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A53346 Amsterdam: toleration, or no toleration in a discourse between conformists, non-conformists, papists, Anabaptists, Quakers, &c. In their own words, before a gracious king, about the extent of a Christian indulgence to all dissenters. By J.V.C.O. A friend to men of all religions. J. V. C. O. 1663 (1663) Wing O2A; ESTC R207624 19,722 59

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and dispenseth as himself pleaseth and my errour is my misery and not my fault L.O.J. p. 16. The Church doth not punish you for being in the wrong which you cannot it may be help although I could wish you would heartily endeavour all the means to come to the right but for doing what is contrary to that which is established as right which you may help You may chuse whether you think as we think and you may chuse whether you should do or teach as you do what is so scandalous to the Church and so repugnant to publick Authority Anabaptist For you to suppress whatever is done or taught against the received Way is to hold the truth in unrighteousness B. Gauden Because it is possible that some truths of Religion may be unseen and so omitted by the most publick Diligence and some may afterwards be discovered by private industry and devotion which ought not to be smothered or concealed if they have the Character of Gods Will revealed in his written Word whose true meaning is the fixed measure and unalterable Rule of all true Religion to prevent the suppressing or detaining any Truth which may be really offered unto any Church or Christians beyond what is publickly owned and established also to avoid the foolish obtruding whatever Novelty any mans fancie listeth to set up upon his own private account contrary to the publick establishment nothing were more necessary and happy then to have in every National Church which hath agreed with one heart one minde one spirit and one mouth to serve the Lord Jesus according to the pattern of primitive Piety and Wisdome persons of eminent Learning Wisdome and Integrity publickly chosen and appointed to try and examine all new Opinions publickly propounded no man being to print or publish any thing different from the publick establishment of Religion until he hath first humbly propounded to the Church or to reverend men appointed by the Church his Opinion in writing together with his Reasons why he adds or differs from the publick profession Let the prophets prophesie one by one and let the others judge If the Church allows his Opinion and Reasons propounded he may then publish his judgement by preaching disputing writing or printing if it doth not he shall then keep his Opinion to himself in the bounds of private conference onely for his own satisfaction but in no way to publicate it to the scandal or perturbation of what is setled in Religion Here every man may enjoy his ingenuous liberty as to private dissenting without any blame or penalty which he shall incur or undergo in case he doth so broach any thing without leave as a rude Innovator and proud Disturber B. Usher p. 118. Private and modest dissentings among brethren safely may and charitably ought to be born with all Christian meekness and wisdome no private Christian being forced to any explicite Conformity or Subscription under penalty of any mulct or prison much less with the terrour of fire and faggot which was the violence of Papal Tyranny onely they should take care that people be duly taught that Religion which is setled that none be a publick Preacher that is a declared Dissenter or Upholder of it that no man doth broach any Novelty without their approbation that no man oppose scorn or perturb that constitution of Religion which is publickly setled as supposed to be the best that no man abuse the name of Christian liberty to the Publicks injury making it a cloak of maliciousness and that we be not ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of saving and necessary truth that we be not still tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine and never cast anchor upon the sure and safe grounds of an wholesome form of sound words Poor souls are undone and perish for ever if they be betrayed to themselves if God and good men be not better to them then they desire or designe to themselves either in things sacred or civil if there be not in just and honest ways such holy restraints and wholesome severities laid upon them as may keep them within the bounds of sobriety and piety The Lord may dispense the beams of his Spirit in the light of truth as well as in the heat of love how where and when he will yea and oft doth reveal his secret and hidden things not to the wise and learned but to the babes and foolish therefore a publick liberty at least and a fair toleration ought to be granted to any men to opine to teach and accordingly to act as they are inwardly perswaded or moved without any restraint upon their spirits or quenching of the Spirit of God B. Gauden We desire not to quench the work of Gods Spirit in any man but to restrain the workings of a mans own errours according to the will of God to which to subject our selves is our most perfect freedom Perfect freedom is to be able without sinful impediments to understand to speak and to do such things as we ought to God or man in such a way as charity sobriety order and gravity allow Papists We hope your Majesty out of the sense of our Loyalty in these disturbed times will be pleased to allow us such indulgence as they may deserve who dissent from the publick Way peaceably and soberly King What you have done was but your duty for your Loyalty to me in civil things you shall have protection from me in those things too for an indulgence to your Religion I must consult my Divines What say you my Lord of Canterbury Archb. Abbot I fear I have offended by my too long silence I must needs say that your Majesty is undone if you tolerate a Religion so displeasing to God so dangerous to all humane states and societies Now I have delivered mine own soul you may do with me what you please Papists Why is it that we are so severely censured B. Usher p. 67. Because your Religion is idolatrous your Doctrine heretical and your Church in respect of both Apostatical To give you therefore a toleration or to consent that you may freely exercise your Religion and profess your Faith and Doctrine is a grievous sin whereby we are Accessories to your Delusions and like to be partakers of your plagues and therefore we beseech the zealous God of truth to make you who are in Authority zealous of Gods glory and of the advancement of true Religion zealous resolute and couragious against all Popery Superstition and Idolatry Papists We hope you will deal as favourably with us as you would be dealt withal in those Countries where our Religion prevails Protestants Our greatest rigours reach not your persecutions in forreign parts we would yet be merciful unto you if we could without being cruel to our own souls Papists Your favour here to us may oblige other Princes to oblige your friends abroad Protestants We must not do evil that good may come therefore we must discountenance your
arise from inordinate liberty and immodest freedom which of later years all sorts of people have challenged to themselves in matter of Religion presuming on such a toleration and indulgence as encourageth them to chuse and adhere to what Doctrine Opinion Party Perswasion Fancy or Faction they list Are not the errours which are rife amongst us either by infecting persons of quality grown to that boldness or by carrying away Barnabas also grown into that credit or by spreading far and wide grown to that strength that they seem to endanger our common Faith our publick Worship and authorized Ministry our much expected and long promised Reformation Assembly-Divines There is no State in Christendome where there is one onely Religion established that will admit the publick exercise of any other in a way of separation from it And the Church of God before Christ granted no toleration of divers Religions or Disciplines and of several Parties so contrary to the Communion of Saints We believe and profess one God one Christ one Lord one Spirit one Faith one Baptism and one Body Mr. Burroughs p. 62. If every man shall not walk according to his own light according to what light shall he walk B. Gauden p. 139. According to the Scripture-light that hath beamed out upon all Believers in all Ages of the Church He may indeed do what he will but they that have power over him must allow him to do nothing against the truth but for the truth Mr. Caryl p. 36. It were a mercy if it were possible tender Consciences were allowed to stand fast in that liberty wherein Christ hath made them free B. Gauden p. 142. I do not doubt but the greatest Patrons for the peoples liberty in matters of Religion will in time if they do not already see how great a charity it is to put merciful restraints of religious Order and Government upon them which are no less necessary then those sharper curbs and yokes of civil Coercion No wise States-man will think it fit in honesty or safety to permit the common people to do what is good in their own eyes as if there were no King or supreme Magistrate in Israel nor can any good Christian think it fit that in Religion every man should be left to profess what he listeth as if there were no Christ as King and chief Bishop of our souls as if he had not left us clear and setled foundations of Faith Worship Order and Discipline and whatsoever is necessary to make us wise unto salvation perfect unto every good work in wholesome forms of found words B. Hall p. 28. O do not deceive your selves the liberty wherein Christ hath made you free is from sin that beguiled you from fear that troubled you from an evil Conscience that disturbed you from the wrath of God that was bent against you from the rigour of the Moral Law that oppressed you from Satan that had dominion over you from the Ceremonial Law that enthralled you and not from subjection to the wholesome Injunctions of lawful Authority your obedience to whom is perfect liberty Mr. Manton p. 137. Vain man would be free and yokeless neither would he have his heart subject to God nor his actions to mans censure Some men will not have their consciences stand in the way of their lust nor the Magistrate in the way of their sin but every Christian desires to live under the Magistrate peaceable and quiet lives in all godliness and honesty King Indeed Mr. Caryl if the divinest liberty be to will what men should and to do what they so will according to Reason Law and Religion I envy not my Subjects that liberty which is all I desire my self so far am I from all desire of oppressing theirs In point of true conscientious tenderness challenged with humility and meekness not with proud and arrogant activity which seeks to hatch every egge of opinion to a faction or schism I have often declared how little I desire my Laws should entrench on Gods Soveraignty who is the onely King of all mens consciences and yet he hath laid such restraints upon men as commands them to be subject for conscience sake giving no man liberty to break the Law established further then with meekness and patience they are content to suffer the penalty annexed rather then perturb the publick peace Have I any power or have I not to take care of matters of Religion so that none may presume under my Government to own any Way different from what I conceive the ancient Catholick and Apostolick Way I pray satisfie me in that B. Reynolds p. 18 16. Not to engage in any controversie onely thus much The good Kings of Israel and Judah before Christ were commanded of God and were ready of themselves to lay out their interest for the establishment of the Way of God and the abolition of all other Ways The Prophets prophesied That good Kings after Christs coming should be Nursing Fathers and Nursing Mothers to the Church every soul is subject to them as who are over us for good Spiritual and Temporal and we are to pray for them that we may live under them peaceable and quiet lives in all godliness and honesty God hath given your Majesty power God hath given your Majesty care a power over his people a care of his glory you must not bear the sword in vain If you must punish offences against men you must much more punish offences against God if you must take care that your Subjects live well you must take care that they be well principled you must take care that your people be so subject to you as you and your people may be subject to God The King saith St. Augustine serveth God as a man and as a King as a man by godly life as a King by godly Laws as Ezekias by destroying the Groves and Temples of the Idols and as Josias by compelling the people to serve the Lord their God and doing other things for the honour of God which onely Kings can do And we may observe in the Laws and Histories of the Primitive times what Socrates said That ever since the Emperour turned Christian the Affairs of the Church depended upon him for the Church as Optatus saith is in the Commonwealth not the Commonwealth in the Church Besides the Primitive Church the Reformed Church of Belgia holds p. 18. That the Magistrate should hold fast the Word of God and see that nothing be taught contrary to it The Helvetian saith this Office was enjoyned the Heathen Magistrate to take care that the Name of God be duly honoured how much more doth it belong to the Christian Magistrate as the true Deputy of God in his Dominion The Basil-confession hath it thus That we must in all things submit to God first and next to the supreme Magistrate That the Lord hath intrusted you with a care of Religion is a truth that hath been maintained always by the Protestant against the Papist
whom the Lord hath appointed over his Kingdom in this world we wait upon the Lord for his Kingdom which is not of this world Roaring Boys Ranters and Dammers Here 's such a deal of do come let us eat and drink for to morrow we shall die the world hath been too long Priest-ridden King No more of that I 'll assure you that at the next Session of Parliament we shall provide severe Laws against that licentiousness and impiety which since the dissolution of Government we finde to our great grief hath over-spread the Nation Ch. Gentlemen of all Perswasions I pray hear what indulgence maybe allowed you Secretary to Papists What if you of the Catholick Way were discharged of all penalty for Recusancie to come to our Church save your incapacity of having any trust in Church or State provided that you were severely restrained both from speaking and publickly practising your Way Papists We 'll all submit As we do do not desire to be pressed to comply with your Ways so we desire not to press you to tolerate our Ways P. C. S. to Non-conformists If his Majesty and his Parliament shall think fit that you who cannot conform to all things established shall upon your peaceable behaviour enjoy Ordinances in your own Way what will you be willing to do for their satisfaction Non-conformists Any thing that in Reason or Conscience we may do Ch. Will you now you cannot assent or consent to all things in the Common-prayer yet use it as far as you can or come your selves with your followers to the place where it is used Mr. Baxter Dr. Bates c. It 's well known that as we do not absent our selves so we are not willing others should absent themselve from Common-Prayer L. B. L. Will you own the Ordination by Bishops in the way of the Church of England London-Ministers We have made it appear to the world in our Book called Jus divinum Ministerii that the Ordination by Bishops is valid Mr. Baxter p. 4. So eminent in Gods Graces and Gifts were the Bishops that their names will be precious whilst Christ hath on earth a Reformed Church Our Jewel our Usher our Davenant hath done so much against the Roman Usurpers that they will not be able to claw it off them to the last Moreover who knows not that most of the godly able Ministers of England since the Reformation did judge Episcopacie some of them lawful and some of them most fit and that before the late troubles c. the most through the Land did subscribe and conform to Episcopal Government as a thing not contrary to the Word of God So that it is evident that it is very consistent with a godly Life to judge Episcopacie lawful and just or else we should not have had so many learned and godly men of that minde L.B.W. Will you declare it unlawful upon any pretence whatsoever for any persons whether the Parliament or any other to assist the King or to endeavour any Reformation without his consent Mr. Jenkins First it 's a sin against Gods Ordinance Prov. 8.15 Secondly it 's a sin against the publick welfare they that are weary of Magistrates are weary of all the comforts and blessings of peace Thirdly it 's a sin against our own happiness Eccles 10.8 to resist the lawful Magistrate Good men will not be bad Subjects neither can evil men be good Subjects C. S. VVill you be contented to teach the people the necessary and undoubted Verities of Christian Religion declaring withal unto your people what influence such Doctrines ought to have upon their Lives and Conversations and stirring them up effectually as well by your examples as Doctrines to the practice of such Religious and Moral Duties as are the proper Results of the said Doctrines as Self-denial Contempt of the world Temperance Justice Obedience c. with a detestation of whatsoever is contrary to sound Doctrine Nonconf If we may but upon these terms enjoy the liberty of Gods Ordinance we shall think our selves obliged to bless God that we have seen your face S. D. For your part all ye the looser part of the people we desire you may offer what you agree upon among your selves which his Majesty will consider of in order to a publick Peace In the mean time you are wished to attend the publick Ordinances of God as far as you can in Conscience until an expedient may be sound in due time P. C. VVe shall enjoyn that there be nothing taught publickly but the great Truths wherein ye all agree and therefore we pray you attend upon publick Preaching and though you own not the men yet own the VVord not as the word of this or that man but as it is indeed the VVord of God Jesse Some may preach Christ out of envy and some out of contention but so Christ be preached we shall rejoyce and attend upon it Venning It is to be feared that they who turn their backs upon the Ordinance of God may turn their backs upon the God of Ordinances Anabaptists c. There are so many things in your Ordinances that we cannot like Orthodox There are many things I dislike in all places yet I frequent them which because they do not concern me I pass by peaceably without any further noise or disquiet VVe desire you onely to be present at the Ordinances of God and to submit to what is of God and to think as you please of what you see of man there All Moderate Men. VVe will be contented to attend the Ordinances of God in obedience to God and men onely we desire not to be urged to approve of what we cannot allow of H. If your practice be sober your judgements shall be at liberty Have you faith i. e. any private Opinion have it to your self in the sight of God onely forsake not the assembling of your selves together as the manner of some is but let me see you as ●he Primitive Christians meet with one accord in one place Fan. VVe desire so to do but onely we avoid mixt Assemblies L.B.C. If you will avoid mixt Assemblies you must avoid all Assemblies in the world Indeed as the Apostle saith we ought as far as it is possible to avoid all communion with unholy persons yet not altogether with the unholy in this world or with the covetous or extortioners for then must we needs go out of the world Fan. The desire of our soul is to walk according to that Rule wherefore Come ye out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord and touch not any unclean thing and I will receive you L.B.W. VVhat because you are enjoyned to come out from among Heathens will you leave us Christians too who own one God one Christ one Faith one Hope with you and look for one common salvation K. Are you who go under those several names of separation as Independents Anabaptists Quakers c. agreed upon one common way which you