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A14357 M. le Hucher minister of Amyens in France compelled to fly from the pure word of holy write; strucke dumme; and made to runne away Vppon the subiect of the B. Sacrament of the altar. By F. Francis Veron of the Society of Iesus, encountring him with the Bible of Geneua only. In the presence of the Duke de Longueuille. VVith a briefe and easie meanes, by which each Catholike may, in like manner, put to flight any minister or sectarie. Sent from Sieur de la Tour one of the sayd Dukes gentlemen, to Sieur de Rotois, gentleman of the Kings game.; Adrian Hucher ministre d'Amyens, mis à l'inquisition des passages de la Bible de Genève. English Véron, François, 1575-1649.; Catcher, Edward, 1584?-1624? 1616 (1616) STC 24675.5; ESTC S107356 29,473 96

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night for respite and to thinke vppon it but the Father denied him he alleaged he was suddainly surprised the other replied that he had had all the night and morning before for his proofe of that consequence It was not neede to take pitty of the Minister for his fellow Sectaries had sufficient cōmiseration of him all of them round about me beganne to change coulour the Elders and Superintendents stood as it were astonished cōfounded You may coniecture easily whether we were ioyfull thereat or no Alas said one the poore Minister wants a Chirurgian to open him a vayne This victory was more notorious by this which followeth The conquerour exacted of the vanquisshed to subscribe to the Acts of this conference according to the accord made between them A lamentable case that the ouercome must subscribe to the actes of his owne condemnation He refused to performe his promisse The Father after many instant vrgings of him in vaine turned towards my Lord and demaunded iustice that the Minister signe according as he had promised The Minister desired fauour beseeching him often that he would not cōmaund him to subscribe after many prayers adding these wordes I know how much it stands me vppon not to signe for if I do so all will be published and the Churches you vnderstand his meaning at least his lamenting voice discouered his intention the poore congregations he should say of the pure reformation will be scandalized therat The Father hauing before desired one of ours to shutt the doore least the Minister should runne away bid him consult with his Elders and Superintendents whether it were expedient to signe the actes or no for which cause drawing them apart it was resolued that he should not signe them I will send you shortly more at large this debate which lasted three quarters of an howre In fine with the consent of the Father they graunted him this fauour that he should not subscribe but with these two conditions the first that he should subscribe the morrow after the second that he should continew the dispute By this refusall to subscribe vnto the Actes it is apparent how notable the victorie was on our parte In the third encounter our Champion gott a third victory but in an other kind will you knowe what The Minister shamefully rann away He was not willing to be laid againe a gasping as before and therfore thought it better not to inter into the listes as I will declare afterward It was giuen out that the Superintendentes had expreslie forbidd him to venture himselfe with him who before had vsed him so vnmercifully for they well saw the confusion like to follow therof to the great detriment of their Churches Your Religious minde makes me presume you take great delight in this chace I will therfore giue you the whole narration But yett before hand I wil shew you a new māner of hunting which though you be most skilfull in that sport is perchance vnknowne vnto you The fashion is speedy with little paines and most effectuall by which practise our Huntsman hath so happily seazed on his pray and by the same I assure my self that euen we whose profession is to be better at our weapon then our penne may chace out of breath any Minister soeuer and make any Sectarie see how grosllie he is abused This I haue compiled as a thing I knowe to be true and wherof I meane to serue my self on all occasions In this Conference I haue had experience of this practise for therein was held no other methode to satisfy your desire who I knowe are curious to learne this new manner of hunting you may read this which followeth the like wherof was sent vnto the Minister as a letter of defiance Read it seriously To me it seemes most efficacious and as easy Wee shall all prooue hunters of these black beastes the Ministers I meane of the pretended Religion I would to God we could so chace away not their persons but their errours that we could purge all France thereof This I now send you laid downe at large you shall shortly haue the particulars of the conference aboue mentioned in which you will see it practised A BREEFE AND EASIE meanes by vvhich each one though ignorant of deuinity may by the sole Bible either of Geneua or any other shevv apperently to any Minister hovv farre he is deceaued and to each Caluinist hovv in all and euery point of the pretended reformation he is abused ENCOVNTRING a Minister or anie other Caluinist you shall proceed in this manner You haue in the 31. article of the Cōfession of your faith these words In our dayes in which the estate of the Church was dissolued God hath raised men after an extraordinary manner to repaire of new the Church which was ruinated and desolate Thus you say your Religion comes to reforme our errours In the 5. article are these words The word which is contayned in these bookes he spake of the bookes of Holy Scripture is the rule of all truth containing all that is necessary for the seruice of God and our saluation Neither is it lawfull for men no nor for Angells to adde diminish or change VVhence it followeth that neither Antiquitie nor Customes nor Multitude nor humane wisdome nor Definitions nor Inhibitions nor Proclamations nor Decrees nor Councels nor Reuelations nor Miracles may be opposed to the said holy Scriptures but on the contrarie all thinges ar to be examined ruled and reformed by them These are the wordes of this article So that in the one and the other article mētioned togeather you say that you or your Religion or your Ministers take your choise are raised and sent from God to illuminate vs with the light of truth to shew vs our errours and that by the sole and pure word of God contained in the holy Scripture 1. First I might examine the conditions of these Reformers you thrust vpon vs. And vntill you shew me your letter patents and commission I may iustly refuse to submitt my self to be reformed by you What body politicque will allow the title of Reformour of their Lawes and Customes according to which they haue hitherto proceeded in their gouernment in one who should say he was sent from the King for that purpose but had no Commission to shew for the same Notwithstanding in curtesy I do freely admitt you to the dignity and title of a Reformer am content to be instructed by you in the truth and to be reformed in whatsoeuer I do erre I would know of you 2. According to what rules by what line doth it please you to straighten me to shew my errours and illuminate me with the truth of the Gospell You make me answeare in the 5. article aboue cited that you will do all this according to the pure word of God sett downe in Holie writt laying aside All Antiquity Customes Multitude humane VVisdome Definitions Inhibitions Proclamations Lawes Councels Reuelations Miracles I could
it belongs to Aristotle to iudge if the consequence be good or no the Minister building vpon consequence must admitt for his iudge in the controuersies of our fayth not the pure Scripture but Aristotle or els at least choose for vmpyre in this cause the word of God together with Aristotle 3. You must demaund of the Minister if the Scripture do teach that one must beleeue as an article of faith not only that which the Scripture saith but also that which by necessary consequence followeth therevpon or no if he say so make him shew the text which without doubt he cannot throughout the whole bible if no such be founde then doth the Minister build his articles of fayth vpon a proposition which is not in the pure word to witt vpon this That that which followeth out of Scripture by necessary consequence must be beleeued as an article of saith Howbeit the Scripture frames no such article but the Minister only and that not by the pure Scripture but by humane reason from which notwithstanding in his 5. Article he disclaimed wholy For he wold haue vs take at his handes for an article of faith that proposition which by consequence followeth out of the Scripture though the termes of that proposition deduced out of Scripture for an article of fayth be not there sett downe Hence is it that all the articles of the Confession of these sectaries which are founded vpon a consequence are not articles of fayth being that they haue not for them theyr only rule of truth the sole Scripture Heere againe you must hold him They will say perauenture that IESVS Christ and the Apostles proued many thinges by consequence I graunt it But in so doing they themselues made new Scriptures or holy write which priuiledge I thinke the Minister haue not But they neuer taught that the Scripture which they alledged was the singular and sole rule of all truth and that they spake not but by the mouth of the Scripture as these Pretenders professe and thyr poore flocke which thinke they are as good as theyr wordes persuade themselues 3. If he that buckle with the Minister be learned and will after he hath often driuen the deere from his fortresse of the pure worde course him alonge the plaine champion of humane and philosophicall reasons though according to my aduise it be ordinarily more expedient to content our selues with that before sett downe for to cure him if it be possible after the aboue said he may passe to the examen of the truth or falshod of his consequence whether the propositions from which it is deduced be they taken from philosophy or holy writt be true or false and whether the forme of the argument be according to the rules of Philosophy and so deny that which the Minister assumed falsly Still hauing in minde that the Minister is putt to the proofe not the Catholick who beares the personne of the party instructed be sure not to change that personne For the drift of all the Ministers fetches is to vnload himself of that obligation to prooue his consequence which he will bring to passe by this sleight if he can make him that defends the disputant For example In the argument proposed That body which is in heauen is not on the earth The body of Iesus Christ is in heauen Therfore it is not on the earth You shall deny the first proposition and lett the Minister prooue it If that his proofes come on to long he enter to farre into Philosophicall quiddities lett the Catholicke note that it is in his free choice to curbe the Minister short when he listeth demaunding him if all the propositions which he hath brought to prooue his consequence be in the Scripture or no. If they be lett him bring them forth Many of them questionles are drawne out of Philosophy or grounded vpon humane reasons If they be not the Minister which out of them inferres his consequence doth not deduce it out of the pure word or which is all one prooues not by consequence deduced out of the pure and only word that the Catholicke erreth which was that he vndertooke and moreouer denieth his Cōfession of faith for he drawes his cōsequence ioyntly out of the word of God and out of diuers propositions which are not in holie write Is not this to flinch from their worde and to renounce their articles of faith or rather do not the Minister his confession of faith abuse people in promising that which they neither do nor canne performe Behold a breefe and easy methode to encounter all Ministers and Sectaries Is it not obuious euen for those who are not students in deuinity to putt it in practise There needs no more but eyes to see and to vnderstande English to know if the pure word without additions interpretations or consequences of others do say such a thing or no. Do you not by this meanes euidently perceaue that all the Ministers are abusers and how the whole troope of Sectaries is misledde Yea I dare say double abusers For first the Minister abuseth men in that he promiseth by the pure word to shew them that which he would haue them beleeue next that he will by the pure word lay open their errours pretended and yett performeth neither the one nor the other Wherfore the Ministers promising in their 31. and 5. articles to performe them both and yet effecting neither as by the forsaid practise is made euident are impostours and double impostours as this methode which euery Catholick may vse doth apparently declare And so I haue fulfilled my promise which was to lay downe a short and easie methode by which all Catholiques may euidently shew that each Minister in all and euery point of his pretended religion is an abuser consequently that all their followers are abused This therfore is my aduice to all Sectaries to those especially which seeke sincerly theyr Saluation Your Confession promiseth you the pure word of God and you suppose that according to that promise there is nothing in your articles of fayth which is not in the pure word Practise this methode and you shall euidently and easily perceaue how you are abused Place on the one syde the Principall articles of your faith which I haue cited before That original sinne remaines after Baptisme as it is a fault That Iesus Christ is our only Aduocate That faith alone iustifieth and which is cheefe of all That the B. Sacrament is a figure of the body of our Sauiour which is eaten by faith Then ouer against each of these articles set downe the textes which are cited in the margent for eache of them doubtles if you had any plaine text of Scripture which taught that which is in that articles it wold haue been coated in the margent you shall cleerly see that the pure word setting aside interpretations and Ministeriall consequences hath not that which is in your article neither is there required ought
refuse this fashion of reforming For why should I not togeather with the Scripture help my self with all other rules to discerne the truth thereby Especially since that the Scripture no where saith that it self alone is the rule of all verity It seemes hard to me to renoūce al Antiquity Coūcels Miracles all the rest before sett downe Neuertheles to ioyne with you in Conference I am content of my owne accord to graunt you the title of Reformer by the pure written word am ready to renounce al those rules specified prouided allwaies that you keepe your promise to witt that you shew me my errours by the pure Scripture 3. There are diuers translations of the Scriptures by which I pray you will you please to reforme me Perchance you intēd by that of Geneua I might iustly refuse to be reformed by that Bible being it is so curtalled in diuers places corrupted and changed Yet to haue your reformation I wil do you this third fauour I am content to open my eyes and follow your Religion if you shew my by the pure word contained in the Geneua version both the truth of the faith you Euangelize allso my errours I haue donne you three great fauours 1. to graunt you the title of a Reformer 2. to be a Reformer by the pure word The third to make this triall by the pure word of the Geneua version But looke you bring me nothing els but the pure word for if in steede of it you shift me of with your interpretations you forsake the Confession of your faith breake the couenants made betweene vs. For I am not so vnaduised to renounce all Antiquity Councells Miracles and the rest for your interpretations and opinions Agreeably to this to your owne promise that which is sett downe in your 5. article I demaund two things at your hands First that you shew me by the pure word the truth of all those articles which you will haue me to beleeue which I am ready to do if I see them in the Bible euen of Geneua Secondly that by the same pure word you shew me my errours Both of these I demand for both of these you professe to do when as you say that the Scripture is the rule of all truth and you acknowledge no other For put the case I should erre in my faith I would be loth to leaue that to follow a worse No wise man I take it though his horse haue but one eye wil make exchāge for another that is blind I desire therfore to see by the pure word the truth of yours Which you cānot refuse to do for you are sent to illuminate vs shew vs the truth To be plaine therfore my first demaund is that you shew me by the pure word the Articles of your Confessiō by which I must be illuminated and made to knowe the right way In the 36. and 37. article you say that we receaue by faith or to vse your ordinary termes by the mouth of faith the body of our Lord. Shew me this in the pure word that the supper is the figure of his body Through all the Geneua Bible I find not so much as mention made of the mouth of faith neither do I finde any talke of a figure in those places where it speakes of the supper Shew me but this I will straight beleeue it and abiure my former Religion This if you do not I must needs hold you as you ar for impostours In the 11. article it is said Originall sinne doth continually remaine after Baptisme in asmuch as it is a fault howbeit the children of God are freed from the cōdemnation due for the same he through his gracious goodnes not imputing it vnto them Shew me this in the pure word of Geneua In the 24. article Iesus Christ is giuen vs for our sole Aduocate The strife between vs is about that worde Sole shew me that in the Geneua Bible In the 20. article We beleeue we are made partakers of that iustice to witt of Christians by faith alone All the controuersie lyeth in that word alone and whether workes donne in the faith of Christ be necessary shew me that worde alone in these places where mention is made of workes donne in the faith of IESVS CHRIST and not in these places where the Iudaicall workes of the law are excluded from Christian iustification for of these only do we dispute I haue turned the Bible for the places cited in the margent for these articles but cannot find any of these articles in the pure word Hauing quitt your hands well in shewing me the truth of that which you desire I should beleeue shew me as well that other thing I demaunde to witt the errours of those articles which I now beleeue The articles of my faith are for example to omitt that point of the B. Sacrement allready spoken of That there is a Purgatory Intercession of Saints Auricular Confession and the like I acknowledge the Sanctity of Pilgrimages of Religious vowes Against which in your 24. article you say Intercession of Saints is an abuse Purgatorrie an illusion and so of religious vowes Pilgrimages and the like Shew me my errour in these points that out of the pure word In your margent I find no text cited which is a shrewd suspiciō that you haue none Perchance you wil aunsweare that it sufficeth for a proofe of errour in these points that they are not found in the holy scripture because nothing must be beleeued but that which is in the scripture My reply to this is to know of you whether this proposition That nothing must be beleeued which is not in the holy scripture be found in the pure word of God or If it be not then you M. Minister in propounding this proposition to be beleeued of me do falsify your owne fayth and breake your promise for you sayd you wold not admitt any other rule of truth but the scripture which is in effect that you will bring forth nothing but that which is in scripture and now you thrust vpon me this proposition which is not there to be found this as a fundamental proposition vpon which ar builded many others but if this proposition be in the pure word shew it but take heede you bring nothing but the pure word When by the pure word you shall shew me the truth of your articles and the falshood of mine as hath been said before I am ready forthwith to acknowledge my errour to embrace your faith But remember I pray you your promise that you would by the pure word shew the truth of your faith and my errours and that I renounced all antiquity Councels Miracles Inhibitions Lawes visions vppon these termes only and no other Looke that in steed of the pure word you do not shift me of with your interpretations or your owne consequences for either that interpretation is in the Scripture or no if it be there bring forth
the same pure word This article therfore is of great consequence and with good reason to be beleeued ought to be found in the holy Scripture which if the Ministers should frame in the force of their owne braynes they deserue doubtles to be banished all honest company as men impudently bold which seeke to make the world renounce all things abouesaid for a proposition of their owne inuention and contradict themselues hauing before said they would only carry themselues as the organe of the wholy Scripture Let vs therfore set downe in one line first the article then vnder that the text cited in the margent for proofe thereof Article 5. The vvritten vvord is the rule of all truth or els as you commonly say Nothing is to be beleeued but that vvhich is in the vvritten vvord In the margent of this article you cite 4. textes for proofe of the contents 1. Text. You shall not add any thing to the vvorde vvhich I commaunde nor take any thing from the same Saith Moyses to the people of Israel Deuter. 4. Vers 2. 2. Text. That vvhich I commaund you that shall you doe neither shall you adde any thing nor diminish Deut. 12. Vers 32. Examen Heere is not any worde of the article in these passages for you neyther finde written word nor rule of all truth which are the two termes of the article wherfore this pure word doth not conteine that which the article affirmeth Lett vs weigh it more exactly 1. Moyses spake vnto the Iewes of that only which he ordained to witt of the Iudaicall law and of no other 2. he spake not of the written worde of which alone the article is but vniuersally of the word 3. Albeit he spake vnto Christians and of the only written word haue we increased the bookes of Moyses haue we added ought vnto them 4. Thinke you that the Prophets composing new Scriptures and ioyning them with the bookes of Moyses haue infringed this precept 5. if Moyses forbid to beleeue any thing but that which he ordayned we must neyther beleeue the Psalmes of Dauid nor the other Prophets nor the Ghospell for he ordained not that which these conteyne Perceaue you not how ridiculous a thing it is to alledge this text to verify by the pure word your article which sayth the written word is the rule if all truth The same article is prooued by an other passage Galat. 1. Vers 8. 3. Text. Although vve or an Angell from heauen preach othervvise then that vvhich vve haue preached vnto you be he accursed Examen In this text I neither read written word nor rule of all truth which are the two termes of the article wherefore the text hath not that which the article teacheth Nay it containes not one only word therof come to the examen 1. Is there in the text anie mention of the written word of which onlie we dispute and the article speakes of no other 2. Who knoweth not that the Apocalipse was reuealed and writt after that epistle of S. Paule and yet besides that which S. Paule euangelized it also must be beleeued Or is he which preacheth and beleeueth the Apocalipse accursed Or rather is S. Paule accursed who preached manie things afterward which are not in that epistle to the Galathians who is there of so small capacitie that in the reading of this chapter doth not see that the word otherwise is the same in sense with against The Apostle as it is manifest at the verie opening of the epistle crieth out against those which togeather with the law of Christ would ioyne Circumcision against the doctrine of the Apostles The wordes immediatlie going before make the matter more cleere I maruaile saith he to the Galat 1. Vers 6. 7.8 that leauing him who hath called you vnto the grace of Christ you are so soone transferred vnto an other Ghospell which is not another vnles there be some that trouble you will inuert the Ghospell of Christ But although we or an Angell from heauen preach to you otherwise then that which we haue preached to you be he accursed Is it not euident that S. Paul reiecteth that only which is against that which he had preached Then it is apparent also that this text makes nothing for that which the article contains to witt That the written word is the rule of all truth The last passage cited for the forsaid article is out of the Apocalipse 22. Vers 18. in these wordes 4. Texte I testifie to euerie one hearing the vvordes of the prophecie of this booke If any man shall add to these things God shall adde vppon him the plagues vvritten in this booke And if anie man shall diminish of the vvords of the booke of this prophecy God shall take avvay his part out of the booke of life and out of the holy Citty and of these things that be vvritten in this booke Neither do I reade in this passage written word of the entyre Bible of which only the Article intreats nor rule of all truth wherfore the text sayth not that the pure word of the entire Bible is the rule of all truth as the Article auerreth rather the text consents not in one only terme with the article Examine it 1. Is it not manifest that S. Iohn spake not but of the word conteyned in the Apocalipse which the Ministers will not allowe to be the rule of all truth to what purpose then for proofe of that Article That the pure word of the entire Bible is the rule of all truth do they bring out this text 2. if S. Iohn sayd that nothing must be added to that word of the Apocalipse in this sense and after this Ministerial paraphrase that nothing must be beleeued which is not therin contained then he which should beleeue the Ghospell the Epistles of S. Paul of S. Iohn and others and the old testament should be accursed Where were the Ministers witts thinke you when to proue that nothing must be bleeued but that which is in the Bible they alledged this passage 3. To adde to the Apocalipse is to thrust in somthing as part of that sacred booke doe we doe so What frantik people are your Ministers and you o Caluinists how grossely doth your Confession of fayth abuse you which treats you in such a fashion as if you had not eyes to reade nor iudgment to vnderstand the signification of one pure text How many Ministeriall glosses ar heere wanting to make these textes speake that which this article contaynes Lett vs go on Whence haue you that the bookes of the old and new Testament are holy Scripture how know you that these bookes are Canonicall By the inward persuasion of the holy Ghost so you aunsweare in the 4. article That he makes vs decerne them from other Ecclesiasticall bookes It is not then by the holy Scripture that you know this for your inward persuasion is not the written word Consequently it is false That the pure word is the rule of