following Treatise proues the contrarie then it vvere good for euery church that will auoid communion with profane men to meete in priuate and then to shut their dore when their own compagnie is meet together else I cannot see how they can auoid hauing communion with wicked men to wit if beare hearing be an acte of communion Secondly as this hearing is not against any Article of their faith so likewise it was not in the iudgement of the church esteemed as a thing that might not be borne withall The letter you shall find after the Treatise this may appeare by a copy of a letter which we haue heer following published where the church in the counsell which they giue to the church of London do sufficiently make it appeare that their iudgement did manifestlie differ from those which now haue made this breach and which is well to be marked by the reader how that the church when this letter was write enioyed the Pastor and their company was fiue tymes greater then it was when this breach was made because these men in his their error are vvilling to retraine it and not being able to make any sufficient reply to the answere made in this Treatise to their obiections though the manuscript therof hath bene in their hands for many yeares yet because they will find somthing to say more then others haue done heretofore though of lesse force therefore they haue ioyned some new obiections which both the seducer and the seduced do thinke are vnanswerable therfore it will not be amisse for vs to propound them and to giue some answere to them that so if their stomachs serue they may reply to all at once First they obiect and say that we hold the church of England to be a false church and the Ministers thereof to be Antichristian and yet we go thither to worship the true God Before we answere directly to this objection we shall intreate the Reader and themselues to consider of this that followes First A church may be said to be false in diuers respects and according to those respects vve are to haue diuers Considerations thereof as first a church may be said to be false in respect of outward order to vvit vvhen a church is gathered together not according to the rule of Christ neither in their outward gouernement do they conforme therevnto now this church cannot be said to be the church of Christ being thus erected and gouerned contrary to the rule of Christ but is false and Antichristian and yet notwithstanding the faith professed by this church and the doctrines taught in this church may be sound and according to God Secondly a church may be false not onely in respect of outward order but likewise in respect of faith and doctrine Now to this latter vve counsell no man to go because from thence no good can be expected and that is the esteeme vve haue of the church of Rome But now as in a true church in respect of outward order there may be manie false doctrines taught so in a church that is false in respect of outward order there may be manie sound and seasonable truths taught and this esteeme vve haue of the preaching in England Namelie that the doctrine there taught according to the Articles of their faith is sound and the effects of it hath appeared in the vvorking of faith in the hearts of manie thousands For the outward order or meeting there as a church that concernes themselues and those that are in vnion vvith that church estate but not all that heare them Now that worshipping of God which consists in hearing his word is warrantable for vs to doe in England we proue it by this argument That preaching which ordinarily begets men to the faith of Christ may lawfully be heard But the preaching of many Ministers in the Church of England hath and doth ordinarily beget men to the faith of Christ. Therefore the preaching of many Ministers in England may lawfully be heard The first part of this sillogisme is proued out of Rom 10. where the Apostle telling what is the ordinary vvay God vses to beget men to the faith of Christ telles vs it comes by hearing of the vvord of God preached if faith comes by hearing the vvord of God preached to vvit if that be the outward meanes then there is no question but that a man may heare such preaching and any man may blush for shame that shall deny this so that the major part of the argument is cleare And for the Minor parte they cannot deny it no more then a man at noon day can deny the sunne to shine for if any man make question whether faith comes ordinarily by the preaching and hearing in England it is a great question vvether they euer had faith or no yet because some are so grosse as to deny this we will therefore proue the contrarie by this Argument That preaching and hearing which makes them which were altogether carnall and so not capable of a church-estate to become saints so fit for a church-estate That preaching must needs beget men to the faith But the preaching and hearing in England made them that were vnfit carnall to become saints and so fit members to the true church which were not so before Therfore the preaching in England and hearing the same doth beget men to the faith That the preaching and hearing in England hath done this Witnesse the church of Leyden and of Amstelredam Let them tell vs where they receiued their faith if they say they had it not till they ioyned in these bodies how could they then be true to their owne grounds that none but visible Christians are fit matter for the church vvhereas none can be so esteemed except in the iudgement of charitie we iudge them to haue true faith But some of these that haue made this diuision haue not denyed but faith is wrought by the preaching and hearing in England and yet which is wonderfull contradiction they say it is not the vvord of God as it is there preached so that it seemes there is something besides the vvord of God which is an ordinary meanes to beget men to the faith and there is another vvord besides Gods vvord that vvill do it the like absurditie hath sildome bene heard from any that professe them selues to be Christians and that they may not seeme to say this vvithout some reason marke the reason that they bring to proue it say they we do deny that to be the vvord of God as it is there preached by a false Ministry though the vvord it selfe be of God yet as it is by them preached it is none of Gods vvord so Gods vvord here stands at fast and loose it is Gods vvord and it is not Gods vvord as if they should say it is Gods word if M r. Canne shall preach it but if another that is a Minister in England preach the same it is none of Gods vvord so
nothing but apparant sin in the vvay can excuse the vvithdravving from it vvhen occasioÌ„ of enjoying it is offred Oh that there vvere not to be found vvho being verie scrupulous of comming neer to any thing amisse in outvvard ordinances or to any person failing in them yet make no scruple of complying and conforming vvith the vvorld so farre in the eagre pursuit of wordlie profits immoderate vse of vvorldlie delights and fulfilling the lusts of the vvorld and flesh dvvelling in them as that there appears scarse an hayr-breath or difference betvveene them and meer vvorldlings vvhich know not God Which latter euils are both vvorse in themselues as being expreslie condemned by the lavv of God and light of nature and more odious in the persons as being more personall free and voluntarie then those in the other to vvhich they are carried by the violent courrent of the times A third sort of opposites I make account to meet vvith more vntractable then the former and more vehementlie bent against the thing propounded by me out of prejudice and passion then the other by scruple of conscience or shevv of reason To them I can hardlie say any thing it not being their manner to read or vvillinglie to hear that vvhich crosseth their prejudices yet something I must saic touching them out of the vvofull experience of manie yeares taken of them though not much I thanke the Lord amongst them vnto vvhom I haue ministred Some of these I haue found carried vvith so excessiue admiration of some former guides in their course as they think it halfe heresie to call into question any of their determinations or practises We must not thinke that onely the Pharisees of old and papists of later times are superstitiously addicted to the traditions of the elders and authoritie of the church In all Sects there are diuers speciallie of the vveaker sort vvho being the lesse reall in their conceptions are the more personall that rather chuse to followe the trodde of blinde tradition if beaten by some such foregoers as they admire then the right vvaie of Gods Word by others to be shewed them aftervvards Some again are as much addicted to themselues as the former to others conceauing in effect though they vvill not professe it the same of their owne heads vvhich the papists do of their head the Pope viz that they cannot erre or be deceaued and this speciallie in such matters as for vvhich they haue suffred trouble and affliction formerlie and so haueing bought them deare they valew them highly But it is to marchantlike to striue to ouer fell a thing vvhich vve haue formerlie ouer bought vve must buy the trueth and not fell it at any rate but must account nothing either true or good according to the valuation vvhich vve haue set vpon it but God There is also a third sort highly aduanceing a kinde of priuatiue goodnes and religion and vvho bend their force rather to the vveaking of other men in their courses then to the building vp of themselues in their owne and in trueth rather to seperation from men not onely in euill but euen in that vvhich is good for some other euill conceaued in them then to vnion vvith God and his people in his holie ordinances and halfe imagining that they draw neer enough to God if they can vvithdraw far enough from other men Great zeale they haue against the false church ministerie and vvorship so being or by them conceaued so to be and against any appearing euill in the true but litle for that vvhich is true and good as their practice manifests but euill is as contrarie to euill as good is to euil and so is that zeale plainlie carnall vvhich carries a man further against euill then for good seeing no euill is fo euill as good is good Fourthly there are some to be found so sowred vvith moodines discontentement as they become vnsociable almost Lukanthropoi Werewolfs as they speake if they se nothing lamentable they are readie to lament If they take contentment in any it is in them alone vvhom they finde discontented If they read any bookes they are onely invectiues speciallie against publique states and their gouernours All things tending to accord and vnion any manner of vvay are vnwelcome vnto them They haue their portion in Ismaels blessing Genes 16. 12. Lastly there vvant not vvho as Iehu in his fierce marching couered his ambition crueltie and zeale for his owne house vnder the pretext of zeale for Gods thinke to couer and palliate their own both grosser and more proper and personall corruptions vnder a furious march not onely against the failings but the persons also failing of infirmitie in matters of church order and ordinances Who if they vvere vvell acquainted and duly affected with their owne both more voluntarie and greater sins vvould slack their Iehus peace yea turn their course though not to vvalke vvith others in euill vvhich God forbid yet to apply accommodate themselues vnto them in that which is good so far as possiblie they could obserue any vvay by the Lord opened vnto them I could instance in and name diuers perticuler persons monstrouslie growne out of kinde this vvay But that course I leaue vnto them vvho rather desire the disgraceing then the bettering of them against vvhom they deal or perhaps conceaue in their leauened hearts that there is no other vvay of bettering speciallie persons of meant condition then by shameing and disgracâ—ing them Genes 49. 5. 6. But let not my soule come in their secrete in vvhose habitations are such instruments of cruellic These things thus promised the objections follovv vvhich I haue either heard from others or can conceaue of my selfe most coullerable against the practize by me propounded And they are of two sorts Some of them are framed vpon supposition that the ministres in that church are in themselues lawfull of God but not yet to be heard by reason of the abuses and euills to be found in their ministrations Others vvithdraw hearin those the more vpon the contrarie supposition to vvit that the very order and constitution of that church and ministerie is papall and vnlawfull Novv the examination of the grounds of the one or other I vvill not in this place medle vvith but though both cannot be true vvill for the satisfieng of the vvithdrawers on both parts graunt for the present to either part their ground and so examine distinctlie vvhat exceptions they can or doe build herevpon But first for the former Supposing a church and the ministerie thereof essentiallie lavvfull it cannot but be lavvfull for the members of other churches in generall vnion and assosiation vvith it to communicate therevvith in things lavvfull and lavvfullie done seing the end of vnion is communion God hath in vain vnited persons and states together if they may in nothing communicate together But he who vvould haue vs receaue the vveak in faith vvhom God hath receaued vvould not haue vs
refuse the fellovvship of churches in that vvhich is good for any vveaknes in them of one sort or other And this vve haue so plainlie and plentfullie commended vnto vs both by the Prophets yea by Christ himselfe in the Iewish church and Apostles and Apostolicall men in the first christian churchs in which many errours euils of all kindes vvere more then manifest and the same oft times both so farre spread and deeply rooted as the reforming of them vvas rather to be vvished then hoped for as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any vvho desire to follovve their holy steps in faith tovvards God and charitie tovvards men and effectuall desire of their ovvne edification The objections of the former sort follovv 1. OBIECTION There is danger of being seduced and misledd by the errours taught in the astemblies ANSWERE 1. We must not loose the benefite of many main trueths taught Matth 5. chap 23. for daunger of some few errours 2. Cor 11. 19. ◠Ioh. 4. 1. 3. Speciallie in lesser matters Let such read Parker of church policy lib. 1. c. 39 This vvere to feare the deuill more then to trust God 2. There vvere in the Ievvish church in Christs time and in divers of the Apostolicall churches aftervvards more greater errours taught then are in any or ail the churches of England of vvhich also there are not a fevv vvhich if their ministers did as fully and faithfully teach and practize all trueths as they keepe themselues carefully from errours might compare in this busines vvith any reformed church in Europe 3. This exception hath its vvayt against the hearing of Priests and Iesuites speciallie by the vveaker sort and lesseable to discerne of things that differ But not against many ministers of the church of England 2. OBIECTION He that in any thing pertakes with that church in vvhich sinnes knowne are suffred vnreformed pertakes in all the sinnes of that church as he that sweares by the Alter sweares by the offrings vpon it vvhich it sanctifies Matth. 23. 19. 20. ANSWERE I partake not in the sinnes of any how great or manifest soeuer the sinnes bee or hovv neer vnto me soeuer the persons bee except the same sinnes either be committed or remain vnreformed by my fault Othervvise Christ our Lord had been invvrapped in the guilt of a vvorld of sinnes in the Ievvish church vvith vvhich church he communicated in Gods ordinances liuing and dyeng a member therof If my brother sinne a scandelous sinne and I by just order make complaint thereof to the church I haue done my duty It appertaines to the church to excommunicate him if he repent not but not to me except Popelike I vvould make my selfe the church I am guitty of the euill in the common wealth familie for the redressing vvherof I do not my duty in my place vvhich if I do in the church as I can I am free from the sinnes done and suffred there vvhich sinnes and euils I can no more be said to suffer vvanting povver to reforme them then to suffer it to blovv or rain because I hinder it not But the proofe of the assertion from Matth. 13. is of admirable deuise Hovv doth the church sanctifie the sinne of the sinner as the Alter doth the offering of the offerer The Alter makes that to become actually an offering or holy gift vvhich before vvas not an offering actually but onely gold silver or other materiall So doth not the church make any mans sinne to become his sinne vvhich it vvas not before but onely suffers the sinne that vvas But to strain the strings of this imagined proportiō to make them meet and to suppose the church in a sence to be as the Alter yet this only follovves therevpon that as hee vvho partakes vvith the Alter in the vpholding of the offring partakes vvith the offring so he that partakes vvith the church in the vpholding of any euill hath his part in the euill also And this I graunt vvillingly but deny as a most vain imagination that euerie one that partakes vvith a church in things lavvfull joynes vvith it in vpholding the things vnlavvfull to be found in it Christ our Lord joyned vvith the Ievvish church in things lavvfull and yet vpheld nothing vnlavvfull in it 3. OBIECTION But this course of hearing vvill offend weak brethren not persuaded of the lawfullnes of it ANSWERE 1. It vvill offend more and many of them vveakere and that more greeuously if it be not performed Secondly It is an offence taken and not giuen seeing the thing is in it selfe good in its kinde commaunded by God and in that perticuler by men in authoritie and directlie tending to mine edification and not like vnto eating of flesh or drinking of vvine or the like things of indifferent nature and left to my free libertie to vse or not to vse And these are the principall objections vpon the former ground they vpon the latter follovv There is in the hands of manie a threatise published by a man of note containing certain reasons to proue it vnlawfull to heare or haue spirituall communion with the present ministerie of the church of England This hath been ansvvered but indeed sophisticallie and in passion Neither hath the ansvverer much regarded vvhat he said or vnsaid so he might gainsay his adversarie With that ansvvere vvas joyned an other directed to my selfe and the same doubled pretending to proue Publique communion vpon priuat but not pressing at all in the body of the discourse that consequence but proceeding vpō other grounds and in trueth consisting of a continued equivocation in the terms publique licence gouernment ministry and the like dravvne to another sence then either I intended them or then the matter in question vvill permit Whereas he that vvill refute another should religiously take hold to his aduersaries meaning and if in any perticuler it be not so plainly set dovvne should spell it as it vvere out of his vvords But it is no new thing euen for learned and godly men to take more then lavvfull libertie in dealing vvith them against vvhom they haue the aduantage of the times favouring them like the vvind on their backs But God for bidde I should follovv them heerin I vvill on the contrarie vse all plaines and simplicity as in the sight of God that so I may make the naked trueth appeare as it is to the christian readers eye vvhat in me lieth And for the treatice mentioned it must be obserued hovv both in the title and body of the booke the authour confounds as one hearing of and haueing spirituall communion vvith the ministery c. vvhich as it is true of such as stand in spirituall and politicall church-vnion vvith a church and the ministerie thereof vvho accordingly haue church communion in the publique acts and exercises of that church so is it not true of others vvhich are not members of not in ecclesiasticall vnion and combination
of daunger as they did for not falling downe as others did in the place ANSWERE 1. In the preaching of the truths of the Gospell no Idolatrous act is performed as there vvas 2. It must be knowne that approbation is properly in the heart and only the manifestation of approbation in outvvard gesture speech or writing Both the one and other are euill if the thing be euill But heare it must be considered that I may in cases do the same outvvard act vvhich others do and vvherein they manifest their approbation of idolatrie or other euill and yet I be free in trueth and deed from all such approbation and stain thereof The levves after Christs death and the taking avvay 2. Col. 15. and abolishing of the legall ordinances thereby circumcised their infants and frequentled the temple for purification and other mosaicall ceremonies as parts of Gods vvorshippe and still remaining of deuine institution Paul also circumcised Timothy entred the Temple for purification and yet did not approue any manner of vvay of the errour and euill in the Ievvish worshippers To come nearer home It is the custome in Popish countries that all that passe by a crosse must in honour of it leaue it on the right hand as they may by reason of the placeing of it comming or going Now if I ride vvith others that vvay I may do the thing that they doe and keep companie vvith them yet not honour the crosse as they do It is besides the former the manner that such as so passe a crosse should in further honour put of their hatt to the said crosse But if I do this also I plainly manifest an approbation of the superstition The reason of the difference is because I haue another iust cause to do the former-thing namely to keep on vvith my company but haue no just cause of the latter But now suppose that at the very place vvhere the crosse stands I meet vvith some friend or other to vvhom I ovve that eiuill respect of vncouering my head I may then do that lavvfully also vpon the former ground So if I had just and reasonnable cause either of comming or standing by the Magistrate to vvhom I ovve this ciuill honour vvhilst he is performing some act of Idolatrie in the streetes or els vvhere I might vpon the same ground go or stand vncouered by him vvithout just blame To applie these things to the objectiō moued seing no other cause could reasonnable be conceaued of the Kings commaunding such a thing or of their doing the thing at his commaundement saue the vvorshipping of the Idoll they in so doing could not haue escaped the just blame of Idolatrie But now I haue just causes more then one of my hearing and amongst the rest mine edification and therefore cannot be chalenged therein to approue of the ministers flate or standing Besides that as I formerly answered heare is no Idolatrous act performed 4. OBIECTION He that hears them preach hears them as Ministers of the church of England and as sent by the bishops and so in hearing them hears and receaue them that send them according to that of our Sauiour Luk. 9. 16. he that hears you hears me Iohn 13. 10. and he that despiseth you despiseth me and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent mee ANSWERE I graunt the former part of the objection and account the denying of it a point of familisme seing the officers of publique states in the executing of their offices are to be esteemed according to the publique lavves and orders of those states and not according to any vnder hand either course or intention by them selues or others They are heard as they preach and preach as ministers of the Bishops sending and of the parris hes receauing to vvhich they are sent by them And so I professe I heare them as the ministers of the Bb sending and of the Parishes sent to but not as my ministers either sending or sent to except I be of those parishes or at least in ecclesiasticall vnion vvith them Euery one vvhether of false a church or no church or excommunicated frō the church that hears me hears me as the Pastor of the church vvhich I serue but not as his Pastour I suppose nor in vvay of any his spirituall communion vvith mine office of Pastourshippe Secondly by hearing receauing there Christ meanes properly the hearking too beleuing and obeying the doctrine taught by the Apostles vvhich many despised vnto vvhom he apposeth the former that heard it Now the ministers in the parishes haue not the doctrines of the Gospell from the Bishops as they haue their office but from God in his vvord and so farre forth as a man hears that is hearkens too and receaues them by receauing it he so farre hearkes too receaues Christ. 5. OBIECTION Yet such as heare them haue communion which their office of ministery vvhat in them lyes ANSWERE That is they haue no communion at all vvith it if it lie not in them to haue any as it doth not If I hold vp my hand as high as I can I touch heauen vvith my finger vvhat in me lies Do I therefore at all touch it If such think to haue or that they haue any such communion it is their errour and ignorance but makes not the thing to be the more then if they thought not so 6. OBIECTION Is there then no communion at all betweene the teacher and taught vvhat profit the comes thereby such hearing ANSWERE The church officer feeds the flock and church ouer vvhich he is set Act. 20. 28 as the object of his ministery Such as come in being not in church-vnion therevvith heare him so doing And as a stander-by hearing me talke to or dispute vvith another though I speak not a vvord to him may reap as much and more fruit by my speche then he to vvhom I directed it so may and doth it often come to passe vvith him that hears the minister feed the flock vvhose minister he is though he be no part of it He may reap fruit by hearing him feed his flock or seing him minister baptisme to any member thereof Heare is communion only in the effects of the truthes taught It vvere vsurpation in any to pertake in a church priueledge vvhich the office of ministerie is that were not in a church-state first And so if hearing simply imported church-communion none but church-members might lavvfully heare 7. OBIECTION In the true church indeed is order that the church couenant go before church communion but not so in the false ANSWERE In the true church there may be vnlawfull church-communiō without a preceeding church-couenant as vvell as in the other to vvit if an act of communion properly passe betvveen the church and him that is no church-member as for example participation in the sacraments But hearing being not properly an act of communion cannot import communion necessarily vvith the one or other nor othervvise then according
and prosecute vvere rashe and rude at the least But now if the person can in respect of other good things by the vvord of God vtmost extent of charity be deemed to haue any the least interest in the grace of the gospell to censure such a one as an idolator theefe murderer and the like is against both charitie and godlines The Apostle 2. Cor. 6. teacheth vs to iudge and speak otherwise vvhere he calls such of the Christian Corinthians as by occasion of friends corruptions of times were drawne to partake in the Idoll feasts and tables of deuils of vvhich they had also before been by him most seriouslie admonished 1. Cor. 8. 10. Righteousnes light Christ beleeuers and the Temple of God opposed to vnbeleeuers vnrighteousnes c. As it is one thing to haue sinne which if we say we haue not we deceaue our selues the trueth is not in vs and another thing to be sinners in the Scriptures phrase 1. Iohn 1. Psal. 1. 5. Iohn 9. 3. 29. so all that practise through ignorance or infirmitie some acts lesse discernable of Idolatrie are not Idolators but such in vvhom it raigneth in action or disposition Lastlie If all in the church of England and of Mr. Iakobs church be idolators as the Apostle there speaks then are they all excluded from the kingdome of God 1. Cor. 6. 9. 10. and are vnder the curse and condemnation of the law vvhich censure the most rigid this vvay haue disclaimed as rash and vnjust Secondlie Whether Mr. Iakobs congregation be a true church or no We haue so judged and the Elders of the church at Amstelredam and the body of the church with them as we conceaue and so do vve judge still hauing sent you vvith our letter a copie of certain papers in which that matter is handled Thirdly Whether Mr. Staresmore and his wife are receaued and retained in our churches by that couenant which they made with God in Mr. Iakobs church or whether they haue renounced it as false and made an other {reversed} Answere Their receauing heare was only by that couenant made with God and the church there continued and none otherwise the persons hauing testimonie and dismission from the church there and so were in the vertue of the same couenaut by vs commended and conueyed to that other church in Amstelredam Fourthly To your fourth demaund about your carriage towards your Teacher other brethren renouncing communion with you it is both vnseasonable now to answere and difficult for vs who are ignorant of such circumstances and maners of cariage by them as by which offences are much agreeuated or extennated Fifthly Whether their pretence of hauing the trueth be sufficient to make them the church and to warrant their aboue mentioned dealing {reversed}â—Š Answere Neither the pretence of hauing nor the hauing of the truth indeed makes the church in the sence in hand no more then the hauing some other perticuler commendable vertue by some makes them the church excluding them that want its As Reuelat. 2. and 3. The visible and ministeriall church is the whole body euery member thereof Not some parts Act. 20. 1. Cor. 14. 23. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. of which some of these members haue more comelines and some lesse The church is a state spirituall and politicall not personall error therefore or other sinne makes any cease to be a member therof And if the greater number be members still though inerrour the smaller cannot be the body Besides if some particuler sinne or errour make the greatest part not to be members then much more two or three perticulers Which therevpon the church might not censure for any errour or other sinne to vvit if they vvere not members Lastly this confirms that popish and presumptuous ground that the church cannot erre Sixtly Whether women haue voyces vvith men in the judgments of the churchs Answere The Apostle teacheth plainlie the contrarie 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 14. and though he speak perticularlie of propheâ—ing and teaching yet layes he downe a more generall rule forbidding all such speaking as in vvhich authoritie is vsed that is vsurped ouer the man which is done speciallie in iudgements And if a woman may not so much as moue a question in the church for her instruction hov much lesse may she giue a voyce or vtter a reproofe for censure And this answere vve return at the length brethren to your letter and demands therewith our louing salutations in the Lord. In vvhom vvishing your peace and vvellfare we rest Your louing brethren Iohn Robinsz and church with him Leyden 5. April 1624. FINIS