further nor otherwise D. B. The publisher to the Reader Section 2. Novv having vveighed and considered vvith my selfe the great ignorance and errors vvherevvith those of the separation aforesaid are and have bene lately carried avvaye namely to affirme That all that stande members of the Churches of Englande are no true Christians nor in state of salvation And such like most vngodly sentences vvhich vvould grieve any Christian soule once to thinke on much more to publish to the vievv of the vvorld And vveighing likevvise vvithall the greate vveakenes of manie Christians among vs vvho through vvant of experience or due consideration of things as they are may easelie by theyr delusions be dravvne avvay into those errors vvith them I haue therefore Asvvell in hope of reclaiming of the said parties from their said extremities vvhich novv I iudge the most of them for vvant of meanes see not As also for the staying of others from running into the same grievous excesse vvith them novv published this discourse to the vievv of the vvorld vvhich hath line buryed in the hands of some fevv Many being desirous of it vvho by reason of the largnes in vvriting out of the same could not obteyne it VVhere vnto I am so much the rather induced For that the Reasons herein by Maister Iacob alleadged haue by Gods blessing reclaymed many from their former errors and satisfied others vvho have bene doubtfull and subiect to fall into the same In the examining of vvhich Discourse I shall desire the Reader to observe a fevv notes for his better proffiting in the same 1. And First among the rest to note this as a token of the strange and obstinate dealing of Maister Iohnson and others of them viz. That heretofore vntill such time as the Argument hereafter mentioned was framed against them they neuer denyed That the doctrine and profession of the Churches of England vvas sufficient to make those that belâ—eued and obeyed them to be true Christians and in state of salvation But alvvayes held professed and acknovvledged the contrarie As by the publike confessions of themselves namely Maister Barrovv Maister Penry and Maister Iohnson himselfe in this discourse mentioned in Pag. 167. 168. appeareth But novve they seing That if they should acknovvledge the said Doctrines and profession to be sufficient to salvation That then this conclusion vvould of necessitie follovv that those that hold and practise them are a true * * VVhich yet Mr. Penâ—y coÌ„fessed see Pag. 168. Church And so theyr ovvn former iudgements should be crossed Rather I say then they vvould be dravvne to that They novve stick not to deny their ovvne confessions vvhich they thinke to be the faifest vvay for them and like vnnaturall children so vehemently hate contemne and dispise theyr mother vvho bare them nourished and brought them vp from vvhose brests they sucked that svveere milke of the meanes of euerlasting life and salvation if euer they had any tast of it at all Beeing notvvithstanding not abashed novve in a desperate manner in the hardnes of theyr heart to affirme ‡ ‡ VVhich appeareth generally by denying the Assumption of Mr. Iacobs particularly in these Pages 29. 139. 140 141. That none by the doctrine of the Churches of England can be a true Christian or saved But that they all worship God in vayne Are abolished from Christ Are Babilonians Idolaters departers from the faith worse then Infidels And such like most vnchristian sentences making them all one vvith the Church of Rome c. VVhich impious affirmations vvould cause any Christian heart to lament and bleed for grief VVhose vnchristian sentences and false and deceiptfull Reasons the very naming vvhereof vvere sufficient to refute them are most plainly taken avvaye and cleane ouerthrovvne by these brief Replyes of Maister Iacob vnto every of them vnto vvhich I referre yovv Onely this I adde vvith all vvhich I vvould desire might be noted That if they continevv in their former confessions That the Doctrines and profession of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation As they ought it being the very truth Then are they all in a most grievous schisme in so peremptorily condempning and separating from such true Christians and Churches And if they deny it as they have begonne to doe Then doe they runne headlong into an intollerable sinne and extremitie vvithout all vvarrant of Gods vvord And besides give iust occasion to be called fearfull * * VVhich name they vniustly give to those that iustly for this theyr extremity forsake their fellovvship Apostates in so vvholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth vvhich before they imbraced and acknovvledged The Aunswer All that the publisher hath published here is eyther some foolish conceits of his owne or some frivolous cavils and malicious calumniations against the truth and vs that professe it His conceits of his ovvne knovvledge and our ignorance of his ovvne strength others vveaknes of reclayming and satisfying many by publishing this discourse of the force and plainenes of Mr. Iacobs Replyes c. I omit according to the rule which saith * Prov. 26.4 Aunsvver not a foole according to his foolishnes least thou also be like him But his cavils and calumniations against the truth and vvitnesses thereof being also objected by Mr Iacob in his Replyes I have aunswered in the Treatise following according to the counsell of the same Wisdome which saith †Pro. 26.5 Aunsvver a foole according to his foolishnes least he be vvise in his ovvne eyes The Aunswer therefore to that which here he obiecteth of our assertions and sentences of our former and present acknovvledgement of the Church of England her profession doctrines members Assemblyes c. see it in the Treatise following Pag. 7. 16. 20. 22. 33. 60. 63. 73. 82. 86. 94. 103. 106. 116. 120. 147. 158. 162. 170. 177. 188. 196. 200. c. And here note withall 1. That in all these things we are still of the same mynd as heretofore Mr Barrovv Mr Penry my self and the rest of vs have ben So far are we from crossing denying or any way altering our former judgement and confession as he falsely pretendeth For which see Pag. 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 2. That we do not hate contemne and despise theyr Church which he calleth the Mother that bare vs c. but inasmuch as we have ben members thereof heretofore in which respect she was then in deed our Mother but now do see her to stand in adulterous estate we do therefore plead vvith her that she may take away her fornications out of her sight and her adulteryes from between her brests And we go out of her that we may not partake in her sinnes and that we receyve not of her plagues Both which things we do at the commaundement of God and by warrant of his word wherein he hath straitly charged all his people thus for to walk Hos
2.2 Rev. 18 4. 3. That even of the Church of Rome it may in some respect be said The doctrines and profession of that Church are sufficient to salvation viz. if the truths they hold be considered alone and apart from theyr errors and corruptions and these other also not imputed vnto them For confirmation whereof see in the Treatise following Pag. 47. But now then I aske Are they of England therefore in a grievous schisme in so peremptory condemning and separating from such Christians and Churches Let him aunswer in his next 4. That this D. B. himself hath heretofore held and witnessed that the Church of England standeth in Antichristian estate vvorshippeth God in vayne putteth from her the truth and ordinance of Christ is in her constitution a daughter of Babylon the Mother of vvhoredomes c. and therefore if now he deny it as he hath begun is both runne headlong into an intolerable sinne and extremity without all warrant of Gods word and besides giveth just occasion to be called a fearfull Apostate in so wholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth which before he embraced and acknowledged Advisedly I say as this Preface and his daily practise declareth For advantage sake because he hath done it in loue of himself seeking his owne things not that which is Christs that he might have prayse of men and account in the world that he might be released from imprisonment where somtymes he hath ben a witnes of Christ in bands that he might enjoy the favour of his Frends that he might without feare and disturbance of the Prelates or theyr Officers †Rev. 13 1â— buy and sell that is keep his shop follow his trade make profit and advantage thereby for himself c. This by his course of dealing appeareth to be his case But both him and all others that eyther refuse or forsake the truth we leave vnto God who tryeth the hearts and searcheth the reynes and will give every man according to his works 5. That the word of God being on our side for our profession and practise as in the Discourse following is shewed we neyther do nor need regard this mans or any other theyr tales clamours abuses threats reproches sclaunders c. The mischief of theyr tongues God will bring vpon theyr owne heads if they repent not To him we commit it D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 3. 2. Secondly I would desier the Reader not to be caried away with the multitude of corruptions from the Question or matter in hand viz. Whether the good doctrines of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation in them that in simplicitie of heart beleeve imbrace them notwithstnding the multitude of errors and corruptions which Maister Iohnson repeateth to the contrary But to have an especiall regard vnto the same Which is the maine poinct that hath doeth altogeather deceive them viz. To have an eye to the corruptions in the Ministery worship governement of the Churches of England But never to looke vnto the nature force of them whether simply of their owne nature they overthrow faith Christianity or whether they be held of obstinacy a convicted conscience or not Therefore I pray you marke examine the errors which they reckon vp I desire the same also of them for whose good especially I published this Treatise And after due consideratioÌ„ see if those errors are simply of that nature which before we have noted If they be not as Maister Iohnson nor all the men in the world shall ever be able to prove they are Then do they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * * NotvvithstaÌ„ding they are to many already more as they are Thus they may see how they have all this while ben deceived are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That every error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from salvation in Christ Then should they condemne themselves vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfectioÌ„ which surely though I thinke they hold not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condemning others so peremptorily that jump not even with them in every poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not alike Me thinkes then that they should affoard that favour to others which they would have others affoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errors which they must acknowledge * * Ps 19.12 1 Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite many in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which even common sence humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their myndes I will a little turne my speach vnto them And I would pray them to call to mynde the many errors corruptions which they beare with amonge themselves lay them the errors with vs togeather they shall see their equality Some of you hold it vtterly simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to prove a will take an administratioÌ„ or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes Festivall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these things alâ—ogeather lawfull have doe put them in practise with many other such like things which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would froÌ„ hence note is this Can you among your selves beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inventions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the ‡ ‡ I vvould you knevv the marks of the Beast a litle better marks of the Beast ††Rev. 14. which whosoever receiveth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God shal be tormented in Hell fier for ever And will not your stomackes serve you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in far lesser matters what equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most part so wholy given bend your wits myndes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to them As you sildome or never look into your owne estate or apply the scriptures to your selves But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may fee then by your owne practize all errors are not alike Obiection But yet will some say are not all the scriptures commaundements of God fundamentall to be obeyed alike c. Let such consider of this scripture 1 Cor.
sinnes not to rest in any of his vnrighteousnes neyther to towch any vncleane thing at all 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4.5.6 Isa 52.11 2 Cor. 6.17 Yea in that very * Iudg. 2.3 Scripture which is here quoted by himself the Angel of the Lord joyneth with thorne to their sides destruction by there Gods that is by their worship and religion But they hope God vvill in tyme abolish them And so do we have too Yet we must remember that the Scripture sayth this abolition of them shal be by the Spirit of the Lords mouth a I 〈◊〉 of his Gospell in the testimony of his servants 2 Thes 2 8. Rev. 12.11 14.6.7.8.12 It is not then the yeelding vnto them but the witnessing against them by which we can hope it faith for the abolishment of them Neyther do we doubt but they being thus discovered God will also stirre vp the hearts of Kings and Rulers of the earth as already in part he hath begun to hate that whore of Babylon with her abominations and to make her desolate and naked Rev 17 16. Yet too before they come to do this they have given theyr power and authority to the Beast aÌ„d have also fought but not prevayled against the Lambe Iesus Christ and them that are on his side his called and chosen and faithfull witnesses Rev. 17.13.14 Therefore dare not we runne into theyr extremityes to allow eyther by word or deed the corruptions of Antichrist that Man of sinne to receyve in our forehead or hand the print of his Nauie or marke of his ordinances to pursue to death the witnesses of Christ or any way to approve thereof c. But we wayte the appoynted tyme of the Lord for the full abolition and redresse of all these impietyes And in the meanetyme through the grace of Christ we witnes against them Yet being both thankfull to God for any truth they hold and sory also that with it they joyne the abominations of the Man of sinne and do so set a wall between the Lord and themselues 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.5 Ezech. 43.8 Where he sayth they hold most excellent truths and doctrines of salvation as soundly as any Church vpoÌ„ the face of the earth albeit by this it might seem they have very yll neighbours and for so large comparison due proof also may well be desired yet for the present I will but aske how this speach of his agreeth with the testimony of others among them men of far riper iudgement and better discerning who have testifyed of theyr estate and published that * DemoÌ„stration in the Preface to the Reader Albeit many nations vvhich have renounced the vvhore of Rome are heynously sinfull against the glorious Maiesty of Iesus Christ yet there is none in the vvorld so far out of square as is England in retayning the Popish Hierarchy first coyned in the mystery of iniquity and that filthy sinke of the Canon Lavv vvhich vvas first invented and patched together for the confirmation and increasing of the Kingdome of Antichrist Also that with them “ Mr Gilbyes book Pa. 29 many religions are mixed together off Christ and Antichrist of God and the Divell That †Letter to Mr Hooker Pag. 4 vnder the shevv of inveighing against Puritanes the chiefest poynts of Popish blasphemy are many tymes and in many places by divers meâ— not obscurely broached both in Sermons and in VVriting That ♣ 2 Ad non to Parliam Pag 6. although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout great daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth coÌ„prised in the book of God * Ibid. That theyr ovvne Iniunctions Articles Canons c. may not be broken or offended against but vvith more danger then to offend against the Bible That ‡ Ibid. the Bible must haue no further scope then by these it is assigned That * Demonstr in the Prefa to the Gover they give leave to a man to be any thing sauing a sound Christian That †Admon to Parliam Pag 21. theyr publik Baptisme is fâ—ll of childish and superstitious toyes That “ Mr Gibâ—yes book Pag. 2. they eat not the Lords supper but play a pageant of theyr ovvne to blynd the people and keep them still in superstition to make the silly soules beleev that they have an English Masse and so put no difference betvvixt truth and falsehood betvvixt Christ and Antichrist betvvixt God and the Divell Thus do the best of them professe and testify of theyr estate Shall we then think as D.B. would perswade that there is not any Church vpon the face of the earth vvhich doth more soundly retayne the truth and doctrine of saluation God forbid Or doth he meane as Mr Hooker a rare conceyted man of the Prelates crew speaketh of the Church of Rome ♣ Hookers Ecclesiast Policy Book 3. Pag. 130. that it doth still constantly persist in mayne parts of the Christian truth and is of the family of Iesus Christ Yea * Ibid. Book 5. Pag. 188. that it is doe vnto her to be held and reputed a part of the house of God and a limme of the visible Church of Christ If such be D. B. his meaning here for theyr Church yet this doth but verify the Proverbe which sayth As is the Mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 But no matter so long as he can with an hard forehead pretend that theyr errors do not simply ouerthrovv the truth neyther are held of obstinacy but are also for the most part off great controversy and disputation among the learned Yet marke that he saith for the most part Of them all belike he will not speak it Or if he should might he not likewise plead for the holding or intertayning agayne of Auricular Confession Seven Sacraments Setting vp off candels Reservation of the Sacrament Denying of the Cup to the common people Images in Temples for ornament or remembrance Monks Fryers Nunnes c. Or will not the Lutherans when they are driven to a straite thus alledge for themselves Yea doth not * P. Maâ—t Loc. com Epist ad Pereg Lond. Pag. 1128. c 〈◊〉 against whom Peter Martyr did therefore write very sharpely thus plead for the very Anabaptists And will not Hooker think you pretend as much for his Romish Bethal Or doth he it not in deed when he sayth even of Transubstantiation ‡ Hoâ—k Ecclesiast pol. book 5. Pag. 1â—6 that it is a thing vvhich no vvay can eyther further or hinder vs hovvsoever it stand And “ Ibid. Pag. 186. that the very thing vvhich separateth vtterly and cutâ—eth of cleane from the visible Curch of Christ is playne apostasy direct deny all vtter rejection of the VVHOLE ChristiaÌ„ faith as far as the Sonne is professedly different from infidelity Now compare with this also Mr Iacobs Replyes following Pag. 57. 101. 105. 109. 141. 156. 192. And see if theyr plea for the
and vndersong M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. as if for our faith and worship of God we should turne from the liuing God to dead men Esa 8.20 from the law and testimony of the Lord to the opinions and aberrations of Man I might besides wish the Reader to mind the vnsauerie salt of your raising and reprochfull speaches scattered throughout your book but I omit it And now I come to the particular examination of this Replie of yours You say He that hath but half an eye may see the meaning of the vvordes of your Proposition c. Well Mr. Iacob then your self hauing two eyes might easily see I omitted the Proposition not for the darknes or doubtfulnes of the words but because it yet appeared not how your self vnderstood them whether so as you make the Proposition general admitting no exception or particular and to be restrained And why do you not yet tel vs how you take it Are you afraid to say either the one or the other either that it is general or that it is particular If you make it general admitting no limitation then is your Proposition false Page 5. as I showed in my last aunswer which you cannot gainesay If it be particular then is your Syllogisme a meer Sophisme your Argument of no moment neither in any Mood or Figure How think you Mr. Iacob Is not your reason very sound and Clerklike But you perhaps with two eyes see not so much as others may with half an eye Touching the Assumption to follow your words in order I showed that wheras in the Proposition you spake of a companie so gathered togeather you should for your purpose haue assumed that your Assemblies be companies so gathered And tel me ought you not so to haue don seeing you make but one Syllogisme If you ought is it vvrangling to shew what is wanting in your Reason If you ought not why haue you now made an addition to your Assumption which was not before Is it because I should not stumble at a straw or is it not because the Argument is vnsound without it though you note the contrarie in the margent If it be sound without this why doe you not so proue it If it be not why doe you not confesse it Nay why are you both so conceited in your self and so desirous to blind your Reader as when the fault is shewed you yet you wil not onely not accknowledg it but lay the blame vpon him that would draw you to see it This in deed is not to stumble at a straw but wilfully to fall downe when you might be holpen vp Now although you be vnworthy of any further help Yet because I I would haue you see it I wil once againe labour to make it plaine vnto you if I can beat it into your head You make but one Syllogisme and in it you conclude your publique Assemblies to be true Churches Now you know I suppose that alwaies in a good Argument whatsoeuer is in the Conclusion must needes be in one of the premisses before But in yours it is not so Your conclusion is of your publique assemblies and yet you neuer spake of them before in either of the premisses Can you by this perceive how extremely faulty and vnsound your Argument is But you think to help your self by saying you meant so much Sure you are neare driuen M. Iacob For what wrangler could not so help out any matter Yet here you stay not Euen your words you say imply as much And do they indeed Tell me then whether here you include and defend all the publique Assemblies of the Land as they now stand or but some of them whether those that haue dumbe Ministers aswell as those that haue Preachers whether those that haue non residents aswell as those that haue their Incumbents whether the Cathedral Churches aswell as the Parishes For all these are by Law Churches among you the Cathedrall the Parishionall those that haue non residents or humbe dogs with fower Sermons a yeare Pluralities c. Then tell me whether all these Assemblies of yours be companies by Lavv gathered together in that profession practise wherof you speak Besides where the words in your Proposition were of companies so gathered together c. and you in your addition to the Assumption haue in steed thereof companies gathered together in the doctrines c. why are you so vnconstant and fearefull in your words why do you not keep the same termes why made you not the addition as was showed you it ought to haue ben Did you think that then I would and might the more call vpon you for proof thereof That belike was the matter For in deed I do and must needs so much the more cal for it And how will you ever prove it that your Assemblies are companies so gathered together that is by a free voluntary profession of the truths among you * Act. 2.41 11.24 Psal 110.3 Esa 44.5 2 Cor. 6.17.18 and 9.13 Zach. 8.21 23. 1 Thes 1.6 such as is in true CHRIstians and in the manner of gathering euery true Church when as you are by Lavv compelled so to professe or rather to submit to that profession Yea and by compulsion of Lavv are gathered not only in and vnto those truths but in and to Antichristian errors which cannot stand therewithall I pray you M. Iacob iustifie by the Scriptures such profession to be that which is in true Christians and such gathering to be that which is in true Churches Next where you charge me with strange dealing for saying your vvriting declared that you so took the Proposition as vvhatsoeuer ‡ These vvords among them Mr. Iacob leaueth out among you be iointly together held ioyned vvith that vvhich othervvise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notvvithstanding you are so to be reputed as if there vvere no such additions or commixtures First speak plainely whether you doe so take your Proposition or not Whatsoeuer you aunswer it will be against your self and manifest the weaknes of your Argument as I haue declared a litle before Secondly why wrote you not all my words but left out som of them was it because you thought that would haue cleared me of strange dealing and left it vpoÌ„ your own head Thirdly where you say in all your vvriting you haue no such vvord no syllable no letter sounding to that sence Lift vp your eares Mr Iacob and tel me how these wordes of yours do sound in your hearing †M Iacobs 1. Reply to the 1. Reason follovving Christ and some outward ceremonies and orders of Antichrist are joined together among vs vvhich things yet vve think to be Christs ovvne Againe The ‡ His 1. Reply to the 4. Reason fâ—llovving outvvard manner of calling to the Ministery and some outvvard ceremonies vsed by Mahomet and the Pope doe not destroy faith true Christianity And yet more plainely when you say *
doctrine Now if you cannot prooue your Assemblies to be such you may see your own witnesses euen your owne doctrine and book giue verdict against you If you can prooue them to be such where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in this your owne description of a visible Church H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 1. Excep THis your first Exception is the 19. Article of this very book vvhich vvee alleadge vvherein a visible Church is described to be a Congregation where the pure word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all those things that of necessitie are requisite Novv this description you reiect not but our practise say you is contrary and therefore vve haue no true visible Churches nor Christians I ansvver vvherein is it contrarie in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite doth not all this Christian vvorld see and confesse that our publique practise is agreeable to our profession in that book Nay say you but proue you your assemblies to be such and if you can proue them where and what are your proofs if you doe not you are confuted A vvorthy confutation sure and very Clerklike As if my Tenaunt should denie me rent for my house and land yea and goe to Lavv vvith me for the fee simple vvhich he hath holden in ferme of me these 40. yeares and I haue hetherto quietly enioyed from my Auncestors time out of minde Novv he suing me at lavv for that vvhich I thus possesse saith proue your right to this land vvhich you haue if you can vvhat and vvhere be your proofes let me see them Or els I your Tenaunt vvill haue it This vvere goodly dealing vvere it not and very lavvfull EueÌ„ so doe you asking proofes of vs for that vvhich vve possesse haue possessed before you made any question about it nay you your selues held part of this possession of vs and vvith vs till yesterday vvhen you began first to lay claime in this sorte to the vvhole Novv your reason is let vs prooue it to be ours where be our proofs Or els you will not accknowledg vs any longer see I pray you your owne equity If this suffice not to make you desist I leaue it to the Iudges to giue sentence Secondly note further Our Article saith A Church is where the word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all things that of necessitie are requisite Where vveâ— plainly insinuate that many errours may be added and truthes wanting in a visible Church but nothing which is absolutely necessarie Now what doth our practize in Preaching or Sacraments want that is absolutely necessarie without which there cannot be any true preaching or Sacraments at all shevv it vs because vve see it not our selues I assure you vntil then your first reason hath no reason in it Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply vpon the 1. Excep HOw fit or vnfit the description is I neither did nor doe examine Onely because it is your owne profession and your practise is coÌ„trary vnto it I did from hence take the first Exception requiring of you to proue your Assemblies to be such or els to know that your owne doctrine is a witnes against your selues Now in your Reply haue you according to the particulers of that description iustified your Church assemblies Nothing lesse Let this therefore be first obserued But what then haue you done First pretending as if you repeated our exception and your owne description you leaue out diuers particulers of speciall moment there expressed As first where the visible Church is described to be a congregation of faithfull men you leaue out these wordes of faithfull men belike knowing that your Congregations which are holds of all foule spirits and cages of euery vncleane and hatefull bird Reuel 18.2 cannot therefore iustly be accounted congregations of faithfull men Secondly where the description speaketh of the Sacraments to be duely ministred you leaue out this word duely because it crosseth your womens Baptisme priuate Communion receiuing of the most prophane and their seed among you c. Lastly where in the description it is required both for preaching the pure word and due administration of the Sacraments that they be don according to Christes ordinance you leaue out these words according to Christes ordinance belike because this clause quite overthroweth both your Antichristian Prelacy from whih al the inferior Ministers among you receiue power and authority to preach and minister the SacrameÌ„ts and your Preisthood and Deaconry wherein you all administer and your stinted imposed prayers exhortations crosses in the forehead questions to Infantes vse of the same wordes in English in ministring the Lords Supper which the Papists vsed and still vse in Latine not retaining the words of Christes institution and such like Thus hauing left out such particulers as were of speciall moment against you yet you demaund vvherein your paactize is contrary to your profession and description of a visible Church in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite We aunswer in all the particulers of that description aforesayd For first your Church-assemblies are not congregations of faithfull men but a confusion of all manner of people though neuer so wicked and prophane The ‡ D. VVâ—iâ—g booke pag 176. and 178 Prelates and Formalists affirm that your Church is full of Atheistes Papistes Idolaters Drunkards Whoremongers and such like The * Sermon on Rom. 12 pag. 65. and 66. Demonstration in the preface forward Preachers likewise that in your Church are svvarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erronious and heretical Sectaries Witches Charmers Sorcerers Murtherers Theeues Adulterers Lyars c. Finally that a man may be any thing among you sauing a sound Christian These things being so as both your estate and writings beare witnes iudge your selues whether your Assemblies can be accounted Congregations of faithfull men or no which is the first point of the description aforesaid Secondly in the same description is required That the pure vvord of God be preached according to Christes ordinance But with you are allowed besides the word of God the Apocrypha books and in steed of preching the word the reading of Homilies as may appeare in that ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1502. book of Articles alledged by your self Yet who knoweth not that in those bookes are diuers vntruths errors contradictions blasphemies and such like So farre are they from being the pure word of God or agreeing therewith Moreouer when and where the word is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ And the Ministers that preach it do in your constitution alway stand subiect to be silenced suspended excommunicated and degraded by the Prelates and Ordinaries to whom when you are made Priests you promise and when you enter vpon a benefice you sweare Canonicall obedience Neither are you suffered any further to preach the word and truth of God then agreeth
testimonies of theirs if the case were not as cleare as the Sunne at noone day But you say I depraue their meanings vtterly Why so I pray you Because they say not that all your Assemblies are such nor your vvhole Assemblies though they graunt very many such to be among you that is manie of your Church to be Atheists Papists Drunkards Whoremongers Thieves Murtherers Witches c. Alas M. Iacob it pittieth me to see your extreame follie and evill conscience Your follie that see not how both they and you giue the cause in this graunt and therby also testifie that I do not at all deprave their meanings Is it possible that your Church-assemblies should be full of such knowen vngodly persons and yet be Congregations of faithful men It never entred into my thought much lesse did I ever say it that your whole Assemblies are such I know and willingly accknowledg many of your Church not to be so for which I praise God Alwaies I except your publike worship and Idolatrie wherein all even the best among you are inwrapped This I said that your Assemblies are not congregations of faithful men but a confusion of all manner of people though never so vvicked And this you see do your owne men testifie Adde herevnto that both they and your self graunt your Assemblies herein ought to be reformed If they be already Congregations of faithfull men what reformation would you haue in this behalf But if their estate herein be such as they ought to be reformed why are you so shamles and foolish thus to speake as you do in all this matter Besides your folly you bewray an evill conscience in asmuch as you denie that thing the light whereof doth so shine in your conscience as even whiles you would shift it of you are constrained to acknowledg it whether you will or not Where you speak of your owne men that they deny not your Assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be seperated from it is to no purpose at all saue against your selfe For first though they speak it not in these very syllables yet the thing it self necessarily followeth vpon their words It is without question that the heathen Poets did themselues worship Idols yet notwithstanding sometimes they so spake in their writings as Paull doth * Act. 17.28.29 from thence conclude that not Idols but the true God onely is to be worshipped Had it now ben of waight for any of them to have alleadged against the Apostle that theit Poets did not deny Idols to be worshipped Yet you think it sufficient to withstand the truth with any such pretence Let this once spoken serve for aunswer to all your reproches wherewith you burden me many times for the collections which I deduce necessarily from your owne and other mens writings Secondly you are to know that it is not materiall against me whatsoever your men doe graunt or denie But against you it is who abide in the same Ministerie and of the same Church with them For that which you speak of the Church of the Iewes both auncient and in the time of Christ referring vs to another place hereafter in this book for proof of your comparison look you there also for aunswer therevnto And hitherto of the first point of your Article and profession differing from your practise and constitution For the second if you professe to preach the pure vvord of God as this Article requireth and yet againe both in profession and practise as here you acknowledg preach the impure and lying writings of Men such as be the Apocrypha books and your Homilies what is or can be more contrarie If your Article meane othervvise as you pretend it is full of deceit Neither shall any ever know what your profession is if your Articles doe thus crosse one another and your practise also agree with the worst But to cleare this point I aunswer furthermore 1. that it is a point of necessitie requisite that Gods vvord onely be taught For which see these Scriptures Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 Psal 119.113 Prov. 30.5.6 Esa 8.20 and 59.21 Ier. 23 16.28 Ioh. 5.39 Col. 3.16 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 and 2 Tim. 3.16.17 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19 Thus by your owne exposition of this Article the Assumption of your maine Argument falleth and your Churches remaine in false constitution which is the question betweene vs. See the third Exception follovving In the aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply 2. The Apocrypha books maintained in the Church which you say is both your profession and practise overthroweth the truth of Christian religion and bringeth in Iudaisme Popery Atheisme and what not 3. Even in the Church of Rome where these books also are received yet withal the pure word is so preached among them by Law as no doubt to some is sufficient co salvation For proof whereof see the Rhemes Testament in their note vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Yet this hindreth not but that their Church maintaineth false doctrine as in that place also may be seen and standeth in false constitution Neither therefore can this help you It resteth then that you show the pure worde only to be preached among you by Lavv and that also according to Christes ordinance which yet you doe not neither can doe And therefore it is your self that say nothing but that you both professe practise errors Now it is well the truth so shineth in your heart as you confesse your Churches faile from the pure vvord in sundry lesser points Yet I pray you reckon vp these points in particular that by the worde of God it may be seen whether they be lesser or greater then you would beare vs in hand Then tell vs in whose power it is in your Church to redresse them Also why they are not redressed seeing you know them and haue ‡ Rev. 2.16.17 3.3 Mat. 18.15.16.17.20 1 Cor. 5.4.5 Lev. 4.13 2 Cor. 10.4.5.6 rules given by Christ for such cases if your Churches be his Lastly why you for your part abide in knowen errors and keepe not the truth and commaundements of Christ As touching that you say though they be errors yet they are not fundamentall neither doe in their owne nature abolish from Christ the fit place of handling this point followeth in the second Exception and seventh Reason to which places I referre it Yet in the meane time because here we are treating of the Apocrypha books tell me whether in retaining them you retaine not such errors as your self account fundamentall c. For example the book of Tobit teacheth that †Tob. 12.12.15 Angels doe present and bring to memory our prayers before the Lord. Now this honour you know is peculiar to Christ who “ 1 Tim. 2.5 onely is the Mediator of Intercession That Apocrypha doctrine therefore is blasphemous and an error in your sence as I take it fundamentall Adde herevnto that * 2 Mach. 12.43.44.45 offring vp of a sinne offring to God for
Auricular confession such like greeuous errors And yet notwithstāding dyed constantly for the truthes they saw some for one and some for another as God made manifest vnto them But may we now therefore so professe and practise in these things as they did Or if we should were their ignorance and errors a sufficient defence for vs Yet thus would you beare vs in hand Furthermore tell vs if M. Latimer and others did not forsake the Prelacy and functions they had before time received And Maister Ridley at his death repent that he had ben so earnest for the remnants of Popery in his time retained Besides who knoweth not that when M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. died Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had them selves nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for And not that onely but were members of that persecuted Church in Queene Maries dayes which was seperated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned in covenaunt by voluntary profession to obey the truth of Christ and to witnes against the abominations of Antichrist As they also did vnto death in the truth they saw though otherwise being but as it were in the twylight of the Gospell they had their wants and errors Yet who is so blind or besotted as not to see that their errors may not be our rules neither can be our warrant but rather that we ought after their example faithfully to stand in and for whatsoever trueth God revealeth vnto vs by his word And that otherwise those holy Martyrs shall rise in iudgment against all such as either withhould the trueth in vnrighteousnesse or in any respect refuse to walke therein Finally seeing GOD hath given vs “ Psal 119.105.128 Gal. 1.8.9 6.16 Deut. 12.32 Rev. 22.18.19.20 his vvord to be the light of our feete and rule of our liues and religion What meane you to lead vs from it to the aberrations of any men whatsoever Should not ‡ Esa 8.19 all people enquier at God or would you have vs go from the liuing to the dead From God and his word to men and their errors This doubtlesse is that wherevnto you would bring vs and whereby you mislead your favorites as will yet further appeare by that which followeth For what say you next Secondly you tell vs and wish it to be noted as we also do That Christes ordinances be of two sortes either written or vnwritten the first necessarie the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion onely These say you are writtten The second touching outward orders in the Church and all outward governement and ceremonies These you say are not written but arbitrary at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate Thus you say you hold and practise and thinke no Scripture is against it For aunswer hereof First we aske what Scripture you have for it Secōdly we alledg against it these Scriptures and the like 1 Tim. 3.15 5. chap. 6.13.14 Tit. 1.5 c. Act. 1.3 2.40 c. 6. chap. 14.23 15. chap. 19.9 20.7.17.28 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Ephe. 4.11.12 1 Thes 5.12.13.14 Phil. 1.1.5 Heb. 3.1.2.3 13.17 Iam. 5.14 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 1 Cor. 4.17 5. ◠11. 12. 14. Chap. and 16.1.2 Gal. 6.1.6 2 Thes 3.6.12.14.15 Mat. 18.15.16.17 28.18.19.20 Thirdly let it be observed that your self here graunt and cannot deny but all the outvvard gouernement and ceremonies of your Church are invented and arbitrary at the pleasure of man and not vvritten in the vvord of God Wherevpon it followeth that they are none of Christes and therefore not to be ioyned to at all Fourthly see how neare you are driven that are glad to run back into the Papists tentes where yet you know there is no succour Before you pleaded possession time out of mind now you tell vs of ordināces vnwritten c. Are not these meere popish shiftes even the old worne arguments of Antiquity and Vnvvritten verities so often and so much stood vpon by the Papists Alas that you should plead to be true Christians and yet thus openly take part with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and wil verifie his word That they which receiue not the loue of the trueth 2 Thes 2.10.11.12 that they may be saued he vvill send them strong delusion to beleeue lyes that they may be damned Fifthly you make the ordinances touching outward gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither vvritten at all This is very strange divinity And thus I shew it It is an ordinance not only concerning the inward but also the outward governemēt of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof Is it therefore no matter of faith It concerneth the outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the Church or no Doth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the vvord and hearing of it preached administration and receiuing of the Sacraments are matters cōcerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church Doe they not therefore touch fayth Admonition and excommunication concerne also the outward governement of the Church Do they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this Divinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper being Ceremonies shall with you be no matters of faith at all Yet here you stay not but adde moreover That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church be arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate not vvritten nor certaine c. Wherevpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the Scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or Canterbury be head and Archbishop of the Church of God 2. Whether Iewes onely of the Tribe of Leui may now minister the holy things of God in his Church 3. Whether Christ hath given any giftes and set any Offices in his Church for the Ministery and guidance thereof 4. Whether prayer must be in a knowen or vnknowen toung 5. Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored 6. Whether the Church may excomunitate 7. Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunicatiō be to be regarded 8. Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacraments 9. Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other Ceremonies and Sacrifices of the Lavv be now to be vsed 10. Whether the Heathenish sacrifices and vvorship be to be ioyned withall 11. Whether creame oyle salt spittle crossing and coniuring may be vsed in Baptisme 12. Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to be given to the lay people as you cal them 13. Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the Church 14. Whether the Iewish and the Popish Vestments Fasts and holy dayes are to be observed And a
before But now because you bid me speak out what difference I put between your Churches and the Martyrs as also between you and my self holding these things of late with you hearken and I will tell you againe First for the Martyrs in former times mark these differences Differences betvveene the Martirs and Church of Engl. 1. Greater light of the truth is now come into the world then was in those daies but you loue darkenes rather then light For still you walk in darknes Ioh. 3.19 Ephes 5.11 2. They witnessed against the abominations of Antichrist then called in question to the losse of their libertie and lives Your Church doth not so against the remnants of Poperie now cōtroverted but do either openly defend them or fearefully submit vnto them 3. They consisted not of swarmes of Atheists adulterers drunkards and all sorts of people good and bad even knowen wicked ones mixed together in one body as your Church doth 4. Such of them as were Ministers were degraded from their Antichristian functions so are not yours 5. They died not members of Antichrists Church nor for any error they held but for the truth You stil remaine members of Antichistian Churches both withstanding the truth and maintaining errors 6. They were and died members of a true visible Church viz that persecuted Church in Queen Maries daies which was separated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary submission therevnto though in that time of ignorance they had their wants and errors You continew members of a false constituted Church vnseparated from the world yeelding subiection to Antichristian enormityes against the ordinances of Iesus Christ 7. They refused not the truth offred neyther resisted those that did iustly reprove theyr errors but your Church doth both as appeareth by your continuall practise and by the books and Acts of Parliament made openly and with authority against vs for witnessing the truth 8. Your Prelats Priests and people that is your Churches in your estate are no Martyrs but children of them which killed the Martyrs and do at this day fill vp the measure of your forefathers persecuting to death such as haue the testimony of Iesus This did not the Martyrs Are not you then the men that white the toombes of the Martyrs which were in former tymes and yet your selves imprison banish and kill the witnesses of Iesus that are among you at this day Take heed you hearden not your hearts but tremble at your fearefull estate and please not your selues in vnrighteousnes by the error of any neither blesse your selves still in iniquitie Hitherto of the difference between the Martyrs and your Churches Now for my self I confesse as I did * Pag. 8. before of the Martyrs that whiles I was Minister and member of your Church in that constitution I stood in Antichristian estate Yet doubt I not but euen then being of the elect of God I was partaker through faith of the mercy of God in Christ to saluation And this I hope is the case of divers among you But for my self I haue now the more assurance in that God hath both drawen me out of that Antichristian estate giuing me to see and to forsake it and hath planted me in his true Church and household giuing me to receiue his truth in much affliction with ioy of the holy Ghost 1 Thes 1.6 But as for you in your estate besides that yet you are not members of any true visible Church you do moreover abide in grosse confusion false Ministery Antichristian worship and other abominations by the word of God already discovered Now whiles you thus remaine you cannot in that estate approve your selves to have the promise of saluation whereof by the word of God you can be assured vntill you depart out †Rev. 18.4.5 Act. 2.40.47 Micah 2.10 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Ephe. 2.12.19 of that Babylō and save your selues from that froward generatiō being also by the Lord added to his true Church Which mercy I hope God daily doth and will vouchsafe many among you belonging to his election Thus you see how notwithstanding any thing we eyther do or can acknowledge touching the Martyrs or ourselves heretofore yet still we affirme and prove your estate to be Antichristiā So far are we frō graunting your Assumption as here you fancy with your self Your vaine questions Whether your whole assemblyes all and every of your assemblyes erre of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience whether we know the heart and conscience of men c. How fond and friuolous are they All of you erre by your owne graunt Whether any of you do it with a convicted conscience let God iudge who knoweth the heart Your self it seemeth deny not this to be the case of some among you Howsoever seeing you confesse that you erre why do you and the rest being so perswaded stil abide in error Is it because you †Ioh. 3.19 love darknes more then light Or because ‡ Act. 28.26 27. when you see yet you wink with your eyes least you should convert to the Lord and be healed If you would not leaue such as you imagine see it not how wil you ever know whether they that refuse do see it or not And why have you not al this time made it knowen to them and donne what lyeth in you to draw them from error Or having done it and finding them obstinate in evill yea persecuters of the truth revealed why have you not after the ‡ Act. 2.40.41 13.45.46.51 18.6 and 19.9 28.24 c. example of the Apostles separated from such and taught others to do the like Above all why plead you for their estate to be good warrantable in the way of salvation notwithstanding their errors and abominations Is not this to dawbe with vntempered morter Is it not to prophesie peace to the wicked and to promise them life to sow pillowes vnder their elbowes and to strengthen their hands in evill that they should not returne from their wicked way Ier. 23.16.17 Ezech. 13. Chap. Mal. 2.17 Where you say if we knew some convicted in conscience yet it serueth not our turne vnles all be so conuicted sure you mind not what you speak Did Christ ever give such a rule to his Church Or should there ever be Church separated from the world if this course were kept Besides what meane you by all being convicted Whether all in a house or all in a towne or all in a kingdome or all in the world Whether all of echser men and women of all ages yong and old of all estates hy and low rich and poore bond and free c. What also by being convicted Whether when sufficient is showed to convince men though they see it not or when they see it yet acknowledg it not or when they see and acknowledg it yet notwithstanding persist in their former estate or if vnto all these
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it
where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false
3.12.15 amōgst many other which plainly proveth Ansvver that many errors so they be not of obstinacy may be built by a Christian vpon the fundation Christ Iesus yet be a true Christian still For which see further Maister Iacobs answer in pag. 192. Againe there are errors simply fundamētall which of their owne nature cleane abolish frō Christ such are the errors of the Arians concerning the Deitie of Christ of the Anabaptists concerning his humanitie of the Papists cōcerning Iustification by workes praying to trusting in Saincts and such like which directly raze the very foundation But that any one or all of the errors in the churches of Englād are of this force as you would seem to hold by all your 9. Reasons is most impious and vngodly to affirme And as Maister Iacob very well noteth in his answer to every one of them You therby overthrow the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes from being christians who held the very same corruptions in their ministery worship c. which is now held in England But say you the Martyrs saw ne further Then you confesse against your selves that our errors doe not simply abolish from Christ as you every where affirme most vngodly especially in defence of your 7. Reason But that if men in these things see no further they are in the same estate with the Martyrs Now if you would have your Reasons hold you must prove the churches of England all conuicted in conscience which I hope you will not go about to doe Thus much concerning the nature of our errors whether they be of obstinacie or against the fundation directly which is the Second note I desier to be observed The Aunswer This second note of his is as foolish as frivolous as contumelions as the former See it here in his chaunging of the question between vs in his lessening of theyr corruptions in his mismatching of things vnequall in his abusing our difference of judgement and reviling off vs in his perverting the Scriptures and example of the Martyrs c. The Question between vs is not as he pretendeth but thus First concerning them VVhether the good doctrines of the Church of England being joyned together vvith theyr Antichristian errors and corruptions do make theyr Assemblyes and people in that estate to be true Churches and Christians Then concerning vs VVhether notvvithstanding the good doctrines professed in theyr Church vve may and ought to separate from theyr Antichristian Ministery vvorship confusion c. That thus the question standeth between vs themselves cannot deny though they seek to alter and turne from it here and every where Therefore do we also desier thee good Reader to mynd it well and not to be carryed away with the view of theyr good doctrines alone from the question and matter in hand but alway to have an especiall regard therevnto Notwithstanding if the question were as here he pretendeth perthen both his owne and all Mr Iacobs defence of the Church of England is even thus also quite ouerthrowen For now it appeareth that both of them do vnderstand theyr Argument following as if it were thus propounded Whatsoever is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church Mr Iacobs Argument as it is novv vnderstood by themselves notwithstanding the multitude of errors and corruptions retayned among them But the whole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation viz. such a one as in simplicity of heart beleveth and embraceth it And the publik Assemblyes of England are in theyr estate companyes so gathered together that is they do in simplicity of heart so beleev and embrace Therefore it is sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches notwithstanding the multitude of theyr errors and corruptions The Argument then being thus propounded as by this note of his it must needs be marke I pray you what followeth herevpon 1. That as it hath ben propounded hitherto it concludeth not the Question but is lame both in the Proposition and Assumption as I have noted more particularly hereafter Pag. 4. 10. 12. 13. 93. 97. 99. 106. 2. That in theyr estate we must mynd not theyr good doctrines alone but theyr errors and corruptions withall Of which there is never a word in all theyr Argument See it Pag. 3 4. 63. 171. 172. 3. That the falsehood both of the Proposition and Assumption is now so manifest as the very propounding of them thus is sufficient to refute them But for this also see further Pag. 5. 11. 12. 13. Now to speak here but of the latter braunch of the Assumption onely let them tell vs iff themselues think theyr Assemblyes and members thereof do in simplicity of heart beleev and practise the good doctrines of theyr Church Nay will they say that the Prelates the chief officers and pillars of theyr Church do so embrace them Not to speak of the many thousands of theyr Church who do not so much as know the doctrines of truth retayned and 〈◊〉 them So far are they from professing and practising them in syncerity And yet are they aswell as the best members of theyr Church partakers of theyr Sacraments Ministers Governours copartners of theyr Worship Assemblyes procedings c. 4. Finally mynd that the Argument and Replyes following speak of the profession and practise of all theyr Assemblyes and members thereof as they stand according to Law Pag. 3.6 But here he speaketh onely of such among them as do in simplicity of heart beleev and embrace theyr good doctrines and therefore neyther of all theyr Assemblyes nor of all the members of them See then here how insufficiently they have reasoned and how deceitfully they have dealt all this while Besides the question being of a visible Church he speaketh onely of such as may belong to the invisible Which is not to the poynt in controversy For the profession and practise according to Law spoken of in the Argument may be knowen and discerned of men the simplicity of the heart here spoken of God onely kooweth Thus with wynding in and out they have lost both the question and themselves too I feare if they returne not in tyme and with simplicity of heart vnto the Lord. The nature and force of theyr corruptions derived from Antichrist the deadly enemy of Iesus Christ is purposely handled in the discourse following in the 1. 2. 3. 6. 7. and 9. Reasons The Apostle saith that even * 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 the forbidding of Meats and Mariage is a departing from the faith Mr Beza speaking particularly of the Church of England and but of fower or five off theyr corruptions viz plurality of benefices licences of Non-residency licences to marry and to eat flesh saith that ‡ Bez. Epist 8 the Antichristian Church hath not
any thing more intolerable yea that the retayning of these is not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ Now if fower or five of theyr corruptions yea if two of them be a manifest departing from the faith of Christ what may we think of theyr whole Hierarchy and multitude of Antichristian abominations retayned among them besides Yet this mans conscience is so feared as he feareth not to say though they were thrice as many as they are yet they are not to the purpose for which they are vrged that is to convince the Antichristian constitution of theyr Church and to warrant separation therefrom Which is as much as if he should say more plainely Let the Apostels say of it what they will and let Christ himself commaund vs never so straitly to separate from such and to towch no vncleane thing at all 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 18.4 2 Cor. 6.17 Yet it is to no purpose if D. B. and Mr Iacob with theyr consorts agree otherwise The Anabaptisticall perfection then whereof he dreameth he may well apply to himself and his fellowes who will be perfit and holy in theyr way if theyr owne faucyes perswade them so albeit they stand in never so many knowen errors and those also of Antichrist yea and peremptorily condemne all such as partake not in theyr sinnes but separate from theyr Antichristian worship and Ministery as Christ hath commaunded The way aÌ„d coÌ„stitutioÌ„ of our Church is according to the TestameÌ„t of Christ Weakly in deed aÌ„d with much imperfectioÌ„ do we walk therein by reasoÌ„ of sinne that doth so compasse aÌ„d cleave fast vnto vs. Neyther was there ever in the world any Churches or Christians whose case was not such Nor can we ever look for other vpon the earth Even the Prophets and Apostles have thus acknowledged of themselves Esa 64.6 9. Psal 19.12.13 and 103.10 Iob. 9.30.31 Hab. 3.1 Rom. 7.14 c. 1 Cor. 13.9.12 Heb. 12 1. Iam. 3.2 1 Pet. 4.17.18 1 Ioh. 1.8.9.10 and 2.1.2 But should we therefore be perswaded to abide in knowen errors or to iustify such Churches as stand in the way and constitution of Antichrist Common sence might teach to reason otherwise and to discerne between things that differ so much as these doe one from another For our difference of judgement in some things if it were as he saith yet it would nothing availe them The * Act. 11. 15. and 21. Chap. Rom. 14. ch 1 Cor. 8. and 10. chap. Phil. 3.15.16 Christians in the Primitive Churches differed in iudgement amoÌ„g themselves in divers waighty things some concerning Iudaisme some concerning Paganisme c. And synce that tyme “ See the Acts and Mounuents c. the Martyrs in Queen Maryes dayes and former ages did in sundry things and those of great moment and concerning Antichrists religion differ in judgement one from another Should these therefore have approved and taken part with the Iewish Heathnish or Popish Churches in theyr other errors wherein they did joyntly see and witnesse the truth against them Or will he say there was therefore no equity in theyr dealing because they did it not Or that they were so vvholy given and bent theyr vvits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never lookt into theyr ovvne estate or applyed the Scriptures to themselues Yet thus absurdly and vnconscionably doth this man reason against vs. Off which more hereafter Now for the particulars here mentioned the first which is of swearing by a book is an impudent vntruth so far as ever I knew or heard of any among vs. Not onely some but all of vs hold it simply vnlawfull to sweare by a book It is * Deut. 6.13 the Name of the Lord onely by which all men ought to sweare Thus we do all professe and practise In deed about the ceremony of laying the hand vpon the book thereby to signify that we do take the oath there hath ben question some thinking that it might be so done as †Gen. 24.2.3.9 Abrahams servant when he took an oath put his hand vnder his Maisters thigh and persware vnto him onely by the Lord God of heaven and earth or as Abraham did himself lift vp his hand to the Lord when he sware or vowed vnto him as we read Gen. 14.22 Others thinking that because it hath ben superstitiously abused and still may nourish in the ignorant the error of swearing by the book that therefore it should not be done 1. Thes 5.22 And notwithstanding this difference yet all of vs for the reasons last alleadged think it better to be left then retayned still and some other ceremony free from such pollution and daunger as the lifting vp of the hand to heaven or such like to be vsed instead thereof For probates of vvils taking of administration suing c. some it may be think that the things themselves being in theyr nature meerly Civill and the ordering of them being put over to the Doctors and Professors of the Civill Law they might thus far be admitted And this so much the rather because if all the Popish Hierarchy and Canons were quite abolished out of the Land as they ought to be Yet an order for these things notwithstanding were still to be had and such as are skilfull in the Civill Law might be employed thereyn aswell as any other of the Common wealth being by the Prince and Magistraeâ—s appoynted therevnto Others thinking that inasmuch as these causes Courts aÌ„d Officers are now in theyr estate committed to the Prelates whose functions are meerly Antichristian that therefore they should not be admitted at all Yet here agayne all of vs agree in this that the whole Hierarchy with whatsoever belongeth thereto is wholy to be abandoned and refused and no spirituall communion to be had therewith at all For shutting vp of shops on Holy dayes and Festivall dayes c. as he doth Popishly terme them What if some think that our bodyes goods and lands being subiect in the Lord as they ought to the Magistrates that therefore they may at theyr appointment then shift by theyr shops as they do on the Queens day or such like solemnityes And others think that forasmuch as theyr Holydayes both are popish dayes and popishly vsed for theyr divine worship that therefore they should not shut vp theyr shops on these dayes more then any other Yet all agree in this that these dayes though the Prince commaund it never so straily are no more to be set apart or vsed for publik worship then any other of the sir week-dayes Also that they need not leave theyr work any more on those dayes then any other whatsoever These are the particulars he nameth If he could have mentioned any other of greater moment you may be sure they should not have ben omitted Let him know then that we â—o and ought
to account it among the mercyes of God towards vs that our difference in judgement is but such specially considering that there is so great a mostery of iniquity in the religion of Antichrist throughout al the parts thereof as iff it were possible the very elect should be deceived that we are as it were but newly and as per weakly come out of that spirituall Babylon that the particulars here obiected were never publikly debated and disenssed among vs that as the Primitive Churches so ours have ben exercised not onely with many other questions and controversyes but with sundry perverse hypocriticall contentious and fantasticall spirits which have much troubled vs and caused the truth to be evill spoken of they creeâ—ing in at first vnder a show of Holones and so for a tyme continewing vntill God by one meanes or other discovered them and in his tyme cast them out from among vs finally that than the best on earth know here but in part 1 Cor. 13.9.12 and therefore no marvell if discerning but according to the measure we have receyved and this measure bring divers in every one our judgements many tymes and in sundry things differ vntill God reveale more and further Besides that even by this meanes we might learne to beare one with another and if any will yet be contentious that they might know we have no such custome nor the Churches of God The vse then that we are to make of such difference of judgement is not that we should therefore abide in knowen errors our selves or approve knowen evill in others or joyne with any false worship and Ministery in the service of God or refuse any truth revealed vnto vs wherein we do all agree in one but that being delivered out of the power of darknes which is in the Kingdome of Sathan and Antichrist we should walk together as children of the light holding forth the truth wherevnto we are come joyntly and faithfully agaynst all adversaryes thereof and wayting with pacyence till God reveale further for the more vniting of our mynds wherein any shall yet differ one from another And this doth the Scripture teach aÌ„d warrant vnto vs Phil. 3.15.16 Rom. 14.5.6 But now if any erring in theyr judgement do not so rest in peace but will needs proceed further to spread theyr difference among the brethren to vrge and pursue the practise thereoff to disquyet the rest that are contrary mynded to refuse communion with the Church vnles they would ioyne or consent vnto them therein then are such being first convinced and remayning obstinate to be further proceded withall by the Church as the case and theyr cariage shall requier And that so as if any be found but to be contentious they are euen therefore to be reproved and if they cease not to be cast out and removed from the Church For which see 1 Cor. 11.16 Gal. 5.12 Math. 18.17 Rom. 2.8 Iam. 3 13-18 Thus we are perswaded and thus we walk and practise Now let the Reader iudge how frivolous this his obiection is seing there may be sundry things wherein the brethren of the same Church may differ in iudgement among themselves and yet notwithstanding walk togeather in the same faith testimony and fellowship wherein God hath vnited theyr mynds none of them being contentious to disquyet the Church or the members thereof and all being ready to receyve the truth which God by his word shall further make knowen whatsoever it be And this I dare boldly say that whosoever shall not thus hold and walk they shall not onely condemne the Apostles and Primitive Churches together with the Martyrs whose examples I alledged before but shall fynd by experience that neyther any Churches neyther so much as two or three men shall ever be able to keep fellowship any while together among themselves Note also that when such please themselves most in theyr contentions and confusions thinking they do God service therein even then they do most displease him who is the God not of confusion but of peace as we see in all the Churches of the Saints 1 Cor. 14.33 This I thought needfull to write being thus occasioned concerning this poynt I could also put him in mynd of the manifold and vnreconciliable difference of iudgement which is in theyr Church and the members thereof between the Prelates Reformists Newters and Ambo-dexters with the like But I will not stand vpon it Mynd but here what Mr Iacob professeth openly in the Treatise following Pag. 69. viz. that the things vvhich the State of theyr Church holdeth to be Christs ovvne he holdeth to be Antichrists Then which what can be more contrary Will they now therefore affoard that favour to the Papists Anabaptists and other Antichristians which they would should be affoarded to themselves namely That as they would be accounted true Christians through theyr faith in Christ notwithstanding theyr errours which they must acknowledge are infinite many euen in theyr Church-constitution so they should account of the aforesaid Antichrists and others in the like case Or will he now say that euen common sence and humanity vvould requier them to graunt this When he is at leysure to write such an other Preface in defence of Mr Iacob and himself as he hath done this in defence of theyr Churches then it will be tyme ynough to impresse this thing a litle better in theyr mynds In the meane tyme this may suffice to shew how senceles and vnreasonable theyr reasoning and dealing is By the marks of the Beast spoken of Reu. 14. we vnderstand the defection and constitutions of the man of sinne spoken of 2 Thes 2 3-12 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 And that for these causes 1. Because these Scriptures speak of one and the same estate aÌ„d apostasy of Antichrist 2. Because the Beasts marks are in “ Rev. 14.9.12 this place of the Revelation directly opposed to the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus So that as Gods commaundements for his people so the ordinances of Antichrist also for his are as signes and marks by which such as receyve or refuse them may we ll be discerned and knowen Exod. 13.7.9.10.12.16 and Deut. 11.18 vvith Rev. 14.9.12 3. Because the Apostle to Timothy nameth in particular the forbidding of meats and Mariage which are part of Antichrists constitutions as vndoubted marks of that departure from the faith 1. Tim. 4.1.3 4. Because the many particulars concerning the apostasy of the Man of sinne mentioned in the Epistle to the Thessalonians are such as are both opposed to the ordinance of Christ and evident marks of the defection and body of Antichrist 2. Thes 2 3-12 Towching which and other Scriptures viz. 1. Ioh. 4.1.3 and 2 Ioh. ver 7.9.10 Dan. 7.8.25 Rev. 13.11 describing also the marks of the Beast Antichrist I have written in * A treatise of the Min. of the Char. of Engl. Pag. 7. 12. 26. c. another Treatise more purposely which may there be seen Here I will onely
annexe the testimony of one of the Martyrs a good while synce when Antichrist as yet was but a litle discovered in respect as synce that tyme he hath ben One of the Articles against Iohn Claydon who was burned at London in Smithfield in the yeare 1415 was this That the Bisshops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the Beast that is Antichrist Where marke that albeit a man preach the word of God yet he sayth the Bishops licence so to do is the Beasts marke Act. and Monum edit 5. Pag. 588. b. Thus much I thought to write here also concerning this poynt Yet if D. B. or Mr Iacob for him who do both of them receyve and carry daily the Beasts marks in theyr foreheads and hands and therefore may well have sure knowledge thereof can shew them any better from the word of God I shall willingly heare it And seing that here he wisheth we knew the marks of the Beast a litle better we do also entreat him if his leasure and ability will serve to make them a litle better knowen vnto vs. But I doubt it will now be found in him and the rest of them at this day as Mr Ridley that faithfull Martyr found and complayned in his tyme saying I feare me nay it is certayne the World that wanteth the light of the Spirit of God for the world is not able to receyve him sayth Iohn neyther doth nor shall know the Beast nor his marks though he rage cruelly and live never so beastly and though his marked men be in number like the sand of the sea Act. and Mon. 5. edit Pag. 1618. b. To conclude this matter then may I not well returne theyr ovvne speach vpon themselves and say Surely they are for the most part so wholy given and bend their wits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never look into their owne estate or apply the Scriptures to themselues But let them look vnto it it will be theyr decay in the end That all errors are alike is a fancy of his owne We did neuer imagine it We know and professe otherwise To give but one instance The Iewes the Arrians the Papists the Mungrell-protestants the Lutherans the Anabaptists c. do all of them at this day erre very greatly concerning the Person or Office of Iesus Christ who is “ 1 Cor. 3.11 the onely foundation of the Church Yet we know theyr errors are not all alike Some are greater some lesser some in one poynt some in another But this we say that all theyr errors are such as every faithfull Christian ought to eschew them and to witnes the contrary truth against them vnto death as they will aunswer to God at that day His obiection likewise of all the commaundements of God to be obeyed alike c. is of his owne coyning I do not think that ever he heard it of any of vs or that he did ever see it in any of our writings If he did he may shew it We know that Christ speaking of the dutyes of the first Table sayth This is first and the great commaundement Mat. 22.39 And that therefore the duâ—â—es of the second table must alway give place to the first as to the greater Math. 10.37.39 Luk. 14.26 Act. 20.24 Except when the mercy commaunded in the second is to be preferred before the ceremonyes required in the first and such like Hos 6.6 vvith Mat. 12 1-7 Luk. 13.14.17 We acknowledge also there is difference in the commaundements of the first Table when they are compared together one with another And in the commaundements likewise of the Second And consequently therefore in the dutyes required in both for our obedience These things are so well knowen as they may learne them of very children Note withall that we are bound to keep not onely the greatest of the commaundements of God but even the very least notwithstanding any perswasion prohibition or persecution to the contrary because they are all from one and the same God with commaundement to obey them all and every one and that vnder payne of damnation Therefore also Christ sayd The Second is like to the first and great commaundement Math. 22.39 Now iff any in this sence do say that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike it may well be vnderstood according to that saying of our Lord Iesus before alledged Mat. 22.38.39.40 Otherwise there is difference to be put as is aforesaid in the dutyes both of the two Tables themselves and of the severall commaundements of each of them His inserting of these two words the Scriptures and fundamentall when he saith that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike I will not now further stand vpon It seemeth he did it for some evasion Which I doubt not but his next Reply if he be not already at a Non plus will make more manifest Till then let this suffice which hath ben said The place of 1 Cor. 3.12.15 both he and Mr Iacob do misvnderstand and misalledge The Apostel speaketh not there of any false doctrine or errors built vppon the foundation but of the entising speach of mans wisdome and vayne eloquence off words By which it came to passe that although they taught nothing but the truth and so buylt vpon the foundation Iesus Christ yet they did it vnworthily and not as became the simplicity of the Gospell of Christ That this is the true and playne meaning of the Apostles speach appeareth thus 1 Cor. 2. 3 chap. 1. First by comparing together the second and third chapters of this Epistle Where all may see that he speaketh not a worde of any error or vntruth that was taught but of the simplicity on the one hand and of the ostentation of speach and humane wisdome on the other which was vsed by the Teachers of Corinth in theyr building vpon the foundation that is in theyr teaching of the truth of Iesus Christ 2. Secondly for that the very terme * 1 Cor. 3.10 here vsed by the Apostle concerneth directly the maner of teaching or building vpon the foundation not the matter taught or built vpon it His words are these Let euery man take heed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv he buildeth vpon it The word which he vseth here is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv for the manner not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vvhat for the matter 3. Thirdly because for the matter taught the Apostle doth els where give another rule concerning all teachers of errors and false doctrine though they should be Angels from heaven viz. to give them no countenance at all neyther to have any communion with them but to separate from them and hold them accursed 1 Tim. 6 3.4.5 Gal. 1.8.9 Rom. 16.17.18 2 Ioh ver 10.11 Rev. 22.18.19
of themselues raylers murmurers malicious covetous presumptuous lascivious hypocriticall vnstable discontended and such like persons alledgeth the Prophecyes Scriptures examples which were before of them in Enochs tyme of the vnbeleuing Iewes the Sodomites evill Angels Cain Balaam Corah c. Iud. Epist vvith Gen. 3.1 and 4 3-16 and 19 1-25 Numb 14. and 16. and 22. chap. c. Now in these as in the rest and many other so alledged in the Scriptures may divers differences be observed Yet are they all notwithstanding fit and pertinent for that wherevnto they apply them Neyther can any be ignorant but that there will be difference eyther of time place cause sexte persons things maner or such like circumstance in any allegations and yet they be pertinent nevertheles It is not materiall then though some differences might be noted between the case of England and theyrs of whom those Scriptures speak seing notwithstanding they do fitly prove that for which they are alledged Let the Reader also mynd here an old Popish shift whereby they labour to turne away the evidence of any Scripture that is vrged against theyr corruptions viz by noting some difference between theyr case and such as the Scriptures alledged speak of This you may see every where in theyr Rhemish notes on the New Testament and in all the rest of theyr books and defence of theyr Church and religion But now further to make the abuse of his lips yet the more manifest marke that the very Scriptures here mentioned by himself speak not onely of the vvhole body and povver of Heathen and Antichristian religion as he pretendeth but of every particular ordinance and vncleane thing belonging therevnto For thus they speak expressely Tovvch no vncleane thing Keep all myne ordinances and all my iudgements Be ye cleane Partake not in her sinnes c. By all which is most plainely forbidden all maner of partaking not of the whole onely but of every parcell of Antichrists or any other false worship whatsoever As to the second difference which he noteth here of theyr vvilfulnes rebellion obstinacy partaking vvith the lavvfull and good things vsed among them c. it is handled and answered in the Treatise following Pag. 42. 43. 88. 108. 130. 132 161. 170. 171. 175. 180. The particulars which he citeth out of the Evangelists towching the Iewes are the speaches and testimony of reproof given vnto them by Christ whē now he threatned to take away from them his kingdome because of those sinnes and other the like among them Mat. 21.43 This man himself knoweth we never doubted but true Churches might fall into errour and the members thereof walk corruptly in which respect they are subiect to be reproved And yet notwithstanding the Church constitution and functions be lawfull and ioyned withall vntill they refuse the voyce of Christ and will not be reclaymed Rev. 2. and 3. Math. 21. and. 23. Act. 2. and 13. and 17. and. 28. chap. Wherevnto when once they come then are all taught to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation Act. 2.40 and 13.46.47 19.9 Esa 8 12.-16 Now if we may separate from such as have ben true Churches when they so fall into sinne and persist as is aforesayd notwithstanding that otherwise they professe many Doctrines of truth how much more may and ought we to separate from all false Churches which stād in the apostasy of Antichrist that Man of sinne howsoever they professe some truth withall 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4 Ezech. 16.44 But of the difference both of the estate and dealing with true Churches and false compared together as also of the weaknes and falsehood of this māner of reasoning which here he vseth I have other where spokē sufficiently both in this Treatise following to which he referreth vs Pag. 92. 161. 195. and in another already published viz. A Treatise of the Ministery of England Pag. 45. 61 62. Note withall that none of the Evangelists neyther any other Scriptures do shew that Christ or the Prophets did at any tyme communicate with the Iewes in any evill but alway reproved them Whereas it is not possible that any should communicate with the Church of England though it be in theyr best things even of the Ministery of the Word Sacraments Prayer etc. but they must needs partake in evill As namely with the Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion and other sinnes of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Let him shew the contrary in any one thing among them iff he can And of this also see more hereafter Pag. 170. 171. 180. Finally let him tell vs if he have said any thing here which they in K. Henry the eight his dayes might not have alledged when the Popes supremacy with much of his religion besides was cast out of the Land and yet they oppugned the truth in many things and became drunken with the blood of the Martyrs notwithstanding D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 5. Obiection But vnto the examples of these Churches me thinkes I heare already that common aunsvver and last refuge of theyrs vvhich is this Those Churches say they were in a true outward constitution And therefore were the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding those grosse errors which they held in other poincts of doctrine and practise But contrariwise say they the Churches of England have a false outward constitution and therefore they are no true Churches of Christ notwithstanding theyr truthes of doctrine c. Ansvver So the outvvard constitution is the maine poinct on vvhich they vvholy depend and for vvhich they vvholy condempne the Churches of England from being true Christians in state of salvation VVhich I doubt not plainly to take avvay 1 And first concerning the constitution of the Ievvish Churches If vve should examine the same vve should finde that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Tvvo high Priests having by simonie crept in at once vvhich vvas vnlavvfull and contrarie to Gods ordinance notvvithstanding their gloses in their other ‡ ‡ 9. Reasons vvritinges to allovv them to be lavvfull by * * 2 Chrō 24 2.3 Zadok and Abimelech and by ††2 King 24.18 Seruiah the chief Prieste Zephaniah the Second vvhich make against themselues For there vvas never but one high Priest as they confesse * * Ansvver to Mr Hild. Pag. 50. Ergo not tvvo as here vvere the rest vvere indeed inferior to him And yet amongst those there vvas a chiefly also vvho vvere called sometimes Second Priests or Priests of the Second order 2. King 23.4 and sometimes chief Priests Math. 27.1 These Scriptures being compared vvith those in the margin by them cited doe make it more plaine Novv if the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through couetousnes as the Histories make mention It is not likely that the inferior offices did remaine sound but vvere asmuch or more altered The Priests generally being such couetous
vvicked persons theyr offices beeing very gainefull and besides they liuing vnder the authoritie of the Heathirish Romans vvho ruled ouer them All these things considered it is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution on vvhich they so much depend vvere vvholy altered from the right institution and therefore vvould make nothing for them As for theyr allegation of Mat. 23.1 VVhere they say Christ testifieth that they had true offices by saying they satt in Moses chaire It vvill not help them any vvhit at all For Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chaire must be vnderstood of somevvhat else themselves ‡ ‡ Mr Barrovv Mr Greēvvood in diuers Letters and Treatises have vnderstood it heretofore of Moses doctrine The Aunswer Do not they erre that imagine evill And doth not a deceyver speak lyes Prov. 14.22.25 What then may we think of him that counteth it a small thing to lye against Man if he do not also open his mouth against heaven and give the lye to the holy Ghost himself See both in this man here Against vs and I feare against his own conscience he forgeth a lye when he sayth vve do vvholy depend on their outvvard constitution c. For he knoweth we obiect against them besides and separate from them for much false doctrine publikly taught and mainteyned among them and for theyr wretched persecution of the truth and Martyrs of Iesus Therefore do we not wholy depend on theyr outward constitution From which it is to be noted that he severeth theyr publik doctrine as himself sheweth in the next Section and so therefore here we speak accordingly And that he knoweth these things appeareth both by this Treatise first published by himself where we have declared it in divers particulars Pag. 66. 108. 157. 158 159. 160. and in that himself hath seen and alleadgeth in this very Section another treatise written in answer of Mr A. H. where mo instances are given concerning this matter As may be seen in that book Pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. 22. 23. 37. 90. 91. To the holy Ghost he giveth the lye yea and maketh Christ our Lord a sinner in that which here he speaketh first of the constitution of the Ievvish Churches For the Scripture teacheth that the constitution of that Church was a true one and that Christ did himself communicate therein with them Yet this man besides that he sayth afterward that it is very likely the offices and outvvard constitution thereof vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Euen here at first he sayth peremptorily that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Which how shamefully false it is may appeare even by this that in those very tymes the estate of the Iewes Church yet was such as they were a people separated from the world having the true Ministery ordinances worship and administration which God by Moses had commanded As these Scriptures do plainely testify Luk. 1.6.8 9.10 11. 2.22.23.24.27.46 Mat. 8.4 Ioh. 1.19 4.22 5.1 11.55.2 Tim. 1.3.5 Yea they would not at any hand admit eyther of confusion of people or of any other Ministery then God had ordeyned As may be seen for the first in Act. 21.28 29. and for the latter in Iob. 1 19-25 Mat. 21.25.26 How shameles then is it to say as here he doth that theyr constitution was as greatly altered and corrupted as that of the Churches of England which to this day stand confused of all sorts of people aswell the prophanest as the best among them and have no other Ministery or Leiturgy but such as they have receyved from Antichrist the man of sinne and from Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 And further if the Iewish Church had ben thus corrupted as he feareth not to affirme how could Christ have communicated with them as he did but he must needs have sinned ād that highly against the Law of God viz. if he had as it is now in England joyned to such a Church as were vnseparated from the World or had partaken with a false Ministery or had sent others to a straunge Priesthood and Service or had approved by word or deed any other ordinances then those which God had commaunded c. This Scribe then must eyther approve the Church-constitution of England by the word of God or els confesse that it and the Iewish Churches are in this poynt nothing alike or if neyther of these that then Iesus Christ was a sinner Of whom the truth itself and work of our redemption testify that he knew no sinne at all but was like to vs in all things sinne excepted 2 Cor. 5.21 Heb. 4.15 7.26 This man then doth thus also both blaspheme the Sonne of God and make the holy Ghost a lyar But there were he saith tvvo high Priests at once vvhereas by the Lavv of God there should be but one 1. If it were so albeit thus they offended in the number yet still there was that office and function of Priesthood which God had ordeyned not a new one of mans devise as is the whole Hierarchy of England from the hyest Archbishop to the lowest Parish Priest And so there is no comparison between these two 2. This was the personall sinne of the men not the constitution of that Church neyther of the Offices wherein they were See it in another example Iudas an Apostle of Christ yet betrayeth him Doth it therefore follow that his office of Ministery wherein he was set by Christ himself was vnlawfull Nay that was the sinne of the Man not of the Office wherein he was What is this then to the question in hand when as the Ministery of England is charged to be straunge vnlawfull false in the very offices and functions thereof Yea and this man himself doth here by the whole course of his speach graunt as much 3. Is there any thing here said for the Priests and constitution of the Church of England which the most popish Priests Prelates Monks c. may not aswell alledge for theyrs Is theyr Ministery or constitution therefore such as man be ioyned withall 4. See how straungely these men forget and contradict themselves T. G. first Reply Pag. 83 84. Mr Cartwright writing against D. Whitgift saith If the vvhole practise of the Church vnder the Lavv be looked vpon it shall not be found that any other ecclesiasticall Ministery vvas appointed then those orders of hy Priests and Levites c. vvhich vvere appoynted by the Lavv of God And further that as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any straunge doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true do rine vnder the Name of any other function then vvas instituted by God Yet this man with an whores forehead shameth not to perswade that the offices and outvvard constitution of that Church vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Thus
Levites Iff I say we consider and compare these Scriptures together how playne is it and vndeniable that Christs speach of sitting in Moses chayre c. doth necessarily imply the true offices and functions which God by Moses ordeyned for the teaching and guyding of Israel in his worship and service Thus also may Moses doctrine which they taught in those offices be fitly vnderstood ād comprised in the same speach And what variety then is there betweē this exposition and that which vnderstandeth it of Moses doctrine as he saith some of our selves have done heretofore Finally how ignorant and frivolous is it that here he pretendeth against this viz. that Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate Whenas all the Scriptures aforesaid do reach that God by Moses appoynted them to this function and service And that so as Moses himself though he were not a Priest ordeyned by solemne rite yet by the appointment off God did annoint not onely the Tabernacle and all that was therein but Aaron also and his sonnes consecrating them to the Priests office and offring all the sacrifices appertayning therevnto Which afterward belonged onely to the Priests for to do Lev. 8. 9. chap. Psal 99.6 vvith Heb. 5.4 But perhaps there is a pad in the straw more lurking in his speach then all men are aware of For what if by these words Moses vvas no Priest but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstād of some vvhat els he insinuate that it is meant of the Magistrates authority and seing Christ inferreth vpon the sitting in Moses chayre All therefore vvhatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do that all people therefore are bound to keep whatsoever the Magistrates do commaund them Will not his words here beare and import thus much Yea may not his vnderstanding it of some what els joyned with the Magistrates authority seem directly to imply it and that so as what they commaund he thinketh it is to be observed be it lawfull or vnlawfull Which if it be his meaning hath he not here then covertly sowē most detestable doctrine both shamefully helping Christ himself ād wickedly crossing the whole Scripture and practise of the faithfull in all ages For proof whereof see but these and the like testimonyes Exod. 1.17 1 Sam. 22.17 Dan. 3 14-28 6.12.13 Mat. 22.21 Act. 4.18.19 and 5.28.29 17.6.7 Heb. 11. chap. Reu. 2.10.13 12.11.17 13.7.15 14.7.12.13 20.4 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 6. 2. Secondly to let their constitution passe vvhich yet as I have said vvould be found as badde or vvorse then ours vve wil examine their corruptions in doctrine Wherein I would knovv of them vvhich are the greater sinnes of these two sorts viz. 1. A false and corrupt outward constitution 2. Or false and corrupt doctrines I thinke they vvill say the corrupt and false doctrines are the greater as they are indeed For that they doe vvound fester and corrupt the very conscience and doe deceive the hearers thereof Whereas the errors in the constitution of a Church especially in some circumstances as the errors with vs are and those of no small controversie in matters also not fundamentall are nothing nere so hurtfull by hovve much the Tithing of Mint Annis Commin are of lesser force then the other vveightier matters of the lavv Novv from hence I Reason thus If the greater sinnes namely in doctrine doe not simply ouerthrovv a companie of Christians from being a true Church Then much lesse vvill the lesser sinnes namely in the outvvard constitution c But the false doctrines which are the greater sinnes themselves confesse by the example of the said Churches doe not Therefore neither will the lesser For the better explayning of this poinct I would pray them resolve me of this question What if a company of Arians Anabaptistes or Papistes should bee gathered and established in a true outward constitution still reteyne their fundamentall errors before * * Sectiō 3 named Whether should their outward constitution make them a true Church yea or no I thinke they will say no. Thus I hope then it appeareth that the outward constitution whether falty or true availeth nothing to the ouerthrowing or making of a true Church vnlesse other doctrines of the foundation either false or true doe concurre therewith And thus their Obiection of the Iewish constitution is I trust fully ansvvered So that still their peremptory separation and condempning of the Churches of England for some outvvard corruptions remayneth still a grievous sinne vpō their heads for vvhich vvithout harty repentance they shall one day aunsvver before God vvhich vvill be too heavie a burthen for them to beare The Aunswer That which Christ sayd to the Scribes and Pharisees VVo be to you blynd guydes vvhich say VVhosoever svveareth by the Temple it is nothing but vvhosoever svveareth by the gold off the Temple Mat. 23.16.17 he offendeth Ye fooles and blynd vvhether is greater the gold or the Temple that sanctifyeth the gold c. May it not in this case also fitly be applyed to this Scribe Specially seing the Church in the constitution thereof if we sever it from the doctrine as here he doth may in divers respects be compared with the Temple and the doctrine of truth taught and vpheld in the Church with the gold of the Temple As both by these Scriptures doth plainely appeare 2 Cor. 6.16.17 vvith 1 Tim. 3.15 1 Cor. 14.5.6.19.23.24.25.33 2 Thes 2.4.4 Rev. 11.1.2 And by this also that God hath made the promise of his presence and blessing to his Church as to the Temple wherein he will dwell it being so constituted and walking as he hath commaunded Lev. 26.11.12 with 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Esa 52.11.12 Ezech. 37.26.27.28 48.35 Mat. 28.20 Yea and this man himself did * Section 3. here a litle before alledge that by gold and siluer spoken of 1 Cor. 3.12 the Apostle meaneth true doctrine Which if it were so there then by his owne exposition may that saying of Christ to the Pharisees well be applyed to him in this case Secondly I aske Doth not the constitution be it true or false alway include the whole body of the Church whereas the false Doctrine is often found but in some members thereof This may be seen in the Churches of Israel Corinth Galatia Pergamus etc. In which respect also the false and corrupt constitution may be of greater waight and more danger then the false and corrupt Doctrine inasmuch as the wounding and infecting of the whole body is far worse then of some parts onely and because the parts so infected if they cannot otherwise beholden may be cut of and yet the body preserved Not contrarily For the better explaning whereof let him resolve me which of these propositions is the truer viz. VVhere there is in a Church false doctrine there is a false Church Or this VVhere there is a false constitution there is a
false Church And contrarily Thirdly I aske Is not the Hierarchy and Church constitution of Antichrist the most detestable anarchy of Sathan that ever was And doth not Sathan far more commonly and readily part with his false doctrine then with it when he must needs part with the one 2 Thes 2.9 and yet can retayne the other He is subtill and of long experience he can mynd and knoweth full well that so long as he holdeth his owne constitution of a Church he can quickly vppon any opportunity bring in his doctrine agayne even with a trice For why He hath both the people ready for the receyving of it being yet still in the confusion and bondage of Antichrist and his owne Ministery also to be imployed in the publishing and serving thereof theyr Offices Callings Ministrations Maintenance being all ready at hand and fit for the purpose Whereas on the contrary when the false constitution is abolished then false doctrine wanteth both hee woonted place of receipt and her nimble wings by which she should spread and fly abroad And here I could alledge for proof hereof the prefer Ministery and estate of the Church of England which being of Antichrist Sathans graundchild and he now having spyed his tyme and found some opportunity beginneth apace by this meanes to bring in agayne such doctrines of his as had for a tyme ben suppressed As namely Free-vvill Auricular Confession Christs soule to descend into Hell The Church of Rome to be a true Church c. Witnesse the Books and publik Sermons of Bilson Bancroft Hooker Androes Harsenet Barret and other the Priests and Prelates of that Church the Marchants of these and the like wares off the Beast in Court City Countrey Vniversity and where not The same thing you may mynd also thus So long as the house standeth still and is furnished with servants and Ministers it is ready for the implements and furniture though removed for a tyme to be brought in agayne and soone to be set vp in theyr woonted place And if you would see an example of these things yet in memory look but at the Churches estate in K. Edwards and Q. Maryes dayes compared together The popish constitution of the Church being not abolished in King Edwards tyme how soone was the Popes doctrine yea and his supremacy in Queen Maryes dayes spread and acknowledged throughout the Land Yet the same doctrines of truth were in K. Edwards tyme published and receyved which now are in England And very like also that it was then with more zeale and love of the truth thē now it is specially considering the generall coldnes of men and the cruell persecution of the truth to which this age synce is come Mynd further that the Offices houses and maintenance of the Fryers and Nunnes being before in the time of K. Henry the eight quite taken away they were not able in all Q. Maryes raigns to reare them vp agayne No albeit they iudged them lawfull and necessary aswell as the other poynts of Popery and did also very earnestly desier and labour to have them reestablished So great a matter it is to have a thing abolished in the whole constitution thereof Even as when an house is rased and pulled downe to the very foundation And here vpon this occasion let me also aske Whether if the Callings and Livings of the Prelates and Priests together with the Idoll Temples and confusion of all maner people in the body of the Church now had in England were so dealt with as the Abbats Monks Abbeyes and Nunryes then were there would not fewer Iesuites and Seminaryes come into the Land Popery lesse increase treason against her Maiesty be lesse attempted and finally all the meanes and hope for the full replanting of Antithrists religion agayne in that Church be vtterly removed and taken away Let this Scribe then go and perswade such as himself that the outward constitution of the Church is but as the tithing of Mynt Annise and Commin c. Whosoever have theyr 〈◊〉 exercised to discerne good and evill will playnely see that notwithstanding any thing he pretendeth yet it is and ought to be accounted among the waighty matters of the Law of God Yea that it is of far other importance and consequence then most men think or will yet be perswaded albeit even experience the Mistresse of fooles might in all this tyme and tryall have taught them sufficient if ynough were ynough for men In cases of Religion Now for his Reason here any may see by that which hath ben sayd that it is very frivolous and of no waight at all The Proposition or first part hath nothing for the ground of it but that which is in question and neyther is alway true nor can be yeelded vnto for very great and waighty causes here before declared Vnto which adde these also 1. That many errors in doctrine are and may be far lesse then the errors of the outward constitution when they are truly compared together 2. That the true outward constitution of the Church alway implyeth both a separation of the people from the World and the joyning of them together in the fellowship of the Gospell and both these to be voluntary Which particulars being considered with the former will teach him not barely to set downe but duly to prove the Proposition in his next Reply The Assumption or second part of the Reason is in some fence true in some sence false and in both against himself and their Churches estate When Churches are set in the constitution and way of Christ if afterward they fall into some errour of doctrine they are notwithstāding for the former to be reputed true Churches vntill being admonished they refuse to heare the voyce of Christ and to yeeld to the truth Thus the Assumption is true and of vs confessed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes c. But when theyr case cometh to be such as they will rather abide in errour then obey the truth and voyce of Christ this so wilfull persisting simply overthroweth such a company from being a true Church in such estate And thus the Assumption is false and so proved to be by the example of the said Churches And both wayes it is agaynst him and theyr Church as will yet further appeare by that which is now to be spoken of his question wherein he would be resolved He asketh VVhat if a company of Arrians Anabaptists or Papists should be gathered and established in a true outvvard constitution and still retayne theyr fundamentall errors before named VVhether then their outvvard constitution should make them a true Church Yea or no. I aunswer 1. Not onely false constitution but false doctrine also retayned make a false Church If it were so then that they could have a true constitution as he supposeth yet by reason of theyr false doctrine they should be a false Church 2 I aske also of him Whether these companyes of whom he speaketh
were true Churches when they fell into those errors as were the Churches of Galatia when the errors about Circumcision and the Law crept in among them Or whether they were Hereticks Sectaryes or the like such as were Hymeneus Philetus Alexander the Apostates of Rome c. falling from the true faith and Churches of God when they came to be gathered and established as he fancyeth If they were of the former sort then they are to be estemed and admonished as true Churches till by despising the voyce of Christ the Kingdome of God be taken from among them Gal. 1.2 vvith 5.2.4 Mat. 21.33.43 1 Cor. 1.2 vvith 15.12 Rev 2. 3. chap. If of the latter then are they no true Churches at all but false and detestable Synagogues of Sathan whatsoever truth in constitution or otherwise they shall pretend Rev. 2.9 Act. 20.30 Col. 2.8.23 2 Thes 2.3.7 1 Tim. 1.19.20 6.20.21 and 2 Tim. 2.17.18 and 3.5.6.13 and. 4.14 Heb. 10.38.39 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3 In de ver 18.19 Rev. 13.11 17. 18 chap. 3. In a true constitution must alway be mynded a calling by the word of God a separation from the world a joyning together in the fellowship of the Gospell and that by a voluntary profession thereof and submission therevnto Now these things considered how is it posible that the Arrians Anabaptists or Papists retayning theyr errours should yet be gathered and established in a true outward constitution Can the light of truth have communion with the darkenes of falsehood Or can Christ in his constitution agree with Belial in the errours of Arians Anabaptists Papists c. 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 4. Finally if he will not heare our aunswer nor the Scriptures testimony let him yeâ— heare Mr Iewell a Prelate of theyr Church resolve his question in this maner * Ievvels Reply to Harding Pag 99 VVithout Christ the Church is no Church neyther hath any right or clayme vvithout his promise noâ— any promise vvithout his vvord Now this D. B. affirmeth himself that these of whom he speaketh are vvithout Christ For he sayth †Before in Sect. 3. theyr errors do of theyr ovvne nature cleane abolish from Christ Therefore by his owne assertion and Mr Iewels layd together they can be nâ—â—eue Church whatsoever faith or constitution they should pretend neyther have they anâ— right in such estate to his blessing Which yet is promised to them that are in the true waâ— and constitution of Christ Mat. 28.20 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Lev. 26.11.12 Thus then appeareth that he doth both ignorantly fever the doctrine wholy from the Churches constitution and that yet when they are considered apart as some tymes and â— some respects they may be each of them that is both the doctrine and constitution according as they are true or false avayle directly to the ouerthrowing or making of the Church to be likewise true or false so as hath ben declared before His crafty putting of faulty here for falâ— will nothing help him but bewrayeth his corrupt dealing the more Els let him shew in his next if he can whether ever there were true Church that stood in false constitution Neyther is the obiection of the Iewish constitution answered at all but remayneth of force against them still And that so much the more as the Churches of England remayne both in falâ— constitution and in false doctrine for both which they are vnder the wrath of God and all â—ound to separate from them And whosoever will not so do it remayneth a grievous sinne vpon theyr heads for which they must answer to God in that day when he will cast the Beast and false Prophet with all such as have ben seduced by them into vtter destruction to have their part in the lake which burneth with fyer and brimstone which is the second death 2 Thes â— 10.11.12 Rev. 14.9.10.11 17.1.2 19.20.21 21.8 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 7. Lastly concerning our corruptions As we cannot iustifie them to be no corruptioÌ„s but must needes acknowledge that there are many yet remaining in our land which vvere left by that man of sinne are as thornes vnto our sides vvhich vve hope God will in time abolish Iudg. 2.3 So dare vve not runne into your extremities to condempne our Churches for such corruptions but waight the appointed time of God for the redresse thereof Yet in the meane time so longe as those most excellent truthes and doctrines of salvation for which God make vs thankfull are still reteyned and held as soundly as by any Church vpon the face of the earth the other errors not simply ouerthrovving the same beeing not held of obstinacy and being also for the most part of great controversie and disputation among the learned So long I say communion in things lavvfull is to be kept with them as before is noted in the example of other Churches Othervvise it vvill come to passe by reason of the * * Mat. 25.13 10.23 dieuersitie in opinions and iudgementes vvhich by the corruption of our nature vve remaine in in this tabernacle as hath ‡ ‡ Lev. 4. Psal 19.12 bene in all ages and * * 1 Cor. 13.9 12. shal be so long as this life of imperfection indureth that no communion can euer bee had vvith any Church liuing no nor any one Christian vvith another Which to affirme vvere most absurd and vngodly These observations beeing considered I doubt not but the Lorde vvill adde a blessing to this vvorke That such as are simple hearted and have exceeded in eagernesse of zeale may see theyr extremitie in so rashly and vnadvisedly separating from and condempning the Churches of England sometymes theyr Nurses and Mothers as before is noted Whereby God may have the glory themselves the comforte euen the salvation of theyr soules through Christ D. B. The Aunswer Now at length D. B. yeeldeth the cause himself So great is the truth and so greatly it prevayleth against every oppugner thereof To omit that he confesseth they cannot justify theyr corruptions and yet they can abide in them he sayth also they must needs acknovvledge that they have many corruptions remayning vvich vvere left by that man of sinne vvhich are as thornes vnto theyr sides Blessed be God which maketh the enemyes themselues bring glory and testimony to his truth They are so convinced as he sayth plainely they must needs acknovvledge it Now therefore let him name them in his next or confesse those to be of them which I have noted hereafter Pag. 63. c. Till then I will onely inferre this herevppon that seing they are such as himself here graunteth them to be viz corruptions of the Man of sinne and thornes to theyr sides even therefore are all bound to separate from them as being condenmed by the word of God For hath not the Lord commaunded all his people wholy to leave the Man of sinne with all his corruptions not to partake in any of his
Church of England be not off the the very same stampe with Mr Hookers for the Church of Rome Thus what by the Prelates and theyr Proctors on the one hand and these Pharisaicall dawbing Reformists on the other theyr case is come to be such as all may iustly feare least the end of that Church will be to look back not onely in part but euen wholy to the Romish Egypt and Sodom and to wallow agayne in the same myer from which they would seem aâ— this tyme to hâ—â—â—e â—en washed For it is just with God to make such eate the fruit of there owne way and to fill them with theyr owne devises Prov. 1.31 And what other thing do the books pretences practise and declining of all sorts both Ministers and people among them â—â—rtend Yet Lord thou God of power and Father of mercy work better things for them and among them if it be thy will To that which D. B. pretendeth next of keping communion vvith them in things lavvfull it being likewise objected by Mr Iacob I haue answered in the Treatise ensuing Pag. 88. 170. 171. 180. Here onely I aske First what one lawfull thing they have that we have not Secondly in what one thing which he counteth lawfull we can have communion with them in that estate and not sinne against God by partaking withall in the apostasy of the man of sinne Of all other things it is most like he will say that we might heare many comfortable truths taught by theyr Preachers and many good prayers conceyved by them Yet such is their case as we can not do this neyther but we must needs partake with the Ministery of Antichrist all theyr Preachers even the best being Priests and Deacons so made by the Prelates Of which see more in the latter Treatise following Pag. 188. c. Not to speak here any further of it or of theyr Book-worship taken out of the Popes Masse-book according to which they administer the Sacraments marry bury pray c. or of the compulsion of all maner people even the most wicked to be members of theyr Church or of theyr Church discipline being in the hands of the Prelates and by the Canon Law or finally of the severall offices entrance ministration maintenance of theyr whole Hierarchy To none of which can any joyne or submit in any part of Gods worship but they must needs partake in evill even in the sinnes of Babylon and of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Such is their constitution and such is the standing of all that continew therein Of his last pretence tovvching diversity of judgement by reason whereof he would perswade to keep communion with them I have spoken * In the Ansvver to Section 3. here a litle before To which now I will adde this onely that his collection herevpon viz. that we should therefore keep communion with the Ministery and confusion of Antichrist for of what els speaketh he if he speak to the poynt in question is most absurd and vngodly And will not Hooker think you for his Christian Papists and some such as Hadrianus for the Anabaptists perswade likewise And what then are we the nearer Or what will these men do in the end hereof Ier. 5.31 This then is not rightly to vse that diversity of judgement wherevnto in many things all Churches and Christians in deed are continually subiect here on earth but ignorantly to abuse it But herevnto it may be ‡ Da. Buck. this man was driven eyther by weaknes of iudgement in himself or by eagernes of contention and malice agaynst vs of whome he hath sometymes ben but now for his revolting from the truth and so persisting is according to the * 1 Cor. 5.4.5.11.12.13 1 Tim. 1.19.20 Mat. 18.17.18.20 Scriptures and ordinance of Christ cast out from among vs and delivered vnto Sathan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Which mercy the Lord Almighty vouchsafe him in Christ from whom he hath declined vnto Antichrist And this is all the harme I wish vnto him or any such even theyr repentance and salvation in Christ Iesus Hitherto of the Preface prefired to Mr Iacobs book Which I have answered somewhat largely from poynt to poynt rather for the satisfying of others then for any waight I judged to be in it my self Now it is tyme that I returne to Mr Iacob himself and deale with him in particular by whom I am spoken vnto and challenged by Name almost in every page of his book As if he had forgotten the old Proverbe which sayth Let not him boast himself that girdeth his harness as he that putteth it off Here then seing that this discourse came first from him to the view of the world and that also without my aunswer to his last Reply let the Reader call to mynd that which is written He that is first in his ovvne cause is iust then cometh his neighbour and maketh inquiry of him Prov. 18.17 So as he now having told his owne tale first and seming to some no doubt to be iust therein it is nedefull that I therefore come in the next place and make inquiry of him Which I do in the Treatise following submitting it now to the judgement of others to be examined of all by the word of God 1 Cor. 2 12-16 1 Thes 5.21 By it therefore do thou ChristiaÌ„ Reader try all things therein and keep that which is good Have no prejudice I pray thee eyther of Mr Iacob or my self but heare vs both speak and then consider what is spoken on eyther side from poynt to poynt And the Lord give thee vnderstanding in all things There is but one way of truth to life eternall And that is in no other but the Lord Iesus Christ Ioh. 14.6 who hath said I am the vvay the truth and the life If therefore the Churches of England as now they stand be in that good and old way prescribed by Christ wherein the Primitiue Churches were planted by the Apostles then doubtles then are in the way of truth that leadeth vnto life Yet this hath not Mr Iacob shewed in all his discourse Ier. 6.16 But now on the contrary if the Churches of England in theyr estate have in the Ioynes off the Church of Rome and with it departed from that auncyent and good way of Christ and do even vnto this day stand in the apostasy of Antichrist and that in theyr publik Ministery worship ordinances confusion of people c. then can they not so standing be assured by the word of God that they are in the way of truth which leadeth vnto life but in the by-wayes of errour which cary headlong to death and perdition 2 Thes 2.3.10.12 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 13.11 17.1.2 22.18.19 vvith Exod 20.4.5 For which cause all the people of God are bound to separate from them and not to partake in any of theyr sinnes least they receyve also of
their plagues Rev. 18.4 And if it be well mynded Mr Iacob himself howsoever he pretend otherwise yet in deed yeeldeth thus much when he is driven to confesse that theyr constitution is such * Pag. 37. 61 69. 70. 84. 154. as they stand in error and that of Antichrist against the Second commaundement in vayne vvorship departing from and denying the faith in their Ministery c. But for these and all the rest thou mayest see and I pray thee good Reader well to mynd the Arguments Replyes and Aunswers following From the reading whereof I will not not now any longer hold thee The God of peace tread Sathan vnder thy feet and by his word and Spirit lead thee into the way of truth to the conservation of thy soule vnto life eternall And if thou reapest any fruit of my labours give prayse vnto God and pray for me the weakest of his servants and vnworthyest of the witnesses of Iesus The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ be with thy spirit Amen Thyne in Christ Fran Iohnson AN AVNSWER TO M. H. IACOBS ARGVMENTS AND REPLIES concerning the Churches and Ministery of ENGLAND Chap. 1. Of the Title of Maister Iacobs Book which is thus A DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministerie of ENGLAND FRAN. IOHNSON his Aunsvver THe defence of the Churches and Ministery of England were an enterprise worth the taking in hand if Maister Iacob effected in deed what the Title of his Book pretendeth in show But he that readeth his book and mindeth it well shall find him promise mountaines and performe molehils Let the sequell shew it Now I would that Maister Iacob should speak himself without stammering what Churches and what Ministerie of ENGLAND he defendeth All or some only It is a poynt needfull to be knowen and mentioned All may see it would giue great light for deciding the controuersy betwen vs. And who would not think he should readily declaer it Yet he flies from it every where Therefore that he may not alway so doe but may be drawen to answer directly vnto it as also for the Readers better help and more clearing of the truth I wil particulerly and as plainely as I can describe how the Churches and Ministerie of England are to be considered And thē expect his aunswer If I be mistaken or if maister Iacob and such as liue in that Church who therefore haue better occasion to know it can do it more fully and plainely I shal willingly heare it In the meane time this is my iudgment First for the Churches to consider them as followeth 1 In respect of the Conuocation-house which consisteth of the Prelates and some other of the Priests assembled togeather with them And so they haue but one Church in the Land And that when there is a Parliament or like occasion I take it also that out of this Church the Prince the Nobles and people are excluded Saue that when they haue determined their matters they haue for some of them the consent of the Parliament 2 According to the number of their Archbishops and so they haue two Metropolitan Churches vnder which all the rest are subiect and cōprised 3 According to the number of their Arch and Lord Bishops and so there are about 26. Churches comprehending all within their seuerall Diocesses Hither also I referre the Cathedrall Churches 4 According to the ecclesiastical Courts of the Archbs. Lordbs Chancelors Archdeacons Commissaries and Officials vnder which all the other Ministers and people stand subiect and so according to the number of those Courts there may be some 200. Churches or thereabout 5 According to the number of the Parish assemblies of which all stand mēbers and so ther are many thousād Churches in the Land Hitherto of the Churches The Ministery may be considered two wayes Eyther more generally as they are all Priests or Deacons or more particularly as they are superiour or inferiour Superiour as Archbishops Lordbishops Suffraganes Deanes Archdeacons and the rest of that sort Inferiour as Parsons Vicars Curates Stipendary Preachers Houshold Chapleynes and the like Then in al these consider fower things 1. their office 2. their entrāce 3. their Administration 4. their maintenance This for the Ministerie Now let M. Iacob tell vs in his next 1. whether he defend all these Churches and Ministerie of England or but some of them 2. If not all but some only which then they are that he defendeth and which he leaveth as vtterly vnlawfull without all defence 3. For those he defendeth let him show in what place and pages of his book we may find the defence of them For whether it be that I perceyue it not or that he doth it not of this I am sure for my self that I cannot find in al his book so much as any one of them defended As others find let thē speak And to put al out of doubt let M. Iacob shew it Lastly if he will be intreated let him tell the cause why his book being entituled A defence of the Churches Ministerie of England came not out Cum priuilegio Yea why it was printed beyond sea and not in England It is a shrewd token cōsidering the title that his Defence euen at home amōg his neighbours is accoūted very weak and simple For the name Brownists by which we are reproched in the forefrōt of his book note these things 1. That in like manner long since by the Priests and Pharisees were the Apostles and Primitiue Churches termed * Act. 24.5 a sect of Nazarites and at this day by the Papists are the Professors of the Gospel called Calvinists Zuinglians Huguenotes and the like 2. M. Browne from whose name this byword was first taken vp is a member and Minister of M. Iacobs Church not of ours yet holding as we heare in his iudgment the truth we professe but for his practise stāding in the apostasy and false worship wherein they are So then not we but M. Iacob and such like may fitly be called Brownists inasmuch as in their iudgment they hold the things we stand for to be good yet in their practise like Browne are other men walking with the Church of England in her euill way 3. For our selues we acknowledg with the disciples in the Primitiue Churches and the faithful in al ages since that we are ‡ Act. 11.26 Christians striuing now for our time and estate against the remainder of the abominations of Antichrist to keep the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus Therefore doth it not trouble vs that by M. Iacob or any other we are thus reuiled for the name of Christ It is inough for vs that the †1 Pet. 4.14 spirit and truth of God which on their part is euil spoken of is on our part glorified But yet let him and all such take heed vnto it in time Now I proceed to his maine and maimed Argument Which is as followeth Chap. 2. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it is novv propounded and printed by vvhich
in him some goodnes towards the Lord God of Israell he may be counted a true Israelite finding mercy at the Lords hands 1 King 14.1.5.13 By this you may see what my mind in this first point is and alway hath ben And if you doe marke wheresoeuer I speak of the members of your Church to be vnder wrath in Antichristian estate no true Christians or iointly together no true Churches or the like I speake it still with this caution in respect of such estate or constitution as they stand in vnder Antichrist To which end you may euerie where in my aunswers minde these and the like clauses In that estate In that constitution In respect of the Ministerie and constitution of the Church Being subiect to Antichrist Being so considered Being Antichristian and other of like sorte For the second your words are That all the Christians and Churches in King Edvvards tyme and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. vvere all lims of Antichrist and no true Christians Now as touching this matter although you may easily see what my minde is by that I haue said concerning the other going before yet for this in particular know also that I am thus minded viz. That al the christians and churches in King Edwards time and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. stood as touching the outward constitution of that church in Antichristian estate Yet considering the mercie of God vnto thē and their faithfulnes in those things which in that time of ignorance were reuealed inasmuch as afterward they loued not their liues vnto death but in many waightie pointes resisted vnto blood striuing against Antichrist I hold them in this respect true Christians and now to be at rest with the Lord. And tell me your self M. Iacob whether you iudge not thus of Arnoldus de villa noua Iohannes de rupe scissa Iohn Wicleff Iohn Hus Ierome of Prage Sauanarola Dominicus Siluester Thorpe Swinderby Bilney c. the faithfull witnesses of Christ in their seuerall ages and therefore in this respect true Christians whereas yet notwithstanding as touching their ministerie and Church-constitution wherein they were they stood in Antichristian estate some of them being Friers some popish Priests some saying Masse some communicating in it c. vntill the day they were martyred and put to death For the third your wordes are That euerie soule in England is conuicted in consciēce that the Prelacie is vnlawfull vntolerable Touching this likewise I neuer did nor can affirme as you haue set downe Only this I know and affirme for the generall state of the Land that a greater light is risen vnto them in these daies but they loue darknes more then light Also that many times and sundry waies hath ben shewed and convinced vnto them that the Prelacie Priesthood Leiturgy c. are Antichristian and therefore vnlawful and vntolerable Finally that the * VVitnesse their Acts in Parlament against vs. Their presēt estate practise c. vniuersal face of the Realme hath refused the truth by vs professed and retaineth still the Antichristian abhominations aforesaid For which I feare their iudgment will be the heauier Ioh. 3.19 and 15.22 Act. 13.45.46 This is that which I haue bin and am perswaded touching these particulars The latter branch of the first of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which I haue proued by many arguments both from the word of God and your owne mens writings Vnto which M. Iacob you haue not giuen one word of sound aunswer in all your booke but continually fly from the point in question as knowing I feare in your self that there can be no iust defence of your Churches estate in this behalf And touching all three your self could not but know that my iudgment therein was as I haue declared you and I haue so oftē had speach together thereabout Yet behold to make the truth of God and my defence thereof more odious to the world and so to preiudice your Readers iudgment you haue here at first vniustly and falsly fathered vpon me these three assertions being not able to shew them in my words or writings any where Remember you not how the enemies of Gods grace delt of old with the Apostles Rom. 3.8 blaming them vniustly as if they had taught vve should doe euil that good might come thereof Or mind you how the Papists Anabaptists and the like doe at this day charge vs though falsly that vve make God the author of sin whiles we maintaine against them the truth touching Predestination Freewill c. In like manner deale you with me See Mat. 26 60.61 vvith Ioh. 2 19.21 Act. 6.13.14 And thus at first you become a false witnes both in peruerting the sence of my words and in altering diminishing and adding vnto them Euerie of which you know is to beare false testimony not only against me but in this case euen against the truth it self That all men take notice both of these positions and of our dealing therein I also am content and desirous My aunswers I confesse are somewhat long partly because I would make the truth manifest euen to the most simple partly for that I would more fully discouer your manifold shifts and leaue you no statting hole any where In your replies which may well be pinned vp in a narrow roome seeing they haue nothing of waight in them I desire more sound and vpright dealing together with demonstration of your cause from the Scripture That I haue cause thus to desire these three points following which I wish the Reader to obserue in your Replies will testifie First that you being to proue your cause and Argument Three things to be noted by the Reader in Mr Iacobs Replyes neuer proceed though you be still called vpon to make due proof thereof but put ouer all proof vnto me and busie your selfe in aunswering after your fashion the Exceptions and Reasons I brought against your Argument Secondly that in aunswering my Reasons and Exceptions finding them all to heauy you neuer directly refute them as they were propoūded but some times leaue most waightie points in them wholy vnaunswered somtimes labour to wash your hāds of the matter and to turne ouer the plea from your selfe that haue vndertakē it to the state of your Church on whom you leaue it somtimes transforme them into other shapes framed by your self and so aunswer not me but fight with your owne shadow and thus euerie foot yeeld the cause by necessary consequence Thirdly that in steed of Gods word which is very rare with you in all this dispute you presse vs with the authoritie of Man neuer going about to approue your Church-estate by the Scriptures which onely must end this controuersie but alway leading vs to the view and errors of the Martyrs For let it be minded whether euery of your Replies haue not this for their foundation
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
the dead to make reconciliation for them thereby spoken of in the book of Machabees And according to your second sence of fundamentall that ‡ 2 Machab. 14.41.42 commending of vvilfull murther taught in the same book of Machabees Not to speak of the Magick in the “ Iob. 6.6 book of To bit for healing any that is troubled with a Divell or evill spirit by a perfume made of a fishes heart and liuer These sweet doctrines with other the like do those books affoord But it skils not so long as with a bold face notwithstanding you can beare it out and say still your errors are not fundamentall c. Is this your conscience Mr. Iacob Will you thus still plead for Baall But to proceed in the third place you speak of those words according to Christs ordinance Where first marke that these words in your Article are to be referred to all the particulars going before So as to maintaine your Argument you must proue your Assemblies to be so gathered the pure vvord so preached anh the Sacraments so administred among you as Christ hath ordeined Thus might you more perswade vs and defend your selues better in one half sheet of paper then in a thousand such frivolous pamphlets as you sparse abroad to no purpose at all except it be to lay open your owne nakednes so much the more Whereas I alledged that vvhen and vvhere the vvorde is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ this you say is false too Often have I heard you say so but never could I heare you proue it To help you therefore I will show you the way how to doe it if any such thing could be And that is thus first syncerely as before God to reckon vp all the offices of Ministery which your Church by Law enjoyeth and then to note the Scriptures which teach that Christ ordained those offices in his Church secondly to show the manner of entrance into your severall offices prescribed by Law and then to name the places of Scripture where such calling is appointed by Christ This you see is a plaine and ready way touching these two points to stablish the conscience and to confound your adversaries not with show of words but with substance of matter I hope it will do you some pleasure Mr. Iacob that I haue showed you so good a way All the thanks I aske for it is that you would walk vprightly in it Now if you list not take the paines or find the way all to hard for your Archbs Lordbs Archdeacons Parsons Vicars Stipendaries and the rest of your Priests and Deacons yet at least for your self show it in defence of your owne office and calling first when you were made Priest and Deacō by the Prelates and thē when you became an House-Priest in the countrey and since a Mercenary-Priest in the citty Now I heare your Lords the Prelates haue commaunded you silence and you as an obedient childe of such reverend Fathers do readily submit to their Antichristian authority Yet let this be no excuse to put of the clearing of the former matter but seeing you haue so much the more leasure do it the more soundly and speedily Doubtles it would give great light in this case Next you say your ordinarie Preachers are true Pastors as touching the substance of Pastorall calling but whom meane you by ordinary Preachers c. Your Prelates I remember are by Law your Ordinaries Doe you meane it of them your treatise shewes it not Tell vs then who they be of whom you speak 1. whether all or some onely of your Preachers 2. whether you have any extraordinarie Preachers that have some other office 3. what you judge of those that are not in the number of the ordinary Preachers you speak of whether they also be true Pastors 4. what you account according to the Scripture the substance of the Pastorall calling whereof you speak All these points you see must be cleared afore we can vnderstand what you speak or whereof you affirme So mysticall or rather in deed so fearefull and deceitfull is your manner of speach Touching the question what is substantiall in the Ministery if you put it over to me to declare as your manner is I have already showed my judgment and reasons in †A treatise of the Minist of the Churches of Engl. p. 83. 84. 85. another treatise Which you may either refute or approue your Ministery according to those particulars or if you can do neither of these yeeld to the truth against which you have so long strugled in vaine In vaine I say for proof whereof marke what followeth next in your Reply Your self confesse that even the Preachers for whome you plead have a wrong ordination from the Prelacy Thus your owne mouth M. Iacob is witnes against your self that al your labour is in vaine Shall I yet make it more plaine vnto you Marke then Your maine defence is from ‡ See before pag 3. and 6. the doctrine of your Church as it is publiquely professed and practised by Lavv. Now your Law admitteth no other ordination but that of the Prelacy And this your self here confesse is vvrong In what case now your Ministery standeth let others judge And take you heed you please not your self any longer in such vnrighteousnes The “ 2 The. 2.12 end thereof is fearefull But besides this estate of your Ministery you confesse here also for the body of your Church that you have a confusion of people that is in deed though you speak it not in word a spirituall Babylon For Babel is in English confusion Thus both for Ministery and people you give the cause having wearied your self in the defence of Babylon all in vaine Which is and will be the fruit of your and all other mens labours in this case So the * Ier. 51.58.64 Scripture hath foretold Your other writing ‡ See the next treatise follovving at the end of this touching the comparing of the condition of a Ministery vvith Mariage long since deliuered was also long since aunswered Vnto which I have not yet received any Reply not so much as words which is the most I look for from you at any time Where next you graunt it is Christs ordinance to haue a true Pastor to a faithfull people hold you there M. Iacob and you overthrow at once all your Churches and Ministery For you neither have proued neither ever will that so you have Begging of the question though you vse it never so often is nothing but words not any proof at all After this you come to that clause of your Article which requireth due administration of the Sacraments according to Christs ordinance First mynd that divers other particulars were related wherein you faile besides those you have here mentioned See them in my ‡ Before Pag 15. 16. 17. former aunswer Now if the corruptions of the
Antichristian Hierarchy and a popish ordering of Ministers strange from the vvord of God and the vse of all vvel reformed Churches in the vvorld And further Although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the booke of God Then touching the Sacraments thus they write The Sacraments are vvickedly mangled and prophaned Also In the primitive Churches they administred the Sacrament simply as they received it from the Lord vve sinfully mixed vvith mans inventions and devises Yea they charge the Prelates that they doe superstitiously and vvickedly institute a nevv Sacrament vvhich is proper to Christ onely marking the child in the forehead vvith a Crosse in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ And of your book of coÌ„mon prayer according to which your Sacraments and other divine service is administred thus also they write we must needes say that this book is an vnperfit book culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse book full of all abominations To conclude withall thus they testifie concerning these things controverted betweene them and the Prelates Neyther is the controversy betvvixt them and vs as they vvould beare the vvorld in hand for a cap a tippet or a surplus but for greater matters concerning a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church according to the vvord Which things once established the other melt away of theÌ„selues Being once established say they Therefore yet they did not account they had them And whereof speak they All may see of a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church Now speak your self Mr. Iacob Do not these men testifie to your face that you have avouched a bold and impudent vntruth wilfully striving against the cleare light Yet I have cited but a few and those onely out of the Admonitions to the Parliament Out of which and the rest of their writings I might alledge a thousand mo to convince you herein But that would be too tedious And these I doubt not will cleare the point and suffice any that are indifferent and godly minded For your self I say no more but wish you had not verified the Orators saying He that once passeth the bounds of modestie becomes impudent out of measure Hitherto of the first Exception Chap. 5. The second Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforesayd Fran. Iohnson SEcondly tell vs whether you hold and professe Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other And if you do then shew vs how your practise agreeth with this profession H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 2. Excep TO this second Exception That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King I aunswere The Booke of Articles our Ministers now and Congregations generally do hold and professe the same our practise being answerable likewise therevnto euen as before time Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and such like with their Congregations did then viz. That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King and to be obeyed in his owne ordinances onely in no other This I say we generally professe and practise Hovvbeit this note vvith all vve hold Christs ordinance to be of tvvo sorts writteÌ„ or vnwritteÌ„ the first necessary the secoÌ„d arbitrary The first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the invvard opinion only such as these The doctrine of God his Nature his Persons his Properties of the Messias Christ Iesus of Iustification of Sanctification of the ResurrectioÌ„ c. Wherein standeth the †1 Cor. 3.12.13 foundation of saving faith All these must be in the vvritten vvord or els to be none of Christes The second touching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truely called and counted Christes ovvne also although particularly deuised and appointed by the Church vvhom Christ hath authorised therevnto euen as it shall be thought most fit and profitable for the preseÌ„t times places and persons such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies to be because they be not simply of the foundation neither written nor certen nor perpetuall but at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate and yet to be Christes ovvne neuerthelesse vvho hath left this libertie for the Church to vse Thus vve hold and thus vve practise and vve are persvvaded no Scripture to be against all this but rather for it I speak novv concerning our Ministers and Congregations generally that is our publique Church state If you say but there are divers amongst vs that thinke othervvise I aunsvver But this is the generall estate both of our Ministers and Churches hovvsoever one or tvvo amongst huÌ„dreths or thousands may thinke othervvise shevv the contrary if you can And our Churches they certenly must be deemed after their generall estate and constitution not as one or tvvo men thinke If you say this generall opinion and practise is an error Therfore they obey not Christs ordinances in truth herein though they thinke they do I aunsvver let it be so it is novv “ An error though not fundamentall the error of their iudgment as it vvas in Maister Cranmer Ridley c. Not pregnaunt rebellion and disobedience to Christ not a convicted or seared conscience so that their other “ 1 Cor. 3 1â—.15 truthes of the foundation are not frustrat nor Christ made to none effect in them And this is all our question whether they remaine Christians still for all these faultes yea or no. F. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Excep IN this Exception we demaunded first if you held Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other then how your practise agreeth with this profession One would have thought it had ben needfull if you could to have cleared this poinct by the Scriptures and from thence to have proved your Ministery worship Church gouernement c. which are called jn question to be no other then the Lord Iesus Christ that Prophet Priest and King of his Church hath in his Testament given and appointed therevnto But this you have not done And let the Reader note it But what then do you say First you tell vs That touching this poinct your profession and practise now is so as before time it vvas vvith M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer and their CoÌ„gregations But what of this Can the persons or age of these whom you name nay can any person or ages preiudice the truth Were not they subiect to error at all Or must their errors bind vs Did not Iohn Hus that champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs in former times say and heare Masse even to their dying day See their historyes in the Acts and Monuments not seeing the abominations thereof And did not divers of them acknowledge some the Popes calling and Supremacy some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some
thousand such like which are all of them concerning the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church By your Diuinitie these and infinite such like are vnvvritten and vncerten but left onely to the pleasure of the Church and Magistrate Yea if it please you the Princes and ciuill Magistrates may them selues be the publique Ministers of the vvord Sacraments and Censures of the Church 2. Any that will may without a calling take vpon him to be a publque Officer in the Church 3. Women may baptise or administer the Lords supper 4. The Iewish Romish or Heathenish Priesthood may be retained 5. Auricular confessiō may be vsed 6. The Keyes of the kingdome of heauen may be appropriated to the Pope of Rome or the Prelate of Canterbury or any other whōsoever 7. The Prelates and their Officials excōmunications do bind in heaven 8. The Apocryphall books and Decretall epistles are Canonicall scriptures 9. The Popes Portuis and the English book of prayer taken out of it are the true and lawfull worship of God 10. The Prelates and Priestes are the true and lawfull Ministers of God 11. Orders Penaunce Extreame vnction Matrimony c. are the Sacramentes of the Church 12. Surplus Cope Cap Tippet Rotchet c. are ornaments of the Ministery Finally all ragges and trumperies of the Romish religion are good and lawfull if it please the Church and Magistrate For why They concerne the outward gouernement orders and ceremonies of the Church And touching them you say Christ hath left no ordinances written certen not perpetuall but left them at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate Is not this strange Diuinity Yet you stay not here neither but as men that have bent their tongues like bowes for lyes you feare not to adde further that when the Church and Magistrate appointeth any ordinances whether these or any other touching the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church we are to account them Christes owne who hath left this liberty to the Church for to vse O shameles mouth O vnchristian hart Can any Papist or Atheist say more Or can any desire a more euident proof then this that you and your Assemblies thus holding professing and practising as here your self affirme cannot in this estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians and Churches Sixtly you do yet further seek shifts and would colour the matter by pretending That the things which concerne outward gouernement and ceremonies are not of the foundation simply But this will help you no more then the other For first we aske are they of the foundation at all though not simply If they be then seing they are not written nor certen nor perpetuall as here by you is affirmed it will follow that neither the whole foundation is written certen or perpetuall neither the Apostles were faithfull and skilfull maister builders in the laying thereof If they be not then why is this word simply added as if you granted they were of the foundation though not simply Secondly we aske whether the outward gouernement and ceremonies ordained by Christ for his Church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation asmuch as the outward gouernemēt and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the Law Or if they be whether they are not as faithfully set downe by Christ as the other were by Moses and as carefully to be observed by vs as the other were by the Iewes or rather more inasmuch as * Heb. 3.2.3 Christ the Sonne is worthy of more glory and honour then Moses the seruant Thirdly we aske what fundamentall poinctes Moses and Aaron with the rest of the Iewes ioyning with them held that ‡ Num. 16. chap. Corach Dathan Abiram and their cōpanions held not differing frō them and erring onely touching the Priesthood and Ministery which concerned the outvvard orders and gouernemēt of the Church Was therefore Corah Dathan Abiram and their companie in that estate the true Israell of God Or were not the other truthes they held by this meanes frustrate and of none effect vnto thē Nay were they not therefore vvholy to be separated from and left to the iudgment of God which overtook them and all that ioyned vnto them Yet was their error onely in matters of order and outvvard gouernement of the Church This may serve to convince your vntrue assertions in this place To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c is aunswered before For conclusion I adde concerning this poinct That all such assemblies and people as hold professe and practise as doth the Church of England these abominations following can not by the word of God be esteemed in such estate truely to holde Christ their Prophet Priest King viz. 1. The confusion of all sortes of people though never so wicked and their seed in the body of the Church 2. The offices and callings of other Archb. and Lordb. then Iesus Christ also of Archdeacons Priestes halfe Priestes Parsons Vicars c. 3. The entrance into the Ministery by another way and other Lords then Iesus Christ 4. The executing of it vnder these strange Lords and leaving it at their pleasure 5. The preaching of the word administration of the Sacraments and governing of the Church by vertue of the offices and callings aforesayd and according to the Popish Canons and constitutions 6. The power of Excommunication in the Prelates alone and their Officialls 7. The confounding of Civill and Ecclesiasticall offices and authority in the Ministers of the Church 8. The forbidding of Mariage at certen seasons 9. The imposing and vsing of stinted deuised Leiturgies The English Portuis taken out of the Popes Latine one word for word saue that a few of the grosest things are left out yet keeping the same frame and order of Collects Psalmes Lessons Pater nosters Pistles Gospels Persicles Respondes c. 10. Appointing holy daies to all Sainctes and Angels to the Virgin Mary Iohn Baptist Mark Luke and twelue Apostles severally 11. togeather with Fastes on the Evens and on Ember dayes Fridayes Saturdayes and Lent 12. Prescribing the Ministers to pray over the dead over the Corne and Grasse at some season of the yeare and over Women at their Churching or purification 13. Enioyning them to marry with the King which they make a sacramentall signe 14. And to Baptise with the signe of the Crosse with Godfathers and Godmothers with questions demaunded of the infant that cannot speake nor vnderstand 15. Giving power to Womē to baptise 16. And ordaining that the other Sacrament of the Lords Supper be celebrated kneeling as when they received their maker and with change of the words of Christes institution taking in steed of them the wordes of the Popes Masse book translated into English c. Finally the vpholding of these and all such amongst them onely by carnall weapons of imprisonment death confiscation of goods bānishmen and such like The Assemblies and people I say which hold professe and practise as doeth this
Church of England the abominations aforesayd concerning the outward order and gouernment of the Church whatsoever trueths they hold besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest King in such constitution of a Church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the vvord of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted Churches of Christ And this is all the question between vs. 7. Lastly let the godly and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not follow vpon your aunswer in this place First that the Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Which is contary to 1 Tim. 3.15 2 Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1 Cor 4.6 Rev. 22.18.19 Secondly that the man of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fully furnished to euery good worke Which is contrary to 2 Tim. 3.17 1 Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.113 Thirdly that Christ himselfe in vvhome the treasures of vvisdome and knovvledge are hid yet was so foolish carelesse and vnfaithfull as having an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it any Offices Lawes and Orders for the due governing and ordering thereof Which is contrary to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Esay 33.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. Rom. 12.3.4.5.6.7.8 Mat. 28.20 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Finally that the Hierachy Worship Sacramēts Traditions Canons and vvhatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outvvard orders and gouernement of the Church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes ovvne Which is contrary to 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 Psa 94.20 119.21.113.128 Rev. 9.1.2.3 14.9 11. O shameles impietie This doubtles is that strange passion and meere desperatenes wherewith you do hereafter vniustly charge vs which we will not here prosecute as it deserveth but exhort you onely to take heed least that vvo come vpon you which is written VVoe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darkenes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter VVo vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esay 5.20.21 H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 2. Excep IN this your defence of your second Exception it pittieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be out Prophet Priest and King if we professe to obey him in his ordinances in no other I ansvvered vve do cōstantly professe so as vve professe so vve practise But to make our profession and practise in this poinct more manifest I noted hovv our state meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and hovv he is to be obeyed viz. That the vvritten vvord ought of necessity to shevv vs our invvard and meer spirituall beleif and obedience As for the outvvard Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to be appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no vvhere forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication tvvo thinges First it is foule vvrong to our Churches and to my vvordes to say as you do That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though external yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangeable by the Scriptures My expresse vvords and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our onely and absolute King and Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitiously depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our state but I say Thus to beleeue and practise simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt aunsvver you deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to be saued vvherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct vvhich in the beginning I charged you vvith That all Churches and Christians here in King Edvvards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tailor c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they vvere lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see hovv malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry and say against you O shamelesse mouth O vnchristian hart vvhich termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practise as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches now Yea betwene your owne lately and ours novv speake out vvhat is it You can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outvvard Church order vvhich vve do But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity vve malitiously they of ignorance vve of plaine obstinacy and hauing a convicted and seared conscience vvhereby they and you might be true Christians for all these errors but vve novv cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against vvhich all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Secondly we now erre not in these poincts of simplicity but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you know euery mans hart and conscience so well If you do then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whome you dare say are convicted in conscience That is much also to affirme But if you do that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and cheifest in authority that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blasphemed in denying him and yet the Assēblies then were not conuicted they still were true Churches
is to seek new shifts and euasions Which yet are to no purpose at all except against your self and your Church For the first you say it is foule wrong to your Churches and to your words to say That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures If it be any wrong it is done by your self Are not these your owne words towching your Churches opinion in your ‡ Pag. 28. former Reply We hold Christs ordinance to be of two sorts written or vnwritten the first necessary the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is towching faith and the inward opinion onely c. the second towching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truly accounted Christs ovvne though particularly deuised by the Churche such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies because they be not simply of the foundation neyther vvritten nor certaine nor perpetuall c. How say you to these words All outvvard gouernement and ceremonies Are they not your owne And is it not your Churches opinion by your owne saying Have I then gathered or written otherwise then your self affirme your Church holdeth If I haue then lay your words and myne together and let them speak for both If not let the Reader iudge whether you haue not done me foule vvrong and if there be any to your CHVRâ—ch whether your self have not committed it Quitte your self of it as well as you can Besides you forget your self wondrously and speak things contradictory For now speaking of your Churches opinion and your owne words you say it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though externall yet are perpetuall things and necessary and vnchangeable by the Scriptures Yet before you told vs your Church holdeth all outvvard gouernement ceremonies orders to be vnvvritten vncertaine not perpetuall but arbitrary to be appointed and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate Eyther there fore to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. are not outward neyther concerning the governement ceremonies nor orders of the Church or els without question you ‡ Mendatem oportet esse memoâ—em forget your self straungely and speak daggers which runne into your owne bowels But to take that which now the euidence of the truth hath wrung froÌ„ you seing to preach to pray to administer Sacraments though externall yet are perpetuall necessary and vnchangeable by the Scriptures you must eyther from the Scriptures show that you haue these according to Christs ordinance or els yeeld that your practise is contrary to the professing of Christ for your Prophet Priest and King to be obeyed in his ovvne ordinance onely and no other And consequently that the AssuÌ„ption of your mayne Reason is false Which is to yeeld the cause And mynd withall that * Eph. 4.11 and 6.18 Rom. 12.7.8 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. c. 1 Tim. 3.15 5.17.8.6.13.14 Mat. 2â— 19.20 1 Pet. 5 1-4 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Christs ordinance is not onely for these things to be done but for the offices wherein and the manner whereby they are to be performed If you wil not beleev me nor the Scriptures alledged yet heare your owne men what they teach in this poynt Mr. Cartvvright saith “ T. C. first Rep. pag. 83 God hath not onely ordeyned that the vvord should be preached but hath ordeined also in vvhat order and by vvhom it should be preached And againe speaking of the Iewes Church he saith as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any strange doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function then vvas instituted by God The Admonitions Counterpoyson Demonstration and many other your writings affirme the same both for preaching and Sacraments and other points of the outward order and governemeÌ„t of the Church And now I remember my self your self have confessed it ‡ Pag. 19 before in playne termes when you graunt it is Christs ordinance to have a true Pastor to a faithfull people and would have vs beleev that it is false to say you preach in straunge functions or have not the Sacraments duly ministred etc. I hope therefore in your next we shal have proof not that you have Preaching Prayer Sacraments which we know the Papists also and Anabaptists haue but that you have them in those offices and after that maner which Christ hath ordeined Now where you say your expresse vvords and Churches meaning is that Any reasonable kind of Church gouernement rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor vvritten in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be your onely and absolute King Prophet neuertheles For answer hereof besides that already brought I will say no more to this Popish assertion but onely inferre herevpon as followeth But the Church-governement rites and orders which Christ in his Ttestament hath ordeyned vnchangeably are a reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement rites and orders Therefore these so vnchangeably ordeined by Christ yet by your owne expresse words and your Churches meaning are arbitrary and chaÌ„geable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet forsooth Christ is still your onely and absolute King and Prophet neuertheles Let vs now see Mr. Iacob what aunswer you will make herevnto without sclandering cavilling and malitious depraving The second note in your explication is that you say you justifie not the aforesayd opinion of your State But how then do your book and the title of it agree Nay how do your selfe and that title agree when you wil not defend that which is the very point of the coÌ„trouersie between your Churches and vs Was there euer a more absurd defence heard of But now leaving your Church in the briers yet speak for your self How do you Mr. Iacob hold Christ your Prophet Priest and King when seeing your Church to erre in so many and so waightie pointes and that so as you can not iustifie yet you haue not all this time admonished them and by due order either brought them to repentance or left them as obstinate in sinne and wilfully disobeying the voice of Christ Where you say that thus to beleev and practise as your Church doth simply destroyeth no mans saluatioÌ„ in Christ you take that for graunted which you should proue Besides that the Papists Anabaptists and others may say as much for other outward things among them Yea no doubt but Ieroboam him self and his Priests and people said likewise that for IerusaleÌ„ to be the place and the sonnes of Aaron the Priestes and such like these were outward things and not to obserue them or to beleev otherwise then Iudah did concerning them simply destroied no mans saluation in Christ Was this therefore a sound defence of their apostasie Or might any vnder such pretence have continued and joined with them therein Of your second generall point and so of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I haue spoken
they adde the persecuting also of such as do convince them Now when you have showed how your self vnderstand and how we are to walke in these according to the Scriptures from point to point then applie herevnto your example of Christ here alledged and see if you do not abuse it Mind withall that if you say Christ knew this as he was God you speak nothing to the question which is how men must walk toward men If you say he knew it as he vvas man then must you prove 1. that these Iewes were convicted in conscience that he was the Christ and yet denied and blasphemed him 2. that Christ knew this as he was man 3. that still he joyned in spirituall communion with them thus convicted 4. that the estate of your Ministers and people is such as theirs was then as touching a true Ministerie and constitution of the Church 5. that the same rules and proceeding is to be vsed toward your Church and members thereof afore they can be separated from that was to be vsed toward that Church and People at that time Mind also that the Apostles preaching to the Iewes though they knew not who were convicted in conscience who not yet * Act. 2. et 13. et 17. et 18. et 19. chap vpon their refusall of the truth offred did separate from all where they were And so Christ before had required them to do Mat. 10.14 Finally mind that mens consciences are blind ignorant corrupt and the heart of man deceitful and wicked above all things Who can know it but the Lord only which searcheth the heart and trieth the reines to give every man according to his waies according to the fruit of his works Ier. 17.9.10 It is erroneous therefore to hold as you do that we may not separate till we know all to be convicted in their conscience If this were to be done then neither separation from any people neither any true Churches should ever be vpon the earth because such conviction can never be either knowen of men or had in the world It doth and must suffice vs that the truth on the one hand and the errors on the other be made knowen and convicted that is be layd open and proved from the word of God by the testimonie of his servants and that we see men by words or workes refuse the truth and imbrace error and so judg themselves vnworthy of euerlasting life Thus for your Churches M. Iacob it sufficeth vs that in your Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of people they be proved the daughters of Babylon that mother of whoredomes Out of which God hath †Rev. 18.4 17.5 vve Ezec. 16.44 charged all his people without exception or delay presently for to depart If you or any other will not obey this commaundement of God but will still partake in the sinnes of your worship and Ministery what is it to vs We must follow Christ * Heb. 5.9 who is made author of saluation to such onely as obey him Neither may we †Ier. 15.19 returne vnto you but we must waite till God bring you to vs and make you partakers of the same grace in Christ Of your third generall point here idly mentioned and absurdly gathered I have spoken before Pag. 8. Next instead of aunswering you fall a marveling because I say Mr. Hus and other of the holy Martyrs did heare and say Masse to their dying day and some of them also acknowledg the Popes supremacy But why do you not also marvell that I sayd divers of them acknowledged some the Popes calling some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some Auricular confession and such like grieuous errors For these I ioyned with the other and of them you speak not a word Belike you thinke they may stand with the Gospell wel inough and if your Church had retained or now should resume them againe you would judg of them as of the other corruptions remaining among you Yet mind withall 1. that thus you make a way for mo popish enormities to be mainteined and to prevaile apace in your Church as “ Hovv say you to those Popish doctrines novv spreading among you of Christes soule descēding into Hel. of freevvill c. beginneth alredy very fast 2. And that you can no better nor otherwise defend your present Church-estate then you could if it also retayned seven Sacraments Purgatory Auricular confession c. Let the Reader observe this And beware you in time least a wo come vpon you for such halting and pleading for Baall Now for your marvelling at me for saying thus of Mr. Hus and other the Martyrs I aske you Saith not the book of Acts and Monuments the same yea say not the Martyrs thus much of themselves Why do you not then marvell also at them For these particulars it were needles to go through all the historie of the Martyrs specially seeing they are so plainly noted in their stories and every where among you the books are in your hands Yet because Mr. Hus is here spoken of by name and you are not far frō rasing him out of the nūber of the Martyrs I will first note some particulars concerning him and then cleare him and the rest from your rash condemnation In the historie of the Martyrs before mentioned we find that Iohn Hus vnto his death held 1. †Act. and Monu edit 5. pag. 561. seven Sacramēts 2. ‡ Ibid. pag. 581. a. 584. b the Popes office and the authority of the Church of Rome 3. “ Ibid. p. 566 b. et 574. Auricular cōfession to Priests and was himself a little before his death confessed and absolved by a Monke 4. * Ibid. p. 577 a. et 581. a. said Masse himself 5. †Ibid. p. 546 held that the substance of the bread was altered into the body of Christ and that Christs body which was borne of the virgin Mary is really and totally in the Sacrament of the Altar with other the like popish opinions Now you Mr. Iacob sticke not vpon some of these to inferre that then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest that so held and did vvere holy Martyrs Your reason is because therein are found errors plainely fundamētall vvhich of them selues abolish from Christ Among which no doubt but you reckon the Masse and transubstantiation specially Thus haue you cleane put out Maister Hus and other the servants of Christ faithfull in that which they saw from being any longer in the Catalogue of the Martyrs or accounted true Christians May I not then iustly returne vpon your self your owne saying Is this you that vvhite the toombes of the Martyrs and yet in fine condemne them for no true Christians for no holy Martyrs But you say the book of Acts and Monuments vvhither I send you affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Let the book it self speak for vs both In the end of Iohn Hus his storie thus it saith
notwithstaÌ„ding God saveth some LutheraÌ„s Anabaptists Papists erring in the points aforesaid If you denie it let vs have a sound aunswer to that profession of the Papists touching Christs Mediation which by themselves is mentioned in their Annotations vpon the new Testament where they professe that they hold * Rhemâ—â— Annot. vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Christ by nature to be truely both God and man to be that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his bloud as a ful and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes himself without need of any redemption never subiect to possibility of sinning againe to be the singular Advocate and Patrone of mankind that by himself alone and by his owne merites procureth all grace and mercy to mankind in the sight of his Father none making any intercession for him nor giuing any grace of force to his prayers but he to all none asking or obteyning eyther grace in this life or glory in the next but by him This doe even the Papists professe which you are well to mind Now though with it they hold divers fundamentall errors as in that and other their writings may be seen by which the multitude of them is turned out of the way of truth and salvation yet doubt I not but by this faith God hath saved some of them and mo at the first creping in of that Churches apostasie then since who in simplicity so beleev as is here set downe never hearing of the other opinions to be errors nor withstanding any truth revealed vnto them Now of the LutheraÌ„s and Anabaptists I hope so much the better as they hold mo truths and fewer errors then the Papists But to let those alone what say you to such of the Fathers of the Greek Church as held Freewill an errour which ‡ D. VVhiâ— book pa. 83. your selves teach and have published to be fundamentall and of it self damnable Or rather what say you to the Israelites in Egypt who though they were * Exod. 4.22.23 Gods church yet sinned in points by your owne account fundamentall even with ‡ Ezech. 20.6.7.9 the Idols of Egypt Will you say they were all condemned Either therefore we must discerne between the errors themselves what they are in their owne nature being so considered and between the persons holding them of ignorance and weaknes what mercy God may shew them in Christ or els you will coÌ„demne all of every Church wheresoever any fundamentall errors have crept in being through ignorance generallie received and so inwrap the Martyrs in like condemnation with their persecutors To give instance but of Iohn Hus it cannot be denied but he and they who martyred him agreed both in one touching the Masse transubstantiation c. Yet was Hus a faithfull witnes of Christ in the truth he saw and his adversaries vassals of Antichrist that sonne of perdition This I trust will suffice for the present to cleare the Martyrs of that vniust condemnation which you insinuate against them Now vpon this occasion note also that not onely some who erre in fundameÌ„tall points may be saved as is proved alreadie but ‡ 1 Cor. 6.9.10 some who erre not in any fundamentall point as you take it yet shall perish notwithstanding But of this see more hereafter in the handling of the 7. Reason following Further where I said that when Mr. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. dyed Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had themselves nor joyned in communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministerie now pleaded for You insult greatly as if I spake knowen falshoods But stay a while Maister Iacob and see if it be not your self that make no conscience of vntruths First why ‡ Pag. 36. left you out those wordes of mine when they dyed Did you perceive that these words make the case plaine and witnes the truth with me against your assertion Or know you not that all the Martyrs then were first excoÌ„municate out of that Church and if they were Ministers degraded also from their Ministerie afore they were put to death Must it not needs then be true which I sayd that when they dyed they neither had nor ioyned in communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Yea say not the Martyrs themselves and the book of Acts and MonumeÌ„ts as much To name but one Laurence Saunders when the Bishop of London had disgraded him said vnto him ‡ Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 1301. â— I thank God I am none of your Church And this was the case of them al being likewise dealt with as that book witnesseth Your Exception that Mr. Cranmer and Mr. Ridley stood vpon their right to their Bishopricks is of no waight against that I sayd It is not vnknowen that men do often stand against the vniust dealing of their adversaries in such things as notwithstanding they are willing inough to leave Whether it were so or not with them God knoweth Of this I am sure that where I spake of their not hauing you do in your Reply in steed thereof speak of renouncing And so you change my speach Which is not good though it be your vsuall dealing But yet by this appeareth that you can prove no vntruth in my speach howsoever you pretend and would gladly do it For if you could what needed you so alter and pervert the sence of my wordes And for my self if I had meant that Mr. Cranmer and Mr. Ridley had renounced as you pretend I could have joyned them with others in the sentence going before where I spake of Mr. Latimers forsaking his Prelacy which your self do here confesse to be true Besides I spake of the time when they dyed Martyrs you of the time before that But now what will you say to Mr. Ridley who as the * Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 1604. a. storie witnesseth at his degradation being bid to put on the surplus refused to do it and when they did put it vpon him with “ This vvas because he had ben a popish priest al the trinckets appertaining to the Masse did vehemently invâ—y against the Romish Bishop and all that foolish apparell calling him Antichrist and the apparell foolish and abominable yea to fond for a vice in a play This giveth more evidence of renouncing then of approving those things which before time he had liked to much Yet I denie not but even then he might be ignorant of the vnlawfulnes of the Prelacy as since that time God hath revealed it by his word and by that meanes it may be did like and stand for it more then otherwise he either ought or would have done But you say whosoever were Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they never renounced it though they dyed Maryrs If this were true and of waight you might by the same reason as well plead for the Romish Priests at this day
as for your owne You know that very many of the Martyrs were popish Priests And if there were no other proof even their degradation from that Priesthood doth testifie it You might also thus plead for retaining and allowing of Monks and Fryars because some of them have died Martyrs and yet not renounced their callings and functions This I alledged ‡ In the aunsvver to your 1. Replie to the 1 Reasō follovving heretofore but you cannot yet finde any leasure to aunswer it Yet now for that you speak here what will you say to †Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 934. a. such as being degraded of their Ministerie received from the Prelates thanked God that they were delivered from the malignāt Church of Antichrist Did they not by this and such like speach and cariage noted in their stories declare how willingly they left both that Church Ministery worship and whatsoever belonged thereto Although through ignorance of the time they saw not some things wherein since their daies God hath given a greater light To end this point then howsoever it be for their renouncing certaine it is as their stories show that such of them as had receved Ministerie from the Prelates were before their death not only excommunicate as were the rest of the Martyrs but degraded also from the functions and Ministerie they had received So as it cannot but be as I said that when they dyed Martyrs they neither had nor ioyned with the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for See the * Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 895. b. 934. a. 1361. b. 1385. a. 1604. a. storie in the degrading of Richard Bayfield Henry Forest Mr. Saunders Mr. Tailor Mr. Ridley c. Thus the bold vntruth wherewith you charge me falsly is returned iustly vpon your owne head Next after this which was in the beginning of my defence as your self have noted you come to the sixt point of my aunsvver passing by the other things which come between Is this to reply soundly Is this your worthy Confutation which your followers judge vnaunswerable What I pray may be the cause why you snatch thus here a peece and there a peece and prosecute not my aunswer in order from point to point as I gave it Is it because I handle things disorderly or passe by any thing in your Reply vnaunswered If I do show it But in deed is it not because you are not able to reply against my aunswer as it is given and therefore are glad to lay hold sometimes of one thing sometimes of another as you think you can best deale with that so you may trouble the Reader and seeme to say some thing when in deed you say nothing at all Let the Reader but well mind this Reply of yours and then judge if ever he saw anie thing more raw frivolous cōfused absurd Yet such as it is let vs see now what you say to that point of my aunswer whereof you speake next First you tell vs that where you said before the outward orders of the Church be not of the foundation simply you meant not at all of the verie foundation I see your meaning now Mr. Iacob which before I neither did nor could Sure you had need make a Commentarie vpon your Replie if you expound your words euerie where as you do here But now that you have told vs your meaning will you stand vnto it Do you indeed by not simply meane not at all Then marke what straūg assertions lurke in your writing which before we could not perceiue In one place you say * Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 7. Reasō following The Papists forbidding of marriage and meates if they had done no worse doth not make them departers from the faith that is not totally or as you have it in the Margent not fundamentally not simply And then you adde No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Now by your owne exposition your meaning is that none of these make them departers from the faith at all For by not simply you say you meane not at all Thus you teach most shamefull false doctrine and make the holy Ghost a liar who even “ 1 Tim. 4.1.3 for these things saith they do depart from the faith Againe you say ‡ Your 1. Reply to the 1. Reason following The doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions and practise of your Church do not ioyne togeather Christ and Antichrist simply that is not at all by this your new coined meaning And yet in the same place you confesse they ioyne togeather Christ and some outward ceremonies and orders of Antichrist It is false then that they ioyne not Christ and Antichrist at all as by this interpretation must be your meaning And even here a little before you said †Pag. 35. to beleeue practise as your Church doth for your Church-gouernemēt rites and orders simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ that is by this exposition not at all But your Church so beleeveth and practiseth these things as is derogatorie both to the office of Christ the faithfulnes of the Apostles and the perfection of the Scriptures and such as do not so beleeve and practise but witnes the truth against them they imprison banish kill and thus become guiltie of innocent bloud Yet you are bold to blesse your self your whole Church and greatest persecuters in all these mischiefs affirming that thus to beleev and practise destroieth not at all any mans salvation in Christ For when you say not simply you will have vs vnderstand your meaning to be not at all Yea you take it ill because I will not see this to be your meaning But now I doubt you will be more grieved because I see it so well Yet it were better Mr. Iacob if in time you were grieved at your self for vsing such vngodly elusions to turne away the truth See you not what pesriferous doctrine your Reply by this meanes yeelds euery where Marvell not at it It is just with God to make your owne pen the publisher of your owne follie and impietie seeing you will needs plead for Antichrist against the cleare light But let vs come to examine the point it self You say the outward orders of the Church are not at all of the verie foundation What say you then to that which is written Heb. 6.1.2 Doth not the Apostle speaking there †Heb. 6.1.2 of his laying the foundation mention in particular the doctrine of Baptismes and laying on of hands besides repentance from dead vvorks and consequently from mens traditions in Gods worship How say you Do not these concerne the outward orders of the Church And doth not the Apostle reckon them with the rest there named in his laying of the foundation I could also put you in mind how it concerneth the Churches outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be head of the church or Christ only whether Circumcision be now to be observed or not c. But these and
the like I have mentioned before and you I suppose will aunswer them at leasure Now where you quote some Scriptures in the margent See also for this in the Preface Section 3. it is to generall for your purpose You must prove your assertion by them Which yet you do not When you goe about it say if there be not of the foundation not only the particulars in * 1 Cor. 15 2.3.4 Rom. 4.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11 12 13 14. these Scriptures expressed but many other also here comprised though not named in particular As for exāple 1. that there is a God and but one 2. that there are three persons the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost 3. that the Sonne not the Father or holy Ghost tooke vnto him our flesh 4. that the true God alone must be worshipped and that onely according to his word and no otherwise 5. that Christ as head and King of his Church hath given offices and ordinances for the work of the Ministerie which are to continew to the end of the world 6. that he is to be obeyed therein vpon paine of damnation and no other to be received 7. that we must not only professe in word but practise indeed the commaūdements of Christ whatsoever persecution follow thereon c. Tell vs I say whether these and the like which other places of the word lead vs vnto be not both of the foundation and comprised in the Scriptures quoted by your self How idly then and absurdly do you cite them here To give an instance doth not the Apostle from the death of Christ mentioned in these Scriptures deduce in other places the necessity of our dying from the ordinances of the world from the traditions of men from voluntarie religion finally from all dead works whatsoever which he reckneth vp as a fundamentall point in that place to the Hebrewes before alledged Yea doth †Col. 2.8.18.19.20 c. he not from hence prove that we cannot hold Christ the head and increase with the increasing of God if we will togeather with him retaine the traditions and precepts of men for the seruice of God And are then no outward Church-orders of the foundation at all We will look for your proof and aunswer hereof in your next In the second place I propounded two questions vpon comparing togeather Moses and Christ You aunswer not one worde to the latter And in the former you kepe not my words which is a thing to commō with you knowing belike that the weaknes of your aunswer would then the more readily have ben seen My question was vvhether the outvvard gouernement and ceremonies ordeined by Christ for his Church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation as much as the outvvard governement and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the Lavv Your aunswer is Neither vvere the Ievves outvvard orders of the very foundation vvithout vvhich they could not be saved But speak out man were they of the foundation at all or not And when you have told vs this then know for your learning besides that alreadie spoken touching the foundation that the outvvard orders that is the outward ordinances ceremonies and gouernement which God prescribed to the Iewes were vnto them so of the foundation and necessarie to be observed as ‡ Deut. 27.26 curse and death was threatned to all that brake them Yea severe punishment even vnto death was executed vpon the transgressors of such things as seemed but small Levit. 10.1.2 1 Sam. 6.19 and 2 Sam. 6.6.7 2 Chron. 26.16.19 Now these things are written for our instruction to admonish vs vpon whome the ends of the world are come If yet notwithstanding you and your Church will presume otherwise be it at your perill Our soules shall not enter into your secret The third question here was about Corah and his complices Wherein in you deale as with the former not keping mine owne words It may be you thought by this meanes to hide the vanity of your aūswer Howsoever al the aunswer you give to the severall branches of it is only this that they were separated from and damned not that the matter vvas fundamental but that the manner vvas rebellious vvith consciences a thousād times convicted and so done vvith an high hand against God himself But how prove you this which you say And why aunswer you not to the severall points of the question in order as they were propounded It may be you will do this in your next Then in the meane time know that even the matter wherein they sinned was fundamentall if we consider it thus Their sinne was that not being Priests they would offer incense to God Now the Priehstood and offering vp of incense led them as it were by the hand to the Priesthood and Intercession of Christ Either therefore you must denie Christs Priesthood and Intercession to be of the foundation or els you must graunt they sinned in a matter in this respect fundamentall that is being thus considered Yet it was you see touching the Priesthood and Minjsterie which concerne the outward orders and governement of the Church Thus al your defence falleth to the ground Touching the manner also Corah and his complices had pretence for them selves aswell as your Prelates and Priests now have Read and mind well what great reasons they pretend Numb 16. Num. 16.2.3 And see if you can shew any greater yea or any the like for your selves Then speak whether that considered it be not as hard for you to affirme them so convicted in conscience as for vs to affirme it of you in England And now that I mind it let me aske of you Mr. Iacob in this case as you †Pag. 36. erewhile did of me in your owne Did their whole assemblies sinne thus all and every of their assemblies of wilfulnes and of a convicted consciēce Are you sure of this Do you know every mans hart and conscience so vvel If you do then you say somevvhat indeed But you are then neere as vvise as God himselfe to knovv mens hearts so perfectly vvhose faces you never savv c. How like you now your owne manner of reasoning Is it not verie proper think you and to great purpose But perhaps you will say the Scripture speakes asmuch as you do concerning them If it do why shew you not the places Why prove you it not from thence Nay then what say you Mr. Iacob to the litle children which perished in that cōdemnation as the * Num. 16.27.32 Scripture there witnesseth Will you say that they in that action were so rebellious as you speake of with consciences a thousand times convicted Or will you now confesse your Reply to be of no waight at all save against your self To which end I wish both your self and the Reader to note for a conclusion that here you graunt even for outvvard orders of the Church when men see the truth in their consciences and yet stand
in such case as Ieroboams was who altered but the outward ordinances of the Church as taking them to be things arbitrary at the pleasure of man Some of them I doubt not wil think you do them foule iniurie And if anie be done vnto you it is done by your self I say no more In the fourth likewise who is it of your owne Church that will not think you offer yet more iniurie both to the State and your self To the State in that you make them maintainers of Popish shifts To your self in that thus you bewray you are at a Non plus and yet yeeld not to the truth Did not your self in your first Replie vse these as good and soūd reasons And now they are convinced to be Popish have not a word to speak in defence of them but put vs over to the State for an aūswer Babell is sore wounded when all her best Physitians do thus give her over For the fift you referre vs to the first point of your explication before Which is aunswered For the sixt you referre vs to the second Which also is aunswered Neither is there any thing of waight in either of the places whither you send vs for aunswer of the particulars here conteined Let others mind if you will not what I said in the fifth and sixth aunswer before and see if your explications have any thing against them to any purpose The seventh you confesse to be against the state of your Church This I wish the Reader to marke And then having minded what I aunswered in the * pag. 34 seaventh place let him consider how wofull the estate of your Church is But now M. Iacob why defēd you not your Church seeing this is against the verie state of it by your owne confessiō Is not your book called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Why do you not then performe what the title of your book doth promise A worthie Champion sure you are to defend a Church that leave it thus in extream miserie without anie succour at all At first you seemed as if you would strike all downe afore you in defence of your Churches and Ministerie Now lo you can be content to leave them on the plaine field to shift for themselves so your self may have hope to scape by running away Before you told vs of the defence of your Churches Now you think it inough to say It is against the state of our Church and not against me Yet tell vs Mr. Iacob are you not a member of that Church And is not that then which is against the state of your Church also against you Otherwise it must needs be that your Church hath a strange estate or that you are a straunge member thereof Can the hand or eye say I am not of the bodie Or that which is against the state of the bodie yet is not against me Yet such is your aunswer as sencelesse as absurd Besides that thus whiles you think to pull your owne neck out of the collar you plunge both your self and your Church deeper in And note withall Howsoever you and such like disagree from the state of your Church in anie thing yet in this you can all agree well ynough to conspire against Christ and against his Church But so it hath ben of old Manasseh * Esa 9.20 21. and Ephraim though they were each against other were both against Iudah The Pharises and Sadducees though adversaries one to another yet ‡ Mat. 2◠15.23 Act. 5.17 handed togeather both of them against the Lord Iesus Hitherto of the seaven particulars I obiected Which all of them remaine vntaken away And thus far of the second exception and your Replies against it In which I have staied the longer because the discussing hereof will more plainelie and without all question end the controversie between vs. Chap. 6. The third Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforseid Fr. Iohnson Thirdly shew by Scripture how the 36. Article of your doctrine and book alledged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The wordes of the Article are these as followeth The Book of consecration of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons doth conteine all things necessary to such consecration and ordering neither hath it any thing that of it self is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoever are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that book we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Also how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That the Apocrypha books and Homilies are enioined to be read in the Church by the Ministers diligently and distinctly As may be seen in Art 6 and 35. of that doctrine and book aforesaid H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocrypha bookes and Homilies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the vvhole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I aunsvver you should have said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Els the Argument follovveth not But then vve denie flatly the Antecedent or first part of the Reason But your Reason you vvill say shall goe as you have put it Then marke these reasons even as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is vvhite of his teeth therefore he is a vvhite man A Svvanne is black of his bill Fr. Io. therefore a Svvann is black * Note that Mr. Iacob hath added this since he received aunswer to the former It was not in the copy before Such also are almost all his notes in the Margent and some alteration in his Replies specially in his first Reply to the Seaventh Reason following Let the Reader observe this dealing My Brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a vvodden legge therefore my brother is no true man Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Excep VVHat the third Exception is you see Have you now as was before required of you shewed these things by the Scriptures Not at all First then marke that although wee call neuer so much for proof and evidence from the Scripture yet you neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shifts and deuices As if our consciences were to be built vpō your fancies and not vpō the written word of God But what do you say to our demaund First you tell vs these thinges do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Next you graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as black doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this your similitudes doe import Where you alledge That these things destroy not true Christianity we answer that euen that Hierarchy worship cōstitution and gouernement which you professe and practise as appeareth
* Ezech. 43.8 that they set their posts and threshalls by Gods posts and Treshalls that is their inuentions by Gods ordinances Howe also was it that the Samaritans spoken of 2. King 17. sacrificed to the true God euen “ Ezra 4.2 the Lord God of the Iewes offering vnto him burnt offrings and meat offringes and peace offringes Or howe came it they still vsed Circumcision and wayted for the Messiah to come as he was promised in the writen word of God yea knowing also and beleeuing not only that the Messiah should come which is called Christ Ioh. 4.25 but also that when he came he would tel them al things The Corinthian infidels in deed as the rest of the Heathen knew not the true God by his writtē word But so it was not with the Samaritanes or Tenne tribes fallen from Iudah as is euident by the scriptures and reasons before alleadged To that which you speak of your profession and practise referring vs to your answer to the Second Exception going before I haue there answered it Onely this I adde here That seing it cannot in truth be denyed but the publique constitution of your Assemblies and estate of your Ministers and people therin is a most impious transgressiō of the Second cōmādemēt which the Lord himself calleth “ Nūb. 15.39 Revel 11.8 17.1.2.3.4.5 spiritual whoredome against him yea grieuous iniquitie and hatred of him threatning also to ‡ Exod. 20.5 visit it vpon the Fathers and children so remayning to the Third and Fourth generation Therefore by it are the truthes you professe made frustrate vnto you in this estate Neither will it help you to pretend that it is your error in iudgement For what abomination is there that might not thus be coloured And further seeing your publik professiō and practize is at the best a ioyning of Christ Antichrist togeather as hath bene shewed therefore can you not by the word of God be deemed in this estate to bee true Christians or true constituted Churches And the Scriptures applyed to proue this consequent are fitlie alleadged False therefore it is that you say we sinned against the Third commaundement in the application of the Scriptures aforesaid That is your owne common custome and lamentable sinne to break this commaundement by taking Gods name in vaine not onely in falsifying and peruerting the Scriptures for your turne but in your administration also of the Word Sacraments Church-gouernment by vertue of such offices callings as Christ neuer appointed but were first devised and are reteined by Antichrist Hitherto of your answer cōcerning the proof of the Propositiō To the proof of the Assumption you †Let the Reader therfore mynde in Mr Iacob this his sound and Scholler-like dealing answer not a word Fr. Io. which yet most of all required answer if you would in deed soundlie defend your estate as you pretend That your profession and practise ioyneth Christ Antichrist togeather I shewed by your Articles Canons Iniunctions Aduertisements c. by your present Ministery Worship Church-gouernement according therevnto If it be not so why bring you not warrant for these from the Testament of Christ and so take away the proof of the Assumption If it be so as by your silence you graunt and we are sure by the Scriptures the contrary cannot be showed then the Assumption standeth firme and consequently in this constitution you cannot be accounted true Christians nor your Assemblies so gathered true constituted Churches H. Iacob his 2. Reply vnto the 1. Reason IN this your defence of your first Reason you would first of all fasten on me a contradiction for graunting that our Church corruptions are from Antichrist which against your Second Exception I sayd we holde to be Christes owne viz. Because we hold Christ hath giuen his Church that libertie to deuise them Alas it pittieth me to see your simplicity or it greeueth me for your malice vvho could not see that there * See Pag. 28. 35. I spake in the person of our vvhole Church and state and shevved vvhat they held And here I speak as I thought my selfe This is a silly contradiction Then you say Pag. 62. I dazell the peoples eyes in saying some outward orders and ceremonies are from Antichrist as if they were but few and of small moment Therefore you are content to recken them vp full tediously God knovveth euen 91. in number numero Deus impare gaudet And vvhat of all these vvill you say therefore that vvhosoeuer holdeth these cannot hold Christ vnto saluation And so Mr. Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs vvere damned But if not Then I say againe These some these 91. are too few and too slight and of too small moment of themselues and of their owne nature to abolish vs from Christ This ought you to haue proved which you never do but still your speach is most false and not vnproper onely that we ioyne Christ and Antichrist togeather As in the maimed man before ‡ Pag. 57. 62. noted there is not life and death ioyned togeather but living things and dead things are and yet the man aliue and a true man Then you will iustifie your applying the ‡ 2 Cor 6.14 c. Eze. 43.8 2 King 17.33.34.40.41 Scriptures which I sayd were mismatched and were meant against the Idolatry of the First commandement not against the Idolatry of the Second onely and meerlye as our Church orders in question are Therefore these Scriptures cannot inferre any abolishing from Christ by simple holding of the corruptions in our Church vvhich they doe proue by the simple holding of those Heathenish Idolatries vvhereof they speake To this you reply in Foure points 1 If these places bee meant of Heathenish Idolatrie which could never stand with Gods truth togeather Yet they forbid all other corruptions against the Second commaundement also That I neuer denied to be true after a sort These places indeede do forbid the breach of the Secōd commaundement but not principally directly and of purpose nor in that measure of fulnes But their immediate purpose is against the Heathenish Idolatry breaking the First commaundement So that they forbidde the breach of the Second commaundement consequently and proportionately but not in that full manner as they doe the First They forbid the First so as that they shew there is no cōmunion vvith God vvhilst men ioyne in such Idolatry they simply forbid the Second but deny not all communion vvith God to vvhome soever erreth therein 2 To your Second Reply I say make much of it for my parte I neuer thought other but our church corruptions are against the Second commaūdement 1 Sam. 15. Your second Scripture here applyed is of Saull a presumptuous and vvilfull offendour if you make our vvhole Churches so your sinne is the greater 3 Thirdly if you meane any of Antichrists Idolatrie and false vvorship and namely this in question the outward corrupt orders
Agayne when in the first place you say thus we practise and in the latter we shevved before and both these are true of your self who could exclude you from being one of the number in both the places Further it is here to be noted how playnely you affirme these two things agayne 1. That your Church-corruptions are from Antichrist 2. That yet your Church holds them to be Christs owne A most silly absurd and godles defence of a Church as ever was seen That it is tedious vnto you to have your corruptions reckned vp it is no marvell Yet if they be so odious as it grieue you to heare them but named why doth it not more affect you to practise them to partake in and with them and so to increase your sinnes and iudgement before the Lord Heretofore when you preached against them and sued to the Parliament to haue them remoued it was a pleasure to you and all the Reformists to name them to print them to make your pulpits ring of theÌ„ and every where to cry out against them as most filthy and abominable Then if any reckned vp “ Admon to the Parl. Miles Monopodius The Râ—gisur c. above an hundred of them together one after another they were nothing tedious but very welcome Now to mention or heare but some of them is altogether yrksome A very great and strauÌ„ge alteration yet in deed not to be marveled at if it be well mynded For then you seemed to seek and stand for the truth now you resist and strive against it then you would professe Christ against the Prelates now you do hand your selues with them against him And yet behold in all these evils you blesse your selves and them toâ— For what els is this that you say these multitude of Antichristian abominations abolish vs not from Christ Is it not as if you sayd ‡ Deut 29.19 We shall have peace though we walk according to the stubbernes of our hearts Alas Mr Iacob that you should come to this height of impiety thus to blesse and please your selves in the vnrighteousnes of Antichrist that some of perdition then which what greater iudgement could haue come vpon you 2 Thes 2 12. This is not to break and teach to break one of the least commaundements but many of the greatest Mat. 5.19 Now vnlike are you and such other false Prophets of the Beast which say these are to fevv to sleight of to small moment c. How vnlike I say are you to the Prophets of God and Martyrs of Iesus who did alway cry out and witnesse against the least Idolatry they saw amoÌ„g the people They did not sow pillowes vnder their elbowes as you do but denounced the judgements of God against them and refused to partake in their iniquitie So do not you But this belike is your following of Christ this is your obedience of faith even to plead for Antichrist and to do the works of darknes and abomination and yet to say with your hypocriticall forefathers Is not the Lord among vs No evill can come vnto vs. Micah 30 11. Yet you would have vs beleâ—â— that you go not about to dazell the peoples eyes c. Yes Mr. Iacob you do it and proceed in it daily from evill to worse But flatter your selues and them towching the constitution of your Church as long as you will with your lying words of Christ of fayth Ierem. 7.4 c. like as the Iewes amidst all their impieties still vaunted of the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord c. yet this remaineth vpon your heads notwithstanding that these abominations of Antichrist retained among you do of themselues and of their owne naturâ— abolish your Assemblies from being the Churches of Christ or holding his faith in that constitution and practise This I haue proved †Pag. 3.16.60.63 c. before wherein if you rest not you may reply againe Or if you desier more evidence see these Scriptures 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 2 Thes 2-12 Col. 2.8.20.21.22.23 Psal 119.21 Ephes 5.11 1 Ioh. 4.3 and 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Rev. 13.11 and 14.9.10.11 and 17 1-6 and 18. and 19. chap. and 22.18 19. And for mans record see Mr Beza who is as playne as playne may be In an epistle written in the yeare 1566. to Mr Grindall then Bishop of Lord â—â— concerning the present estate of the Church of England thus he saith If those things be true Bez. Epist. 8. vvhich I think haue not likely hood of truth viz that the Metropolitans retaine in vse those most filthy abuses then which the Church of Antichrist hath not any thing more intolerable namely pluralityes of benefices licences of non-residency licences to marry and eat flesh and other the like this vvere certainely vvhich I speak with horrour not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ and therefore they not to be condemned but praysed rather vvhich should oppose themselues to such endevours These are his words Where note 1. That the things are most true and rise among you which he thought were not so much as likely 2. That he speaketh but of fower or five of your corruptions and yet sayth they are a manifest apostasy and departure froÌ„ Christ yea such as he affirmeth he speaketh not without horrour How miserable then is the estate of your Church which hath not onely these fower or five but even an huge masse and endles multitude besides And how fearfull is the case of you all who will yet notwithstanding still abide in that Church and therefore cannot but partake in her sinnes Rev. 13.4 and be subject to her plagues Most of all what an heavy Wo hangeth ouer your head Mr Iacob who feare not yet so boldly to affirme that these some these 91. are to fevv and to sleight and of to small moment of themselues of their owne nature to abolish you from Christ Is not this to strengthen the hands of the wicked that he should not returne from his wicked way by promising him life Is it not to say vnto him Thou art righteous every one that doth evill is good in the sight of the Lord and he deliteth in them Yea is it not to please your selves in vnrighteousnes to condemnation Ezech. 13.22 Mal. 2.17 2 Thes 2.12 Then also why proue you not that which you say You heare beside the Scriptures before alledged that Mr Beza speaking but of fower or five of your abominations sayth they are a manifest defection from Christ Now I suppose you will not deny but manifest defection from Christ doth of it self and of it owne nature abolish from Christ Besides if it be true of fower or five of your corruptioÌ„s how much more of your 91. yea of your hundreds Specially when to the retayning of them you haue now a long tyme added persecution against the truth for the maintenance of them Or what will you aunswer to your self Mr Iacob who haue
here confessed them to be * Pag. 37. errors and †Pag. â—1 69 orders of Antichrist ‡ Pa. 70.71 sinnes against the Second commaundement c. Every sinne you know doth of it self and of it owne nature make subject to the curse Deut. 27.26 Psal 119.21 Rom. 6.23 So if there were no other thing yet even by your owne confession the curse of God hangeth ouer your heads And how wofull then is your estate Mynd withall that when your self can not deny but your corruptions are of Antichrist and it is certayne that Antichrists Church even through the corruptions of their constitution is abolished from being Christs you had need cleare this poynt well or els you leaue your Church in a miserable taking euen in this behalf Help it now if you can Your stale obiection and abuse of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs is aunswered before Pag. 8. 40. 41. That the speach is both true and proper when I say you ioyne Christ and Antichrist together I need not further prove seing your self can not deny but all the abominations of Antichrist before rehearsed with many mo Pag. 63. c. are still retayned in your Church And tell me Mr Iacob May not I aswell say you haue not Christ but some truths of Christ as you say you haue not Antichrist but some corruptions of Antichrist Or if I say so will you then graunt that the speach is proper Your comparison of a white Swan with a black bill I perceyve you can not defend Therefore you leave it and betake your self to another of a maymed man vvith a vvoodden legg Which yet fitteth not your estate neyther as may be seen before Pag. 59. 61. You must put the case of a deformed boast vvith the likenes of a mans face womans heare lyons teeth Rev. 9 7-2 horses body c. And then may all see plainely that although this have the likenes of some parts of a man yet it is not therefore a true maÌ„ but a monstrous beast notwithstanding Yea although you ioyne your dead woodden legge to the foresayd living parts thereof yet still it is no other but as it was even a very beast That it liveth will nothing help you for beasts have their life aswell as men haue theirs And you will not deny I suppose but Antichrist the man of sinne hath now lived and â—aged as a fierce and cruell beast by the space of many hundred yeares 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 13.11 one after another If your comparison then be meant of this beastly man as to pleasure you withall I will not deny but it may very well yet still your woodden leg will help it to go for no other but as it is a maÌ„ of sinne and a monstrous beast Next you come to the Scriptures by which I proved the Proposition and pretend as if you would make a direct aunswer and yet in deed do nothing lesse Aunswer me therefore in your next Whether do those Scriptures proue the Proposition or not If they do why do you not graunt it If they do not why do you not say so and shew it And tell we why you handle them as if they had ben brought to prove the Assumption and yet in deed leave vntowched that which was brought for the proof thereof Such ignorant and double dealing yll beseemeth a man professing so deep skill and syncerity as you do Yet least you please your self therein any longer I will note the folly and falsehood of your aunswer in the particulars 1. To the first you say you neuer denyed it to be true after a sort Now that which there I sayd was this ‡ Pag. 66. that these Scriptures forbid ioyning to Antichristian Idolatry and that false worship vvhich breaketh the second commaundement And such even †Pag. 70. here you graunt your Church corruptions to be So by your owne confession these Scriptures forbid to joyne vnto them Expound your after a sort as you please and alter my words after your manner as you think good All will not help Sure I am you do thus giue the cause For those Scriptures forbid not to ioyne to the true worship and Churches of God And all your minesing speaches when you say they forbid the breach of the Second commaundement but not principally directly of purpose c. what are they but so many testimonyes of your miserable halting and deceitfull dealing For if it were as you say were it not ynough to make you detest those sinnes and never to partake with them any more Hath not God to the Second coÌ„maundement annexed this severe threatning ‡ Exod. 20.5 I aâ—ielours God vvill visit this iniquity c. Doubtles God foresaw how the breach of this coÌ„maundement would be finally regarded and lessened among men professing the true God and therefore here annexed the threatning after the SecoÌ„d not after the First going before And tell me further if you could not thâ—â— plead for the popish Orders confession to Priests extreme Vnction prayer in an vnknovven toungue Purgatory c. To end this point then I say againe as I have shewed †pag. 67. 68 alreadie that the immediate purpose of “ Ezec. 43.8 2 King 17.32 c. two of these places is a-against the false worship which breaketh the SecoÌ„d coÌ„maundement proving such worship and worshippers to be reiected of God And the reasons vsed in the * 2 Cor. 6.14 c. third Scripture are aswell against the breach of the SecoÌ„d as the First convincing every such estate against whether commaundement soever it be to be in that case as cannot stand and accord with Christ and his Church The Scripture it self and the arguments deduced from thence in my former aunswer are so evident as I need not bring any further proof vnles you brought other maner Reply against them then yet you do 2. For the second you bid me make much of it Therefore to pleasure you I meane so to do To begin withall here you say directlie you never thought other but that your Church corruptions are against the Second coÌ„maundement And did you never think other in deed How is it then that you plead for your Churches retaining and practising of them yea holding of them to be Christs owne that is holding the transgressions of the Second commaundement to be Christs ordinances More speciallie for your owne part how is it that you were made Deacon or Priest of the Prelates Or being made in ignorance as many be that yet knowing these things since you will still execute those offices vnder them And submit to their Iniunctions Canons Articles c. Yea even to this day partake with all the Antichistian filth and corruption of your Church which you know to be against the Law of God Have you for gotten or do you not regard the ‡ Eâ—o 20.5 heavy sentence anâ—ered to the Second coÌ„maundement Or is it onely against some and not
against all the transgressions thereof Or will it take hold of others and shall you staye free Howsoever your self seem careles what you say or do yet let others mynd their fearfull estate in that Church which retaineth such a multitude of Antichristian corruptions here graunted by your self to be against the Second commaundement the breach whereof God hath threatned to punish most severely And let it be observed that you who have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches and Ministery yet cannot deny that to be your estate Behold then to what issue your Defence is come in the end And now that you see hovv much I have made of this point at your request forget not to thank me for it in your next Reply The Scripture here alledged you would turne away from your selves by saying it is of Saul a presumptuous offender 1 Sam. 15.23 But that Scripture is not for Saul onely but for “ 1 Cor. 10.11 Rom. 15.4 others likewise And how will you shew that Saul was a more presumptuous and wilfull offender then your self and your Church Nay how will you shew that his sinne was meerly of presumption and wilfulnes The Scripture mentioneth two other causeâ— alledged by himself ‡ 1 Sam. 15.15 an intent to sacrifice to the Lord and †vers 24. feare of the people 〈◊〉 and your Church can hardly yeeld like reasons for your selvâ—s â—et if you could they 〈◊〉 not sâ—â—nd before God as this Scripture witnesseth Your clause of making your whole Churches so importeth that you take the case of some the 〈◊〉 not of all among you to be as Sauls was Then take you heed Mr. Iacob and the rest of like iudgement and practise as you â—re What I think of your whole Churches as towching their constitution I have often shewed before 3. For the third I meane it of the Antichristian abominations remayning among you and the like Neither could you be ignorant hereof seing I had a litle ♣ Pag. 63.64.65 before reckned vp so many of them in particular But you would not seem to know it because you can not prove the contrarie against it For proof of my assertion I alledg these Scriptures Exod. 20. 〈◊〉 compared with 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 Col. 2.8 Revel 1â— â—0 10.11 with ver 4. ver 12. Revel 17 1-6 with Hos 2.2 Prou. 6.27 28.32 7.22.23.27 9 13-18 2 Thes 23-12 2 Ioh. vers 9.10.11 Your inwrapping of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I have vnfolded before Pag. 8.41 Of all the reasons and differences which I named concerning you and them you picke out but one or two and the rest you passe by Now of them which you except against the first is that they suffred to death for the truth they saw Which my words you have altered thus that they for seeke all the corruptions they saw But beside the alteration your answer also is to be noted I alledged hat the Martyrs suffred to death for the truth they saw you answer this belongeth to many thousands in England no lesse then to them Can you now iustifie either your dealing or your answer Or can you shew seme hundreds of your Church in stead of your manie thousands For myne owne part if you had thousands of such I wish they were many millions But I feare that the contrarie of your speach is to true viz that there are many thousands in England so far from suffring death for the truth they see like those Martyrs as they will not 〈◊〉 imprisoÌ„ment bannishement losse of goods or the like for that truth which they do not onely see but which themselues have heretofore professed preached sued for to the Parliament c. So far are they from for â—alâ—ing all the corruption they see that I may vse your owne words Yea who can think otherwise by their estate and practise but if a Queâ—â— Mary came againe which God for did the 〈◊〉 of the Land would 〈◊〉 as the Prince beleveth and be ready to receive againe the points of Poperie now reiected as it was heretofore after King Edwards decease Marke that I speake of the face of the Land generally not of ever it particular person therein Of divers among you I have better hope as I have shewed before pag. 7. Yet for your generall state as the questioÌ„ is who can say but you are readie to receive any religion or any thing in religion to go forward or backward even as pleaseth the Prince and best fitteth your turne for avoiding of trouble and enioying your ease wealth safety c. And where then be the many thousaÌ„ds you speak of Or may wee think this is to forsake corruption and hold forth the truth as the Martyrs did Nay Mr. Iacob it is far from it And this you may note as a great difference between your estate and the Martyrs and ioyne it to the other mentioned before pag. 40.41 Now where you say there are infinite of your Church that know not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignorant of redemption by Christ c. How shew you this to be true Although if it be it is no great commendation to your Church considering what meanes of further knowledg God hath vouchsafed since that tyme. But of this point I will not stand so much I aunswer that to make your comparison hold you must compare with those learned men the learned among you and with the vnlearned then the vnlearned of yours now So shall your self and others see how vntrue your speach is Although I doubt not but even many of the vnlearned among you who have knowledge of redemption by Christ know also more of the corruptions aforesaid then those learned men did Towching that you speak of my self I have aunswered before Pag. 41. The second thing you except against concerning the Martyrs is that I said the things now controverted were not then so called in question and coÌ„vinced against them by the Scriptures as now they haue ben against you So I sayd Now speak you were they or not If they were shew it If not yeeld it But you would have me to meane this towching some few among you and not of all If it were but so yet then the thing is done more synce then in those daies But in deed the calling in question and conviction of these things hath not ben onely to some few as you would perswade The Admonitions have ben to the whole Parliament which are as the body of the whole Land and gathered from all the quarters thereof Your preaching likewise against those corruptions hath gone throughout the whole Realme So have your books written and printed against them Finally our testimony by word writing imprisomnent exile death is knowen throughout the Land Why then would you have me speak this of some few that here and there might be picked out And whereas you cannot deny but the case of some among
whither you refer vs for it though there the Reader shall finde you aunswer not the severall Scriptures here alledged for proof of it In the meane time let this be noted that here againe you graunt your Church corruptions are against the Second commaundement Therefore may none that feare God and will be assured to escape his wrath bow downe vnto them Exod. 20.5.6 Deut. 5.9.10 and 6.10.11 and 28.15.16 c. Psal 106.29 Next where I speak of your breach of the second coÌ„maundement as being spirituall whoredome you except against it as if I mismatched things otherwise then they are in deed But how can that be seing the Scriptures ‡ Pag. 68. there alledged prove that which I said Or will you say your case is not spirituall whoredome which God in that commaundement hath straitlie forbidden and severelie threatned to punish This then being so it is your self Mr Iacob that mismatch things otherwise then in deed they are For your case is not as you would pretend by your similitude like a wanton word a light gesture or contenaunce or an immodest thought of a woman But I will tell you what it is like Even as when a woman vnfaithfull to her husband is found to commit filthynes with other men after whom she goeth a whoring Now such a one whatsoever smooth speach countenance or excuse she pretend yet is in deed an whore and for this cause to be divorced That your case is such your going a whoring after Antichrist whose ordinances Hierarchie worship confusion c. are retained among you testifies to your faces Fitly therefore do we applie the Scriptures against you and your selves it is that sinne against the Third commaundement in misapplying of them as I shewed sufficientlie in my former answer against which you can say nothing To the proof of the Assumption you yeeld now at length Neither can I otherwise thinke of your aunswer seing I have proved my speach to be proper and the Scriptures fitly alledged and you refuse to iustify your owne Articles and estate Yet least you should againe cavill and delude the Reader I aske you Have I not concluded the question in a Syllogisme Why then do you not aunswer directlie to some part of it Have I not proved the Proposition by Scripture and the Assumption by your owne Writings and practise The Conclusion then must needs be true vnles one of the Propositions could be disproved which you are so far from as you never go about to do it The marginall note then is no scoffe but a iust reproof of your ignorance which in deed deserveth much more But I spare you and leave it to others to iudge whether you do any thing els in all you say but winde in and out to hide the truth and blinde the Reader if you could The Scriptures which I alledged for proof of the Proposition you handle as if I had brought them for proof of the Assumption Who is it now think you that is in a dreame Agayne your owne Books profession and practise by which I proved the Assumption you towch not at all Nay you say plainely it is no part of your mynd to iustify them Whether it be for that you see they can not possibly be iustifyed or because you want skill in your self or charity towards your Church for the doing of it let others inquire Sure I am that thus you give the cause For this belongs directly vnto it as all may see that have any vnderstanding and your self I suppose will not deny when you have called your wits a litle better togeather Chap. 8. The second Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THat which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine that cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proved That which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God by the precepts of Man that appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in EnglaÌ„d appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Articles of the book alledged and by their other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Common prayer their Holy dayes Fasting dayes Censures Hierarchy c. All which are the precepts of men and authorised by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. IACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third Exception Pag 57. 2. Also note I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were then of the true visible ♣ Marke his open contrariety with hiÌ„self granting this in Reas 6 Church with vvhom Christ and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometimes ioyne and communicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably FR. Io. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Reason THe Reason is as you see it propounded before Nâ—w what propositioÌ„ do you deny Not any at all What defence then bring you of your book of Common prayer and the particulars therein of your books of Articles and Iniunctions of your Prelacy and other Ministery receyved froÌ„ then according to your popish Pontificall of your Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none neyther What then do you answer Not a word but that you refer vs to your answer before in the last Exception whither also we refer the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for answer of any proposition of this argument or for defence of your worship Prelacy Ministery and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answer Have you not may we thinke good proof for your present estate and Church-constitution which thus leave it altogeather without defence even when it most needeth and as it were beggeth your help and succor if you could affoard it any Yet now having no aunswer to any part of the Argument you bid vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alledged is verifyed of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometyme ioine and communicate This therefore you say maketh for you and against vs most notably 1 But first tell vs if ‡ As that of Lev. 10.1.2.3 Num. 16 1.
Disciples who also were Iewes observed them not and therefore the Pharisees complained Thus you see they were not received of all the Iewes as heretofore I shewed not onelie in the Disciples but in divers other by name Pag. 84. Of whom you cannot denie but it is true They were the personall sinnes of some not the publik established Law neither generallie received and practised in that Church as I noted yours to be in your Assemblies that is of all the members thereof Neither is there anie comparison between yours and theirs as besides that which I have shewed before may appeare even by the vvaterpots here mentioned by your self Of the lawfull or vnlawfull vse whereof I need not stand to speak it being evident that they were no waie so vnlawfull or of such nature as your corruptioÌ„s are Let this then which hath ben said suffice to shew how true and pertinent my aunswers be That there is no contrariety between anie thing spoken here and in the sixt Reason following the Reader may see And that it is your self who do evill and defend it too there need no other witnes but the title and contents of your book togeather with your estate Concerning the thing which here you obiect I have proved alreadie that * Mat. 15.9 this and ‡ See before Pag. 83. other Scriptures being spoken of vaine worshippers in the true Church have ben and may be alledged much more against all vaine worship in the false Church whether it be yours or the Papists or anie other whatsoever And saie your self if the Martyrs have not both ben perswaded that the Iewes were a true Church and yet alledged this Scripture against the Papists as against a false Church Are these contrary I pray you that they need be reconciled Then do you reconcile them for the Martyrs For sure I see no need of it Chap. 9. The third Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF the whose doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by Law in England be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that together with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Governement of the Church devised by man even the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holie ordinance and appointment of God himself to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie Worship and Governement aforesaid never was so but is mans device in religion even Antichrists that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ The Assumption is proved Gal 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that held not onelie such trueths of the Gospell as are in that book of Articles but more then those Yet if they should withall submit to Circumcision he saith they vvere abolished from Christ Christ vvould profit them nothing H. Iacob his first Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuely to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our Englâ—sh holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But a Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We ansvver We denie the Assumption Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If you obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ. That is in deed some amongst them as held Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutlie to salvation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3 4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Iustification vvas by the morall vvorkes of the lavv Novv the Churches of Galatia generallie vvere not such but held the saving faith sound doubtles though manie amngest them vvere tainred vvith that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that vvere crept in and too vvell interteined among them Hovvbeit vvith the Church Communion vvas kept and therefore so vvith vs you ought to deale If you say vve are vvorse Christians then those grosest Galatians It is vtterly false prove it if you can and it must dravve in Maister Cranmer c. vvith vs also If you say there are many amongst vs as bad or vvorse then those vvorst Galatians you may say it but prove it you cannot Also if it vvere so yet this disgraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath ben sayd of the Galatians Fr. Io. his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Reason YOur first answer is that you deny the Assumption Which in plaine termes is asmuch as if you had given the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.3.4 As in the proof of the Assumption was shewed before But for the more evidence of the truth I will set this downe in a Syllogisme thus If a Galatian submitting to Circumcision though he hold all the truths of the Gospell professed in EnglaÌ„d withall yet be notwithstanding abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter And yet the former you deny that is the Assumption Therefore you give the lie to the holy Ghost who affirmeth it Next you aunswer that the Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal 1.2 Therefore say you this Reason is nought But you may not thus runne away with the matter and deceive your self and your simple favourers The question is not Whether any Galatians vvere true Christians or any of their Assemblies true Churches For who ever doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truths of the Gospell novv professed in England and vvithall submitting to CircuÌ„cisioÌ„ vvere in that estate a true Christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those AsseÌ„blies then in that case were by Gods word to be deemed the true Churches of Christ The Apostle testifieth and saith No You say Yea. Now whether of you two it is meet wee beleeve let all men iudge But what is it then will you say that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true Churches Gal. 1.2 You shew the reason your selfe the light of the truth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed and of such onelie is the supposition made in the case aforesaid But the Churches of Galatia generally were not such but held the saving faith sound This also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ And therefore although there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes among them which is the †1 Cor. 11.19 Act. 20.30 lot and triall of the Church of God in all ages yet was there not cause to break Communion with those Assemblies but
Devills Doth your Church hold them as things indifferent Or will not this prove a blasphemous opinion even in your owne judgement 4. Mynd withall how the Dispensations given by your Prelates for eating of flesh in tymes forbidden runne stil among you as they did and do among the Papists with this clause fana conscientia that is with a safe conscience and your Excommunications with this clause Ad salutem anioâ—e that is for the salvation of the soule Doth not this shew that your Churches hold not these things as you pretend but agree with the Papists therein Or hold you matters of conscience and salvation for things indifferent 5. Likewise for your Ministery and book of common prayer c. hold you them as matters indifferent or as necessarie for the service of God and salvation of your soules 6. And what say you to the blasphemy magik errors lyes in the Apocrypha books retained among you for the service of God Count you them also for indifferent things 6. Finally towching the Popish opinion of works whereof you speak know you not how they hold that their works merit not for the work sake but for Christs being dyed with his blood Yet notwithstanding this colour the point being well considered it doth highly dishonour Christ and derogate from his office of sole Mediation In like maner the Hierarchy c. that is the governement worship confusion and Ministery of Antichrist retained among you whatsoever you pretend for them yet being duly weighed do as towching your Church constitutioÌ„ abolish the governement and MediatioÌ„ of Christ except you could prove him to be Mediatour of another Testament then his owne Behold what your Indifferent opinioÌ„ will prove when it comes to be throughly scanned As you like it you may hold it still To end this point let the Reader note and not forget it how your self do here in playne termes confesse that your Hierarchy that is your Churches governement Ministery c. was never but nought This suites yll with the title of your book and gives small encouragement for any to serve God by such Ministery worship c. For Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Pag. 40.41 I have cleared them before froÌ„ your hasty censure Now onely let the Reader observed how this is alway the foot of your song Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. As if their errors were better warrant for you then Gods word for vs. CHAP. 10. The fourth Reason against M. Iacobs AssumptioÌ„ aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THe doctrines of faith conteined in that Book alledged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still execute or joyne vnto the Ministery of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or joine vnto the Ministery and worship of the man of sinne the covert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. ReasoÌ„ is Mahomets Ministery and Antichrists Ministery are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot save a man that ioineth also to Mahomets Ministery Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot save a man that ioineth also to Antichrists Ministery which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equivocation as we call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie have a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichrists assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches Then I graunt your whole Argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolâ—shing vs from Christ. true But that wee doe so in England which comes in the CoÌ„clusioÌ„ Or that any ChristiaÌ„ amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterly deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2 Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie and some outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutly deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioined with the good doctrines of that our Book doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie as before was shewed in the Second Exception Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 4. Reason Here Mr Iacob the light of the trueth doeth so dazell your eyes as you freely confesse you cannot deny any whit of the Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is you say an Equivocation in it and therefore you will distinguish I answer There is no equivocation at all in the words they are all plaine to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore your distinction here is idle and frivolous Yet let vs see between what things you do distinguish It is between the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and between the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction towching the matter in hand For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed before God aswell as the rest of their woship and service Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the Argument here is not of whatsoever thing vsed among the Turkes and Papists but of the Ministerie and worship which they have devised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministery reteined among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall governement Canons proceedings c. All which in the Church of England are taken out of * Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3.4.7.8.9.10.11.12 that golden cup of abominations wherewith Antichrist that man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken As may appeare by comparing their Pontificals Canons and constitutions togeather If you will needes be otherwise minded then prove the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Christ And marke here that you graunt the doctrine of faith conteined in your booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian who holding them doth withall receive and ioyne vnto the publike worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This you say you graunt as most true WherevpoÌ„ it followeth even by your owne confession 1. That such things may be ioined with the doctrines of faith receiued among you as in such estate you cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truths which you
those things yet you are notwithstanding to be judged in this constitution true Christians and true Churches which hitherto you have not done neither ever will If you meane it not of them then you keep not the point and besides you must prove the contrary to that I have said Which you never go about For the note I gave you graunt it is most true that such things may be joined with the doctrines of faith received among you as will vtterly destroy it or to keep the words of my aunswer which you love not to do that in such estate you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches neither the truths which you hold be avayleable vnto you Thus all the defence you bring of your Church proves to be quite nothing in the end For hereby is evident as heretofore I noted that your Proposition is not generall that both it and the Assumption are lame and vnperfect and so your whole Argument faulty and nothing els but meer Sophistry Your vnchristiā and false charge rests vpō your owne head as is proved already in the handling of your Proposition For which see Pag. 11. 12. 13. Lastly your reference is nothing els but a refuge whither still you fly to hide your self when you can no longer stand in defence of your Church What you aunswered to the first Reason is there taken away Now to shut vp all you sing againe the Cuckoes note your old vnder song Mr Crāmer Ridley c. Towching whom I have shewed before Pag 40. 41. how they may he counted true Christiās and yet your estate be Antichristiā nevertheles Chap. 11. The Fift Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS the golden vessels taken out of the Lords house had and vsed in Babylō of the Caldeās did not therefore make the Babyloniās true Iewes touching the faith Nor their bankets wherein they vsed them to be any of the Lords Feasts spoken of Leu. 23. but they still remained Babylonish people and banquets notwithstanding So the truths of the Gospel vessels as it were of the Lords house holden and received in the spiritual Babilō whereof that other was a type do not make the people so stāding to be true Christiās Neither their Ministery and cōstitution to be Christs But they still remaine the people Ministery cōstitution of Babylon notwithstāding See the proofs hereof in Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 compared with Prov. 9.17.18 Rev. 17.4.5 18.4 with 14.8.9.10.11 H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 5. Reason YOur Reason is this The materiall vessells of Ierurusalem were of the like power and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babilonians As the holy christian doctrines in that Booke are to sanctifie vs that holde togeather with them some Popish ceremonies and orders as indifferent things But those vessels were not sufficient to sanctifie those Babilonians Ergo Neither these truths of the Gospell can sanctifie vs. An absurd comparison The Proposition is most false and so the scriptures quoted Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 compared vvith Pro. 9.17.18 Revel 17.4.5 18.4 vvith 14.8.9.10.11 are as idely and vainely applyed See the Ansvver to the allegations in the First Reason before FR. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 5. Reason MY Reason is a comparison between the Caldean and the Romish Babylon also between the vessels of the Lords house and the true doctrines of the Gospell Now this you say first is an absurd comparison So belike if your grave judgement might goe for good payment the manifold allusions which in describing the spirituall Babylon the Spirit of God ♣ maketh to the materiall Babylon of the Caldeans are to bee accompted absurd allusions and comparisons As also the often alluding and likening togeather the * holy things of the Law with the holy thinges of the Gospell and the †transgressions then with the transgressions now which are so often vsed in the Scripture are in your account absurd allusions similitudes ♣ Rev. 17. 18. 19. chap. compared with Ierem. 50. 51. chap. Esay 13. 14. 21. 47. chap. * Esay 66.20.21 Zach. 14.20.21 1 Cor. 5.7.8 10.2.3.4 Col. 2.11.12 Heb. 13.15.16 1 Pet. 3.20.21 Rev. 15.3 21.10 c. †2 Tim. 3.8.9 1 Cor. 10.6 c. Heb. 12.16.17 Iude vers 11. Rev. 2.14.20 20.8.9 Secondly you say the Proposition is most false But in deed it is most true and most plainely taught in the fift of Daniel Vers 1.2.3.4 Lev. 23. chap. As was alleadged before when I first propounded the reason wherevnto yet you have given no aunswer So soundly you defend your cause Thirdly you say These scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 vvith Pro. 9.17.18 Revel 17.4.5 18.4 14.8.9.10.11 are idely and vainely applyed But how do you shew this Verie profoundly sure You bid vs see the aunsvver to the allegations in the First Reason And this is all the proof you bring Well wee have seen your aunswer to the allegations there and find First that the Scriptures here alleadged are not so much as once mentioned there Secondly that your aunswer to those which are there is most frivoulous and of no weight but against your self as there is declared Pag. 67. 68. Lastlie in your propounding the Reason here otherwise then I did myself which is a thing very common but nothing commendable in you it seemeth that being not able to aunswer any part thereof as I had set it downe yet you thought to helpe your self by this exception that the materiall vessells of Ierusalem vvere not of like povver and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babylonians as the true doctrines received among the Spirituall Babylonians are to sanctifie them But you shall finde if you will consider and compare togeather the Scriptures here alledged that the golden vessels being holy to the Lord and taken out of his Temple did asmuch sanctifie the Caldean Babylonians and their Feastes As the holy doctrines vessels as it were of the Lords Temple had amōg the spirituall Babylonians doe sanctifie them and their constitution That is neither of their estates and Assemblies are sanctified thereby at all For saith not the Lord That the setting of mens postes and thresholds how much more of Babylons enormities by his Postes and Thresholds that is by his truths and ordinances is so far from sanctifying as it defyleth his holy name yea is abomination in his sight and setteth a vvall between him and them that doe it Ezech. 43.8 And saith not the Scripture againe that the true doctrines in the false Church are among them as stollen vvaters and hid bread which though they be svveet and pleasant yet there also the mouth is filled with gravell and the guestes of those feasts and Assemblies are so far from being sanctifyed by those truthes in that estate as they are before God even dead men and in the deapth of hell Prov. 9.17.18 20.17 To conclude this poinct hath not an Angell from heaven proclaimed with a loude voice that
‡ Rev. 18.1.2.3.4.11 c 17.1.2.3.4.5 14.8.9.10.11 the spirituall Babylon notwithstanding any truthes she holdeth yet is so vnsanctifyed and abominable as shee is become a cage of all vncleane and hatefull birdes and that all her children Marchants that will not depart out of her shall receive of her plagues and damnation and drink of the vvine of Gods vvrath and be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angells and before the Lamb for evermore Loe here your fearfull estate which you notwithstanding will needes accompt holy and acceptable before God H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 5. Reason IN this your defence of your Fifth Reason you mislike that I call it an absurd comparison Where you affirme that the golden vessels of the Iewes were as available to sanctify the Babilonians as the truthes of the Gospell which wee hold are to sanctify vs. In deed your ovvne vvordes be holden and received in the spirituall Babylon By which termes you meane vs of England I trow But marke sir Is not this grosse Sophistry againe Is not this childish vanity open beggerie and craving of that which is the whole question that is That our Churches are spirituall Babylon and as deepely infected in Babylonish impietie as those old Caldeans If they were so infected I graunt in deed your Reason would follow But seeing it is the question and seing we professe our selves true Christians by those truths of the Gospell which wee hold and as by Gods grace wee are in deed Say I not well that this is an absurd Comparison Yes Maister Iohnson it is a most †To match those outvard vessells of no sanctity of themselves with our inward doctrines of salvation impious absurd and senceles comparison and void of common Reason And it inwrappeth wrappeth Maister Cranmer Maister Ridley c. within the same iniurious you irreligious consequence likewise All that you have of allusions and alluding betweene the Typicall and spirituall Babylon are meere delusions and vaine cavils Prove vs first to be spirituall Babylon Or els you fight with your shadow So that still I say those Scriptures quoted of Dan. 5. c. As also all the rest here packed togeather they are miserably and desperately abused according as I rightly referred you to my censure to your First Reason which for all your wordes you have not refuted The very same I say of your other two scriptures towards the end Prov 9.17 c. Rev. 18.1 c. As for Ezech. 43.8 I answered it before †Pag. 71. in your First Reason Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 5. Reason HAve you said any thing here first Mr Iacob but denyed the Conclusion If you have shew it If not confesse your owne childish vanity and open beggery c. For which the name of Sophistry is to good though otherwise it be bad ynough and the cognisance of all your Replies Now that this you say is but the denyal of the Conclusion thus I shew That which I conclude towching your Churches is this that they are not constitute according to the ordināce of Christ but according to the apostasy of Antichrist that is that your Churches in their estate are spirituall Babylon This I say is that which I have concluded heretofore and still do throughout my Reasons Exceptions Aunswers and now of purpose have I set it downe at the beginning of this treatise Pag. 3. Your denying of this then what is it els but the denyall of the Conclusion But this now being proved you are driven nill ye will ye plainely to graunt that in deed my Reason will follow Well Mr Iacob though it were long first yet thus you yeeld now at length Better late thrive then never Abide but by this and I trow you will not now any longer stand member or Minister of your Assemblies in that estate neyther condemne vs any more for separating from them Next howsoever it were for the question between vs yet the Proposition of the Comparison cannot but be true which in your first Reply you said was most false and now you would passe by because you can say nothing against it Yet mynd Mr Iacob that in denying it you did there agayne give the lye to the holy Ghost whose doctrine it is in these Scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 Levit. 23. chap. Prov. 9.17.18 By all this then you may see it is your owne dealing that is most impious absurd sencelesse c. thus to strive as you have done against so cleare a truth and everie where in your Replyes to fight against God and his word Which even here againe you cease not to do whiles you call such allusions and comparisons as the Scripture vseth between the typicall and spirituall Babylon meer delusions and vayne cavils How I matched together on the one hand the vessells of the Lords Temple and the truthes of the Gospell on the other The Caldean and spirituall Babylon may be seen in my former aunswer Which may suffice for any thing you say here both your marginall note and all the rest I could tell you further if it needed that Babel in English is confusion And that such is the estate of your Church even a confusion of all sorts of people good and bad Besides that your tounges are divided and your language confounded as it was in * Gen. 11.9 Babel of old whiles the Prelates the Reformists your self and the like as Neuters between both speak some one thing some another towching your Hierarchy worship Canons c. some †The Prel Formal that they are of God and to be kept and obeyed for conscience sake some ‡ The Sekers of Reform that they are of Antichrist and to be removed and witnessed against vnto death though every haire of the head were a life some ♣ Mr Iacob the like that they are neyther of God neyther of Antichrist simply fundamentally indifferently c. And thus as men confounded in your selves by the just judgement of God your toungues are divided you know not your selves what to make and account of these things or one of another I could also put you in mind that as the Caldean Babylon was so the spirituall Babylon is notorious for false worship towards God and for persecution of his people keping them in thraldome and captivity See M. Iacob◠Repl. before And that now the estate of your Church is such viz worshipping God after a false maner never prescribed by himself kept in subiection to your Antichristian Prelats and persecuting the people of God by prisonment exile death c. it is so evident as when you are called vpon to shew warrāt for these among you your vsuall aunswer is no other but after this sort * Pag. 37. Let the State which mainteyneth these things aunswer for them †Pag. 70. For my part I never thought other but our Church corruptions are against the Secōd
commaundement “ Pag. 72. It is no part of my mynd to iustify them ♣ Pag. 84. Our doctrine appointeth Gods worship by Mens precepts after a sort ‡ Pag. 92. Our Hierarchy was never but nought * Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason following I never intended much lesse professed to iustify our whole Ministery estate and maner of worship †His Replies to the 7. 8 Reasons We depart from and deny the faith in our Ministery c. but not totally simply fundamentally ‡ His 2. Reply to the 9. Reason I list not to medle with them I have no leasure c. Now then Mr Iacob say I not well that your Churches in this estate are spirituall Babylon And have I not made a fit comparison between it and the Caldean Babylon of old between the doctrines of truth in the one and the holy vessels in the other If the comparison be good strive no more against it but yeeld to the truth as you haue begun If it be evill convince it by Scripture whence I borrowed it as the testimonyes I alledged declare Vntill you do this which will not be in hast know that the Scriptures here cited are fitly applyed to the purpose in hand If you see it not feare least you be miserably and desperatly blynded And take heed you do not still runne on wilfully to destruction Remember what is written in Esa 6.9.10 Mat. 13.14.15 Ioh. 12 37-43 Act. 28.25.26.27 Towching the place of Ezech. 43.8 I have aunswered in the handling of the first Reason Pag. 80. For Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley c. I have also answered Pag. 40. 41. You that do so often tell vs of them if you had but so much as how of any Scripture for your estate is it like you would be silent therein Nay sure you would not spare much more to tell vs of that agayne and agayne And so let the Reader mynd it Chap. 12. The Sixt Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THe Samaritans those counterfeit children of Abraham Isaak and Iacob did publiquely professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the truth of which doctrine how powerfull it was to salvation the Scriptures testify Yet doeth our Saviour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt one framed after the inuentions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore saith Christ vnto them Ye worship that which ye know not we worship that which we knowe for salvation is of the Iewes By which appeareth 1. That although the Samaritans professed this saving truth yet being false worshippers of God they could not truly challendge vnto themselves in such estate the benefite thereof 2. That the Iewes and they which held their faith being then the true Church and people of God to whom his Oracles were committed and to whom his Couenantes and service did appertayne Christ therefore accounted the Iewes and not the Samaritans to be the true worshippers of God and heires of salvation Iohn 4.22 compared with ver 20.25.29 and with 2 King 17.24 c. In like maner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies staÌ„ding subiect to a counterfeit Ministery and worship being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are available to salvation yet can not in such estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto themselves the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto any false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto any such but onely to his true Church and worshippers his service and holy things of his word prayer Sacraments Censures c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your Sixt Reason is The Samaritans beleeving that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neere salvation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeved according to that Book of Articles I deny the proposition The Samaritans might know by hearsay and beleeve the Messias should come and Balaam did know it Nomb. 24.17 and the Divels doe now knovv and beleeve Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeved in him It follovveth not therefore that they vvere as nigh salvation as vve of England In a vvord there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols vvith the God of Israel 2 Kiâ—g 17. Which vvholy destroyed the truth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Pag. 62 Wherefore here take the Second Ansvver to the First Reason before But I vvill help you vvith an Obiection surely one fitter then all these The Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell served not Pagan Idols Obiection but the true God after their ovvn deuises vvhich yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Hovvbeit they were false worshippers onely for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only fot our false Ministerie and outvvard vvorship To this vvee aunsvvere also vvhat additions of deuices Ansvver and hovv grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs But yet this appeareth cleerly that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem vvas the only place and ‡ My meaning vvas the Levites vvere not of Aarons line but the Prists onely Aarons line the only Priests Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true vvorshippers nor vvithin the couenant nor neere to saluation vvhen they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly vvhom the Lord had so expresly chosen Novv our assemblies throughout EnglaÌ„d haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo vvee may be in the couenant vvhich they vvere not for all our corruptions Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis Reason as the rest you neyther propound as we did nor make aunswer directly and soundly to any part thereof Now that the nakednes of your answer and light of the truth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more plainlie in a Syllogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Covenantes holy things and service of God do not appertayne they can not in such constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and asseÌ„blies of England as vnto them in that estate the Covenauntes holy things and service of God do not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that coÌ„stitution by the word of
God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides The Proposition none will deny The Assumption is proved thus The people and Assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the covenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteine But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assēblies of England as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word Therefore the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblies of England is such as vnto them in that estate the Couenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteyne The Proposition was proved by the example of the Samaritans and by Christs speach concerning them in such estate Ioh. 4. 2 King 17. wherevnto you answer nothing to any purpose save that what you say is against your self For where you graunt That the Samaritans and Balaam knew and beleeved the Messias should come yea and that the Divels know beleev there is a God and that Iesus is the Christ the holy one of God Who seeth not that most excellent truthes may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe be not therfore in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom the Couenauntes holy things and service of God do apperteine And where next you say The Samaritans beleeved not in the Messias it will be heard for you to proove it seeing you take beleefe in Christ so as it is had in the spirituall Babylon and her daguhters and seeing also the Samaritans professed and beleeved not onely that the Messias should come but even he which is called Christ and that when he came he would declare vnto them all things In so much as when Iesus was come and had spoken but to a woman of Samaria the Scripture witnesseth that many of the Samaritans of that city beleved in him for the saying of the woman which testifyed he hath tolde me all things that ever I did Iohn 4.25.26.29.30.39 Thirdly where you say The Samaritans ioined Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell whih wholy destroyed the trueth in them By this againe it is evident even in your owne confession both that such things may be ioyned with the doctrines of trueth as in that estate they which professe those truthes can not be iudged true Christians or true Churches to whom the promises and holy things of God do belong and that therefore also the Proposition of your principall and maine Argument is not generall but of necessitie admitteth limitation So then your maine defence falleth to the ground Of which see further Pag. 5. c. Moreover in that you say The Samaritans ioyned Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell 2 King 17. If you meane that they worshipped the Idols themselves ◠King 17. sacrifycing to them and accompting them to be Gods as well as the God of Israell and so brake the First cōmaundemēt as before you affirmed in your answer to the First Reason then I take it that here againe you are deceived The scripture sayeth they worshipped and sacrifized to the Lord God of Israell So as their sinne was against the Second commaundement in that worshipping the true God See before Pag. 67. 68. they did it in and by those Images as also by other devices of their owne and traditions of their predecessours That this was their case besides that it appeareth in the chapter alledged it is most plainly testifyed 1. First by themselves in the book of Ezra where they speak to the Iewes of the captivitie that builded the Temple saying * Ezra 4.1.2 We will build with you for vve seek the Lord your God as ye do and we have sacrifyced vnto him since the tyme of Esar Haddon King of Ashur which brought vs vp hither 2. Secondly by the speach that was between Christ and the woman of Samaria Ioh. 4. where it is manifest the “ Ioh. 4.20.21 22.23.24.25.29.30 contention between the Iewes and the Samaritans was not whether onely the true God vvas to be vvorshipped but both of them agreeing in that vvhether the solemne place of his vvorship vvas in Ierusalem or in the mount of Samaria c. 3. Lastly by your owne confession when ‡ Pag. 105. you say the Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethel served not Pagan Idols but the true God after their ovvne devices For the Samaritans as the †2 King 17.28.32.33 Scripture testifyeth worshipped the same God and after the same maner that the Nations did vvhich vvere caried from thence Now the nations thence carried were the tenne Tribes of Israel that fel away from Iudah to Ieroboam Who likewise ♣ 1 King 12.27.28.29.30.31 with 2 King 17.32.33.40.41 feared the Lord and served their Images that is God in and by their Images As now also the Samaritans did that were come in their stead Hitherto of your answer which seemeth to concerne the Proposition of the latter Syllogisme The Assumption was shewed by this that your Assemblies being commingled togeather of all sortes of people you have also for your vvorship of God a counterfeit Ministery and service devised by man This you do rightly vnderstand as we meane it of your Hierarchie and other abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. Which deceiptfully here againe you would smother vp vnder the name of ceremonies Touching which sleight of yours sufficient is said before in the handling of the First Reason But what say you now cōcerning the Assumption or proof of it Do you deny it Not so What then do you say for your counterfet Hierarchie vvorship c. Not a word but this That your assemblies in England have not their consciences conuicted in these as the people vnder Ieroboam could not but have their consciences convicted then touching their vvorship and Priesthood But first if this were so is it any just defence of your Ministery vvorship or estate that yet you see them not to to be vnlawfull as it could not be but they vnder Ieroboam saw theirs to be If this were a sufficient reason might not the grossest Papists plead likewise for their Ministery worship and estate as also the Vsurers extortioners and persecutors for themselves and their wickednes And by this reason God should not have sent Lyons among the Samaritans 2 King 17.26 because yet they knew not the maner of worshipping the God of Israell neither had their consciences convicted therein But Christ hath taught vs otherwise †Luk 12.48 that even that servant vvhich knovveth not his Maisters vvill and yet committeth things vvorthy of stripes shal be beaten though vvith fevver stripes then he that knovveth and doeth it not And of those Israelites aforesaid the Lord himself testifieth “ Hos 4.6 that they vvere destroyed for lack of
knovvledge So then your peoples ignoraunce which you plead can be no sufficient defence for your estate Or if it could yet it seemeth they of Israell might aswell have alleadged it for thēselves seeing the Lord witnesseth of them * Hos 4.1 that there vvas no knovvledge of God in the land And thus the Obiection also here brought by your self remayneth still vnaunswered Where you say Aarons Line vvere the onely Priests and Levites you are also mistaken therein In deed Aarons Line onely was the Priests but the Levites were generally of the Tribe of Levi though not of Aarons line But to let this passe We would know a sufficient reason why the true vvorship and Ministery appointed by Christ in his Testament should not be aswell knowne vnto you in these dayes as in the defection of Israell You say They could not but knovve that Ierusalem vvas the onely place Aarons line the onely Priests Well then Have not you the Scriptures asmuch as they had Or hath not ♣ Heb. 3.1.2.3.4.5.6 Christ the sonne ben as faithfull in the house of God and as plainly set downe his will for his true worship and Ministery in the tyme of the Gospell as Moses the servant was and did for the tyme of the Law Yea and have not * VVitnes the publik Treatises Sermons Admonitions Cōplaintes Supplicatiōs Demonstrations to the Parliament beside the bandes sufferings of many in this behalfe these by the word ben made manifest to the consciences of men in these daies and even to the high Court of Parliament representing the whole body of the land as the other were to the Israelites in the tyme of their defection Finally doeth not this Land stand in as open rebellion against and forsaking of the true Ministery worship and order appoincted by Christ to his Church now as they did then if not more open and greevous not onely for the causes aforsaid but because you have also †VVitnes the Pontifical Porruis Canons and Constitutiō of the popish your assemblies compared together received and still reteine a false Ministery worship and confusion of the Man of sinne that sonne of perdition and capitall enemie of the Lord Iesus Christ And yet moreover least you should be behind them in any thing and not every way farre exceed them do also ‡ VVitnes your prisons gallovves Statutes c persecute vnto bandes exile and death such as beare witnes to the truth of Christ against your abominations By this then is manifest that you have neither iustifyed your estate in respect of the Apostate Israelites nor answered the Obiection “ pag. 105. here framed by your self against your present constitution So that it also still remaineth vpon you as a testimony against your present estate We indeed neyther did nor needed propound it as a severall Reason amōg those we set downe because it is of like nature with those which we have already mentioned in the Second and Sixt Reasons here before alleadged Pag. 82. and 104. H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 6. Reason IN this your defence of your 6. Reason you say That the Proposition of your last syllogisme They that worship God after a false manner Pag. 106. are no true Christians is proved by the example of the Samaritans and that I answer nothing against it First I say there you sophisticate againe And it seemeth you can doe nothing else in argumentation For your Proposition is aequivocall and ambiguous If you meane they that vvorship God after a false manner that is totally or els Fundamentally Then I cleerely graunt it and that the Samaritans doe prove the same seeing they erred Fundamentally But your Assumption touching vs is then vtterly false You bring not a syllable or one letter to prove either of these tvvo against vs in all your writing neyther can you but bare begging of the controversie which is infinite ofte If you meane in your Proposition They that serve God after a false maner that is in part not wholly nor Fundamentally As namely in the Hierarchy and externall ceremonies as Cranmer c. Then I say and a vouch confidently in the presence of God that such may be true Christians though vnperfect in many things Yea infinite such have ben are and may be hereafter true Christians The contrarie whereof is no lesse then horrible blasphemy against God and his Saincts wherefore your Proposition is shewed to be againe sophisticall as also those were in your Third Exception First and Second Reasons Secondly where you say the Samaritans prove it I say nothing against it Marke you First I said the Samaritans might knowe by hearsay and yet not faithfully beleeve in the Messias You cannot be ignorant that there is a great difference between an obscure rumor which some of them might receiue from their neighbour Iewes and yet not haue it constantly beleeued and held publiquely among them as their cōmon faith If thus the Samaritans beleeued the comming of Messiah they are in no cōparison with vs we holde our most holy faith and doctrine by the worde professedly as the publique ordinance of our Churchs sheweth But furder let it be howsoeuer they held the comming of Messiah yet I answered The Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols wih the God of Israell which wholly destroyed the trueth in them And this is the very truth indeed howsoeuer you vvill not yeld it For you say that they broke not the First commaundement they worshipped not the Idols themselues nor sacrifised to them c. This is proued apparantly false in the Text. 2 kings 17.29 30 31. Every nation made their Gods and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made euery nation in their Citties wherein they dwelt 2 King 17. For the men of Babel made Succoth-Benoth and the men of Cuth made Nergall and the men of Hamath made Ashima And the Auims made Nibhaz and Tartak and the Sepharuims burnt their children in the fyer to Adramdech Anammelech the Gods of Sepharuim Therefore they vvorshipped the Idols of the Heathen and sacrifized to them and accompted them to be Gods asvvell as the God of Israell And so broke the First commandement and therefore they touch not vs in this question As the like I †pag. 71. haue truely and vvell declared before against your First Reason Your proofes ‡ pag. 107. that the Samaritans brake not the First commandement are nothing 1 That of Ezra 4.1.2 that they sought the Lord as the Iewes did c. vvas their counterfeit hypocrisy and false brag yea their divelish cōspiracy against the worship of the Ievves God Do you beleve their vvordes here in this place that they are true indeed I graunt as I noted before out of 2 Kings 17. they had a mixed vvorship something of the Ievves God but very much and as by the Chapter seemeth most of the Heathens Gods Pag. 107. 2.
also the obstinate vvere most fearfully smitten vvith Gods miraculous hand from heauen So that for any to offend in these poinctes as Ieroboam did it could not possible bee but in presumptuous rebellion vvith a high hand against God and vvith a conuicted seared conscience Which I say cannot vvith any shevv of sence be said of many Thousand Christians in this case touching the Praelacie c. Further you vrge these Reasons That this cause hath bene made manifest to the consciences of men pag. 108. yea to the Parliament of late times You say vvell to the consciences of men but not to the consciences of all men or the most men throughout the land Yea or the most of them that knovv and feare God according to the religion novv mainteyned This is the very question If you meane so that all mens coÌ„sciences are coÌ„uicted in this matter all men surely vvill either pitty your simplicitie or laugh at your folly I pray you Maister Iohnson consider your selfe you vvere a true Christian longe before you fell into this separation Yea moreouer you vvere learned yea you knevv and acknovvledged these very corruptions a great while and yet condemned vs not Nay you condemned the separation earnestly I pray you is it not possible that numbers who see not so farre as you did then should still coÌ„demne your separation yet be true ChristiaÌ„s as you acknowledg that your self then vvas meipso teste That which you adde * pag. ibid. of persecuting vnto bandes exile and death to proue our vtter abolishing from Christ generally It is a toy First if you were meerely innocent yet this could not make vs worse then the Iewes in Chrstes time who for all that they persecuted yet were they not wholly falne from God Secondly you suffer indeed more then you need H. â—a if that you would but acknowledge the grace of God with vs so farre as it is It is therefore not Christes Crosse in that regard but your owne that you beare Finally let it bee noted if †M. Iohnson his contrariety proved bâ—tvvene his 2. Reason his 6. reason Fr. Io. Not proved but pretended See my Answer here following here in this your 6. Reason you bee not directly contraty to your self as I hue obserued in your 2. Reason Pag. 85. For you say here Pag. 104. That not the Samaritans but the Iewes were then by Christ counted the true worshippers of God heires of saluation Ioh. 4.22 But in your Second Reason Pag. 82. you say They that teach for doctrine mens precepts as ‡ Mat. 15.9 there Christ saith the Iewes then did those in particuler are no true Christians nor their assemblies true Churches Therfore you inferre or else you pretend it that those particuler Ievves were not then true vvorshippers nor their Assembles true Churches vvhich is a flat contradiction Or else what is But if you meane not this of the Ievves then you abuse the scripture and vs turning it cleane from them vvhom in your Reason you speake of and vvhom Christ therein expresly meaneth Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to M. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason MAny such things Mr Iacob I have often heard Yet God forbid that I should justify you or your estate He that justifyeth the vvicked and he that coÌ„demneth the just even they both are abomination to the Lord. Therefore dare I not eyther justify your Churches wicked estate and persecution Prov. 17.15 or condemne the righteous servants of God which witnes the truth against you But you Mr Iacob have done both in this Reply of yours the abomination whereof will further appeare in the discussing of the particulers hereafter Words in deed you have ynough as thinking belike that at least you have some show on your side but they are all to no purpose save against your selves I will now examine them from point to point First for the Reason it self the Proposition of the first Syllogisme being so cleare as you can with no colour deny it you come therefore to the latter Where you pretend first to set it downe and then to aunswer it Yet in deed you do neither Thus first you set it downe They that vvorship God after a false manner are no true Christians But put on your spectacles or if you please your eye of glasse and trye agayne if you can read any better He that hath but the halfe eye you speake of sometymes may see I propounded it thus Pag. 106. The people and Assemblies whose ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the couenants holy things and seruice of God do not appertaine This you see is the latter Proposition Why then did you not thus propound it Why do you still transforme my words and Arguments into others of your owne Is it because you can find no aunswer to them as I have propounded them Or because men should see in deed that to be in your self which you do vainly obiect vnto me viz That you do sophisticate and can do nothing els in argumentation Towching your answer to the Proposition If you had kept my words what needed I pray you this vaine distinction of yours Speciallie where there is no ambiguitie at all Was there ever any professing to worship the true God in Christ that did worship him after a false maner totally that is in all the particulars of their worship Look to the Ethiopian Churches to the Papists to anie other false worshippers of God professing Christ and see if their case be such Do they not hold and preach much truth Do they not baytize in the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost c. If you say where the constitution of a Church establisheth a false worship of God never prescribed by himself there though they seem to have some good things yet by reasoÌ„ of such constitution and practise their whole worship is false before God totally then say I also your case is such and therefore so of vs to be esteemed Thus if there be any thing in your pretended distinction it is against your self But you have another clause in it of worshipping God after a false maner fundamentally This you say you do not in the Hierarchy and externall ceremonies and therefore you auouch confidently that such may be true Christians and that the contrarie hereof is no lesse then blasphemy c. 1. First Mr Iacob this is but your bare affirmation without any warraÌ„t produced from the Scripture 2. Secondly you say such may be true Christians whereas for the point in hand you should have said all such as towching the Church-constitution wherein they stand are true Christians If you thus affirme prove it by the word of God If you cannot it will appeare to be blasphemy rather in your self so to affirme then in others
against Iesus Christ 10. They as they pretended for the liberty and service of the Israel of God vers 3.13 You as your selves do know and acknowledge many of you for * Rev. 13.16 17.4.5.6 18.3 the slaverie and abominations of the Whore of Babylon Of which see before Pag. 63. c. Now your case being thus Mr Iacob it is high tyme for you to lay it to heart and to look vnto it betymes Or if you will not yet let such among you as feare God and tremble at his word be warned by this example of Corah and his partakers that they do with speed depart from the tents of such vngodlie men and that they towch nothing of yours least they perish in all your sinnes Numb 16.26 with Rev. 18.4 Neither need you or anie among you flatter your selves in this as it seemeth you do that the punishements of sinne are not now vnder the Gospell so outward and miraculous with Gods hand from heaven as they were then vnder the Law For first this argueth the more clearenes of the word now revealed as lesse needing such outward work to be joined withall for help thereof Which is contrary to that you spake before of greater darkenes in the word for our vnderstanding and vse now then for theirs then Secondly the judgements that then came vpon them were for ensamples and are written to admonish vs vpon whom the ends of the world are come 1 Cor. 10.11 with Num. 26.10 Thirdly even since the tyme of the Gospell there are some examples in the Scripture though not so manie as in the tyme of the Law of Gods miraculous hand smiting both †Act. 5 1-11 hypocrites in the Church and ‡ Act. 13 6-11 oppugners of the truth without Which should teach all men to take heed to their wayes aswell as if there were a thousand mo besides Not to speak here of such examples as the Elclesiasticall storyes in all ages older ond later do abundantlie afford Fourthlie the lesse outward punishment is now in this life brought vpon Idolaters persecutors despisers of the truth c. the greater is reserved for them in the world to come Els the Papists and the most prophane might pretend this for themselves aswell as you And yet too In the yeare 1593. c. take heed you forget not * the great plague and famine by which God hath pleaded against England alreadie Neither do you know what other judgement he hath in store for you even in this life if you still persist in your Antichristian estate and will not be reclaymed Finally for full aunswer of all you say here read and mynd well that which is written Eccles 8.11.12.13 9.1.2.3 12.13.14 Towching the estate of Ieroboam and the Israelites compared with yours I have spoken ynough before Pag. 110. c. I wish your case were not in divers respects worse then theirs Where I said this cause hath ben made manifest to the consciences of men to the high Court of Parliament c. you graunt in this I say well If so then your self have done ill in resisting it so long But now it is well you yeeld it at length Yet behold as if you feared to yeeld to much to the truth at once you do by and by except that it is not made manifest to the consciences of all men or the most no not of them that know and feare God among you c. 1. If it be not where is the fault In the maner of conviction or in your selves That it is not in the conviction your self testify seing you graunt it is such as thereby to some mens consciēces the cause is made manifest Why then should it not be likewise to the rest if your owne blyndnes or wilfulnes through the just judgement of God were not the hindrance When Paul at Rome testifyed to the Iewes the kingdome of God c. some were perswaded with the things that were spoken but some beleeved not Act. 28.24.25 c. Had it now ben any exception of waight to have said as you do here it is made manifest to the consciences of some but not of all c. Nay the Apostle so rests telling such as were not perswaded that this came to passe through their owne wilfull blindnes and hardnes of heart by the just hand of God vpon them And to this end he alledged against them that saying of Esay the Prophet Esay 6.9.10 Which you in this case of yours may fitlie also applie vnto your selues 2. Further you can not deny but it hath to the Parliament ben made manifest Now that being gathered out of all the parts of the Land and representing the whole body thereof as I noted in my former aunswer by this is evident that the whole body of the Land have had it manifested vnto them Exod 3.16.18 Deut. 21.2.6.7.8 2 Sam. 5.1.3 1 Chron. 13.1 2.4 28.1 2. Act. 28.17 And this in such cases is sufficient yea the best course that can be taken for the generall State Of which the question is In the place before alledged we fynd that Paul judged it the best course and sufficient to call together but the chief of the Iewes and to testify his cause vnto them Act. 28.17 c. And otherwise how will you prove the Religion now mainteined among you to be the profession and consent of the whole Land Do all and every one that is member of your Assemblies so professe Nay do they so much as know what it or anie Religion is As then it stands for your profession so must it for your conviction that what is done by or to the Parliament it is reputed as done by or to the whole Land 3. The books also that are published and our testimony otherwise not onely by word and practise of vs all but as is come to passe in many even by death exise imprisonment c. are offred to all alike and knowen so to be throughout the Land If anie then be ignorant or vnconvinced it lyeth vpō themselves who either beleev not what they know or might know further if they would Ier. 9.6 But we may feare it is with you as Ieremy said that in deceit you refuse to know the Lord and his truth Beware therefore least that come vpon you which is spoken of in the Prophets Behold ye despisers and wonder and vanish away for I worke a worke in your dayes a worke which ye will not beleev if any declare it vnto you Hab. 1.5 with Act. 13.40.41 4. Finallie can you give vs a rule or instance of such conuiction as you insinuate Would you have vs go to all your parishes and Assemblies one after another yea to every Prelate and Priest man and womā old and young high and low bond and free throughout the Land and conuince them in particular If you meane so all men surelie will eyther pitty your simplicity or laugh at your follie I omit that
the Papists might thus plead as you do And that so much the more as they bring more show of Scripture Pag. 129. then you More show I say as before I noted For otherwise I know both they and you pervert the Scriptures to mainteine your errors I wish it be not to your destruction Consider these things Mr Iacob and returne a sounder aunswer or els learne to lay your hand on your mouth To that which you vrge next concerning my self I have aunswered alreadie Pag. 41. But that which I vrged next to you viz your forsaking the true ministery Pag. 108. worship and order appointed by Christ as the Israelites also did and your retayning a false Ministery vvorship and confusion of Antichrist c. This you passe by and aunswer not a word vnto it Then where I alledged that you vvere not behind but rather exceeded the Israelites in persecuting vnto bands banishment and death such as beare vvitnes to the truth of Christ c. To this you aunswer It is a toy Thus first you make ‡ a mocke of sinne and so carry your self as if you had ben Chapleine to Boner Bancroft Gardiner Whitgift or some such Caiphas Pro. 14.9 By this also you testifie that not onelie the Prelates and Formalists as some would beare vs in hand but even the Reformists among whom you reckon your self have your hands in our blood consenting vnto and approving that which is done against vs. Further you do thus become like the Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites vpoÌ„ whom Christ pronounced a most heavy Wo Mat. 23 29-35 for that whiles they builded the tombes of the Prophets slaine by their Fathers themselves did kill and persecute the witnesses of Christ sent vnto them And yet they blessed themselues in their evill even as you do Behold to what height of impiety you are come and in how fearfull estate you remaine But yet you comfort your selves with two things 1. that this can not make you worse then the Iewes in Christs tyme who for all that they persecuted yet were not wholy fallen from God O most wofull estate Though yet your case be worse then theirs inasmuch as their Church was in a true constitution yours in a false Mat. 21 â—3 c. Act. 2. 13. 17. chap. 19.8.9 And therefore they to be admonished which was done by Christ and his Apostles afore anie were required to separate and save themselves from that froward generation Whereas the rule and commaundement concerning your and all false Churches is forthwith to go out froÌ„ such and to witnes the truth against them Rev. 18.4.5.6 12.17 14.12 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Phil. 1.28.29 Hos 4.15 Amos. 5.5.6 Micah 2.10 And thus far your estate is worse then theirs so as both other account is to be made of it and other maner of walking to be vsed toward it But suppose you were both alike in this yet most miserable is your case when for your persecution you are driven to plead the example of the Iewes 1 Thes 2.15.16 Mat. 23.33.34.35 †who both killed the Lord Iesus and their owne Prophets and did by persecution drive away the Church and Apostles of Christ and brought vpon themselves all the righteous bloodshed vpoÌ„ the earth froÌ„ the beginning of the world and had the kingdome of God taken from them neither could escape the damnation of hell wrath being come vpon them to the vtmost as both Christ and his Apostles testifyed against them How wofull then and miserable is your case though it be no vvorse then theirs 2. The second thing is that you say we suffer more then we need if we would but acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is that therefore it is not Christs crosse in that regard but our owne that we beare 1. But what if the Iewes or Papists did or should say thus much vnto them they persecuted Were it of anie moment Nay did not Boner and other of the Papists often so speak to the Martyrs 2. What think you also of the suffrings of Mr Vdall Mr Cartvvright Mr Fenner Mr Dearing Mr Merbury c. Did they suffer more then they needed Or diâ— they not acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is Or was it not Christs crosse but their owne that they bare 3. Tell vs next what grace of God is with you which we acknowledge not so far as it is Hold you anie truth of doctrine which we hold not Or reject you anie errors which we reject not Approve you anie way of righteousnes which we approve not Or refuse you anie evill which we refuse not If thus we do not convince vs by the Scripture †2 Tim. 3.16.17 which is profitable to these vses that the man of God may be absolute being fully furnished to everie good work But if we do thus as by the grace of God we do then your speach against vs is vntrue and your persecution of vs vnjust 4. Shew withall in what particulars we suffer more then we need 5. And prove that the things we suffer for are not good but evill Being carefull alwaie that your proofs be from the word of God which onelie is the rule of truth 6. Finallie we testify in all good conscience before God and men that we suffer onelie for bearing witnes to the truth of Christ against the abominations of Antithrist And this the Confession of our faith alreadie published in English Dutch and Latin doth and will testifie to the ages present and to come As also our other writings Examinations Aunswers Conferences c. For which you have alreadie condemned and put to death divers of vs and others you have imprisonned impoverished banished c. It is then Christ his crosse which we beare through his grace And you are become fighters against God and persecuters of Christ in his members Yea even this writing of yours proclaimeth that you are now alreadie become drunken with the blood of the Saints and with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus Els could you never have pleaded so wickedlie nor blessed your selves so foolishlie as you do But we will leave you and our cause vnto God who judgeth righteous judgement and will give every man according to his works When he maketh inquisitioÌ„ for blood he will remember all that you have done vnto vs and will not forget the complaint of the poore Therefore will wee wayte on him and say no more but with Zechariah when he was put to death ‡ 2 Chron. 24.22 The Lord look vpon it and requier it In the last place you vrge againe that there is contrariety betvveen my speach here and in the second Reason before 1 But I pray you tell me Saith not the Scripture both the things that are spoken in these two places Read we not for the one that Christ accounted the Iewes not the Samaritans the true worshippers of God Ioh 4.22 c.
And for the other that Christ notwithstanding said to some of the Iewes Maâ— 15.9 they vvorshipped God in vaine teaching doctrines mens precepts Mat. 15.9 How say you Mr Iacob is the Scripture therefore contrarie to it self Or were Christs speaches contrarie the one to the other Pag. 83. 2 Besides are you so dull as you can not conceive no not when it is told you that the sinnes and corruptioÌ„s of the meÌ„bers of a true Church may fitlie be alledged against whole false Churches and yet neither condemne the true constitution of that Church wherein the one stand nor justifie the false constitution of the other 3 Yea know you not that a Church in true constitution jointlie considered may be said to be true vvorshippers of God c. and yet some yea manie of that Church be said also through their owne default in other respect to vvorship God in vaine or to be tainted with Idolatry or the like And yet no contradiction be implyed in so saying Seing you cannot vnderstand it in Christs words concerning the Ievves see if you can perceive it in Pauls to the Corinthians When he speaketh to the whole Church jointlie considered he commendeth them for keping his ordinaÌ„ces and acknowledgeth they call on the Name of the Lord Iesus 1 Cor. 1.2 11.2 But when he speaketh in respect of some that sate and eat of the sacrifices in the Idol-temples he biddeth them fly from Idolatry and telleth them they cannot be partakers of the Lords table and of the table of Divels 1 Cor. 10.14.21 8.10 Yet is he not contrarie to himself for all this Mynd withall what I aunswerd before concerning this point in the Second reason Pag 90. And so againe I leave it to the Reader to judge whether the contrariety you speak of be not in deed an harmony and that therefore you abuse both the Scripture and vs. Chap. 13. The seventh Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson If the Spirit of God account them to be departers from the faith and consequentlie no true Christians who though they hold other truthes of the Gospell yet forbid to marry and commaund to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiving Then such account must needs be made of the estate of the Church of England which not onelie both these things but withall forbiddeth the true Ministerie and worship of God and commaundeth a false Whose Ministers and people also do all of them partake therein For proof whereof besides their practise of these and persecution of the truth see their owne Canons Articles Statutes Iniunctions c. But the former is true 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 7. Reason â—â— 1â— THis yout seaventh Reason is They are departed from the faith that forbid to marry and commaund to abstayne from lawfull meates Also this is worse then that viz. to forbid the true Ministery and to commaunde a false which we in England doe Ergo we are departers from the faith I deny this AntecedeÌ„t that is your AssumptioÌ„ with a distinctioÌ„ The Papists †See â—hâ—â—â— Testam in Mat. 15.18 Fr. Io. See D. Fulkeâ— answer therevnto forbidding of mariage meals if they had don no worse doth not make them departers froÌ„ the saith that is not “ or not fuÌ„damentally not simply vvhich vvordâ—s I think â—itter to bee here vsed as in my next Reply is further declard totally No more could their Hyerarchie and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such The Papistes fall from Christ ‡ That is fundameÌ„tally simply see in the 2. Reply follovving wholy in other poincts namely 1. The Papall supremacy 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by workes Which blessed bee God wee are farre from Therfore the Apostle in saying They departed from the faith meaneth in * vid. in abstayning froÌ„ Mariage and meetes these poincts they erred or departed from the faith but not absolutly and wholy 2. Furthermore touching your Proposition if you vnderstand Paul of Martion the Heretike and Tatianus who did absolutly condemne Mariage and certen meats they even therein might vvholy fall froÌ„ the faith I meane somwhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites “ Pag. 105.112 lately spoken of namely for having their consciences convicted and seared with a whot iron And thus are they in no comparison with vs of EnglaÌ„d nor with the Papistes neither if they had erred in nothing else Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 7. Reason HEre being not able with any colour to deny the consequent of the Proposition neither to justify your present Ministery worship Canons Articles IniunctioÌ„s c. which you must do Mr Iacob and still we call for it if you will justify your present estate yet being desperate sure for els you would never have done it you feare not to gainsay the Assumption that is the very words and testimony of the Scripture it self 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 The Apostle saith that they which forbidd Mariage and Meats are departed from the faith You say No. Now whether I pray you shall we beleev You or the Apostle But what colour have you for your deniall This forsooth That they which doe so do not depart from the faith totally and that the Apostles meaning is that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy So by your conceit none may be accounted departers from the faith that depart onelie in some poincts but they which doe it totally from all And thus may no heretikes or Antichrists that euer haue bene or shal be in the world be iudged departers froÌ„ the faith because they depart from it but in some poincts and not absolutly from all Thus have you justified at once the Arians Nestorians Sabellians Papists Familistes Anabaptistes and whom not because they depart but in some not wholy from all poincts of faith Is it not great pitie that Antichrist hath so long wanted such a stout Champion as can thus in one word justify his forbidding of meates and mariage yea and his most detestable Hierarchie and superstitions withall By your learning Mr Iacob all the Martyrs and writers heretofore which by evideÌ„ce of this Scripture convicted the Synagoges of Antichrist to have departed from the faith and therefore separated from them were vtterly deceived Yea and the Apostles themselves were wholy mistaken when they call Antichrists Church and Religion ♣ 2 Thes 2.7 a mysterie of iniquitie which ‡ 1 Tim. 4.2 speaketh lies through hypocrisy * 2 Pet. â— 1 prively bringing in daÌ„nable heresies and ‡ hauing a shew of godlines but denying the power thereof And Iohns eyes it seemeth were not matches 2 Tim. 3.4 when he saw in the whores forehead that is in Antichrists Church and Religion a name written A mystery great Babylon the mother of vvhoredomes and
abhominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 For now I would know of you who are so deep a Clerke how Antichrists Church and Religion should iustly be accounted a mystery of iniquitie and truely be said to speak Lies in hypocrisy also prively to bring in Damnable heresies and to haue a Shevv of godlines if they did absolutly and vvholy departe from the faith and not onelie frō some points thereof But over and above all it seemeth by this reason that not onelie the Apostles were mistaken in giuing vs markes how to know false teachers and false religions But also Christ himselfe when he said †Mat. 7.15 Bevvare of false Prophetes vvhich come to you in sheepes clothing but invvardly are ravening vvolves And againe †Mat. 24.23.24 If any shall say vnto you Loe here is Christ or there beleeve it not For there shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and shall shevv great signes and vvonders so that if it vvere possible they should deceive the very elect Now if they should totally depart frō the faith what sheepes clothing I pray you should they have to come in Or how should either themselves be said to come in the name of Christ affirming their Religion to be Christs and shewing signes and wonders to draw men therevnto Or the elect be in such vnspeakable danger to be deceived by them This might suffice to shew the falsehood and impietie of your answer But yet I will note a few things mo therein First it being graunted that the popish forbidding of Mariage and meats so they were no worse doth not make them depaxters frō the faith totally yet tell vs if holding never so manie truthes besides and yet forbidding these they could by the word of God truely be said in that estate to hold the faith of Christ and to be true Christians 1 Tim. 4.1.3 If they could not as the Apostle * testifieth then is your answer in this respect also nothing to the purpose but against your self both for the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and for the English Hierarchy and other abominations among you received from the Papistes which vnder colour of this answer you would defend Next see in Bales Votaries and in the Acts and monuments c. what abominable filthines the forbidding of mariage and what fowle superstition the forbidding of meats hath wrought in the kingdome of Antichrist And tell me then what man fearing God durst once open his mouth for such divelish doctrines and estate Againe where you say The Papists fall from Christ in other poincts besides the aforsaid Namely 1. The Papall supremacie 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by vvorkes vvhich England novv is far from Tell vs first whether in this sence the Papists can for these be said to depart from the faith totally If they can not what weight is there in this for defēce of your estate that the Papists could not alledge for themselves viz that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy Secondly tell vs whether there are no other poincts but these three in the Papists Religion which make them in their estate to be departers from the faith and consequentlie false Christians and false Churches If there be as you can not deny of what weight then is your answer to defend the present constitution of your people and assemblies seeing there are divers other things besides these that do and may cause that you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches in that estate Many “ Servetus Sabellius Arius the Anabaptistes c. heretikes heretofore have and at this day do reject these three aforsaid Are they therefore in their estate to be accounted true Chrestians or true Churches Thirdly your manner of reasoning heer for your defence is as if the Adulterers to justify their course of life should alledge thus We are 1 no Blasphemers 2 no Persecutors 3 no Murtherers as such and such are therefore we depart not from the way of life but our estate and course of life is good and such as may be continued in Yet the Scripture sayth * Iam. 2.10.11 whosoever shall keep the vvhole Lavv and yet faileth in one poinct is guiltie of all For he that sayed Thou shalt not commit adulterie saied also Thou shalt not kill Novv though thou doest no adultery yet if thou killest thou art a transgressour of the Lavv and contrariwise So that whatsoever sinnes the Adulterer be far from yet as Salomon saith cōmitting adultery vvith a vvoman he fayleth in heart and destroyeth his owne soule Prov. 6.32 The same is the case of all spirituall Adulterers who whatsoever sinnes they be farre from yet in the worship of God runne a vvhoring after their owne inventions embracing the bosomes of strange vvomen and drinking on their cup of fornications Num. 15.39 vvith Prov. 5.20 and Rev. 17.4 Ier. 4.18 Fourthly shew vs sufficient warrant from the Scriptures why setting these three aside the Hierarchy and other popish abominations received among you can not be judged to make you in such estate departers from the faith and therefore false Christians and false Churches whatsoever truthes you hold besides Num. 16.1.2 c. Corah Dathan Abiram and their partakers were far from the Abominations of the Heathen they held also the poincts of faith that Moses and Aaron held differing onelie from them and departing onely from the faith in a matter concerning the Priesthood whereof notwithstanding they * vers 3. shewed their reasons why they were so perswaded Yet will you not deny I trow but they departed from the faith and were in this estate neither to be accounted true Israelits nor their assemblies true Churches with which communion might be kept If you should the Scripture is witnesse against you Num. 16.26 Now compare case with case and tyme with tyme and you shall find the estate of your people and Assemblies to be far more grievous As hath ben shewed alreadie in the Second Exception before and in other Treatises to which we have yet received no answer viz The ansvver to Maister A.H. The 9. Reasons concerning not hearing the Ministers of these assemblies of England To conclude this poinct if your Abominations in England were farre fewer then they are yet so long as you reteine that poisonfull leaven of your Hierarchy and vvorship we must tell you as the Scripture saith and experience teacheth That †2. King 4.39.40 a little poison bringeth death vnto the whole pot of potage A 1 Cor. 5.6 litle leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump And Eccl. 10.1 a fevv dead flyes cause the oynctemēt of the Apothecarie to stinke and putrifie Although indeed your abominations are not a few but swarme in abundance among you Some whereof see before Pag. 63. c. In the next place fearing belike that the evidence of “ 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 this Scripture could not by these shiftes of yours be avoided
a true Reason it maketh Maister Cranmer c. denyers of the faith and not true Christians also For maintenance whereof you have here not one poore vvord at all Tovvching that you say we cannot deny but graunt that we departe from and deny the faith in our Ministery I have told you hovv in my ansvver to your 7. Reason Also see my Replyes to your 2. Exception Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 8. Reason NOw that all your shifts fayle you come with Ifs and And 's If the Apostle meane this and If he meane that c. As if the Apostles * words were not playne 1 Tim. 5.8 so as the meaning may easily be discerned of anie that is not wilfullie blynd Read and mynd in all such cases and Scriptures that which is written Prov. 8.9 with Act. 28.26.27 But you say the Apostle may very well meane both such as neglect their houshold against convenient Christian providence and such as do it against the light of conscience and natures instinct If the first then you deny the Assumption that is the Apostles owne saying And thus againe you give the holy Ghost the lye If the latter then you deny the Proposition And then you must prove that thus they do it For who knoweth not that such will not for this case any more then you for yours confesse that they do it against light of conscience c. Nay will they not say as stiflie as you that this concerneth not them And moreover is not that also which is light in one mans conscience often darke in another mans by one meanes or other See it in an example One of your professors in London runneth to all your Sermons and Lectures from place to place throughout the City every day and every houre By this meanes he neglecteth his familie You tell him he doth it against light of conscience and natures instinct He denyes it and saith he doth it not so but as being perswaded in his conscience that he must first seek the kingdome of God and that then all outward things shal be cast to him and his Herevpon in a blynd zeale he doth as aforesaid Now tell me Is not this man notwithstanding within compasse of the Apostles rule here spoken of Yet will he stand against it for his case as stiffe as you for yours yea and alledge for himself more colour and show of Reason then you do or can for your Hierarchy c. So then both the Proposition and Assumption stand firme against you and therefore also the whole Reason Now here againe being loth belike to give them any rest you call for Mr Cranmer c. As if they were your Pages to wayte at your heeles on every call and to serve your turne at every need whether they will or not Never were poore men in all the world I think made such a stale But they serve you accordingly They let you commaund and go without For every where you commaund their names and yet alway go without their fellowship As I have shewed before in particular Pag. 40. 41. Towching your graunt let the Reader note here againe that you yeeld you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery c. You say you have before told vs how But what you have said before is there aunswered and taken away And besides for vs it is sufficient that it is done Look you vnto it how you do it It may be some of you do it of ignorance some of knowledge against the light of your owne consciēces some for feare of men some for love of the world some of contention or vaine glory some for their profit pleasure ease honour quyetnes or the like Thus I deny not but in the maner of doing there may be among you in these respects a divers measure and proportion of sinne But this concerneth not vs but your selves to look vnto and that greatlie Chap. 15. The Ninth Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THey which do otherwise teach and condiscend not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines all such by the rule of the Apostle are to be separated frō and therefore cannot in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 But such is the case of all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their ministery worship and Church constitution As appeareth both by the severall points of their false doctrine * Points of false doctrine els where noted and by the proofes “ Pag. 61. 63. 135. c. here before alledged out of their owne Canons Articles Iniunctions c. Therefore all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their Ministery worship and Church constitution are by the rule of the Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separate from them that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 We holding those Articles do teach diverse things in the Hierarchy c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a fallacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Aunswer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholy or absolutly And so the Apostle here meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you prove vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Ievves Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 Therefore you ought not vvholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs vvholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer Ridley were vvith their Congregations in King Edwards tyme. And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian. Cōclusion The contrary vvhereof is such a Paradox as hath not ben heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and have alvvayes held othervvise Themselves †M. Barrow Mr. Penry Mr. Iohnson heretofore have acknovvledged and professed it The holy Martyrs that lived in King Edvvards dayes and dyed in Queene Maries dayes must be othervvise cut of from Christ vvho vvere true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practise thereof or verily not at all But now it is vvonder vvhat extreame passion hath driven them to this denyall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptory separation And therefore rather then they vvould
worship and service of God Vnto these questions and the particulers thereof for the causes aforesaid we desire your direct answer with proofes of your answers from the scriptures According to which word if you speak not as I said before so I say againe Esa 8.20 it is because there is no light in you And now to conclude where you would in the end of your writing being not able to answer our Reasons fasten vpō vs some strange passion yea meere desperatnes for separating from you and answering of you as we have done we refer it to the godly and discreet Reader to iudge by that which hath ben said on both parts whether it bee not your selves that are taken with the strange passion you speake of and driven therevnto by meer desperatnes when for to mainteyne your owne estate you will haue the scriptures to fall and exalt the Church and Magistrate above Christ himself even flesh and blood above God blessed for ever Your practise whereof see before Pag. 28. 91. 100. 105. 135. c. But for this all your vnrighteous dealing against the truth people of God we leaue you to the Lord who searcheth the heart and tryeth the raynes to giue euery man according to his wayes according to the fruite of his workes That is to them that by cōtinuance in weldoing seek glorie honor and immortalitie eternall life But vnto them that are contentious and disobey the trueth obey vnrighteousnes indignation wrath Ier. 17.10 with Rom. 2.6.7.8 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 9. Reason IN this your defence of the last Reason you mislike that I say it is a fallacy and you say I shew none Marke what I say Euery one of your Reasons I say every one is a very proper fallacy and an artificiall parte of Sophisterie as by my seuerall answers to them may appeare Your First Reason is called in the scholes Fallacia ab eo quod est secundum quid ad simpliciter prouing a thing to be simply by that which is but after a sort The Second is the very same The Third Fallacia equiuocationis A fallacie of Ambiguity The Fourth is the very same The Fift is petitio principij a begging of the question The Sixth the very same fallacie that was in the First and Second Reasons The Seauenth Eight and Ninth haue all the Fallacy of Equiuocation and if you will the same with that in your First Second and Sixt Reasons also Further where you say that here I graunt you the cause it is very absurd The Apostle 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 saying separate from such hath a two fould sence Either such as teach otherwise then the trueth fundamentally and then separate wholly Or not fundamentally but erring only in poincts lesse then the foundation and theise diuersely also Either presumptuously obstinately and of a desperate conscience and then if that appeare separate from such wholy Or els erring in simplicitie of ouersight and former preiudice from such separate nor wholly but only from the very error or errors in no wise from their Christian communion and societie seeing theise are true Christians Seing therefore our corruptions of the Praelacy and Ceremonies be of these latter sort which thing hetherto you haue not nor cannot ouerthrowe withall you must vtterly ouerthrowe Mast Cranmer the rest of the Martirs their Christianitie like wise Therefore wee in England by the grace of God are still true Christians you ought so to acknowledge vs as you will answer vnto God All which you may doe yet touch no parte of our Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to giue allowance vnto them And in all this there is no contradiction with my selfe it is but your distempered conceipt that seemeth contrarie Nither is our absolute departure from the Papists hereby anie whit impeached Wee haue iustlie forsaken them cleane because by their very professiō and doctrine wee canot esteeme them true Christians neither in case of saluatiō while they so remaine but indeed very Antichrists as the scripture proueth Which thing also if you say of vs you say falslie it is our present question and you doe not proue it nor euer can doe As for your 17. poincts of false doctrine which you most falsly lay to our chardge what haue I to doe with them I list not to meddle at this prsent but with that which wee haue in hand◠namely to iustifie that our publike booke of Articles of Religion so farre forth as that it erreth not fundamentally conteyneth sufficient to make a true Christian As it doth not Against the which hetherto you haue brought nothing worth the hearing as we haue seene After you would proue vs to be like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from But without all good reason They were not so many but they were easily certified of the truth that Paul preached but how infinitly many moe are there in this land that know nothing of this controuersie 2. Secondly Paul was better able to conuince them by the scriptures and did more effectually and apparantly then you doe or can our whole Realme 3. Thirdly how many learned are there in this lande that have many probable seeming reasons alleadge them publish them for the Praelacy against you are vnanswered And yet will you say they are conuicted those infinite others depēding on them I say cōuicted aswell as those Iewes What if these speake euill of that which you hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme Are they all yea all the land therefore abolished from Christ Might not all this at least be sayd of the whole estate of the Iewes in Christes time and after aswell yet they ceased not to bee Churches why then are you so partiall against vs Lastly you would shew Reasons why the Apostles wholy separated not from the Iewes Synagogues after Christ Act. 13.14 c. Which you will in no wise haue to serue vs. But alas for all your Exceptions against vs you haue neuer a reason but one and that is petitio principij That wee were neuer separated from the world nor set in the way order of Christ but in the confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministerie c. were neuer the ordinances of God c. This is but crauing the whole question And I haue refuted these quarells in a short writing hereafter following about the comparison of the Ministerie with Mariage which yet you haue no leysure to answer this whole three yeares togeather and vpwarde And further you doe not shew any vtter and apsolute separation from the whole Church of the Iewes a great while after Christ but the contrarie is seene Act. 21.23.24.26 though from some one or two synagogues they separated after full experience of their obstinate malitious resistance of the truth which we deny not Touching the Conclusion In the cōclusion of my former Reply to proue your vtter separation from vs a Paradox
First I alledged all the reformed Churches For who knoweth not but they all hold CoÌ„munioÌ„ with vs as Churches of God yet you dare either deny this or vtterly peruert it You tell vs of your Answers to Maister Cartwright Mr. Hildersam that are vnanswered If they be like to this your answer here verely they doe wisest in yeelding silence to such friuolous wandring wordes Secondly I alleadged your selues to haue acknoledged heretofore That our publique doctrine allowed would did make many of vs true Christians You too shamefully deny it And say you are for witnessing against it imprisoned banished c. Whereto I answer that if for these things you are troubled I know none can pittie you And because you say none of you euer acknowledged it I will therefore repeat your owne words Mr. BARROW in his last answer in writing to Mr Gifford intituled A fevv obseruations to the reader of Mr. Giff. last Reply Sect. 4. saith thus The next calumniations whereby Mr Gifford indeuoreth to bring vs into hatred with the whole Lande is That we condemne all the persons both men and women of England which are not of our minde and pluck them vp as tares wherein me thinkes he doeth vs open wrong if not against his owne conscience yet against our expresse writngs every where c. Have we not commended the faith of the English Martyr and 〈◊〉 thousand notwithstanding the false offices and gâ—â—â—â— corruptions in the worship they exercised not doubting but the mercy of God through their syncere â—aith to Iesus Christ extended and super abounded above all their sinnes seene and vnseene And what now should let that we should not have the same hope where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicity is found So that they neither neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. Aftervvard in the same Section The faithfull servants of Christ denying the whole constitution and government of this Church of England may iustly deny the people whilest they remaine in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church yet hereby not condemne them with any such peremptory sentence as Maister Gifford suggesteth Nota from Christ to cut them of from Gods election or from Christ Mr PENRIE in his confession of faith published in writing a litle before his death saith thus The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie touching the Natures and Offices of Christe Iustifying faith Sacramentes Eternall life and the rest established by her Maiesties Lawes and professed by her selfe their Honors and such as haue knowledge in the Assemblies of this land I acknowledge from my heart to be such as if I mainteined not the vnitie and held not the communion of the same doctrine with them in these poincts I could not possibly be saved For out of the communion of the true profession which her Maiestie hath established in these and the like truthes there is no hope of saluation lâ—ft But ioyne notwithstonding with the publique worship in the assemblies of this Land I dare not for the former causes I doe moreouer willingly confesse That many both of the Teachers also of the Professors within these Parish assemblees haue so embraced this truth of doctrine established and professed in this Land as the Lord of his infinite goodnes hath graunted them the fauour to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lordes election I professe before men and Angels that I iudge them to be meÌ„bers of that body whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus is the head Onely herein the Lord be mercifull vnto them as to my self in regard of my sinnes That they are not vnder that outward forme of gouernement that Christ hath left c. And in his examination before Master Fanshaw lately published by your selves in print he confesseth the Churches of England to be the true Churches of Christ And what say you Maister Iohnson Have you not affirmed this thing your self to me and to Maister Philips namely towching your owne selfe when you were of vs That then you doubted not but you were a true regenerate Christian By vertue of what doctrine By extraordinarie reuelation Nay but by our publique doctrine of our Church when you stoode and continued a publique Minister of the same If you beleued so of your selfe and that truely vvhat letteth but you may beleeue the like of many Thousands novve Further vvhere you say my applying of the Martyrs is answered before Let the Reader iudge You shevv here that some of them misliked the Hyerarchie But it maketh stronger against you seeing for all that they themselves refused not to communicate and partake vvith them as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. After vvhere you say though the reformed Churches your selves and the Martyrs had thought otherwise then you now do yet all this is no so und proof against you Yes in deed that novv you hold a Paradoxe those vvitnesses are sufficient for that vvhere vnto may be added the vvhole Churches iudgment and practize vvith all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300. or 1400. yeares Chrysostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom. Austen Ambrose c. They all have thought that vnder the Prelacie and humane ceremonies men may be true Christians Then these witnesses are sufficient that your denyall hereof is a strange vnusuall opinion that is a Paradox Finally to trie vs you propound a many of questions But I leave all this superfluous stuffe to your self to be pondered First let vs cleare this present question and your Reasons hereabout Till then we have no leasure to medle further The Lord of his mercy open your eyes to see your extremitie whereby you do greatly hinder not helpe the truth Not a Firâ—â—â— for victorie but a lover of truth which you would seem to suffer for That you may indeed shew your self as becometh a Christian Pastor not impossible to erre but no lover of error * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not regarding your owne but the prayse of Christ in all things AMEN Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 9. Reason AS if your bare word were proof ynough still you say but never prove that this Reason is a fallacy Yea and all the Reasons before in your schoole-learning are likewise But the best is you are not the greatest Clerk the schooles have knowen Every of the Reasons is proved before to be true direct sound and strong against you And in all your Replyes against them what els have you done but played the Sophister and that notablie Apply therefore to your self what you speake here And of all these things now let the Reader iudge It seemeth verie absurd vnto you that I say you do here graunt vs the cause But what if the absurditie be found in your self Marke then first your owne words before Pag. 156. ‡ We graunt say you so far forth as we hold otherwise then truth so
far separate from vs. Now you hold otherwise then the truth in all the particulars †before rehearsed towching your Prelacy Priesthood Sacraments Book of common prayer Pag. 63. c. confusion of people c. Thus far therefore you graunt we may and ought to separate from you And further we do not at all For there is not anie truth you hold which we also hold not with you So then in expresse words you yeeld vs the cause And yet further you yeeld it againe in that you do not defend by the Scripture your Hierarchy worship doctrines Canons Articles Iniunctions c. received and ioined vnto by all in your Church How absurd then and vngodlie is your denyall of so manifest a truth And how distempered is your brayne that can not perceive so plaine a contradiction with your self Your two fould sence of the Apostles words is a silly fiction of your owne head without anie ground or proof at all If you will have vs think otherwise bring warrant for the particulars of your distinction from the book of God But I pittie you Mr Iacob For I see you are brought to a low ebbe Who knowes not that this is the very last refuge of all ennemyes of the truth when they are pressed with evidence of Scripture so as they can not avoid it then to faine distinctions and to cast about for the sence as if that were hard and obscure which in deed is most plaine and easy Look in Bellarmine Bilson Whitgift Bridges and whosoever els have written against the truth if their dealing be not such This then doth not aunswer the Argument but proveth it rather to be vnaunswerable Tim. 6.5 As for the words The Apostle saying from such separate thy self if now you would know from whom Himself telleth it as plaine as may be If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines c. from such separate thy self vers 3. But such is your case in particular As hath ben proved in your Prelacy and the other abominations of Antichrist yet taught and mainteyned among you Therefore are we bound by this rule of the Apostle to separate our selves from you Els should we aunswer it to God at that day Of your continuall vayne distinctions of fundamentally wholy presumptuously simply c. ynough is said alreadie in the handling of the for mer Reasons As also of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs Whom here you set before vs againe as coleworts not twise but ten tymes sodden Leave this vsage of them Mr Iacob for they have left you long synce See before Pag. 40.41 Next you tell vs we may ioyne with you and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them Prove this and you say somewhat But I doubt we shall find you as slow in proving as you are rash in speaking Mind but these particulars following which I will name for example Can we receive your Priesthood from the Prelates or execute it vnder them Can we ioyne to your Service book or anie part of your worship and Ministery Can we receive the word or Sacraments from your Ministers in that constitution Can we remaine members of your confused Assemblyes Can we stand subiect to your Prelates and their Courts Canons censures c. Can we I say do these or anie of them and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them In your next Reply Mr Iacob declare vs this riddle if you can And in the meane tyme I will attribute it to your distempered conceit that you do thus every foot forget and contradict your self and yet discerne it not But what will you say too if such as ioyne with you in anie part of your worship suppose it be the best become thereby partakers of your whole worship and constitution even of the worst things that are among you therein To make it plaine and certaine vnto you mynd these proofs In Israell †1 Cor. 10.18 they that did eate of the sacrifices as “ 2 Sam. 1.4.5 the people might were thereby partakers of the whole Iewish religion yea even of the altar Vnto which yet they might not come at all but the Priest onelie Lev. 1. chap. c. Numb 18.7 Luc. 1.9.10 In Corinth the Christians that abhorred Idols and Idolatry yet when after the sacrifices were offred * 1 Cor. 10 14-22 8.4.10 they sate but in the Idol Temples to eat of the meats that had ben sacrificed which in †1 Cor. 10.25.26.27 other places they might have done became thereby partakers of the whole Idolatrous wprship though they were not present at it but as they thought abhorred it In like maner they which connnunicate in anie part of your worship become thereby partakers and guiltie of the whole though it may be neither you nor they so think So false it is which here you give out that we may ioine with some of your worship and Ministery and yet towch no part of your Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give them allowance For the Papists to omit that you aunswer not what I obiected you see and graunt readily that they are no true Christians but very Antichrists c. Yet for your selves though your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people false doctrines c. be meerlie Popish and Antichristian you will not see and acknowledge it Take heed least when you see yet you wink with your eyes and though you vnderstand yet you harden your heart because you will not be converted and healed Esa 6.9.10 Act. 28.26.27 For the question between vs let the Reader iudge how I have proved it and how you have quitted your self and your Churches Where you say the points of false doctrine in your Church are most falsly laid to your charge all may see here againe you have an hard forehead to deny anie thing and yet are so sottish you can prove nothing But you say you list not meddle with them at this present I easily beleev you They are so pregnant against you as it is no marvell if you have no list to do it Otherwise you shew list ynough to medle with anie thing that you think may cary any show against vs. But you must mynd the point is not what you list but what you ought to meddle withall You have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches in the estate wherein now they stand Therefore must you aunswer aswell for the false doctrines as for the true mainteined in your Church Els would the Papists iustify their case against you well ynough For this cause then must you aunswer aswell for your Book of cōmon prayer and other your books of Articles Canons Iniunctions c. as for that book of Articles which was published in the yeare 1562. For they conteine the doctrine and
constitution of your Church aswell as the other if not also more They are publiklie authorised among you aswell as the other whether you respect the Prelates and Clergy in the Conuocation house or the whole body of the Land in the Parliament They are generallie receyved professed and practised of all the people in every Parish and Cathedrall Church throughout the Land aswell as the other Yea and more too your selves being witnesses One of your owne Prophets Mr Giff. Di. of the strife of the Church Pag. 100. writing of your estate saith There be thousands which be men and women growen that if a man aske them how they shall be saved they cannot tell Neither can your felf deny this to be true How do they then know and professe the faith of your book of Articles Or will you say they are as ignorant of your Service-book and of your Prelates other Articles Iniunctions Courts c. vnto which they ioyne and submit dayly Either therefore you must meddle with the false doctrines and other publik books of your Church aswell as with that book of Articles whereof you speak or els you meddle not at all with the question between vs neither defend your Churches estate The question between vs is Whether the truths you professe together with the false doctrines and abominations of Antichrist retained among you do make you true Churches and I true Christiās in that estate If you keep not to this point you may make as faire a plea for the Church of Rome and all other Hereticks whilest you meddle not with their errors and false doctrines but looke onely at the truths they professe Mynd but the Papists profession concerning Christ and his full and sufficient satisfaction for all our sinnes whereof I spake before Pag. 47. And consider now with your self how well and soundlie you have defended your Churches estate How your doctrine and constitution erreth fundamentally I have declared before Pag. 22. 114. 147. But now though you have no list to meddle with your Churches doctrine yet let vs see in your next Reply if your list will be to deale with your owne Your owne I say which I had from your self and take to be private to your self I had it from you in a Conference which passed “ between you and me April 3. 1597 in the presence of divers that can witnesse it Yet for more certainty and better remembrance I desired and obteined of you to write it downe your self So you gave it me then vnder your hand in writing which I have with me yet to shew Thus it is word for word A power borrowed from Antichrist to excommunicate may externally be committed vnto a people vsed by them who have power to excommunitate from Christ Henry Iacob When you had thus set it downe I desired your proof of it from the Scriptures But none could be had I could not obteine that at your hands Therevpon I tooke the paper and wrote vnderneath your assertion thus This is against the Scriptures 1 Cor. 5.4.5 compared with 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 Ezech. 43.8 Mat. 18.17.18.19.20 1 King 18.21 Fran Iohnson It is a good while Mr Iacob synce this passed between vs and like that you have had leysure ynough to consider of it all this tyme. Therefore in your next I hope you will have some list to meddle with this doctrine of your owne though you have none at all for your Churches Yet for the doctrines of your Church also because I am fallen into the mention of them againe let me put you in mynd of two things mo Mat. 13.24 c. The first is towching the parable of the tares spoken of before Pa. 158. of which because it is straungelie and daylie perverted among you for the maintenance of your confused and wicked estate therefore will I here in particular adde a word or two more besides that which I annexed before for the further explication of this point and conuiction of your error As first that you do consider with your selves if with this parable agree not also the Apostles doctrine where he calleth the Church the house of God and saith that in this house are not onelie vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earth and that as some of them be for honor so some be also to dishonor from which therefore if anie purge himself he shal be a vessel vnto honor sanctifyed and meet for the Lord and prepared to every good work 1 Tim 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2.16.17.18.19.20.21 3.5 Next that howsoever the parable be vnderstood by anie whether of 1 the generall estate of the Church from the beginning of the world to the end thereof how Sathan alway hath his tares his wicked ones sometymes more open sometymes more secret even as God alway hath his righteous children and servants vntill the day of that finall and everlasting separacion Mat. 13.35.40 2 Or the particular estate of the Church in the tyme of Antichrists apostasy wrought by Sathan vntill the discovery and full abolition thereof 2 Thes 2 3.-14 3 Or the Churches continuall being and cōversing in the world with the children of the wicked Which they must needs do or els they must go out of the world as the Apostle affirmeth 1 Cor. 5.9.10 Howsoever I say the parable be vnderstood whether of these or any the like yet doth it no way make for the receiving or reteining of the knowen wicked whosoever they be in the body of the Church The scope of the parable by these interpretations also leading to no such thing but onelie to comfort and instruct the godlie how to carry themselves with patience and wisdome in such estate of things in the world And the Apostle whose doctrine doubtles is not contrarie to Christs teacheth expressely in that place to the Corinthians and the other mentioned before both that the Church is a distinct body separated from the world not partaking in their evill wayes and that if anie of the Church will not so walk but commit iniquity and repent not that then they be so far from being suffred to grow or remaine any longer in the Church as they be forthwith cast out of it and delivered vnto Sathan the Prince of the world and children of disobedience even the Enemy that soweth the tares here spoken of And thus also was the Apostles practise For both which that is both his doctrine and practise herein see these Scriptures 1 Cor. 5. chap. 2 Cor. 2 6-11 6 14.-17 Act. 19.9 Ro. 16.17 Ephes 2.1.2 Gal. 5.12 2 Thes 3.6.14 1 Tim. 1.20 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2 16-21 3.5 4.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.38.39 To conclude then albeit that such having crept into the Church do both before and after their excommunication as do also the other of the world who never received the faith offend and trouble the Church and children of the kingdome yea and do often flourish also in outward
do it from all And for your resistance whether it be such as you speak of or not we leave to the Lord who knoweth the hearts and wayes of all men It sufficeth vs as it did the Apostles and must do the servants of God in all ages that the Reasons of separation include and belong vnto you all even all your Churches Ministers and people in that estate As I haue declared before throughout this Treatise Towching the conclusion Therefore vntill you prove the contrarie which will never be mark what I say the Paradox still remaineth vpon you and your Church Towching the reformed Churches some of * your selves men of far better iudgement and learning then Mr Iacob have confessed and published In the first Admonition to the Parl. that you have all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome against you And further that you have an Antichristian Hierarchy and Popish ordering of Ministers straunge from the word of God and the vse of all well reformed Churches in the world Yet you like blind Bayard sticke not boldlie to say to the contrarie that all men know they hold communion with you as Churches of God First then reconcile your self Mr Iacob with your fellow Reformists at home And then your Churches Hierarchy and constitution with the Ministerie and constitution of the reformed Churches abroad And remember here that the Ministery of those Churches is not esteemed sufficient by yours As the Priesthood of Rome is The proof of both which you may see in the answer to Mr A.H. Pag. 96. With whether of these then I pray you do you hold communion Or do you not in deed halt as newters between both Mynd further that Mr Beza whose iudgement you know is worthilie reverenced and approved in all the reformed Churches speaking but of fower or five of your corruptions affirmeth that in the Antichristian Church there is nothing more intolerable Bez. Epist. 8. yea that your case being so it is not a corrupcion of Christianitie but in deed a manifest defection from Christ His owne words I noted before Pag. 73. Now when themselves do thus witnes and write of your estate how should anie think that they hold communion with you as the Churches of God vnles you could prove they do also hold it the Church of God which standeth in manifest defection from Christ I know in deed that you have long deceived them by the Apology which you published for your selves against the Papists In which you concealed from them all your corruptions and abominations By meanes whereof not hauing knowledge of the truth of your estate they have therevpon for a tyme thought much better of it then it doth deserve or will beare As even some among them alreadie vpon better information synce have acknowledged But of this matter and of your dealing therein Reason 6 I have written alreadie †in the answer to Mr T. C. And therefore for these things I do still refer you as I did The Answer to Mr Hild. such as it is now is published And so may the answer to Mr Cartw. be in tyme speciallie seing you do thus provoke therevnto In the meane tyme divers copies thereof are abroad in mens hands In which as also in the ‡ other Treatise A â—revisâ—o â—f the Minist of Engl. Pag 67. 68. 69. I have noted in sundrie particulars the testimonie of the reformed Churches against your present estate You Mr Iacob may account of these or anie other our writings as you please Your toungue is no sclaunder Yet till we be answered and that soundlie from the word of God all men of conscience will see and mynd how you bring nothing at all in defence of your Churches and Ministerie but frivolous and wandring words Next followeth our owne acknowledgement to be discussed For towching that bloody mind and speach of yours when you say if we be troubled for witnessing against your Church estate none can pitty our imprisonnement banishement c. I leave you and it vnto God a See the like before Pag. 112. who seeth and will iudge Onelie let the Reader note here “ againe that not the Prelates alone but you also the forward preachers and professors have wittinglie and willinglie your hand in our blood Mr Barrow is the first you name Whom together with Mr Greenwood you †At Tyâ—um by London in the yeare 1593. Apr. 6. killed in time of Parliament that the ages present and to come may know it was done with knowledge of the whole Land In all his speach there is not one word that the members of your Church are true Christians in that estate He testifyed vnto death and sealed with his blood that you do all stand in Antichristian estate I think your self will not be so shameles as to deny it Now in his speach here alledged by your self marke fower things which all do shew it is against you 1. That speaking of the Martyrs false offices and corruptions he deemeth them saved notwithstanding through the mercy of God which superabounded above their sinnes c. By which is evident that he thought them vnder the wrath of God in respect of their false offices corruptions had not the mercy of God superabounded above those their sinnes For mercy you know presupposeth misery and superaboundance thereof a great measure of sinne 2. He intimateth as if he thought that these their sinnes were vnseen of them as doubtles they were of manie of them yea and of all of them as towching that measure of knowledge which God hath synce by his word revealed therein 3. He declareth that he was far from cutting of all among you as Mr Gifford suggested from Gods election or from Christ Where marke that he speaketh of Gods election vnder which we also trust that manie of you are not of your present outward estate In his Disco of the false Church Ref. of Mr Giff. Conferen c In respect whereof here he saith the servants of Christ may iustlie deny you in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church A case very wofull and miserable Yet adde herevnto that which ‡ els where often he testifyed that your Ministery worship estate are Antichristian c. For which cause he could not ioine with you in such estate but separated from you and witnessed this against you vnto death himself so signifying at the very tyme and place of his execution So far was he from iudging you to be in that estate true Christians To make the case yet more plaine know that we dare not condeÌ„ne them of the Church of Rome with any such peremptorie sentence as Mr Giffard accuseth vs to cutt them all from Gods election or from Christ Doth it therefore follow that in the constitution of there Church we iudge them true Christians Nothing lesse Yet thus you shame not to reason 4. He asketh what now should let that we should not have the same hope as of the Martyrs
ecclesiasticall offices 2. the maner of calling vnto the offices 3. a great part of the works wherein these false offices are imployed 4. the maintenance or livings whereby they are maynteined in their offices All which I will be bound to prove by the Lords help to be derived not from Iesus Christ but from the kingdome of Antichrist his great enemy And therefore forasmuch as I can not be partaker of the former holy things of God but I must be subiect vnto the power of Antichrist in these officers and knowen by those marks whereby his subiects are noted therefore I am enforced bound to seek the comfort of the word and Sacraments where I may have them without the submitting of my self vnto any ecclesiasticall power in Religion save onely vnto that which is derived from Christ Iesus the Lord in whom all fulnes of power dwelleth Col. 1.19 and from whom all those must derive their power and office vnto whom the Saincts of God are to submit their consciences to be wrought vpon in Religion Againe seing the aforenamed 4. enormityes of this Church are marks which properly belong vnto the Kingdome of the Beast that is the Romane Antichrist we dare not have any communion and fellowship with them nor be knowen by them least we shovld be partakers of those most fearfull most dreadfull iudgements which are denounced by the Spirit of God against all those that have communion with any of the irreligious inventions of the Beast Rev. 14.9.10 These are the things together with the want of Christs true order which I especially mislike and the speciall causes why I dare not ioyne with the Assemblyes of this Land c. Thus was his aunswer In which you may see how he professeth your Church offices and estate to be such as he dare not ioine therewith both because they are not derived from CHRist IEsus the LOrd of his Church and for that they belong to the kingdome and body of Antichrist and are marks of that Beast against which and all that partake therewith God hath denounced most fearfull iudgements in his word Vnto these most playne declarations of his mynd I might adde many mo out of his letters and other writings But what needeth it whenas the laying downe of his life in testimony against the Antichristian estate of your Church is and will be alway as a thousand witnesses against you whatsoever you pretend otherwise And now Mr Iacob let me vpon this occasion aske you this question whether you think Mr Barrow Mr Greenwood Mr Penry c. dyed Martyrs and witnesses of the truth against your Antichristian estate or whether you account them evill doers iustlie deserving to be put to death The thing is a publik actiō and cōcerneth the publik state of your Church which you would seem to defend Therefore is it needfull that you declare your mynd fullie and plainlie therein which yet I think you will be loth to do You love so to walke in darkenes and yet would seem to defend your Church when in deed you do nothing lesse Next you alledge myne owne acknowledgement to Mr Philips and your self for the approbation of your estate Of which being also obiected before I have spoken already Pag. 41. To it therefore I refer you Yet before I end this point I will note here three things more for the Reader to observe The first is towching Mr Barrow Mr Penry and my self that seing you spare not to wrest our words whose meaning all men know and our owne practise proclaymeth we can not therefore look for any other at your hands but that you will much more pervert the Scriptures and word of God about the meaning whereof men make so manie doubts and controversyes from tyme to tyme. The second is towching your owne words in these Replyes That whereas in the Conclusion of your first Reply Pag. 156. you sayd we our selves acknowledged your Assumption to be true now in the Conclusion of your second Reply Pag. 167. you chaunge your owne words and say we acknowledged your publik doctrine would and did make many of you true Christians By which you cleare vs and contradict your self For if your Assumption were true then not onelie many but all and every member of your Church should thereby be deemed true Christians as towching their outward estate even all your Prelates Priests Dumbe dogs Non-residents Thieves Coniurers c. Which you may speak with shame ynough Sure I am none of vs did ever acknowledge it and I trust never shall The third is concerning some things spoken to me in the presence of others at one tyme by Mr Philips whom here you name and at another tyme by your self Of Mr Philips when once he had speach with me about our cause I asked If her Maiesty should permit both that way wherein the Prelates and you now are and the way wherein we are to be free for all men to walke in eyther of them as they should be perswaded In which of the two then he would walke himself as being perswaded it was the truth of God Wherevnto he aunswered that then he thought he should walke in the way wherein we are Of your self also among other things once I asked this Whether you were so mynded for the Ministery which Christ hath appointed in his Church as you thought you ought and would dy for it God assisting you To which you answered Yea. Therevpon presentlie I asked agayne Whether you were so mynded for the Ministery of the CHurch of ENgland as you thought you ought would also dy for it To which you answered No. If now Mr Iacob I would presse conclusions out of Mr Philips words and your owne as you do out of myne and others might I not gather from your selves far better then you do or can anie thing from vs that in your consciences you see your Churches estate and Ministery to be vnlawfull and none of Christs at all But I spare you The Martyrs whom next you alledge I shewed to be against you by their owne testimony Vnto this you answer That it maketh stronger against vs seing although they misliked the Hierarchy yet they themselves refused not to communicate and partake with them then as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. But are you in deed so simple as not to perceyve that this is of no moment at all What if the Papists should so answer when we bring against them the testimonie of the auncient Martyrs towching the Masse the Hierarchy Auricular confession and other corruptions of that Church Or are you ignorant that * See before Pag. 44.45 Iohn Hus Iohn wickleffe William Swinderby and manie other of the Martyrs in elder tyme did in these things communicate with the Popish Church vnto their dying day If this aunswer then be frivolous for them in such case how should it not be likewise in yours Besides that you may by this reasō perswade aswell to communicate with the Popish
Church in their Masse and Ministery as with yours in your worship and Hierarchy But further by this aunswer you yeeld that the Martyrs spake and wrote against your Church estate Which being so whether do you or we I pray you the better You in following the error of their practise Or we in receyving the truth of their testimonie And then if all that you say be graunted is it ought but this that you have the weaknes and sinne of their practise for a cloke of your standing in evill whereas we have the truth and soundnes of their iudgement for our walking in that which is good Now let others iudge which of vs follow them best and have the best interest in them And let it also be mynded that they then comming newlie out of the darknes of Poperie and being exercised also with other points of that religion neither did nor could so consider of this matter as synce their tyme in this clearer light it hath in our dayes ben discussed Lastlie if you will have this answer of yours go for currant then will I by like reason prove that you may also submit to the Popes authority and receive all the corruptions of the Romish Church And albeit that which I have alreadie said of the auncient Martyrs before be sufficient for proof hereof yet will I shew it you further thus The Protestants you know do vsually alledg against the Popes Antichristian authority and other corruptions of that Church the sayings of Bernard Beda c. Suppose now the Papists should answer as you do here This maketh stronger against you seing for all that yet they themselues refused not to yeeld to the Popes supremacy and to partake with this Church as being Christs c. What would you reply againe Either you must say as the truth is that this answer is wandring and frivolous or els you must needs confesse that by this reason of yours you may also receive the Pope and all that popery which is alreadie cast out of England and communicate therewith Which I pray God be not the issue of this your pleading for and partaking with the remnants of Antichrist yet held in your Church To that where I demaunded If it were so that the reformed Churches we our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme had given allowance of your present estate and Church-constitution what would this help you when as the word of God condemneth you c. You aunswer that those witnesses are sufficient for this that we hold a Paradox So the testimony of Man if you had it is of more force with you then the warrant of Gods word And whatsoever the Scripture saith yet to you it is a Paradox if it be gainsaid by the reformed Churches c. Blush for shame Mr Iacob and fear any more to publish such godles assertions and shameles Paradoxes All your clipping and perverting of my words will not help you Neyther your new supply of the whole Churches iudgement practise with all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300 or 1400 yeares Chrisostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom Austen Ambrose c. As if they had knowen and practised the Antichristian abominations now had in your Church But when you bring proof of this your lavish speach it will then be tyme ynough to aunswer it In the meane tyme heare what Mr Tindall that faithfull Martyr sayd speaking of the Prelates and Priests in his age for their so alledging the Fathers as you do As for the holy Doctors saith he as Augustine Hierome Cyprian Chrysostomus and Bede will they not heare If they wrote any thing negligently as they were men that draw they cleane contrary to their meaning and thereof triumphe they Those Doctors knew of none authority that one Bishop should have above another neyther thought or once dreamed that ever any such should be This is Mr Tindall his speach and observation Which you may mynd I note it now for this that you may see how your Forefathers alledged the Doctors and how it stands you vpon well to mynd what proof is brought from them whether it be for this point which here he nameth or for anie other corruptions of Antichrist retayned among you Some of which I have rehearsed * before in particular Pag. 63. c. for which I will expect your proof from such antiquity as you speak of ad Kalendas Graecas in deed never And yet I know that both 1400 yeares synce and before also they began to declyne very much But Antichrist notwithstanding came not of a long tyme after to that height and impiety wherein now he is to be seen and felt both in your Church and in your mother of Rome Note also that when all is said that can be in this matter it is but a Popish shift to fly from the Scriptures to the Fathers and an impious Paradox to exalt their sayings who are knowen to have erred in manie things above the word of God which alone is the rule of truth and can not lye at all Finally you say that to try you I propound a many of questions Yet they are but seven in all In deed I think it doth and will try both you and your fellow Priests to aunswer them Such superfluous stuffe they are And have you not read too Iob. 32.3 how ‡ Iobs frends condemned him and yet could fynd no answer Apply it to your selves and your dealing with vs. But you say you would first have vs cleare this present question and our reasons thereabout Well besides that is already done the deciding of these few questions will fully and plainly do it Let others iudge if it would not And mynd you then what you have answered To shut vp all you tell vs aforehand you have no leysure to meddle further Very like so You have leysure ynough to write book after book to no purpose yet you have not so much as to aunswer a few short questions which may end all the controversie between vs. He that can not see how you would shift of the matter and yet labour to withold the truth in vnrighteousnes what doth he see The Lord open your eyes Mr Iacob that your self may see and mynd it As for others that be seduced by you and the rest of your Prophets teaching lyes let them in tyme afore it be to late apply vnto you and themselves in such estate that which is written The leaders of the people cause them to erre and they that are led by them are devoured Esa 9.16 Therefore also let them all even whosoever feare God and will be assured of his mercy give no rest to their soules vntill with the Prophet they can say in truth of heart and shew it forth in their practise My portion O Lord I have said to keep thy words I have considered my wayes turned my feet into thy testimonyes I made hast delayed not to keep thy commaundements I have refrayned my feet from every evill way
tyme and after as †Beza in Acts 15.20 some thinke even till their Temple and Citie were destroyed though they did personally hate and persecute Christ Such also was the sinne of the auncient declyning Bishops Cyprian Epiphanius Augustine Chrisostome Leo of Rome c. No lesse was in ours of late Cranmer Ridly Hooper c. in King Edwards dayes and no greater is now in ours presently especially towching our Churches Ministers too generally If you say we are all convicted now and sinne against our owne consciences as they did not in those tymes It is vtterly false and a palpable vntruth Whosoever knoweth any thing in our Church estate generally must needs see it that this poinct towching the Hyerarchy is not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one many holding and not of the simplest this present governement to be th' only true and right kinde but all men almost to be indifferent and lawfull very few indeed and scarce to be found that see it to be meerly nought or as you terme it wicked intolerable And in king Edwards tyme whosoever considereth shall finde H. Iâ— that the godly learned Protestans then were not vtterly ignorant of this point of reformation and yet sinned not against their conscience in bearing with the tymes neither were abolished from Christ And surelie towching the Iewes they were all generally more convicted then that Iesus vvas the Christ then vve are now that the Prelacy is of Antichrist yet they remayned a Church still because generally indeed they vvere not plainly conuicted Thus then this our sinne is * see the 2. sortes of fundamentall sinnes in the 2. Reply to your yâ—â—â—eason before Pag. 142 Fr. Io. See the aunswer thereto in the same treatise Pag 144.147 no way fundamentall it destroyeth not faith Christianity in our vvhole assemblies Therefore they remaine Christian people still as I affirmed not all godles prophane as you vncharitably speak O beware of rash hasty iudging even of one brother Rom. 14.3.4.13 how much more of such anb so many whole assemblies professing Christ in England Woe be vnto him which curseth where God curseth not Num. 23.8 As also indeed that blesseth where God blesseth not We desire you not to blesse vs in our evill but we vvarne you not to curse vs in our good vvhich indeed turneth vs not to any furtherance but to a great hinderance and stumbling block stopping vs from that syncerity vvhich els vve should dravve nearer vnto Blessed is he that iudgeth vvisely that is vvithout affection and partialitie even of him that is despised Better it is and more Christianlike even to offend in too much compassion and patience especially tovvardes so many hundreth thousands by vvhom vve knovv nought saue good in this poinct then to offend in too much rigor and severity and vniust anger Mat. 5.22 Hovvbeit this vvere not indeed to offend as hath ben above shevved And briefly in twoo vvords thus I conclude it farther that That faith and religion taught in the booke of Articles published 1562. maketh the people that beleeve and obey the same true Christians such as so living dying may be saved But our Church doeth so holde that faith Therefore they are true Christians The Proposition onely is doubted I had thought none so desperate as to deny it but lately I vnderstand you haue denyed it Hovvbeit for ansvver I referre you partly to that vvhich here hath bene said before especiallie to that vvhich is replyed to your Answer in the former Treatise which being well weighed I doubt not but all indifferent Christian mindes will acknowledge our publique Church assemblies in England to be true Christians Fran. Iohnson his Aunsvver YOu have now ten tymes reproched me and are not ashamed Whatsoever your self or others do think of your Churches estate God forbid that I should eyther iustify it or take away myne owne innocency in witnessing the truth against it Heare therefore and I will aunswer you once againe I will open my mouth for the truth against him that pleadeth for Baal The strength of the Reason standeth not as you ignorantlie suppose in the truth or falshood of the particulars you mention but in this that it is not so vvith choyse of Ministers in the Church as it is vvith choyse of parties in mariage For Infidels Idolaters godles persons c. may in that estate marry togeather but they are not in that estate capable of choosing and ioyning to a true Minister And therefore your Comparison doth not hold Yet the particulars do all of them availe much against you whatsoever you pretend to the contrary The first is directlie to the question For although now having seen my aunswer you speak of Christian people yet your comparison which was given me to aunswer spake at first of ignorant persons and those also such as might marry togeather Now you cannot deny but ignorant persons be they never so prophane and godles may marry one with another Yet have they not power in such case to chuse a Minister It is your self then that keep not the point but chop and chaunge the termes of your Argument as you think may best fit your turne And yet all this chaunging of your hew will avayle you nothing at all vnles you could prove 1. That your people in that Church-constitution are true Christians 2. That your Ministers so made and received are true Pastors But neither of these can you do For the first let the Reader see the former treatise where this point is purposelie handled And mynd here that your self confesse some of your Assemblies are all and wholy prophane godles persons Of which you say you speak not Yet tell vs whether you think such Assemblies be true Churches such people true Christians and their Ministers hauing like ordering of the Prelates and acceptance of the people true Pastors or not For the latter this is the treatise and place where you should prove it if you could But behold you do nothing lesse In the Comparison Pag 186. Nay even here you yeeld that your calling received from the Prelates is vnlawfull Yet this is the onelie maner of calling that your Church constitution appointeth That which you speak of your Assemlies not being all and wholy profane and godles persons is nothing to the purpose You might easilie have seen if you had mynded the words of my Reason that I sayd expresselie your Assemblies consist of all sorts of people that is some better some worse Yet seing the best among you remaine in confusion with the worst and all of you in bondage to Antichrist that even for this cause also you can not in that estate be deemed true Churches having power to chuse such Officers as Christ hath appointed for his Church And where you say whole companyes of Christians are not by such commixtures made vnholy prophane and godles it is wholy from the questioÌ„ The point is not
them be yet remayning in your worship Hierarchy confusion Canons Licences Dispensations Rev. 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Excommunications c. with ♣ which no man may have spirituall communion vnder payne of eternall wrath that if it be the will of God her Highnes may be his instrument to suppresse and abolish these also and to establish the whole truth of God according to his word And further that she may take to her owne Civill vses the Lordships and possessions of the Prelates and other Clergy as God hath foretold and appointed should be done with them Rev. 17.16 19.17.18 And as King Henry the eight her Maiestyes Father of famous memory did with the Abbats Monks Fryers Nunnes and with their possessions and revennewes Which happy worke by what Princes soever it be done as certaynly will come to passe for the Lord of hostes hath spoken it it will greatlie redound to the glory of God the honour of themselves the free passage of the Gospell the peace of the Church and benefit of the whole Cōmon wealth The Lord therefore hasten and accōplish it Yea true and strong is the Lord who hath spoken and will performe it Rev. 17. 18. 19. chap. This is our mynd which you desier to know concerning reformatiō commaunded and compelled by the Magistrate Where note withall that it is the work of God onelie to adde to his Church such as he will save And therefore that it is not in the power of Princes or anie Man whatsoever to perswade the conscience and make members of the Church but that this must be left to God alone who onelie can do it Act. 2.47 11.21 Gen. 9.27 1 Cor. 12.13 14.24.25 Zach. 8.23 Ier. 32.38.39.40 Princes may and ought within their Dominions to abolish all false worship and all false Ministeryes whatsoever and to establish the true worship and Ministery appointed by God in his word commaunding and compelling their subiects to come vnto and practise no other but this Yet must they leave it vnto God to perswade the conscience and to adde to his Church from tyme to tyme such as shal be saved But with you in these things you know it is quite contrary Thus then neyther the examples of the aforesayd Kings of Iudah are in your case fitlie alledged neyther is it of anie waight if all your people and Assemblies in the Land willinglie openly advisedly submitted to whatsoever was proclaymed at the beginning of her Highnes reygne Vnles you could prove that Religion worship Ministery c. then proclaymed and still vsed to be by God prescribed in his word Which still you take for graunted when it is the very thing which we denie and you should proue if possibly you could And what if here I should put you in mynd how you might more fitlie alledge for your case the keeping of the Statutes of Omry and the like Micah 6.16 But I will leave this for your next Reply And then also tell vs what truth it is you speak of that was proclaymed at the beginning of her Maiestyes raygne whereof the people had such aduizement notice as you pretend from November 17. to Midsomer following For the book of Articles * heretofore so much pressed by your self Pag. 3. c was so far frō being proclaymed then as it was not agreed vpon till the yeare 1562. Which was at least fower or five yeares after the tyme you speak of here Now to proceed you tell vs that no open professed Papists Atheists nor other Hereticks were then receyved into your communion c. But how can we beleev you when D. Whitgift your Archprelate of Canterbury a man of as great reckning and of more experience in your Church then Mr Iacob tels vs the cleane contrary yea and prints it too even then when he writeth in defence of your present estate viz †Whitg book Pag. 176. 178 639. 643. that now the Church is full of Papists Atheists Drunkerds whoremongers c. Even the Prelates themselves I perceive do in some things deale more syncerelie then you Mr Iacob and are nothing so shameles Yet I know that some others of your coat which seek reformation deale herein as plainelie as the Prelates and far more faithfullie then you For example they confesse and publish that you have ‡ Sermon on Rom. 12. swarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erroneous and hereticall Sectaryes the Family of love and such like Another spareth not to avouch more particularly ♣ State of the Church of England between Diot Tert. c. that some Doctors of the Arches be the same men they were in Queen Maryes tyme. Others also speaking of your Ecclesiasticall courts write thus ‡ Ad◠to the Parliament God deliver all Christians out of this Antichristian tyranny where the Iudges Advocates and Proctors for the most part are Papists c. Thus your owne men of all sorts beare witnes against you But to let their testimony alone who knoweth not that the whole Land being polluted with most Popish and wicked Idolatry in Q. Maryes dayes they were all straightway after without repentance or the word preached going before received into the body of your Church and constreyned to become members thereof Who with their seed vnto this day do so remayne and are commonlie called the Church of England Neither will that clause of open professed be anie starting whole for you as it may be you dreame All know well ynough it is no matter how open and professed they be so as they will be conformable to come to Church once a moneth and heare your Divine service book Did Mr W. Smith your great acquaintance never tell you Mr Wroth Iustice. how ‡ one of the Cōmissioners themselves when he was called before them said vnto him Come to Church and be a Divell if thou wilt That which you say of ignorant men received in a generall reformation if you meane of some having far lesse knowledge then others being also vnable eyther well to expresse their owne mynd or to defend the truth against an adversary I deny it not Otherwise know that all who are received members of the Church being of yeares are to be such as in their measure lesse or more have learned Christ and do willinglie submit to his Gospell having heard and knowen the grace of God therein Ephes 4.7.20.21 2 Cor. 9.13 Col. 1.5.6 Act. 2.41 17.3.4 Esa 44.5 Zac. 8.20.21.22.23 And so questionles it was in the time of Hezechiah c. For which see these Scriptures 2 Chron. 29.31 30.2.3.4.11.12.13 2 King 23.2.3 2 Chron. 15.15 Besides that the Iewes did long before Hezekiahs time vpō knowledge enter covenant with the Lord to have him to be their God and they to be his people Exod. 19.7.8 Deut. 29.10.11.12.13 For the notorious dissolute and wicked you plead that some were reclaymed all vndertook another professiō and a new appearāce of Christianity c. Which how false
later have seen before their eyes the mischief that followed vpō that declining which the other of former time neither did nor could Adde herevnto the great vnlikenes when they are compared together in their Offices Entrance Titles prerogatives Courts Canons Iurisdiction and other procedings And tell me why you left out Cyprian in your printed Book whō you named in your written copy for which cause I have now also noted his Name with the rest Is it so that you see alreadie how he is against you Assure your self Mr Iacob that so will the rest also be found lesse or more I alway except the Prelates of Rome whensoever due triall and comparison is made Which I neither need nor purpose here to stand vpon seing these things are purposely hādled and alreadie published by others well knowen and approved also of your selves as by Mr Beza against Saravia T. C. his 1. and 2. Reply The Demonstration c. I omit also that yours are become persecuters whereas the other were persecuted Therefore your sinne is far the greater And many other things I might alledge but it sufficeth vs and hereon we rest that your Prelacy and other Ministery Worship c. are none of Christs ordinances appointed in his word If you be other wise mynded prove it by the book of God Ioh. 17.17 Psa 119.105 Esa 8.20 You know that †it alone is the word of truth and ought to be vnto all the lāterne of our feet Hence forth therefore speak according to that word and seek not by the lesse sinnes of others to hide and nourish your owne far greater Otherwise remember and applie to your selves the judgement that is written Exod. 20.5 Ps 129.21 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 22 18.19 And note these things withall 1. First That here you speak of such as live and dy in your errors ignorantly Now what defence is this for your self Mr Iacob and for all the rest of your Church throughout the Land who do not onelie know these errors but have also taught professed and witnessed against them heretofore 2. Secondly that here you are glad to vse the same pretences as rusty weapons against the truth which were sometymes vsed by D. Whitgift and the Papists for defence of the Prelacy and found to be of no force at all 3. Thirdly that whatsoever you speak here in excuse of your conviction may be likewise alledged by the Papists and other Hereticks for defence of them selves viz that they are not all cōvicted sinne against their cōscience also that such and such points are not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one among them that many of them and not of the simplest hold their way to be the onely true and right course and almost all of them to be indifferent and lawfull very few and scarce any that see it to be meerly wicked and intolerable Yet these are the reasons and armour of proof you bring for defence of your Hierarchie and Church-estate And what should I speak of your manifold contradictions fearfull clauses notable vntruthes c. Your cōtradictions as when you graunt here Pag. 28. 61 This is your generall sinne and yet said before you held these to be Christs ordinances Your pretended excuse that you speak some things in your owne person some things in your Churches I have shewed before to be vayne and against your self Pag. 55. 56. 72. Another contradiction in that you professe the auncyent Bishops and yours have declyned viz from the truth and way of Christ or els tell vs in your next from what and yet plead as if your Church generally were eyther ignorant hereof or held your present governement to be the onely true and right kind or at least to be indifferent and lawfull c. For how I pray you can these stand together If you say your self know thus much but as for any others that know it they are very few and searse to be found these I take it are your owne words this is but a vaine conceit of your self and such as is still accompanied with folly There are no doubt a thousand to you who are but one that know these things aswell or better a great deale Yea I know manie of your Church my self who have taught and writtē far more soundly and godly of them then ever Mr Iacob did And if these had all held their peace yet your Book of common prayer as grosse as it is knoweth thus much ‡ In the Commination that in the Primitive Church there was a godly disclpline which it saith is much to be wished that it might be restored agayne The particular there mentioned I stand not vpon I note it onelie for this that you may see even by that book received among you generally how your Church neither is so ignorant of the estate of things in former tymes as you pretend neither thinketh your present government to be the onelie true kind c. Not to speak of your so manie and so publik suites to the Parliament to have it removed as being vnlawfull and Antichristian Neither of the many books printed with Priviledge avowching as much A third contradiction till you cleare it better note in this also that you acknowledge they in K. Edw. tyme were godly learned and yet insinuate withall as if they were litle better then tyme-servers Your fearfull clauses importing partlie a yeelding of the cause partly a seeking of starting holes and excuses for your sinne As when you say 1. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversity of sinnes 2. All sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ 3. This sinne of outward Church-orders is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience 4. There are sinnes wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved 5. No greater is now in our Bishops presently especially towching our Churches and Ministers too generally 6. If you say we are all convicted now it is false 7. The godly learned Protestants in King Edwards tyme were not vtterly ignorant of this poynt of reformation 8. The Iewes were not generally plainely convicted 9. Our Assemblyes are not all godles and profane Our sinne destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole Assemblyes c. As if your self thought it did in some Your notable vntruths also are many as when you alledge Mr Beza vpō Act. 15.20 as if he spake of such Iewes as did personally hate and persecute Christ where as he speaketh expressely of such as beleved in Christ but were withall zealous of the Law being not yet perswaded of the abolishment thereof Agayne when from him you would teach that they which did personally hate and persecute Christ yet were the true Church vntill the Temple and City were destroyed yea and saved though they repented it not Which is contrarie to these and many the like Scriptures Act. 2.40.47 and 13.45.46.50.51 and 19.8.9 1. Thes
2.14.15.16 Rev. 2.9 Another vntruth is that you say the sinne of your Bishops now is no greater then of the auncyent declining Bishops and them in K. Edwards tyme Whereas many wayes it is incomparably greater as I have shewed before Pag. 40. 41. 129. 133. 148. 162. 175. 177. 183. 203. Another is in that you say your sinne is no way fundamental The contrarie whereof see proved before Pag. 22. 73. 114. 147. And another when you charge me as if I held all among you to be godles and profane when I have alway thought and professed otherwise Yea even here I said your Church coÌ„sisteth of all sorts that is both good and bad better and worse some making coÌ„scieÌ„ce of their wayes according to the knowledg they have some not c. For which also see further before Pag. 7. 20. 21. 41. 78. 103. 168. 178. Finallie it is â—either vntrue also when you say this poynt towching the Hierarchy is not acknowledged in your Church even of ignorance in a thousaÌ„d to one Or if it be true it is a shame for you and all the Ministers of your Church who have not in this cleare light of the Gospell by the space of fourty yeares together made knowen vnto the people so great a point of Antichristianity as the Hierarchy is Which is the verie sinewes and strength of the Popes Religion As I feare wofull experience will teach you further if yet you do not see and feel it ynough But of this also I have spoken before in the Preface Section 6. Lo here the ornaments of your Reply and Defence of your estate The very naming whereof is sufficient to shew your folly and your Churches miscrie Yet least you should please your self in this course as also for the satisfying of such as desier further handling of these things I have spoken of them before more particularly As namely of sinnes fundamentall Pag. 22. 32. 44. 46. 51. 73. 114. 147. Of the Scriptures which here you alledge in the margent Pag. 51. and in the Preface Section 3. Of the Iewes Church Pag. 84. 161. 195. 197. in the Preface Section 5. Of the auncient Bishops Pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of them in K. Edwards dayes Mr Cranmer c. Pag. 8. 40. 41. 48. 49. 67. 77. 162. 182. Of your Churches estate and conviction Pag. 3. 7. 16. 27. 33. 42. 43. 53. 60. 61. 63 73. 78. 82. 94. 101. 103. 108. 120. 130. 131. 132. 135. 147. 155. 157. 171. 180. 188 194. 196. 200. c. Your caution against rash hasty iudging of any is very good and needfull We do together with you exhort all to beware of such dealing and to take heed they †iudge righteous iudgement as Christ hath commauÌ„ded And therefore that they be careful to search out and help forward the iudgment Ioh. 7.24 given by the Apostles and Prophets on the Whore of Babylon and all her Daughters Rev. 18.20.21 and 17.1.5.6.7 with Ier. 51 61-64 Neither let any think that this is to curse where God blesseth or to lay an hindrance and stumbling block before any but that it is in deed to reward Babylon as she hath rewarded vs and to beare witnes to the truth and syncerity of the Gospell Rev. 18.6 14.6.7.8 2 Thes 2.8 that it may the more be brought to light and received of the elect to eternall life To such we know Christ with all his ordinances is precious but in deed to them which be disobedient he is a stone to stumble at and a rock of offence even to them which stumble at the word being disobedient to the which thing they were also ordeined 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Take heed therefore you blesse not your selves in your disobedience of anie truth of Christ promising your selves peace though you walk according to the stubbernes of your owne hearts so adding drunkenes vnto thirst For such blessing God hath threatned to curse Deut. 29.19.20 Zach. 11.5.6 Malach. 2.2 For our selves we judge not any man It is the word of God that iudgeth which shall also judge in the last day Ioh. 12.48 By it therefore let every man trie and examine his wayes of what place or calling soever he be first for the worship he performeth vnto God and then for all the other actions of his life that he may so please God in this life as he may in the next be partaker of the glorie that shal be revealed Neither let anie be daunted with the reproches and afflictioÌ„s which accompanie the truth and witnesses thereof Even Christ himself the Prince of our salvation was consecrate through afflictions and he hath promised if we suffer with him we shall also raigne with him Heb. 2.10 Rev. 2.10 Rom. 8.17.18 2 Tim. 2.12 Therefore also we say with the Prophet as you do here and wish it might sound in the eares of all men as a trumpet Blessed is he that iudgeth wisely of the poore even of him that is despised c. Psal 41.1 To conclude your one word whereof you told vs a litle before is now become two words and all litle ynough For if your reason be good all me your self if a man might not after your example in two words conclude the Papists also to be true Christians thus That faith and religion taught in the Creeds commonly attributed to the Apostles the Nicene Councell Athanasius c. maketh the people that beleev and obey the same true Christians such as so living and dying may be saved But the Popish Church doth so hold that faith Therefore they are true Christians c. If your reason be good what will you say to this If you say they professe in word but do in deed both in their Church-constitutioÌ„ and practise denie it such also is your case Besides that the question is not whether anie among you may be saved by the truth you hold For we doubt not but eveÌ„ in the Popish Church God saveth his by the truth there held But the question is whether you or they can in your estate and Church-constitution be deemed by the word of God true Christians or true Churches such as none may separate from your worship and Ministery established among you And here I can tell you that even some of your selves have acknowledged and openly avowched your Churches case to be such Demonstration in the Preface as “ a man may be any thing among you but a sound Christian Yet I suppose you will not say they were desperate for saying so And if I be not deceived your self also have ben like mynded with them heretofore Sure I am you had need cleare these things very well and in anie case take heed you become not desperate therein Neither two nor three of your words will help the matter It is the word of God that must decide it between vs. Whatsoever you have replyed in the former Treatise I have there answered And now I leave it to all indifferent and Christian mynds to acknowledge your
publik Church asseblyes for such Christians as in that estate they are found to be by the word of God If by it either you or anie other can prove them to be true ones I have done If not then I wish you and all others to yeeld to the truth and no longer to strive against it Hitherto of the first Exception against your Comparison Chap. 3. The Second Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priest doth not celebrate or pronounce any marriage without the married first giue their consent But the Prelate make ministers without and before the peoples cōsent Therefore the Comparison holdeth not H. Iacob his Reply FIrst it is very vaine to make this any matter viz the peoples consenting either before or after the Prelats ordeyning For whether before or after it is in nature and value all one They in their ignorance having respect only to the Prelats act And if it were so that the Priest should sometymes marie a couple the Maide being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striving nor resisting and a while after shall willingly agree like Out of question there is now true wedlock betweene them Even so the case is betwixt the Church and the Minister 2. But what will you except here against those Pastors amongst vs that were first chosen by the people they first professing their consent and are after instituted and inducted by the Prelat Many are thus called amongst vs and the most have the peoples consent even together at their first inducting at least wise they have soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them even presently 3. Lastly in a word where you say the Prelats make Ministers without before the peoples consent Beza in Act. 14.23 Fenner against Bridges Pag. 148. We affirme that they make not the Pastor at all indeed and in truth but onely supposedly It is the Churches consent that maketh him truly whether before or after the Bishop that skilleth not If any thinke Imposition of hands to be simplie necessarie to the being of a Minister that is also an error and can not be proved Fr. Io. his Aunswer BEcause I see you need it Mr Iacob I will deale very liberallie with you I graunt that your peoples consenting whether before or after the Prelates ordeining is in nature and valew all one c. that is of no valew or force at all Whether you respect the Law of God which knoweth no such jugling of people and Prelates or the Law of your owne Church which appoynteth no such election by the people at all And thus too it is a very vayne thing for you to make this any matter viz our peoples consenting eyther before or after the Prelates ordeyning Yet remember that your Cōparison which I answered spake of people that had made choyse of a Minister before he came for ordination to the Prelate Therefore it was and is ynough against the Comparison to shew that the Priests can not celebrate mariage before the partyes consent ech to other Whereas the Prelates make Ministers both before and without the peoples consent yea and without their knowledge commonly It is vayne then in you to count such exception vayne I mynd also how deceitfully you passe by that clause without the peoples consent Therefore to discover your fraud and to see what better answer you can give in your next I will propound the Reason also thus The Priest doth not celebrate any mariage without the maryed first give their consent But the Prelates make Ministers without the peoples consent Therefore the Comparison holdeth not Your case of a Mayde being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striving nor resisting is meerly absurd and ridiculous Can it possibly be that one should both be meerlie enforced denying consent and yet not strive nor resist As soone may you make Fier and Water agree together as these two For to be enforced yea meerlie enforced must needs imply a striving or resisting against it Els what needed there or how should there be said to be anie forcing But you say if afterward she agree there is true wedlock True in deed if they both agree But then it is not by reason of anie thing done before which was sinfull altogether but by vertue of the present mutuall willing consent they having liberty and power to marrie together according to Gods ordinance But with your people and Assemblyes it is far otherwise seing you have not liberty or power in your estate to call a Minister according to the ordinance of Christ Which I have proved both in the first Reason before and in the rest hereafter following 2. To your demaund about Ministers first chosen by the people afore they are instituted by the Prelates I aunswer that if your people had power in your estate to chuse a Minister which they have not yet the receiving of institution and induction by the Prelates afterward being never ordeined by God were at least to set your thresholds by Gods thresholds that is your inventions by Gods ordinances Which were in very deed to commit abomination against the Lord and to defile his holy Name and you in so doing become so far from having him present with you as even by this meanes you set a wall between him and your selves Ezech. 43.8 And not so onely but do also rebell against the Lord and turne away from him in receiving an other Ministery for the administration of his holy things thē he by his word hath ordeined in his Church Ios 22.29 Let the Reader note here besides how you speak onelie of the institution and induction by the Prelates and closely passe over the Prelates first ordeining of them Priests and Deacōs Without which they are in your Church no Ministers at all neyther capable of anie benefice though the people should never so much make choyse of any Where you say most of your Ministers have the peoples consent at their first inducting or at least soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them even presently First I aunswer as before that your peoples consent in your estate is of no moment Secondly if this reason of yours be good then your dumbe Priests Non-residents and most Popish Ministers in the worst tymes and places are to be accounted true Pastors aswell as the best among you because vpon their inductiō the people submit to their Ministery and mainteyne them even presently For who knowes not that when once a Priest is presented by the Patrone and inducted by the Prelate to a benefice your people do and must joyne to his Ministery and for his maintenance give him their tithes c. will they nill they Adde herevnto that even the maintenance belonging to your Ministery is such as was never ordeyned by Christ and therefore neither to be received by the Ministers nor given by the people Which I prove thus 1. Your Ministrrs are mainteyned by Tithes which is Iewish and ceased with “
the Levitical Priesthood Or if you will Popish derived from the Iewes Heb. 7.12 which comes all to one end 2. Your maintenance is such as by it all maner Ministeryes once received in the Land might be mainteyned were they never so Popish or otherwise never so impious in anie respect 3 You are bound so to mainteyne the Ministers you have whatsoever they be and that also whether you will or not 4. On the contrarie the maner of maintenance now ordeined by Christ for his Ministers is such 2 Cor. 9.14 as belongeth but to them which preach the Gospell and must come from the people of love and duty in that behalf 1. Thes 5.13 Gal. 6.6 Rom. 15.27 1. Timoth. 5.17 1 Cor. 9.7 c. 3. Lastly you say in a word but a shrewd word that the Prelates make not the Pastors at all in deed and in truth but onely supposedly And now in your printed book for more certainty you affirme it with consent of others whom you note in the margent But for this point it needeth not For we yeeld it most willingly Yet note withall that thus you do both give the cause and condemne at once all your Ministery as vnlawfull such as may neither be received nor joyned vnto See it for plainenes sake in a Syllogisme thus Witnes your Articles Canons Iniunctions Statutes c. Your Law and Church admitteth no other Ministery as lawfull among you but that which is receyved from the Prelates But this say you is none at all in deed and in truth Therefore all the Ministery admitted amoÌ„g you by your Law Church is none at all in deed and in truth A very sound defence of your Ministerie such as all the Prelates and Priests in the Land may well thank you for with cap in hand At least wise if you could draw them to be thus mynded And here let me put you in mynd how once you wished vs to set downe nothing in answer vnto you but that which is the doctrine of our whole Church If your self have kept this rule it is well If not how will you aunswer it That which you have added concerning Imposition of hands I admit with these cautions 1. That it is not to be neglected where it may well be had Hebr. 6.2 Act. 6.6 and 13.3 2. That in Churches alreadie established it be done by the Eldership and where people first come into the order of Christ by the fittest among them being therevnto appointed by the rest of the Church 1 Tim. 4.14 Numb 8.10 And thus much of the second Exception Chap. 4. The third Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe people can not chuse their Minister vnles the Prelate do either before or after make him a Minister But a couple may chuse and take each other in marriage whether the Priest will or no. Therefore the Comparison holdeth not H. Iacob his Reply 1 VVE deny your saying the people can not chuse They can chuse They have power in Christ as being ChristiaÌ„s though they know not their right therein The ignorance of this simply doth not cut vs of from Christ nor from this holy priviledge no more theÌ„ the blind Papists have lost their right power of marrying together without a Priest because they are ignoraÌ„t of it 2. Againe where you say But a couple may chuse each other whether the Priest will marry them or no Marke That we speake of blind Papists that thinke that the Priest is the whole absolute and necessarie marriage maker If you say even such have right and power to marry though they be farre from knowing it and farther from practizing Then graunt the like in chusing a Minister to our Christians for so the Comparison importeth Els if you meane those words of others that be men of knowledge Then you fight with your shadow you touch not our question Fran. Iohnson his Answer YOu do still take for graunted that which is denyed viz that your people have power in Christ to chuse their Ministers c. I proved before that seing your people stand in AntichristiaÌ„ servitude to the Prelates their Canons Courts confusion c. they have not in that estate neither can have whiles they so remaine the liberty and power of Christ either to chuse them Ministers or to performe anie other action belonging to the Church of Christ And further that they can not in that estate by the word of God be approved true Christians For which see the former Treatise In that you graunt the peoples choyse to be an holy priviledge you condemne both your Church which rejecteth it and such of your people as seem to vse it whereas in your estate they do nothing els but profane it Why also do not such of you as know these things deliver everie man his soule from that slaverie wherein ye stand vnder the Prelates that so you might enioy and practise the priviledges and holy things of God as Christ hath given them to his Church 2. To that you pretend of such as be blynd and ignorant thinking thereby to help your self I answer that we speak of your people as now they stand in your Church-constitution For so you know the question is Now whether they be ignorant or whether they have knowledge it skilleth not for the matter in hand This we alledge that none at all of your people or assemblyes have in your estate the liberty and power which Christ hath given to his Church as the other haue for mariage So we have towched the question directly But in deed the fault is Mr Iacob Iren. adversus Valem lib. 1. cap. 1. that your Comparison and Arguments hold together like ropes of sand as “ Irenaeus said of the Valentinians Let the Reader note withall 1. How you match together and put as in an eaven ballance the blynd Papists and your Christians A worthy defence of your estate 2. How here you pretend to speak of such as be ignorant other where of Christians having knowledge of Christ feare of God faith c. Thus turning your self into so manie shapes and colours as a man can not tell where to have you or what to make of you Quo teneam vultus mutantem Protea nodo Chap 5. The fourth ReasoÌ„ or ExceptioÌ„ against Mr Iacobs CoÌ„parison Fran. Iohnson IF anie that by the word of God are not capable of marrying togeather as Brother and Sister c. do notwithstanding consent to take each other for man and wife yet are they not therefore lawfull man and wife So if a people and some man that by the word of God can not chuse take each other as Pastor and Church in their estate such as now is in this â—aâ—d do notwithstanding consent so to accept each other yet are they not therefore lawfull Pastor and Church H. Iacob his Reply THis is wholy presumed and from the Question also Like to the first Reason and hath the same answer as is made
to the first accusation there You reason against people not capable of a Pastor And we speake of true Christians which are alwayes capable You do ill therfore in comparing this action to mariage betwene brother and sister who indeed can not marry Happely you may likelyer compare it to a couple that have lived both of them wantonly Afterwards they marrie togeather and this marriage it selfe they vse not soberly nor temperatly Howbeit for all this I professe these two are truly man and wife notwithstanding Now even so our Churches and Ministers c. Fr. Ioh. his Answer KNowing the question Mr Iacob you might well see if you were not blynd that this is directly vnto it And so in deed it is like the first Reason that is it sheweth the folly of your Comparison and is such as you can not aunswer True it is that we speak of people not capable of a Pastor that is of yours in your Church-constitution And if you speak as you say you do of true Christians which are alwayes capable then speak you not of your people or Assemblyes in your estate And so it is your self that fâ—â—ht with your shadow and towch not the question but still presume that which you should prove viz that standing in Antichristian bondage to the Prelates and their procedings yet notwithstanding you are by the word of God to be judged true Christians having the liberty and power given by Christ to his Church whereof he is the head Till you prove this we must needs think that the comparing of your chusing a Minister in your estate to a brother and sister or such like that can not lawfully marry togeather c. is good and pertinent Your owne comparing of it to a couple that have lived wantonly and afterwards marry together yet vse not their mariage soberly c. descryeth that your self see the wicked and vnlawfull estate of your Ministers and people as now they stand howsoever you labour to hide and excuse it as much as you can And besides if you would describe your estate as it is in deed you should compare it to such as both had and do still live wantonlie and wickedly in adultery and vncleannes whom God will judge Let all such therefore among you as feare God delay no longer but with speed forsake your adulterous wayes and turne vnto the Lord that by his grace you may be “ maryed to him in righteousnes and judgement in mercie and compassion Hos 2 19.2â— and not still run a whoring after your owne inventions and abominations of the man of sinne whom the Lord will destroy Rev. 17 1-6 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Numb 15.39.40 Ier. 4.18 Chap. 6. The fift Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priests joyning of the parties doth not make them Man and wife at all but onely the parties mutuall consent But contrarily in the present ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ of England the Prelats ordinatioÌ„ maketh the Minister and not the peoples choyse at all H. Iacob his Reply THe second Proposition we here flatly deny It is answered in our last words against the 2. Reason Fr. Ioh. his Answer YOu have an hard forehead Mr Iacob that can flatly deny so cleare a truth But for proof thereof besides your Churches-constitution I cite your books of Articles CanoÌ„s IniunctioÌ„s Statutes togeather with the consent of your whole Church and your book of ordering Priests and Deacons c. All which are so many proofs of the second Proposition and witnesses of the truth which you shame not to deny Is it not your Churches expresse Law that no other be receyved for Ministers but such as are made Priests or Deacons by the Prelates Yea that every one must to this end have his Letters of Orders vnder the Prelates hand and seale that ordeined him Can anie among you though he have the consent of all your people be Parson or Vicar or as you speak one of your Pastors not having the Prelates ordination and institution On the contrarie having these of the Prelate is it not sufficient for him though all your people stand against him Yea must not all the people whether they will or not receive and joyne vnto his Ministery being by the Prelate so ordeined and instituted as aforesaid The truth hereof is so well knowen and yll practised through the whole land as it is straunge any man should have the face to deny it But what wil not Mr Iacob deny when he knoweth not what to aunswer and yet hath not an heart to yeeld to the truth It must needs be a weak and bad cause that can not otherwise be mainteined then by such impudent denyals Your Aunswer to the second Reason before is there taken away and proved to be both against your self and against the Law and constitution of your Church Mynd it better next tyme. Chap. 7. The Sixt Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF a woman consent to a man that is another womans husband they are not therefore Man and wife So if a people consent to a false Minister they are not therefore true Church and Minister H. Iacob his Reply THis is answered as before in the Fourth Reason It carrieth some likelyhood indeed and some reason against Pluralities but nothing any further Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer NEyther the fourth Reason nor this nor any other of them are yet answered Let others judge And now your self are driven to confesse that this hath both likelyhood and reason against your Pluralityes Which is in deed to yeeld vnto it For tell me if your Pluralitie-men have not as well as the rest among you both the some calling by the Prelates which your Church appointeth and like acceptance of your people who joyne vnto them and mainteine them as you alledged before Pag. 208. The ReasoÌ„ then hath waight not onely against your pluralists but against all your other Ministers too seing they have all of them one and the same false Ministery received from the Prelates and executed vnder them Vnto which you may adde that the Ministery of all among you is such as Christ never set in his Church whether you look at your Offices from the hyest Prelate to the lowest Priest or at your Entrance according to your Churches Canons and Book of ordinatioÌ„ or at your Ministration by your Book of common praier and other your Canons and Injunctions or finally at your maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. When you have well mynded these things you shall find this Argument reach a great deale further then to Pluralityes even to all the Ministers of your Church in your estate Make a tryal search the Testament of Christ throughout and if you can shew it to be otherwise If not give glorie to God and yeeld to the truth Chap. 8. The Seuenth Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS when a man and woman have consented each to other if the man do
and Ministery it is no vnmeet thing that you vse the weapons of Antichrist Which are chiefly two falsehood and violence Of the former whereof your book is full from end to end speaking lyes through hypocrisy And with the latter your Church which you would defend aboundeth as your violent courses against the truth will alway testify to your face howsoever you shame not to plead evē for this also For which see before Pag. 112.133.134 If you write agayne be better advised Rev. 14. 18. chap. Psal 84. Ier. 50. and 51. Chap. Or rather learne to lay your hand on your mouth and plead the cyuse of Antichrist no more But follow the Lambe whithersoever he goeth And give your self no rest vntill you appeare before God in Sion Forsake Babel Let Ierusalem come vp on your heart and help you to build the walles thereof though it be in a strait and troublous tyme. And this which I speak vnto you by the word of God I wish to be mynded of all that feare God and love the Lord Iesus He that hath eares to heare let him heare Math. 13.9 A Table of some particular things conteyned in this Book ANtichristian corruptions yet had in the Church of England Pag. 63. c. Antichrists of two sorts pag. 95. Of the Apocrypha books pag. 22. 60. The Chaldean and Spirituall Babylon compared together pag. 99. c. Of the Beasts mark Preface Section 3. Pag. 163. 189 Blasphemy in the professiō Ministratiō of the Church of Eng. p. 22. 60. 188. 189. Of the auncyent and late Bishops pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of the Name Brownists pag. 2. A true visible Church described pag. 14. 196. The true Church hath but one Lord-bishop the Lord Iesus Christ p. 163. 189. It is Christs ordinance that there be true offices of Ministery and a lawfull administration and to a faithfull people pag. 16. 19. 39. The Worship and Ministery of the Church of England is against the Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome of Christ pag. 33. c. Of the Church of England Pag. 1. 3. 11. 27. 122 126. 161. c. Her confusion pag. 16. 103. 122. 200. Conviction pag. 42. 53. 78. 108. 130. c. Book of Common prayer pag. 27. 33. 63. 86. 96. 120. c. Dispensatiōs and Licences Pag. 65. 73. False doctrines pag. 122. 157. c. Fundamentall errors pag. 22. 114. 147. Excommunication and Absolution Pag. 33. 65. Hierarchy and Ministery Pag. 2. 23. 27. 63. 120. 122. 188. c. Holy dayes pag. 33. 64. Idol-temples P. 65. 121. 126. Indifferent opinion of the Hierarchy pag. 94. 120. 121. Persecution pag. 66 108. 112. 133. 177. 178. 197. Profession pag. 21. 60. 120. 171. Speaking lyes in hypocrisy pag. 150. 151. Will-worship and superstition pag. 27. 33. 82. 86. 87. The faith of the Church of England abolisheth the Second commandement and perfection of the Scriptures pag. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth all outward governement of the Church to be vnwritren and vncertayne pag. 28. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth the inventions of Antichrist to be Christs ordinances if the Magistrate so please pag. 61. 69. 72. The Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. in the Church of Engl. appoynted by mens precepts pag. 82. 86 87. None can ioyne with any Chutch or Ministery of Engl. but they must needs partake with their Antichristian abominations pag. 88. 170. The estate of the Ministers and Church of Engl. compared with Corahs c. pag. 32. 53. 130. 138. Difference to be put between true Churches having corruptions and false Churches making show of Religion pag. 92. 133. 161. 195. Things verifyed of the members of a true Church may be applyed to a false Church and yet not iustify their estate pag. 83. Of the Ethiopian Churches pag. 94. Of the error of Christs descension into Hell pag. 115. 116. Of the Foundation in Christian Religion pag. 46. 51. Some dying in fundamentall errors yet saved pag. 44. 45. 545 Some holding no fundamentall errors yet condemned pag. 48. 146. The falsest Churches and greatest Hereticks hold much truth pag. 47. 104. 106. 113. 136. 137. The Heathens acknowledging and worshipping of the true God p. 123. 124. The Papists bring more show of Scripture for their grossest heresyes then Mr Iacob or any other do for the Hierarchy c. pag. 129. A notable false doctrine of Mr Iacobs wherein it seemeth he is alone p. 172. Three speciall things to be noted in Mr Iacobs Replyes pag. 9. How Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded pag. 12. Popish shifts vsed by Mr Iacob pag. 26. 30. 32. 128. 136. c. Idolatry and false worship of two sorts pag. 67. 80. Visible Idols in the Church and worship of England pag. 120. Of the Iewes Church Preface Section 4. 5. pag. 83. 84. 89. 195. 197. Of Imposition of hands pag. 208. 210. Of the forbidding of Mariage and Meats pag. 73. 129. 135. 137. 140. 143. 147. Of the Martyrs pag. 8. 29. 40. 44. 54. 67. 79. 182. How the Ministers of England are made ordered pag. 188. 189. The word and Sacraments administred and received in the Church of Engl. in and from a false Ministery pag. 16 64. The Oath ex officio pag. 63. Of such as live and dy Papists c. pag. 146 Of the word Prelate pag. 188. Seven Questions yet vnanswered pag. 164. Separation from the Church of England graunted in expresse words by them selves pag. 156. 157. 169. The Sacraments administred in the Church of England with many corruptions pag. 15. 17. 25. 33. 64. Of Sacramentall speaches pag. 117. 118. Of the Samaritans pag. 104. c. The Parable of the Tares pag. 158. 173. Testimonyes of the Prelates themselves against the Church of Engl. p. 16. 200. Testimonyes of the Reformists against it p. 16. 27. 39. 79. 86. 103. 129. 176. 200. Testimoyes of the Reformed Churches against it pag. 17. 176. Testimonyes of the Martyrs and of former tymes against it pag. 162. 163. 177. 180. 182. 183. The Testimonyes alledged out of Scripture for defence of the Church of England are also against it Preface Section 3. 4. 5. 6. pag. 51. 52. 195. Of Tithes and maintenance of the Ministery pag. 209. 210. The Word of God onely is to be our rule and light of our feet pag. 22. 30. 34. 203. The word and ordinances of Christ as playne for vs now as was for the Iewes vnder the Law Yea more playne pag. 128. The obiections of Discōtinuance of Antiquity of Ambiguity in expounding the word c. answered pag. 128. 129. How the Lord abhorreth in his worship the mixture of mans inventions with his word and ordinances pag. 61. 101. 209. The doctrine and worship of Divels pag. 121. 122. The Lotd accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances are observed though it be for his worship pag. 80. 117. 122. Princes and Magistrates ought to abolish all false worship Ministeryes and to mainteyne the true which God hath prescribed in his word p. 199. Though they do not yet ought all the people of God to forsake the false and cleave vnto the true Preface Section 4. 6. 7. pag. 43. 46. 51. 101. 148. 158. 163. 170. 180. 184. 196. c. ERRATA PAg. 6. lin 9. read thus the Assumption And note downe in the Margent Pag. 86. and 87. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is after a sort or in part Pag. 183. Mr Tindals testimony there alledged is in his works printed together pag. 176. in the Book called The obedience of a Christian man Pag. 197. lin 41. sinne as Pag. 200. lin 38. starting hole Pag. 204. lin 9. that they FINIS
the truth of God is with them become Yea and Nay so as they may seem to say any thing for defence of theyr Churches estate 5. And from whence proveth he that which here he speaketh of tvvo hy Priests at once c. Doth he shew it from the word of God No. But he saith the Historyes make mention of it So then from the Scriptures he can not bring proof for that he saith For indeed by them we fynd euen in the corruptest tymes but one at once to be by Priest Albeit that of old also there were two which were chief over all the rest the one being principall the other Second See for that of one hy Priest in such tymes these Scriptures Mat. 26.57.62.63.65 Mar. 14.53.60.61.63 Luk. 22.50.54 Ioh. 11.49 18.13.24 Act. 4.6 7.1 23.2 Heb. 5.1 8.3.4.5 And for the other poynt these 2 King 25.18 1 Chron. 24.2.3 2 Sam. 8.17 vvith Numb 3.32 4.16.18 Yea this is so cleare and certayne as for any thing written in the Scripture thereahout this man is driven himself when he looketh thither to confesse and confirme it too As here may be seen in Scriptures which himself hath noted downe 6. Why also doth he not name the Histories that mention these things together with the Persons time place and such like circumstances as might give light to the poynt in hand Is it because he would walk in the dark and hide the truth as much as he can Or is it for that he seeth if these particulars were mentioned there might yet more be answered concerning this matter 7. Finally what maner dealing is this when he knoweth that I have other were written of this very poynt yea and here alledgeth both the ♣ Ansvver to Mr H. Pa. 50 book and page yet not to aunswer any one of all the particulars which there I haue noted out of the Scripture towching this question To that Treatise therefore till it be aunswered â— may and do refer him in this behalf Next where he saith If the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through covetousnes it is not likely that the inferior offices remayned sound c. And It is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution vvere vvholy altered from the right institution c. First I wish the Reader to mynd his maner of reasoning A litle before he sayd he doubted not plainely to take avvay that vvhich vve obiect of theyr outvvard constitution Yet behold the yssue of his first and chiefest proof is all come to this It is not othervvise likely It is very likely c. Thus his playne demonstration if it fitted his turne yet is no other but a meer likelyhood and presumption And that also gathered from other writers not from the Scriptures Is not this theÌ„ think you as playne a taking away of our obiection as it is a sound defence of theyr Church-constitution Neyther barrell better herring But what now if by the Scriptures it be not onely likely but indeed certayne that it was otherwise with the Iewes then here he saith concerning theyr offices and outvvard constitution How hath he then plainely taken away our objection as he pretended Let him search therefore and he shall fynd that they were so farre from admitting any straung functions among them as they * Iohn 1 19-23 vrged Iohn the Baptist to shew warrant for his Ministery from the word of God And besides by theyr silence to Christs question about Iohns baptisme do plainely testify that ‡ Mat. 21.25 26. themselves judged no Ministery lawfull but that which is from heaven that is such onely as is of God not of Men. If here now we would vse his manner of reasoning how great likelyhoods might we justly alledge from these Scriptures to the contrary of that he sayth But to put the matter out of all doubt the Scripture witnesseth of Zachary Iohn Baptists father that he being then one of the Priests executed the Priests office and vvalked in in all the commandements ordinances of the Lord vvithout reproof Luk. 1.5.6.8.9 Which how could it possibly have ben if the offices and constitution of that Church had ben wholy altered as this man here pretendeth Note also that all the Priests then were of the tribe of Levi of the posterity of Aaron consecrated to their functions sitting in that seat which God by Moses had appointed for the Ministery and regiment of that Church Ioh. 1.19 Act. 4.6 Heb. 5.1.4 Mat. 23.2 vvith Deut. 33.4.8.10 Finally Christ himself giveth testimony to the lawfulnes of their Ministery and constitution when he said to the clensed Leper Go shevv thy self to the Priest and offer for thy clensing as Moses hath commaunded Luk. 5.14 By which is most playne that they had at that tyme both the true Ministery and ordinances which God by Moses had appoynted How false then must it needs be that this man saith their offices and outvvard constitution vveâ—e vvholy altered from the right institution But who is so bold aâ— blynd Bayard Of their true offices imported by sitting in Moses chayre I have * A treatise of the Man of England Pag. 54. 55. els where spoken and proved it by divers reasons and testimonyes out of the word of God To which D. B. can fynd no aunswer but yet is loth to yeeld to the truth Moses he sayth vvas a Magistrate What then Therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstood of somevvhat els But why so Doth he not know that Moses in that his governement of Israel even by the commaundement of God appoynted Aaron and his sonnes to the Priests office for the burning of incense before the Lord c. Wherevppon also when Corah and his company did afterward murmure aÌ„d presumed to take the Priests Office vpon them it is sayd they rose vp and gathered themselves together not onely against Aaron to whom it belonged but agaynst Moses also who from God had appoynted him and his sonnes therevnto Lev. 8. 9. chap. vvith Numb 16. 17. 18. chap. Note withall that Moses a litle before his death blessing the tribes of Israel when he had the heads of them assembled together spake thus of Levi turning his speach vnto God Let thy Thummim and thyne vrim be vvith thyne Holy one c. They shall teach Iacob thy judgements and Israel thy Lavv they shal put incense before thy face and the burnt offring vpon thyne altar c. Deut. 33.4.5.8.9.10.11 With which Scripture and speach of Moses if we compare that of Nehemiah where he speaketh of ♣ Neh. 9.3.4.5 c. the Levites stayre or hy seat and theyr standing vpon it vvhen they taught the Lavv c. And that of Christ where he sayd * Mat. 23.2.3 The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chayre observe therefore vvhatsoever they speak c. And that of Iohn where he sayth ‡ Ioh. 1.19.24 the Pharisees vvich vvere sent to Iohn Baptist about his Ministery vvere Priests
with the Articles IniuÌ„etioÌ„s Aduerticements and Caueates in that behalf prouided If any preach the word of God any further they are subiect to be sileÌ„ced banished and put to death That these things accord with the ordinaÌ„ce of Christ or with your owne description of a visible Church I suppose your self will not for shame affirme it Lastly in your description it is required That the Sacramentes be duely ministred according to the ordinance of Christ in all things that of necessity are requisite to the same Now by the ordinance of Christ in the administration of the Sacraments there are necessarily required 1. A lawfull Minister 2. A lawfull people 3. A lawfull administratioÌ„ according to the Testament of Christ In al which your practise is contrary to the ordinance of Christ and your owne description aforesayd Your Ministers all of them are either Prelates Priestes or Deacons which among you is a step to the Priesthood none of which Christ hath ordeyned in his Testament for the work of his Ministerie Your people are not separated from the world See Iohn 15.19 17.14 1â— but stand in confusion with it and in subiection to the Antichristian Prelates and Prelacie and therefore cannot be deemed a true Church of God and the people of Christ vnto whome in such estate the SacrameÌ„ts which are seales of the couenant of grace doe apperteine and may be administred 1 Iob. 4 â— 5 Act 2 40. and 19 9. Rev. 18.4 and 14.9 Finally your administration is according to the inventions and precepts of men with sâ—inted prayers exhortations Epistles and Gospels and besides these in Baptisme crossing on the forehead and questions to the infant in the Lords supper translating and vsing out of the Masse book other words theÌ„ the words of Christes institution and such like as may be seen at large in your book of common prayer which is picked and culled out of the Masse book full of abominations as * Admonition to the Parlament your selues haue confessed heretofore These things we haue ben forced thus to mention at large both because you twise demaund as if you knew not your selves wherein your practise is contrarie to that description aforesaid and because you blush not to affirme that all the ChristiaÌ„ world seeth and confesseth your practise to be agreable to your profession in that book Whereas the contrarie is most true Touching which what your selues haue heretofore written to the contrarie See in the Admonitions to the Parliament Replies of T. C. against D. Whitgist Demonstration of Discipline c. And what the reformed Churches professe to the contrarie see in the French Belgicke and Heluetian Churches in the Harmonie of confessions SeÌ„ct 10.11 Thus also appeareth what iust cause we had to put you to proue your assemblies to be such as your selues describe visible Churches to bee Which seeing you haue not yet done and seeing your practise is contrary to your profession as now at your request we haue shewed in the particulars aforesayd If you still be minded as before we do also still aske where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in your owne description of a visible Church Your similitude of a Landlord and Tenaunt is against your selues so worthy and Clerklike is your Reply If any haue vsurped or otherwise made a false claime never so long to a peece of land or other possession may they not iustly be called vpoÌ„ to shew their title and bring forth their euidence Let the Iudges giue sentence If you deny your claime to be such shew your euidence from the Apostles writings Let vs froÌ„ thence see your evidence for the offices of Archbs Lord bs Archdeacons Priests ParsoÌ„s Vicars c. For your entrance into these offices according to your Canons and book of ordering Priests c. For your administration by your scinted imposed Leiturgy and by your Popish Canons Officers proceedings c. For your maintenance by Tythes Chrisomes Offerings c. For your confused communion of all sortes of people though never so wicked in the body of your Church c. Let vs I say see evidence for these from the Apostles writings if you denie your claime to be such as we haue noted Otherwise if you speake not according to this word ‡ Esay 8. â—â— it is because there is no light in you neither any right to that you challendge Where you say vve held part of your possessioÌ„ vvith you hertofore If you meane that we with you receiued the beastes mark and drunke of the cup of Babels abominations we deny it not but acknowledg Gods mercy that passing ouer our sinnes hath giuen vs grace and strength “ Rev 18.4 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Act. 2.40 at his coÌ„maundement to forsake that way of Antichrist and to come out of that spirituall Babylon to the saluation of our soules Which mercy we wish also to you that being saued from that froward generation you may become the sonnes and daughters of the Lord almighty Touching your Article Preaching Sacraments MinistratioÌ„ c Ynough is said before Onely where you say you see not your selues vvherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary It is too impudent vntruth as your ‡ AdmonitioÌ„ to the Parlament T. C. his replies in defeÌ„ce thereof DemoÌ„stration of discipline Defence of Ecclesiasticall discipline c. former writings doe and will alwaies testifie to your face which we will not stand here to relate That shall suffice which we haue touched before which till it be aunswered the Exception hath both reason and weight in it whatsoever you doe or can pretend to the contrary H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 1. Excep HEre is much adoe to no purpose You obserue 4. pointes in our Article omitted by me wherein our practise is contrarie to our profession First our Article requireth a visible Church to be an assemblie of faithfull men But our ossemblies say you are not so This is false they are so you shall neuer proue in vs the contrary more then appeareth was in the Church of the Iewes both Auncient and in the time of Christ and yet they than were the true Church As I haue elswhere in this book sufficiently proued and shewed against you That which you bring of D. VVhitgift and other writers amongst vs of the prophanesse of many in our assemblies you depraue their meaninges vtterly for though they graunt very many such to be amongst vs yet they say not that all our assemblies are such nor our whole assemblies Neither denie they our assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be separated from Nay the contrary do they euen that onely they ought to be reformed Therefore you too grosly abuse them Secondly The Article requireth the pure word of God to be preached But say you the Apocrypha books and reading of Homilies and other errors are allowed in our practise Yea surely and in our profession too as your self obserueth
have vs beleev that Magik lyes blasphemy contradiction to the Scriptures agree with the Gospell well ynough or that they destroy not true Christianitie I meane so as I expressed in my former aunswer that is so as the people and Churches thus professing and practising cannot by the word of God be iudged in that estate true Christians or true constituted Churches of Christ And more yet when withall there be found manie abominations directly Antichristian yea and blasphemous as I have noted of your Hierarchy worship c. Will you make Christ and Antichrist accord togeather It * 2 Cor. 6.14 cannot be If you will not receive it then prove by Gods word either that these things are not directly Antichristian nor blasphemous or that being so yet they do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie so as before is declared For Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. is aunswered alreadie Pag. 8. 40. The grosse absurdity of your comparison of a man with a woodden leg the like referred to your estate I have showed in the end of my former aunswer Against which if you can say any thing let vs have it in your next Reply And remember withall that the body of your Church besides the shamefull confusion it standeth in hath a number of moÌ„strous and deformed heads on whose foreheads are written †Rev. 17.8 with 14.11 names of blasphemy viz your Archbishops Lordbishops Priests c. Which by the confession of the best among you were never borne in Sion but in Babylon by descent the sonnes of Anak and Nimrod mightie hunters â—f Gods people as their estate and practise in all ages even vnto this day doth testifie These and other abominations heretofore mentioned you would still conceale and in steed thereof take for graunted that your Church in her constitution is as a body which hath the life being of a man not of a beast Now this you know we deny and you should prove But that you let alone as being all to hard And I perceive alreadie that rather then you will do it you will leave your woodden legg to shift for it self as you have left your Aethiopians teeth and Swannes bill Let the Reader judge whether of vs it is that goeth about to refute onely with words with bare Yea Nay and no more And hitherto of the three Excepttons gathered out of your owne doctrine against the Aâ—sumption of your maine Argument Now follow some other Reasons brought against the same with your Replies and my Aunswers therevnto Chap. 7. The first Reason against Mr. Iacobs former Assumption Fr. Iohnson THat which ioyneth Christ and Antichrist togeather can not make a true Christian 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 with Ezech. 43.8 and 2 Kings 17.33.34.40.41 But that doth the whole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by law in EnglaÌ„d As may be seen 1. By the Book alledged coÌ„paring the 35. and 36. Articles with the rest 2. By your profession to be seen likewise in your other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Advertisements c. 3. By your practise as witnesseth your Ministery Leitourgy and Church-gouernement even to this day Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the first Reason THis your first Reason is thus That which ioyneth Christ and Antichrist togeather cannot make a true Christian But that doth our Booke c. Ergo. I say you must mende your vnproper speach that Christ and Antichrist is there ioyned togeather you meane Christ and some outvvard ceremonies and orders of Antichrist then so speake and say not Christ and Antichrist simply Which things yet we thinke to be Christs owne as wee ‡ Pag. 28.35 shewed in the Second Exception before Therefore this reason is aunsvvered as the last Exception before The Svvanne is blacke of his bill Ergo the Svvan is blacke and my brother hath a vvodden legge Therefore my brother is a vvodden man So here this booke ioyneth Christ and some orders of Antichrist Therefore it ioyneth Christ and Antichrist togeather vvhich are most fonde conclusions Furthermore the Scriptures alleadged 2 Cor. 6. Ezek. 43. 2 Kings 17. are vvholy mismatched the ioyning there forbidden is vnto such idolatrie as can not stande by any meanes vvith Christian faith and breaketh most directly the First commaundement Our transgression your selves doe iudge to be but against the Second and such as hath stood and may stand togeather vvith true faith as in M. Cranmer c. * Namely the Idolaters in these places spoken of They did not so much as professe the vvritten Lavv to be their rule neither for outvvard orders nor their invvard doctrines of faith But your selves knovv vve professe and practise that namely so as is shevved before in the ‡ Pag. 28.35 Seconde Exception Therefore to apply those Scriptures in this vnto vs is your great sinne euen against the third Commaundement vwhich is your common custome as all doe see and pittie viz. To take the name of God in vaine by mifusing his worde Fr. Iohson his aunsvver to Mr. Iacobs 1. Replie to the 1. Reason YOur answer is first concerning the Proposition then concerning the Assumption For the PropositioÌ„ you say the speach is vnproper that Christ Antichrist is among you ioyned togeather Then you take vpon you to expound our meaning to be thus Christ and some outvvard ceremonies and orders of Antichrist To this we answer First that the speach is fit and proper Secondly that it is meete that we not you expound our owne meaning Which togeather with the proprietie of the speach will now appear in that which followeth Concerning the AssumptioÌ„ first you say the things amoÌ„g you which we charge to be of Antichrist you think to be Christs ovvne for proof whereof you refer vs to your Reply to the Second exception before whither also we refer your self and the Reader for answer againe Then forgetting your self you grauÌ„t that in deed they be orders of Anticrist yet that they are but as the blacknes of the Swannes bill to the rest of the body So by you owne confession they are of Antichrist and therefore not Christes owne as †Pag. 28. before you said and laboured to prooue Thus at once you both contradict your self and ouerthrow that which you answered before to the Second exception This were sufficient to manifest your deceitfull and euill dealing But that it may more fullie appeare specially seing you would dazell the peoples eyes with these mincing wordes of some outvvard ceremonies orders of Antichrist comparing them with the blacknes of the Swans bill as if they were but a few and of small moment therefore will wee reckon vp some of them for it were infinite to nuÌ„ber them all By which the Reader may better see and iudge both of the sleightnes of your aunswer and of the black constitution of your Church Sory we are that we should thus trouble the Reader or our selues specially considering that alreadie we haue mentioned diuers
of them But seeing we are here constreyned vnto it by your slie and colourable answer therefore can we not but doe it for the clearer manifestation of the trueth and better discouering of your deceipt In which respects we entreat the Reader to take in good part and duely to weigh the rehearsall following Antichristian abominations yet reteyned in England 1. The coÌ„fusion of all sorts of people in the body of the Church even the most profane and their seed being members thereof 2. The retaining and vsing in their publique worship the Apocrypha books which have in theÌ„ much error vntruth blasphemie Magick contradiction to the Canonicall Scriptures 3. Their stinted prayers and Leiturgie taken out of the Masse Book with the same order of Psalmes Lessons Collects Pater nosters Epistles Gospels Versicles Respondes c. 4. The forbidding of Marriage in Lent Advent Ember daies Rogation week c. Which the Apostle calleth a Doctrine of divels 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 5. Forbidding of meats as of flesh to be eateÌ„ in Lent Ember daies Saints Evens Frydayes and Saturdayes throughout the yeare Another doctrine of divels noted in the scripture aforesaid 1 Tim. 4.1.3 6. The oath ex officio in the Ecclesiasticall courts making men sweare to accuse themselves 7. Their Pontificall or booke of consecrating Bishops and of ordeining Priests and Deacons taken out of the Popes Pontifical Antichrist corruptions yet had in the Church of England 8. Their intolerable abuse of the word of God therein 9. Their making and being made Priests with blasphemie the Prelates saying to everie one of them whom they make Priests Receiue the holy Ghost vvhose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven c. And they that are made Priests then humbly kneeling vpon their knees at the Prelates feet 10. Their confounding of civil and Ecclesiastical offices and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall persons 11. The offices callings of Archbishops 12. Lord-Bishops 13. Suffraganes 14. Priests 15. Half Priestes or Deacons as they call them 16. Subdeacons 17. Archdeacons 18. Parsons 19. Vicars 20. Curates 21. Vagrant and Mercenary Preachers 22. Church-wardens 23. Chauncellors to the Prelates 24. Deanes 25. Subdeanes 26. Prebendaries 27. Canons and Peticanons 28. Chaunters and Virgerers 29. Epistlers and Gosplers 30. Queristers men and boyes 31. Organ-players and blowers 32. Clerks and Sertous 33. Chapleines and House-priests 34. Doctors of Divinitie 35. Bachelours of Diuinitie 36. Doctors of the Arches 37. Proctours in the Prelates courtes 38. Commissaries 39. Officials 40. Registers 41. Summoners with the rest of that Antichristian and viperous generation 42. Their Ministration of the Word Sacraments Church-governement by vertue of the officer aforesaid 43. The titles of Primate Metropolitane Lords grace Lordship c. ascribed to the Prelates 44. The inferior Prelates swearing obedience to the MetropolitaÌ„ Seas of Canterbury and York 45. The inferiour Ministers wheÌ„ they enter into the Ministerie promising obedience to the Prelates their Ordinaries and wheÌ„ they are inducted to Benefices confirming it with their oath of Canonicall obedience 46. The preseÌ„tatioÌ„ of the Priests and Deacons to the Prelate by the Archdeacon when they are made Ministers 47. Their receiving of Orders at the hands of the Prelates or their Suffraganes 48. The Prelates Confirmation or Bishoping of childreÌ„ to assure them of Gods favour by a signe of mans devising Which is to malte a new Sacrament 49. The Crosse in Baptisme of like nature 50. The hallowed Font. 51. Questions at Baptisme to the infants that can neyther speak nor vnderstand 52. Godfathers Godmothers Their promising that the child doth beleev forsake the Divell and all his workes c. 53. Womens baptising of childreÌ„ Which mainteyneth that heresy That the Children are damned which dy vnbaptised 54. Their houssing of the sicke ministring the Communion to one alone 55. Their giuing it for two pence to all commers 56. Their ministering of it not with the words of Christs institution but with other taken out of the Popes Portuis 57. The receiving of it kneeling Which teacheth still to make it an Idoll and nourisheth that popish heresy of worshipping it receiving their maker c. 58. The King in mariage making it a SacrameÌ„tall signe mariage an Ecclesiasticall action thereby nourishing the Popish heresy that Matrimony is a Sacrament 59. Their Churching or purifying of women Which sauoreth of Iudaisme 60. The standing at the Gospell reading The putting of the cap and making a legge when the word Iesus is read 61. Their Saints Angels and Apostles dayes With their fasts and prescript service 62. The Gang-week praying then over the corne and grasse c. 63. Their praying over the dead at buriall So nourishing the Popish error of prayer for the dead 64. Buriall and the solemnizatioÌ„ of mariage c. made part of the Ministers duty 65. Their absolving the dead dying excommunicate before they can have as they call it Christian-buriall 66. The ring of peales at burials 67. Beadmen at burials and hyred Mourners in mourning apparell 68. The hanging of Churches and heerses with black to help forward theyr popish show off mourning at burials 69. The Idol Temples retayned vsed for the worship of God 70. The popish vestments as Rotchet Square-cappe Tippet Sâ—rplus in Parish-Churches and Coap in Cathedrall 71. The visitations of theyr Lord-Bishops and Archdeacons 72. The Court of Facultyes From wâ—eace are had dispensations Licences Tolerations c. 73 Dispensations to eat flesh at theyr tymes forbidden Which dispeÌ„satioÌ„s also haue this clause sana conscientia that is with a safe conscience plainely shewing that they make it a matter of conscience 74. DispeÌ„satioÌ„s likewise to marty in theyr tymes forbidden 75. Licences from the Prelates to marry in places exempt By meanes of which dispensations aÌ„d Licences is mainteyned that wicked practise that many are maryed without their Parents knowledge or consent Yea many ofteÌ„ stollen froÌ„ theyr frends and so marryed 76. Dispensations for boyes and ignorant fooles to haue Benefices and charge of soules 77. Dispensations for Non-residents 78. And plurality of benefices As the having of two three fower or mo even tot quot as many as a man will haue and can get 79. Patronages of and presentations to Benefices with buying and selling of advowsons 80. Theyr Iustitutions Inductions Prories c. 81. The Prelates Chauncelours CoÌ„missaryes Officials courts c. 82. Their power to excommunicate alone and likewise to absolve 83. Theyr Penance in a white sheet 84. Theyr commutation of Penance and absolving one man for another 85. Theyr Suspensions Deprivations Degradations c. 86. The Prelates Lordly dominion revenewes and retinew 87. The Priests maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. 88. The Popes accursed Canon Law 89. And the Prelates like Articles Canons Injunctions c. from tyme to tyme newly devised and published for the Lawes ruling of theyr Church according vnto them 90. The Church-wardens oath to present to the Prelates and theyr Courts all
erected visible Idols 1 Kin. 12.28 and very filthy ones even calves and brute beasts The same you might alledge of the Israelites with Aaron Exod. 32.4 whose sinne notwithstanding was directlie against the Second commandement as you confesse yours also is Besides Mr Iacob have not you and your Church too your visible Idols What els I pray you are your Service book your books of Canons and Homilies your Book of ordering Priests and Prelates taken out of the Popes pontificall your Idoll-shepheards Zach. 11.17 even the Prelates and Priests themselves such as to whom for any sound knowledge they have in themselves or good instruction they give or receive of others may fitly be applied that saying of the Prophet concerning Idols They have a mouth and speak not they have eyes and see not Psal 115.5.6 they have eares and heare not c. Where in the next place to lessen your sinne in respect of Ieroboās you say you professe your Ecclesiasticall orders to be but indifferent things for order and comelines onely how absurd againe and shameles is your pretence Do you in deed professe that your Book of common prayer with the other aforsaid are but indifferēt things for order and comelines only If so then are they not the true worship and service of God commāded in his word to be observed of his Church For that is not an indifferent thing but straitlie enjoined to be kept without spot or chaunge vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Exod. 20.4.5.6 1 Tim. 6.13.14 Col. 2.8.22.23 Rev. 22.18.19 Againe do you professe the confusion of all maner people in the body of your Church to be an indifferent thing for order and comelines onely If so then you might aswell tell vs you professe darkenes to be light disorder and confusion to be order and comelines c. Or do you professe that your Archbishops and other Prelates and Priests with their offices and callings taken out of the cup of Babylon your forbidding of meats and mariage called by the Apostle doctrines of Divels your retaining the Apocrypha Books in your publik worship Pag 63. c which have many lyes and great blasphemy in them Do you I say professe that these with the rest of your abominations ‡ before rehearsed are but indifferent things onely for order and comelines And is this in deed the profession of your generall State as ‡ here you note in the margent Then sure you are not far behind Ieroboam Pag. 110. if not far worse in some respects And by this it is evident to note it by the way that your generall State is conuinced of great impietie inasmuch as howsoever it stood for the controversy otherwise yet none can be so grosse as to deny but thus far you are convinced that these are not indifferent things c. You had need also look well about you what to aunswer for speaking in such maner of your generall State Now for Ieroboam what will you say if he also held this as the chief and mayne thing ♣ that the true God who is infinite and every where present be worshipped but whether at Ierusalem or at Dan Ioseph Antiq Iud. lib. 8. cap. 3. whether in Salomons Temple or at the Calves which he had now made whether by the Levites or by others consecrated to that service c. that these and the like he accounted and vsed as indifferent things as might seem best to serve for the opportunity of their dwelling for that estate c. See Iosephus Antiquityes if he do not testify thus much concerning him affirming further that by these meanes he deceyved the people and drew them from the true worship of God which in the end was the cause of their vtter ruine Lo here the fruit and yssue of such pretences Further you alledge 2 Chron. 11.15 Where Ieroboam is said to appoint Priests for the high places and for Divels and for the Calves he had made So have you also appointed Priests such as God never ordeined and that for your high places and Calves that is for your Idols Temples and Service the places and maner of your publik worship to this day Of which three points viz your Priesthood Idoll-temples A treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England and false worship I have written in another treatise to which I refer you Where it is said Ieroboā appointed Priests for Divels you are to know if already you do not that this is spoken mystically in respect of Gods account and as it was in deed not that Ieroboam and the people did so think and esteem it themselves And that you may have lesse preiudice of this which I say heare it of Peter Martyr who writeth thus of it Ieroboam and his complices said they worshipped not the Calves but Iehovah in that figure visible signe but the Scripture in the Chronicles witnesseth their imagination to be frustrate because in deed they did that service not to Iehovah but to Divels P. M. Lo. com p. 1130. Epist ad Eccles peregrin Lond. I will also help you to vnderstand this point by a like example to which I suppose you will yeeld The Papists in Gods account are worshippers of Divels Rev. 9.20 Yet in their owne judgement they do not so but pretend to worship God himself Even so it was with Ieroboam Further for the more clearing of this matter see what it is in deed thus to worship Divels And heare it of Mr Iunius whose judgement I know in this case you will judge lesse partiall He in his notes vpon Lev. 17.7 saith thus Men sacrifice to Divels if they sacrifice eyther in other place or after other rite and maner then the Lord hath prescribed See Deut. 32.17 1 Cor. 10.20 And this he sheweth was the sinne of the Iewes both in Egypt and in the wildernes first by Exod. 32. chapter then by ‡ Lev. 17.7 this verse where the word hereafter or no more is vsed and lastly by Stephens testimony Act. 7.42 Ieroboam then worshipped Divels not in his owne purpose and judgement but in Gods account because his worship of God was in other place and after other maner then the Lord had apppointed Now seing you graunt this here to be true of Ieroboam how will you denie it either for the Papists from whom you have borrowed your worship or for your selves the children of their fornications And that you may see it is a thing needfull to be mynded in your Church-constitution note for your selves that * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 the erroneous doctrines of Antichrist are by the Lord accounted and in the Scripture called doctrines of Divels †Rev. 9.20 the worship of Antichrist the worship of Divels ♣ Rev. 16.13.14 the Ministers of Antichrist the spirits of Divels ‡ Rev. 18.2 the confusion of all prophane people and abomination in the body of Antichrists Church and religion the habitation of Divels c.
Either therefore you must approve your Church-constitution to be such as it reteineth not the erroneous doctrines worship Ministery and confusion of people brought in by Antichrist but the truth way of Christ prescribed to his Church or els you see by evidence of Scripture how like your case is to Ieroboams also in this respect Not that you do so esteem it any more then he did but that God doth so account of you and of all such Churches whose constitution is to worship him otherwise then himself hath ordeined howsoever your devices may resēble his ordinances Pag. 105. as * you confesse Ieroboams also did 1 King 12.32 33. Amos. 4.4.5 5.21.22 23. So you confesse ynough against your self Next you alledge the examples of Ahab Ahaziah the Iewes vnder Ahaz Manasses and Amon to whom the Israelites were like in Idolatry also the Ten tribes and finally the Samaritans themselves These examples and the Scriptures cited about them speak of Baall and like Idols and their Altars houses Priests c. Now I have proved ‡ before that in and by these Idols and their appurtenances Pag. 117. c. they intended the worship of the Lord God himself And yet further by these testimonyes of Scripture it is most plaine viz. Hos 2 16. Micah 6.6.7 1 King 21.28.29 and 22.12.24 Exod. 32.1.4.5 Iudg. 17.2.3.5.13 and 18.5.6.17.18.19.20 Amos. 5 21.22.23 Yea in the Scriptures which ‡ here your self alledge they are said to worship after the fashion of the Heathen though it was to the true God because they sacrificed in their hy places Pag. 110. or on the Altars and before the Idols eyther of the Heathen or their owne set vp for the representation and service of God Finally none of these Scriptures do shew that the Samaritans did so worship the Idols of the Heathen as accounting them to be in deed Gods aswell as the God of Israell Which is your assertion So it is your self Mr Iacob that are cleane gone Your perventing of my words I omit But now what will you say if the case of the very Pagans Idolatry be not so cleare as you take it for the worshipping of the Idols themselves and esteeming them to be so many severall Gods Augustine saith the Pagan Doctors defend their many Gods to be but * August de Civit. Dei lib. 4. cap. 11. one and the same Iupiter that is one God of whom the ♣ Poet sayth He is throughout all the earth the sea and the heaven Virgil. 4. Geo Againe he testifyes that they themselves did thus aunswer him ‡ Aug. Ibid. cap. 24. What Should we beleev that our forefathers were so exceding foolish as to think Bacchus Ceres Pan and the like were Gods Nay they beleeved onely one God whose name because they knew not therefore did they honour his gifts functios vnder divers names c. Plato a Pagan himself in one of his Epistles saith thus Hereby you shall know whether I write in good earnest Plato Epist. 13. ad Dion or not If in earnest I begin my letters with the onely one God If otherwise with many Yea Phocylides an heathen Poet could say Phocylides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There is but onely one God wise powerfull and very happy And Epictetus a Stoick thus It is before all things to be learned that there is but one God that he ruleth all things Epictetus apud Arriā that he provideth for all that whatsoever we do speak or think nothing can be hid from him that we should worship him as our Creator and Father and the onely authour of our felicity And that if vve call vpon God aright vvee shal be advertised of the best things by his Angels at his cōmaundement Calvin also saith the prophane men thought not to dravv the onely God frō his heavenly throne vvhen they feyned to themselves many Gods Calv. in Hos 2.17 but reserving a supreme Godhead over all they vvould have Patrones vvhom to vse for obteyning grace and favour of the most high God And by Plato himself it appeareth they took the Angels for such whom he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Plato in Epinom e◠in Cratylo Spirits and therefore thought they were to be honoured 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as being the meanes of “ or prayse-worthy prosperous intercession or proceding Whom therefore they vsed as helps for better accesse vnto God as now do the Papists their many intercessors who yet hold there is but one God Thus they thought of God and of his gifts works Angels c. Then for the Pagans vse of their Idols or Images Calvin writing against such men as in excuse of their Idolatry pretend Calv. Inst. lib 1. ca. 11. se 9. 1◠they account not the Images to be Gods sheweth that neither did the Ievves think their Calfe to be God nor the Heathen their Images but that as the Papists novv so the Heathen and Ievves then vvere persvvaded they vvorshipped God in and by those Images Thus writeth Calvin Then which what can be more full and pregnant against you And Plutarch recordeth that Numa Pompilius a Pagan forbad the Romanes to think that Gods Image had eyther the likenes of Man or the forme of any creature Plutar. in vita Numae Neither vvas there before vvith them saith he any Image or representation of God eyther painted or fayned but in the first hundred and seventy yeares they built in deed Temples and erected holy Chappels but consecrated no Image at all Even as if it vvere detestable to resemble better things to vvorse and because God can not othervvise be perceived but in the mynd and vnderstāding And yet further Plutarch also in an other place hath to this effect that the Sunne Plutar. de Isid et Osyrid the Moone the Heaven c. are not to be vvorshipped that they in deed are but looking glasses vvherein may be seen the vvorkmanship of God that adorneth the vvhole vvorld And that the vvorld is no other thing but his Temple Yea moreover towching both these points now treated of that the severall nations have not their severall Gods so as vve should think the Grecians have theirs the Barbarians theirs the Northerne people theirs the Southerne theirs But like as the Sunne the Moone the Heaven the Earth the Sea are common to all yet are called by severall names of severall people so likevvise that one divine Spirit which framed this whole world vvhose providence is over it all yet hath severall honours and severall names attributed vnto him according to the lawes of several natiōs c. Behold then what the Pagans themselves do testify Albeit I neither doubt nor deny but some among them speciallie in later tymes were far more grosse then others even as now we may see in the Papists a great difference among themselves both for their judgement and practise in their Idolatry Yet notwithstanding by the testimonies aforsaid you
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs