then these men doe with vs clawing them with I konwe not what tollerable and halfe faced alowance of a Church forsooth though an vnsound Church Or why shoulde not wee deale as roundly with the enemies of God in a trueth as the Brownists do with the children of God in a falshood Or why should we feare to make knowne vnto the worlde that it is not for this or that corruption or anye patches or peeces of vnsoundenesse that wee haue thus seuered from the Romish Sinagogue but only for that the very founteine it selfe is altogether as a poizened puddle whence nothing can flowe naturally but continuall streames of corruption And therefore that it is not nor neuer was since her general defection and Apostacie any more the Church of God then the very church of the heathen or Infidels Marke I pray you that I say noe more the Church of God for albeit in some regarde it may peraduenture be neerer the Church of God in that they haue amongst them I knowe not what rubbishes remnants and traces of some good things yet to speake of a Church indeed as a Church it may truely be saide to be no more the Church of God then the very church of the heathen or Infidels I speake not heere of the nation of the Iewes who in regarde of Gods promise are neerest of al I speake only of the heathen and Infidels and in comparison with them I say that as a lumpe of Iron or steele is no more an axe heade then either a peece of wood or stone though in nature possibilitie it be neerer Euen so if M. Some will haue vs say that the Romish Church is any thing neerer or in possibilitie liker to be the Churche of God then that of the hethen or Infidels we wil not greatly stick with him Any farther alowance we may not wel giue to the popish Church without sinne the reason is because it hath vtterly cast of the foundation of Iesus Christ crucified without whome al the learning eloquence of men or Angells can not make a Church therefore he that shal either file his pen or straine his witts to prooue it shall when he hath strugled to the vttermost but miserably striue like a birde in the lime and so flutter himselfe windelesse in his owne conceit Nowe for those prerogatiues and preheminences that are cōmonly giuen to the popish Church aboue other hethen Idolatrous Churches if a man should aske M. Some what they be it is like he woulde begin straight with true baptisme which if M. Penri should stande vppon as a slat begging of the question I doe not thinke that your D. with al his skil coulde trauel much farther that way But alowe it to be so that in popery there is baptisme yet you see by M. Somes diuinitie we are neuer the neerer for a Church because he holdes that true baptisme may be our of the church Wel what be the other good things that they are supposed to haue If you say the Trinitie I aske where in their windowes If you saye the scriptures I aske where in their coffers If you say our sauiour Christ I aske howe many of them they haue or rather howe many hundred dozen of them For him alone I am sure either as mediator intercessor or redeemer they haue not So that a man may truely saye they haue much good things but the swine eate them vp all The very trueth is let the fayth and profession of a christian be rightly scanned after the line of Gods word and it will be found howsoeuer men like to smothe it or smother it that they haue in deede none of all these things and the more they haue of them in that maner as they haue them the greater is their condemnation And I take it that M. Beza himselfe in his Antithesis betwixt the fayth of a christian and the fayth of a papist doth sufficiently proue that they hold not a soūd profession in anye one article of the fayth Howe can that be then the Church of God that venteth runneth our euery where that faileth in euery article hath not so much as one sounde sinowe to trust vnto yea and by your leaue I do not see but that out of M. Caluine himself if he were narrowly loked into thogh M. Some erect him as a piller against vs in a manner in euery leafe there might easily inough be drawne arguments to confirme this judgement of ours I graunt indeed he saith thus Whereas we will not simply grant to the papists the tytle of the Church we do not therefore denie that there be churches among them likewise again in another place in the same section he saith thus We doe not denie but that vnder the tyrannie of Antichrist remaine Churches c. Which is no more in effect then M. Some himselfe hath said before And I cannot conceiue how this shoulde prejudice the cause any whit for let vs draw it into forme if you please Among the papistes there are Churches or vnder the tyrannie of Antichrist there are Churches Ergo The popish Church is in a sort the church of God I denie the argument neither is there any consequence in it at all For it is not inough say I to be among and vnder but as I haue prooued before they must be thēselues thorough papists euen in the maine grounds of poperie and so continue vnto th'ende otherwise it is not possible to frame th'argument with out the string hault do what they can Yet rather this semeth to be much stronger against it when M. Caluin reasoneth to this effect Like as a mans life is at an ende when his throat is thruste thorough or his heart deadly wounded So when lying is broken into the chief Tower of religion as no man doubts I trow but it is in poperie the destruction of the Church followeth Marke here he saith not the corruption of the Churche as M. Some wold haue it but the destructiō of the church which immediatly after he explaneth thus If the true church be the piller and stay of the truth it is certaine that there is no Church he dorh not saye an vnsounde Churche where lying and falshood hath vsurped the dominion Ye and in the fourth section of the same chapter hee is yet more cleare for vs to this effecte Where the doctrine of the prophets and Apostles is not there remaineth nothing that giues anye true signification of the church if nothing what babble they of baptism Lords prayer and I know not what But in poperie say I the doctrine of the prophets and Apostles is not Ergo me thinkes th'argument is vnanswerable which in the end of the seuenth section he confirmeth thus Who dare call that the Church where the worde of the Lord is openly and freely troaden vnder foote yea the very soule of the Church is destroyed c But in poperie this is aparant Ergo. Lastly in the tenth section of the
Some had neuer yet any leasure to take out we cannot looke for any great thing from those cutting sermons and writings of his though he shoulde blaze them to vs a thousande times ouer wel may they helpe a litle to the lapping and shreading of the tree but to hewe it downe by the roote because the high minded hart is commonly by Gods just judgment plagued with a bluntedged pen wee neuer looke for at the handes of any such as M. Some is til he be come of a better spirit then hitherto he hath shewed himselfe Nowe that you may witnesse with me that I doe him noe wrong in all this I pray you aske him when you see him whose sweete sentences these be Content your selfe I haue made no fault The fault is in your eie and not in your penne if that you meane that my reasons are faultie in the eies of the learned you mistake the matter if my reasons were sutable to your sencelesse answers they were strange stuffe I swarue not one jotte from the cause I dealt in My answer to your obiection is very direct My reason was a very sure one For the cleare proofe of this point I haue set downe sound reasons I mislike the popish Priesthood and sacrafice asmuch as he and if occasion serue wil set downe sure reasons to shake them both in peeces Sure it is odds your Doct. neuer looked downe on his leggs but al one his feathers when hee perfumed vs with this sweete powder But howe say you haue I done him any wrong The places you see I haue quoted be you your self the judge here is neither swaruing nor falting but al sound sure and direct therefore you may see what a treasure your vniuersitie hath bred vp to our Church such a sure card as we may be bold to trust vnto if there do chance to fall a dearth of learned men in this age And in this glasse it was belike that he beheld himselfe when he told vs so confidently That there is some reson that Gods truth should haue more defence by him then by his aduersarie Wherein I dare say you thinke that the life blood of his owne conceit did tickle him a little too much In deede if he be so sure a man as he supposeth himselfe to be there must needs be more loked for at his hands then of other poore men that are not halfe so sure it is like he speaketh this altogether in the ouerweening of his owne sufficiencie to make vs knowe what ods there is betwixt his poore aduersarie and him otherwise wee see no reason why the defence of Gods trueth according to the measure of his talentes and place should not euerie way be as deare and precious vnto another as to M. Some I perceiue it woulde distemper him vnreasonably if one should tell him that Mast. Penri hath discharged a better duetie to Gods Church in one sixe leaues then euer M. Some did in all that euer he wrote and yet I thinke he that should say so might haue hands enow to subscribe to it euen of the godliest and best affected subjects in the lande but I purpose not to enter into that comparison let eche man speake as his heart hath felt comfort and God giue M. Some an humbler spirit Only this much I thinke one may safely and truely say that in all that euer M. Penri hath written though M. Some haue beprouded him I know not how many times no man shal be able justly to finde any one dashe with a pen sauoring so palpably the corruption of the heart thorow the good liking of himself as is in a hundred places of M. Somes book Too long and loathsom it were to runne through all and therefore I wil onely ad som few more to sute with the rest Your feare saith hee that posteritie will not rest in my reasons is a vaine fear My arguments for baptisme by vnpreaching ministers are such as you are not able to stir if I haue any learning you doe toto caelo errare For the knowledge that God hath giuen me I thanke his maiestie very humblye I can receiue no disgrace by anye such as you are c. How saye you is not this a medicine to giue a modest man a vomit or is not this able to make a man draw his mouth to his elbowe to heare a man professing learning lay about him on this fashion beyond the bonds of shamfastnes Why did your D. neuer read Laus propria sordescit in ore Tush he is at a point you see and goeth on like a censurer in his impious vaine telling master Penri That as yet he maketh very meane account of his iudgement And againe in another place to the same effect he presseth him shrewdly You desire pardone of me if you recant saith he you shall haue an easie sute otherwise I doe and will account very basely of you Was not the man in a golden dreame thinke you when he perswaded himselfe that the whole poize of the matter lay vpon his account Take heed therefore my masters of the fantasticall crue if you go on your course you see what will come of it certainly M. Some will account very basely of you and where be you then I know peradventure what you will saye that this base account of his is but as a man stuffed with draw that fraieth the birds but for a day or two and afterwards they feare not to pecke on his head And if you saye so then comes M. Some vpon you againe full as powerfully as before and telleth you plainly That he will speake for you if you reuoke your errors and heresies otherwise he will not once open his lip for you or any suche as you are c. And then ye are drest if M. Some giue you ouer once therefore it is good to bee wise and to looke before you leape Thus I hope you see that your Doct. is none of these nice and shamefast diuines that in the sense and feeling of his owne good gifts is afraid to make knowne to you what he can doe But where abouts dwelt he trow you or what vncurteous neighbors had he that would thus suffer him for want of helpe to sing all the 4. parts himselfe Fie fie that an ancient D. of diuinity should be thus vsed It is sure long of these puritanes that are dispisers of degrees of Schooles and thereby force men to fall a praysing of themselues whether they will or no. But in good earnest speake your mind do you not thinke M. Some to be vnmatchable in this Thrasonicall veine When you shew me the like of any learned protestant of our time I will then yeelde my selfe faltie and saye I did him wrong Till then you must giue me leaue to think that he is among diuines th' onely prince of conceyted writers in this age vnto al which vnbridled Rhetorike of his if I were as M.
the adding or iterating of th'outward sacrament can by any meanes better or increase And if that be so then doe I not see why M. Penri or any man els should so greatly feare that blody consequent of M. Somes vz. If popishe ministers be no ministers then her Maiestie is not christened For you see when this bugbeare is vnuizarded once then alas it hath but the face of a sheepe as it were and his visnomy appeares nothing so terrible as it semed before O but you wil aske me peraduenture what I say to this None vnbaptized may be admitted to the holy supper I answere that it is most true in a sorte with M. Somes distinction vz. which are knowne to be vnbaptized for those be his very words In deede if the case be so cleared without al question and contradiction that both the minister the man himselfe that is to communicate doth assuredly know himselfe to pe vnbaptized then I dare not denie but there is a salt both in the minister that admitteth and in the person that so presenteth himselfe But one th'other side where the man verely perswadeth him selfe that he is baptized and the minister hath no knowledge of the contrary though reuera and in truth there were noe baptisme at all then the question is howe these doe sinne for this I take it cannot be that sinfull ignorance that M. Some mentioneth in these wordes ignorantia excusat non a toto sed a tanto And I hope he will not denie that it is a sacrament and may be a comfortable sacrament to him that in this perswasion doth present himselfe at the Lords table though in truth he had not the outward seale of baptisme besore For where the Apostle biddeth a man to examine himselfe c. I suppose it is not to be vnderstood as is he would say thus I charge thee that among other things thou search and enquire diligintly what was done to thee 50. 90. yeares agoe when thou wast an infant whether that were true baptisme that thou diddest then receue and whether that person that did then baptise thee had a callinge or no And is thou canst by no meanes bolt out the truth thereof to assure thy hart that thou wast baptised in deed then I charge thee keepe thy selfe from the holy communion I take it I say this was noe parte of th'Apostles meaning and M. Somes owne words doe seeme in a sort to crosse it This examination saith he consisteth in saith and repentance which are not in them that either weetingly omit or wilfully contemne the holy Sacrament of baptisme So that M. Some himselfe restraining it only to one of these 2. omission of knowledge or contempt of wilfulnesse we thinke we may safely say that where these 2. be not there the man whether he be baptised or noe may be a worthy and fruitful receyuer And in this case it semeth that a mans owne very hart and conscience may be a notable light and direction to him against all the wrangling spirits in the world For if in communicating at the Lords table thou didst euer in thy life feele any growth in thy self with a desier to rise from the wretchednesse of the first Adam to the righteousnes of the second Adam if I say thou didst euer feele any inward sweetenesse and comfort in thy gratious God to a thorough peace of thy conscience and a quieting of thy soule then assure thy selfe against all that man or Angell can bringe against it that where thou hast bene once so banketed there thou hast thy warrant from the holy Ghost without scruple to goe seast againe and that either thou art baptized or els that certainly thou hast noe neede of it For as wee say to the papists touching there traditions that seeing we haue life euerlasting which is all in al by the worde written let them drawe vs neuer so many embo slements and tel vs neuer so many miracles of their traditions we valewe them al as olde conceiled records wherein there is neither strength nor power and the reason is because we haue sufficient without them Euen so in this case so long as wee are assured of the principal I meane that excellent frute of a justifâ—ing faith which is a perpetual peace of conscience in the sonne of God if any man shal thé take in hand to bring vs into a quandare or perplexitie about our christening as they cal it we neede not greatly feare what he can say therein because wee are at peace with God and therefore if he tel vs neuer so much That the popish priests must needs haue a calling otherwise we cannot be baptized if wee be not baptised then wee must keepe our selues from the communion and so consequently be depriued of the holy seales of our redemption vnlesse we will acknowledge popish Idolators to haue a calling c. Because these and such like haue neither sappe nor edg neither life nor quickening in them nor can no whit better our estate touching our peace of conscience our own very harts by the comforts that we haue already receued being able infinitely to controle them who can blame vs if so long as we are cleare from all contempt and neglect of the holy sacraments we hange all these by among other our canceled records as a needles frutlesse jangling to no vse But in the meane season what say you to him that dare be so sawcie to controlle a whole Churche and state may not that man for once sute with proud Penrie or any of the fantasticall crue I woulde be sorie that M. Some should be taken in such a tripp but if he be I must needs saye it is Gods just judgement vpon him because he doth so embitter his pen against his poore aduersarie laying pride and blasphemie to his charge I know not how often Which when I looke vpon me thinks I shoulde heare Eliab speaking in his high voice to his yonger brother David in this or the like manner I know thy pride and mallice of thy heart c. Wel let M. Penri look to that himselfe he knows how grieuously God hath visited that sinne in others and therefore at his perill be it But to make it appear to you that your D. in this his hott and eger desire to strike M. Penri on the legs hath not seared withall to gash our whole Church and state in the face let that last Cannon of his which I spake of before vz. That non vnbaptized must be admitted to the supper be coÌ„pared with the practize of our Church and then tel me your judgement For if it be cleare that of all those that are and haue bene baptized by women which of all the learned excepting onely the papists is confessed to be no baptisme at all our Church doth neither rebaptize any nor yet in that regard repell them froÌ„ the supper whom theÌ„ I pray you doth M. Some more crosse and controll in this case
then our very Church and state it selfe whose doctrine practise is flat contrary to this maxima and rule of his And that you may see into what distresse your doctor hath brought himselfe by this meanes marke howe syllogisticasly I can come vpon him for need and yet you know my Atithmaticke hath bene as good as my Logicke in my dayes 1 The Churche of England maintaineth nothing in her doctrine or regiment whereof she cannot reader a sounde reason and a sufficient proofe from the foundation of Gods word to maintain it with a good conscience 2 But the Churche of England alloweth of those whom she knoweth confesseth to be vnbaptized to come ordinarily to the Lords table 3 Ergo it is agreeable to Gods word and to conscience and so falleth to the grounde that assertion of M. Somes vz. That none vnbaptized must be admitted to the supper How say you now haue not I cut the throat of this geare if you vrge me now to proue my maior I know I shall no sooner name the man vnto you from whom I had it but you will put of your cappe straight and I presume so much of his curtesie that if you and I had him in a corner to spurre him the question he woulde answere vs as he doth elsewhere full sweetly Forsooth brethren that did even I for it is the kindest gentleman if you were acquainted with him that euer well I will not say now what I know but if you will needs haue my maior prooued doe but turne I praye you to the 5. page of the learned preface of that greeke Lexicon in 40. which was printed by Charde to his cost I feare I befoole his fingers that was the cause of it if you aske mee what time it was published though I should misse of the moneth yet me thinkes I shoulde not misse much of the yere because it came forth just at the same time that many proper fooleries came out without priuiledge Euen there I say and in the very same page shall you finde my maior prooued sufficiently and I hope M. Some will not be so hard hearted to denie th'authoritie of M. Bridges for then there is no deiling with him My minor you see is manifest by the daily practise of our Church in admitting such to the Lords table as haue none other baptism then that of women and that I am sure M. Some will confesse to be none Neither is there nor neuer was since her majesties raigne anye tryall or examination had of the matter nor any article injunction or commandement so to enquire no nor any Homily or other private or publike admonition that euer I heard of to charge men to examine themselues in that point whether they haue true baptism or no but as if it were a thing nothing materiall they are as wee see without further scruple receiued to the Lords table in peace And the like is of those that are our ministers preachers of the gospell as well Bb. as others For among al the Bb. articles and vrgings to subscription was there ever any stay made I pray you in the admission of any to that publike function of the ministerie onely vpon that point whether they were baptized by women or no I thinke not and yet it may be that manye of them haue had none other baptisme then that O but you will saye that was not knowne and at the time of their admission it was supposed they were sufficiently baptized But I say againe if the matter be so materiall as M. Some would haue it that ought especially to haue bene knowne and no hande giuen to their allowance before it had bene perfectly knowne And if we should stay till then I thinke it would go neere to craze the license of some of the graundfathers and make a foule scoure amongest th'oldest of our preachers And so peraduenture father Iohn Elmar should kisse Cate no more in the pulpit while he liued and what a shrewd losse were that Well I conclude therfore sithence The Churche of England maintaineth nothing in doctrine or regiment but she may well do with a good conscience as from the foundation of godsword For I tell you wee poore parishioners hang much on that maior of M. Bridges his and that all this while she neuer called this matter in question but admitteth both to the Communion and to the publik teaching in the Church such as haue bin onely baptized by women and neuer stoppeth nor stayeth at it nor maketh any enquirie after it I conclude I say for so it must needs fall out that M. Some was greatly ouerseene thus in a kinde of singularitie to controlle his betters without cause What I beleeue we shall haue one of these puritanes of him shortly for they are alwayes taking exceptions to something or other in Churche or state No more of that I woulde advise him if hee loue his health or his wealth either for those fellowes be so elvish that they had rather begge then haue two benefices Now for farther confirmation and authorising of this practise of our Church because M. Some seemeth to carrie so reverent a minde to his superiors that he will submit himselfe and all his writings to their censure I will here to cut of al cauils set down the judgment of one of the grauest Prelates of the land concerning that point of womens baptisme For these as I am informed are my L. of Winchesters owne words with his graue preamble and all and I thinke himselfe will not denie them Although I be perswaded that the most obiestions made by some persons against the booke of commen prayer are in trueth of no waight but rather captious vnprofitable as concerning the Church of England in publike prayer and the vse of the Sacraments to maintaine those things that be directly against the worde of God yet for the quieting better directing of some moderate minds which by occasion haue bin drawn into some scruple about these things I haue layed downe mine opinion about the true interpretation of the same in this wise First as touching the baptisme by Midwiues I can assure you that the Church of England or any that I knowe in place of gouerment therein doth not maintaine either the baptisme of midwiues as a thing tollerable in the Church or else the condemnation of those children that depart this worlde vnbaptized but doth accounte them both eronius not according to the word of God For in the Conuocation the matter was debated amongst vs wherin some of those persons were present to whome the drawing of the booke was committed whoe protested that neither the order of the booke did alowe any such thing neither that it was any part of their meaning to approue the same But for soe much as baptizing by women hath bin a sore time commonly vsed and nowe also of rashnesse by some is done the booke only taketh order prouideth that if the childe be baptized by the
midwife rebaptizing be not admitted For when it is done according to the forme of the questions set downe in the booke if it shoulde be condemned as no baptisme it would in th'opinion of many learned draw some error of doctrine and inferre greater inconuenience then in any Church may be borne that is an infinite number which neuer had other baptisme should nowe be rebaptized and all those of yeares of discretion that were dead and were onely so baptised depart without the seale of Gods promise in the Sacrament The learned doe right wel knowe how the primitiue Church and the learned fathers that liued therein shunned rebaptization though the former baptisme were ministred either by lay persons or children Therefore the booke prouiding only for the remedy thereof ought not to be condemned Thus far my good L. of Winchester The summe whereof is this That the booke of common praier condemneth the baptisme of midwiues and yet admitteth no other baptisme for feare of rebaptization And why then should her Maiestie be brought back againe to baptisme when such as in our owne judgments were neuer baptized in deede are notwithstanding let alone without any farther addition or supply of the sacrament and yet as I saide before not barred from the communion for all that Therefore presuppose nowe a man should tell M. Some plainly that in the popish Church there is noe true baptisme what would he inferre vpon that marry that many thousands are at this day vnbaptised what then Whie then they ought to be brought back againe to baptisme Nay soft by his fauor I deny that for that you see is flatly ouerthrown by the judgment and practise of the Church of England and therefore it becommeth both M. Some and me to sit downe by it with reuerence So that if my L. of Cant. shoulde nowe be baptized by a woman as being so long agoe who dare take his oath to the contary And my L. of Winchester by a popish shaueling what reason is it that my L. of Winchester should be washed a newe seeing it is a ruled case that my L. of Cant. must not And yet it may be for the true substance of Baptisme they may well goe together in one ballance and neuer a barrel better hearring But it may be you will altogether condemne this poore judgment of the Bishops as manifestly bewraiing very grosse palpable ignorance wherin though I should not dissent from you yet in as much as he is in place of on of the graue Patriarches of our church there is noe reason but that his very credite countenance if there were nothing els should in this case be sufficient to crushe in peeces a better mans judgement then M. Somes Beside that he is one of our ordinaries you knowe and the statute saieth as I take it that in matter of doubt or scruple we must alwaies relie vpon the sence and interpretation of our ordinary howsoeuer it be I hope you wil beare me witnesse that by this meanes both my propositions are as substantially proued as a man would wish the deane of Sarum being author of th'one and my L. of Winchester in a sort confirming th'other And this I tell you before hand therefore looke to it and say you had warning that if I catche M. Some once in that veine that he wil make no boanes to reiect and set light by such men as these th'one a deane th'other a Bishop and both pillers of our Church I will certainly in my next letter giue M. Penri leaue to deny Caluin if he haue but the bare trueth on his side and you cannot say nowe but you haue had warning wherein yet by your fauor your D. case must needs be the harder in that he cannot wel denie any of these reuerent men but he must withal be forced inclusiue to giue a foule checke to our Church and State Which rather then Gosser Bridges would doe I knowe him so well that I presume he would rather in reuerence denie S. Paul or any of the 12. Apostles and what a sound harted subiect is that In deede I must needs say thus much for him if he would wish me in my graue that when he doth confute S. Paul he doeth it lightly with as much reuerence as ever I heard or read of in my life wel here againe is offered me occasion to borrowe an other peece of copia rimarum out of M. Deane of Salisburies buttery booke and to come vpon M. Some once more with a dutch figure or two in this extrauagant manner Yea my learned brother are you good at that Is the winde in that doore Are you nowe come to that height of conceite in your selfe as not to feare openly to controle a whol Church or state Fye Fye brother either vnsay that again or farewell all brotherhood c. But I wil not blot any more paper with such ware as this there is enough of it to be had in the west Country if a man could light on it only you may imagine if M. Penri should haue thus crossed and encountered the doings of our Church and State what a heauie sentence should haue passed vpon him then I warrant you the streets would haue rong of that Proude scismatical Anabaptist which had so troubled heuen church common wealth c. And thus you see the ginnes that are so purposely set for an other may somtimes ensnare the fouler himselfe As to that greate scule rolle of errors and absurdities charged with such an imperiall Maiestie vppon the poore Welch mans head I knowe 〈◊〉 well what to say only if I had bene of Councel withal at the beginning th'enrollement shoulde haue bene made in parchment and not in paper For nowe being but bare paper see the ill luck of it the Mice haue so mangled the record that the absurdities were neuer worth talking of since therefore the onely shift for your D. is to get them passe by parliament if he can for otherwise to take them to be such vppon his bare worde he must pardon vs for that for if he were Archb. of Cant. I tel you we would be loath to take his worde in this case we heare in deed many times a great noise and a rusteling and we see before vs as it were a swelling sea of big words telling vs many wonders of certaine strange blasphemies absurdities and I knowe not what but when we come to examine them by the touchston and look to be satisfied by some plaine demonstration or silogistical profe then beholde in liew of this there appeares before vs a man new come out of the cloudes as it were with his mace in his hand and his sandalles on his feet as it should seme rather to make lawes then to handle controuersies pointing with his finger at this and at that telling vs what he thinks as if al the world were to gape vpon him For what els should all these pretty flowers meane wherin for the most
trauelling ouer the mountains of Arabia firste founde out this name Reformed by meanes whereof he hath as you see so daunted his aduersary that he dare scarce peepe out of dores But I pray you tell me Is it not a miserie that such vnlearned stuffe as this should drop from the penne of anye man that beareth the face of learning who woulde stand then to blot paper in refuting that which faleih as you see to shievers of it selfe For when this worthy collection is at the strongest it will be founde but a meere childish Fallax from the bare name of a thing to a thing in esse as if it were a good consequent that this and this must needs be so because it is so cōmonly called and runnes so corrant in the account of men And yet vpon the like sandy foundation as this would he faine enforce vpon his aduersarie an acknowledgement of a Ministerie whether he will or no and that by his owne confession forsooth For doth not M. Penri I praye you call the ministerie of vnpreaching ministers An euill and prosane ministery why then haue at you sayth M Some a conjugatis and if that be a Ministerie then the persons that exercise that function must needs be Ministers Will you doe so much for me when you passe that way as to call at D. Peraes window to see if he can dissolue you of this doubt if he cannot then let him neuer trouble the Vniuersitie more for shame but faire bundle vp his bookes and get him to Waltham to some other trade For if it be manifest that M. Penri do speake here of such a Ministerie as hath onely the name of a ministerie and nothing els then must M. Somes reason a coniugatis if he will not haue it to look quite Collyweston point just likewise vpon suche a minister as hath onely the name of a minister and nothing els as if one by occasion should say thus This womans baptisme is a verye wretched and miserable baptisme or thus This wilde Irishe ministerie is a very vile and abominable ministerie had he not neede trow ye to haue his wits newe ground that vpon these or such like speeches woulde headely inferre any consequent eyther of a sacrament or ministery indeed because they are so called or that the popish Church was reuere in trueth the church of God because the bell so sounded in his eare This being as you know one of pore M. Bristowes reasons in his Motiues to prooue the papists to be Catholiks onely in regarde of the name in that they be called Catholiks who woulde haue thought that M. Some would euer haue bestowed new varnishing of an olde rustie and cankred blade which was so behackled before For may not I pray you the papists by as good a proportion prooue themselues Catholiks by the very name or the Midwife of Cheapstow prooue her baptisme to be a sacrament by the very name as M. Some prooues the popish Church to be a Churche or the dumbe ministerie to bee a ministerie onely for the name Surely I cannot thinke that his very Carmen whom he likeneth M. Penri vnto will euer be dismaied with suche poore papershort conclusions as these Well to make some amends you shall see now if you please the reason of all reasons euen such a one as if you looke not to it will go neere to clatter the glasse windowes in pieces Antichrist must sit in the Temple of God Ergo saith he The popish Church must needes be the Church of God This M. Some thinks to be a sure one and it semeth in deed he hath a speciall good liking of it aboue the rest in that he wil needs after it hath bene all to be battered and defaced by M. Penri that it knowes not wel which way to looke arme it neverthelesse into the field a newe as if a gilded coate armor could any whit releeue a drooping and crazed carkisse But now I haue learned the way let mee a loane with him let him bring it into the field a thousand times and that a horsekacke if he will you shal see that I am a man good enough for a dozen as braue Silogisines as this For I faier and flat denie the argument It may be you wonder at me but I tel you againe I deny the argument yea were it openly at the Commencement at Cambridge I would deny the argument never blush at it nay I am a shrewde fellowe I tel you why doe you not see what a lame legge it hath There lacks a certaine thing the cal Ever and then it were a good consequent in deed Antichrist must ever sit in the temple of god Ergo. The popish Church must needs be the Church of God And then by M. D. fauour if he reason so I denie th' Antecedent for it was sufficient say I that Antichrist first planted his seate in that place which was once the Church of God and no necessity that it shoude be so still Nay if your D. haue noe better reasons then these as meane a Clarke as I am I durst me thinks dispute with him in the point my selfe and I beleue if a man were disposed to enter into the question it were noe harde matter to bring other manner of profes against it then M. Some hath brought with it for any thing I see For what say you to this I pray you And tell mee whether I haue forgot my Logicke 1 If the popish Church continuing Popish be in any sort the visible Church of God then there must needs be some one member of it so continuing a visible member of the Church of God 2. But it is not possible that any one Member of it so continuing should be a vizible member of the Church of God Ergo. Howe say you Haue not I as good cause to make my cracks of this argument as M. Some hath of that braue one of his of Antichrists sitting in the temple of God By the way I pray you remember that I speake not here of Gods eternall councel or secreet election but of a vizible Church and vizible members and not of every vizible Church nether For I know there is Ecclesia Malignantium the church of the malignant but of the vizible Church of God by profession also when I speake of the popish Church you must take me that I speake altogether of such a church and such members as by profession continewe popish even in the main grounds of popery otherwise if we agre not of this we shal but swarue from the question and contend in vaine This being set downe then for the first I would faine knowe which of my propositions you can denie for I am perswaded I tell you that vnlesse they meete with a very vnreasonable wrangler they are both sound and of musket proofe As for the Maior I will neuer for shame loose time to prooue that It shal lie as it doth for me open to al the worlde
to giue him the blush that shal denie it For the Minor if you shal tel me that on may be a papist in this point as in Crossing kneeling oyling sasling Pilgrimages praier for the dead c. and so continewe yet be a member of Gods Church you answere nothing For these and such like slight instances though they may be otherwise offensiue to god be not yet the things a quibus dennoiantur tales though I confesse that these be in deed of the dregs and ossales of popery and a very shrewd signe that they that are wholly drenched herein are scarce sounde at the hart yet can they not rightly be called papists only for these As an Arrian what other errors soeuer he hould yet is he called an Arrian hath his name only for the deniall of the Godhead of Christ nothing els which detestable heresie whensoeuer he renounceth though he be wide in some other smaller points he is no more an Arrian but may wel be reckoned as a member of the Church In like sort Papistry consisting of these 3. Pillers 1. The denial of the true only Headship of Christ by placing Antichrist in his rome 2. The denial of the Sole sufficient sacrafice of Christ by the vse of their blasphemous Idolatrous Masse 3. The deniall of our iustification in the bloude of Christ by saith alone by thrusting in rags and merits of their owne This being as I say the whole frame and groundworke of popery whensoeuer any man renounceth and a bandoneth this he is no more say I a Papist though not withstanding in some other smaller respects he may peraduenture justly be called Popish and so may a protestant to in some sorte as if a woman for the great loue she bare to hir husbande woulde by noe meanes be perswaded but to pray for his soule when he is gone or if a man in some scruple of conscience would in noe sort be drawen to tast any meare on good friday as they cal it This man or woman though otherwise sound in the grounds of religion may in this regard truely be called popish and yet none of the papists neither for all that In which sence if M. Some should vnderstand popishe he must needes make a verye warme conclusion of it for so might the protestantes Churche be called a popishe church Therefore vnderstanding popery in that sence that al the godly learned for the most part vnderstand it that is for a profession that holdeth of these three heads I spake of before vz. That Antichrist of Rome Th' idolatrous Masse and the deniall of our iustification in the blood of Christ. In this sence I take it my minor proposition is in it selfe sufficiently rampered against the strongest battery of the best lerned pen vnder heuen For who dare say that anye man holding any of these three so continuing can be a visible member of the Church And if a man may aske it what was that I pray you that cut of the Iewes from being the people of God Was it not Insidelitie For I take it th' Apostle doth not meane in that place that vnbelese made them a stayned or a corrupted Church but that it quite broke them of from being any Church at all I meane any vizible church otherwise from the everlasting covenant I knowe there can be no breaking of neither can infidelitie lay holde of those that are once enrolled in the bocke of life wel then if it be an aparant truth that infidelitie cut of the Iewes not onlye from being a sounde Churche but from being anye Churche at all I woulde gladly knowe what Charter of priuiledge the Church of Rome hath but that the very same defection which was the breaking of of the Iewes must needs also and that by Gods just judgment be the cuttinge of of them But will you heare any more of my arguments For I begin nowe to be of M. Somes humor that is to haue a prety good likâ—ng of my selfe 1 The church of Infidels can in no sort be the Church of God 2 But the Popish Church is the church of infidells Ergo. Remember I pray you that I speake 〈◊〉 here of a Church of insidels not that among insidels there is or may be a church for that is nothing to the matter no more is that That vnder the Papacie there is a Church as M. Some tells vs of that poore Church that is there held vnder captiuitie and that many of them in th' agonies and conflictes of death did wholly cleaue to the crosse of Christ that numbers of them forsooth held the foundation that is Iesus Christ. c. which as they be misteries that noe man doubts of so wee answere your D. that looke howe many of them did so indeede looke howe many of them claue wholly and thoroughly as he saith to the Crosse of Christ without wauering so many of them say we were noe longer papists as a Iewe by profession in what moment of hower soeuer he forsakes his Iudaisme and cleaues to the Messias at the same very moment is he no longer a Iewe but a christian otherwise it is not possible that either a papist continuing a papist or a Iewe continuing a Iewe shoulde holde the foundation Therefore the Maior is cleare that The Church of Insidells continuing Insidels can in noe sort be the Church of God The minor is D. Fulks whose lerned judgment hauing so notably deserued of this Church of England if we should nowe for once vse it not set against the bare authoritie of Calvin or Beza in this case I doe not see that it woulde be any greate prejudice or disparagement to any These be his words The catholike Church of Christ whereof the Church of England is a part is an invizible Church c. Contrariwise the Popish Church which is vizible is the church of Insidels Rome which is vppon earth is the mother of all Antichristians Nay but for spending of time it should manifestly appeare vnto you that there were nothing more easie then to dash this assertion of M. Somes in peeces and to proue against all the worlde that The Popish Church is not as he and some others woulde haue it a stained corrupted an vnsound Church but flatly noe Church of God at al For howe if a man shoulde reason thus 1 That Church that denieth the foundation of our saluation can in no sort be the church of God at al 2. But the popish Church denieth the foundation of our salvation Ergo. Taking the Maior to be so cleare that noe man of judgmente can denie it without some checke to his owne hart and conscience I would easily for neede neuer goe farther confirme my Minor by the sacred inviolable authority of M. Bridges Scilicet si sanum haberet Sinciput that is if his braine were in temper or his judgment were woorth a marginal note For he setts downe plainly in one place That the Church of
Rome doth overthrowe the foundation which by his confession in an other place is Iesus christ but because I heare that this learned D. is one of Tarletons executors and it may be he is nowe very busie in proouing of his will I woulde be loath to trouble him at this time neiâ—her were it reason to drawe him from proouing his friends Testament to helpe to proue any proposition of mine and therfore I wil for this once giue him good leaue to walke where he will and content my selfe only with the testimony of D. Fulke whose words against Stapleton be these If peeces of trueth might be sufficient to make them the Churche of Christ many heretiks might chaleng the church which haue confessed and practised a greate number of more truthes theÌ„ they and doe erre but in one article as th' Arlans Pelagians c. whereas the papists erre in many yea in the whole doctrine of iustification by faith and the worship of God Therefore papistry is not onely a scisme error or heresie but an Apostacie defection and Antichristianitie c. Nay more against Bristowe he speaks to this effect seing beside these errors of the fathers ye holde many blasphemous heresies which they neuer hold and vtterly deny th' office of Christ the foundation of our saluation therefore we iustly denie you to be of the true church of Christ. And yet there is an other place as pregnant as any of these in the 14. page as I take it of the same book against Bristowe where he speaketh likewise to the papists in this sort Ye therefore building saluation vppon good workes done after baptisme do manifestly build vpon another foundation then th' onely true â—oundation Iesus Christ and therefore notwithstanding your error you cannot as th' old Fathers erring in small matters be yet the church of God Thus you see I am not so ill befriended but that I can fetch in my proofes though M. Bridges were at no leysure to helpe me But I pray you speake indifferently is not the evidence very cleare for me is not D. Fulk flat against M. Some in that point doth he not say directly that the popish church is both the church of Infidells and that it doeth denie the foundation which were the two points you know I had in hande to prooue Neyther if you marke it doth he mince it with any of these calme and gentle quallifications as if he did allow it for a Church in a sort though an vnsound Church but he layes it down flatly and expresly as you see to the view of al men that it is not at al the Church of God and he yeelds this reason because it buildes not vpon the foundation Iesus Christe Can there any thing be clearer then this Nowe your D. had best take D. Fulke in hande and tell him another while that he doth erre grossely and that if he haue anye learning he doth toto coelo errare or that â—is one of the strangest diuines that euer he heard off or that he is very ignorant very absurde and that his arguments are pitifull and his diuinitie at a low eb or else that his judgement is not worth a rushe c. For some such pretie dagger without a sheathe would become the house well and trouble D. Fulke shrewdly And so we might happen haue a merrie worlde of it when the sicke man should fall a casting of the phisitions water and M. Some fall a setting Doct. Fulke to schoole Well yet we must desire him for all that because it is a law of his owne making that he will not be ouerhastie to confute M. Fulke before he haue confuted his resoÌ„ for so he wishes M. Penri to do by Calvine and others In deede M. Fulke is a man of singuler learning an enemie to papistes c. A notable light and ornament in Gods Church What M. Some is we will not say we would be loath to doe him wrong Therefore wee will not match him with so famous a man as M. Fulke is You may see now by this whether I be not old excellent at the Art of imitation Me thinks your D. should know the sound of this bell by his clapper I beleeue he can quickly smell out of what forge it came and therefore I haue purposely quoted the place that you may commend my wit for it is but a little altering of the names you see otherwise the case is all one And howe if the ignorant Welshman should now in some requitall be so sawcie to tell him that he for his part doth rest in the judgement of this excellent man with all his heart therevpon should will him Neuer to stand pidling longer but to go through stitch withal sithence he is gone ouer the shoes to rush ouer the bootes c. and to confute M. Fulke to confute him soundly if he can so shall hee haue the garlande and be counted the rarest man aliue c. But if he cannot which we are assured of he shall no more go for a Patriarke among his ignoraunt followers c. And if he giue th'onset and faile be shalbe sure to lose no credit of learning c. These with many other mo being as you know but the crops and flowers of his owne pretie garden I muze with what patience he would disgeast it if a man shoulde thus wipe his nose with his owne sleeue And by this you may see how much your D. hath aduantaged himselfe by troubling the printer with a number of such worthio Enigmaes as may as naturally be apropriate to Iohn a Style as to himselfe By means wherof if he should happen by occasion hereafter to appeal from D. Fulke to the word M. Penri hauing learned the tricke of it would be sure to choake him straight with a pill out of his owne confectionarie in this or the like manner A strange kinde of appealing when M. Fulkes arguments are drawne from the worde and then might not your D. well rue the time that euer he drew out his aduersarie such a line as by turning of a thredd might go neere to strangle himselfe or is it not full as good Englishe and euery way as good sence for M. Penri to say thus Th' argument that I made is indeed M. Fulks and a very sure one as it is for M. Some to say thus The argument that I made is indeed M. Caluines and a very sure one What great ods is there I pray you betwixt these two countertenors Being famous learned men both and both notable members of Gods Churche I see no such difference but that the ballance is full as heauie at this end as at that and that it were as lawful for M. Penri if he were so disposed to say with reuerence that He doth more esteeme of one Fulke then of a thousand Somes as it is for M. Some in a kinde of swelling and disdainfull contempt which he hath
notably layd open in aboue 200. places in his book to say that He doth more esteeme of one Caluine then of a thousand Penries as if that were any thing to the matter or as if the bare defacing of his aduersarie woulde any whit better his cause in the judgement of the wise or as if the trueth of God did at any time hang vpon the gifts and credit of men But now I remember me this is not altogether the bare judgment of D. Fulke alone nether for his books being as you see authorised and aparantly stamped with that State marke of Seene and alowed we may in that regarde trewly say that looke what is there advisedly set downe as this point that the popish church is no church at al must needes be because it is so often iterated and redoubled and to be proued very neere in 20. places of his works therefore I say looke what is there advisedly set downe and not by error or oversight mistaken is implicite the very judgment and resolution of our Church and State which being true M. Some hath a warme sute of it to keepe such a stirre about the authoritie of Calvine when those that my L. of Cant. saith can teach Calvine are of a contrarie judgment wherevppon I could here once againe for neede if I had olde Dorbel of Sarum lying by mee blunder you out an other proper figure or 2. to troūce M. Some with that shoulde sounde in your eares like a Iewes trumpe after the olde melodious manner Yea my learned D. are you good at that Is the winde in that doore are you still controling of our church state c. But because you are reasonably acquainted with this sweete note already I wil not stand nowe to set it in parts only you may see by this that if a man shoulde chance to tel M. Some to his face that to holde that the Romish church is in a sort the church of God is a grosse and palpable error there were no danger in it at all because he that shoulde so doe hath you see not only the judgement of a famous learned man to backe him but also the flat alowance of the Church of England to beare him out in it For Papistry being as M. Fulke hath proued not only a Scisme error and heresie but an vtter defection and a meere Apostacie compact of all errors what shoulde feare vs to say and avowe that our christian magistrates haue done wel not only with Thrasibulus to fly from the tiranny of Athens but rather with Lot and his family to leaue the whole city of Sodome wherein there was not any free place but al the body one a blister Even soe if the popishe Church be in trueth nothing els but a very lumpe masse and body of Apostacie what a proper nice disstinction were this to say that our Magistrates haue indeede seuered themselues from the corruption of Apostacie but not from Apostacie it selfe as if there were any thing in Apostacie but corruption Therefore if M. Some doe thinke he haue any advantage that way good leaue haue he to make his best of it For we are not afraide to say and say it againe yea and if it were possible to proclaime it in the hearing of al the churches in the world that Q. Elizabeth her godly magistrates haue not only seuered themselues from the plague that pestereth the city but from the very city of Sodome it selfe not onely as he saith from the corruption of the popish Church but from the very popish Church it selfe and the reason is because it is in no sort the Church of God hauing overthrowne the foundation and therefore must needs whether M. Some will or noe be the very Sinagog of Sathan And then say I as before that our magistrates haue done well that which they may justifie by good warrant from Gods worde otherwise they shoulde be apparantlye guiltie of a greuous sin which after my kinde of Logicke I prooue thus 1 All christian Magistrates are bounde vtterly to divorce themselues from that Church not only from the corruptions of that Church but from that very Church and society it selfe which hath made a diuorcement from Christ erreth in the foundation of our faith 2 But the Romish Church as is before sufficiently prooued hath made such a divorcement erreth in the very foundation Ergo. Our Magistrates ought as thanks be to God they haue done vtterly to diuorce themselues from that very Church it selfe therefore neede not M. Somes helpe to cleare them from being Scismatikes Thus you may see M. Somes worthy distinction of our Magistrats not severing themselues from the Church but from the Idolatrie of the Churche c. Is by this meanes quite quashed in peeces For if it were indeed in any sort the Church of God then woulde fall out this strange paradoxe that one and the selfe same bodie of a Church might in a sort be the church of Christ and in a sorte againe the Churche of Antichrist and that might be a peece of Iohn a Bridges diuinitie wel enough for the soundnesse of it Furthermore if it were only but from the staines and corruptions of the popish Church that this our seperation was made as M. Some woulde haue it then belike they and we are both one body of a Church though ours be as much more refined body then theirs But howe can that be when they holde not the same heade and foundation that we doe For one body you knowe must haue but one head otherwise it is a monster They then hauing an other heade then we haue we may safely conclude that they are not of the same body with vs neither doe I see any warrant for a Christian man to seuere himselfe from the bodie of Gods Church in that sort as we haue seuered our selues from Rome for any blemishes or corruptions whatsoeuer For so might out Brownists if they list get themselues a pretty pleadable shelter of defence and tel vs That they doe not forsooth seuere themselues from our congregation as from the City but from the plague that pestereth the citye Not from the common wealth but from the Tirannie that oppresseth the common wealth Not from our Church but from the soule disorders that bleamish our Church c. And if they should thus temper the matter I muze whether M. Some woulde be so curteous to take that for paiment But it is not come to that you see for our Brownists are farre of any such coulorable pretences They goe more roundly to worke with vs then so bash not to tel vs plainly though indeede very wretchedly and falsely That our church is not at al the vizible church of God and for that cause it is that they bear vs in hand they do so single themselues from vs and not for any disorders that might otherwise bleamish or dissigure our Church why shoulde we then more mince it with our papists
same chap. he reasoneth thus If they be Churches saith he speaking of popish Churches then they haue the power of the keyes But the keyes are vnseperably knit with the word which from thence is quite driuen away and there vpon he concludes That either the promise of Christ is in vaine or els that in that respect they are no Churches Can any thing be spoken more plainely and directly then this out of which places howe if a man should now argue with M. Some in this manner Where the power of the keyes is not and where the word of God is quite driuen away there it is vnpossible to be any church of God at all But in poperie this is so witnes M. Caluin Ergo. I confesse to you it is strange and strange againe to me that the vizible Church being as I take it alwaies knowne by the Worde Sacraments and Discipline the speciall and principall marke of the 3. being the worde in that it giueth life and authoritie to th'other there shoulde yet be a churche where this worde is not that where this worde is quite driuen away where the very soule of the church is destroyed where there cannot be so much as any true signification of the churche the doctrine of the prophets and Apostles being vtterly bannished wherefore I say all this is as Master Caluine sufficiently prooueth there should yet be a Church this is a wonderfull misterye to me It had neede be in deede as they saye a church secundum quid And yet if there bee nor as Master Caluine saith so much as any true signification of the Churche I doe not see but that they may bee bolde to blot out secundum quid and by good warrant make it none at al As for that which is saide of the Trinity I aske whether the Deuil doe not also beleeue the Trinitie for in the trinitie I am sure non of them both beleeue I haue heard that Demones credunt et contremiscunt Then if this be a good argument the Papist is better then the Turke because he holdes the Trinytie Then say I The Diuell is likewise better then the Turke because he holdes the Trinitie There is only this difference that the papist or the Turke may be a conuert and dye penitent so can nor the Deuil but then say I stil he is no longer either Turke or papist By this you may see that it is not then hauing bare reading or coffering vp of the scriptures Lordes prayer Articles of the faith c. Nor the naming picturing or spelling of the Trinitie but the sound profession of these holy things according to the rule of Gods word that doth make the Church And me thinks if a man consider of it well that which is aleaged before of M. Fulke against Stapleton shoulde so cut the face of these poore prerogatiues brought in for defence of this Church Secundun quid that they shoulde neuer peepe out of doores againe in any printed record without blushing shal I repeat it to you againe Ispeeces of truth saith he might be sufficient to make them the Church of Christ many heretikes might chalenge the Church which confessed practised a number of more truthes then they doe erre but in one article as the Arians Pelagians c. what means M. Some then to tel vs a tale of a Tub of the Lordes prayer articles of the faith Commaundements and some other good things that are amongst them when these and a hundreth of these so longe as they erre as they do in the foundation can not make them the church For the papists saith D. Fulke in the place before recited doe erre in many articles yea in the whole doctrine of iustification of saith the worship of God Therefore Papistrie is not only a Scisme error and heresie but an apostacie Defection Antichristianitie c. and then belike it is somewhat more then M. Some in his calme conceite can wel afforde it to be for it semeth he dare goe noe farther then to An aberration of the Christian Church and so far you see he dare goe boldely And is not that wel For it may be Cardinal Alen with all his troope dare not goe halfe so far wel for a smale resolution of the whole being as we are so strengthened and confirmed herein by the judgment of D. Fulke looke what offer the Demonstration of Discipline maketh to our Bb. that is their liues to their bishopricks the very same offer is here presently tendered to M. Some that vppon notice giuen and leaue obteined of a judicial hearing before her maiestie and the State D. Reynoldes D. Whitakers being judges if it doe not appeare by vnauoydable proofes that the popish Church is not only An unsound Church but no church of God at all and so by that meanes that M. Some is manifestly overthrowne as wel in this point as in sundry others of his tretise the man that so presents him selfe to this encounter wil aske no fauor but willingly submit himselfe to such heauye censure punishment as shalbe thought meete for so rash a disturber of the peace of the Church There is yet an other point in your D. booke that in my conceite his frinds may aswel couer with a curteyne as any of the rest and that is his loose defence of Bare reading and pronouncing the words of th'institution by Dumbe Ministers M. Penri denying that vnpreaching Ministers doe adde an edifying worde to the Element M. Some wil proue it you shal see But first you must giue him leaue to warme himselfe a little at the Magistrates fire for it may be his handes are a colde And then when he hath stirred the coales a while for the better conjuring of his aduersarie you shall see him proue his Anticedent as I beleeue you haue not seene many Anticedents prooued by a D. of diuinitie in your life My Anticedent was saith he that vnpreching Ministers doe ad an edifieng worde to th'Element very wel and will you haue this prooued nowe Then take this with you for a paterne The summe of Cbristes Sermon in th'institution and administration of the holy Supper is the very same that we vse here in the Church of England Ergo. vnlesse we will denie the summe of Christs Sermon to be an edifiing worde we must confesse we haue verbum aedisicans c. and what is this els but as M. Some saith to proue that Midnight is not high Noone and yet I haue hearde that with the Antipodes our midnight is there high noone Neuerthelesse M. Some wee thanke him for his cost bestoweth aboue 20. lines to prooue this deepe mistery vnto vs paraphrasing vpon it full demurely So that eare he haue done withal I dare lay a good wager he wil make it as cleare as it was before that it was cleare enough That the worde of institution the summ of Christs Sermon doth edifie which if Blinde Bartemeus coulde not haue spied yet I
no sacramét vnlesse he be a minister that deliuers it Is this to make the sacrament depend vpon the person or the person to giue credit to the sacrament I think not no more is it of the word And who seeth not that when he speaketh here of the persons he meaneth not as M. Some wold seem to enforce of the dignity or worthines of the persons or barely of the persons themselues as they be of men for that were too childishe but onely of the Calling and office of the parsons whiche being the holy ordinance of God prescribed in the worde what incongruitie or absurdity is it for the Lord to restrane th'ordinarie blessing of edification to his owne ordinance as if he should say My word is in deed the worde of life neuertheles if any man abuse it or profane it if any man presume to deale withall that hath no calling or warrant therevnto let him neuer looke that I will bloue vpon it with my spirit And who dare saye that there is or can be edification where the Lorde breatheth not with his spirit Therefore let M. Some say what he wil there can be neither error nor heresy to make not the person but the holy calling of the person that is the Lords owne ordinance to giue a majesty credite to his owne worde which in trueth is nothing els but to make the very word giue a credite to the word and so it is Autopisos still Now for his maner of writing I rest euen of the same judgment I was when the book came first into my hands you know what I then told you vpon the first taste of it I dare warrant you you shall finde it to be true for he is all in his short cuts questions like prety apothegs What say you to 40. ful points in 50. lines to 30. ful points in 33. lines to 6. ful points in 4. lines to 4. ful points in 3. lines Nay in one place about the pa. 76. as I remeÌ„ber he hath more full points then lines yen in that space that Iohn a Bridges hath one period I dare be bound M. Some hath 50 or vpward And is not that sententiously written Nay farther let his whol book be wel viewed I meane his last book which of it self is not much aboue 40. leaues that in a large letter such as consumeth a great deal of paper in a little matter I dare vndertake you shal finde aboue 1500. full points So that whereas in one place he telleth his aduersary that vnles it be granted him that vnpreaching ministers haue no calling he is at a ful point his aduersary may now justly reply vpoÌ„ him vnles the contrary be graunted him he is at a 1000. ful points And I pray you tel me are not his lungs in gret danger thinke you that he is so short winded that he can scarce tie 2. propositioÌ„s togither in mood figure I promise you for mine owne part I am halfe afraid of him if he look not to himself in time Wel I could tel M. Some a notable receipt for this shortnes of breath if he woulde be ruled by me Firste he must crosse the Thames no more towards Lambeth for the moistues of the air so nere the water side is very dangerous heÌ„ the closenes of London streats is perilous for the stop ping of his pipes more the great fare entertainmeÌ„t about the court at Bb. houses may breede in time a Lethergie therfore his only way if he loue his helth must be to get him into the country in th'open aire to make his onely residence ordinary aboade vpon Gyrton benefice shaking of all other appendixes and hangbies whatsoeuer euen there in loue and consience to take pains with his poore parishuers aswel by publike teaching catechising of them as by priuate admonishment familiar conferences seeking to win them by all other good godly means that the Lord hath prescribed in his word And let him ask M. Grenham whether this be not an excelent medicine for the shortnes of the breath I warrant you he hath tried it and hath found good of it for he hath winde at wil ye see as shril pipes as most men Nowe M. Some may chuse he hath my direction for nothing if I might see his water I might happen tell him more I knowe there be other paltry practicioners in Phisike that wil aduise him otherwise but let him take it of my word it wil not be so good for him in the end For it is sure this short windinesse and nothing els that makes him thus in a kinde of kingly maner with so many vncontrollable periods to debate with vs I agree with you in this I dissent from you in this strange sansies haue almost consumed you your reuerence I make very base account of I thinke great scorne I tell you to be one of ignorant Penries disciples c. Sure your D. perswadeth himselfe I beleeue that looke what he saith it is a statute straght otherwise he woulde neuer come vppon his poore aduersary in this jumping manner Wel for all that if he can make shift with all the skill he hath to fetch a jump froÌ„ his benefice at Girton to some sweet Deanry or Bishopricke it wil sure be one of the pretiest jumps that euer he made in his life There be of his betters that haue made such Alemaine leapes in their dayes and thereby may the better direct him the way if neede be how thinke you by these jumps From Peter house to Penbrooke hall from thence to Trinitie Colledge from thence to Lincolne from Lincolne to Worcester from Worcester you knowe whither But were not these vengeable steps Wel let your D. looke to it for I haue knowne a man bursten in my daies with fetching such strides And this I feare me is the blessinge that he so often harpeth vpon as wel in his preface as in his booke It pleased God saith he to assist me graciously in my paines I haue taken I thanke his maiestie very humbly for it And I doubt not but he will giue ablessing vnto it And againe in an other place I was desired saith he to prouide a plaster I did so and God hath giuen a blessing to it And yet againe I doubt not but that blessing which god hath giuen already to my last tretise which his maiestie wil giue to this wil marre your market And last of all he closeth vp the mouth of all with this My comforte is that almightie God will blesse this labor But you may tel M. Some when you see him that I haue hearde of a man whoe dreaming of golde overnight had but an ilfauored mishap in the mornning These hasty promises of golden mountaines had neeede wee suppose haue better grounds then these dreaming conceipts and fansies of men For vnlesse it be some such blessing as I spake of before namly some hope or promise of promotion which is not so priuiledged neither but that it may end in bitternesse I durst me thinks in this case stand betwixt M. D. and the danger of any other greate blessing that may befall him As to those high wordes of his that he thinketh soule scorne to be one of ignorant Penries disciples c. Considering howe rightly it sorteth with the rest of his rhetoricke it can neither bring any grace to him selfe nor disgrace to his aduersatie Alasse it doeth but lay open the rottennesse and corruption of his harte being very far from that spirit that teacheth Let the greatest among you be as the least c. It is wel enough knowne that there be M. Somes betters I meane in learning and judgment that wil not refuse even in the feare of God to learne somtimes of far meaner men in gifts then ever M. Penri was whome howe the Lord hath blessed in plentiful measure that way his aduersaries themselues haue bin forced to acknowledge but I woulde you would aske M. Some when you see him where was Humile peccatum when he did thus treade vpon his aduersarie with a disdainfull foote Well to correct this bad humor of his you may doe wel to referre him to Apollos in the 18. of th' Act. who though he were an eloquent man mightie in the Scripture informed in the way of the Lord and seruent in the spirit yet saith the text did he not disdaine to learne of Aquila Priscilla who expounded vnto him the way of God perfectly wherevpon our Bb. owne note in the margent is this which we presume M. Some will giue eare vnto with reuerence Apollo say they being a learned man was not ashamed to be taught instructed in the doctrine of Christ of a poore crafts man his wise what great disparagement then coulde it be for such a man as M. Some is were he as great as an Archb. or a Cardinal to learne some small trifling things of of a poorer and meaner student because he knoweth that the Lord somtimes chooseth the weake thinges of the world to confound the wise And therefore he that shoulde wish your D. lesse learning more modestie shoulde I suppose wish him no hurt Thus haue you my verdicte because you requested it I confesse I haue bin too longe but it is my falt wherein as in any thinge els I am very wel content you shal censure me as you please I. G. 185 Master Some hath in his book aboue 400. naked assertions 54. M. Somes Booke cases 184. Mast. Sines booke cases This preacher as I vnderstoode since vvas M. Some himselfe 81 176 174 91 The recognisance that M. Bridges standeth bound in 8â— 163 175 4â— 192 119 97 66 150 81 Matth. 17. 66 71 70 69 87 96 132 102 103 179 147 144 94 73 66 139 66 82 83 143 67 92 35 130 114 10 181 172 Pag. 21 11 92 90 92 92 My Lord of vvinchesters judgement touching those that are baptized by Midvviues 183 73 140 120 97 119 137 136 47 48 187 175 176 162 114 166 144 176 183 102 147 166 Consu Sâ—nd of Imag. 168 Contra. Stapl Fort. pag. 35. Rejond to Bâ—istovv pag 10. Rejond 14. 143 168 177 147 155 18â— 80 168 Rejond to Bristovve pag. 5. Institut lib. 4. cap. 2. sect 1. Contra. Siaple pag. 35. 149 150 98 120 120 118 preface 177 198 Luke 22. 26.
agreable to the worde you think absurdly or thus if you hold that a man may be anonrestdent from his charge at his pleasure you erre grosly or thus if you say that the Discipline gouernment of the Church is not prescribed in the word that Moses was amore faithful lawgiuer then Christ our Sauiour you speake blaspemously Why what is al this to M. Some For he is not sure so grosse to maintaine any of these and therefore wee doubt not but he may wipe his mouth and washe his hands and wonder to whome they speake Euen soe may M. Penri I dare warrant for the other whoe though he be shrewdly threatened by many of these rigorous and thundering Statutes of M. Somes yet so longe as euery one of them haue their gentle desaisans there is no danger in any of them for Threatened men they saye liue long if M. Penri doe so or so then saith M. Some he speaks blasphemously he ers grosly thinks absurdly and I knowe not what But if he doe not soe then belike he hath his supersedeas and discharge from errors absurdities blasphemies and al. This is some comfort yet and may happen fall out wel in th'issue for these isfs imaginations supposalls of men do weigh so light in the ballance of the wise that they may as easely with one and the same breath be defaced as euer they were coyned at the first for who can let a man to batter in peeces that prety Image which he made himselfe Therefore for a full answere to all these isss if I were as M. Penri I would no more but faire lappe vp this sentence in some letter and send it M. Some of a toaken to see whether he knowe it or noe I deale plainly with you If my answers please you not confute them directly and not with iffes ands whyes In which kinde of answering if I may cal it answering you haue a speciall grace And againe man other place When you prooue this if of yours I will accept your answere c. Me thinks when M. Some looks in this glasse he shold neuer trouble the reader more with any of those conjecturall syllogismes made onely of iffes and ands As concerning this last iff of hâ—s I hope there is no man so farre gone to pronounce any definitiue sentence vpon all those that departed this life in popery That being th'onely office of God him selfe it must needs be too much presumption and beyond the reache and commission of any mortall man so to define But if it had pleased M. Some to haue added but one word more to his sentence set it down thus All the popish sort that dye papistes in the popishe Church If I say he had added but this word papist theÌ„ do I not see by his fauor hat there had bene any absurditie in it at al For we hold that to him that dieth a papist let him do neuer so many good workes and buâ—lde if it were possible ten thousande Colledges or Churches the verie gates and porteculleses of Gods mercie are quite shutt vp and all those his glorious work how sweet soeuer they may be to others shall be but wrack and misery to himself And in this point if either M. Hooker M. Some or all the reuerend Bb. of the land doe stand against vs it shall little dismaie vs we say wâ—th your owne D. but yet not altogether as he Iâ—sâ—er mille he saith Platonis but we say veritatis calculus Now if you tell me that a man may returne at the last gaspe and so renouncing all other meanes cast him selfe wholly vpon the merits and bloodsheading of Chrâ—ste Iesus as M. Some saith in one place That many of them haue died Gods seruants then say I this man dieth not a papiste whatsoeuer he were before Nay M. Foxe saith flatly he dieth a Lutheran for Iustification by merit and works is the very heart life and soule of papistrie By these and the rest it may easily appeare to you that your D. might very well haue spared the better halfe of his paines and haue done full as much good as he hath They say it is an euill bargaine that no bodie thriues by Therefore if it should fall out so nowe that for all these sweete lessons drawne with such advisement into seuerall chapters neither M. Some himselfe should be the more reuerenced nor M. Penri his disciples the better instructed what should a man say to this world but that Satione belike had a frowning aspect when the bookes were sent to the presse Now if you aske me what should be the reason why so many things out of question shoulde be thus jumbled enterlaced as it were in one rolle with things of question and controuersie indeede let this suffize you that there is a misterie in it yea and such a misterie as peraduenture euerie one seeth not I beleeue I could go neer to gesse where M. D. learned it I pray you what cal you him that giueth in his coat An asse with a tippet about his necke and writes vnderneath Come and see He should sure be some ancient gentleman by his coate I meane that proper scholler that could speake Englishe before I was borne hee that hath giuen Calvine and Beza suche a blowe as they could neuer speake word of good Irish since I meane him that sucked so long till he could carie his mother a stoole and that phisitions say is a shrewde thing for the brain That pretie pigeon that wrote the 16. great volumes in defence of the Hierarchie of Bb. but as he hath handled it it may serue aswell for the foule cawsey betwixt Glocester and Bristow I doe not meane Tarleton man Tushe no I meane that musicall Poet that can so ingeniously translate rime into prose and prose into rime againe That patch of S. Maries pulpit what should I call him Bridges Bridges a shame on him I shal hit on his name anon This is he I feare me that taught M. Some this tricke and yet when it is looked into it wil be found but a sluttish tricke neither I beleeue This Bridges you must vnderstand is bound in a recognisance The condition is this That if euer he hurt puritane by any learning reason logicke diuinitie or good gramaticall sense then he sorsaits al that euer he hath to her Maiestie and is vtterly vndone for euer Now because he hath a pretie good will to hurt them and yet this Recognisance standes so full in his waye that he cannot well do it without his losse see what a fetch that ioule of his hath coÌ„triued he brings mee in after his patched manner certaine assertions which himself doth not wel vnderstaÌ„d neither Som of the Frenchmen against the gouernment of women some of th'anabaptists against the lawfulnes of magistracie some of the Brownistes that saye we haue no Church And these forsooth he mingleth as wel as his reach will serue him like
darnell among wheat with such other sounde doctrines and grounded truethes as his brethren haue set downe in defence of Discipline and euery hand while he bids them Beware least they fall into any of those soule errors for their speaches and writings tend shrewdly that way which he for his part good man is sorie for And why doth the patch doe this but only to draw the state to beleue if he could that his puritane brethren whom he writeth against are in one and the same predicament with these As if the state were as bleare eyed as himselfe and coulde not discerne both of the soundnes of the one of the wretchednesse of the other vnlesse they borowed his glasse to looke in And were not that state in an wofull taking thinke you that should fetch their paterne of direction from suche an Astrologer as he By the way nowe I thinke on it I woulde you could get M. Some marrie it must be in his good moode when his choller is past to tell you betwixt you two whether hee thinkes the better scholler in good earnest the poore ignorant Welshman or the deane of Sarum I know he hath alreadie past his sentence of condemnation verye farre vpon one of them making him in all good knowledge no better then a very abject of the earth but what then yet me think on th' other side he shoulde neuer looke aduisedly vppon his brother Bridges but he should blush for joye And this offer I dare be bolde to make him on the behalfe of that worthie deane that let him take into his handes not onely M. Penries workes but the writings of all those that they call puritanes for the space of these twenty yeares or better if I do not finde more grosse proud popish treasonable blasphemous absordities more impudent reuilings and slaunderous vntrueths more apparant contradictions more Skoggins jeasts more ryming in prose more childish foolerie more sottish shamelesse and sencelesse periods in that one booke alone then can justly be collected out of all the other I will loose my head for it And yet would you thinke that in this learned and lightsome age of the Gospel any mans eies should be so beglazed or his forehead so beseared as to bestowe a laudate vppon such a companion as this Nowe sure we shall come to a pretty passe shortly what trowe you wil be the next peece of work that that good fellowe wil venter to commend vnto vs Belike the vertuous attempts of the Spanish Inquisitors prouided that they will not disturb th'ierarchie of L. Bb. Som sweet Admonition to the people of England in praise of such honest men as these would sure maruelous wel with that sauage comendation of Parson Bridges his boâ—ke They say it was my L. of Winchesters worke If it were then hath his L. woone his spurrs for euer if in nothing els yet in this that he haâ—h so lâ—berally bestowed a cold piece of pasty crust vpon that packsadle of Sarum wel whosoeuer it were if it were an Oxford man I must needs be sory for him because his honestest shift must be nowe to pleade ignorance That he by his troth tooke it to be a profound piece of worke in his poore conceit otherwise if he be learned and of judgment in deede what neede the puritans write against him when his owne very hand hath bene th' instrument to giue himselfe such an open brandmarke of impudencie as if he should liue th'age of Methuselah he should hardly be able to wipe it out being a thing vnpossible that any man of sound judgment should euer commend that booke in earnest but that the very light of his owne hart must straight flashe him in the face with the lye And I would they durst put their Lordly jurisdictions vpon the jumpe of this tryall I woulde I say they durst hazard their whole title vpon this issue whether that be an ignorant or a learned book or noe They haue had heretofore many a round offer of disputation touching the vnlawfulnes of their callings which I will neuer blame them if they brooke not for if they would accept of it their case beinge with them as it is they were worse then madde but this is some thing a lesse offer then that and of lesse prejudice and disgrace vnto them because it toucheth them but a latare as it were only in this that they haue not blushed to commend this booke vnto vs for the sufficiencie and wee one the other side hold the slat contrary that it was one of the reproches of our Lande that euer it was suffered to passe the presse Nowe in this case whoe must be judge If I shoulde name Oxforde men vnto you it may be you woulde thinke me partial Therefore seeing M. Bridges himselfe is a Cambridge man let him hardly be tried by his peeres of the same vniuersitie and let the grandfathers if they dare put it to the censure of D. Fulke D. Whitaker M. Cartwright and M. Chaterton men I hope as wel able to judge as al the L. Bb. in Christendome And if by the veredict of these it be not founde as I haue saide one of the poorest grossest and rawest piece of woorks of that bignes that came out in English since her Maiesties raigne let the conquest hardly be theirs and let them possesse their seats in peace and the reproch light one the puritans for euer if otherwise then let them yeelde themselues guiltie and resigne But I beleue as wel as they loue M. Bridges they had rather see him ouer the eares in purgatorie or fast bound in the house of Inquisition then to hazard the least of their Bishopptickes vppon any such triall With what reason then can M. Some so distemper himselfe against M. Penri for one poore error if it be an error crying out so loude and so often blasphemy blasphemy and I knowe not what and in the meane time suffer that clotheade of Sarum to go away with a whole fardle of errors and absurdities and not to say Black was his eie Or what measure call you this not to giue M. Penri leaue to dissent from Caluin for once no not euen there where he supposeth he hath the worde one his side and to ride by M. Bridges as if he sawe him not when he taketh vppon him to treade both Caluin and Beza vnder his feet yea and to throw dust as it were one their faces euen in those points where al the learned knowe they haue both the Scriptures the counsels and fathers with them Surely there can be noe indifferencie in this at all M. Bridges saith that his good and learued discoursing brethren for those I take it be his words doe erre fowly and fall into a number of monstrous and impossible absurdities and why Forsooth through th'ouermuch credite of these famous men Caluin Beza Daneus and the rest But howe shall wee doe nowe M. Some coms in the necke of this with his appeale and