they receiued true Baptisme The argument followeth for baptisme is an engraffing into the true Christ Rom. chap. 6.3 The Antecedent is manifest in M. Penries iudgement for he will not haue them to offer themselues againe to baptisme therefore he is either a Catabaptist or els there was and is euen in his iudgement true baptisme in the popish Church 2 They which were circumcised in the time of Ieroboam and Caiphas were accompted true circumcised persons although at that time the state of the Church was almost altogether peruerted and corrupted therefore such as were and are baptized in the popish Church c. This argument is vsed of the greatest learned men of the religion and is allowed of all the reformed Churches 3 Caluine and Beza are resolute for this Calu. Ion chap 1. v. 16. Ezech 16. v. 20. Epist 103. and 104. Beza Confess chap. 4. Art 49. and chap 7. Art 11. Epist 10. and 81. Viretus hath these words Baptismum qui à sacerdotibus Papisticis collatus est c. that is we do allow popish Baptisme albeit we condemne the vaine and superstitious ceremonies which are vsed in it Tract de cōmun fid cum Papist cer pag. 64. Of this iudgement are all learned men and all reformed Churches None dissent but Catabaptists Anabaptists M. Penry and the rest of the fantasticall order CHAP. 21 THERE HATH BENE AND may be true Baptisme out of the Church THe Donatists thought otherwise in Augustines time but they are notably cōfuted by Augustine in his bookes de baptis contra Don. 2 True Circumcision was amongst the Edomites 3 They which were baptized out of the Church by heretikes neither were nor might be rebaptized therefore they receiued true baptisme The Antecedent is manifest for it is a rule in Diuinitie and receiued of all learned men Baptizati ab haereticis non sunt rebaptizandi that is they which are baptized of heretickes are not to be rebaptized The reasons are Where the essentiall forme of baptisme is obserued non haereticus sed haeretici manu Christus baptizat that is not the hereticke but Christ doth baptize by the hand of the hereticke Aug. passim de bapt cōt Don. It is not the baptisme of hereticks or schismaticks but of God the Church wheresoeuer it be found and whithersoeuer translated Aug. de bapt contra Don. lib. 1. cap. 14. The heresie is theirs the errour is theirs c. but baptisme which is Christes must not be accompted theirs Aug. de baptis contra Don. lib. 3. cap. 11. Ciprian was of an other iudgemēt in the Church of Carthage but hee was condemned for that errour by the best Churches in that age 4. The Arke of the testament which was taken of the Philistims lost not the vertue of Sanctification 1. Sam. 4. Dagon can teach vs that 5 Si foris nemo potest c. that is if no mā can haue any thing which is Christs out of the Church neither can any man haue any thing which is the deuils within the Church Aug. de bapt contr Don. lib. 4. cap. 7. 6 Non itaque ideo non sunt sacramenta Christi Ecclesiae c. that is they are not therefore not the Sacraments of Christ and the Church because heretikes and wicked men do vnlawfully vse them They that is the heretikes c. are to be amended or punished but the Sacraments are to bee acknowledged and reuerently esteemed of c. Question How doe heretikes possesse baptisme Answere Baptismum legitimum habent sed non legitimè habent that is heretikes haue lawful baptisme but they haue it not lawfully Aug. de Bapt. cont Don. lib. 5. cap. 7. Neque licitè foris habetur tamē habetur sic illicitè for is datur sed tamen datur that is Baptisme is not had lawfully out of the Church notwithstanding it is had In like sort it is giuē out of the church vnlawfully notwithstanding it is giuen Aug. de Bap. contra Don. lib. 6. ca. 15. If any shall aske whether it be lawfull to offer our infants to baptisme out of the Church c. because all learned men except the Donatists c. in Augustines time and M. Penry and his worthie disciples in our time haue and doe affirme that true baptisme hath bene and may be out of the Church My answere is negatiue as Augustines was I referre the learned reader to his writings contra Cresc gram lib. 1. cap. 23. and de Bapt. contra Don. lib. 1. cap. 4. CHAP. 22. I. Penry THAT NO POPISH Priest is a Minister EVerie Minister must bee at the least by profession a member of the true Church No Popish Priest is by profession a member of the true Church Therefore no Popish Priest is a minister Euery minister hath an office within the body of the Church No popish priest hath an office within the body of the Church Therfore no popish priest is a minister The propositions or first part of both these reasons are set down euidently and plainly by the wisdome of God in these words For as we haue many members in one body and all members haue not one office so we being many are one body in Christ and euery one anothers members seeing then that we haue gifts that are diuers c. The place sheweth cleerely that whosoeuer is not a member is not of the bodie if not of the bodie then no minister Againe whosoeuer is no member he hath no office in the bodie if no office no minister He that should obiect that in this place is ment a member of the bodie by election in the secrete counsell of God and not in the acknowledgement of the Church by profession would not deserue the answering Because it is vocation and not election that maketh such a member in the Church as may haue an office therein of which sort the Apostle speaketh in this place By vocation I meane that whereof the holy Ghost speaketh where it is sayde Many are called but fewe are chosen neither can any man denie him to be a member of the Church which by outward profession submitteth himselfe vnto true religion and such are the members whereof the Apostle speaketh namely such as are members in the iudgement of the Church Iudas was a member in the iudgement of the Church though not belonging to election A further proofe of the propositions you shall find 1. Cor. 12.26.28 Hee was no priest in the olde Testament that was not a Iewe by profession yea and of the line of Aaron too and shall he be accounted a minister among vs that is a strāger from the profession of the trueth and a professed Idolater Ishmael and Esau were circumcised and the sonnes of those fathers vnto whome the couenant was made Euen I will bee thy God and the God of thy seed They and their posterities fell from true religion well admit that the profanation of circumcision had still continued in their houses yet a man supplying
the place of a priest among them was no priest in deed though he ten thousand times profaned circumcision would brag neuer so often that he worshipped after his Idolatrous maner no other God but the God of his father Abraham and sware onely by the feare of his father Isaac The reason hereof is because that euery priest vnder the law must be an Israelite by profession that is a member of the true Church neither could any of the godly assure themselues that an Edomitish priest admistred true circumcision according to the substance Now I reckon of a popish priest no otherwise thē I would haue done of an Ismaelitish or Edomitish circumciser the profanation of that seale of the couenant still continuing in mount Seir. R. Some Your Maior propositions in your two first arguments are viz. Euery Minister must bee at the least by profession a member of the true Church And euery Minister hath an office within the body of the Church My answere is that your Maior propositions and the proofe of them out of the 12. to the Rom. are true if you giue them this sense viz. that euery lawfull and good Minister of God is by prosession a member and hath an office within the body of the sound Church If you vnderstand your Maior propositions otherwise I deny them my reason is Excommunicated heretiques which administer true baptisme out of the Church had a calling though a faultie one and yet these heretiques neither were mēbers nor had any office in the true Church That Iudas was a vessel of wrath and yet an Apostle and a member of the Church in the iudgement of the Church I make no question The case of many hypocrites hath may be such for reprobation and ministerie though not for Apostleship That which I like of in this Treatise of yours I will either alow by some short speach or else passe ouer with silence Cauiling and wrangling become not such as professe and loue the Religion If none may be a Minister in Gods Church by Gods order but such as are members that is engraffed into Gods Church it is a good consequent that none in the time of the Law might be a Leuiticall Priest which was vncircumcised Which point you dealt very strāgly in before It is true that none might be a Leuiticall priest which was not a Iewe by profession and of the line of Aaron but yet not euery one of Aarons line if he were vnfit for that holy functiō might be admitted to the Leuiticall priesthood as you gaue out before very absurdly No popish Priest as hee is a popish Priest is accompted a Minister in our Church If you thinke otherwise you thinke amisse for I can assure you that none which haue bene popish Priestes either did or doe administer in our Church without the allowance of our Church I confesse they receiue not imposition of handes againe either in our Church or in other reformed Churches If Circumcision was amongst the Ismaelites and Edomites as you write and I affirme then a Sacrament was amongst them I pray you remember this The Priestes of Idumea I graunt were not Priestes in deede that is they were not lawfull and good Ministers of God for they had no lawfull calling yet they had a calling though a faultie one Otherwise Circumcision administred by them had bene no Sacrament That which decemeth you is that you do not distinguish betweene a lawfull and good Minister of God and a Minister betweene a lawfull calling and a calling c. I. Penry Whereas in the assumption or second part of both the reasons I deny popish Priests to be members of the Church my meaning is not that there are none of the elect within the body of Popery whom the Lord may cal in his good time For I woulde not deny this vnto Mahometisme or that there are not left in Popery certaine rubishes steps of true Religion for this difference I make betwene them and other Infidels though the Iewes also may claime this vnto themselues But I meane that the Popish religion is such a religion as whosoeuer liueth dieth in the profession thereof he liueth and dieth out of the Church where saluation is not possibly to be had for any thing that is made knowen vnto man Whence it necessarily foloweth that in Popery there is no Church If it be obiected that the Papists are within the Couenant inasmuch as long since they professed the trueth Mine answere will be that Popery was neuer the trueth as yet that no Papist in that hee was a Papist euer professed the trueth and that God made no Couenant with professed Idolaters as all Papists are R. Some Your Minor propositions in your two first arguments are viz. No popish priest is by profession a mēber of the church And No popish priest hath an office within the bodie of the Church My answer is If by church in your Minor propositiōs you meane a sound Church I grant that no popish priest as he is a popish priest and a professed papist is either a member by profession or hath an office within the bodie of the Church If by Church you meane an vnsound Church My answer is that a popish priest is a member hath an office within the body of the church My reason is the popish church is a church though an vnsound church For proofe of this I haue vsed diuerse reasons in this Treatise I referre you to them If they wil not downe with you you must confute the seuerall writings of Caluine in his Institutions Commentaries and Epistles of other famous men and condemne the iudgement of all the reformed churches If your stomacke serue you you haue matter inough to work on more thē you were wel aware of That steps of true Religion remaine in the Popish Church it is manifest for God preserued in that Church verbum suum baptismum That is his Word and Baptisme Beza in Annot. Matt. 23.2 Yea we of the Religion haue receiued many good things from the papists as the Israelites did the Arke frō the Philistines I graunt that the Iewes haue many good things amōgst them yet there is great difference betwene Iewes papists The papist receiueth the new Testamēt so doth not the Iew. The papist doth not vse circūcision because the date of it is out but baptisme which is an engraffing into Christ The Iewe retaineth circumcision doth not admit baptisme That the papists are not altogether aliens frō Gods couenant I haue shewed before and doe rest in M. Caluines iudgement for that point You write that poperie was neuer the trueth as yet If you meane that all poperie was neuer the trueth as yet I agree with you If you meane that no part in poperie was euer the trueth as yet you erre grossely and are refuted by your owne words which are that there are certaine steppes of true religion in poperie You giue out that no papist in that
he was a papist euer professed the trueth My answere is that they did and doe erre in very many things but yet they did and doe professe some trueth and I doubt not but that many which liued and died in the time of popish darkenesse died Gods seruants If you thinke that a man being wide in many things is wide in all things then because you M. Penry haue deliuered manie blasphemous Anabaptisticall and other errours I might iustly conclude that you hold nothing soundly but I wil not offer you such measure If I did I should deale absurdly with you Howe professed papists are Idolaters appeareth in my second proposition which is newly added to my former treatise Thither I referre you I. Penry Antichrist I grant should sit as God in the temple of God but it was neuer the temple of God since he planted his pestilent chaire therein Poperie in deed hath inuaded the seates and possessions of true religion and began first where the trueth was professed For the mysterie of iniquitie first appeared within the Church and not else-where where true religion flourished and not among the heathen neither could he bee that aduersarie whose beginning shoulde bee in Paganisme But although Poperie tooke roote in the soyle where the true Churche was planted yet it so grewe there that it still continued to be the synagogue of Satan and could neuer as yet be the Church of God howsoeuer it hath ouergrowen the possession thereof And what though their fathers who now are Papists were within the couenant as professing true religion shall it therefore followe that their Idolatrous sonnes should be so too If they returne the Lord hath mercie in store for them I denie not But what is there in this poynt saide for the Papists which the Iewes cannot with farre more shewe of reason pretend for themselues The profaning of Baptisme among the Papistes can make them no more be within the Church then the continuance of the profanation of Circumcision among the Ishmaelites and Edomites could keepe them vnder the couenant And why should popish Baptisme any more tye the Lords couenant to an Idolatrous race then an Ishmaelitish or Edomitish cutting off of the foreskinne linke him to be the God of those adulterous generations Oh but the Lord himselfe hath said in Isaak shall thy seede be called and Iaacob haue I loued and hated Esau Why the same Lorde in respect of his reuealed will for with his secrete election men must not meddle hath sayd the professours of true religion do I loue but the Idolatrous papists my soule abhorreth It will be here demaunded whether I make no more account of popish baptisme then of an Edomitish circumcision I see no reason why I should For a circumcised Edomite being receiued to be a true worshipper at Ierusalem should as well content himselfe with that circumcision circumcision being not a thing inuented by man or done in respect of man but ordeyned by the Lord and done in regard of the couenant made vnto Abraham as we doe with popish baptisme which is not called in question And yet that which is spoken concerning the profession of the trueth by the forefathers is not altogether true in popery for there bee many large regions nowe professing poperie where not so much as the name of Christ was heard vntill they were become grossely popish So that their first step was out of paganisme vnto poperie And this is the estate of all those poore oppressed vassals the west Indians who now in great numbers professe Romish Idolatrie For at such time as the Spanyard inuading their land brought vpon them the most miserable slauerie of the body soule that are vpon any people vnder heauen they had not so much as hearde whether there was any Christ but were most heathnish and sencelesse Idolaters as may appeare by the popish hystoriographers themselues who wrote the stories of those tymes And therefore to omit whose posterities many of the nations within Europe are that haue refused the light of the Gospel though it were granted that the rest of the popish rable were within in the couenant yet these miserable heathen papists can be said to be vnder no couenant but that which is made vnto popery and paganisme I hope M. Some howsoeuer you may be perswaded that other popish shauelings can deliuer a sacrament yet that you will doubt whether any man could be assured to receyue those holy seales at the hands of the heathen massemongers remayning in Cuba Hyspaniola Mexico or any other the Easterne parts And thus much concerning the assumption I am not ignorant that famous and worthie men haue otherwise written concerning the popish Church and therefore I am not to be pressed with their authoritie R. Some If your writings were as sounde as they are absurde they would giue many times great aduantage to the Papist Anabaptist c. If the popish church was neuer the temple of God since Antichrist planted his pestilent chaire there then in your iudgement the Pope is not Antichrist for Antichrist doth and must sit in the Temple of God that is in the Church of God I haue handled this argument before I rest in that I haue written there You say that a circumcised Edomite being receiued into the Church of Ierusalem should content himselfe with his circumcision in Idumea because circumcision was the Lords ordinance c. I agree with you in this If the Edomitish circumcision was the Lords ordinance then it was a seale of Gods couenant to the Idumeans and consequently the Edomites in your iudgement were not Aliens from Gods couenant for the seale of the couenant doth import and presuppose a couenant Besides if the Edomitish circumcision was true circumcision and the Edomitish Church no Church then a Sacrament was out of the Church c. How like you this M. Penry You knowe my meaning You adde that you call not popish baptisme in question Here I grant you doe not but a little after you vse these wordes viz. where there is no true Christ wherunto men can be engraffed by baptisme there true baptisme as touching the substance cannot be gotten c. But in popery there is no true Christ c. mendacem oportet esse memorē Your memory is very short You would neuer I thinke haue vēted such motley stuffe as this if you had thought it would haue bin looked on I can assure you that besides me whom you haue put to a litle paines your treatise hath beene viewed and reuiewed by very many learned men who condemne it for a foolish and fantasticall bable If the west Indians after profession of their beliefe in the holy trinitie were baptized as you say by popish shauelings I assure my selfe that they receiued true baptisme were therfore engraffed into Christ We in the Church of England neede not saile thanks be to God to the massemōgers in Cuba Hispaniola Mexico or any other part of the Indians we haue Gods holy
is not mans but Gods baptisme which is deliuered by them If it be Gods baptisme I am sure it is true baptisme Maister Caluin calleth them Catabaptistes which deny that wee are rightly baptized in the Popish Church Institut lib. 4. cap. 15. Sect. 16. Obiection The Popish priestes haue no lawfull calling therefore it is no true baptisme which is deliuered by them Answere The Argument followes not I confesse that the Popish priests haue no lawful calling yet they haue a calling though a faultie one They which are not lawfully called vnto the ministery and yet sit in the chaire of the ministerie are to bee accounted in an other place then they which haue no calling Caiphas was not in deede the lawfull high priest for he entred by money the priesthood in his time was rent in peeces yet because he sate in the high priests chaire he was accounted the high priest A faultie vocation may hurt him that vsurpes an office but it doth not defile those things which are done by that partie This is master Bezaes Iudgement in his 142. question If any shall gather of this that I allowe the Popish priesthood he deserues rather a Censor then Confuter for I confesse that Sacerdotium papisticum est sacrilegium that is that the Popish priesthood is Sacriledge 8. THEY ARE THE SAcraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are deliuered in the Church of England by vnpreaching ministers IF such as were baptized in the popish Church receiued true baptisme I trust they are rightly baptized in the Church of England which are baptized by vnpreaching ministers If such as were baptized by popish priests in the popish Church and by vnpreaching ministers in the Church of England receiued no sacrament many grosse absurdities would followe First very many are vnbaptized and if they bee vnbaptized they sinne grieuously in not presenting themselues to the holy Sacrament Secondly a great number haue sinned grossely in partaking the holy supper My reason is None vncircumcised might eate the Passeouer Ezodus 12. verse 48. therefore none vnbaptized may receiue the holy supper Thirdly many excellent men haue vsurped the preachers office My reason is It is vnlawfull for any man to bee a publique teacher in the visible Church which is not by baptisme graft into and so become a member of the visible Church Our Sauiour Christ was baptized of Iohn in Iordane before hee preached Matth. 3. and 4. Chap. The Apostle Paul was baptized of Ananias in Damascus before hee preached Act. 9. The vnpreaching Ministers doe adde the worde vnto the Element in the administration of Baptisme therefore it is the Sacramēt of Baptisme which is deliuered by them Accedit verbum ad elementum fit Sacramentum Aug. Tract 80. in Iohan. that is The worde is added to the Element and it becoms a Sacrament By worde in Baptisme is vnderstanded the word of Institution which is to Baptize in the name of the father the sonne and the holy Ghost c. Of this iudgement are Beza confess Cap. 4. Art 47. and Musculus de sig Sacram. Art 4. Obiection Christ sayde to his Apostles Goe and teach all nations baptizing c. Matth. 28. vers 19. therefore if the word preached be not added to the Element it is no Sacrament of Baptisme Answere The argument is very weake I confesse that Christ commanded his Apostles first to teach such as were of yeeres and alients from his religion and then to baptize them If the Gentiles had not bene first taught they would not haue offered thē selues nor the Apostles haue admitted them to the holy Sacrament of baptisme If any will conclude of this place in Saint Mathewe that none whatsoeuer may bee admitted to baptisme before they bee taught they shut our infants from the holy Sacrament and therefore are Catabaptists The vnpreaching ministers doe adde verbum adificans that is an edifying worde to the Elements in the administration of the holy supper therefore c. That there is verbum aedificans I proue it thus The summe of Christes sermon in the Institution administration of the holy supper by himselfe is the word of Institution in the administration of the holy Supper in the Church of England therefore vnlesse we wil denie the summe of Christs Sermon to be an edifying word which no learned mā wil deny we must confesse that we haue verbum aedificans in the administration of the holy supper with vs. If any will conclude of this that I mislike preaching before the administration of the Sacrament he doth me great wrong Obiection Vnpreching ministers are not apt to teach therefore they are no Sacraments which are deliuered by them Answere The argument followes not My reason is Many Iewish Priestes were both ignorant and dissolute in Esay and Christs time Esay 28. vers 7. Matth. 9. vers 36. But the Sacrifices offered and the Sacraments reached by them were both Sacrifices and Sacraments otherwise the Prophets which were at Ierusalem when the Iewish Church was full of corruption woulde not haue bene present at and partakers of the Sacrifices in Salomons Temple Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. sect 18 19. Obiection Ignorant ministers are not apt to teach therefore no ministers and consequently they are no Sacraments which are deliuered by them Answere The argument followes not I grant that it is of the substance of a lawful good minister of God to be apt to teach but it is not of the essence of a Minister simply for which it is sufficient to haue the Churches calling This appeareth clearely in the Magistrate The holy Ghost requireth that none shoulde bee chosen a Magistrate vnlesse he were a man of courage fearing God dealing truely and hating couetousnesse Exodus 18. verse 21. When such are aduanced as defile their handes either with filthie bribes as Felix did or with barbarous crueltie as Abimelech and Herode did shall we say that they are no Magistrates I confesse they are not singled out by the electors according to Almightie Gods direction in his holy Bible but they are Magistrates notwithstanding and we are commanded by the Lord to perfourme all duetie vnto them Saluo officio that is our duetie being reserued to the highest Magistrate which is God himselfe If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I vndertake the defence of Ignorant ministers my answere is that my writings and sermons are not Aiax shielde to couer them but the Lords sworde to cutte them I confesse freely that I am very farre from opening either the Church doore to ignorant Ministers or the Pulpit doore to vnskilfull preachers which vnskilfull preachers giue Gods religion a greater blowe then the ignorant Ministers for in steade of deuiding the worde of trueth aright they speake at al aduentures yet very boldely and as vnskilfull Apothecaries deliuer quid pro quo chaffe for wheate and strange fancies for Gods holy trueth By such absurde fellowes many Churches and excellent men in this lande
reason from the outward calling of readers I referre to your next chapter where they are repeated thither nowe I am come where the contradictory of the question shal be set downe and proued briefely because the nullitie of the vnpreaching ministery may be in steade of a thousand reasons to proue the same R. Some My obiections are seuerall whatsoeuer you say Any one that hath but halfe an eye may easily see it by my seuerall answeres I haue set downe the obiections as they were deliuered to me The confutation of my answeres if it be any is foorth comming you say in an other place I haue sought for it but I cannot finde it It is shrunke I feare in the wetting R. Some If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I vndertake the defence of ignorant ministers my answere is that my writings and Sermons are not Aiax shielde to couer them but the Lords sworde to cutte them I confesse freely that I am very farre from opening either the Church doore to ignorant ministers or the pulpit doore to vnskilfull preachers which vnskilfull preachers giue Gods religion a greater blowe then the ignorant ministers for in stead of diuiding the word of trueth aright they speake at all aduentures yet very boldely and as vnskilfull Apothecaries deliuer quid pro quo chaffe for wheate and strange fancies for Gods holy trueth By such absurde fellowes many Churches and excellent men in this land haue bene greatly disquieted and the good course of religiō hath bene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates I. Penry I am as farre from accounting the vnskilfull preachers which speake hand ouer head they care not what against whome your complaint is very iust to be ministers as I am from acknowledging many of our absucde doctors to be apt to teach who can bring nothing into the Pulpit but that which other men haue written and that very often so fit to the purpose of edification as the reason from the corner to the staffe is soundly concluded In these three sortes of supposed ministers and there coulde be a fourth added vnto them confisteth the woe of our Church R. Some Is my complaint iust against vnskilful preachers Doe you M. Penry wipe them out of the rolle of ministers Will you shut the pulpit doore against them Take heede what you doe You bidde your selfe losse Your kingdome will then fall to the ground for vnskilfull preachers are your Bulwarks and Blockhouses to support your fancies The absurde Doctors you mention shall haue no defence of mee If they preach as you write for that duetie and loue I owe and beare to the Church and Vniuersities I woulde both they you were disgraded and they kept out of the Pulpit and your writings out of the Presse I hope some good will growe by your writings First that the Vniuersities will take better heed vpon vvhom they bestow their degrees Secondly that the Magistrates vvill looke better to the Printing houses By the fourth sort of supposed Ministers vvhich you vvrite of I knovve not vvhom you meane I could ghesse shrevvdly but I vvil not because I vvill not misconstrue you If they or any other be the murraine of our Church I vvoulde they vvere either reformed or remooued R. Some If any shall aske me what the true causes are why so many vnfit men are the Churches ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and doe grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will be healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key M. Penry sayeth nothing to this CHAP. 9. THE GODLY ARE NOT polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the hands of an vnpreaching Minister I. Penry BY pollution I doubt not you meane sinne R. Some I doe so R. Some The Sacraments are Gods ordinance the ministers ignorance can not peruert the nature of Gods ordinance I. Penry The Ministers ignorance say you page 28. cannot peruert Gods ordinance and againe page 29. the Sacraments are not the worse for the ignorance of the minister c. All this I graunt but bare readers are not ministers and the doubt is whether the action performed by them be the ordinance of God whether it bee a Sacrament These be the questions which you ought to haue proued and not haue taken them as principles though you doe this the third and fourth time R. Some Your writings are like the winde not long in one corner Before you denied it not to be a Sacrament which was deliuered by vnpreaching ministers here you doubt of it You erred either then or now Were he not a wise man that would followe your humour The rocke he should builde on should be nothing but sand his building should be as the wall in Ezechiel dawbed with vntempered morter If vnpreaching ministers haue administred a Sacrament in your iudgement I am sure you cannot deny them to haue a calling for you will not accompt it a Sacrament which is deliuered by priuate men But let vs see what you write in an other place of this argument I. Penry If vnpreaching ministers be no ministers and if I cannot be assured to receiue a Sacrament but onely at the hands of a minister then cannot I assure my selfe that an vnpreaching minister can deliuer a Sacrament vnto me and therefore it is vnlawfull for me or any Christian to goe vnto an vnpreaching minister for the Sacraments if vnlawfull then a sinne if a sinne then the godly are polluted which goe vnto them for the Sacraments R. Some If vnpreaching ministers were no ministers as you affirme and I denie then I would confesse that a Sacrament might as easily be had of them as water of a drie ditch But what if some did minister the Sacrament in the Apostles times which were not preachers very famous men are of that iudgement Caluine vpon these wordes of the Apostle Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1. Cor. 1.17 writeth thus There were fewe to whom the office of preaching was committed but the administration of Baptisme was committed to many Martyr writeth thus vpon the same place of the Apostle Munus tingendi c. that is the administration of Baptisme may bee committed to euery one in the Church but not the office of preaching Chrisostome vpon that place of S. Paul hath these vvordes Euangelizare perpaucorum est c. that is fewe are able to preach but euery one may baptize that hath a calling Of this iudgement are Ambrose Hemingius c. Augustine hath these wordes Perfectè baptizare minùs docti
kingdome hee and his sonnes in the middes of Israel Deut. 17. I frame my argument thus The king is commaunded to reade the lawe of God that hee may learne to feare God and decline pride therefore the reading of the law of God doth edifie In king Iosias time the booke of the lawe was found by Hilkiah the Priest This booke was read in the Lordes house The king was present so were all the men of Iuda the inhabitants of Ierusalem and the Priests and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest c. 2. Chron. 34. I make my argument thus The booke of the lawe was not read in vaine in the Lordes house c. 2. Kings 22. therefore it did edifie All the wordes of my mouth are righteous there is no lewdnesse nor frowardnesse in them They are all plaine to him that will vnderstande and streight to them that would find knowledge Prou. 8. Therefore the holy Scriptures both read and preached doe edifie His salubriter praua corriguntur paruanutriuntur magna oblectantur ingenia Aug. Epist 3. The holy Scripture hath in it milke for babes and stronger meate for them that are of age Heb. 5. The holy Scripture is a shallowe water where in the lambe may wade and a great sea wherein the Elephant may swimme The Lawe and the Prophets were read in the Churches of Antiochia and Ierusalem Act. 13. and in Nazareth Luke 4. If the reading of the holy Scriptures doe not edifie why were the law and Prophets read in the Temple and Synagogues The Apostle writeth thus to the pastours and people of Colosse Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously c. Coloss 3. Therefore Gods people are not to be barred from the reading of the holy Scripture If it doeth not edifie they were iustly barred by the Popish Cleargie Victorinus was an Oratour in Rome By reading the Scriptures he became a Christian Mirante Roma gaudente ecclesia that is Rome marueyled at Victorinus conuersion Gods Church was glad of it Aug. Confess lib. 8. cap. 2. Gods speach vnto vs I am sure doth edifie when the Scriptures are read God speaketh vnto vs. The holy Scriptures are Dei Epistola c. that is Gods Epistle vnto vs. By reading the Scriptures Gods people do more easily receiue Gods holy truth and espie Popish absurdities and Anabaptisticall fancies They which mislike the reading of the scriptures are Zwingfildians that is absurde heretikes What then is master Penry which writeth that the worde barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not wholesome doctrine If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I am an enemie to the preaching of the word hee deserueth no answere My iudgement is If the reading of the holy scriptures doeth edifie that sounde preaching doeth edifie much more By sound preaching I vnderstand the giuing of the true sense of the scripture and applying it to the profite of the auditours Thus did Ezra Christ the Apostles preach This course I am sure doeth highly please God and bringeth many sheepe into the Lordes folde The Lorde increase the number of such teachers that Gods religion may flourish as Aarons rod did and that Popish and Anabaptisticall errours may be deuoured as the roddes of the Egyptian sorcerers were Ille huic doctrinae inimicus est animus qui vel errando eam nescit esse saluberrimam vel odit aegrotando medicinam Agust Epist. 3. CHAP. 5. A DEFENCE OF THAT which hath bene written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie and the communicating with them By IOHN PENRY THere be two things M. D. SOME wherein you by oppugning that trueth which out of the worde of God I had set downe concerning the two former questions haue bene wanting both vnto your selfe and to the cause the defence whereof you vndertooke The former want of the two appeareth by your spare dealing in a matter of such great weight wherin you haue dealt with so illiberal a hand that what hath bene written by you might seeme to proceede rather from any then from a man whose gifts and learning seemed to promise the affording of greater and more weightie matters then any set downe in that treatise R. Some Your beginning is full of courage I do not wonder at it He that runneth alone is alwayes formost You accuse me to withstande Gods trueth A sore charge If true I must reuerse my iudgement if vntrue true you haue dealt iniuriously with me When Ioas was aduanced to the Imperiall Crowne of Iuda Athalia cried Treason Treason 2. Chron. 23. A hard speach against king Ioas Iehoiada c. But Athalia her selfe was the Traitour You shall apply this I haue dealt you say verie sparingly in a matter of great importance If I haue so your aduantage is greater If the seede sowen in my booke were like yours I might be iustly thought to bee verie prodigall My treatise I perceiue is not for your tooth it is simple in your eye Aquila non capit muscas It hath pleased many I thanke God of excellent learning and wisedome to like of it That is my comfort Instar mille Platonis calculus I make very meane account as yet of your iudgement You are not read you are to seeke in the principles of diuinitie you haue broched grosse errours you know not your ignorance For that knowledge which Almightie God hath giuen me I thanke his Maiestie verie humbly It is more I confesse then I am worthie of God giue me grace to vse it to his glorie I. Penry The number of my reasons were many you onely haue touched two of them the rest are not dealt with And therefore the cause as yet remaineth whole For be it you had answered these two as you haue not yet had you not satisfied the doubtfull conscience of those that know not in these points which way to turne them as long as any one of my reasons remayned vnanswered R. Some Your reasons I confesse haue number but they want weight I haue confuted three of them The first of the three is accompted by you a pillar of marble But I haue not you say dealt with the rest Content yourselfe I haue made no fault I answered such and so many as were deliuered to me by some of your faction When I had finished my treatise your booke was brought me before I knew not that you were the father of them You denie that I haue answered any of your reasons It is easie to say so and you might worst haue sayde it A partie is vnfit to be a Iudge Your reasons are all of one stampe therefore the ouerthrow of the principall is the ouerthrow of all Your followers vvhich knowe not which way to turne them may thanke both you and themselues you for sowing themselues for reaping such giddie fancies It is an easie thing to leade and fall into an Anabaptisticall maze They will not bee satisfied you say before
vt eadem prorsus à nobis iudicari debeat eo haberi in loco quo aut Mahumetana aut Iudaica quae Christum penitus repudiant ab eius legibus institutis abhorrent Nam sinulla omnino extarent in ea veteris Ecclesiae vestigia Daniel non praedixisset futuram abominationem in loco sancto nequè Paulus perditum illum filium in Templo Dei sessurum Quomodo enim sederet Antichristus in Templo Dei si nullae amplius superessent illius Templi saltem reliquiae aliqua ruinarum vestigia aut quomodo occupare abominatio lucū sanctum si totus adeò esset profanatus vt ne vllus quidem vel exiguus angulus pristinae sanctitati relictus esset Nam etsi praeualet ac latiùs dominari videtur hominum iudicio impietatis regnum Et Christi Ecclesia vsqué eò oppressa ac pene suffocata vt vix spiritum ampliùs trahere possit nondū tamen penitus animam exhalait Viret Tract de Commun fid cum Pap. cer pag. 66. 67. The summe of his wordes is first that the popish Church may not be accompted of as the Mahomet Iewish Churches which refuse Christ altogether Secondly that if no prints of Gods Church remayned in the popish Church Daniel and Paul would not haue foretold the one that abomination should be in the Holy place the other that Antichrist should sit in the temple of God Lastly that the Church of God amōgst the Papists though it be almost smothered hath not as yet giuen vp the ghost Daneus writeth that the Popish Church is the Church and Temple of God not simply but secundum quid that is after a sort His reason is because the popish Church retaineth some printe of the markes and badges of Gods Church Tract de Ant. cap. 17. M. Foxe hath these words Neque enim Romam ita totam c. In Apoc. cap. 13. pag. 235. that is we doe not so seuer Rome frō al felowship of the church that it shal haue no coniunction at all with the body of Christ If M. Penry mislike my first reason let him confute it c. 2 Ieroboam did set vp Calues at Bethel and Dan. In his time the seruice of God was strangely corrupted yet certaine prerogatiues belonging to the Church remained then amongst the Iewes Circumcision which was the Lordes Sacrament could not be so defiled by the vncleane hands of the Iewes but that it was alwayes a signe and Sacrament of Gods couenant therefore God called the infants of that people his children c. In the Popish Church God hath preserued Baptisme c. Besides there remaine amōgst them other remnants vidz the Lords prayer the Articles of the faith the Commandements c. least the Church should vtterly perish c. Lastly Almightie God hath miraculously preserued amongst them the remnants of his people though poorely and thinly scattered c. Of this M. Caluine concludeth that the popish Churches are Churches Institut lib. 4. cap. 2. sect 11.12 If my second reason taken out of M. Caluine please you not confute that part of M. Caluines Institutions 3 If there be no Church at all in Poperie the infants of Papists are not to bee baptized in any reformed Church though some of the religiō doe answere for vndertake the good educatiō of them Which I take to be a great errour Master Caluine and the rest of the learned men in Geneua being required of M. Knoxe to set downe their iudgement touching this question vidz whether the infants of Idolaters and excōmunicate persons might be admitted to baptisme c. deliuer this answere Promissio non sobolem tantum cuiusque fidelium in primo gradu comprehendit sed in mille generationes extēditur Vnde etiam factum est vt pietatis interruptio quae grassata est in papatu c. Calu. Epist 285. The summe of their words is that Gods promise doth not onely comprehend the posterity of the faithfull in the first degree but reacheth vnto a thousand generations and that those children which descended of such ancestours as were godly many yeeres ago do belong to the body of the Church though their parents and grandfathers were Apostates c. M. Beza writeth thus of this argument Iniquū esset Papistas c. Epist 10. The summe of his wordes is that Papists are otherwise to bee accompted of then Turkes because Popery is an aberratiō of the Christian Church Besides because Gods goodnes extendeth it selfe to a thousande generations that it were a hard case to iudge by the profession of the later parents whether the infants pertaine to Gods couenant c. Thus farre M. Beza If any shall reply that Gods couenant hath no place at all amongst the Papists and therefore that their infants are at no hande to bee baptized in our Churches howsoeuer some of the religion offer them in the assemblie to the holy Sacrament M. Caluines answere is Certum est adhuc illic manere residuum faedus Dei exparte quia quamuis c. Cal. Ezec. 16.20 That is It is certaine that the couenant is there on Gods behalfe and therfore that Popish baptisme needeth not to be renued besides that Satan albeit he raigned of late in the Popish Church could not altogether extinguish the grace of God imò illic est ecclesia Alioqui falsum esset Pauli vaticinium vbi dicit antichristum sedere in Dei templo 2. Thes 2.4 That is A Church is there otherwise Paules prophecie that Antichrist should sit in the temple of God were false c. If it shall please the learned reader to reade M. Caluines Commentarie vpon chap. 16. and vers 20. of Ezech. It will be worth his labour A Popish obiection of the absurde Papists and of Master Penry If the Church of Rome be a Church those Magistrates which haue separated themselues and their subiects from the Popish Church are Schismatikes c. Answere Our Magistrates people c. haue seuered themselues not from the Church but from Idolatry not from the common wealth but from tyranny oppressing the common wealth not from the Citie but from the plague which pestereth the Citie c. that is separation is not frō any trueth remaining in the Popish Church nor from the poore Church that is there holden vnder captiuitie but from the corruptions of the Popish Church and from the tyrannie of Antichrist which is more grieuous then the yoke either of Egypt or Chaldaea therfore godly princes people cannot iustly be called Schismatikes Thrasibulus withdrewe himselfe to Phile during the time that thirtie tyrants did teare in peeces the common wealth in Athens Camillus withdrew himselfe to Veies during the time that the Gaules wasted the Citie of Rome If any shal conclude of this that Thrasibulus and Camillus separated themselues from the common wealths of Rome and Athens and not from the tyrannie vnder which the Atheniens and Romanes then were hee reasoneth most absurdly c. The
substaunce of baptisme out of the Church and that by those that are without the Church for then a sacrament might be had out of the Church which were very impious and absurd to be affirmed But popery is out of the Church and so are all popish priests Therfore no man can assure himselfe to haue the substance of baptisme in poperie by any popish priest R. Some Before that I deny any part of your reason I must tell you that I haue proued alreadie that true baptisme hath bene and may be out of the Church Ciprian thought otherwise and therefore would haue such as were baptized by excōmunicated hereticks to be rebaptized But he was and is condemned for that errour by ancient later writers You giue out very peremptorily that it is very impious and absurde to affirme that baptisme either hath bene or may be out of the Church So did the Donatists in Augustines time It is no great matter what you say Your bolt is soone shot Your water is very shallow Many points vvhich you condemne in your Consistorie for grosse absurdities are manifest trueths in the sound iudgement of all reformed Churches So is this present particuler Touching your argument I denie your Minor My reason is the Popish church is a church though an vnsound Church and Popish priestes haue a calling though a faultie one For proofe of this I referre you to that vvhich I haue vvritten before in this Treatise If you like not my reasons confute them I. Penry That there is no Church at all in poperie and that all popish priests are out of the Church besides the former reasons this one doth further shew If there be a Church in poperie or if all popish priests bee not out of the Church then those magistrates that haue separated themselues and their subiects and all others that made this separation from the Romish religion as from that synagogue where saluation is not to be had and consequently where there is no Church are schismatikes to speake the least Because it is a schisme to make this separation from the Church detest the corruptions thereof we may but make such a separation from the Church we ought not vnlesse we would be accounted schismatiks But those Magistrates and their people that made this separation are not schismatickes because in Poperie the foundation is ouerthrowen You say in your booke M. Some page 33. that you could presse the Argument of the Magistracie against me very farre Whether you may or no that shal be cōsidered when I deale with the point but this I am assured of that in this point you shall be driuen either to defend the absurditie that baptisme is to be had out of the Church in a companie estranged from Christ which I thinke you will not do or vrged so farre as to the plaine breach of a Statute which farre be it from me euen in the cause of treason Will ye say that baptisme may be had out of the Church the assertion is absurd Or will you hold that there is a Church in Poperie the assertion is dangerous and I haue prooued it false It is dangerous because it affirmeth our Magistrates to be schismatiks inasmuch as they haue separated themselues from the Church I hope rather then you will fall into either of these points that you will graunt me the cause R. Some I will answere your seuerall pointes very briefly The reason which you vse to prooue there is no Church at all in popery is this viz. If there bee a Church at al in popery the Magistrates and people which are of the religion are schismaticks at the least My answere is that this is a popish argument I haue answered it before and doe rest in that answere If either you or any of the popish sort mislike my answere you may confute it Besides if there be no Church at all in popery as you affirme why should the Churches of England Germany Dēmarke which were sometimes popish be called reformed Churches The very name of reformed Churches doth manifestly import that the Churches of England Germanie Denmarke c. though popish and vnsound were Churches in some sort before the reformation If you thinke that all the popish sorte which died in the popish Church ore damned you thinke absurdly for you dissent from the iudgement of all the learned protestants and doe presume to sit in Gods chaire which is intollerable sawcinesse To say or write that true baptisme hath beene and may bee out of the Church is a true proposition in diuinitie Augustine did maintaine it against the Donatists The most famous mē Churches in our time are of that iudgement I rest in that with all my heart You account it an absurde proposition The best is you are not master of the sentences as Peter Lumbard was If you were which God defend the sounde diuinity which is taught in Cambridge and Oxford should bee cryed downe and your strange fancies should be ruled cases The argument of the magistracy is touched before I perceiue it hath mooued you a litle for you drawe out a statute of Treasō c. What I beseech you good Sir No lesse then Treason you are a charitable man I haue do and will perfourme all dutie by Gods grace to the religion and my gracious Prince so long as I liue therefore treason statutes can take no hold of mee Yea the refutation of your blasphemous Anabaptisticall popish and proude errours by me is I am sure a performance of a speciall duetie to Almightie God my Prince and this Church And I doubt not but that blessing which God hath giuen already to my last treatise and which his Maiestie will giue to this will marre your market Great wordes shal not fray me c. If your ignorāt disciples wil stil magnifie you it shal not be strāge to me they do but their kind Such as bee learned wise haue do find you out Cognoscitur quis sit vt vt laudetur Coruus The most famous orators that euer were in Rome and Athens could not make the rauen to be no rauen Tertullus commended Felix Act. 24. but Felix was an absurde body and stripped of his office by Claudius Caesar The Samaritans commended Simon Magus Act. 8 Libanius the Sophister commended Iulian the Apostate Socr. lib. 3. cap. 22. Eunomius cōmended Aetius which was a pestilent heretike Theodor. lib. 2. cap. 29. You haue protested many times in your treatise that you reuerence me but here you offer me this choise either to defende that which is in your iudgemēt an absurditie but in deede is none or to incurre the danger of treason c. Doe you thinke that I haue any the least cause to beleeue your glorious protestations Ioab pretended extraordinarie good will to Abner and Amasa but he killed them 2. Sam. 3. and 20. chap. Ismael pretended extraordinarie good wil to them of Sichem Silo Samaria the beast shedde teares but they were Crocodiles teares for
of 80. godly men hee killed 70. of them Ier. cap. 41. Iudas kissed Christ but he betrayed him Matth. 26. You vse goodly wordes sometimes but proud malice will appeare it cannot bee hidden Marcus Cicero in his time had many hollow friendes After his returne from banishment he was reuenged of them Nihil credendo omnia cauendo that is in crediting them in nothing and bewaring of them in euery thing If I serue you so I can not bee iustly blamed You pretende great sinceritie and innocencie but your hereticall absurdities in your treatise and your shamelesse dealing with our Magistrates and learned men doe crie aloude that you are in deede very litle acquainted with sincerity and innocencie I tell you plainely that I like better Humile peccatum quà m superbā innocentiam that is humble sinne then proud innocēcie The humble Publican was more accounted of then the proude Pharisee Luk. 18. I pray God with all my heart to keepe me and all such as loue the religion and detest your Anabaptisticall fancies from such as you and the fantasticall sort are You and they are strange cattel Your hope that I will graunt you the cause you defend is a vaine hope for I thinke great scorne to be one of ignorāt Penries disciples that is a proud and ignorant Anabaptist If you will haue any thing at my hands in diuinitie matters you must gaine it by force of argument If you thinke that I will come off otherwise you are in a wrong boxe for I intend not to be at your whistle Yea I require and charge you in the name of God if you be not voyde of grace to confesse your ignorance to detest your errours to yeeld vnto Gods truth that Gods blessing may rest vpon you If you refuse to doe this take heede that Gods vengeance seaze not vpon you I. Penry Lastly if men might be assured that they could haue the true substance of baptisme in Popery then they ought not to keepe their children from Popish baptisme if there were no other baptisme in the worlde to be had For men might come to their baptisme detest their corruptions if it be Gods baptisme as you M. Some affirmed it to be pag. 20. And they can adde an edifying worde vnto the Sacrament if the recitall of the wordes of institution be an edifying word and that be sufficient to make a Sacrament both which you haue written page 23. 24. But men ought rather to keepe their children vnbaptized then to offer them to bee prophaned by Popish baptisme both for the former reasons and because wee ought to haue no more fellowship with Papists in the seruice of God then with Pagane idolaters M. Caluine hath written otherwise in this point therefore againe I appeale to the word R. Some I vvill ansvvere this section of yours both briefly and roundly by the grace of God That baptisme deliuered in the Popish church was and is Gods baptisme I make no question For proofe of this point I haue set downe waightie reasons in my former treatise One of M. Caluines an other ab Absurdo Your answeres to them are very foolish and are so accounted of by the learned sort I haue examined them a litle in this Treatise It is the iudgement of all the reformed Churches that there was is true baptisme in the Popish church Before you denied it not but now the case is altered you accompt it an errour to affirme it What mutabilitie is this Hee that would saile after your compasse for Diuinitie matters should proue as giddie as a goose I pray God with all my heart to blesse his people in England Wales and to keepe them from such blinde guides as the ignorant sort are and from such blinde guides as the ignorant sort are and from such shamelesse and fantasticall guides as you M. Penry are Concerning this question viz. whether men ought to offer their children to Popish baptisme if there were no other baptisme in the world to be had M. Penry saith one while that they ought if Popish baptisme be Gods Baptisme which before he denied not An other while he is peremptory that mē ought rather to kepe their childrē vnbaptized His reason is because we ought to haue no more fellowship with papists in Gods scruice then with pagane Idolaters The issue therefore nowe is first whether infants ought rather to be kept vnbaptized then to bee presented to popish baptisme Secondly whether no more fellowship is to be had with papists in Gods seruice then with heathen Idolaters Concerning the first question M. Caluines resolution is affirmatiue if the parents which they cannot do without peril of life do publikely detest the popish corruptions M. Caluines reason is the omitting of baptisme is contempt of Christianitie Cal. Epist 104. Of this iudgement are Melanchthon and Peter Martyr Cal. Epist 103. Viretus Tract de commun fid cum papist Cer. pag. 61 62 70. I confesse freely that this is a very waightie question but in this our time a needelesse question and that men of great excellēcie for learning haue their seueral iudgements I would be loath to stirre coales in this argument Touching the other question M. Penry saith that no more fellowship is to be had in religion matters with papists then with pagane Idolaters I dissent from him in this My reasons are first the papists professe the holy Trinitie so doe not the pagane Idolaters Secondly the papists are not altogether aliens from Gods external couenant but the heathen Idolaters as yet are Lastly M. Caluine is very flat against you in this point Epist 104. In steed of answering his reasons in that Epistle you appeale to the word A strange kind of appealing whē M. Caluines arguments are drawen out of the holy word If you wil deale plainly as you ought neuer piddle any longer goe through stitch withall seeing you are ouer shoes aduenture ouer bootes too confute Caluines 104. Epistle and that which he hath written very excellently vpon the 20. verse of the 16. chap. of Ezechiel If you giue the vnset and fayle whereof I make no question you shall lose no credite of learning for you neuer had any as yet Qui semel verecundiae limites c. you knowe the rest I. Penry Seeing therfore in Popery there is no Church no Ministery no Christ Seeing we ought in no case to be ioyned with Papistes in their religion but to be separated from them as from those that are out of the Church and such as are become a very filthy cage and nest of vncleane and sacrilegious idolaters therefore also it necessarily followeth that neither our Popish recusants nor any else offring their children to be baptized in the Popish synagogue by those polluted and vncleane Priestes may assure themselues that they can bee there partakers of true baptisme as touching the substance of baptisme R. Some Seeing therefore in the iudgement of all learned men and all reformed Churches there is in
haue beene greatly disquieted and the good course of religion hath beene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates If any shall aske mee what the true causes are why so many vnfitte men are the Churches Ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and do grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will bee healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key 9. THE GODLY ARE not polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister THE Sacramentes are Gods ordinance the Ministers ignorance cannot peruert the nature of Gods ordinance A Sacrament can neuer be without promise of saluation therefore the worthy partaker of the Sacrament receiues a blessing if a blessing then no pollution That he receiues a blessing the Apostle teacheth vs We are buried with Christ saith S. Paul by baptisme into his death c. Rom. 6. verse 4. The cuppe of blessing which we blesse is it not the communion of the blood of Christ The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of Christ 1. Cor. 11. verse 16. The parents of Christ went to Ierusalem euery yere at the feast of the Passeouer Luk. 2. vers 41. their going to Ierusalem was to testifie their religion to be partakers of the sacrifices There were at that time in Salomons Temple manifold corruptions the high Priesthood was solde for money many of the Iewish Priests were ignorant yet Ioseph the virgine Mary were not polluted Calu. Luc. 2. vers 41. The godly which receiue the holy Supper of an vnpreaching Minister are not partakers of the Ministers vnworthinesse but of the holy Sacrament which is a pillar of our faith therefore the vnworthinesse of the Minister doth not defile the Communicāt Alterius siue Pastoris siue priuati indignitate non laeditur pia conscientia c. Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 19. that is A godly conscience is not hurt by the vnworthinesse of an other either Pastor or priuate man neither are the mysteries lesse pure and healthfull to a holy man because they are then handled of such as be impure Ille qui accipit si homo bonus ab homine malo si fidelis à perfido si pius ab impio perniciosumerit danti non accipienti Illud quippe sanctum malè vtentem iudicat bene accipientem sanctificat Aug. contra Cresc gram lib. 2. cap. 28. that is he which receiueth if a good of an euill man if a faithfull of a faithlesse man if a godly of a wicked man it will be hurtful to the giuer not to the receiuer for that holy thing he meaneth the sacrament doth iudge him which vseth it ill but doeth sanctifie him which receiueth it well Circumcision was one of the Lords Sacraments in the Iewish Church The Iewes which were circumcised of impure priestes and Apostates receiued no hurt therefore no pollution Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 15. Sect. 16. The Sacraments neither are nor can be the worse for the ignorance or vnworthinesse or better for the learning or worthinesse of any man whatsoeuer Whosoeuer thinketh otherwise is a Donatist Touching this point of the Sacrament I rest wholy in Augustines iudgement his wordes are these Ego dieo meliùs per bonū ministrū quà m per malū dispensari sacramenta diuina verùm hoc propter ipsum ministrum melius est vteis rebus quas ministrat vita moribus congruat non propter illum qui etiam si incurrerit in ministrum malum dispensantem veritatem securitatem accipit à domino suo monente ac dicente Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt nolite facere dicunt enim non faciunt Addo etiam ad hoc esse melius vt ille cui ministratur ministri boni probitatem ac sanctitatem diligendo faciliùs imitetur Sed non ideo veriora sanctiora sunt quae ministrantur quia per meliorem ministrantur Illa namque per seipsa vera sancta sunt propter Deum verum sanctum cuius sunt ideo fieri potest vt accedens ad societatem populi Dei alium inueniat à quo facilè baptizetur alium eligat quem salubriter imitetur Certus est enim sanctum esse Sacramentum Christi etiamsi per minùs sanctum vel non sanctum hominem ministratum est se autem eiusdem ipsius sacramenti sanctitate puniri si indignè acceperit si malè vsus fuerit si ei non conuenienter congruè vixerit August contra Cresc Gram. lib. 4. cap. 20. The summe of Augustines wordes is that the Sacrament is administred better by a good then by a bad Minister yet that the Sacraments of themselues are true and holy c. by what minister so euer they be deliuered c. If any shall aske mee whether it be lawful to omit the partaking of the holy Sacrament in such Churches ouer which ignorant ministers are set and to present our selues and our infants to the holy Sacrament in other Churches my answere is that I referre them to the Magistrate and Gouernours of our Churches c. Obiection By whome a thing ought not to be deliuered by another it ought not to bee receiued but ignorant ministers ought not to deliuer the Sacraments therefore c. Answere The Maior is false My reason is An euill man ought not to deliuer the worde of God but wee ought to receiue it An euill man ought not to giue almes but a poore man may receiue it An absurde minister ought not to deliuer the Sacrament but they are not polluted which receiue it Obiection They of whose ministerie there is a Nullitie before God although they haue an outwarde calling ought not to bee accompted ministers therefore not to bee communicated with I. Penry pag. 43 44. Answere I denie your Antecedent My reasons are First there was a Nullitie before God of Caiphas Priesthoode for hee entred by money and the Priesthood was deuided betweene him and Annas against the Lords order Calu. Luc. 3. yet Caiphas is called the high Priest by the Euangelists Mat. 26. Ioh. 18. Secondly there was a Nullitie before God of the ministerie of some in Philippos which preached Christ of contention and to adde more affliction to Pauls bandes Philip. Chap. 1. verse 15 16. But these are accompted ministers by the Apostle vers 15 18. If any shall deny that there was a Nullitie before God of their ministerie I prooue it thus They had not an inward calling M. Penry saith that an inward calling is contained in the