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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93887	Zerubbabel to Sanballat and Tobiah: or, The first part of the duply to M.S. alias Two brethren. By Adam Steuart. Whereunto is added, the judgement of the reformed churches of France, Switzerland, Geneva, &c. concerning independants, who condemne them with an unanimous consent. Published by David Steuart. March 17. 1644. Imprimatur Ja: Cranford.; Duply to M.S. alias Two brethren. Part 1	Steuart, Adam.; Steuart, David, fl. 1644.	1645 (1645)	Wing S5494; Thomason E274_14; ESTC R209896	100,836	110

Zerubbabel to Sanballat and Tobiah OR The First Part of the DVPLY TO M.S. alias Two Brethren BY ADAM STEVART Whereunto is added The Iudgement of the Reformed Churches of France Switzerland Geneva c. Concerning INDEPENDANTS who condemne them with an unanimous consent Published by DAVID STEUART EZRA 4.1 2 3. The Adversaries of Judah came to Zerubbabel and to the chiefe of the fathers and said unto them Let us build with you for we seek your God as ye do and we do sacrifice unto him since the dayes of Esarhaddon king of Assur which brought us up hither But Zerubbabel and Jeshua and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel said unto them You have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God but we our selves together will build unto the Lord God of Israel March 17. 1644. Imprimatur JA CRANFORD London Printed for Iohn Field and are to be sold at his house upon Addle-hill neer Baynards-Castle 1645. To their EXCELLENCIES The Lord William Boreel Lord of Duynbeck chiefe Syndicke and Counceller of Amsterdam The Lord John de Reede Lord of Reinswond Deputy in Ordinary in the Assembly of the States Generall of the united Provinces for the Province of Utrecht The Lord Albert Joachimi Lord of Oostende in Oedekenskercke Secretary for the Republick of Ter-Goes Lords Ambassadours of the High and Mighty Lords the States Generall of the united Provinces of the Netherlands THe World happily will conceive that Personages so Noble and Eminent for Place and Employment are much too High to be solicited to undertake for or be God-Fathers to a Childe of so mean a Birth and quality as is this that now presents it self unto Your Excellencies for that purpose Every one will be ready to say that I in making choice of Your Honourable Names for Protection of this Treatise have erected too stately and augustuous a Portall for so low and mean a Building as mine is It may not be denied but that such a construction may very justly be made of my enterprise if either the Authors inferior quality and condition or the frame and structure of his work should be strictly eyed and regarded But on the other side if the matter and end of it be well taken into consideration scarce any man can think other then that it is most worthy Your Patronage as that that hath no other aime save only the glory of God the Edification of the Church the Vindication of the Truth against the illusions of Sectaries and Novelists and the reduction to the bosome of the Church of such as are strayed from it Now what can there be more sutable and fitting for Children and Servants of the great God such as as You are then that which makes for the advancement of his Glory What can there be more proper for such as are Members yea Nursing-Fathers of the Church then that which tends to the gathering and Uniting together of the Members of her Body What can there be more worthy such Eminent Personages professing the true Religion then that which is for the defence of the truth of such opinions as are Orthodox What can there be more corresponding with the duty of Chistian Magistrates then to that which is intended for the reduction of such as are strayed to the Sheepfold of the great Shepherd of our Souls and that They should assist the Work by their Politicall Authority whilst the Church contributes which is all she can do her best Reasons for their conviction I have further Grounds and Motives for the Dedication of this Treatise to Your Excellencies to wit For that You represent here the Persons of the High and Mighty States of the United Provinces some of whose Territories and Estates are infected with this Venome Howbeit God be thanked it gaines not ground so fast there as here nor the Gangreen proves hitherto so dangerous Concerns it not us therefore being infested with the same Malady and Disease the one as the other that we should testifie our mutuall sense and apprehension thereof and that we should make it appear to all the World that however we are divided in Body we are yet notwithstanding strongly united in Heart as also in an Harmony of Opinions You labour likewise how You may Establish here a Peace both in Church and State and this Treatise is a good Means conducing to the former of these You endevour to procure a Generall Councell and this Treatise maintaines the equity and proves the necessity of it But yet there is one Reason more which more particularly obliges me to present this Treatise to Your Excellencies and it is such as I may not at any hand passe over without incurring the Crime of highest Ingratitude Which is Most Excellent Lords That great Honour Your Famous University of Leyden the very Athens of our Age hath put upon me in vouchsafing me so honorable a Call to be one of its Members Truly to this Head give me leave to say I cannot sufficiently admire Your great love to good Letters and Your unparallel'd care for the advancing of them so as it seems that in Your Provinces and in them alone they flourish and shew themselves in their perfect Lustre and Beauty For this purpose You from time to time make choice and Election of the most Famous men of all Europe Notwithstanding that You have very able men of your own as though You meant to gather into one Place all the most radiant Stars in the Firmament so as You despoil all other Kingdoms of the fairest flowers of their Crowns and with a kinde of sweet violence do as it were draw their Eyes out of their Heads and so quite darken and eclipse their Lustre and shine I say not this that I would be thought to rank my self in the number of those Great and Eminent Personages I know well that there are some Stars that shine by their own light That there are others again that shew not themselves but by a borrowed light But I will not enlarge my discourse upon Your Praises nor undertake to describe at large Your Heroick Vertues for this is not the place for it and it hath already been done by far better Pens then mine is I should by such an untertaking fear to sully the brightnesse of their Lustre and to draw a cloud over their Orient and vivid Colours And if I should go about it I should at the same time resolve to imitate that Excellent Painter who when he had done all that his Art enabled him to do for the drawing of an exquisite Pourtaicture and had set out its beauty with the most lively colours he could devise drew a curtain over it mistrusting the goodnesse of his Workmanship and intimating thereby that there was much more to be conceived of the Peece then he was able to expresse Notwithstanding I cannot tell how to contain my self but I must take notice of Your great Actions and Your many Noble Atchievements by Arms How

the lesser societies owe respect and depend upon the Greater as our Practise witnesses with us The Example of the Synod of Dordrecht where we had our Deputies is a famous monument of the Blessing God powers out upon Generall Assemblies We may not deny notwithstanding that the circumstances of Times and Interests of the Princes with whom the Arke of God rests admit not evermore such Meetings But in those Kingdomes that enjoy such a precious liberty it should be a most unthankefull Felony against God that men should voluntarily when there is no necessity at all deprive themselves of such an estimable Advantage Whilst as those that are in possession hereof are scrupulous to serve themselves of the occasion those that have a Restraint upon them desire this happinesse exceedingly With what joy thinke you doe the Churches of France long after the happinesse to see themselves once assembled in a Nationall Synod according to the Grant they have obtained to this purpose this yeare It must be confessed notwithstanding that some Councels a man may meet with where he shall find fewer Defenders of the Truth then Champions for Errour But we speak not but of those where the Spirit of God and his Word hold the rather and of such as use not to establish any thing contrary to those lights and perswasions which the same Spirit and the same Word doe frame within the hearts of all the Faithfull Let us therefore stay the time till God letting out the raynes to a Persecution in his just indignation deprive us of the meanes of Assemblies Colloques and Synods But as long as his good Providence grants us this Priviledge let us not make our selves unworthy of so rare an Effect of his Bounty Sir This is that which I had to say unto you from an unanimous consent of all my Collegues We pray God with all our hearts that he will looke upon Sion in much pitty that he will rouze up his Iealousie and those yearning compassionate Bowells wherewith he uses to be moved towards his Churches and that he will be pleased speedily to give us occasion to glorifie his Holy Name in your deliverance Amen Your thrice humble servant Morus Geneva the 18. of Sept. 1644. Extraict des Actes du Synode National des Eglises Reformeès de France assemblè par permission du Roy a Charanton l'an 1644 le 26 Decembre iours suivans Envoye de Paris 17 27 Ianvier 1645 4. a D. B. SVR ce qui a esté rapporté par quelques Deputèz des Provinces Maritimes que plusieurs venans de pays estrange qui s'appellent Independans parcequ'ils enseignent que chaque Eglise Particuliere se doibt gouverner par ses Propres Loix sans aucune Dependance de personne es Matieres Ecclesiastiques sans obligation a recognoistre l'authorité des Colloques Synodes pour son regime conduicte establissent leur demeure en ce Royaume y pourroyent cy apres causer de grands inconveniens s'il n'y estoit de bonne heure pourveu La Compagnie craignant que la contagion de ce venin gaignant Insensiblement ne iette la confusion le desordre entre nous iugeant la dicte Secte des Independans non seulement prejudiciable a l'Eglise de Dieu entant qu'elle tache d'y introduire la confusion ouvrant la porte a toutes sortes de singularitès extravagances ostant tout moyens dy apporter remede mais aussy tres dangereuse a l'estat ou si'elle avoit lieu il se pourroit former autant de Religions qu'il y a de Paroisses ou Assemblées Particulieres enioint a toutes les Provinces specialement aux Maritimes de prendre garde que le mal ne prenne pied es Eglises de ce Royaume afin que la paix l'uniformité tant en la Religion qu'en la Discipline y soyen inviolablement entretenues que rien ne s'introduise parmy nous qui puisse alterer en aucune maniere le service qui est deû a leur Majestez Garrissole Moderateur Basnage Adjoynt Blondel Coq Secretaires An Extract of the Acts of the Nationall Synod of the Reformed Churches of France assembled by the Kings permission at Charantoun Anno 1644. 26. Decemb. and daies following VPon what hath been reported by the Commissioners of the Matitime Provinces that divers comming from forraign countries and who goe under the name of Independents because they teach that every particular Congregation ought to be governed by its owne particular Lawes without any depending of any in Ecclesiasticall matters and without any obligation to acknowledge the Authority of Colloques or Classes and Synods for its government and conduct settling their abode in this Kingdome and hereafter they might cause here amongst us many great inconveniences if in due time there were not order taken the Assembly fearing least the contagion of this poyson gaining ground insensibly should throw trouble and disorder amongst us and judging the said Sect of Independents to be not only prejudiciall to the Church of God in so far that it endeavours to bring in Confusion opening a Gate to all kind of Singularities and Extravagancies and taking away all meanes of any remedy to the evill but also most dangerous to the State where if it had place there might as many Religions set up as there be Parishes or particular Congregations doth enjoyn to all the Provinces and particularly to the Maritimes to take heed that the evill take no foot in the Churches of this Kingdom to the end that peace and Uniformity aswell in Religion as in Discipline may be inviolably preserved and that nothing be brought in amongst us which may alter in any kind the service due unto their Majesties Garrissole Moderator Basnage Adjoynt Blondel and Coq Secretaries Sentiment de l'Eglise de France touchant l'Episcopat l'Independance extraict d'une Letttre escrite a Mr. Buchanan par quelques Pasteurs 1 NOs Eglises ont tousjours creu constanment enseignè que l'Ordre des Evesques n'est nullement de droit divin 2. Si quelques Docteurs Protestants on t employè ce terme de Divin c'est avec la mesme Improprieté le mesme abus de Language que quelques Anciens ont appellê Diuini Canones les Canons que leurs pres avoient faits qu'ils pouvoient changer ou abroger 3. Solon l'Escriture Saincte Prestre Evesque designent une mesme chargê mais a divers esgards l'un de ces noms qui semble derivé de l'age denote la gravitè convenable aux Ministres de Iesus Christ l'autre exprime leur office qui est de veiller sur le troupeau qui leur est commis 4. Il est clair comme le jour que selon l'Eseriture Prestre Evesque designent une mesme charge car il y avoit Plusieurs Evesques en une mesme ville Philippiens 1. Et de mesmes personnes sont qualifiee

in a Rhetoricall and Oratorious way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us all into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them Hee answereth that he cannot answer since here is no sence And wherefore I pray Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words or from us Truly As the word agree or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar called Zeugma be understood to be joyned with all those words so is the point of Interrogation But it should bee at the end as it is in the Observations And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma it is either the Printers over-sight or mine But to say that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty who can believe him It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Protestants who refute Brownists and Anabaptists should say we Brownists and Anabaptists it is but his foolery which yet we could easily endure if he answered the Question Which since he cannot do I take it for granted that in this they have not proceeded well or at least not so well as they might If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages or shifts rather as easily I might up and down in his and C.C. Books I should answer nothing at all as this Gentleman does But good men know that when ever I doubt of sence in them what ever I do I deale ingenuously with them and consult with sundry to find out their meaning and when neither others nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings I passe it over in silence not reproving that which I understand not or that cannot be understood But if others understood it it is a great shame for this great Divine to have been so dull 7. Consid A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr be published in the name of the Five Ministers or of all those also or a part of those whom they pretend to hold their Tenets If in the name of you Five only whether ye Five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their Faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end he would not answer but turnes them over unto me and will have mee to answer To which therefore I doe answer 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit 2. I answer directly 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie I have done it of my selfe and have done it by Authority since I have a Licence granted by him that by Authority Licenceth Books 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches and specially of that of Scotland France and the Netherlands to whose Judgement and Authoritative power in Synods I acknowledge my Booke to be subject so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection but the Five Ministers are as Independent as I am Dependent as imperious as I am subject and odedient to my Superiours If they will answer as I we shall no more contest They have gained me to them if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ Besides this These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary neither Independent Brownist Anabaptist Arminian c. condemned or rejected by the Church of England or any other well Reformed Church 2. He is no minister much lesse an Independent Minister 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated or intolerable Religion as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches as they have 5. If he had done so he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith and answer all those who would ask for an account thereof 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation yet are you bound to answer 1. M.S. takes upon him to answer but answereth not as we shall God willing heare His first answer is It is no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his Confession of faith But to what Question I pray answereth this I grant you this but answer you to my Question In whose name c. His second Answ The Confession of Faith in Doctrine that is in all the best Reformed Churches is theirs A.S. As wide as before the Question is not of the Confession of Faith but about the Apologie in whose name it is published c. 2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie we have pure Discipline which I acknowledge to be true 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government wee had it when Bishops prevailed howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie 3. There is no Confession of Faith if it be taken strictly but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie but we cannot know of them in whose name I am not angry at their Confession of Faith as M.S. saith but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity neither is it true that I have opened other mens mouthes but God Efficiently and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you Turdue sibi malum cacat and yee must be content to drink as ye have brewed for your selves 3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no Authority from men to Apologize for the truth The Scripture they Apologized for bore them out A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer that they Apologize only for Scripture and can produce no Christian Church that they Apologize for 2. Tertull. Justin Martyr and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time and acknowledged themselves and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods and they were as Dependent upon them as ye are Independent 3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men yet were they able sure to tell from time to time in whose Names they did Apologize M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more viz. to shew their Reasons therefore the less to shew their Opinion A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question 2. But the Parliament alloweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby separated from the Generall Assembly 3 It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Reformed Protestant Churches when they are sitting in qualitie of Members of the Assembly and against the Opinion of the most part of the

being presupposed I put this Conclusion All Persons in a Church or the whole Collective Body thereof have not Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction 1. They have not the power to exercise it 1. Because we read no such thing in Scripture viz. that ever God committed the Government of the Church to every idle Fellow that is a member thereof 2. Because it is contrary to the generall Ordinance of God 1 Tim. 3. that all Church-Officers be examined and tryed before their Admission And to the practise of the Old Testament in the religion of the Levites that served five yeares in their Apprenticeship 3. Because every particular member of the Church hath not the Ability to Iudge or Rule because of his ignorance and want of learning for every one in the Church cannot be learned for some there be that needs are spirituall some that be carnall some Babes in Christ some men some have need of milke some of meat 1 Cor. 3.1 2 3. 4. Because of their imprudence for some of the vulgar are somewhat precipitate and rash in the examination of matters others very slow in their judgement some in their speech and some in all which is not convenient in so grave matters in Iudging the Iudgements of the Lord. 5. Because some are vicious and culpable of the faults or crimes that are to be Iudged and condemned in others and therefore are not fit Iudges to Iudge them 6. Many in the Congregation may be friends Kinsmen or allyed with the party that is to be Iudged and so partiall wherefore some of the Congregation at the least in that case are to be excluded and by Consequence the simple Title of Christianity and profession thereof or to be a member of the Church gives not all christians this right but some other thing 7. If every one of the Church may Iudge or exercise Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction then women also whom Saint Paul commands to hold their peace in the Church 1 Cor. 14.34 and to be subject in obedience without Iurisdiction 8. All distracted men and babes should have power to Iudge and so those that are without Iudgment shold Iudge since they are members of the Church It may be answered that they admit not babes but those only that are in age and apparently regenerated Inst But then every member of the Church hath power to Iudge but men distracted are in age Ergo they have power to Iudge It may be answered that they understand that those only that are in age and have the use of reason should be admitted Inst 1. But when hath a man the use of Reason how shal they define that It is commonly defined by Philosophers and others the age of seven yeares which will make no very able Ecelesiasticall Senator here the Scripture is desicient they will admit nothing in Discipline but that which is commanded by Christ 2. What if a man in his old age begin to dote they may answer that then he is excluded because reason failes him Inst Then he must be declared not sitting which may breed division Jnst Item a man may be in age and yet little skilled in Divinity for to Iudge in matter of Heresie and be more vitious then when he was a childe And if a man be Iudged by babes children fooles and doting old men it is to be feared especially if the Iudged be rich that the Iudgement be the cause rather of division then concord so this Discipline being established all Schismes may break forth controversies and contentions They may answer that they establish these that are really or apparently in judgement of charity Saints as it may be collected from the Rom. c. 1.2 1 Cor. 1. Eph. 1. Phil. in the beginning of the chapters Reply But every particular man in every particular Congregation of the Visible Church whereof we only dispute is not nor can in speaking morally as falleth out ordinarily be a Saint 1. Because the Church is compared to a Ground whereof one part is by the way side the other stony another thorny another good To a Ground wherin growes Wheat and Tares To a Draw-Net receiving good and bad fishes Mat. 13. to a Society of wise and foolish Virgins Mat. 25. And to a House wherein there are Vessels to honour and dishonour There must be Offences or slanders saies Christ Math. 18.7 2. Howbeit they were all Saints yet should it not follow thereupon that they are all learned prudent judicious and endowed with other gifts to judge either in matters of Doctrine in Creating of Ministers and in Excommunicating of Hereticks or of Discipline which sometime requires some knowledge of the Civill law as in Cases of Matrimonie c. As for the Passages of St. Paul 1. I deny that he calls all the Members of the Church Saints Formally but the whole Body of the Church is so called or denominated because of the holinesse which is really or apparently inherent in some Members or parts thereof which denominates the whole Body as when a man is said to see because of the sight which is not inherent in all the parts of his Body but only in his Eye or wise for his wisdome which is inherent in his Soule alone 2. If it were otherwise the Apostle should have written untruths in these Texts for Rom. 16.17 18. he sayes Now I beseech you Brethren marke them which cause divisions and offences c. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly and 1 Cor. 5. It is known that the Incestuous man was not excommunicated Some of them were also Schismaticks saying that they were of Christ of Paul of Apolloes And what the Galathians were the whole Epistle testifies so that according to our Brethrens grounds there was no visible Church here and nothing could have been judged 3. It is not sanctification or holinesse of life but Politicall or Ecclesiasticall prudence that furnisheth their Abilities for 1. Sanctification is Gratia gratum faciens one sort of Grace or gift of the Spirit that renders us gracious or makes us acceptable to God But the facultie of Ruling and exercising of Jurisdiction in the Church is Gratia gratis data given gratiously only but makes us not gracious or acceptable to God as the Gift of Prophecie of Tongues Intepretation c. 2. The first is given us principally for our own benefit the other principally for other mens benefit and therfore 3. the first is for to save a man himself the second to save others when peradventure he may be damned himselfe as we see in Judas who had the grace of Prophecie whereby he saved others but damned himselfe and did preach salvation to others beleeving but damnation to himselfe unbeleeving 4. The first makes one a good Christian the other a good Citizen in the exteriour Societie of the Church alone yea 5. I may boldly say that a man may be a good Preacher or Prophet or Ruler in the Church and an ill Christian if hee preach

the truth and with edification or rule well and beleeve not which may bee done by a very wicked man Mat. 7.19 20 21 22 23. and another may be a good man but an ill Preacher Prophet or Ruler if he have sanctifying grace and have not so great abilities to preach or to rule as an other who perchance is an Atheist or if he be somewhat negligent in the exercise of his charge The Apostle sayes not that all that were in their Churches were Saints either really or appearingly but to all the Saints 4. It is probable also and some of them grant it that all the Members of the Church in those texts of Scripture are called Saints or holy 1. because of the holiness of the Covenant 2. Or holy because of the holy Confession 3. Or holy Profession 4. Or of the holy Sacraments of the holy Covenant wherunto they were partakers or finally because of their externall Vocation to salvation But all this makes them not learned prudent judicious nor furnishes them with other abilities which are needfull for the exercise of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction 5. But put the case that we should grant them all this yet can they not escape thus saying that in so doing they admit not all those that are actually received in the Church as her Children and members to the exercise of Ecclesiastical Discipline but the lesser part for there are more ignorant then learned and ill men then good in the Church or at least that have not the gifts required therunto and so in rejecting they are forced to admit some Election and establish some representative Church by the admission of some and the exclusion of others so that in this point they differ not from us in not admitting a Representative Church but in admitting a greater and more Vast Representatative Church then we and the members thereof of lesse Abilities 6. Hence it follows that men have not right to exercise Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction in qualitie of Christians professing Christ since women and others have it not but in some other consideration which we desire to know viz. whether it be not for their Abilitie and so it is not to be found in all 7. This rejection of some yea of the greater part of the Church as women children old men ignorants Vitious men and others that have not the abilitie to judge as all unholy and prophane men and admission of others that are the lesser part as sanctified men in whom only consists the Church is capable to breed Divisions in their Church if the people have power to judge For accordingly they will judge in favour of themselves to be admitted and so procure a schisme and quarrell for the taking away whereof the Government accordingly is established let them take it into consideration how hard it is for any man yea for the most part of the Church to be declared ignorant imprudent young of an unripe judgement and doting c. and to the Church and see the lesse part which pretends to be the only Church declared apt and fit to their owne exclusion and what thereupon may ensue in a Democraticall Government upon such filthy and infamous aspersions in checking the greater part as prophane it may peradventure stirre up a bellum servile more dangerous to the Church then that amongst the Romans 8. The Doctrine that destroyes Gods holy Ordinance viz. the Distinction which he has put betwixt the Rulers of the Church and them that are ruled and are to obey cannot be admitted as our Brethren will confesse But the Doctrine that gives to every Member of the Church power and administration of Jurisdiction in ruling and governing the Church is such For God hath ordained some to rule and others to obey Rom. 12.8 1 Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1 Thess 5.12 1 Tim. 5.17 Heb. 13.17 Obey them that rule over you and submit your selves unto them Now then if some be Rulers and others to obey we cannot all be Rulers as it appeares 1. Cor. 12.28 29. And God hath set some in the Church Apostles and Governments c. Are all Apostles c Where he sayes that one gift is not given to every Member of the Church Note that he speaks here of those gifts or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that are called gratia gratis data not for our own but for other mens use Ergo this order cannot be admitted 9. No confused Discipline or government of Gods Church can be ordained by God for God is not the God of Confusion 1. Cor. 14.33 But that wherein every one of the people hath Jurisdiction or juridicall power is a confused Discipline or government Ergo It cannot be ordained by God The Major will be granted since it is Gods word The Minor is evident For I put the case that in a Church composed of some 20000 persons there be some point of Doctrine to be decided what disorder and confusion should it not breed if every one of that huge multitude yea every illiterate and idle fellow should come and propound his idle thoughts By what wisdome of man could this many-headed beast be reduced to order It may be answered that they should be wise But we reply they are not nor can that be hoped or expected in this life nay doe any beleeve it either Donatists or Anabaptists and howbeit they were all wise to salvation yet followes it not that they should all be wise for Government and Examination of all Church Officers 10. The exercise of the Discipline of the Church is morally possible for God will not that his Church be governed by an order that is impossible But this Democraticall and Plebeian exercise of Discipline is not morally possible for if there were 20. or 30. points to be judged by such a huge multitude certainly they could not easily discusse and judge every point For if every one of 20000 should give his advise and peradventure be interrupted by some and then begin his discourse againe which ordinarily falls out amongst rude people when should the Examen and discussion of the businesse be ended Grant to every one of them but halfe an houre whereas I warrant you some should take halfe a day or halfe a yeare and say little to the purpose and yet make 〈…〉 of one businesse onely employing 12. hours a day counting the Lords day also should amount to two yeares and foure moneths or thereabouts so that here there is too much delay for a businesse should scarce ever be judged or ended what should become of all other businesse What if in this one question there should fall out 20. or 30. Incidents whereof every one should take up as much time as the principall Question which quicke witted men may easily procure when then should a Question be ended It may be answered that there may be some order taken for deliberating and consulting which may hinder this as at Rome where there were 1000. Senators and in Paris where at the Parliament there are 200. Senators