God left for the ordering of his owne howse for as the Apostle saith Hebr. 3 3. he Yea and his ordinances are worthy of more honour then Moses his were And he that addeth vnto the wordes of this book that is to the true order of the church and pure worship of God conteyned therin the Lord God wil adde vnto him of the plagues that are written in this book saith the spirit of God Reuel 22 19. F. Yow allow of M. Luther I am sure what office had he P. He was first a moncke and so a member by his office of the kingdome of Antichrist euen a good while after the Lord had vsed him as a notable instrument to ouerthrow that kingdome afterward he was vtterly disgraded and depriued of al offices so that as the spirit of God saith Reu. 13. 17. he could neither buy nor sel by vertue of any libertie or freedome that he had within the kingdome of the Beast And by this meanes in the Lords great favour he caried not in this regarde any of the Beastes markes he was not of his name nor of the number of his name he denied himself to belong to that kingdome of Satan and that malignant church vtterly refused him to be any of her body and members Since his excommunication and degradation by the Romish church he nameth himself Ecclesiasten in a book of his so 〈…〉 that is a preacher of Christes blessed truth and gospel Now whither he preached by vertue of a lawful office whervnto he was called in the church of Christ or whither he taught bâ— vertue of his giftes and the opportunitie which he had to manifest the truth hauing neither time nor leisure nor yet thinking it needful it mar be to consider by what office he did it I know not of this I am assured that he was one of the famous and glorious witnesses of the Lo. Jesus raised vp to testifie on his behalfe against the abominations of the kingdome of Antichrist and I am assured that by his tongue and pen the Lo. appeared glorioussie in the power of his gospel to the consumption of that man of sin 2. Thes 2 8. Of his office I iudge the best as of a matter vnknowne vnto me that is I thinke him to haue had a pastoral office in the church of Wittemberg whither he had or not his example is no law for the church to walke by it is Chr. Jesus alone that we must heare and folow according to his wil and word must we frame our walking and if it be an Angel from heauen that wil draw vs to swarue from the same we dare not giue eare vnto him Gal. 1. 8. 9. F. And what office had yow in powr church which meet in woods and I know not where P. I haue no office in that pore congregation and as for our meetinges either in woods or any where els we haue the example of our sauiour Christ of his church and servantes in al ages for our warrant it is against our willes that we goe into woods or secret places as we are not ashamed of the gospel of Christ so our desire is to professe the same openly we are ready before men and Angels to shew and to justifie our meetings and our behauiour in them desiring earnestly that we may haue peace and queietnes to serue our God euen before al men that they may be witnesses of our vpright walking towards our God and al the world especially towards our Prince and countrie We know that meeting in woods in taues in mountaines etc. is a part of the crosse and basenes of the gospel wherat it is easy for the natural man to stumble but we are gladly partakers of this meane estate for the Lords sacred veritie and the question should not be so much where we meet as what we doe in our meetings whither our meetings and doings he warranted by the word or not and what inforced vs to meet in these places F. We wil speak of yr vnlawful assemblies afterwards but what caling haue yow to preach were yow neuer made minister according to the order of this land P. I might if I had bene willing haue bene made either Deacon or preist but I thanke the Lo. I euer disliked those popish orders and if I had taken them I would vtterly refuse them and not stand by them at any hand I haue taught publickly in the church of Scotland being thervnto desired earnestly and called by the order of that church charge I neuer had any and therfore I neuer bare office either there or in any other church F. Did not yow preach in these your secret meetings what warr it haue yow so to doe if yow haue no publick office in your church P. Whither I did or not I doe not tel yow for the present But this I say that if the same poore congregation desired to haue the vse of my smal giftes for the instructioÌ„ and consolatioÌ„ therof I would being thervnto prepared most willingly bestow my poore taleÌ„t to their mutual edification and mine F. And may yow teach in the church publickly hauing no publick office therin P. I may because I am a member therof and requested thervnto by the church and iudged to be indued in some measure with giftes meet for the handling of the Lordes sacred word The body of Christ that is euery particuler congregation of the church ought to haue the vse of al the giftes that are in any member therof and the member cannot deny vnto the body the vse of those graces wherwith it is furnished except it wil break the lawâ—â— and order of the body and become vnnatural vnto the same Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. F. Then euery one that wil may preach the word in your assemblie P. Not so for we hold it merely vnlawful yea tending to the Anabaptistical inversion of al good order in the church for any maÌ„ to intermedle with the Lords holy truth beyond the boundes of his giftes or pet for him that is indued with gifts to preach or teach in the church except he be desired and caled thervnto by the body F. But may any preach that hath not an office in the church so to doe P. Yea that he may and the word of God bindeth him to preach whosoever he be that intendeth to become a Pastor or Teacher in the church of Christ before he take his office vpon him and bindeth the church to take the trial of his giftes before they giue him his office least otherwise he should not be meet for it or at the least that handes should not be suddenly laid vpon him 1. Tim. 3 10. and 5 23. F. What office hath he al this while P. No other office then euery member of the body hath who are bound to haue their seueral operation in the body according to that measure of grace which they deriue from their head the Lo. Jesus by the power of his spirit working in them Rom.
12. 3 4. The word caleth these by the name of prophets not such as doe foretel things to come but those who are furnished with graces meet for the interpretation and applicatioÌ„ of the word vnto the edification and comfort of the church as the Apostle teacheth vs expressely 1. Corint 14. and therfore mistake not the word prophet or prophesie as though we leaned vnto any inward reuelations or motions besides the written word F. I know wel ynough what yow meane and wil not mistake your wordes for the Scripture vseth them in that sence P. Now it should be no new thing vnto yow to heare that they may preach who haue no office in the church seing this is so common a thing in the colleges and vniuersities of this land F. Yea that is in the scholes P. If that exercise wherof yow and I meane I am sure be in your confession warantable in the scholes and colleges it is much more in the church and 〈…〉 the church and assemblies of his saincts should haue the vse and excercise of his holy word and not that it should be brought to humane scholes whither it neuer came into the Lordes minde to command that euer it should enter Let the arthes tongues and other humane knowledge be taught in scholes and let the holy truth and exercises of religion be dernied from the church of Christ which the Apostle for this purpose caleth the piller and ground of truth F. Wel theÌ„ yow beare no office in this your church yow wil not tel vs whither euer yow taught amongst them or not but yow would yow say if they required yow P. True F. But how came it to passe that yow were not madâ— an officer amongst them P. Surely I was desired to take a charge and to continue with them but I would not because it hath bene my purpose alwayes to unploy my smal taleÌ„t in my poore countrie of Wales wher I know that the poore people perish for want of knowledge and this was the onely cause of my coming out of that country wher I was and might haue stayed privatly al my life euen because I saw my self bound in conscience to labour for the caling of my poore kinred and country meÌ„ vnto the knowledge of their saluation in Christ purposing in deed before I had gone thither to haue offred my self vnto her maiestie or some of their honours that it might be made knowne vnto her highnes what I hold in religion and how cleere I am of those greevous crimes of sedition and disturbing of her maiesties peaceable gouermeÌ„t wherwith I am wrongfully charged F. Why yow labour to draw her maiesties subiects from their obedieÌ„ce vnto he lawes and from this church of EnglaÌ„d to heare yow and such as yow are teaching in woods P. Nay I perswade al men vnto the obedience of my Prince and her lawes onely I disswade al the world from yeelding obedience and submission vnto the ordinaÌ„ces of the kingdome of Antichrist and would perswade them to be subiect to Christ Jesus and his blessed lawes and I know this enterprise to be so far from being repugnant vnto her maiesties lawes as I assure my self that the same is warranted therby Her maiestie hath graunted in establishing and confirming the great charter of England whervnto as I take it the kinges and queenes of this land are sworne when they come to their crowne that the church of God vnder her should haue al her rights and liberties inviolable for ever Let the benefite of this law be graunted vnto me and others of my brethren and it shalbe found that we haue done nothing but what is warrantable by her lawes F. What is it meet that subiects should charge their princes to keep covenant with them and enter to scanne what oathes they haue take for this purpose where finde yow this warranted vp scripture P. The subiects are in a most lameÌ„table case if they may not allege their princes lawes for their actiâ—â—s yea and shew what their princes haue promised vnto the Lord and to them wheÌ„ the same may be for declaration of their innocencie and it is the crowne and honour of Princes to be knowne not onely to hold but euen to be in couenant with their subiects that they wil maintaine and preserue them from violence and wrong nay heathen Princes haue thought themselues honoured when their meane subiects haue charged them very earnestly with the covenants wherby they were bound vnto their people The lawes of this land ar so ful this way as no man conversant in them can be ignoraÌ„t that our Princes haue preferred the observing of those equal couenaÌ„ts wherby they are tied vnto their people before the accomplishing of their owne priuate affections yea and commandements in some cases Hence it is that the iudges of this land are bound by law to administer iustice and equitie vnto the poore subiects notwithstaÌ„ding that the princes letters be directed to them to the contrary And as to the law of God al kinges and princes are bound ther by to be so far from thinking themselues tied by no bands vnto their subiects as they are plainly forbiddeÌ„ eueÌ„ to be lifted vp in minde aboue their brethren Deut. 1â— 20. for so the word in that place calleth their subiects and servants The kinges of Judah who had the greatest privileges and prerogatiue both ecclesiastical and ciuil ouer their people that euer any kinges or Princes can haue because they were types and figures of that great king of kings the Lo. Jesus euered into couenaÌ„t notwithstanding with their people euen particulerly besides the general former law wherby they were bound vnto them Yea the prophet Jeremie being in no lesse daunger and disgrace with al estates then I and my brethren are at this present required his soueraigne Lord and king Zedekiah to promise that he would doe him no violeÌ„ce and wrong nor yet suffer others to doe the same for telling him the truth of the word in the thinges wherin the king required to be resolued at his haÌ„des the which thing Zedekiah yeilded vnto and that by an oath and covenant of the Lord. Jer. 38. 15. 16. Wherby it appeareth that it is not without great warrant of the word that princes should enter couenant with their subiects and that subiectes should require promise and oath to be kept with them otherwise wherto serveth the covenant But alas I enter not to scanne her maiesties oath I onely tel yow what her lawes alow me and my poore brethren And I am assured if her maiestie knew the equitie and vprightnes of our cause we should not receiue this hard measure which we now susteine We and our cause are neuer brought before her but in the odious weeds of Sedition rebellion â—chisme her sie etc. and therfore it is no mervaile too see the edge of her sword turned against vs. F. Hath not her maiestie by her lawes established these offices and this order that now is
The Examinations of Henry Barrowe John Grenewood and John Penrie before the high commissioners and Lordes of the Counsel Penned by the prisoners themselues before their deathes Ther is nothing couered that shal not be reuiled neither hid that shal not be knowen Luke 12. 2. ffor euery worke God himself wil bring Vnto iudgement with euery secret thing whither good or euil Eccles 2. 14. THe testimonie and sufferings of the prisoners whose examinations here ensue cannot easilie gentle reader be forgottâ—Ì„ of and whose harte is touched with care of religion and zeale of the truth How weightie the. causes were for which they suffered may appeare parâ—â—ie by that which foloweth but Here hast thow the maner of the Prelates proceding against them and how they were convicted of theyr Brownisme â—onatisme â—naâ—â—ptisâ—â—ie Sâ—hisme Heresie etc. wherwith they were charged and for which they were so 〈…〉 yeeres kept in miserable close prisons and at last bereaued of their liues Sure whosoeuer had bene the persons and whatsoeuer the erâ—ours it would wel â—aue become the Lord Arch â— of the church of England to haue better instructed and informed them by the â—â—â—rd of truth and wâ—â—lâ—oâ—e doctrine before they had bene adiudged to prison and death â— Tim. 2 24 25. and 4 2. â—it 2 1. Or if Pauls counsel could not take effect yet Pilates example might haue stayed such courses who examined our Lord Christes accusers and found them false and neuer sent him to close prison for refusing to sweare to accuse him self Mat. 27. Luk. 23. Joh. 18. Neither yet did the late prelates in Q. Maries dayes vse â—ltogither such severitie for Bonnet him self with the other tyrants of that 〈…〉 e â—ad often conference and disputation with the Maâ—â—yrs and sought by scriptures to haue ouerthrowen them if they could Euil therfore haue our 〈◊〉 provided for their cause and credit so slightly to deale in matters of such moment and to proceed to such sâ—â—ere to râ—ures before more open and orderly conviction of the faultes and ercours Loe now al posterities shal see their practises and though they haue spilt the blood of those men which vered them so fore yet can they not bereaue the world of their testiâ—â—â—ie which â—y word and writing they haue left behinde them The lord giue these men if they belong vnto hâ—â— to adâ—â—â—t and see their dealinges and to remember the account which they ere long shalbe called vnto before him who is ready to iudge quick and dead The publishing of these thinges can not iustly be offensiue to any seyng 1. nothing 〈◊〉 is here set downe but that which was then demaunded and answered as neere as the prisoners could remember 2. And they which haue themselues set forth the examinations of 〈…〉 heretofore may not be greened now when theyr owne turne is come and their proceedings made knowne likewise they which doe wel need not shunne the light How ever it be the church of God I doubt not shal reap some profit hereby for which how 〈…〉 so euer it be let hâ—â— haue the praise Amen Abrief of the examination of me Henry Barrowe the 19. of Nouember 1586. Before the Arch B. Arch D. and Dr. Cussins as neere as my memorie could cary being at Lambeth THis 19. being the Lords day betwene 9. and 10. oft the clock in the fore noone Mâ—â—ul and I went vnto the Clinke to visit Mâ— Grenewood and the other brethren there emprisoned where we had not bene the space of one quarter of an howre but Mr. Shepheâ—d the keeper of the prison came vp rebuked Mr. Grenewood and stayed me saying he had commandement from his Lords grace so to doe I demanded a sight of his warrant he answered that he would doe it and I might afterward if I were wronged bring mine action So he locked me vp in prison and forthwith went to his Lords grace to Lambeth About one of the clock he returned and brought with him 2. pursuvantes I was forthwith put into a boat and caried to Lambeth By the way one of the pursuvants called Watson drew out of his bosoâ—â— a letter from the court of Lambeth vnto me saying how he had a long time sought me I told him his paynes deserved thanks neither at Gods handes nor mine I refused his letter and said that I obeyed neither it nor him neither would I read it shewing how I was vnder the arrest of the keeper of the Clinke who sate by me Wel we arrived at Lambeth wher after I had perused the B. his state I was brought into his presence chamber yet not vntil this Watson had prevented me and shewed his maister what had passed in the boat Arch B. Barrowe is your name Barrowe B. Yea. A. It is told me that yow refuse to receiue or obey our letter know yow what yow doe it is from the high commissioners and this man a pursuvant B. I refused to receive or obey that letter at that time A. Why so B. Because I was vnder arrest and imprisoned without warrant and against law and therfore now it was too late to bring the letter A. Why may not a Counsellor commit to prison by his bare commandement alledging how the Aldermen of London doe daily B. That is not the question what a counsellor may doe but whither this man may doe it without warrant by the law of the land pointing to the keeper of the Clinke A. Know yow the law of the land B. Very litle yet was I of Grayes Inne some yeares Then his two Doctours and he decided mine vnskilfulnes Let this passe I look for litle help by law against yow I pray yow why haue yow imprisoned me and after this manner sent for me A. That yow shal know vpon yowr oath wil now sweare B. I hold it lawful to sweare so it be done with due order and circumstances A. Reach a book hold it him B. What shal we doe with this A. Lay your hand vpon it man B. To what purpose A. To sweare B. I Vse to sweare by no bookes A. Yow shal not sweare by the book but by God oncly B. So I purpose when I sweare Cus Did yow neuer take an oath at an Assise before the Judges there B. No. Cus But would yow refuse there to lay yowr hand on a book and sweare B. Yea. C. Then would your testimonie not be taken A. Why man the book is no part of the oath it is but a cerimonie B. A needlesse and wicked ceremonie A. Why know yow what yow say know yow what book it is it is the Bible B. I wil sweare by no Bible C. Scismaticks are clamorous alwayes it is a perpetual note to know them by A. M r. D r. Cussins saith true such were the Donatistes alwayes in the counsels and such art thow and al other scismatiks such as thow art B. Say yowr pleasure God forgiue yow I am neither scismatike nor clamourous I answer but yowr demandes if yow wil I wil be
not an oath ther must great regard and reuerence be vsed in an oath and an oath for confirmation ought to be the ende of al strife My Lo. if I should erre and deliuer it vpon mine oath for truth it were a double sinne likewise if I should eyther not know not remember or not vtter the whole truth I were by such a rash oath forsworne But by Gods grace I wil answer nothing but the truth Cant. A Christian mans word ought to be as true as his oath we wil proceed with yow without your oath and taking a paper of Interr in his hand said what say yow to this Is it lawful to say the Pater noster publickly in the church or priuatly as a prayer or no B. I know not what yow meane by your Pater noster vnlesse peradventure that forme for prayer which our sauiour Christ taught his disciples commonly called the Lordes prayer Cant. I so meane Then commanded he the first question to be thus written Quest 1. Whither he thinketh the Lordes prayer may publickly in the Church or privatly be vsed as a prayer or no When I had expressed my minde the Arch B. commaunded it should be recorded but I desired the judges that I might with my owne hande write my owne answers which was graunted me My answer then to the first question was Ans It is to be vsed to that ende for which it was giuen by our sauiour Christ to his disciples as a sununarie ground-worke or foundation of al faithful prayers wherby to instruct and assure their conscieÌ„ces that their petitions are according to the wil and glory of God But that these prescript wordes are iâ—ioâ—ned or that Christ 〈…〉 in the scripture Moreouer I see not how it can be vsed as a prayer seing that our particuler wantes and present occasions and necessitieâ— are not therin expressed And therfore I thinke it not to be vsed as a prayer Heere the Arch B. cried out for breuitie and would not suffer me to answer any more questions at large Quest 2. Wither he thinketh that any Leitourgies or prescript formes of prayer may be imposed vpon the church and whither al read and stinted prayers be mere babling in Gods sight Ans I finde in the worde of God 〈◊〉 such authoritie giuen to any man neither such stinted leitourgies prescribed or vsed in the primitiue churches and therfore hold it high presumtion to impose any one deuised Apocrypha praier vpon the church Q. 3. Whither he thinketh that the common praiers commaunded by the publick authoritie of this land be idolatrous superstitious and popish A. I thinke that this book of common prayer publickly inioyned and receiued in the assemblies of this lande is wel nigh altogither idolatrous superstitious and popish Q. 4. Whither he thinketh that the Sacraments which are publikly administred in the church of England be true Sacramentes or no A. I thinke that the SacrameÌ„tes as they are ministred in these publike assemblies are not true Sacramentes and seale not the fauour and blessing of God vnto them Q. 5. Whither he thinketh that the lawes and gouerment of the church of England now by authoritie established be vnlawful and Antichristian or no A. Because the lawes decrees and canons of your church are so many and infinite I can not iudge of them al because I know not al but this I say that many of them as also your Ecclesiastical courtes and gouernours are vnlawful and Antichristian Q. 6. Whither he thinketh that such as haue bene baptised in the church of England since Queene Elisabethes reigne haue bene rightly baptised or ought to be baptised againe A. I thinke as before of yowr Sacramentes that they haue not bene rightly baptised according to the institution of Christ Yet that they need not neither ought to be baptised againe I doubt least the Arch B. hearing my answer of rebaptising caused it to be left out of the question and my answer taking that which might best serue their owne turne to bring vs into suspicion of error and hatred Herevnto many speeches arising of the true and false Sacramentes ministerie gouerment as also of the true and false church I shewed that the false church had also her Sacramentes ministery gouerment though not aright Then Judge Anderson caused this question to be moued to me Q 7. Whither the church of England as it standeth now established be the true established church of Christ and whither the people therin be the true and faithful people of God or no. A. I thinke that these parish assemblies as they stand generally in England are not the true established churches of Christ and that the people as they now stand in this disorder and confusion in them are not to be held the true and faithful people of Christ Here the Judge Anderson took exception as the B. of Lond. also at these wordes parish assemblies I answered the Judge that I could not for some weightie respectes spare him that word for I doubted not but that the Lord had many pretious and elect vessels among them whom he wil in his good time cal forth whom it became not me absolutely to iudge least I should enter into Gods seat Yet I could not in the meane time whiles they stand members of these assemblies count them faithful To the B. I said that when they should better consider of mine answer they should haue lesse cause to finde fault Much trouble we had before we could agree of the state and wordes of their questions with putting out and changing which discourses it is not my purpose here to set downe so much as the questions and answers agreed vpon and recorded although 〈◊〉 some causes knowne to my selfe and to some of their consciences which may hereafter be knowne to al the world I thought it not imperâ—â—nent to insert this Q 8. Whither he thinketh the Queenes maiestie be supreme gouernour of the church and whither she may maâ—e lawes for the church which are not contrary to the word of God or no A. I thinke the Queenes maiestie svpreme gouernour of the whole land and ouer the church also bodies and goods but I thinke that no Prince neither the whole world neither the chvrch it self may make any lawes for the church other then Christ hath already left in his worde Yet I thinke it the dutie of euery Christian and principally of the Prince to enquire out and reâ—â—e the lawes of God and stir vp al their subiectes to more diligent and careful keeping of the same Aâ— we had much a doe to come to the state of this question so the 〈◊〉 shewed themselues euil satisfied with my answer and said that the Papistes dealt more simply then I did and surely they very greevouslie interrupted me with slanders euil speeches and blasphemes during the time of my writing these answers especially the B of Lond. so that I was euen inforced sometime to turne vnto him and shew him of his shamelesse vntruthes and
sinne Q. Whither may the Prince make lawes in the gouerment of the church or no A. The Scripture hath set downe sufficient lawes for the worship of God and gouerment of the church to which no man may adde or diminish Q. What say yow to the Princes supremacie is her maiestie supreme head of the church ouer al causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal A. A supreme magistrâ—â—â— ouer al persons to punish the euil and defend the good Q. Euer al causes etc. A. No Christ is onely head of his church and his lawes may no man alter Q. The pope giueth thâ—â— much to the Prince A. No that he doth not he setteth himself aboue Princes â—nd exempteth his preisthod from the magestrates sword Q. What say yow to the oath of the Queenes supremacie wil yow answer to it If these ecclesiastical orders be meant such as be agreeable vnto the scriptures I wil for I deny al forreigne power Q. It is meant the order and government with al the lawes in the church as it is now established A Then I wil not answer to approue thereof A breif summe of the examination of John Penrie by the right worshipful Mr. Fanshaw and Mr. Justice Young the 10. of the fourth moueth April 1593. Fansh IT is strange vnto me that yow hold such opinions Penry as none of the learned of this age or any of the martyrs of former times mainterned Can yow shew any writers either old or new that haue bene of your iudgement Penr I hold nothing but what I wilbe bound to proue out of the written word of God and wil shew in regard of the special pointes controverted to haue bene mainteyned by the holy martyrs of this land who first assailed the Babylonisâ— Romane kingdome as namely by Mr. Wicliffe Mr. Brute Mr. Purvey Mr. White etc. with many other the famous witnesses and martyrs of Christ in former times and by Mr. Tindal Mr. Lambert Mr. Barnes Mr. Latâ—â—er etc. the lordes most blessed witnesses of this latter age I speaâ— nothing here of the doctrine and practise of the reformed churches mother countries whom I haue wholly of my side in the controversies of greatest moment F. But doe the martyrs teach yow that ther is no church of Christ in England P. If yow meane by a church as the most doe that publick profession wherby men doe professe saluation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Jesus Christ I am free from denping any church of Christ to be in this land for I know the doctrine touching the holy trinitie the natures and offices of the Lord Jesus free iustification by him both the Sacramentes etc. published by her maiesties authoritie and commaunded by her lawes to be the Lordes blessed and vndoubted truthes without the knowledge and profession wherof no saluation is to be had F. Seing yow acknowledge that her maiestie hath established the truth in so many weightie pomtes seing she hath commaunded the true Sacramentes to be administred what mislike yow in our church and why wil yow not be partaker of these truthes and Sacramentes with vs. P. I mislike 1. the false eccâ—estastical offices 2. the manner of caling vnto the offices 3. a great parte of the workes wherin these false officers are imployed 4. the maintenance or livinges wherby they are mainteyned in their offices al which I wilbe bound to proue by the Lords helpe to be deriued not from Jesus Christ but from the kingdome of Antichrist his great enemie And therfore for as much as I cannot be partaker of the former holy thinges of God but I must be subiect vnto the power of Antichrist in these officers and knowen by those markes wherby his subiectes are noted therfore I am enforced and bound to seek the comfort of the word and Sacramentes wher I may haue them without the submitting of my self vnto any ecclesiastical power in religion saue onely vnto that which is deriued from Christ Jesus the Lord in whom al fulnes of power dwelleth Col. 1. 19. and from whom al those must deriue their power and office vnto whom the saintes of God are to submitte their consciences to be wrought vpon in religion Againe seing the forenamed 4. enormities of this church are markes which properly belong vnto the kingdome of the Beast viz. of the Romane Antichrist we dare not haue any communion and fellowship with them nor be knowen by them least we should be partakers of those most fearful and most dreadful iudgementes which are denounced by the spirit of God against al those that haue communion with any of the irreligious inventions of that Beast Reuel 14 9. 10. These are the thinges togither with the want of Christes true order which I especially mislike and the special causes why I dare not ioyne with the assemblies of this Land 1. the false offices wherby these assemblies are guided and by whom the whole worship is performed in them 2. their manner of caling 3. a great part of the devised workes wherin these officers are conversant 4. the livinges consecrated sometimes vnto Idols for the most part wherby they are susteyned in their offices F. What offices meane yow P. I meane the offices of Lord Arch Bbs. and Bbs. Archdeatons Commissaries Chancellors Oeanes Canons Prebendaries Preistes Deacons etc. Al which properly belong to no other bodie either 〈…〉 or 〈…〉 but onely vnto the Romish Church whâ—â—â— they were first invented where they now are and by whom they were left in this lande when the head of that body the Pope and some other of his members were cast out by her maiestie and our soueraigne Lord her noble father The church of Christ is perfect without them in al her offices the ciuil state is absolute without them for they are ecclesiastical Heathen idolatrie hath them not and requireth them not onely the kingdome of Antichrist can in no wise be whole and entire without them wherof as I say they are visible and knowne members Now if it be not lawful for me or any other member of Christ to be subiect vnto the orders and cerimonies of the old law as circumcision etc. Which sometimes were the Lordes owne blessed ordinances how can it be but sin vnto vs to be subiect to the constitutions of Antichrist the maine adversarie of the Lo. Jesus The Lord hath not deliuered vs from the Yoke of his owne law that we should be in bondage vnto the inventions and order of Antichristes kingdome and offices F. Belike yow would haue no other offices in the church now in the time of peace and prosperitie then were in the Apostles dayes vnder persecution P. Ther is great reason we should not for if the order left by Moses in the church was not to be altered to be diminished or added vnto except it were by special commaundement from the Lord 1. Chron. 28 19. then may not any man or Angel but upon the same warrant adde any thing vnto that holy forme which the sonne of
in the church of EnglaÌ„d P. Her lawes haue I graunt of ouersight as taking them for the right offices and order which appertaine vnto the church of Christ the which because we euidently see that they are not therfore flie we vnto her former promise and act wherby she graunteth vs the inioping of al the privileges of the church of Christ F. Why then goe ye about to pul downe Bps P. Alas far be it from vs that euer we should entend any such actions we onely put her maiestie and the state in mind of the wrath of God that is likely to come vpon this land for the vpholding of many Romish inveÌ„tions We labor to saue our owne sowles and al those that wil be warned by vs in avoiding al corruptions in religion and practising the whole wil of our God as neere as we can Further then this we haue no caling to goe and therfore dare not so much as once in thought conceiue of any thing that we should doe in the altering or pulling downe of any thing established by her lawes F. Why then meet yow in woods and such suspicious and secret places if yow purpose no insurrection for the pulling downe of Bps P. I haue told yow the reason before our meetings are for the pure and true worship of God and ther is not so much as a word or thought of Bps. in our assemblies except it be in praying for them that the Lord would shew mercy and favour vnto them which we wish as to our owne sowles Our meetings are secret as I told yow because we cannot without disturbance haue them more open Our earnest desire and prayer vnto our God and our gouernours is that we might haue them open and not be inforced to withdraw our selues from the sight of any creature Of the Lordes pure worship in the congregation of his people are we bound to be partakers and that in woods in mountaines in caues etc. as I told yow rather then not at al. F. Then yow are privy vnto no practise or intent of any sedition or commotion against her maiestie and the state for the pulling downe of Bps P. No I thanke God nor euer was and I protest before heauen and earth that if I were I would disclose and withstand the same to the vttermost of mineabilitie in al persons of what religion soeuer they were Young But what meant yow Penry when yow told me at my howse that I should liue to see theday wherin ther should not be a Lo. Bp. left in England P. Yow doe me great iniury Sr. but I am content to beare it This was it that I said vnto yow namely that I gainsaid nothing in this whole cause but what I could proue out of the word of God to be the remnants of the popish Antichristian kingdome which religion I said the Lord hath promised vtterly to ouerthrow and consume in so much as yow said I may liue though yow be already of great yeares for my self I may be cut of by vntimely death to see al the offices calings works and livings deriued from or belonging at any time vnto the kingdome of Antichrist vtterly ouerthroweÌ„ in this land for the Lo. hath promised that that man of sin that body of the AntichristiaÌ„ religion shalbe so consumed by the breath of his mouth and the brightnes of his appearing in the power of his gospel before his second coming 2. Thes 2. as that false synagogue shal haue no power in any of her officers or partes either to be lifted vp ouer the 〈…〉 of God viz ouer any thing that is caled holy or yet to oppose her self as a bloody adversarie vnto those truthes and servants of Christ who refuse to be in spiritual boÌ„dage and slauery to her This I shewed yow to be verified in the type Babylon of the Chaldeans according to the word of the Lo. spoken by Isaiah and Jeremiah and the casting of the stone into Euphrates by Sheraiah at Jeremies commandement Isa 13. 19. 20. Jer. 50. 40. and 51. 61. 64. and this I shewed to be decreed by the Lo. of hostes against the true body the Antichristian Babel vnder the new testament for so we are taught by the spirit of God that she shalbe consumed and be no more that her chapmen shal in this life bewaile and the saincts of God reioyce at her vtter ouer throw and at the spoile and decay of her merchandise Reuelat. 18. The comparing of the act done by Sheraiah against the type and what followed thervpon with that of the Angel against the true Babylon I declared most fully to confirme my speech for Sheraiah throwing the stone into Euphrates said thus shal Babel be drowned and rise no more and so it came to passe the Angel in the Reuel casting the great stone into the sea saith with such violeÌ„ce shal the great city BabyloÌ„ be cast and shalbe found no more and so it wilbe accomplished I am sure This was my speech vnto yow Mr. Young and I beseech yow yea and charge yow as yow shal answer in that great day not to misreport my speeches but to relate them as they are vttered by me Y. I conceiued some great matter of your speech I tel yow P. Yow did me the greater wrong therin I pray yow hereafter to conceiue of my wordes according to my meaning and their natural signification F. Yow say that these offices and livings derived in your conceit from the body of Antichrist shalbe ouerthroweÌ„ by the Lord we would know how yow meane that this wilbe accomplished P. I haue already shewed yow that this worke shalbe done by the appearing of Jesus Chr. in the shining brightnes of his gospel through the efficacie wherof the Lord shal so lay theÌ„ open as he wil put into the hartes of Princes and states wher in they are now mainteined to abolish their offices calings and works vtterly from among men and to imploy their livings vnto the holy civil vses of the Princes and states wherin they are After this sort did the Lord consume the Popes primacie office and maintenance which he had in this land and after this maner did he consume by his gospel the Cardinals Priors Abbots Moncks Friers and Nunnes out of this laÌ„d and after this or some other way seeming best to his wisedome shal he I doubt not â—oÌ„sume the rest of that body of miquitie now remayning where soeuer The worke I am assured shalbe accomplished because the Lo. hath said it in his written word the maner how or the time when it shalbe performed I leaue to him who ruleth al thinges according to the counsel of his owne wil and whose wayes and iudgements are past finding out F. and Y. What yow doe or purpose to doe in these your assemblies we cannot tel but this is sure that the Papists seeme to be so incouraged by tijis dealing of yours that ther were neuer so many of them in this land since her maiesties reigne as are at
this present and they themselues say that your separating from vs a great stombling block vnto them wherby also they take occasion to doe the like P. What we doe in our meetings and what our purposes are I haue told yow simply as in the presence of the Lord and weare ready by the grace of God to approue our actions and purposes to be in al good conscience both towards the Lord and our Prince and toward al men if the number of the idolatrous ignorant Papists be increased it is no wonderful case by reason of the smal teaching that the poore people of the land haue and their increase is in the iust iudgement of God in that so many remnants of popery are left vnbanished in the land but specialy because these baits are reteined here wherby the Pope is continualy drawen to send ouer his Jesuits and Seminaries wherby also they are most easily and willingly induced to come and pervert her maiesties subiects from their obedience vnto the Lord and his leivetenant and to betray their natiue prince and countrie into the hands of aliants and strangers F What are those baits that yow meane P I meane the former popish offices and their livings wherof I spake as the offices and livings of Archbâ—s Lo. Bps. Deanes Archdeacons Cannons Preists etc. the continuance wherof and of the popish corruptions belonging to them keepeth the Pope and his sworne subiects in daily hope of replanting the throne of iniquitie againe in this land wherof I trust in the Lo. that they shalbe vtterly disappointed The traiterous Jesuits and seminary preists hoping to possesse these execrable livings and offices againe are also therby allured readily to become most vnnatural traitors against their natural Prince and countrie and the Papists at home are by this meanes kept stil in remembraÌ„ce of that Romish Egipt and in continual expectation of their long desired day wheras if these offices and livings were once removed the devised works and calings would fal with them the Pope and his trafiquers would be vtterly void of al hope to set vp the standerd of the man of sin againe in this noble kingdome here being not so much as an office or one peÌ„ny of maintenance left for any of his members the Jesuits and preists would haue no allurements to make them rebelles against their Prince and the other seduced Papists at home would easily forget their idolatrie ther being here neither office nor any other monument of that antichristian religion left to put them in mind of that Babel and so the Lord would accomplish that which thapostle saith shalbe fulfilled euen the vtter consuming of the man of sin in this land 2. Thes 2. And therfore the reteining of these offices and livings are not onely ioyned with the great dishonour of God and the offence of his saincts 〈…〉 my 〈…〉 of 〈…〉 of this noble kingdome yea and of y e prosperitie and welfare of her maiesties most royal person whom the Lo. blesse body and sowle from al dangers both at home and abroad as it is wel knowne by ouer many popish trecheries intended against her I marvaile not that the papists dislike our separation and yow may be assured that if they knew what may bring vs into daÌ„ger or discredit vs with her Ma tie with any of our superiors the honorable and worshipful magistrats vnder her highnes or any els of our countrymeÌ„ they wilbe sure to vtter the same though it were in their owne consciences neuer so vntrue For they know that of al the men vnder heaueÌ„ we are the greatest enemies vnto their religion we leaue the same neither branch nor root but would haue al the world to be as clere of that spiritual cotagion as it was the same day wherin the Lo. Jesus went vp on high and led captiuitie captiue Their reason of their separation drawen from our example is like their religion We dare not ioyne with thassemblies of the land notwithstanding that we know many of the truthes of Jes Christ to be professed therin because in the offices and many of the workes remayning in them we should haue communion with the religion of the Romane Antichrist in many of the workes and inventions therof they on the other side wil not ioyne with the publick worship of the Land because therby they should haue ouermuch communion with the doctrine of Christ and ouer litle with the poisoned inventions ordeined by Satan in the Romish Synagogue and who moved them to their treason and disobedience before we took this course Is theyr reason any thing tolerable that because we indevour to worship the Lord purely they should take example therby to giue themselues wholy to the worship of Satan F. But why refuse yow conference that yow may be reformed in those things wherin yow erre P. I refuse none I am most willing readily to yeeld vnto any as Mr. Young hath it to testify vnder my hand onely my desire and request is that I may haue some equal conditions graunted vnto me and my poore brethren in it the which yet if I can not obteine I am ready to yeeld vnto any conference though never so vnequal yea I am desirous of any conference that her maiesty and their honours may be truly informed of that which I and my brethren doe hold and of the warrant that we haue therof from the word of the Lord. Onely I craue that my iudgement my reasons my answers may be reported in my owne words and herof I beseech your worships to beare witnes withme Lastly I beseech yow to consider that it is to no purpose that her Maiesties subiectes should bestowe their time in learning in the study and meditation of the word of God in the reading of the writings and doinges of the learned men and holy martyrs that haue bene in former age 〈…〉 the writings published by her maiesties authoritie if they may not without daÌ„ger professe and hold those truthes which they learne out of them and that in such sort as they are able to convince al the world that wil stand against them by no other weapons then by the word of God Consider also I pray yow what a lamentable case it is that we may ioyne with the Romish church in the inventions therof without al danger and cannot but with extreme peril be permitted in iudgement and practise to dissent from the same wher it swarveth from the true way And as yow finde these considerations to cary some weight with them so I beseech yow be a meanes vnto her maiestie and their honors that my case may be weighed in euen ballance Imprisonments inditements yea death it self are no meet weapons to convince mens consciences Ë™ Faultes escaped Page 2. in the Preface lin 4. after but read cheefly by other writinges and bookes by themselues set out heretofore Here etc. Pag. 6. lin 33. after such bande read A. Wil yow enter band to appeare on tuesdey next at our court and so on thursday if yow be not called and be bound not to depart vntil yow be dismissed by order of our courtâ— B. No. A. Then etc.