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A59095 Table-talk, being discourses of John Seldon, Esq or his sense of various matters of weight and high consequence, relating especially to religion and state. Selden, John, 1584-1654. 1696 (1696) Wing S2438; ESTC R3639 74,052 204

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a wise Man that knows the minds and insides of Men which is done by knowing what is habitual to them Proverbs are habitual to a Nation being transmitted from Father to Son Question 1. WHen a doubt is propounded you must learn to distinguish and show wherein a thing holds and wherein it doth not hold Ay or no never answer'd any Question The not distinguishing where things should be distinguish'd and the not confounding where things should be confounded is the cause of all the Mistakes in the World Reason 1. IN giving Reasons Men commonly do with us as the Woman does with her Child when she goes to Market about her Business she tells it she goes to buy it a fine Thing to buy it a Cake or some Plums They give us such Reasons as they think we will be catched withal but never let us know the Truth 2. When the School-Men talk of Recta Ratio in Morals either they understand Reason as it is govern'd by a Command from above or else they say no more than a Woman when she says a thing is so because it is so that is her Reason perswades her 't is so The other Acception has Sense in it As take a Law of the Land I must not depopulate my Reason tells me so Why Because if I do I incurr the detriment 3. The Reason of a Thing is not to be enquired after till you are sure the Thing it self be so We commonly are at What 's the Reason of it before we are sure of the Thing 'T was an excellent Question of my Lady Cotten when Sir Robert Cotten was magnifying of a Shooe which was Moses's or Noah's and wondring at the strange Shape and Fashion of it But Mr. Cotten says she are you sure it is a Shooe Retaliation 1. AN Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth That does not mean that if I put out another Man's Eye therefore I must lose one of my own for what is he the better for that tho' this be commonly received but it means I shall give him what Satisfaction an Eye shall be judged to be worth Reverence 1. T IS sometimes unreasonable to look after Respect and Reverence either from a Man 's own Servant or other Inferiours A great Lord and a Gentleman talking together there came a Boy by leading a Calf with both his Hands says the Lord to the Gentleman You shall see me make the Boy let go his Calf with that he came towards him thinking the Boy would have put off his Hat but the Boy took no Notice of him The Lord seeing that Sirrah says he Do you not know me that you use no Reverence Yes says the Boy if your Lordship will hold my Calf I will put off my Hat Non-Residency 1. THE People thought they had a great Victory over the Clergy when in Henry the Eighth's time they got their Bill passed That a Clergy-Man should have but two Livings before a Man might have Twenty or Thirty 't was but getting a Dispensation from the Pope's Limiter or Gatherer of the Peter-Pence which was as easily got as now you may have a Licence to eat Flesh. 2. As soon as a Minister is made he hath Power to preach all over the World but the Civil-Power restrains him he cannot preach in this Parish or in that there is one already appointed Now if the State allows him Two Livings then he hath Two Places where he may Exercise his Function and so has the more Power to do his Office which he might do every where if he were not restrained Religion 1. KIng James said to the Fly Have I Three Kingdoms and thou must needs fly into my Eye Is there not enough to meddle with upon the Stage or in Love or at the Table but Religion 2. Religion amongst Men appears to me like the Learning they got at School Some Men forget all they learned others spend upon the Stock and some improve it So some Men forget all the Religion that was taught them when they were Young others spend upon that Stock and some improve it 3. Religion is like the Fashion one Man wears his Doublet slash'd another lac'd another plain but every Man has a Doublet So every Man has his Religion We differ about Trimming 4. Men say they are of the same Relion for Quietness sake but if the Matter were well examin'd you would scarce find Three any where of the same Religion in all Points 5. Every Religion is a getting Religion for though I my self get nothing I am subordinate to those that do So you may find a Lawyer in the Temple that gets little for the present but he is fitting himself to be in time one of those great Ones that do get 6. Alteration of Religion is dangerous because we know not where it will stay 't is like a Milstone that lies upon the top of a pair of Stairs 't is hard to remove it but if once it be thrust off the first Stair it never stays till it comes to the bottom 7. Question Whether is the Church or the Scripture Judge of Religion Answ. In truth neither but the State I am troubled with a Boil I call a Company of Chirurgeons about me one prescribes one thing another another I single out something I like and ask you that stand by and are no Chirurgeon what you think of it You like it too you and I are Judges of the Plaster and we bid them prepare it and there 's an end Thus 't is in Religion the Protestants say they will be judged by the Scriptures the Papists say so too but that cannot speak A Judge is no Judge except he can both speak and command Execution but the truth is they never intend to agree No doubt the Pope where he is Supream is to be Judg if he say we in England ought to be subject to him then he must draw his Sword and make it good 8. By the Law was the Manual received into the Church before the Reformation not by the Civil Law that had nothing to do in it nor by the Canon Law for that Manual that was here was not in France nor in Spain but by Custom which is the Common Law of England and Custom is but the Elder Brother to a Parliament and so it will fall out to be nothing that the Papists say Ours is a Parliamentary Religion by reason the Service-Book was Established by Act of Parliament and never any Service-Book was so before That will be nothing that the Pope sent the Manual 't was ours because the State received it The State still makes the Religion and receives into it what will best agree with it Why are the Venetians Roman Catholicks because the State likes the Religion All the World knows they care not Three-pence for the Pope The Council of Trent is not at this day admitted in France 9. Papist Where was your Religion before Luther an Hundred years ago Protestant Where was America an
to be taken off and offer'd any Preferment in the Church that he would make choice of Luther answered if he had offer'd half as much at first he would have accepted it but now he had gone so far he could not come back In Truth he had made himself a greater thing than they could make him the German Princes courted him he was become the Author of a Sect ever after to be call'd Lutherans So have our Preachers done that are against the Bishops they have made themselves greater with the People than they can be made the other way and therefore there is the less Charity probably in bringing them off Charity to Strangers is enjoyn'd in the Text by Strangers is there understood those that are not of our own Kin Strangers to your Blood not those you cannot tell whence they come that is to be charitable to your Neighbours whom you know to be honest poor People Christmass 1. CHristmass succeeds the Saturnalia the same time the same number of Holy-days then the Master waited upon the Servant like the Lord of Misrule 2. Our Meats and our Sports much of them have Relation to Church-works The Coffin of our Christmass-Pies in shape long is in Imitation of the Cratch our chusing Kings and Queens on Twelfth-Night hath reference to the three Kings So likewise our eating of Fritters whipping of Tops roasting of Herrings Jack of Lents c. they were all in Imitation of Church-works Emblems of Martyrdom Our Tansies at Easter have reference to the bitter Herbs tho' at the same time 't was always the Fashion for a Man to have a Gammon of Bacon to shew himself to be no Jew Christians 1. IN the High-Church of Jerusalem the Christians were but another Sect of Jews that did believe the Messias was come To be called was nothing else but to become a Christian to have the Name of a Christian it being their own Language For among the Jews when they made a Doctor of Law 't was said he was called 2. The Turks tell their People of a Heaven where there is sensible Pleasure but of a Hell where they shall suffer they don't know what The Christians quite invert this Order they tell us of a Hell where we shall feel sensible Pain but of a Heaven where we shall enjoy we can't tell what 3. Why did the Heathens object to the Christians that they worship an Asses Head You must know that to a Heathen a Jew and a Christian were all one that they regarded him not so he was not one of them Now that of the Asses Head might proceed from such a Mistake as this by the Jews Law all the Firstlings of Cattle were to be offered to God except a young Ass which was to be redeemed a Heathen being present and seeing young Calves and young Lambs kill'd at their Sacrifices only young Asses redeem'd might very well think they had that silly Beast in some high Estimation and thence might imagine they worshipped it as a God Church 1. HEretofore the Kingdom let the Church alone let them do what they would because they had something else to think of viz. Wars but now in time of Peace we begin to examine all things will have nothing but what we like grow dainty and wanton just as in a Family the Heir uses to go a hunting he never considers how his Meal is drest takes a bit and away but when he stays within then he grows curious he does not like this nor he does not like that he will have his Meat drest his own way or peradventure he will dress it himself 2. It hath ever been the Gain of the Church when the King will let the Church have no Power to cry down the King and cry up the Church But when the Church can make use of the King's Power then to bring all under the King's Prerogative the Catholicks of England go one way and the Court-Clergy another 3. A glorious Church is like a magnificent Feast there is all the Variety that may be but every one chuses out a Dish or two that he likes and lets the rest alone how glorious soever the Church is every one chuses out of it his own Religion by which he governs himself and lets the rest alone 4. The Laws of the Church are most favourable to the Church because they were the Church's own making as the Heralds are the best Gentlemen because they make their own Pedigree 5. There is a Question about that Article concerning the Power of the Church whether these Words of having Power in Controversies of Faith were not stoln in but 't is most certain they were in the Book of Articles that was confirm'd though in some Editions they have been left out But the Article before tells you who the Church is not the Clergy but Coetus sidelium Church of Rome 1. BEfore a Juglar's Tricks are discover'd we admire him and give him Money but afterwards we care not for them so 't was before the Discovery of the Juggling of the Church of Rome 2. Catholicks say we out of our Charity believe they of the Church of Rome may be saved But they do not believe so of us Therefore their Church is better according to our selves First some of them no doubt believe as well of us as we do of them but they must not say so Besides is that an Argument their Church is better than ours because it has less Charity 3. One of the Church of Rome will not come to our Prayers does that agree he doth not like them I would fain see a Catholick leave his Dinner because a Nobleman's Chaplain says Grace nor haply would he leave the Prayers of the Church if going to Church were not made a Mark of Distinction between a Protestant and a Papist Churches 1. THE Way coming into our great Churches was anciently at the West-Door that Men might see the Altar and all the Church before them the other Doors were but Posterns City 1. WHat makes a City Whether a Bishoprick or any of that Nature Answer 'T is according to the first Charter which made them a Corporation If they are incorporated by Name of Civitas they are a City if by the Name of Burgum then they are a Burrough 2. The Lord Mayor of London by their first Charter was to be presented to the King in his Absence to the Lord Chief Justiciary of England afterwards to the Lord Chancellor now to the Barons of the Exchequer but still there was a Reservation that for their Honour they should come once a Year to the King as they do still Clergy 1. THough a Clergy-man have no Faults of his own yet the Faults of the whole Tribe shall be laid upon him so that he shall be sure not to lack 2. The Clergy would have us believe them against our own Reason as the Woman would have had her Husband against his own Eyes What! will you believe your own Eyes before your own sweet
Parliament was wary what Subsidies they gave to the King because they had no account but now they care not how much they give of the Subjects Money because they give it with one hand and receive it with the other and so upon the matter give it themselves In the mean time what a case the Subjects of England are in if the Men they have sent to the Parliament mis-behave themselves they cannot help it because the Parliament is Eternal 2. A Subsidy was counted the fifth part of a Man's Estate and so fifty Subsidies is five and forty times more than a Man is Worth Simony 1. THE Name of Simony was begot in the Canon-Law the first Statute against it was in Queen Elizabeth's time Since the Reformation Simony has been frequent One reason why it was not practised in time of Popery was the Pope's provision no Man was sure to bestow his own Benefice Ship-Money 1. MR. Noy brought in Ship-money first for Maritine Towns but that was like putting in a little Augur that afterwards you may put in a greater He that pulls down the first Brick does the main Work afterwards 't is easie to pull down the Wall 2. They that at first would not pay Ship-money till 't was decided did like brave Men though perhaps they did no good by the Trial but they that stand out since and suffer themselves to be distrained never questioning those that do it do pitifully for so they only pay twice as much as they should Synod Assembly 1. WE have had no national Synod since the Kingdom hath been settled as now it is only Provincial and there will be this inconveniency to call so many Divines together 't will be to put Power in their Hands who are too apt to usurp it as if the Laity were bound by their Determination No let the Laity consult with Divines on all sides hear what they say and make themselves Masters of their Reasons as they do by any other profession when they have a Difference before them For Example Gold-smiths they enquire of them if such a Jewel be of such a Value and such a Stone of such a Value hear them and then being rational Men judge themselves 2. Why should you have a Synod when you have a Convocation already which is a Synod Would you have a superfetation of another Synod The Clergy of England when they cast off the Pope submitted themselves to the Civil Power and so have continued but these challenge to be Jure Divino and so to be above the Civil Power these challenge Power to call before their Presbyteries all Persons for all Sins directly against the Law of God as proved to be Sins by necessary Consequence If you would buy Gloves send for a Glover or two not Glovers-Hall consult with some Divines not send for a Body 3. There must be some Laymen in the Synod to over-look the Clergy lest they spoil the civil Work Just as when the good Woman puts a Cat into the Milk-House to kill a Mouse she sends her Maid to look after the Cat lest the Cat should eat up the Cream 4. In the Ordinance for the Assembly the Lords and Commons go under the Names of learned godly and judicious Divines there is no Difference put betwixt them and the Ministers in the Context 5. 'T is not unusual in the Assembly to revoke their Votes by reason they make so much haste but 't is that will make them scorn'd You never heard of a Council revok'd an Act of its own making they have been wary in that to keep up their Infallibility if they did any thing they took away the whole Council and yet we would be thought Infallible as any Body 'T is not enough to say the House of Commons revoke their Votes for theirs are but Civil Truths which they by agreement create and uncreate as they please But the Truths the Synod deals in are Divine and when they have voted a thing if it be then true 't was true before not true because they voted it nor does it cease to be true because they voted otherwise 6. Subscribing in a Synod or to the Articles of a Synod is no such terrible thing as they make it because If I am of a Synod 't is agreed either tacitely or expresly That which the major part determines the rest are involv'd in and therefore I subscribe though my own private Opinion be otherwise and upon the same Ground I may without scruple subscribe to what those have determin'd whom I sent though my private Opinion be otherwise having respect to that which is the Ground of all assemblies the Major part carries it Thanksgiving 1. AT first we gave Thanks for every Victory as soon as ever 't was obtained but since we have had many now we can stay a good while We are just like a Child give him a Plum he makes his Leg give him a second Plum he makes another Leg At last when his Belly is full he forgets what he ought to do then his Nurse or some body else that stands by him puts him in mind of his Duty Where 's your Leg Tythes 1. TYthes are more paid in kind in England than in all Italy and France In France they have had Impropriations a long time we had none in England till Henry the Eighth 2. To make an Impropriation there was to be the Consent of the Incumbent the Patron and the King then 't was confirm'd by the Pope Without all this the Pope could make no Impropriation 3. Or what if the Pope gave the Tythes to any Man must they therefore be taken away If the Pope gives me a Jewel will you therefore take it away from me 4. Abraham paid Tythes to Melchizedeck what then 'T was very well done of him It does not follow therefore that I must pay Tythes no more than I am bound to imitate any other Action of Abraham's 5. 'T is ridiculous to say the Tythes are God's Part and therefore the Clergy must have them Why so they are if the Laymen has them 'T is as if one of my Lady Kent's Maids should be sweeping this Room and another of them should come and take away the Broom and tell for a Reason why she should part with it 'T is my Lady's Broom As if it were not my Lady's Broom which of them soever had it 6. They consulted in Oxford where they might find the best Argument for their Tythes setting aside the Jus Divinum they were advis'd to my History of Tythes a Book so much cry'd down by them formerly in which I dare boldly say there are more Arguments for them than are extant together any where Upon this one writ me word That my History of Tythes was now become like Pleus's Hasta to wound and to heal I told him in my Answer I thought I could fit him with a better Instance 'T was possible it might undergo the same Fate that Aristotle Avicen and Averroes did in France