to the other and yet all pretend to truth and to be true Members of the Reformation E. F. I tell thee once again That a man is said to be a true Member of the Reformation by being supposed to have left the Communion of the Church of Rome but yet that every one who has left that Communion may not in all respects maintain what is Truth although he may pretend to it And therefore a man that has left that Communion is still obliged to make a strict inquiry whether it be lawful for him to embrace the terms of that other Communion into which he has admitted himself and after he has done so not to desert it without good reason Mr. G. Does not every Member of the Reformation pretend to have reason on his side Esq F. But the great question is whether he has reason or no. Sir I cannot stay with you at present any longer but before I go I will leave with you one familiar instance which seems to me to be a sufficient confutation of that whole Book which we have discoursed of Mr. G. I long to hear it Esq F. Suppose the Emperor of the Turks should turn Christian Mr. G. I wish he would Esq F. You mean Roman Catholick Mr. G. Unless he turns Roman Catholick he might as well never turn Christian Esq F. We will let that alone at present You may well think that after his conversion he will be very desirous to have his people turn as well as himself and you must needs allow it to be very reasonable for the whole Empire to do it Mr. G. Nothing can be more reasonable Esq F. Now suppose one man turns because thoroughly convinced of the Excellency of the Christian Religion Another retains his wonted kindness for his old Mahumetan way of Worship but yet for fear of losing by it turns too A third to gain somewhat by it which he knows not otherwise how to get turns Christian although his sentiments are the same with those of the second A fourth has some high flying hopes and although he does not turn at present yet he is ready to do it when ever it is required of him It is therefore lawful to turn Christian or to be ready to turn to save by it or to get by it or in hopes of getting for this reason or for that reason or for any other reason whatsoever Mr. G. You are pleasant Sir but I do not perceive the consequence of this Discourse Esq F. Think on it and you will find it to be as good a consequence as that which your Author so much insists upon But I can stay no longer Parson Farewell I should be glad to see you at my House Mr. G. I shall not forget to wait upon you Esq F. You must forgive me for calling you Parson still I protest I cannot forget my old Compellation Mr. G. Sir I am your Servant The Third Dialogue Esq F. SIR your humble Servant This is kindly done I find you Catholicks have more Charity than some would make you to have Mr. G. I am always true to my word Sir. Esq F. In lesser matters you mean. Mr. G. Nay in the greatest Esq F. We will not dispute that Point You are heartily welcome although I must frankly tell you Not so welcome as you were wont to be Pray will you sit down Mr. G. I fear I shall disturb you Sir. Esq F. Not in the least I was diverting my self with the famous Pamphlet which we talked of when we were last together and am glad you are come that we may have a little more chat about it M. G. I do not doubt but that you have read it over long before now Pray Sir what do you think of it Esq F. I have read it over twice or thrice and think of it as I told you when I was with you viz. That the Book is a pleasant Book but that there is little of Argument in it and that which it has does not at all prove the Conclusion Mr. G. The men of the Reformation I suppose do not much like the Conclusion Esq F. I know not what others like I for my part like every thing that is well proved Let me intreat you to take the Book and as you turn over the leaves to give me the Contents of every Dialogue and let us consider together with what strength he proves That according to the Principles of the Reformation a man may change his Religion as oft as he pleases and that it is an indifferent thing what opinions a man holds Mr. G. Does he not in his first Dialogue show you the facility of such a change p. 5. And give you instances of those who have made it p. 7. Does he not tell you how readily they of different perswasions join together in the same Worship p. 8 That the Synod of Charenton has allowed it p. 9 Does he not instance in the several Changes which have been made here in England p. 10 And in the Opinions of several Doctors who have allowed Hereticks to be members of the Church In his second Dialogue he makes mention of great differences amongst those of the Reformation concerning their Rule of Faith but that it is resolved at last into the judgment of every particular person He then quotes several gross opinions of Calvin and others which he declares to be the Doctrine of the Reformation and that they may be believed by any man whatsoever Esq F. Pray go on Sir. Mr. G. In his Third he shows That every Woman and Cobler according to the Doctrine of the Reformation may preach and instruct others and hold several Blasphemous Tenets which he there gives an account of In his Fourth he relates other wicked Tenets of the Reformation especially such as encourage looseness of manners In his fifth Such as have respect to Christs having establish'd a Church to the truth of what he and the Apostles taught to the disagreement about the Canon of Scripture to the changing of Scripture to the Doctrines of Justifying Faith of Works of Gods Grace of the keeping his Commandments all which wicked Tenets he makes it appear that several of the Reformers have held and therefore that they are the Doctrines of the Reformation and may lawfully be held by any Member thereof if he will adhere to his own Principles Esq F. We shall see that by and by Pray give me the sense of the two last Dialogues Mr. G. In the beginning of the sixth he inveighs against the Church of England for pretending to impose upon her Members her Interpretations of Scripture which is no more than what is done by the Papists and is directly contrary to the Doctrine of the Reformation In the latter end thereof and in the beginning of the seventh he shews that according to the Principles of the Reformation a man may believe all the Doctrines of the Popery that several of the Reformers have believed several of them and that the only
different Persons do put different Interpretations upon the Scripture nay since the same Persons do interpret it at one time one way and at another time another it must necessarily follow that the Principle upon which the Reformation is built is very uncertain For one Man may be of one Perswasion another of another a third of one different from both Nay the same Person may change his Perswasion twice or thrice in a day and yet continue still a true Son of the Reformation Esq F. I do now guess what you would be at and perceive that you are well acquainted with a Book called Pax Vobis Mr. G. That is a notable Book Esq F. I allow it to have a great deal of Wit more of Malice but nothing of Argument Mr. G. The Book has sold wonderfully which is a sign that it has Argument in it Esq F. It is no sign amongst us of the Reformation for we read Books of all sorts and are pleased with every thing that is well done in its kind whether with Argument or without it whether written by an Enemy or a Friend And this is such a freedom that I would not part with it for all the World. So that if I had no other Argument against your Religion this to me would seem sufficient that if I had once embraced it and such a sort of Book as Pax Vobis should come out against it I should not dare without a License to peep into it but should think it a Book as much to be avoided as Chillingworth Dr. Stillingfleet's Rational Grounds of the Protestant Religion or the Bible it self Mr. G. Nay the Reformation gives you freedom enough for it allows you not only to read any Books but to be of any Perswasion if you judg it to be agreeable to Scripture Esq F. You have expressed in short the whole design of that Book in which altho there are seven Dialogues yet is there no more said in all of them to prove his Conclusion than in any one of them Mr. G. May not a Man use different Arguments to prove the same thing Esq F. Yes he may But this Author has not done it for to prove his Conclusion he makes use of the same Argument in every Dialogue with variety of Reflections upon several Persons and Things Mr. G. Is he not to be commended for it Esq F. He is to be commended for his variety of Reflections for this makes his Book pleasant But when he would pretend to make out so material an Objection against the Reformation it cannot sure be so very commendable to make use of the same Argument over and over again But this seems to be an allowed Practice amongst you for altho all your most considerable Objections have been answer'd an hundred times yet are we daily troubled with them as if they had never been heard of before and almost every Fortnight out comes that astonishing Question Where was your Church before Luther Mr. G. If he makes use but of one Argument it is however such an Argument as ought to perswade every honest Man to forsake the Reformation which is founded upon a Principle that gives a Man leave to be in England a Protestant in Germany a Lutheran in Hungary a Socinian and to change his Religion as often as he pleases Esq F. This is all out of Pax Vobis But how does it appear that a Man may thus change his Religion from that Principle That the Scriptures as any Man of sound Judgment interprets them are the Rule of Faith Mr. G. Because a Man may alter his Judgment and interpret Scripture otherwise than he did and since he may lawfully stick to that Interpretation which he himself puts upon it he may change his Religion as often as he thinks fit to alter his Judgment Esq F. That does not always follow for a Man may perhaps think fit to profess an alteration of his Judgment without any just Reason or without having made any inquiry whether he may safely do it or no and if he does so the alteration of his Judgment is so far from being a Reason why he should change his Religion that it is in it self a great fault Mr. G. But suppose he does find Reason to alter his Judgment may he not then change his Religion Esq F. Yes he is bound to do it altho he should change Truth for Error Mr. G. And so he may turn from one thing unto another until he has turn'd as often as there are Points in the Compass and be a true Child of the Reformation all the while Esq F. He is bound to alter his Perswasion as oft as he meets with sufficien◠Arguments to convince him that he ought to do so But there is a great deal of difference between what is Truth and what a Man believes to be so A Man is bound to act according to an erroneous Conscience until he is better informed but it does not therefore follow that his Conscience is not erroneous or that if he has had opportunities of undeceiving himself he is not in a very dangerours Condition Now the Author of Pax Vobis would insinuate that those of the Reformation do believe that to be true which any Church or particular Persons judg to be so and that there is a Liberty allowed amongst them to profess or deny any Tenets whatsoever Mr. G. How can it be otherwise since there are such different Opinions amongst them 〈◊〉 some of them have so often changed their minds and yet have still continued true Members of the Reformation Esq F. The Reformation is a word which denotes all those whether Churches or Persons which have left the Communion of the Church of Rome Now it may happen that some of those which have left that Communion may separate from it by degrees others all at once that some of them may maintain some of that Church's Errors and others may maintain Errors as bad as any which she holds But does it therefore follow because all these are stiled Members of the Reformation upon the account of their not living in Communion with the Church of Rome that they are all in the right and that a man may lawfully hold whatever is maintained by any of them Mr. G. They all pretend to soundness of judgment and their common Rule of Faith is Scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment Esq F. The Rule is good but their pretences are not For a man may think his judgment to be sound when it really is not and although he is bound to adhere to that interpretation which for want of soundness of judgment he puts upon Scripture yet the interpretation is not therefore at all the truer nor can it be an indifferent thing for me or any one else to approve or not to approve of it Mr. G. One would think that it were an indifferent thing when there are and have been so many great men amongst you who maintain Opinions contrary the one
Church of England gives you leave nay desires you to examine the truth of her Doctrines and the lawfulness of her prudential provisions and orders and so depends not upon her own bare Authority but is ready to justifie to every one of her Members the reasonableness of her commands which is plain and honest dealing and ought to give great satisfaction to every wise and honest man. Mr. G. I wonder why you should so magnifie the Church of England which has as much establish'd this liberty of believing what we please as any other part of the Reformation having in a few years changed and establish'd different Religions by publick Acts of Parliament as this Author has made out p. 10. E. F. It never troubles my head what Changes and Alterations have been made or how they have been made That which I am concerned to know is Whether the present settlement is contrived to promote Virtue and Goodness as it ought to do and whether it contains nothing contrary to the Word of God. Mr. G. Pray Sir is it lawful to settle one thing at one time and the quite contrary at another Esq F. I do not say so They who at any time settle what is destructive of good Manners or contrary to the Word of God do amiss There is no such thing at present setled in the Church of England and therefore what care I how things were heretofore or by what steps and degtees they came to be so well setled as they are Great alterations cannot be compleated in a moment and it required some time to bring men out of that darkness in which they had so long sat and if we were to be brought back again to that condition in which we then were thirty or forty years might well be allowed to effect it in for how hasty soever some folk may be it is not so easie a work to convert millions on the sudden And besides when men are blind they are much more willing to have their sight restored than when they see very well to suffer their eyes to be put out Mr. G. I had thought that all Religious Congregations and Pretenders to Piety had at their first beginning been in the height of their perfection Esq F. That is one of the most silly things which your Author insists upon p. 39. for Truth after it has been obscured for a great while in any Nation cannot be made immediately to recover its wonted brightness and when great opposition is made against it it is very well if at first it gets any ground at all And therefore although a certain Gentleman has taken a great deal of pains to show how indecent and improper it is to call King Hen. VIII the Postilion of the Reformation yet does that expression very well declare his Courage and Resolution in first undertaking so hazardous an Enterprize as well as the Effects thereof his dashing all that were near and about him as well as his receiving some dirt himself And although but little then was done in comparison of what was done afterward yet was it well for us that so much was done and I had much rather have lived in the lattter end of his Reign than in the days of our King John when his Holiness was pleased to shut up our Church-doors and would not be prevailed with to open them until the King upon his knees had resigned his Crown unto his Legat Pandulphus After the Reign of King Edw. 6. the Reformation came to no true Settlement until the days of Queen Elizabeth since which time the alterations have been very inconsiderable neither do I see what occasion we have for any more But if any should happen as long as nothing were established contrary to the Word of God I could freely comply with them Mr. G. That is according to the Principles of several Reformers who complied with the several Changes as fast as they were made Esq F. If their compliance was after the manner of honest Mr. Chillingworth who when he was in the right way suspected he was in the wrong and thereupon went out of it but upon the discovery of his mistake returned immediately into it again they were to be commended for it But if they turned out of interest what do you tell me of them If they were Knaves and Hypocrites I do not intend to increase their number Mr. G. Is it not a scandal upon the Reformation that such men should be of it who give themselves the liberty of doing whatever seemeth best in their own eyes Esq F. The Reformation as I once before told you is a word and signifies no more than the forsaking the Church of Rome and what objection is it against any mans leaving the Communion of that Church That amongst those who have left it there are as bad if not worse than those who continue in it What if amongst the Reformers there be found a Vicar of Bray or an A. P. in an University must it needs follow that you and some others will do as they did if there were occasion Think of that a little because some men are always turning when 't is convenient so to do will you allow their Carriage to be an objection against all Converts Mr. G. Well Sir it is a very wicked thing that they who stile themselves Reformers should be guilty of such practises and hold such Blasphemous Tenets as this Book assures you they have done Esq F. Dost thou think that I value any man barely because he is a Reformer if his Faith be Erroneous or his Life scandalous For instance if you could make me believe that one of the Reformation drinks till he drinks Healths to the P though perhaps when time was he would have drunk it t'other way that a second Reformer is so indifferent in his Religion that he cares not to defend his own Church to be a true Church And that a third outswears the boldest Collonel in the King of Polands Army and drinks confusion to all Religions till at last he drinks an Health to the D I think you cannot desire more liberal Suppositions against our selves than these are Nay I make no question but you may find some mere Time-servers some Drunkards and common Swearers and very scandalous debauched persons not only in the Reformation at large but even in the Communion of the Church of England Pray Sir mark what I say and make your best on 't our Doctrine is pure and so is our Form of Worship but alas the actions and lives of many of us are not so But must not I therefore respect those worthy Gentlemen whose lives are unblamable and who by their Writings and prudent demeanor have given such reputation to the Christian Profession and to that Excellent Church of which they are Members Mr. G. Why Sir you are very free indeed with your own Communion some of which you care not if they be thought as bad as any of those Doctors which the Author of Pax Vobis makes mention of Esq F. What if they be Is it a sin to leave the Communion of the Church of Rome because there are such as these out of it As there are a great many bad men amongst those of the Reformation and if there be any who hold it lawful for every man to believe and practise what he pleases I reckon those to be the worst of all so there are a great many good men too As there is error amongst some of them so is there truth amongst others and if any part of the Reformation ever had the latter I am sure the present Church of England has And therefore although I do very much suspect that the Author of Pax Vobis has not done fairly by the Reformers yet granting all that he has said to be true I am firmly resolved and I have great reason to be so notwithstanding all the different and perhaps Blasphemous Opinions of others Notwithstanding the various changes and alterations which have been made by our forefathers To continue firm to the present establishment and so I believe will all the considering people that are in the whole Nation Come Sir we will talk no more about these matters Only let me add one thing before we go That you of the Church of Rome have at this time the least reason to find fault with the Heresies Schisms and extravagant Tenets of some of the Reformation since it is so visible that they are like to do you better service than your best Arguments FINIS
difference betwixt the Papists and the Reformers in this case is That the former believe their Doctrines to be true upon the Authority of the Church the latter because they judg them to be agreeable to Scriptures He avers in his Conclusion That according to the Principles of the Reformation no Doctrine or Tenet whatsoever can be wicked or blasphemous but that all are sacred and solid Judgments and reflects very sharply upon Dr. Stil for making Jupiter to be the Supreme God. Esq F. He is very witty upon the Doctor and would fain perswade him to turn Pagan and I believe if the Doctor would be ruled by him he could teach him how to do it without ever turning from being a Christian But since you have given a brief account of this Book pray let us reckon what the whole thereof amounts to As far as I can perceive the sum of all is no more than this That several of the Reformers have changed from one thing to another and that some of them have held most gross and scandalous Tenets and therefore since every man is bound to follow his own Judgment he may according to the Principles of the Reformation lawfully embrace any Opinion or Doctrine whatsoever Mr. G. That is indeed the Sum of what he has said and to what the Reformation will never be able to give any satisfactory answer Esq F. Be not too hasty good Sir in your Inferences Because men are of different opinions and will be so as long as the World endures does it therefore follow that every one allows all opinions lawful and that it is the same thing what opinion a man holds Mr. G. Any man would think so since they allow it to be lawful to change their opinions as oft as they in their own judgments shall think it reasonable so to do and every man believes all the while his opinion to be true Esq F. Does every one who believes his opinion to be true believe the opinion of others which is contrary thereunto to be true also Mr. G. By no means for as this Author tells you p. 2. Each particular Congregation constrains as much as it can all people to believe its own Tenets Protestancy would have us all be Protestants and would root Lutherans out of the World as well as Popery Lutherans would if they could draw all to their own net Presbytery esteems it self to be the best of all and would crush Protestancy if it could but that if we look upon the whole body of the Reformation as it includes all Reformed Congregations distinct from Popery there is a holy extension of Spirit and Liberty for to be either Lutherans Presbyterians Protestants and any thing but Popery Esq F. Those words and what follows make a certain sound in a mans ears but I do not perceive any great matter to be in them They rather imply a Contradiction than any thing else For if the several parts of the Reformation believe their own opinions to be true and would have all others to embrace them how can the whole Body which consists of the parts be truly said to allow a liberty of believing what every man pleaseth They may not only allow a liberty but may assert it to be necessary that every one should follow his own judgment although he be never so much mistaken But where do they allow it to be an indifferent thing whether he be mistaken or no Mr. G. What think you of the Synod of Charenton in France held about the year 1634 which expresly says that for your Salvation it is all alike whether you be a Calvinist Lutheran or of any other Congregation Esq F. To cut you short in this matter It is not to be supposed that I who am a Layman should understand what Synods have determin'd or what are the Opinions of particular Learned men in these and such like cases and therefore cannot tell whether this Author has rightly represented matters or no. Mr. G. Why should you think otherwise Esq F. Because there are some people in the World who give themselves a great liberty of representing things either truly or falsly as they judg it to be most expedient for their present purpose Mr. G. Why do you suppose this Author to have done so Esq F. He may have done so for ought that I can tell but I do not suppose that he has but rather chuse to allow all his Representations to be true and yet I cannot see what other effect his Book can have upon the mind of any judicious man than the giving him some little sensual pleasure in the reading of it Mr. G. It has had good effect amongst some people and a certain man of Authority in a certain University publickly owns himself in all companies to have been converted by it Esq F. Every man in every place of Authority there is not always the wisest or the honestest man in the University but whatever your certain man may say I am of opinion That if this Book makes no more Converts any where else than 't is likely to make in an Vniversity there has been no small pains taken to little purpose Mr. G. You will allow I suppose that this Author may have said enough to convince any man in the University or out of it of the absurd Opinions of several Reformers Esq F. He may do that indeed if all the Stories which he tells are true But how do these mens Errors concern me or what will it avail to perswade me to relinquish my Opinion which is the great design of this Book that others are or have been mistaken My Business is to to enquire Whether the Terms of that Communion to which I belong are just and equitable and since God be thanked I find them to be so I do not intend to forsake that Communion because others are not or have not been of my mind Mr. G. But the Synod of Charenton tells you that you may if you please Esq F. I am not certain whether the Synod of Charenton tells me so or no but if it does it will not weigh at all with me since the Church of England tells me no such thing but having prescribed such terms of Communion as are Just and Orthodox declares those Members to be guilty of Schism which depart from her Mr. G. She would I know arbitrarily impose her Rules and Interpretations of Scripture upon her Members and what is this else but a Spice of Popery for which she nevertheless pretends to have so great an aversation Esq F. This indeed your Author objects several times and if it be a Spice of Popery I heartily wish that Popery had nothing worse in it but you are both under a great mistake to fancy any agreement betwixt Popery and the Church of England in this matter for Popery requires an intire Submission without any previous Tryal or Examination you must believe and practice what the Church prescribes because she requires it Whereas the