error of their way Wherein did the burning of Servetus prove pernicious to Geneva or the just execution of many popish Preists to Queene Elizabeth or to the english State But the Kings speech may passe if it be meant of persecution properly so called to wit Oppression of the faithfull for the Truths sake yea if it be the punishment of any for error If not Fundamentally pernicious either to Religion or Church-order and that after conviction of Conscience persisted in with obstinacy Discusser Lastly the Kings observation of his owne time that Persecution for cause of Conscience was practised most in England and such places where Popery reigned Implying as I conceive such practises commonly proceed from the great Whore whose Daughters are like their Mother all of a bloudy nature as commonly all wolves be Defender It is no marvell if I passed by this observation in the Kings speech For there is no such observation there to be found If the Discusser had well observed it himselfe he would have found it was not the speech of the King but of the Prisoner And the persecution he speaketh of was not of Antichristians or Hereticks or Idolaters but onely of such as the world nick-named Puritans or the like and of them too without conviction of the error of their way But in that the Discusser maketh England a Daughter of the great Whore and of a bloudy nature like her Mother he speaketh as some other of the rigid Seperation have done before him But I could never yet see awarrant from the rule either of Truth or Love for such a speech Did ever the holy Scripture call any Church an whore that worshipped the true God onely in the Name of Jesus and depended on him alone for righteousnesse and salvation Is it not the part of a base childe or at least a base pare of a childe to call his Mother whore who bred him and bred him to know no other Father but her lawfull Husband the Lord Jesus Christ CHAP. 60. A Reply to his 63. Chap. Discusser NOw Thirdly In that the Answerer observeth that amongst the Romane Emperors they that did not persecute were Julian the Apostate and Valens the Arian Whereas the good Emperors Constantine Gratian Valentian and Theodosius they did persecute the Arians and Donatists Let it be for an Answer It is no new thing for godly and eminently godly men to performe ungodly actions nor for ungodly persons for wicked ends to act what in it selfe is good and righteous c. Defender This may goe for a truth but not for an Answer The Letter would Justifie Toleration of Religion from the judgement and speeches of three Kings I Answered that was no Argument for I could bring him Kings more in number and greater in the sight of God and man who judged it meet not to tolerate Hereticks nor turbulent Schismaticks To this the Discusser Answereth sometimes the Godly doe that which is evill and the wicked that which is good This I say is a Truth but doth not take away my Answer but by a Petitio Principij a begging of the Question That Kings alledged by him did that which was good but the Kings alledged by me though better persons did that which was evill CHAP. 61. A Reply to his Chap. 64. Discusser THe unknowing zeale of Constantine and other Emperors did more hurt to Christ Jesus his Church and Kingdome then the raging fury of the most bloudy Neroes In the persecution of those wicked Emperors Christians were sweet and fragrant like spice pounded in Morters But those good Emperors persecuting some erroneous persons and advancing the Professors of some truthes and maintaining their Religion by the materiall Sword by this meanes Christianity was eclipsed The Professors of it fell asleepe Cant. 5. Babel was usher'd in and by degrees the Churches of the Saints were turned into the Wildernesse of whole Nations Rev. 12.13 untill the whole world became Christian or Christendome Those good Emperors intending to exalt Christ but not attending to the command of Christ Jesus to permit the Tares to grow in the Field of the world they made the Garden of the Church and Field of the world all one c. Defender If the unknowing zeale of Constantine other Christian Emperors did more hurâ— to the Church then the raging fury of bloudy Neroes It was not because the raging fury of those Persecutors was more accepted of God then this unknowing zeale of the good Emperors For though the unknowing zeale of the one was finfull yet it was the friut of humane frialty Error Amoris But the rage of the others was divelish fury Amor Erroris Besides the unknowing zeale of the good Emperors lay not in punishing notorious Hereticall Seducers nor will the Discusser be ever able to shew that the Church of Christ suffered any hurt at all by that meanes The contrary is evident Constantius and Valens by Tolerating and favoring the Arians the whole world became Arian Ingemuit orbis Christianus et miratus est factum se esse Arianum
extendeth 3. Though the Israelites were Idolaters yet Elijah spared them as having bin lead aside from the dayes of their Fathers in their simplicity and Ignorance by these false Teachers And for sins of Ignorance God hath appointed other expiatory Sacrifices then the slaughter of the offâ—nders Nor hath the Answerer any grounds or thoughts to the contrary As for the other fact of Elijah in slaying the Captaines of their fiftyes as it is not pertinent to the punishment of false Prophets nor of Idolaters as such so I doe not finde it alledged by any in this cause but only by the Discusser to make himself worke But when the Discusser is pleased to glory in his Answers to Augustine before and to Optatus here That if Augustine were now living he would be of his minde and Optatus and the Answerer himselfe might rest satisfied Let the Discusser revise againe what he hath written and see if he can satisfie himselfe muchlesse the Answerer and least of all Augustine and Optatus in such Cobweb Evasions CHAP. 74. A Reply to his Chap. 77. Discusser AS for Calvine Beza and Aretius mine Answer is since matter of fact and opinion are barely related by the Answerer without their grounds whose grounds notwithstanding in this Booke are Answered If Paul himselfe were joyned with them yea or an Angel from Heaven bringing any other Rule then what the Lord Jesus hath once delivered wee have Paules Conclusion and Resolution peremptory and dreadfull Gal. 1.8 Defender That I onely quoted the Names of those blessed men of God It was partly because it was enough to counterpoise the Names of Authors alledged by the Letter against the Truth by the Names of greater and more holy men of God for the Truth partly also because if I had quoted their grounds I must have transcribed their whole Bookes of the Argument Calvines discourse about it against Servetus is bound up in his Opuscula Beza his Booke de Haceticis a Magistratù puniendis is bound up also in his Opuscula but both of them too large by me to be coppyed and to strong and accurate by them of the adverse part to be refuted Aretius a like solid writer may sooner be shifted off then sifted to Branne But it seemeth if Paul himselfe had joyned with them in the like fulnesse of expressions himselfe should rather have been accursed by the Discasser then his Doctrine accepted Which seemeth to me a strange both prejudice and prefidence met together For since God layd his charge upon Magistrates in the Old-Testament to punish Seducers the Lord Jesus never tooke this charge off in the New-Testament who is this Discusser that he should account Paul himselfe or an Angell from Heaven accursed that should leave this charge still upon Magistrates which God layed on and Christ never tooke off That Argument from the Parable Let both grow together to the Harvest is not at all expounded in the Interpretation Let Seducers be suffered to live in the world till the last Judgement And how weake a Foundation that is to cast a curse upon a chosen Apostle or upon an holy Angell I hope hath been cleared in discussing that Text. Discusser Let me finish the whole by proposing one Conclusion of the Author of the arguments in the Letter viz. It is no prejudice to the Common-wealth if Liberty of Conscience were suffered to such as feare God indeed Abraham abode a long time amongst the Canaanites though contrary to them in Religion c. So did Isaac so did Jacob twentie yeares with his Vncle Laban So the People of Israel were about foure and thirty yeares in Aegypt and afterwards seventie in Babylon differing from Religion in both States Come to the time of Christ Israel lived under the Romans and divers Sects in Israel besides Christ and his Apostles c. All these lived under Caesars Government being nothing hurtfull to the Common-wealth giving to Caesar that which was his And for their Religion he left them to themselves as having no Dominion over their soules and Consciences And when the enemies of the Truth raised up any tumults the wisdome of the Magistrates most wisely appeased them Acts. 18.14 and 19.35 Vnto this the Answerer returneth thus much It is true That without prejudice to the Common-wealth Liberty of Conscience may be suffered to such as feare God indeed as knowing they will not persist in Heresie or turbulent Schisme when they are convinced in Conscience of the sinfulnesse thereof But the Question is whether an Heretick after once or twice Admonition and so after conviction or any other scandalous and heynous Offender may be Tolerated either in the Church without Excommunication or in the Common-wealth without such punishment as may preserve others from dangerous and damnable infection CHAP. 75. A Reply to his Chap. 78. Discusser BVt here I observe the Answerers partiality That none but such as truly feare God should enjoy Liberty of Conscience c. Defender But here I Observe the Discussers both partiality and fashood Partiality for I did but repeate the very words of the Author of the Letter and graunt them to be good The Letter had said as himself repeateth it It is no prejudice to a Common-wealth if Liberty of Conscience were suffered to such as feare God indeed whereto I subjoyne my Attestation It is true that without prejudice to the Common-wealth Liberty of Conscience may be suffered to men that feare God indeed Here the Discusser in me observeth Partiality but in the Letter the very same speech passeth for Currant and approveable But the Lord help him to remember Divers weights and divers measures are abomination to the Lord Prov. 20.10 But I truly observe in his speech not onely partiality but falshood also For it is a very falshood that I should say None but such as truly feare God should injoy Liberty of Conscience I say no more then the Letter saith It saith That it is no prejudice to the Common-wealth if Liberty of Conscience were suffered to such as feare God indeed I say It is true without prejudice to the Common-wealth Liberty of Conscience may be suffered to such as feare God indeed Now if a man should gather the same Observation out of the Letter That none but such as truly feare God should injoy Liberty of Conscience I beleive the Discusser would observe notorious falshood in such dealing And justly he might for it is one thing to say liberty of Conscience may be suffered to men that truly feare God without prejudice to the Common-wealth another thing to say it may be suffered to none else I easily grant nor did I ever deny it that the Inhabitants of the world though they never come into the estate of men fearing God yet they may and ought to be suffered to live in the world unlesse they disturbe the Countries of the world where they live with some Capitall Crimes And if they doe disturbe the Countries where they live they stand and
hearts are not forestalled with prejudice or partiality judge whether his reasons alledged to convince us of such a sinne the strongest whereof were answered in my Letter to him and have been againe refuted in this Reply have been of such convincing power as that wee for not hearkening to him must needs lie under the guilt of an ulcer or Gangrene of obstinacy and that after conviction I may therefore well call it not Chirurgery but Butchery to cut off not onely so many members of Christ but also so many Churches of Christ from fellowship with Christ before any ulcer or Gangrene of obstinacy was discovered to us Nay I feare I might speake a further word and yet I would be loath to speake any doubtfull thing but surely my memory much faileth me or else he broke forth into this separation before he gave us any grounds of his separation at all or of our conviction of any such sinne as might deserve such a Censure And whether that be Butchery or Chirurgery let the upright judge But saith he if it be Butchery to separate conscientiously and peaceably from the spirituall communion of a Church or Saints what shall it be called by the Lord Jesus to cut off persons them and theirs branch and roote from any Civill being in their Territories c. Because their Consciences dare not how domne to any worship but what the Lord Jesus hath appointed and being also otherwise subject to the Civill estate and Lawes thereof Here be many extenuations and mincings of his own carriage and as many false aggravations of Guilt upon his sentence of Banishment and the Authors of it As 1. In that he was cut off he and his branch and roote from any Civill being in these Territories because their Consciences durst not bow downe to any worship but what they beleeve the Lord had appointed Whereas the truth is his Banishment proceeded not against him or his for his own refusall of any worship but for seditious opposition against the Patent and against the Oath of fidelitie offered to the people 2. That he was subject to the Civill estate and Lawes thereof when yet he vehemently opposed the Civill foundation of the Civill estate which was the Patent And earnestly also opposed the Law of the generall Court by which the tender of that Oath was enjoyned and also wrote Letters of Admonition to all the Churches whereof the Magistrates were members for deferring to give present Answer to a Petition of Salem who had refused to hearken to a lawfull motion of theirs 3. That he did but separate from the spirituall society of a Church or Saints whereas he both drew away many others also and as much as in him lay separated all the Churches from Christ 4. In that he maketh the cutting off of persons them and theirs branch and rush from civill Territories a farre more hainous and odious offence in the eyes of the Lord Jesus then himselfe to cut off not onely himselfe and his branch and rush but many of his neighbours by sedition from spirituall Communion with the Churches and all the Churches from Communion with Christ As if the cutting off persons them and theirs branch and rush from the Covenant and spirituall Ordinances in the Church were a matter of no account in respect of cutting off from Civill Liberties in the Territories of the Common-wealth 5. In that what himselfe did he predicateth as done conscientiously and peaceably as if what the Court had done against him they had not done conscientiously also and with regard to publick peace which they saw he disturbed and stood stiffly in his own course though he was openly convinced in open Court as I shewed before that he could not maintaine his way but by sinning against the light of his own Conscience As for his Marginall note wherein he chargeth Mr. Cotton to be deeply guilty of Cruelty both against Consciences and bodies in persecuting of them I will onely Answer thus much partly from David partly from Job If the Lord have stirred him up thus to reproach me as Shimei did him I hope the Lord will looke upon mine affliction and requite me good for all his slander this day or this yeare 2 Sam. 16 12. But if he himselfe who without cause is mine adversary hath whet his tongue like a sword and his bow to shoot out his arrowes even bitter words Psal 64.3 as he frequently doth in his Booke surely I shall take his booke upon my shoulder and bind it as a Crowne to me Job 31.36 TO CHAP. XXIII HIs 23. Chapter examineth a speech of mine which might tend to the dishonour of the Separation as the reproach against Salem had done before My Speech was That God had not prospered the way of Separation which least it should be mistaken I interpreted not in respect of outward prosperitie for they found more favour in our native Countrey then those who walked in the way of Reformation which is commonly reproached by the name of Puritanisme The meetings of the Separatists might be knowne to the Officers in the Courts and winked at when the Conventicles of the Puritans as they call them are hunted out with all diligence and pursued with more violence then any Law can justifie But I said that God had not prospered the way of Separation in that he had not blessed it either with peace amongst themselves or with growth of grace such as erring through simplicitie and tendernesse of Conscience have growne in grace have growne also to discerne their lawfull libertie to returne to the hearing of the Word from English Preachers To give Answer to this the Examiner bestoweth many Chapters His first Answer is that which is not unworthy to be attended to by all whom it concerneth That doubtlesse the Lord hath a great Controversie with the Land for their such violent pursuit and persecution of both For both of them have borne witnesse to severall truths of the Lord Jesus Albeit I deny not the one party might have borne witnesse to more points of Truth the other might have borne witnesse to fewer and so have lesse exceeded bounds of Truth To make the English Churches and their Ministeries and their Worship and their Professors either nullities or Antichristian is a witnesse not onely beyond the truth but against the Truth of the Lord Jesus and his word of Truth But for their sufferings The Puritans saith he have not suffered comparatively to the other as but seldome Congregating in separate Assemblies from the common And none of them suffering unto death for the way of Non-Conformitie Indeed saith he the worthy witnesse Mr. Udall was neere unto death for his witnesse against Bishops and Ceremonies But Mr. Penry Mr. Barrow Mr. Greenwood followed the Lord Jesus with their Gibbets and were hanged with him and for him in the way of separation Many more have been condemned in dye banished and choaked in Prisans whom I could produce upon occasion Reply Paul accounteth