have Very wel sayd wherupon we inferr also that to give voices in deciding of controversies and judging of synners is not a part of government but a power and right that the saincts out of office have The Elders are to teach direct and govern the church in election of officers they are to doo the like in judging excommunicating wicked persons and in all other publik affairs Of the exposition of Mat. 18.17 and why their Treatise was not particularly answered I have spoken before the special things therin are in this treatise repeted and so shal be here answered 2. Their second observation I like wel yeild unto that men may change and redress according to Gods word things that are amyss but withal I would have them 1. plainly to acknowledge wherin they erred and what they stablish for truth and 2. to take away by Gods word the reasons wherupon they builded before Which wither these our opposers have doon as they ought I leav it for the discreet reader to judge by their writings compared with those which were published heretofore to the contrary 3. The third for the churches goverment by the officers is that which we alwayes have and stil do yeild to as even now I shewed As for our former practise altered and as he sayth by me acknowledged towching the order and manner of the practise in one particular I grant it but for the power of the Church wherof we treat I deny it There never was such a practise in my dayes as wherby the Elders should be esteemed the Church and to have the povver of the same 4. The 4. observation is that our exceptions are such as the Anabaptists would object in much like manner Yet dooth he not shew this so to be and I know for their successive Ministerie they are neerer the Anabaptists than wee both for it and other points they build upon the very grounds of poperie as after shal be manifested But what doe vve except is it not from our former Articles and Apologie confirmed by scriptures from vvhich these are departed in penning also vvherof these that thus vvrite had a principal hand So they doo hereby not onely joyn vvith our cōmon adversaries vvho intvvite us vvith Anabaptistrie but impute weaknes to their ovvn former vvritings and cause vvherin more strength of truth hath appeared then ever they shal be able to pul dovvn hovvsoever they may assayl it The 5. observation is a mist cast before the readers eyes a collection of 7. things vvherin they vvould make men beleev vve are gone from that vve held heretofore The errour vvherof I vvil shevv hereafter vvhen as order requireth I have examined the ansvvers that they make for themselves to these our Articles vvhich novv next folovv The first point of difference in the Letter 1. Wheras we had learned and professed that Christ hath given the power to receiv in or to cut off any member to the whole body togither of every Congregation and not to any one or moe members sequestred from the whole now wee have been lately taught that the Church which Christ sendeth to for the redress of synns Mat. 18.17 is not to be understood of the whole body of the Congregation but of the Church of Elders And it being granted of al that with the Church is the power the Elders being the Church have the power and so not the whol body of the congregation togither And in the copie vvhich Lavvne printed The 24. Article of the Confession of our faith confirmed in our Apologie pag. 60.62.63 professeth that the povver to receiv in or to cut off any member is given to the whole body togither of every Christian Congregation Mat. 18.17 c. These have pleaded for the Eldership to be the Church Mat. 18. and to have both rightful power and able power to excommunicate though without against the consent of the body of the Congregation The scriptures to confirm our former doctrine and practise are in our Confession Psal. 122.3 Act. 2.47 Rom. 16.2 Mat. 18.17 1. Cor. 5.4 2. Cor. 2.6.7.8 Levit. 20.4.5 24. 14. Num. 5 2.3 Deut. 13.9 The reasons in our Apologie are nine the first referring to proofs of former positions the other 8 confirmed by sundry arguments doctrines practises gathered from the Prophetical and Apostolical scriptures For ansvver hereunto their Advertisement telleth vs many things First of their Treatise published on Mat. 18.17 touching vvhich I also have spoken before Neyther is this point of the Churches power therin plainly handled but closely caried neyther is ther any thing at al sayd to take avvay the other 8. reasons in our Apologie Let the reader compare the writings and judge There be also things formerly written both by others and by them selves touching this of Mat. 18. and things lately published against M. Bernard about it to these they give no answer at al yet cal they upon us to write more 2. Secondly they carp at this phrase the Church of Elders and would have it the Congregation or Assemble of Elders saying that so men might sooner perceiv the vanitie of our error And that I my self elswhere shew the word is sometime used for an Assemblie of Elders I answer 1. If they wil rase the word Church out of the Bible as unfit they may doo so in Mat. 18. and in this controversie or els they must give us leav to keep wonted known words which help men to discern the truth of matters 2. Neyther shew they any one scripture for the phrase they would have the Congregation of Elders neyther did I ever shew or could see the word Church so to mean in al the new Testament but in the old which now is changed I have observed it in some few places 3. But be it Church or Congregation I wil not much contend yet I know their eyes wil dazel that look hereby to discern in our doctrine eyther vanity or error Albeit I confess these our opposites have the Papists on their side for so Card Bellarmine expoundeth this Tel the Church that is the Prelate or the Congregation of Prelates Stapleton interpreteth the Church Mat. 18. to be the Ministers 3. Thirdly they observe that the scriptures of the old testament are quoted for our 24. Article as directly carying us for this matter to the Church of Jsrael which now we would not be brought unto c. I answer the first is true for the scriptures cited doo shew that the people were interessed in those publike actions with their magistrates and therfore there is no reason that now there ministers should claym the whole power to themselves The latter is untrue for we did consider and decide the matter between us by the scriptures of the old Testament compared with the new and so are stil ready to doo But alwayes with observing the differences between the state of the church then now which are many as the Apostles
say our controversie was about a Church established with officers things concerning people without officers are left to further consideration I answer true it is they sought alwayes to hide their errors and to put off things which pressed them to further consideration and the Elders having gott the Churches power into their hands they lysted not to scan the peoples right But we were necessarily drawn to controvert this point two wayes first because their errour did eat out the very constitution of the Church wherof they vvere as shal after be manifested Secondly because it vvas by themselves acknovvledged that vvhatsoever povver the people hav before is not to be takē away by their officers this therfore vvas an argument that manifested the evil vvhich lurketh in their nevv doctrine And vvho can soundly discuss any question if they look not to the foundation as Christ sayd to the Pharisees from the beginning it was not so 6. Finally vvheras vve shevved hovv their doctrine overthroweth the constitution of their Church as being vvithout povver from Christ they say First it were worth the knowing by whom the first man or two men of this church were received in and by what power I ansvver it is true they say and pray them therfore to shevv by vvhat povver their church began if they vvould have men acknovvledge it for true and planted by the povver of Christ Othervveise they must renounce their estate and begin a nevv As for ours it is shevved in our published vvritings vvhich if they can let them disprove as in Treat of the ministerie against M. Hildersh p. 73.74 Apologie p. 44.45.46.47 2. Secondly they say by our baptisme as also by accord in the truth we ar bound to communion in any thing lawful as God giveth occasion and opportunity I answer 1. they here turn from the question we speak of constitution of a particular church they tel us of communion by baptism and accord in the truth which extendeth to al churches in the world and to Saincts that ar not gathered and constituted into any particular church We speak of a church with power to receiv in and cast out though it have no officers they touch not this point unless they closely grant us the question to the overthrow of their opinion For if they yeild such power and practise to be a lawful thing in the communion of al such as ar baptised or doo accord in the truth they refute themselves if not al men may see how they seek to divert from the matter in hand 2. Secondly by their baptism they mean not onely the true baptisme in Christs church but the false baptisme in Antichrists as the article expresseth and after we ar to scan which if it be according to the scriptures which they cite the one baptisme that by one spirit baptiseth al into one body then are they returned into the cōmmunion and body of Antichrists synagogue if the church of Rome be it are bound to communicate even with Friers and Iesuites in any thing lawful as God giveth occasion and that is I suppose to hear them when they preach nothing but the truth or to pray with them when they in spirit pray to God in Christ c. I would be loth to wrong them their own words lead me to this if I gather amyss let them pardon me shew their meaning plainly for he that dooth truth cōmeth to the light 3. Thirdly without baptisme there may be a Church entred into covenant with God one with an other as all Israel passed into the covenant renued by Moses when al the men under 40. yeres old were uncirsed besides al the women 3. They thirdly say it is playn and undenyable that to chuse or give voices in election is not a part of goverment c. but an interest power right and libertie that the Saincts out of office have and should use c. I answer 1. First this is playn and undenyable so long as it pleaseth them not to deny it but if they change their mind in this point to morow as they have doon in the former about the peoples power to excōmunicate then we shal hear as we did before wher find we in the scriptures that God hath thus layd on the people without officers to make electiō where is the precept for it which be the examples of it c. They tel us it is playn but not one scripture is brought to shew it yet is it needful seing they know the Papists and other Prelates deny such elections without officers The Prelates wil shew them sundry examples wher it was doon by the counsel direction and government of officers as Act. 1.15.21 22. 6.2 3. 14 23 1. Tim. 3 1. 14.15 Tit. 1.5 but not one place where a people without officers attempted such a work Wherefore wee wish our opposites not to deal so slenderly as to tel men it is playn and undeniable so to leav it for we make no doubt but the sound proof of this point wil disproov their former errour 2. Secondly we have upon their bare word that to give voices in election of officers is no part of government we pray them in their next to shew whether then to give voices for deposition of unworthy officers be a part of government as also how they prove that to give voices for the reciving in and putting out of members in the Church is a part of government more than the other 3. Thirdly the reader may observ their covert cariage of this point whiles they speak but of giving voices in election but what say they about giving power of administration to the ministers who must doo that or how had these men that but by the people And if the people have power in the name of Christ to say to the elected Pastor Take thou authority to preach the word c. or in any other terms to give him pastoral office which had none before I hope they wil not deny but if that Pastor afterward proov a Wolf the same people may put him out of al his pastoral office and if they have that power why also may they not put him quite out of the fold and Church by the power of Christ that is excommunicate him And if it be not lawful for a people to give authority of Ministerie unto a man how then do these administer which renounced some of them their former office and preisthood given by the Prelates and as private men received a nue caling and ordination others from private estate were constituted Elders by the people Is this Ministerie now from heaven or from men 4. Lastly they say seing their doctrine overthroweth not the constitution of the Church of Jsrael nor of the primitive Churches it cannot therfore overthrow the constitution of their church or of any that is accordingly built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets c. I answer this in
Ministerie though with corruptions how wil they be able to bear out such as are excoÌ„municated for so great contempt and errour 3. Thirdly as Antichristians doo excoÌ„municate such as they should not so doo they baptise such as they ought not even open impenitent Idolaters and their seed the generation of Vipers which Iohn Baptist would refuse Yea Mr Iohnson himself hath sayd of a better estate then Romes that Gods covenant is sacrilegiously violated whiles it is sayd to the open wicked in delivering them the seals of Gods covenant Thou art righteous Therfore if the Popes excoÌ„municatorie bulls are but bubbles because they are unjustly executed his baptisme also will be found but a fiction no true seal of salvation to such as receive it of him Finally touching circumcision I think it cannot be manifested that any people 's fallen from God and his Church using it colourablie for a religious action as al Antichristians and heretiks doo baptism at this day did or were bound to cutt their foreskin the second time if they came unto the truth of God as for example the Colchians Aegyptians and Aethiopians whom histories mentioÌ„ to be circumcised or the Samaritans whom Mr Iohnson acknowledgeth to have stil vsed circumcision Hereunto we may add out of the Iewish records how they hold that Al have leav to circumcise yea though it be an uncircumcised person or a servant or a woman or a child circumcising in the place where ther is no man But an hethen may not circumcise at al yet if he doo circumcise ther is no need to return circumcise the second time If this rule stand we shal not need to repeat our outward washing in baptism though given us by Antichrist or any other aliants from the church covenant of promise Of the Church of Rome The Church of Rome being acknowledged by al that fear God to be the throne of Antichrist Mr Iohnson himself having professed that the hierachie and Church-constitution of Antichrist is the most detestable anarchie of Satan that ever was yet imitating now M. Gifford M. Bernard and other professed enemies of the truth he pleads for that Church after this manner The Apostle expressly teacheth that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God 2. Thes. 2 4. And by the Temple understanding the Church of God it wil folow that Antichrist should sit in the Church of God and is there to be sought and found and not among Jewes Turks Pagans c. neyther that Antichrist takes away wholly the church of God and every truth and ordinance of the Lord c. I answer truth errour are closely couched togither in this their plea for the discerning wherof we are to consider first how Antichrists church is described in Gods word secondly what the state of the church of Rome is at this day The Antichristian synagogue is by the holy Ghost caled a Beast which signifyeth a kingdom it is named also a great citie which noteth the largenes of that politie and kingdom It cometh up out of the earth as being of this world which Christs kingdom that coÌ„meth down from heaven is not and therfore is caled a man of syn and a great whore whose head is Abaddon or Apollyon the destroyer of others and himself the son of perdition and they that follow him are the children of damnation This wicked generation warreth against the Lamb Christ and against the saincts blasphemeth Gods name tabernacle and them that dwel in heaven â—hat is the true Church whose conversation is heavenly Yet doo they all this mischeif under shew of Christian religion therfore this beast hath horns like the Lamb Christ this whore is arayed with purple skarlet guilded with gold precious stones and pearles as if she were the Queen and spowse of Christ she hath peace offrings Vovves as if she were devowt in Gods service bread and waters as ready to refresh the weary sowls Her doctrines sweet amiable lyeâ— spoken in hypocrisie but yet confirmed with signes and miracles as if they came from heaven her power and efficacie great prevayling over the many and the mighty the Kings Princes of world deceiving al nations with her inchantments and if it were possible Gods very elect her continuance and outward prosperitie long her end miserable consumed with the spirit of the Lords mouth and abolished with the brightnes of his coÌ„ming and for her destruction the heavens shall rejoyce and sing praises to God Now for to find the accomplishment of these things we are directed by the now Romish religion to a Catholik or Vniversal church one part wherof lives on earth an other under the earth and a third part in heaven 1. On earth is the whole multitude of such as are named Christians through the world united as a catholik body under one visible head the Pope who with his 2 horns like the Lamb pretendeth to be Christs Vicar in the Kingdom Preisthood and is professed of his vassals to be that triâ—d precious corner stone that sure foundation in Sion Jsa 28.16 and it is declared defined and pronounced that it is of necessity to salvation for al men to be subject unto him Vnder this Captain are three bands of souldiers the first clergie men as Bishops Preists Deacons Subdeacons and the rest of those shavelings the second Lay men as Kings Pinces Nobles Citizens and Commons of al sorts and vocations the third sort is both of the Clergie and Laitie caled Monks or Regulars 2. Vnder the earth or in Purgatorie fyre are the sowles they say of al such as dye with venial synns whose payns are to be holpen by prayers and masses sayd for them by such as are alive on earth 3. In heaven are the sowls of men departed in the popish fayth and delivered from purgatorie some of which the Pope canonizeth for Saincts whom the people on earth are religiously to honour and pray unto as their mediators with God This church on earth cannot err in things which it commandeth men to beleev oâ— doo whither they be expressed in scripture or not therfore men must beleev in her and trust her in al things for the truth of the faith as touching us relyeth upon her authoritie and she hath power to make lawes which doo bind and constreyn mens consciences These things premissed I come to our Opposites arguments Their first reason from 2. Thes. 2.4 is unperfectly alledged for the text there sayth of the man of syn that he dooth sit as God in the TeÌ„ple of God wherupon their conclusion must be that Antichrist sitteth as God in the church of God And if they can prove that he is the true God I wil yeild that his temple is the true temple his Church the true
who had power from God to give the blessing and the action was also confirmed by the evidence of Gods spirit afterward but this people upon our opposites doctrine had no authority from God to doo as they did neyther could they shew any confirmation of the work by God if our former grounds fayl us The sentence given in the end by the Elders that leaned to the Pastors error was not that discourse they speak of at the end of the Treatise on Mat. 18. for that was privately penned afterward by the Pastor himself but a breif and yet large approbation of the things which the Pastor had shewed to be the truth and a promise that by the grace of God they would so practise Vpon which sentence giving we on the contrary approved our former profession published and shewed sundry reasons which hereafter shal be set down why we could not yeild to their new vowed practise And because they alwayes sought to extenuate the controversie as if it were but a strife about words or about the meaning of Mat. 18.17 We purposely prevented it signifying expressly before we parted that we would bear with them in their understanding of Mat. 18.17 so as they would yeild the point in controversie which was about the Churches power from other scriptures shewing it also by an other case that if we had to deal upon John 1. with an Arian that denyes the godhead of Christ if he would plainly and sincerely yeild to the truth of that doctrine though he thought it not proved by Iohn 1 where yet it is evidently proved we would bear with him therin And this we still offer unfeighnedly to these our opposite brethren let them yet directly and plainly renounce the error it self touching the power of the church now ingrossed into the Elders hands and the other errours that necessarily flow from the same and we wil bear with their judgement concerning Mat. 18.17 though we think of it otherweise that doo they Moreover seing we offred much more which concerneth not onely Mat. 18.17 but al other scriptures that we would notwithstanding our difference of judgement have continued together if our former practise might have been reteyned and themselves in their Advertisement can not deny this how doo they then bear the world in hand that the breach among us vvas for the understanding of Math. 18.17 Touching their Treatise on Mat. 18.17 the causes why I have not answered it are 1. When others heretofore as namely Mr. Smyth wrote against the truth which they formerly professed we al thought best not to answer til the second and third time we were excedingly provoked for we considered how the coÌ„mon adversary would rejoyce at our intestine troubles The same I minded here and these men should if they were not partial have doon the like 2. I had experience in former dealing vvith M. Smyth of his unstayednes that vvould not stand to the things vvhich himself had vvritten I mind the like in these Opposites vvho are not setled for the constitution of their Church and Ministerie upon any ground that I knovv of unless it be popish succession Their former vvritings about the Church and ministery and their present estate wil not stand togither Seing those books are unanswered by others they should answer them if they can themselves and shew us by Gods word what is allowable vvhat disallovvable in them Till they doo this vvho vvould vvillingly deal vvith them 3. Ther are 9. reasons in that our Apologie to confirm the povver of the Church novv in question the foresaid Treatise dealeth but against one of them leaving the rest there and vvhatsoever is vvritten of that argumeÌ„t in other our books unansvvered what reason have they to cal so upon others to write when so much is already written If they yeild us the cause upon the other reasons we wil not strive about the meaning of one scripture as before vve shevved 4. The meaning of Mat. 18.17 is handled by Mr. Robinson against Mr Bernard vvhose book our opposites so much respected and the false gloses upon that text sufficiently refuted vvhy doo not these men ansvver the things there vvritten but cal styl for more as if al men must leav other studies to folovv them in their hunting for preeminence 5. I have had intelligence of Mr. Robinsons further purpose to ansvver in particular that their treatise as occasion shal be given And in deed I for the love and respect that I have alvvayes had to these novv opposite brethren have desired their conviction rather by others then by my self vvho are both better able to perform it and are likely to be more regarded then I and to doo it vvith less publik scandal to the vvorld vvho desire nothing more then to see us that vvere so neerly joyned to sharpen our penns one against another Thus have I been stayed hitherto though novv as the things in that Treatise are repeted in this their Advertisement I shal discover also the insufficiencie of their reasons there alleged Novv as the Advertiser shevveth by examples of troubles in â—hurches heretofore that the godly vvise should not be offended at these dissensions accordingly doo I desire all syncere harted for to vvalk And further that he himself vvith others vvould look into the 3. particulars that he allegeth 1. For the troubles in Corinth the Apostle composeth by shevving the Church their place in Christ above their ministers 1. Cor. 3.21.22.23 vvhich might also if it vvere vvel observed end the strife that is novv among us 2. The contention about Easter as it vvas evil in it self being about mens traditions so vvas it as ill caried For they learned not to redress things as Paul before taught 1. Cor. 3. but contrarivveise as Hierom after telleth us by setting up one Elder about others that the seeds of schismes might be taken away Which humane vvisdom furthering the mysterie of Antichrist so far prevailed that about this their Easter strife Victor Bishop of Rome determined to have excoÌ„municated the East churches and had doon it but that Irenaeus blamed him and stayed it Thus ambition having vvrung the povver first out of the vvhole Churches hands into the Elders onely and then out of the Elders hands joyntly into ones alone began to vvork factions and styrrs in the churches vvorse then ever before 3. The troubles vvhich they speak of in the English church at Frankford in Q. Maryes dayes is even a picture of our present calamities and vvorthy of perpetual remembrance For there vvhen M. Horn the pastor vvith his felovv Elders vsurped authority above the church they vvere vvel vvithstood by the body of the congregation among vvhom vvere sundry men of vvisdom and learning And to appease that strife by the Magistrates counsel they agreed upon articles vvhich directly overthrovv the errors so stood for by these our opposers For thus the printed Discourse of the troubles of that church sayth The Discipline
implieth authority that it is proportionably answerable to the taking away by death c that it is a special use of the keyes given by Christ to the Apostles that the force herof is such as therby a man is not onely cast out of that particular Church wherof he was a member but is cutt off excluded from all churches vpon earth as on the contrary by baptisme wee are entred into communion with al Churches of Christ in the world By these things compared togither we may observ 1. that the church elders may by their sole authoritie give judiciarie sentence that a man shal be excommunicated answerable to the Magistrates in Israel that gave sentence a man should be put to death 2. That the Elders may also by authoritie in particular deliver a man to Satan by the power of Christ which is proportionably answerable to the taking away by death which in Israel themselves grant was to be doon by the hands of the people Thus doo the Elders now chalenge by proportion in the Church that which belonged both to Magistrates and people in the cōmon wealth But because they fear the people they shape them this deceitful proportion that their avoyding the excommunicate person is the executing or putting in execution as they ambiguously speak of the sentence answerable to the peoples stoning of a malefactor in Israel how fitly let al that have understanding judge For whether the people avoid him or not the man is judged and delivered to Satan and so cut off from the church as on the contrary when one is baptised by the minister whether the people keep company with him or not he is made a member of the church and as a man beheaded in Israel was surely dead whether the people refreyned from touching him or no. 2. Agayn they give no more to the people of that Church wherof he is a member then to the people of all other churches that are bound to avoid the excōmunicated person as wel as they 3. Yea they give hereby their people no more power then the Pope dooth to his marked servants for he also wil have the people avoyd such as he dooth excōmunicate and if this be the boasted right and libertie of the people they had as much in the greatest bondage of poperie as now when they are caried thus blindfold by propertions But they tel the people that if any can except against the Elders proceedings they shal be heard I answer First before whom and unto whom shal any man except against the Elders is it not before and unto the Elders themselves And is it meet that they should be judges in their own cases In Israel when any complayned of wrong in the Synagogues or Cities ther was an higher Court to control unruly Elders and to help the oppressed But now 2. or 3. Elders in a Church bearing themselves upon their forged authoritie from Mat. 18.17.20 may be lawless and who shal let them in their proceedings Secondly how should the people except when by these mens doctrine they are not bound to be present at the hearing and deciding of the controversie wil it not be a just blame upon them if they except against a matter which they have not heard discussed Thirdly when the party accused shal except against the Elders proceedings as commonly he wil doo for if he acknowledged himself to have synned he should not need to be excōmunicated may the people now require to hear the case debated between the Elders and him nay they plead in their Treatise on Math. 18. saying But where hath the Lord appointed a rule of further proceeding beyond that of the Elders governours for hearing the brethrens causes and judging between a man and his brother c. And agayn the Elders also are the Churches officers c. so as when they have heard examined admonished and iudged according to the word of God it is to be estemed as doon by the Lord and the Church c. Thus let the mā except what he wil the judgm t is at an end the Lo hath doon it the Church hath doon it because the Elders have doon it and it must be presupposed that they have doon it according to the word of God though the man except never so much and though the scriptures foreshew of judges that were wolves not sparing the flock and latter dayes abundantly confirm the same And thus when a Naboth is condemned by wicked Elders if any except on his behalf they wil take him in a snare that reproveth in the gate perhaps he shal hear it sayd by what authoritie doo you speak are you one of the Church spoken of in the 1◠of Matthew for the Elders have power to deal with him also that shal except and can easily bring him within the compass of a contentious person or an oppugner of goverment and cast him likeweise out of the Church that a man sometime were as good take a Lion by the paw as except against the Elders proceedings Next folow their many questions and other matters imputed unto us wherein we observ how when arguments fayl them for their own cause they seek to darken the truth by casting clowds before the readers eyes 1. First they ask whither in Jsrael the Lord abridged the people of their right and libertie c. I answer No but these men that by wrested proportions give the ministers of the church the power that Magistrates Preists and people had in Israel doe abridge the people of their right as before is manifested And for the further clearing of it seing ther were diverse governours in Israel as the Preists and Levites in the Temple the ministers in the synagogues the Elders or Magistrates at the gates of the cities and these also divers and of unequal power as before is shewed I ask of them agayn whither now the Eldership of every church be proportionable in power and goverment unto al those governours and if not unto al unto which of them 2. Secondly they ask whither the people have any more right and authoritie in the churches goverment now then the people of Jsrael had in those dayes I answer they should not seek to intangle by ambiguitie of terms First we give not to the people goverment as before I have shewed but a right and power to observ and doo al the commandements of Christ touching his prophetical preistly and kingly office by the Elders teaching guiding and governing of them in the Lord. 2. The goverm t in Israel was diverse by Magistrates in the gate by Preists in the sanctuarie by ministers in the synagogues To the Magistracie al Christians are to be subject now as they were then for it is an humane ordinance tending to civil peace and concerneth al men whither within the church or without indifferently The external Preisthood of Israel is accomplished in Christ and now abolished Heb. 7.
church Otherweise if he be but an Idol and not God his Temple church and body wil prove but an Idol like himself and his blasphemie is worse then theirs which sayd they were Jewes and were not but did lye and were the synagogue of Satan Secondly they take it for granted that by the Temple is meant the church and so goe on in obscuritie Wheras the Temple did primarily figure out Christ Joh. 2.19.21 and in the heavenly Ierusalem the true church ther was no other temple seen but the Lord God almightie and the Lamb Christ which are the Temple of it Rev. 21.22 If in this sense we understand that speech of Paul touching Antichrist then must we translate the words as some ancient Doctors have doon eis ton Naon for the Temple or as if he himself were the Temple and so in deed Antichrist taketh upon him the person and office of Christ under pretence of his Vicarship shewing himself that he is God proclayming himself to be the brydegroom of the Church which is the office of Christ yea taking a title above him for wheras Christ is caled Pontifex magnus the Great high Preist the Pope is usually intituled Pontifex maximus the Greatest high-preist and reason ther is for it because in the Pope ther is power above all powers as well of heaven as of earth as in a publick Council it was spoken of this Beast Now that these things should be true of the man of syn otherwise then by lyes spoken in hypocrisie none of grace I know wil affirm Secondarily the Temple figured the Church but first the catholik or universal church Eph. 2 21. then every particular church by proportion 1 Cor. 3 16 17. Which of these two our opposites doo intend they shew not If they mean a particular church it wil not agree with the prophesies of Antichrist whose Citie or church is so great as peoples kinreds tongues nations doo dwel in the streets therof Neyther is that answerable to the Temple in Israel which was not for one synagogue but for the whole natiō of the Iewes and for the Gentiles that came to the faith through the world If they mean the catholik or vniversal church vvhich indeed Antichrist claymeth for his Temple then we are to be taught of them how that whoorish company that worship the Beast and Dragon can possibly be the true catholik church and spowse of Christ otherweise then by counterfeysance and lying ostentation even as the Divil himself is an Angel of light And the very word Temple leadeth vs to vnderstand Antichrists church to be but a counterfeyt For what was the Temple or Tabernacle in Israel Not the Church or congregation of Gods people properly for they were the worshipers of God in the Tēple but it was a sacramental sign of Gods dwelling with his people as it is written they shal make me a sanctuarie that J may dwell among them So Solomon built the Temple that God might dwel therin and for the times under the gospel God promised J wil set my sanctuary among them for ever my Tabernacle shal be with them J wil be their God they shal be my people and the fulfilling herof is set down Rev. 21 3. behold the tabernacle of God is with men and he wil dwel with them and they shal be his people So in Revelat. 11.1 the Tēple is distinguished frō thē that worship therein which is the people The Temple then was an outward sign of Gods presence with his people and of his inward dwelling in their harts by faith and by his Spirit unto their salvation so Antichrists Temple is an outward shew of his presence with that seduced people in whose harts he dwelleth by Popish faith and by his Spirit of error carying them to damnation But as Antichrist shal not professedly deny the true God or Christ though in deed and truth he falsly sheweth himself that he is God so shal he not professedly deny the Temple or church of God but falsly vaunt his adulterous synagogue to be the same Gods true temple and tabernacle is in mount Sion in heaven wher God sitteth on a throne and dwelleth among his people wher is the ark of his covenant and from thence lightnings voices thundrings earthquake and hayl come forth against the Antichristians his enemies and vials of his wrath powred out upon the throne of the beast and on the men that have his mark On the contrary the Beast which is the kingdom of Antichrist ascendeth from beneath out of the bottomless pit and blasphemeth this heavenly tabernacle and sitteth in Babylon upon the Dragons throne and fighteth against the Lamb and against the Saincts treading under foot the holy Citie and casting down the place of Christs sanctuarie When th'Apostle therfore telleth us that Antichrist sitteth as God in the Temple of God it is to be understood first of their invading and destroying of Gods church and people as the hethens of old dealt with Ierusalē dwellers therin secōdly of their own vayn ostentatiō whiles they will have it caled the Christian catholik church and the Pope the head of the same The next point that Antichrist is to be sought there and not among the Jewes Turks Pagans is a fallacie from an insufficient division for al out of the true Church are not Jewes or Turks or Pagans ther is a fourth to make up the mease even popish Antichristians and among these is the Man of syn to be found though with a visar on his face and a sheepskin on his back In the true Church he hath somtimes been found raunging as a wolf but not reigning as a God which in his own Temple he dooth wher he is acknowledged Our Lord God the Pope and h Thou art an other God on earth and To beleev that our Lord God the Pope might not decree as he hath decreed it were a matter of heresie and O thou that takest away the synns of the world have mercy upon us with other like intollerable blasphemies Thirdly they say Antichrist takes not away wholly the church of God and every truth and ordinance of the Lord. I answer neyther did the Divil take away wholly every truth and ordinance of God from among the hethens but they reteyned many rites of Gods worship received from their fathers as before is noted Yet in very deed so much as in them lay and us stood with the safetie of their deceitful kingdom the Divil of old and Antichrist his son of late have sought wholly to take away the church truth of God and to put lyes in the place But God hath nourished the woman his church in the wildernes from the presence of the Serpent Rev. 12.14 And for further answer hereof let us hear what M. Iohnson
filthy potion that is in it frō the Beasts counterfeyt Lambs horns as wel as from his Lions mouth and Bears pawes We may not in the truest Church in the world partake with their synns yet is not every true Church that synneth Babylon Secondly she being in this forlorn estate she is but a lump of syn a man of syn a child of perdition the Beast is not one person but the whole kingdom M. Iohnson himself hath acknowledged more then once that the man of syn is the false Church religion of Antichrist compared to the body of a man and consisting of all the parts togither Now to the defiled and unbeleeving nothing is pure their sacrifices are abominable their prayers are turned to syn We acknowledg therfore no good or holy thing in Antichrists synagogue as touching her use of it Thirdly we renounce not any good thing because that harlot dooth chalenge abuse it but we practise Gods ordinances as he hath cōmanded condemning utterly the profanation of them by Antichrist 7. They further allege that the Church of Rome was at the first set in the way of God since which time she is fallen into great apostasie as Jsrael did in which estate she hath kept sundry truthes and ordinances of God as Israel also did Which causeth a twofold consideration of her estate 1. in respect of the ordinances of God still reteyned among them 2. and of the mixture of their own abominations Jn regard of the one to acknowledge the truth and church of God there in regard of the other to observ their apostasie and confusion against Antichrist and for this mixture to separate from them and to practise every ordinance of God which was and is in that church leaving onely their corruptions least we fal into Anabaptistrie and other evils I answer they doo but roll the first stone saying the same things comparing Antichrists church with Israel wheras the holy Ghost compareth it with the gentiles even the most vile the Sodomites Aegyptians Babylonians and hethen Romans as before I have shewed In all which nations there were many truthes ordināces of God reteyned abused which truthes made them no true Church unless we wil say al the world was Gods true Church But I wil folow their particulars The Church of Rome they say was at first set in the way of God I answer ther was at Rome such a Church in Pauls time but the Romish Church now is a Beast since that time sprung out of the bottomless pit a Catholik monster dispersed as they feign through earth heaven and purgatorie as before I shewed such a Church Paul never saw but by the spirit of prophesie foretold of it That Church then was Saints worshiped God this Church now is an habitation of Divils and worshipeth Divils Since that time say they she is fallen into Apostasie True say I even soon after Pauls time for then the mysterie of iniquitie did work and many Antichrists were gone out whiles the Apostles lived For which their Apostasie like Israels when they would not repent as Christ threatned some that were new fallen into such synns the candlestick the Church was removed the Church of Rome as Paul forewarned for unbeleef was cut off among others and for a punishment of their Apostasie God delivered the East Churches into the hands of Mahomet and the West Churches into the hands of that false-horned beast Antichrist even as Israel and Iudah of old for their like synns were delivered into the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians And this Paul prophesied that ther should be a departing frō the faith before that Man of syn should be disclosed and because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved therfore God would send upon them that Adversarie with Satans power and strong delusion to beleev lyes that they might be damned Thus Mahomet Antichrist were Gods 2 plagues to bring not onely the death of body but of sowl upō thē that loved not the truth but departed frō it For when the great mountayne which is the kingdom of Babylon Antichrists monarchie burning with the fyre of ambition and strife was cast into the sea that is among peoples and nations then the living creatures that were in the third part of the sea so corrupted and bloody dyed lived not agayn for a thowsand yeres as did the godly which worshiped not the beast Although therfore we may truely call the state of Mahometisme and Antichristianisme apostasie yet we are taught of God to understand such apostasie as was among the hethens in Sodom Aegypt and Babylon and so Rome is caled not onely figuratively as somtimes the Iewes are caled people of Gomorrah but spiritually that is in deed and effectually for the spirit and life so to speak of all their abominations are in her most powrful and apparant So their comparison with Israel falleth too short in mesure though Israel also when they forsook God and his Church and builded new Temples were not Gods true Temple or Church as before is proved Their cōsideratiō in respect of Gods ordinances to acknowledge the church of God there is a speculatiō of their own not of God For the stealing abusing Gods ordināces mixing thē with their own inventiōs maketh not a people Gods people or Ch any more thē a true mās mony in a theefs purse maketh the theef an honest mā If it were so then the hethens when they sacrificed swine were to be condemned but when they sacrificed bullocks and sheep were to be approved as Gods Church for they kept Gods ordinance asvvel as Rome with their sacrifice of the Mass. When they worshiped idols they were to be condemned but when they worshiped the true God in their ignorant manner they were to be justified as his people so when they kept the feasts of new moons they were to be praised as Gods Church for it was an ordinance of his but when they kept their Bacchanalia to be disclaimed for heretiks And what wil this come unto at the last but to justify the Divil as he is a creature of God and transformed into an Angel of light but to condemn him as he is a black Divil and Apostate from his original Their fear least they should fall into Anabaptistrie is before defrayed but as some mariners to avoid Charybdis have falln into Scylla so these to shun the shelves of Anabaptistrie have run their ship upon the rocks of Poperie 8. Their next double consideration is about the covenant of God made with his people For oftē the people on their part break the covenāt when the Lord doth not so on his part but stil counts them his people calls thē to repentāce folowes them somtime with judgm t somtime
beat the path for al licenciousnes For although the scripture sayth he that committeth syn is of the Divil and we know that whosoever is borne of God synneth not but he that is begotten of God keepeth him self and that wicked one toucheth him not notwithstaÌ„ding men may be as prophane as Esau as filthy in life as Sodom as idolatrous and synful as the Aegyptians and Babylonians and yet if they wil but cal theÌ„selves Christians and be outwardly baptised they may be blamed in words and separated from by men but yet justified as Gods true Church they and their seed in his covenant of grace sealed with baptisme which is to remission of synns and what need they care for more Who wil feare his estate or amend his life for the doctrine of such men as pul down with the left hand build up with the right Is not this rather to strengthen the hands of the wicked that he should not return from his wickednes by promising him life Moreover this acknowledging al that profess Christ and are baptised to be true Churches having the true baptisme of God wil necessarily draw unto a general communion with al such societies wher men think actually no evil is committed as may fal out ofteÌ„ in the sermons of Friers Iesuits and other false Prophets for with true visible Churches and members of Christ who may not communicate so it be not in euil And thus Christians may come to that vanity coÌ„fusioÌ„ vvhich was among the Hethens of whom an ancient Doctor noteth that though they had infinite and contrary opinions about the Gods and their religion yet al of them kept communion togither in their Temples and sacrifices Wheras Mr. Ioh. referreth us to his first writings in answer to M. Iacob pag. 7. 13. and 47. as having then written somwhat tending this way which now he pleads for the Reader may see by comparing them how farr they differ There touching England he distinguisheth between their Church estate in respect wherof he is perswaded they cannot be judged true Christians and the personal estate of some considered apart from their Church constitution that they may wel be thought in regard of Gods election to be heyrs of salvation and in that respect true Christians so in pag. 13. 47. touching the Church of Rome and some Gods elect in it Although in pag. 146 he is perswaded whosoever lives dyes a Papist and member of that Church of Antichrist in the knowledge profession and maintenance of that religion in the parts therof can not of us be esteemed to live and dye in the estate of salvation Now what is that to his preseÌ„t plea for the Church baptisme of Rome but rather the contrary And for us we never disputed with any touching Gods elect which we leave unto himself who onely knovveth those that are his We deny not but ther may be of the elect in al false Churches even as Satan hath his reprobates in the true Churches I hold it presumption for any to limit God by how smal means or mesure of faith and knovvledge he vvil save a man Who dares deny but God had many elect among the Hethens after he had separated Israel from them Yea God expresly sayd vven he made Israel his peculiar people that yet al the earth was his vvhich are the vvords of the covenant generally Wherfore vve leave Gods secret counsels to himself as he vvilleth us and doe consider onely the visible state of Churches by the rules of Gods Lavv and promises Finally in that very book vvhich he mentioneth hovv sharply doth M. Iohns inveigh against his opposers and against M. Hooker that pleaded for the Church of Rome because of some truthes there reteyned saith that what by the Prelats and their Proctours on the one hand and the Pharisâ—ical dawbing reformists on the other all may justly fear least the end of that Church wil be to look back not onely in part but even wholly to the Romish Egipt and Sodom and to wollow agayn in the same myre from which they would seem al this time to have been washed When the Prelats and Reformists shal see what the same man now writeth himself for that Romish Egypt what wil they say but that even he also is come to dawb with them for company and fear a further fall Of their judgment of the Church of Rome translated out of M. Iunius To countenance their cause the more they set it out with the name and judgment of a learned man now deceassed Against whoÌ„ themselves wrote heretofore when they would have been loath to stand to his judgment But what wil not men doo for help in time of need The thing borrowed from him is in deed his own judgment rather then proof of argument I shal therfore the more breifly touch it yet not medling with the author who I hope is at rest in the Lord but with these his translators The Church of Rome wherof they treat is properly they say the company which is at Rome as Paul wrote Rom. 1. abusively it is al the Churches on earth cleaving to it and the doctrine constitution therof They treat of the first but would have men by proportion understand the same of the later I answer A Church ther was at Rome in Pauls time beloved of God caled Saints whose faith was published through the whole world A Church or peece rather of a Church ther is at Rome now loathed of God caled Divils whose whordoms abominations are famous through al the earth In deed and truth ther is a great Citie spiritually caled Sodom Aegypt and Babylon Rev. 11.8 16.19 dispersed over the world under the name of a Christian Catholik Church whose cheif place throne is Rome As for the congregation of Saints that was there in Pauls time it is gone long since and the Man of syn with his worshipers come in the place Between these two ther is no just proportion for what concord hath Christ with Belial 2 Cor. 6.15 The Church of Rome considered as a subiect they say hath 2. parts Pastours and the flock of Christ for which Church th'Apostle of old gave thanks to God Rom. 1 8. Neyther doo we deny this subiect to be at Rome eveÌ„ at this day because we trust ther is God caling persons caled the caling it self yet in her which togither in one giveth being to a Church I answer First I deny that God is there caling as in his Church but the man of syn sitts there as God calling all to worship him and his calling is by the working of Satan and in al deceivablenes of unrighteousnes among them that perish and the persons caled are deluded to beleev lyes 2 Thes. 2.9 10 11. Al these togither give being to Antichrists church but not to Christs And we are sure God caleth out of her such
children that dwel with their adulterous mother that is to abhorr her syn with speech and signe to cal her back from evil absteyn themselves from it and in al things cleav to their father betake theÌ„selves into his closet c. I answer thus it appeareth that these our opposites are returned to acknowledge the whore of Rome to be their mother whom they feign to be as woman which lyeth in a deadly sort swollen with waters of the dropsie or with poison which had long agoe given up the ghost if God by the imposition of his grace c. had not nourished and kept her warm Now to leav their mother thus on her sick bed as they have doon disclayming al Christian dutie unto her which is due to a true Church in corruption is but the part of unnatural children Whiles God dooth nourish keep her warm wil they quite abandon her let them return and cherish her also and al her members and see if ther be any baulm to heal her wounds and to comfort her As for us we have been taught of God that in respect of him she is dead long agoe in her syns Rev. 20.5 with Ephes. 2.1 having been the marked whore worshiper of the Beast from which death she is not risen to live reign with Christ. Although to this world she liveth and reigneth in pleasure til at one day death otherwise also come upon her she be burnt with fire Rev. 18.7.8 And then shal we be so far from mourning at her funeral as we shal rejoyce with the heavenly multitude and sing Hallelujah when God hath given Sodoms judgment on her and we see her smoke rise up for evermore Rev. 19 1.2.3 Finally to back M. Iunius judgment they cite Amandus Polanus Bart. Keckerman who sayd that Antichrist shal sit in the temple of God not Jewish but Christian c. and as a rotten apple is an apple but corrupt so that Church is corrupt c. I answer they may I confess cite diverse men that were mistaken in judging of that rotten church which wil help these our opposites nothing who have seen and acknowledged better now goe back Bernard was a learned man in his time and is counted a Sainct and he playnly reproved many Romish abominations and sayd the beast in the Revelation which hath a mouth speaking blasphemies occupieth Peters chaire yet himself doted overmuch upoÌ„ the bewty of that harlot when he wrote thus at an other time to her Leman the Pope Thou art the great sacrificer the cheif Preist thou art Prince of Bishops heyr of th'Apostles thou art in primacie Abel in government Noah in patriarchship Abraham in order Melchisedek in dignity Aaron in authoritie Moses in judgship Samuel in power Peter in anoynting Christ. It is not therfore to be marveiled at though wise godly men be mistaken for in many things we syn all Jam. 3 2. But I have shewed how the scriptures doo judge of this sorceress and could also allege many learned mens judgements but I wil goe no further then our own country Mr Cartwright speaking of the baptising of children sayth Jf both parents be Papists or condemned heretiks c. their children cannot be received to baptisme because they are not in the covenant c. And agayn Jf the corruption be such as destroyeth the foundations as in the Arians which overthrow the person of Christ as in the Papists which overthrow the office of Christ they being no Church ought to have no priviledge of the church Mr Perkins writeth thus As for th'Assemblies of Papists understanding companies of men holding the Pope for their head and beleeving the doctrine of the council of Trent in name they ar caled Churches but in deed they are no true or sound members of the catholik church for both in their doctrine in their worship of God they rase the very fouÌ„datioÌ„ of religioÌ„ And agayn Jt is no more a church in deed then the carkesâ— of a dead man that weareth a living mans garment is a living man though he look never so like him And agayn he hath a treatise and Assertion that A reprobate may in truth be made partaker of all that is conteyned in the religion of the church of Rome and a Papist by his religion cannot goe beyond a reprobate and bringeth 4. arguments for proof hereof and endeth with this Corolarie that A man being indued with no more grace then that which he may obteyn by the religion of the Church of Rome is stil in the state of damnation D. Fulk answering the counterfeit Catholik saith Jt is evident that the true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles times and telleth the Papist yow cry the Catholik Church the Catholik Church when yow have nothing in deed but the Synagogue of Sathan Agayn The Church of Antichrist is founded upon 7 hills Rev. 17. upon the traditions dreames fantasies and devises of men c. Therfore sayth he in no wise may she be called the city of God but Babylon the mother of fornication Sodom Aegypt where our Lord is dayly crucified in his members D. Willet answering Bellarmin sayth We deny utterly that they are a true visible Church of Christ but an Antichristian Church and an assembly of Heretiks enemies to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Agayn he sayth 2. Thes. 2. he shal sit in the temple of God that is the visible Church that which sometime was the true visible Church as the Church of Rome and after should be so takâ—n reputed and chalenged as it is at this day by the Papists c. He shal sit in the Temple of God that is take upon him the name title of the Church and yet an adversary unto it And agayn The Turk is out of the Church and so in truth is the Pope but yet he challengeth to him and his the name of the Church M. Bale compareth the Pope and Turk togither thus So glorious are the pretenses of Romish Pope Mahomet that they seem unto them which regard not these warnings the very Angels of light and their Churches most holy congregations being very divels with the very dregs of darknes The Pope in his Church hath ceremonies without number none end is there of their babling prayers their portases bedes temples altars songs howrs bells images organs ornaments Iewels lights oilings shavings c. that a man would think they were proctours of paradise On the other side Mahomet in his Church is plenteous also in holy observations they wash themselves oft frequent their temples pray 5. tymes in the day they reverently incline they lye prostrate on the ground they fervently cal to God they absteyn from wine they abhor idols c. But unto what end this holynes leadeth the sequel declareth Daniel maketh these two but one because they are both of one
wicked spirit c. The Pope maketh his boast that he is the High Preist he is of equal power with Peter he cannot err he is head and spouse of the Church c. Mahomet braggeth also that he is that great Prophet the promised Messias the Apostle of both testaments c. He is wel contented that Christ be an holy Prophet and a most worthy creature yea the word of God the sowl of God and the spirit of God conceived of the Holy Ghost but he wil in no case grant him to be the Son of God nor that he dyed here for mans redemtion Both these two mainteyners of mischief allow Moses law the Psalter the Prophets and the Gospel yea they commend them advance them sing them read them honour them c. yet wil they have their own filthy lawes preferred above them the Pope his execrable decrees and Mahomet his wicked Alkoran ells wil they murther men without measure Thus though they outwardly appear very vertuous yet are they the malignant Ministers of Satan denying the Lord which hath redeemed them By these may wee mesure their inferiour Merchants having their livery mark I might allege many moe especially of the Martyrs in England which dyed in this testimonie against that false whore but it is ynough that Gods word dooth condemn her as before is manifested The 6. point of difference in the letter WE had learned that al particular congregations are by al means convenient to have the counsel and help one of another in al needful affaires of the Church as mēbers of one body in the common faith yet here when differences had arisen about our common faith and could not amongst our selves be cōposed they would not desire nor consent to have desired the help of our sister Church at Leyden although it were instantly urged by many members that their assistance should be had With this they joyn the 9. out of the printed copy to the effect of the former Against this they except 1. that though for some reasons they absteyned from desiring it or sending for them or giving their consent so to doo yet they were content to permitt it which was not a denying of the practise of it as the printed copy objecteth c 1 Cor. 7.6 Deut. 24.1 I answer the scriptures on which we grounded that article being Act. 15. chap. 1. Cor. 14.33.36 shew an other manner of dutie then a permission For when dissention had arisen in the church of Antioch they ordeyned that some should goe up to Ierusalem unto the Apostles Elders about the question And the messengers were sent forth of the Church and were received by the Church at Ierusalem the Apostles and Elders who came togither with one accord after discussing and agreement wrote to the Church of Antioch what had seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to them And Paul sheweth a reason of such mutual entercourse when he sayth Came the word of God out from you eyther came it unto yow onely 1 Cor. 14.36 Wherfore seing the word of God was come unto the Church of Leyden as unto us and considering the practise that was in the APOSTOLIKE Churches heretofore and our profession to walk according it is but a sory answer to say they would permitt of it if others did it as Moses permitted the bill of divorse for the hardnes of mens harts and as Paul spake a thing by permission not by commandement For we think those Apostolical practises Act. 15. to be in sted of commandements unto us Philip. 3.17 And our Confession noteth it as a dutie even by al means convenient By this al may see how weak a defense they make for their proceedings Their reasons folow 1. that the other Church we were in peace togither if by this occasiō the peace should be brokē they should not say they sēt for thē I answer this exceptiō wil lye against al Churches in the world that are at peace and might have been objected by the contentious at Antiochia Act. 15. and wil be colour to cut off al use of that practise and of our former profession 2. That the Church of Leyden was in the same error with us who desired their help I answer this also might the troublers of the Church in Antioch have objected as colourably against the Church of Ierusalem Act. 15. it is a barr to cut of al help from other Churches Yea if any heresie be raysed by the officers in a Church contrary to their former faith they may thus except against al Churches unless they wil fal into the same errors with them 3 Thirdly they allege former experience with others I answer we never had experiēce of the like M. Smyth in deed leaving the truth and broaching his heresie against the translated scripture would needs publish it in our Church It is one thing to raise up a new error as did he an other thing to mainteyn the ancient faith as did the Church of Leyden with us So that which they fourthly allege is but a pretence that al wil make be their errors never so new they that urged circumcision Act. 15. could plead the anciēt practise in Israel farr better then these our opposites can doo for the power of their Eldership 4 Their next exception about a letter written by some to that church a copy wherof was desired but not granted c. is an occasion taken by that accident But they know that before that letter was written they signified their unwillingnes to intreat their help and now were glad that they had gotten a show to hold them off 2. For the Letter mentioned I did think it was meet they should have sent it and so I wish they had though they shewed reasons of their not doing it for the present but have since that time sent thē a copy 5. They next object my own subscribing of those letters to Leyden c ask whether I denyed the practise of that article c. I answer first I had sundry times signified in publick my mind that their help should be desired in the end if we could not agree but we would first use al means among our selves so I never was of their mind who refused absolutely to desire their help this they wel know Secondly I subscribed those Letters because I thought it meet that a copy of the foresayd letter should have been sent as before I signified Thirdly for the last letter which to my remembrance I consented to they know I refused to subscribe it til some words which implied an absolute denyal of requesting their help were put out and changed Fourthly when no means among our selves could end the strife they know how I both intreated them to consent they might be sent for when they would not my self went and obteyned their cōming In deed I was loth to trouble them without urgent cause with my brethren
should be charged by 2. or 3. witnesses with heresy blasphemy or the like crime and complaynt thereof be made to the Church Mr. Iohnson in this his Answer coÌ„fesseth that the Church he would be asked whither womeÌ„ and childreÌ„ or no may depose al her officers joyntly persisting in transgression though in the same place he mince the matter too small in saying they may depose or refuse them separate from theÌ„ and againe refuse them Wheras to depose and to separate from or refuse are very divers For 1. to separate from the Eldership requires no power but libertie and therfore may be doon by one man or woman upon just occasion so cannot deposition be upon any occasion but by the Church for which deposition of al the officers of the kingdom of Christ the church a man would think the power of Christ were needful and that by it such a judgment should passe out Besides the Church in deposing her officers dooth not separate her self from them to speak properly but them from her Wel to take the least libertie he wil give the people If they may separate from al their officers persisting in transgression then they must receive the complaynt of sin which is orderly brought and by sufficient witnesses against them and must examine and judge the matter Now if it argue power to receive a complaynt of sin against one brother and to examine and judge it and so to censure him by excoÌ„munication if ther be cause dooth it not also argue power to receav a complaynt of sin agaynst all the officers to examine and judg it and so to censure them as their is cause by deposition But what now shall the Elders do accounting themselves innocent and wrougfully accused whilst the Church thus examineth things and judgeth of them Shall they surâ—ease their government and fayl the Church in so great a â—eed and would M. Iohnson so practise or are they not now to do a speciall work of theyr government not onely in preserving order but in directing instructing and guiding the Church by the wod of God in her whole procedings By which it appeareth that judging of sin and power to suppresse it is one thing and government for the right use and ordering of the same another thing The officers which are judged do govern and the bodâ— of the Church which judgeth them is governed by them We may yet further see this difference even in the Lordly governments of this world and that both in Peace and Warre In the civile government of our own land then the which none in the world in the right vse of it is more excellent when a malefactor comes to be arraigned at the Assises or Sessions he is to be tryed by his country a competent company where all cannot possibly passe vpon him which they cal the Iury whose power and sentence is of such force as that the Lord Cheif justice himself and all the Bench with him cannot proceed agaynst it eyther for the quitting or coÌ„demning of the person and yet the Bench governeth the whole action and the Iury is by them according to law to be governed I wish the Elders with whoÌ„ we have to do would allow the body of the church the like liberty at their Sitting as they call it that is at their spirituall Sessions or rather that they would better consider that they are as Ministers to stand and serve and not as Lords to sit and judge Lastly when an army is sent against the Kings and their own enemies the government is in the Captains and Officers but so is not al the power for fighting with and subduing of their and their kings enemies Neyther is all the power of the church which is an army with banners in the officers alone for the the subduing of Christs and their enemies sin and Sathan though the government be Thus may the difference plainly be seen betwixt power and government in the opening of which I have been the longer because 1. I think it a mayn ground of our controversie 2. Our opposites do much insult over us as speaking contradictions when we yeeld the officers all the goverment and yet deny theÌ„ al the power 3. The weaker sort ar much misled and caried away thorough want of discerning this difference I proceed to a second thing and affirm that Christ hath not left to the church amoÌ„g men onely a ministerial power which he confusedly calleth government as he sayth He hath left the word of God and gospell in the church which is lively and mighty in operation peircing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit c. ruling and reigning in and over the very hearts and lives of men binding their consciences and bringing into captivitie every thought to the obedience of Christ. I know men can onely minister this power whither in doctrine or discipline as they speak But it is one thing to say the power is onely ministerial and another thing that men can onely minister it For men may be the ministers onely of that power which is kingly and Lordly in it self and so over men as this is So the saints can only minister their kingly power by participatioÌ„ of Christs aÌ„noynting as one speciall grace they have received of which more hereafter Now in laying down the things wherwith he chargeth me he alters my words misinterprets my meaning and conceals that which I have writteÌ„ and he read in my book for the explaning of the same And first he sayth I have taught that the people are as Kings one over another that I advance them one over another as Kings and above their governours intitling theÌ„ with Kingly Lordly power that is goverment as he explaines himself in the outward policie of the Church I doo not in these places or any other advance the people one over another much lesse over their officers in the outward policy of the Church that is as he explains his meaning in the government of it I doo every where profess the Officers the governours and the people the governed by them Neyther do I any where affirm that the people ar Kings or as kings one over another as he chargeth me I say in one place that the saynts are not Kings for themselves alone but for their brethren also as they are not Preists onely for themselves but for their brethren And in another place that every one of the faithful is a King not onely to him self but to every other member as he is a Preist and a Prophet c. Here is a King one for another and one to another but not one over another much lesse over the officers for government in the external policie of the Church The playn and simple truth then is whatsoever men eyther mistake of ignorance or suggest of an evil mind that we do not cal the saynts Kings in respeâ—t of outward order and government as though they were to order
be one in substance concerning faith in Christ unto salvation Hâ—b 11. sheweth also great differences between their condition and ours touching the clear manifestation of Gods grace and the outward politie of the Church Heb. 9. 10. 12. Gal. 4. Finally these things we never intended or extended to any further rights or liberties of the people now then we find evidently taught us by the doctrine and practise of th'Apostles that if in any thing we miss as easily we may in the application of those legal types yet the doctrine confirmed by other playn scriptures remayneth sound and good And such differences between Israel and us we also have put in our more ancient writings Discover pag. 40. 60. Their last note is in effect one with the first shewing how Christ and th'Apostles reasoned wel from the civil state of Israel which we grant Yet I hope they wil not deny but it is possible for other men to reason amyss and to make yll proportions from the common wealth of Israel as doo the Papists and as before is manifested that these our opposites have doon The 7. article 7. We held that the baptism of Rome was as true baptisme as circuÌ„cision in the Apostasie of Israel was true circumcision and needed not to be renounced and repeted Now we were taught that the baptism aforesayd is an Idol and we know al Idols c are to be renounced and rejected Isa. 30.22 and an Idol is nothing in the world 1. Cor. 8.4 so then such baptism is nothing I answer our former profession and writing hath been that circumcision in the Apostasie of Israel could be no true sacrament no true seal of the covenant of Gods favour unto them also that baptism delivered in the false church is no true seal of Gods covenant or true sacrament Mr. Iohnson himself hath defended this very same that in that estate of their Apostasie it could not be a true Sacrament and so for the baptism in Rome not a true but a false sacrament So the contrarietie must be thus heretofore we held it to be a false sacrament but now we were taught it is an Jdol Between these I hope al men of judgment which know what an Jdol meaneth wil think ther is no contradiction But is not this good conveyance for them to say as true baptism as circumcision in the Apostasie of Jsrael was true circumcision wheras we professed of that baptisme as also of that circumcision that it could not be a true sacrament unto them but a false Wil not the judicious reader see that they cast a myst before mens eyes to disgrace the truth which themselves formerly professed As for the consequences I have before answered them and shewed how though the Idol be put away ther need no repeting again of the outward washing and have proved that Antichrist hath turned the Lords baptisme into an Idol as the Iewes did the brazen serpeÌ„t by burning incense to it and that the most conscionable in our own nation have so professed and the Vniversitie of Cambridge printed that the church of Rome transformeth the sacraments yea even Christ and God himself into Jdols But these our opposites are gone from the truth and from themselves herein into the tents of our common adversaries M. Gifford and others who would have concluded hereupon a new outward washing but were refuted by Mr Barrow And Mr Iohnson once professed that he thought he should never have seen any more absurd writing then M. Giffards though now he reasoneth like him He also told the Oxford Doctors that to hold the popish church to be a true church having a true ministerie and true sacraments or els that they are unbaptised and must admitt of the Anabaptists rebaptisation are nought els but gross errours and notorious absurdities Yet loe how he now presseth us with the same things and passeth over our reasons rendred heretofore without answering them as is meet Of the conditions of peace by our Opposites refused and broken HItherto wee have heard the particulars wherin they are gone from their former profession again the articles which they have insinuated against us Now foloweth the peace which notwithstanding the former things wee desired to reteyn with them The first 1. Before our parting we offred that notwithstanding our differences of judgmeÌ„t we would continue togither if our former practise might be reteyned but this was refused Their answer hereto is Which is as if they should say they would have continued with vs if wee would have continued in errour and evil so found and acknowledged by us suffering the ordinance of God touching the Eldership to be troden under foot the Elders to be despised and abused by the people and the whole Church to be continually subiect to contentions and scandals Our reply Here first observe how they can not deny but thus we offred them and yet they would bear the world in hand we left them for their understanding and exposition of Mat. 18 17. They might have kept their vnderstanding both of that and other scriptures if the Churches practise had not been altered Secondly how doo their people yet bear themselves others in hand that their practise is not changed but all things continue with them in that respect as before Eyther their Elders dissemble with them or they with others according to the Philosophers doctrine that in such changes it behooveth men to feighn and counterfeyt the contrary Thirdly the answer is evil injurious to the truth people of God for his ordinance touching the Eldership is not troden vnder foot the Elders despised c. by the holy order of the Church judging synners as the Apostle teacheth and governed in all actions by the officers which was our former practise These are but contumelies such as Papists and lovers of Prelacie have layd upon the saynts heretofore and upon such pretenses have excluded the people from choosing their ministers for avoyding such tumults and uprores as the primitive Church they say was afflicted with Fourthly what if some persons have miscaried themseves as can not be denyed have not some of the Elders also doon the like And shall the Church because of the abuses tyrannies heresies which their Elders have in all ages brought in refuse to have any moe Elders no more may the Elders refuse to have the people to hear and judge causes of publick syn with them because of the disorder and unrulynes of some whom the people have been as willing to reprove and censure as the Elders themselves As for the Church subject continually to contentions and scandals c. it is most true by the Elders means for to let pass what we have seen among our selves let all histories be looked it wil appear the Church hath never more abounded with contentions and scandals then when al power was in the Ministers hands and the people excluded Yea
request our help therin and that the Elders would no way aporove therof but would onely permitt our coÌ„ming eyther of our selves or at their request Wherin they also certifyed vs how some of them had charged the exposition of these words Tell the Church Mat. 18 17. Tell the Elders with some other particulars therupon depending to be errour and so were to prove their charge and therfore earnestly requested us to help in that great busynes that the truth might be mainteyned and not by their weaknes injuried and the innocent condemned and that we would help the Lord against the mighty c. And the reason why they thus earnestly requested our help was because M. Ainsworth was so sparing in opposing of Mr Iohnsons new doctrine though alwayes misliking it as they scarse knew how he was minded in the things so loath was he to come to any professed and publique opposition with him whom he rather hoped to pacify by moderation then by opposition to stop in his intended course Besides he was careful not to give any incouragement to the too violent oppositions of some brethren though minded as they were in the things themselves This their letter and earnest request in it notwithstanding we weÌ„t not but wrote to the Church and shewed them what the substance of the letter was desiring by theÌ„ to be informed how things stood with them and signifying withall our vnwillingnes to interpose but upon a dew and necessary calling and that also as much as might be vnder the conditions of best hope of good yssue They as before denyed to approve of our coÌ„ming and would onely permit it and that vnder the terms of jealousy and advantage as appears by that which themselves have published and did oft and earnestly require of us a coppy of the letter before meÌ„tioned with the names of the persons subscribed unto it Which though we judged and still do an hard and extream impositioÌ„ in it self considering they themselves had permitted them to send unto vs and knew from vs whereabout they wrote and had not layd it vpon them to shew them their letter before they sent it yet had we given way to their desires herein had it not been for one phrase in the end of the letter which being borrowed from Deborahs speach against Sisera Iudg. 5 23. and applyed as it was might give offence and minister occasion of further strife which phrase also we reproved in the wryters of the letter and they acknowledged amiss professing notwithstanding they had no evill meaning in it but onely a desire to provoke vs the more effectually to supply their inability against those with whom they had to deal Now for our withholding the coppy of the letter though since that tyme for their importunity we sent it them as also for our purpose of coÌ„ming unto them and the ends therof we will here insert what we wrote unto them in two severall letters thereabout For the former thus If the letter wherof you desire a coppy might further your coÌ„mon peace or procure good to any wee should easily answer your desire but if on the contrary there were the least evill in it wee should hold it our duties to deal with the parties offending our selves and not to discover their sin And loath would we be eyther to minister matter of further scanning amongst you or that any register of unkindnes should come unto you from our hands And the fear of this was in truth the onely cause why we refused to send this letter as they required Wherin if we fayled as we see no cause so to think yet was it the errour of our love and great desire of their peace About our coÌ„ming we thus wrote Our purpose therfore is according to the request of the brethren which have moved us and our duty to send or come unto you not to oppose any person or to mainteyn any charge of errour but by all other brotherly meanes to help forward your holy peace if so the Lords will be which how precious it is unto us we hope to manifest to the consciences of all men then which we know nothing in this world we haue more cause to endeavour both with God and your selves Of which our comming we pray you to accept and to appoint us some such time as seemes to you most convenient Wherealso we shall satisfy you to the utmost both touching the letter and other particulars in all equity yea so farr as we can without apparant sin These things notwithstanding they would not approve but onely permit of our comming as men use to permit of that which is evill and which in deed they could not hinder And so we came vnto them first of our selves and afterwards at the request of M. Ainsworth and them with him being sent by the Church wherof we are and so inforâ—mâ— our selves vpon them for the delivering of the Churches message did reprove what we judged evill in them and that we confesse with some vehemency And in that regard it was that vpon the motion made by Mr. Iohnson for the free dismission of such members with them unto vs as could not there walk with peace of conscience there lying no other cause against them which should also be mutually performed on our part we signifyed as he wryteth that wee little thought they had been so inclinable to peace that if we had so thought we would have caryed our selves otherweise towards them then we did And good cause had we so to speak For neyther is the same cariage to be vsed towards men prosecuting their purposes and perswasions with all violence and extremity and towards them which manifest Christian moderation in the same neyther had we before or have we since found the like peaceable inclination in them to that which they then manifested Which how great greif it hath been vnto us and how it hath even wounded our very harts he onely knoweth which seeth the sorrowes of the hearts of his servants and putteth their teares in his bottel But to passe by these things and to proceed The motion made by Mr Iohnson for a peaceable dismission was by the Church there received with generall assent unto which the Church also at Leyden condiscended and so sent back the Officers for the further ratification of it and for some other purposes tending to the establishing of peace amongst them Wherupon it was also the second tyme by theÌ„ confirmed alwayes in deed with submissioÌ„ to the word of God as was meet and that if eyther they or we minded otherwise we should so signify Which notwithstanding they did not but reversed the agrement of themselves without acquainting vs with the change of their mind or reasons therof Afterwards indeed they gave us knowledge of their purpose as appears in their former letter by themselves published desiring the continuance of our consideration about it as if the thing which was fully agreed upon as is aforesayd and that oftener then
once had been onely in consideration and in their second letter as also appeareth they gave us certayn Reasons of their dislike Vnto which reasons of theirs we gave no answer as they both write before their parting And the causes were 1. For that they continued not long togither after they came to our hands 2. We had upon occasion of the motion made for a double practise propounded another course both more fit and warrantable as we thought then that for the bringing of things first to the Elders as appears in our letter Vnto which course though we do not bind our brethren yet may we safely say so farr as we remember that there never came complaynt of sin to the Church since we were officers but we took knowledge of it before eyther by mutual consent on both sides or at least by the party accused with whose christian modesty and wisdom we think it wel sorteth that being condemned by two or three brethrē he should not trouble the Church or hazzard a publique rebuke upon himself without counselling with them who ar set over him and who eyther are or should be best able to advise him Thirdly and which was the cheif cause we were without all hope of doing good when they once misliked the motion which made it Whilest they liked it we had hope though it were with hard measure to the other and so did further it to the utmost of our power but when they layd it down we knew all our labour would be lost in endeavoring their second listing of it Lastly where Mr Iohnson affirmeth that at the first treating of the matter we conceived that those by them dismissed should remayn at Leydē with us notwithstanding their want of meanes of living it may wel be as he sayth though we well remember it not And therin all men may see how we were even overcaryed with a vehement desire of peace with them and amongst themselves and how farr wee were from being partiall towards them with whom we agreed in the things in controversie Yea the truth is we were boldest with thē both because we would prevent all jealousy in the other and preserve in them all the interest we could for the common peace and also because we were wel assured of Mr Ainsworths great moderation upō whom the rest did much depend But howsoever we conceived at the first it is certayn that both they and we conceived otherwise in the agreement And therfore when one amongst them made exception that we should not dismisse thē back which came unto us to live a distinct congregation in the same city with them it was presently answered both by Mr Iohnson and Mr Studley that that concerned not them but that they would leave it unto us though that appeared afterwards to be the onely thing for which they broke off their purpose and promise And here the work of Gods providence is to be observed that they who would have no peace with their brethren abyding in the same city with them are about to leave it themselves and to settle their abode els where Which thing that it might well come to passe in short time they were by us put in mind of before hand if God gave them not agayne to reunite which by a peaceable parting might hav been furthered Which how much better had it been they had admitted of all things considered then thorough extreme streytnes in themselves not to medle with the mayn cause thus to have made their brethren their adversaries and themselves yea and us all a by-word to the whole world Iohn Robinson William Brewster This is the record of our brethren of Leyden touching our troubles Wheras our opposites object unto us that we refused to trie if by writing among our selves we could have come to better accord c. I answer first we had by a twelv moneths dispute tried if we could have come to accord but were further off in the end then at the beginning Secondly things were brought to that pass that the practise of their errours was established the truth in publik doctrines inveighed against the opposers of their errours compared to Korah Dathan and Abiram the Lords supper of a long time not administred among us occasions sought against sundry persons to cast them out of the Church peace by us offred by them refused peace by them selves propounded and confirmed and by them agayn broken open warr proclaymed against us as against men that refused disobeyed and spake evil of the way and truth of God c. was this an estate for us to continew in togither and goe to writing which would prove we knew not how many moneths or yeres work For loe to a letter of mine of 3. pages they have given an answer of 70. and if they continue thus to multiplie what volumes shal we have in the end and when shal vve have an end It is rather to be feared that vve suffred things to depend too long for vvhen the Apostles found Christians liberty to be indangered and bondage to be brought upon them though privily they gave not place by subjection for an howr that the truth of the Gospel might continew with them Gal. 2.4.5 Thirdly it vvas a vvay vvhich they alvvayes mislyked and in our former troubles vvhen heretofore M. Smyth and others having debated their causes in conference proffered vvritings then M. Iohnson himself vvith the rest vvithstood and refused that course But novv that vvhich they blamed in others they commend in themselves so partial are they in al things When they like of a thing it must be good vvhen they mislike it must be evil We vvish they vvould shevv more sinceritie And novv as vve desire the Christian reader not to be offended at the truth because of our infirmities who cannot walk in it as we ought nor to stumble for the troubles and dissentions which Satan rayseth among Gods people so wee desire these our opposite brethren to return into the right way from which they are estrayed and putting away al love of preeminence and of their own aberrations to receiv agayn the love of the truth and of brotherly concord that the name of God be no more evil spoken of by the wicked and that the harts which ar wounded by these dissentions may be healed and refreshed The Lord look upon the afflictions of Sion wipe away her tears forgive her iniquities take away her reproch restore her joy and comfort her according to the dayes that she hath seen evil Amen Finis Faults escaped in the printing Pag. 6. line 11. for that read than pag. 46. two lines before the end for uncirsed read uncircumcised pag. 70. line 23. for wholy read holy pag. 112. line 42. for wod read word * 3. Ioh. 9.10 †C. aper venerabilem Extrav qui sunt sil legit “ Hierarc l. 4. c. 3. l. 2. c. 3. * T. Dorm Proof of certayn articles denyed by M. Iewel fol. 7. * Heb. 10.