Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	8,046	5	9.4741	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85314	Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1652 (1652)	Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624	107,263	123

adversaries that trouble our Reformation I thought to have taken occasion here to cleare my selfe from what Mr. Edwards had writ concerning me but the man being dead I rather let it alone for sin I thanke God he hath charged me with none I know if ever the Lord bring such an unworthy wretch as I am to heaven I shall not beare Mr. Edwards a grudge for what unkindnesse he hath offered to me here But whereas Mr. Edwards hath branded me for an Independent some of miserable Colchester have told me that I have altered my principles but I know no reason why the one should charge me to be an Independent nor the other for departing from my principles for I never declared any thing in publike but onely once which was concerning the matter and forme of a visible Church for the government of the Church never troubled me but how to have the people reformed and scandalous persons debarred from the seales of the Covenant and persons brought into a posture fit for Discipline but what is this to Independency Once also I expressed this that I conceived a Church organized and walking regularly might execute all the power of the Keyes within it self I never expressed any thing more there concerning Church-worke but did labour to keep alive the old truths which I found my heart had more need of then to preach about Church-government in such a Towne as that was But if you say though I did not expresse it openly yet I was an Independent in my judgement but how can men charge me with that whi●c neither in publike nor private they ever heard me expresse but then to deale plainly I shall set down what manner of Independent then I was and then you shall see how much I am altered In these points I did joyne with the Congregational-men First I thought none but visible Saints to be fit matter for a Church Secondly So the Belgick Churches I thought a promise from the people to subject themselves to Church-discipline was of very great concernment to carry on Discipline with strength and comfort as likewise to subject themselves to all other Ordinances as became Christians Thirdly though I did owne the Churches of England for true Churches yet because for want of Catechising and Discipline they were overgrowne with ignorance and prophanenesse I did desire the grosly ignorant and prophane to stay a while before I gave t heir children the seale of Baptisme that having got knowledge and conversation freed from scandall the Ordinance might be administred with more comfort Fourthly I thought that if Churches were now constituting the Officers should not receive any into Church-fellowship against the consent of the people giving sufficient proofe against them Fifthly I thought the Officers ought not excommunicate any person If the people did not consent to them not that a Church must be obstructed if two or three have a minde to be crosse Sixtly I thought a particular Church organized to be the first subject of the power of the Keyes and according as Mr. Cotton held it out but this I did not expresse publikely Seventhly I did somewhat question whether the Officers of one Church had power to excommunicate in another Church But in these points I was no Independent First I could not be clear that the people were the first subject of the power of the Keyes Secondly neither that the Fraternity had power to ordain formally Thirdly that a Minister should preach onely as a gifted broth er out of his owne place Fourthly I could not consent to have the godly people taken away from a godly Presbyterian into an Independent Church Fifthly I could not approve that Independent Churches should refuse to communicate with Presbyteriall Churches though there were good store of visible Saints for want of an explicite Covenant By this time I hope I shall be no ranke Independent But where is then my thanging of my principles let these men prove it for I am the same still onely since I read Mr. Hudson I doe somewhat waver about the first subject of the Keyes and this is all my change That my minde may be cleared against whom I write I observe Separatists are not all of a size some separate from Ministers Churches and get into their private houses owne no officers but please themselves with their owne gifts and opinions these are the persons whom I chiefly aime at as such that so trouble us that no Church-discipline can hold so long as they stand Others live in places where there are visible and reall Saints the Ministry godly and able yea it may be called to the place by these persons but because they cannot have all they would picking a quarrell with the Ordination of their Minister c. they choose some other Minister in some other Towne and so depart from the Prebyterial to a Congregational Church continuing still in the same Parish It is well these men hold up Ordinances and Officers yet the grounds of their practice the ensuing Discourse will try I am sure peace and unity among Churches cannot possibly stand with this practice it is very sad that we should not yeeld a little where we may nay where we ought for peace with our brethren whom we cannot but judge holy and sincere If there should sometimes fall out a quotation somewhat sharp yet I pray doe not thinke that I apply it to all Separatists but to some among them who may deserve it What successe my poore endeavours shall finde I know not I looke for little good they shall doe amongst the Separatists who with an imperious scorn neglect to listen to or read any thing which tends to overthrow their practice and though they be so confuted as they are not able to answer a word yet they scorne to acknowledge their error and returne to the Congregations from which they have separated which to me is a clear demonstration that however these men pretend conscience yet it is no such thing for were these men lead by a pure conscience considering how they separate from holy men such also as have beene instruments of their soules good considering also how they weaken their hands grieve their spirits they would heare read pray take any course that they might be sure to be found in the truth Act. 13.36 But I leave the successe to God my desire was to serve my Generation and there I rest Separation Examined I Will not trouble my selfe to prove that there is a visible Church upon the Earth or true visible Churches in England I thinke there are none that owne the Scriptures who will deny the former though there are some who deny the latter unlesse I meane the Congregationall Churches which they will acknowledge to be Churches but none else yet many of those whom I write against doe not owne them for though they have opportunity and may joyne with such Churches yet they refuse to doe so being unwilling I perceive to come under or

let me examine what you say at present You will covenant together supposing your selves to be Saints first say you so are you Saints by calling how came you to be so what did God call you immediately No you must say many if not all of you who have any truth of grace by the preaching of the word what by those Ministers from whom you separate as no Ministers because of their Ordination hath the Lord so farre owned his despised members as to make them the instruments to bring you to be visible Saints fit to imbody or covenant c and are these now no Ministers are you the effect of their Ministeriall labours and they no Ministers Surely in this one thing you have overthrowne your selves but then you say you will ordaine him this I will consider in its owne place Then he shall baptize but since he did renounce his owne baptisme also who shall baptize him first you must have a Minister to do that to be sure he cannot doe it himselfe nor none of you for you are private persons to administer the Lords Supper before you be baptised is contrary to Scripture rules There was a report when I was in New England that a Carpenter re-baptised Mr. Williams In Iust Mar. time none received the Supper but such as were first baptised Apol. 2. Ius Divi. Apend p. 269. and then he did re-baptize the rest I do not stand to defend the thing whether it be true or no but it was like enough to be true and sutable to the other opinions and practises of that wilde generation Where are we now Fifthly that is very observable which the London Ministers have added in the defence of their Ordination That in this Church of England the corruptions which the Church of Rome would have introduced about Ordination of Ministers and other Ecclesiasticall affaires were withstood and opposed by the Kings of England Nor doe we read of any Ministers that were ordained by any Agents sent from Rome but onely some idle ceremonies of Confirmation or them that were ordained by the Pall and the Ring brought thence into England Thus far the London Ministers In the margent they have set downe the Authours that prove it Sixtly There might be another answer given by some who are good Historians which I confesse I am not wanting both time and such bookes so farre as I can goe I will That the Churches in England were at first rightly gathered and constituted it is not to be doubted Mart. 1. Vol. p. 237 last Edition the instruments of gathering being Apostles or Apostolicall men as is evident by Mr. Fox neither is it to be doubted but they did ordaine officers in the Churches for we read of Ministers and Bishops The land falling to the possession of the Saxons about the yeare 568. p. 147. the Story saith by them all the Clergy and the Christian Ministers of the Britains were then utterly driven out in so much that the Arch-bishops of London and Yorke went into Wales thus long then it seemes the Ministers of England had no ordination from Rome P. 149. this appeares also by Austine who came into England in the yeare five hundred ninety eight he about the yeare six hundred P. 153. assembled the Bishops and Doctors of Britaine so that still here were Ministers but where their abode was the story sets not downe but supposed to be towards Wales and charged them to preach the Gospel to the English-men and also that they should among themselves reform certain rites in their Church so that still here were Ministers and Churches specially for keeping of Easter-tide baptizing after the manner of Rome c. to which the Scots and Britaines would not agree this shews they did not depend upon Rome Afterward there was another Synod gathered where seven Bishops of Britaine were present and though we finde a great battell fought presently after where the Britains were overcome yet the Story doth not mention that the Ministers were all slaine there Now the thing I aime at is this that since there were so many Ministers and Bishops in England who had their ordination by succesfion from those Apostolical men and not from Rome and wee finde so many when Austine came why may we not suppose that these might againe preach the Gospel to the English-men though at first they were opposite when they had smarted for their folly and why may we not suppose they might returne into England againe especially into those parts neare Wales also those who were driven out as the Story saith they were suppose into some other parts might not they returne into England also must we take the words of the Story All the Clergy and Christian Ministers were driven out strictly so as none at all were left though latent c those who are good Historians may helpe here and it would be some answer to that objection of our ordination coming from Rome though unto me the objection is very feeble if this answer cannot be made out As for the Churches of England being rightly at first gathered Way of Ch. in N. E. Ch. 7. p. 111. as above mentioned Mr. Cotton yeelds it so as he saith That all the work now is not to make them Churches which were none before but to reduce and restore them to their primitive Institution c. To that part of the Objection They were ordained by Bishops I pray what doe you thinke of Master Bradford and the rest of those holy Ministers and Martyrs that were ordained by the Bishops in those dayes Cranmer Ridley Hooper c was he an Anti-christian Minister and all those Ministers who were then ordained though now they were scarce got out of the Popish Ceremonies c. the holy Martyrs then did never offer to separate from Mr. Bradford and the rest nor call them Antichristian Ministers I pray how many such Bradfords have you among you Not all the Separatists in England can afford such a one Christ cals him his faithfull Minister but you say Mr. Bradford is none cursed be that doctrine Now if those Ministers were true Ministers though they had an Episcopall Ordination then so are ours notwithstanding their Ordination by Bishops It is vaine to say those Bishops were godly men so were ot ours for it is a bold assertion to say that none of the Bishops since have been godly men no doubt there are divers in Heaven And besides it is absurd to thinke that the truth and efficacy of an Ordinance depends upon the truth of Grace in him who doth administer it as for Ceremonies if you search they were not cleare then no more then our Bishops were It is a silly shift to say They walked according to their light I hope there was the same rule to judge of the truth of Ministers then that is now it was not their light which made them true Ministers but the rule But the truth of their Ministry was never