first that Augustine speaketh of ancient miracles for he saith tenet me authoritas miraculis inchoata authoritie begunne by miracles doth hold me in Secondly I answer that Augustine doth preferre truth before miracles in the same place he confesseth that veritas est illis omnibus praeponenda truth is to be preferred before all those things Now I returne the argument They which haue true miracles are the true Church But the Protestants haue true miracles Ergo. For the proofe of the assumption we produce the Apostles miracles by which that doctrine which we maintaine was confirmed many hundred yeares agoe If our doctrine be not conteined in the scriptures let it be disprooued by the same But because the Doctour saith out of Augustine that he is bound in the Church by the bond of miracles I would it might please him a little to listen vnto S. Augustine writing thus de Vni eccle cap. 16. Non dicat ideò verum esse quia illa illa mirabilia fecit Donatus vel Pontius c. Let no man say it is true because Donatus or Pontius hath done these or these miracles or because men at the memorie of the dead doe pray and are heard or because these or these things doe happen there or because this our brother or that our sister saw such a vision waking or dreamed such or such a vision sleeping In in the same cap. Augustine speaketh thus quaecunque talia such things whatsoeuer are to be approoued because they are done in the Catholike Church yet it is not made knowne by them Belsee his reports of Luther and Calvin we reiect and touching our Gospel it is not altogether without miracles in these daies your Idols are fallen quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit The world beleeuing whosoeuer seeketh for wonders that he might beleeue is himselfe a wonder Take heede therefore M. Doctour least you make your selfe a miracle that will not beleeue without miracles The 7. reason visions and the gift of prophesie Cytharaedus ridiculus chorda qui semper oberrat eadem This Doctour harpeth alwaies vpon one string he is not contented with Miracles but now he commeth to Visions and confidently affirmeth that visions and the gift of prophesie were neuer found to be but in the true Church yet Aquinas in his 2. 2. 172. quest art 6. teacheth that prophetae daemonum aliquando verum praedicant the deuills prophets sometimes foretell the truth yea he auoucheth that propheta daemonum non semper loquuntur ex revelatione daemonum sed interdum ex inspiratione divina that the deuills prophets did not alwaies speake by reuelation from the deuill but sometime by inspiration from God and this he prooueth by Balaam his example vnto whome the Lord spake as it is in the 22. of Numb The Sybilles as the Doctour himselfe confesseth prophesied for the confirmation of right religion yet were they Ethnicks and liued amongst them Who dare say that the Church were with the heathen because of the Sybilles But I draw this argument into a syllogisme They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the Church But the Papists haue visions and the gift of prophesie Ergo. Aquinas as you haue heard M. Doctour denieth your proposition and whereas you would prooue the same because S. Paul S. Peter and S. Iohn stand vpon Reuelations behold now your double follie First you thus conclude the Church had visions therefore it onely hath visions which is as good as if a man should conclude the Church teacheth the Trinitie ergo no heretikes teach the same Secondly the Church had visions therefore it shall alwaies haue visions who will graunt you this consequence S. Augustine saith 3. booke de bap cap. 10. that miracles were ad ecclesiae primordia dilatanda to enlarge the beginnings of the Church so were visions to last for a time I returne the argument They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the true Church But the Protestants haue visions Ergo they are the true Church The Assumption is prooued by S. Pauls Saint Peters and Saint Iohns visions our doctrine is the same with theirs Saint Iohn heard a voice from heauen saying Blessed are the dead for they rest from their labours so say we therfore there is no purgatorie paines for them after this life The Scriptures teach that the sufferings of Christ are a perfect and full satisfaction for our sinnes so say we and therefore there remaineth not any part of Gods iustice to be satisfied by vs. But let vs see what visions the Papists haue and what a dangerous thing it is to stand vpon visions Bellarmine in his 2. booke of purgatorie and 7. chap. alleadgeth a vision out of Beda to prooue besides hell purgatorie and heauen a fourth place namely pratum florentissimum dilucidissimum as it were a most goodly meadow And in the same booke and 4. chap. he sheweth that Dyonisius the Carthusian and Michael Baius by visions would prooue that the soules in purgatorie were not certen of their saluation which opinion he confuteth Thus you see out of your owne writers what credit is to be giuen to visions by such counterfaiting meanes we may prooue any thing I say therefore with Augustine Removeantur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum vel portenta fallacium spirituum Away with these fained things of lying men or monsters of lying spirits And now M. Doctour to argue vpon your owne graunts both of miracles and visions You say that the heathen had prophesies to confirme right religion graunt you then that you haue some few which works both true miracles and see true visions it is not to confirme your erroneous doctrine but to confirme that truth of doctrine which is held in your Church for all them you are a corrupt Church yet there are some reliques of true doctrine remaining and so by sequele of your owne speech these things may come to passe to confirme that true doctrine which is amōgst you Heretikes haue held some true opinions that there heresies might be the better bolstered out You hold the Trinitie and some other points of religion it may be then that if there be any miracles or visions amongst you it is to confirme the reliques of that truth which remaineth with you Thus I haue argued vpon your owne wordes and graunt But for my part I hold with Chrysostome 49. hom in op◠imper that nunc nulla probatio esse potest vorae ecclesiae there can be now no proofe of the true Church but onely by the Scriptures He giueth a reason of his speach quia saith he qua propria sunt in veritate ca hareses habent in schismate habent ecclesias habent scripturas diuinas habent Episcopos caeterosque ordines clericorum habent baptismum habent Eucharistiam caeteraque omnia because those things which are peculiar to truth heresies haue in their schisme they haue Churches they haue Scriptures they haue Bishoppes
then vpon that Popes authoritie Pope Sixtus saith â—ead M. Iames. before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio the occasion of heresie Now Pope Clements edition is approoued farre differing from Sixtus edition What certaintie then haue Papists who will take the scriptures now vpon this now vpon that Popes warrant But I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which haue no certaine triall of truth are not the Church But the Protestants haue no certaine triall Ergo. I denie the assumption for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures Lib. 2. denupt cap. â—â— and may not we so doe S. Augustine writeth thus Ista controuersia iudicem riquirit this controuersie requireth a iudge who shall be iudge he answereth Christ Iudicet Christus let Christ be iudge He doth name neither Pope nor Romish church For as he saith in another place Scriptura est eminentissima authoritatis 〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3. the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse authoritie Lib. 5. Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebaptized is worthie to be heard Quarendi sunt saith he aliqui huius controuersiae indices si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt quia stuaijs veritas impeditur de foris quarendus est index si l'agaâ—â—â— non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudans inimiens est Christiani baptismatis ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium de coelo quaerendus sed vt quid puâ—samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in Euangelio testamentum inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for if Christians they cannot be had on both sides because by part-taking the truth is hindred we must seek abroad for a iudge if he be a Pagan he knoweth not Christian secrets if a Iewe he is an enemie to Christian baptisme in earth there can be found no iudgement a iudge from heauen must be required But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospel a testament because in this place earthly things may be fitly coÌ„pared to heauenly things I maruell M. Doctor that your vanting vpon all the Fathers light not vpon this Father who is as you call them a plaine Calvinist But I returne your argument They which haue no certaine triall of the truth are not the Church But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth Ergo. The assumption is manifest because they relie vpon Popes that may erre Marellinus sacrificed to idols Liberius was an Arrian And more then this some Iudas might creepe into the office as your Rhemists confesse Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil And M. Doctor in a word what certaintie haue you or can you haue if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes The 22. schisme continued 40. yeares as it is recorded in Fascic Temp. and vntill Martin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope You blaspheme the Scriptures Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want The Censure of Colen saith that it is veluti nasus caereus a nose of waxe O Antichristian Prelates the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible What triall of truth you haue I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience M. Doctor In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes admitting no iudge and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head Out vpon you Antichristian heretikes that euer you should thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme wheÌ„ce did Machiauell spring Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very fouÌ„taine of Atheists I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat Apostolicae resonant voces prodigia probant ratio confirmat mundus testatur elemeÌ„ta loquuÌ„tur Daemones confitentur sed longe maior insania si de Euangelij veritate non dubitas viuere tamen quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie the Apostolicall words doe sound miracles do prooue reason doth confirme the world doeth witnesse the elements doe vtter the deuils confesse but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false The twelfth reason the vse and custome of the Church De faece hauris you drawe of your dregges M. Doctor when you will beate vs downe with the bare club of custome Custome in ciuill affaires may preuaile much but in diuinity it is not worth a rush except it be ioyned with trueth Prudentius answereth Symmachus making this defence Suus cuique mos suus cuique ritus est Euery one hath his manner and rite Quid mihi tu ritus solitos Romane senator obiectas cum scita patrum populique frequenter in tabulis placiti sententia flexa nouarit Nunc etiam quoties solitis decedere prodest praeteritosque habitus cultu damnare recenti Why doest thou obiect vnto me Custome when a diuers opinion hath changed the decrees of Father and people now also how often doeth it auaile to depart from custome and by a newe manner to condemne the olde habits Morosa moris retentio res est aequè turbulenta ac nouitas A wayward retaining of a Custome is as turbulent a thing as noueltie Balsamon vpon Photius saith that aequitate exigente mutamus consuctudinem Tom. 6. when equitie requireth it we change custome And againe Vidi non scriptam consuetudinem fuisse infirmatam I haue seene an vnwritten custome to haue beene infringed But saith the Doctor the vse and custome of the church hath beene alwaies an infallible rule to direct and order things by First the Doctor beggeth that which is a question taking the Romish Church to be the true Church We denie it prooue it before you plead custome Secondly the Church in times past did giue the Eucharist vnto Infants was this an infallible rule M. Doctor to giue the Sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ vnto children if you denie that the Church did so you may be confounded with infinite testimonies of authors Augustine in his first booke de peccato mort cap. 20. is plaine vpon which place Erasmus hath made this marginall note Lib. 1. cap. 2. cont Iulian. Nunc
testifieth Arrias Montanus added to the 14. psalme whole sentences but this corruption was soone espied this was done to prooue the Hebrew text corrupt and to iustifie the latine translation approoued of Papists Who almost but bold Papists durst haue coyned scripture I thinke this is to proceede against conscience Latomus a Papist blasphemed out of a pulpit and was suddainly madde and died in despaire What should I speake of Franciscus Spira and others Hasinmullerus giueth many examples of papists who haue proceeded against their consciences The blessed deaths of Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius Caluin Melancthon Bullinger Cranmer Ridely Bradford Philpot Iuell Pilkington Grindall Dearing and diuers other doe manifest that Protestants proceeded not against their knowledge To returne to Papists out of the forenamed author namely Hasinmullerus euery one may behold the strange endes of these men Stephanus Agricola beeing an Apostata drowned himselfe in the sea One Gaspare Franke confessed that he did and wrote many things against his conscience Turrian wished that he had neuer reade the Augustan confession c. Sadel his workes when I found these things to be true to vse your wordes I thought it better to adventure my selfe with Christians who haue quiet consciences then with desperate Papists who proceed against their consciences The 22. reason Vnreuerent dealing The Papists reuerence vnto God and Christ is such as was that of the Iewes who platted a crown of thornes and put it on Christs head to make him a king euen so the Papists make Christ a Sauiour but they giue not the whole worke of saluation vnto him which indeede is to dishonour Christ But forsooth they pretende to honour his Saints if they doe soe let them not make them Sauiours for this in trueth is to dishonour them The Saints honour consisteth not in false worshippe but in giuing all glorie to God That which Lactantius writeth of Angels is true of Saints Nullum sibi honorem tribui volunt quorum honor in Deo est They wil haue no honour giuen to them whose honour is in God We honour Saints by praising God for their vertues and by imitating them but we make not their merits the treasure of the Church neither doe we call vpon them As for reuerence vnto holy water pictures crosses images I say with Esay who required these things at your hands The Doctor in truth hauing nothing to say against vs raileth spitefully saying that we enter into Churches with no greater reuerence then men enter into Tauerns not contenting himselfe with this vnchristian lie he proceedeth auouching if any kneele it is but vpon thornes for full soone are they vp againe and then with their hats vpon their heads they either iangle or talke or walke as if they waited to see when the plaiers would come forth vpon a stage or else these good fellowes goe to the alehouse where now and then they finde their minister drinking his morning draught before he goe to his seruice to drinke a pot or two of nappie ale that thereby they may the better hold out seruice time Christian Reader to recite these reuiling speeches is to refute them and they which frequent the alehouse with vs are Papists and Atheists if any Protestants do so I wish them to amend whether they be ministers or laiemen Besides he hath many moe rayling words against the reuerend Bishops as that Barons and noble men disdaine their companie surely M. Doctor I blesse God that you haue no sound matter to obiect against the Protestants but such vanities as the world can controll Our Bishops and ministers are as highly esteemed with true Christians as Popish Prelates with their fauorites Vertue and learning maketh a man reuerend which in many Popish Bishopps to be wanting we see with our eies But let vs nowe see howe the Papists reuerence holy things speaking of such they vsually say the holy bread the holy Scriptures the holy Gospell and the holy Angels it is well that you doe not so alwaies why then doe you blame the Protestants who doe say the holy bible and vse this word holy whē it is to be applied vnto things that are so if they do not alwaies so you can not blame them more then your selues seeing this word is not alwaies added by you Marke your reasons M. Doctor and you shall finde them without this title holy The Prophesies of the old Testament Scriptures Fathers if this be such a hainous crime not alwaies to adde this word holy you are guiltie of it your selfe As for the French men I thinke they doe not well to call the Saints after this manner Mounsieor S. Peter Master Saint Peter or my Lord S. Peter for it is no tearme of ciuill or temporall authoritie but a religious and diuine honour in religion God is our onely Lord and Master and we will not giue saluation and redemption but onely vnto him The comparison which the Doctor maketh of a countriman calling her Maiesties Nobles Treasurer Keeper Admirall and so forth is not worth any answer wherefore I leaue it and say with Bernard Maria falso non eget honore honora vitae integritatem Marie needeth no false honour honour her entire life So say I honour the saints by imitating their vertues the honour that I desire to giue to saints is to followe their vertues The 23. reason Resembling in Doctrine and deedes olde Heretickes This Chapter is duely to be considered because we are said to differ little or nothing from olde Heretickes both in doctrine and deedes if you could prooue this then were the Protestants case very hard but it shall be God willing made euident that you resemble olde Heretickes and not Protestants The first heresie is that we hold with Simon Magus what monstrous impudencie is this M. Doctor to charge vs will Simō Magus his opinions he held that men were saued by his grace if they did acknowledge him the Sauiour of the world Doe we teach any such thing we ascribe saluation to no other but onely to Christ If you had that conscience which you pretend you would not thus abuse your selfe The second heresie is we are Nouatians because we renounce the Pope I might crie out vpon these lewd and lowd lies Nouatius as Philastrius writeth 34. chap. taught Non esse fideli post Baptismum locum aliquem paenitentiae After baptisme there was no place of repētance for the faithfull The third heresie is that we denie freewill with the Manichees but the Manichees taught that sinne came not from freewill but from a substance which doctrine we renounce and teach that we haue freewill to sinne Lib. 1. c. 6. But you deale with vs as the Pelagians dealt with the auntient Church For Faustus a Pelagian charged the Church with Manichisme because it taught the will of man to be made sound by meere grace and not of it selfe Thus would you charge vs with Manichisme as proud Pelagians The fourth heresie is that with Arrius
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
parvulis non datur Eucharistia now the Eucharist is not giuen to little ones Innocentius Pope of Rome as the same father testifieth Definiuit parvulos nisi manducaverint carnem filij hominis vitam prorsus habere non posse that Infants cannot haue eternall life except they eate the flesh of the sonne of man I could produce your owne men who acknowledge that the Church did vse to giue the Sacrament to Infants By which I conclude that the Church is not an infallible rule to direct vnto truth The Apostle Paul doth not onely fight with custome but vseth many other arguments and that in indifferent matters as your Rhemists write therefore you abuse the place to establish a custome to confirme matters of moment when the Apostle entreateth of indifferencie Secondly I would you could truly say that you are the Church as Paul did you are departed from the Apostolicall Church But heare what Theophylact writeth vpon tnat place Ad verecundiam Auditores haec dicta compellunt ne quid praeter Apostolorum consuetudinem factitent these sayings driue the auditors to shame that they should not doe any thing besides the Apostles custome Bring vs therefore the Apostles practise and you shall cause vs to yeild to it But that which he cannot obtaine by Paul he would prooue by Augustine who auoucheth that it is strange madnesse to dispute of that which the vniuersall Church practiseth Secondly he prooueth that Infants are borne in sinne because the Church doth baptize them To the first testimony I answer that Aug. speaketh of ceremonies as whether a man must fast before the cōmunion or no such like Secondly I answer that Papists must prooue their ceremonies to be vsed of the whole Church as also that they be the Church The originall of their ceremonie is set down in their writers as in Bucch others To the second argumēt I answer that we haue infallible testimonies out of scripture to proue that infant are borne in sin besides the custom of the church which baptizeth them And now because you haue obiected a place out of the 5. part of the 18. Epistle heare what he the same S. Augustine writeth in the first part I would haue you saith he to know that the Lord hath made vs subiect to a light yoke and that he hath ioyned together the societie of the new people with Sacraments in number the fewest in obseruation the easiest in signification most excellent such as is Baptisme consecrated in the name of the trinitie and the Communication of his bodie and blood and if any other be contained in the Canonicall Scriptures If S. Augustine had knowne your seauen Sacraments he would neuer haue come in with Si quid aliud if any other Immediately after he will haue such ceremonies in the Vniuersall Church as are instituted by the Apostles or by generall Councels are all yours such The ceremonies of particular Churches are variable as Augustine himselfe confesseth In his hundreth and nineteenth epistle and 19. part he would haue these particular burthens cut off complaining that the estate of the Iews is more tollerable beeing subiect to ceremonies of God then of Christians subiect to humane praesumptions If it was thus in Augustines time what is it now To reduce your argument into a syllogisme thus you dispute They which may plead Custome haue the trueth But the Papists may plead custome Ergo They haue the trueth I denie the proposition and saie with Hildebarte that it is Pertinacia ◠Epist consuetudinem praeferre veritati Obstinacie it is to preferre custome before the trueth This he prooueth by many testimonies out of Augustine and Cyprian which for breuitie I wil omit That we haue taken away the sacrifice of the Church it is senslesse vntruth for that sacrifice which Gods word approoueth we imbrace from our hearts But we are charged with great malepertnes for altering the masse placing in stead thereof chapters psalmes ill translated and ballads called Geneua psalmes with railing sermōs If we had placed their golden legende of lies it may be we should haue heard nothing the Psalmes are Dauids psalmes and if there be any imperfections in our translations there are moe in theirs our sermons are not railing except that be railing which disgraceth errour Erasmus complaineth of Papists that Quorumlibet somnia imo mulier cularum deliramenta leguntur inter diuinas Scripturas Euery fooles dreames yea very mad womens doting fancies are read with holy Scriptures Yet we are malepert because we read and sing Dauids Psalmes Their Popes may adde to the masse what they will and we may not alter any thing without sausines Your masse hath beene by little and little increased as Walfridus Strabo euidently sheweth and yet you boldly say it hath continued through all generations The Apostles did consecrate onely adioyning praier to the same Bellar. lib. 4. cap. 13. de Eucharist which he prooueth out of Gregorie But in his second booke de Missa and 19. Read Fulbertus of varietie of orders in his epist to 3. lib. chap. it is wonderfull to see howe he would elude this testimonie and saith plainely that some denie it yet afterwards he recalleth himselfe It sufficeth to haue shewed that their seruice hath not as this Doctour dreameth continued through all generations Can. 12. In the Miletan Councel there is a decree that no praiers be made in the Church but such as are approoued in a Synode Ne fortè aliquid sid compositum contra fidem least there be any thing composed against the faith Ergo there was not one vniforme order in praier the diuersitie of Liturgies as Basil Chrysostome and others doe shewe likewise what varietie hath beene in the Church concerning the seruice thereof Nay the very Church of Rome at this day doeth not compell all to obserue the Canon of the Romane masse as necessarie as I can prooue by their owne writers Micrologus saith cap. 12. that one Scholasticus did compose the Canon of the masse in his 13. chapter he reciteth superfluities in the Canon thereof and findeth faulte with the mention of the birth of Christ in it seeeing we should Anunciare illius mortem shewe his death Now M. Doctor goe and accuse Micrologus of malepertnes To conclude this point of custome what say you M. Doctor to the feast of the conception of the virgin Marie which is celebrated in you◠Church as though shee was not concerned in sin is this infallibly to direct vnto trueth your owne conscience telleth you the contrarie how many testimonies might I produce to prooue her conception in sinne and yet a feast is kept to the contrarie The 13. reason Doctrine The Doctor in this chapter giueth the Papist no small blowe who teach that the sincere preaching of the word of God is no note of the Church Here he will needes haue that Church whose doctrine tendeth to mortification and holinesse of life to be the true Church and contrariwise
doubt not but his lawe is now ouerthrowne Palingenius describeth at large the notorious corruption of the Romane Cleargie Sed tua precipuè non intrent limina quisquam Frater vel Monachus vel quauis leg◠sacerdos Hos fuge pestis enìm nulla hac ìmmanìor hì sunt Fax hemiuum fons stultitiae sentina malorum Agnorum sub pelle lupi mercede colentes Non pietate Deum falsa sub imagine recti Decipiunt stolidos ac relligionis in vmbra Mille actus vetitos ac mille piacula condunt Raptores maechi puerorum corruptores luxuriae atque gulae famuli caelestia vendunt Hos impostores igitur vulpesque dolosas Pelle procul Let no Frier Monke or Priest come within thy dores take heed of them no greater mischeife can be these are the dregges of men the fountaines of folly the sinckes of sinne wolues vnder lamb skinnes seruing god for reward not for deuotion deceiuing the simple with a false shewe of honestie and vnder the shaddowe of religion hiding a thousand vnlawfull actes a thousand hainous offences committers of rapes fornicators abusers of boyes slaues of gluttonie and luxurie they sell heauenly things these impostors and craftie foxes chase farre from thee It grieueth me to rake the dunghill of these loathsome Papists liues yet if these testimonies will not suffice heare Bernard Quià tam notum saeculis Lib. 4. ad Euge. quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum gens insueta paci tumultui assueta What hath beene so famous as the frowardnesse and the haughtinesse of the Romans a nation not acquainted with peace accustomed to tumults I am sparing in his testimonies because I produced one of them before Pope Adrian confessed as I haue shewed that all mischeife came from Rome I let passe the reformation of the Cleargie by Petrus de Alliac◠Picus Mirandula thus writeth Inorat ad Leo. Apud plerosque religionis nostrae primores aut nullus aut certe exiguus Dei cultus nulla bene vinendi ratio atque institutio nullus pudor nulla modestia nulla iustitia Amongest the cheife of our religion there is no seruice of God at all or very small no course of liuing wel no modestie no iustice Read his oration vnto Leo the 10. Christian reader if thou wilt see the monstrous liues of Papists Antonius Cornelius saith to the Cleargie of Colon that non decet tot scorta alere it is an vnseemely thing to nourish so many whores What should I speake of Nicholaus Clemanges his booke written of the corrupt state of the Church It would make a man wonder to see the wofull estate of those times Gildas his complaint of the nobilitie and laitie of England is lamentable Tom. 5. he saith that there was not onely fornication but omnia vitia quae humanae naturae accidere solent All vices which could happen vnto man and concerning the Cleargie he testifieth that it had sacerdotes multos impudentes Many impudent priests wolues readie to deuoure the soules of men The reading of his inuectiues hath not a little affected me for to behold what things he hath written would drawe teares out of a hard heart Master Harding calleth stewes a necessarie euill In 41◠O notorious wickednesse I am loath to shewe howe some Papists haue written that no man is to be deposed for fornication except he continue in it I onely say with Mantuan Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum you that wish to liue godly depart from Rome all things are there suffered saue godlinesse Nowe I reduce your reason into a syllogisme They which haue holinesse of life are the true Church But the Papists haue holinesse of life ergo I answer to the proposition that there may be externall holines in a false religion and so by consequent it is false for the truth of the assumption let the authors before cited determine the same Augustine opposeth to the continencie of th◠Manichees the cōtinencie of Monkes vpon which Erasmus hath this note vtinam mundus nunc haberet tales I would the world had such nowe by which speech he sheweth what popish monkes were concerning the liues of protestants I would that all which are professors were expressers My purpose is not to defend the loosenes of their actions for my part I thinke that these loose liuers are tanquam materia prima as fit to receiue popery as any other religion I say therfore with Augustine Lib. 2. de mo Man cap. 34. Nolite consectari turbas imperitorum qui vel in ipsa religione superstitiosi sunt vel ita libidiuibus dediti vt obliti sunt quicquid promiserunt Doe Seeke not after the rude multitude which are either superstitious in religion or so giuen to lusts that they haue forgotten their promise to God but touching the true professors of the Gospel they shall be found in trial alwaies as honest as papists where you say that loosenes issueth out of the bowells of our doctrine and that our ministers are all naught I doubt not but that God wil reward you accordingly for these your slanderous wordes 2. Cor. 10.18 Paul saith not he which commendeth him selfe is approued but he which God commendeth We care not for your commendations Master Doctor we desire to approoue our selues vnto God it is your Doctrine that admitteth loosenes of life as I haue shewed and now I will make it more plaine The Popes pardons are a most licentious doctrine Iohannes Papa tertius vicesimus plenariam peccatorum remissionem indulsit his qui ad tuendā ecclesiam arma induerant pope Iohn the 23. gaue a full pardon of sinnes to those that tooke armes to defend the Church Who would not commit adulterie and other sinnes if the pope can giue him a pardon of all his sinnes for taking so small paines as to defend the Church Pope Boniface as it is to be seene in his Bull giues plenissima veniam peccatorum a most full pardon of all sinnes surely if the pope for money will giue such pardon he may haue catholikes good store The doctrine of vowes is also a sinfull doctrine as the wolrd can testifie and to what end tendeth the popes forbidding of more degres in marriage then God hath and dispencing with those which God hath forbidden but to maintaine couetousnes cōcerning the bloody tragedies raised in Fraūce although I loue not to meddle with such matters yet knowe Christian reader that those of the reformed religion in taking armes to defend the lawes and liberties of their countrie against priuate persons haue done nothing but in the Kings seruice The bloodie actes of Papists are notorious to the world The rest of the Doctors railing in this chapter is not worthy any aunswer They pray forsooth whilest our ministers play they fast whilest we feast Againe saith he are not some of them hanged for robberies for rapes imprisoned for sorcerie and for
doe teach that by choyce of meats and other humane constitutions remission of sinnes is obtained I doubt not but they which haue thus written could prooue their saying but M. Doctor doe you not make fasting to consist in choice of meates this you can not denie Aquin 2 2.4◠art and yet you teach that fasting doth satisfie for sinnes Ieiunium saith Aquinas assumitur ad satisfaciendum pro peccatis Fasting is taken vp to satisfie for sinnes If men by fasting doe satisfie for sinnes then they obtaine remission of sinnes by it but the first is true ergo Bellarmine hath prooued that fasting satisfieth for sinne and deserueth at Gods hands and I thinke not but that many simple people in popery did thinke by abstaining from meate and by obseruing of humane constitutions they could deserue at Gods handes and satisfie for their sinnes This some can testifie at this day The fifte lye toucheth the Sinalchadicall articles which I haue not seene therefore I cannot say any thing to it but I thinke that they could prooue there assertion if they could not let them answer for themselues yet thus much M. Doctor I say that if the Sacrament giue grace ex opere operat◠of the workes done without any thing in the partie receiuing them so be it he put no hinderance how can it be but that contrition confession and satisfaction must giue grace and so by consequent make a man iust though he had not faith the censure of Colon prooueth that baptisme giueth grace to children by the worke done without any motion of the heart and say they why should it not doe soe in men of yeares If Baptisme doe soe then doth pennance so by consequent giueth grace without faith The sixte lye toucheth not any one Protestant but all wee affirme forsooth that Papists doe worship Saints in stead of Christ and doe honour them as Gods which is a grosse impudent lye as euery man knoweth is this a lye M. Doctor doe you not pray to the virgin Mary thus Maria mater gratiae mater misericordiae tu nos ab hoste protege hora mortis suscipe O Marie the mother of grace the mother of Mercy defend vs from our enemies and receiue vs at the houre of death What is this but to make her God doe you not build Churches i◠Saints which is to make them Gods as I haue prooued yea you pray to this Saint against the plague to that Saint against the tooth ache and so in other diseases is not this meere heathenisme did not the heathen so wee should pray to God against all diseases Furthermore you pray thus vnto Thomas by the blood of Thomas which for thee hee did spend make vs O Christ to clime whither Thomas did ascend Many such blasphemous praiers might I recite and I answer that simple people haue made such Gods I cannot let passe an intollerable prayer of some papists to the Virgin Marie Roga patrem iube natum Intreat the father command the sonne And againe Iure matris impera filio By the right of a mother command thy sonne compel God to be merciful to sinners Thus M. Doctor by consequent you make Saints Gods The seauenth lie concerneth M. Haddon for answer of which I referre thee Christian Reader to M. Foxe a man of famous memorie who hath answered Osorius That the Abbot of S. Albons couenanted for a concubine ad purgandum renes to purge the reines a thing so notorious that common lawyers can shewe it in record Vide Iuellum 559. The Bishop of Arentine hath a Florence euer of the Priest that keepeth a Concubin◠And the reuerend Bishop Iewel alleadgeth out of your Rubricke this sentence Qui non habet vxorem loco illius concubinam habere licet It is lawefull for him that hath not a wise in stead of her to haue a Concubine What should I alleadge the common saying as M. Harding calleth it Si non castè cautè If not chastly yet warily Stewes in Rome are notorious to all the world and one calleth them a necessarie euill If the Pope for money suffereth Stewes why should we not thinke that he will suffer Priests to haue Concubines for money especially seeing that you hold that the Pope may dispense against the Apostle yet he forbiddeth as you say Priests marriage By these things euery man may see what a lie it is to say that the Pope for money giueth Priests leaue to haue concubines and thus haue I ended your lies which as you say the Protestants charge the Catholikes with Marke Christian reader first that some of them are but particular mens sayings and therefore the whole church is not to be charged with them Secondly marke the number in so many writings of Protestants Thirdly marke the answer vnto them and thou shalt finde many of them if not all no lies but trueths Before I set downe lies of Papists I will answer the lies which some Protestants lay vpon the Fathers Melancthon said of Augustine that he taught originall sinne to be taken away in Baptisme not that it was not any more but that it was not imputed Whereas Saint Augustine spoke not there of originall sinne but of Concupiscence M. Doctor are you so ignorant that you know not original sin to be concupiscence Aquinas in his 1. 2. quaest 82. art 3. defendeth this point that originall sinne is concupiscence If originall sinne be concupiscence I hope by right conuersion in Logycke concupiscence is originall sinne If a man be a reasonable creature then a reasonable creature is a man And if concupiscence be taken away then is originall sinne taken away so as it is not imputed Now M. Doctor vpon your owne doctrine marke howe I conclude If concupiscence be remitted in Baptisme so as it is not imputed then it was sinne before it was remitted but it remaineth the same in the regenerate according to the substance of the thing ergo it is sinne in the regenerate This argument is plaine by Aquinas who in 1. 2. quaest 99. art 5. teacheth that the first motions of sensualitie are not deadly sinnes in infidels because the person doeth aggrauate the sinne if the person doeth make the sinne greater then is concupiscence sinne in the godly because it was so in the vngodly Neither can you answer that that saying is vnderstood of voluntarie sinnes for the first motions are not so by your owne doctrine The second lie is some Protestants say S. Bernard recanted Monachisme at his latter ende and why should not some thinke so seeing he writeth thus Fateor non sum dignus nec proprijs possum meritis regnum obtinere caelorum caeterùm Dominus meus duplici iure illud possidens haereditate patris merito passionis altero ipse contentus alterum mihi donat I confesse I am not worthy neither can I obtaine the kingdome of heauen by mine owne merits by my Lord possessing it by a double right by his fathers inheritance
temple and a church as I haue prooued Thirdly he saith that by meanes of Images pictures crosses the most vnlearned amongst the people knowe more of the misteries of christian religion then some of our ministers know If this be so it is a horrible shame for ministers for this I know that some vnlerned people haue worshipped Images as gods but indeed what is this but to contemne gods wisome and ordinance who hath not ordained Images to teach the people but his word to instruct them Take heed M. Doctor of this horrible sinne to make your selues wiser then God Fourthly the Doctor saith that we haue noe more warrant for solemnizing of the sonday then we haue for S. Lawrence his day for other reason or warrant we haue none but the authoritie of the Roman church fye fye M. Doctor that you should thus bewray your ignorance Bellarmine in his third booke de cul Sanct. and 11. chap. prooueth the obseruation of the Lordes day by the scriptures if you can prooue the obseruation of S. Lawrance his day by the same warrant you may doe well to shewe vs some of your arguments Other things of lesse moment I let passe because I labour for breuitie The 21. reason The Protestants beginning and proceeding against their consciences This chapter hath many wordes to little purpose first Luther is charged to say that he could see into another mans heart or cōscience who will beleeue Luther should speake thus except he meant he could doe it by plaine words and manifest deeds this M. Doctor you confesse your selfe may be done I hope if Luther saie that he could see into another mans conscience he had no other meaning but by plaine words and manifest deeds Luther was not so sottish as you would beare men in hand to make himselfe a God But M. Doctor if your reason be good to prooue that some Protestants speake and write against their consciences because they suspect others to doe so for commonly a man thinketh others to be as himselfe is then you speake and write against your conscience because you are suspitious yea vpon ridiculous reasons and vntruths you charge men to write against their consciences This is your own reason and argument and therefore cannot be denied For proofe that you charge men to write against their cōsciences onely vpon ridiculous reasons let the reader iudge I will set down your arguments Luther confessed that he began against his conscience ergo he proceeded so M. Doctor to admit your antecedent who wil graunt your consequent for here you say that he proceeded so farre as he thought that by desperate necessitie he must go on and so compare him to Iulius Caesar The truth is he ended his life most heauenly as M. Doctor Whitakers sheweth out of Melancthon and Sleidon We will not credit your slaunderous writings of him but the writings of the forenamed men From Luther the Doctor commeth to Zwinglius who is said to haue denied secretly the reall presence for many yeres before he brake off frō the Roman Church but yet inwardly he dissembled his mind What then if Zwinglius did thus did he therefore proceed against his conscience because he remained sometime in the Romane church after he had seene the trueth of the Sacrament What honest man would shape such conclusions If this be to proceede against conscience Papists in England proceede against their consciences for they continue in our Church though they secretly dissemble their opinions many examples hereof might be giuen Touching Nemo the Anabaptiste what haue we to doe with him The Protestants haue most soundly confuted the sect of Anabaptists when Papists haue taken their ease And Christian Reader I desire thee to behould howe the Doctor dealeth whether against his owne conscience or no I leaue to God in charging vs with Anabaptists speeches whereas we renounce such lewd sectaries as he himselfe can testifie Thomas Bell is as I thinke aliue and therefore can answer for himselfe Wherefore I leaue him who hath learnedly written against Poperie and come to Melancthon who is charged to proceede against his conscience because he was sad and gaue himselfe to weeping O M. Doctor howe doe you forget your selfe is euery one a sinner against his conscience that weepeth and sorroweth and that cannot by and by be comforted Dauid was many times heauie and his soule had not alwaies comfort yet was Dauid a man after Gods owne heart Concerning Carolastadius I will not say any thing neither doe I regard what any Lutherane hath written of Zuinglius and Oecolampadius As for Bucer it is a lewde slaunder that he had no religion at all God wil be reuenged of you M. Doctor for blaspheming his seruants after this manner Bishop Iuell is charged to shewe himselfe without God and conscience he doth rent in peeces the text of Doctors and inuerteth the sense of the same If this reuerend Bishoppe had done thus his enemies would haue found it no doubt M. Doctor you would haue noted some places but seeing you haue noted no such corruptions we account it a detestable lie No no your owne men change the words of Fathers I will referre you to places Bellarm. lib. 1. de grat lib. arbit cap. 11. doeth shamefully corrupt Augustine as I haue shewed in another worke and in his 4. booke de amiss gra and 9. chap. he rendeth in peeces Hieroms saying Againe in his 3. booke de cult Sanct. cap. 9. he doeth horribly cite Eusebius So doeth he also in his 1. booke de Sanct. beat cap. 13. Thus he dealeth not onely with Fathers but with Caluin in his preface de libero arbit and his first booke de Sanct. beat cap. 1. 2. de iustif cap. 8. Read these places your selfe M. Doctor and compare them with the authors and see who corrupt fathers Many other testimonies I could produce but I desire not to be tedious If you could alleadge so many corruptions out of reuerend Iuell I thinke we should haue seene them Thus I pray you consider your owne argument They which corrupt Fathers sinne against their conscience But the Papists corrupt Fathers ergo Pag. 10. The assumption is prooued by the testimonies alleadged and to giue you one or two more Duraeus citing Augustine leaueth out these words Opera sequuntur iustificatum non praecedunt iustificandum Workes followe him that is iustified they goe not before iustification The Rhemists vpon the 19. of Mathew peruert Augustine his words cleane contrarie to his meaning affirming no man to be excluded from the gift of continencie whereas Augustine his meaning is that both the will to be chaste and the power to fulfill that will is the gift of God Nowe I might followe your example of bitternes seeing I haue giuen you so many corruptiōs but I leaue this course and desire you to remember your own argument I come to Papists who seeme to haue proceeded against their owne consciences One Papist in England as
the signe of the crosse as Gregorie Nazianzen writeth orat in Iulian. Theodo lib. 3. cap. 3. hist and so heretikes may doe miracles among the heathen If miracles may be done by heretikes they are then not alwaies done by those which are of the true religion except heretikes be of the true religion Thus your owne men M. Doctour driue you to the wall Socrates in his 7. booke and 17. chap. reporteth a miracle done by Paulus a Novatian Bishop Iudaeus quidam veteratus Christianam fidem simulans saepius baptizatus fuit per quam fallaciam multas pecunias corrasit a certaine Iewe beeing an olde deceiuer and counterfeiting Christian religion was diuers times baptized by which deceit he gathered much money in the ende when he should be baptized by Paulus Vniuersa aqua divina quadam virtute quae oculis cerni non poterat subitò exhausta est all the water by Gods power which could not be seene suddenly vanished away Here you see a Novatian bishop did a miracle And so men if they should credit miracles without true doctrine might be drawne to heresie Thomas your Angelicall doctour in his first part and 114. quest art 4. teacheth that daemones possunt vera miracula facere ad seducendum the deuills may doe true miracles to seduce and he prooueth it out of Augustine who writeth that Magicis artibus sunt plerunque miracula similia illis miraculis quae sunt per dei servos miracles are done by Magicke euen such as Gods seruants doe In the same place he answereth the vulgar argument which is this then they are not effectuall to confirme faith Read his answer your selfe M. Doctour at your owne leisure Where you say miracles are done onely by the power of God if you speake exactly of miracles I ioyne with you for as the same Aquinas teacheth in his 110. quest that is properly a miracle which is done praetor ordinem totius naturae creatae aboue all power that is created When God worketh such miracles by false prophets and heretikes he doth it to trie men as Moses speaketh in the 13. of Deut. If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreames and giue thee a signe or a wonder and the signe come to passe thou shalt not hearken vnto the words of the prophet for the Lord your God prooueth you to know whether you loue the Lord your God with all your heart or no. Out of this place it is plaine that God will trie his seruants sometimes by wonders and therfore they are not alwaies done to confirme true religion In the Questions that goe vnder Iustins name the author thus propoundeth the question 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if heretikes worke wonders as curing of diseases casting out of deuills how commeth it to passe that they should not be confirmed in their errours he answereth as God causeth the sunne to shine vpon the good and bad not to confirme them in their wickednes but to make a way to his righteous iudgements so he doth in heretikes that worke wonders Hence I gather that the Lord doth prepare a way for his will when false prophets worke any wonders But I reduce his reason into a syllogisme That religion which hath miracles is the true religion But the Romane religion hath miracles Ergo. I denie the proposition for I haue prooued it false by sundrie testimonies I will now annexe Tertullian his speech who writeth thus Adijcient praetereà multa de authoritate cuiusque haeretici illos maximè doctrinae suae fidem confirmasse mortuos suscitasse De prae debiles reformasse futura significasse quasi nec hoc scriptum sit venturos multos qui virtutes maximas aederent ad fallaciam muniendam corruptae praedicationis Furthermore they will alleadge for the authoritie of Heretikes that they haue especially confirmed their doctrine by raising of the dead by restoring the weake by foretelling future things as if it were not written that many should come working wonders to confirme their corrupt preaching In Gratian I finde this sentence 2. part causa 1. Non melius debet credi propter miracula nam communia sunt bonis malis men are not the better to be credited for miracles because they are common to good and bad many of the auncient miracles we acknowledge This Doctor numbreth some in Tertullians time and in others but let him shew the Romane faith to be wholly the same as then it was Miracles might then be needefull to conuert Pagans and Iewes amongst whome Christians were dispersed but the popish miracles are fained things Lib. 5. as testifieth Pabrugenius Heu quas non nugas quae non miracula fingunt vt vulgus fallant optataque praemia carpant what miracles doe they not faine for reward Lyra writeth thus vpon the 14. of Dan. Aliquando fit in Ecclesia maxima deceptio populi in miraculis fictis à sacerdotibus vel eis adhaerentibus propter lucrum temporale talia sunt extirpanda à bonis praelatis sicut ista miracula extirpata sunt à Daniele Sometime euen in the Church the people is shamefully deceiued with fained miracles wrought either by their priests or by their companions for lucres sake and good Prelates are to abandon such as Daniel did These testimonies may suffice any man not beeing vttered by a Calvinist as they cal them but by some of their owne coate Iuel ex Cop. What should I speake of making barren weomen beare by holy water and driuing mise out of the countrey by the same Eras pere ergo The milke of the Virgin Marie and the blood of harts are not yet forgotten the transportation of the virgin Maries house Gomarus 16 p. is monstrous to remember The author reporteth that venienti domicilio arbores obvias velut venerabundas inclinasse trees did meete it and bowing downe did worship it Gregorius Turonensis reporteth Lib. 9. cap. 6. that one in stead of Saints reliques had sacculum magnum plenum de radicibus diuersarum herbarum dentes talpae ossa muruum vngues vrsinos a great sacke full of rootes of diuers hearbs and there were also teeth of moules and the bones of mise and beares clawes But I take no pleasure in heaping together this trash and therefore I come to Augustines authorities alleadged by this Doctor The first is not in the 17. cap. but in the 16. de vtil creden where he saith that miracula nos movent miracles mooue vs but he speaketh of Christ miracles as it is manifest towards the ende of the chap. homines illius temporis aquam in vinum conuersam viderunt the men of these times did see water turned into wine In the second place he saith that ista vincula rectè hominem credentem tenent in ecclesia catholica Con. epist fâ—n cap. 5. these bands doe by right hold a beleeuer in the Church speaking of miracles and other things I answer
Gregorius Dyonisius saith Picus Mirandula discordant circa ordines angelorum Gregorie and Dyonisius disagree about the order of angels If Gregorie dissenteth from him why may not Luther doe so Who so desireth to read more of this Dyonisius may be referred to Erasmus and Valla. That the Protestants raile at the fathers it must be numbred amongst the Doctours vntruths but by Protestants this man meaneth the Puritans forsooth although this odious name of Puritanes agreeth better to Papists August haeres 38. who doe so stand vpon their puritie because they can keepe all Gods commandements Yet know not I any so called that raile at all the fathers But here it is to be noted euen by his owne confession that the Protestant defend the fathers against the Puritanes therefore they raile not at them Thus M. Doctour you hardly know what you write you are so egerly carried against the Protestants somewhat ye would say but yet know not well how to vtter your minde We acknowledge the fathers to haue had excellent wits to haue studied and praied continually yet doe we not deifie them neither doe we account their writings canonicall scripture as Augustine speaketh of Cyprian lib. 2. cont Cres cap. 32. Where you call the Protestants foolish vnstudied vnlearned prophane and arrogant fellowes you bewray your vaine spirit Vascula inania maximè tinniunt the emptiest vessells make the greatest sound Of your learning we shall speake more hereafter in the meane time I would haue you to know that constat plures Papaâ— adeò illiteratos fuisse vt Grammaticam penitus ignorarent Alphon. l. 1. c. 4. it is certenly knowne that sundrie Popes haue bin so vnlearned that they neuer vnderstood their Grammar You say further that Protestants are giuen to lust ambition gluttonie and couetousnes If for Protestants you had named Papists it had bin a true saying For as your owne man Coster confesseth Plarique Catholici feris ac bellumis moribus blasphemiae causam prabent infidelibus many Catholikes or Papists beeing of sauage and beastly manners and behauiour doe cause Infidels to blaspheme But more also of this in another place If the Centuriators and Calvine haue noted some errours in some of the fathers it is no more then Papists haue done The Rhemists renounceth Augustines exposition vpon the 16. of Matthew Bellarmine in his first booke de sancto beat and 6. chap. saith that Iustinus Epiphanius Ireneus and Oecumenius cannot be defended Againe Ambrose Hilarie and Nissen are reiected of him cap. 4. lib. 2. de rel To proceede he holdeth that Adam was not deceiued Lib. 3. de Amiss grat cap. 7. yet communis patrum sententia id videtur habere vt Adam fuerit seductus the fathers common opinion seemeth to be that Adam was seduced Hierome agreeth not with the fathers concerning the buriall of Adam Bell. lib. 3. de amiss grat cap. 12. Theodoret expoundeth some places of scripture as the Pelagians-doe Bellar. lib. 4. de amiss grat cap. 9. The fathers before Pelaguis did not accurately handle the doctrine of predestination Bellar. lib. 2. de grat lib. arb c. 11. Lastly not to be too tedious cap. 14. eiusdem lib. he saith that patres cum ad populum verba facerent ea dicebant quae vtiliora videbantur ad excitandos homines ad bona opera The fathers when they did speake to the people vttered those things which were most profitable to stirre vp the people to good workes For thy further satisfaction Christian Reader I desire thee but to read Bellarmines exposition of the Lords praier and tell me how the fathers doe agree euen in expounding that one praier Their diuersitie also in expounding this article He sitteth on the right hand of God is worthie to be considered Bellar. lib. 3. de Incar cap. 15. M. Doctour Humfrie his spech of that famous and reuerend Bishop Iewell beeing iniurious to himselfe is vttered in respect of his great paines and not to detract from the truth of his challenge if you can confute his booke set vpon it if you cannot neuer hereafter bragge of the fathers For indeede it is no small meanes to confirme the Protestants in their cause that his bookes haue not beene answered in so long a time you crie the fathers the fathers are on your sides and yet haue not satisfied M. Iewel his challenge in many yeares I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which condemne the fathers of errors hold a false religion But the Protestants condemne the fathers of errors Ergo. To this argument let Augustine answer Si divinarum scripturarum earum scilicet quae in Ecclesiae canonicae nominantur perspicua aliquid firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est â—pist 112. alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat if any thing be confirmed by euident authoritie of those Scriptures which are called Canonicall in the Church we must beleeue it without any doubting but other witnesses or testimonies by which some thing to be beleeued is perswaded thou maist beleeue or not beleeue I might abound with his testimonies I will adioyne one other Neque quorumlibet disputationes quamvis catholicorum laudatorum hominum velut scripturas habere debemus epist 1â—1 vt nobis non liceat salva honorificentia quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in corum scriptis improbare aut respondere We ought not to account any mens disputations although catholike and laudable men as the scriptures as if it were not lawfull for vs the honour which is due vnto them reserued to disalow and reiect something in their writings Picus Mirandula in his Apologie prooueth that in dictis sanctorum extra canonem bibliae non est infallibilis veritas in the sayings of Saints without the canon of the bible there is not infallible truth The Papists themselues refuse the fathers Pucichius saith Mihi non placet Augustini ea de re definitio Iâ—â—l 548. I like not S. Augustines determination of that point namely originall sinne Epiphanius is reiected for breaking images by D. Harding Cyprian is condemned by Duraeus because he teacheth that onely Christ is to be heard But that we may see all the fathers to be on your side M. Doctour produce I pray if you can their testimonies to prooue that the Pope cannot erre that he may depose Princes that he must summon Councells and that he is aboue the same or that the virgin Marie was not conceiued in original sinne I haue desired to see these points prooued by all the fathers if you can doe it you shall doe more then your owne men haue done By these new opinions we may gather that Poperie did beginne by degrees and hath encreased to this height These doctrines although they concerne the head of your church are so weakely prooued by the fathers that a man would imagine you doe not hold these