non una exors quaedam iminens detur potestas tot efficerentur in Ecclesia schismata quot Sacerdotes Wherefore I would faine find out that which the Scripture bids me hear audi Ecclesiam I would faine referre my self to that to which the Scripture commands me to appeale and tells me that if I do not I shall be a heathen and a Publican dic Ecclesiae which Church Saint Paul in his first Epistle calls the pillar and foundation of Truth of which the Propbet Ezekiel saith I will place my Sanctification in the midst of her for ever and the Prophet Esay that the Lord would never forsake her in whose light the people shall walke and Kings in the brightness of her Orient Against which our Saviour saith The gates of Hell shall not pervaile with whom our Saviour saith he would be alwayes unto the end of the world And from whom the Spirit of Truth should never depart For although the Psalmist tells us that the word of the Lord is clear inlightning the eyes yet the same Prophet said to God Enlighten mine eyes that I may see the marveils of thy Law And Saint John tells us that the book of God had seven Seales and it was not every one that was thought worthy to open it onely the lambe The Disciples had been ignorant if Jesus had not opened the Scriptures unto them The Eunuch could not understood them without an Interpreter and Saint Peter tels us that the Scripture is not of private Interpretation and that in his brother Pauls epistles there are many things hard to be understood which ignorant and light-headed-men wrest to their own perdition Wherefore though as Saint Chrysostom saith Omnia clara sunt plana exscripturis divinis quaecunque necessaria sunt manifesta sunt yet no man ever hath yet defined what are necessary and what not What points are fundamentall and what are not fundamentall Necessary to Salvation is one thing and necessary for knowledge as an improvement of our faith is an other thing for the first if a man keeps the Commandments and believes all the Articles of the Creed he may be saved though he never read a word of Scripture but much more assuredly if he meditates upon Gods word with the Psalmist day and night But if he meanes to walk by the rule of Gods word and to search the Scriptures he must lay hold upon the means that God hath ordained whereby he may attain unto the true understanding of them for as Saint Paul saith God hath placed in the Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Doctors to the end we should be no more little children blowen about with every wind of Doctrine therefore it is not for babes in understanding to take upon them to understand those things wherein so great a Prophet as the Prophet David confessed the darkness of his own ignorance And though it be true the Scripture is a river through which a lambe may wade and an Elephant may swim yet it is to be supposed and understood that the lambe must wade but onely through where the river is foordable It doth not suppose the river to be all alike in depth for such a river was never heard of but there may be places in the river where the lambe may swim as well as the Elephant otherwise it is impossible that an Elephant should swim in the same depth where a lambe may wade though in the same river he may neither is it the meaning of that place that the child of God may wade through the Scripture without directions help or Judges but that the meanest capacitie qualified with a harmeless innocence and desirous to wade through that river of living waters to eternal life may find so much of Comfort and heavenly knowledge there easily to be obtained that he may easily wade through to his eternal Salvation and that there are also places in the same river wherein the highest speculations may plunge themselves in the deep misteries of God Wherefore with pardon crav'd for my presumption in holding Your Majestie in so tedious a discourse as also for my boldness in obtruding my opinion which is except as incomparable Hooker in his Ecclesiasticall pollicy hath well observed the Churches Authority be required herein as necessary hereunto we shall be so far from agreeing upon the true meaning of the Scripture that the outward letter sealed with the inward witness of the Spirit being all hereticks have quoted Scripture and pretended Spirit will not be a warrant sufficient enough for any private man to judge so much as the Scripture to be Scripture or the Gospel it self to be the Gospel of Christ This Church being found out and her Authority allowed of all controversies would be soon decided and although we allow the Scripture to be the lock upon the door which is Christ yet we must allow the Church to be the Key that must open it as Saint Ambrose in his 38. Sermon calls the agreement of the Apostles in the Articles of our beliefe Clavis Scripturae one of whose Articles is I believe the holy Catholick Church As the Lion wants neither strength nor courage nor power nor weapons to seize upon his prey yet he wants a nose to find it out wherefore by naturall instinct he takes to his assistants the little Jack-call a quick sented beast who runs before the Lion and having found out the prey in his language gives the Lion notice of it who soberly untill such time as he fixes his eyes upon the bootie makes his advance but once comming within view of it with a more speed then the swiftest running can make hast he jumps upon it and seizes it Now to apply this to our purpose Christ crucified is the main substance of the Gospel according to the Apostles saying I desire to know nothing but Jesus and him crucified This crucified Christ is the nourishment of our soules according to our Saviours own words Vbi Cadaver ibi aquilae Thereby drawing his Disciples from the curious speculation of his body glorified to the profitable meditation of his body crucified It is the prey of the Elect the dead Carkes feedeth the Eagles Christ crucified nourisheth his Saints according to Saint Johns saying except we eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his bloud we have no life in us him we must mastigate and chew by faith traject and convey him into our hearts as nutriment by meditation and digest him by Coalition whereby we grow one with Christ and Christ becomes one with us according to that saying of Tertullian auditu devorandus est intellectu ruminandus fide digerendus Now for the true understanding of the Scriptures which is no other thing then the finding out of Jesus and him crucified who is the very life of the Scriptures which body of Divinitie is nourished with no other food and all its vaines fil'd with no other bloud though this heavenly food the Scripture have neither force nor
more then ordinarily vers'd in controversie especially for a man who was no professed Schollar and a noble-man besides you must imagine this to be a businesse of long deliberation on his part and that he was not without those helps that could and no question did assist him with all the force that was in argument If any shall say that the publisher of this controversie did ill to present the Church of Rome dressed in such specious apparences of truth to the startling of mens consciences I answer that if that Champion of the Philistians had not been discribed unto us according the full height of that stature he was of nor the discription of his armour according to the substance of his head-piece and the weight of his coat nor the formidablenesse of his weapon according to the vast dimension of his staffe nor the terribility of his speers head according to the many hundred shekels of Iron whereof it was made we should wonder why the soul of Jonathan should be so knit unto the soul of David why Saul should honour him so much and the people so much admire him and the women praise him so many degrees beyond Saul but as the posture of the Gyant hightened the admiration of David so the force of those arguments was but an improvement of the Kings conquest over the temptation They did ill who fomented jealousies in the hearts of the People upon this score viz. that the late King was a Papist in his heart and that he intended to bring in popery whereby he so lost the hearts of his people upon that false ground that all the veines-akings of so many thousand hearts to one could not recover him whom they had lost with a meer frolick nor a more plentifulnesse of tears then had been shed for all the Princes since the Conquest could recall him The Author did not this to startle mens consciences but to prick the consciences of those who were the Authors of this Wherefore I shal desire this onely favour at your hand that you will believe me that it was neither that Insanabile scribendi Cacoethes nor ostentatio eruditionis nor the effascination of any popular applause nor any intention to boulster up any cause or faction that invited me to this publication but meerly because I would not have the wind to get into your ears that blows from so could a quarter where charity is so frozen that she wants life to believe so favourably of the dead as truth requires and so doing you have done him right who hath done you service Thomas Bayly Certamen Religiosum OR A CONFERANCE BETWEEN The late King of England and the late Lord Marquesse of Worcester concerning Religion at His Majesties being at Ragland-Castle 1646. IT is not to be imagined otherwise but that every man who pretends unto Religion makes the same Reli … … ich he professeth 〈…〉 Jacobs Ladder or his fiery 〈…〉 ascend to heaven Neither is 〈…〉 supposed but that the same man 〈◊〉 â—…hought any other Religion better 〈◊〉 his own or his own not the only way to heaven would forsake that Religion which he had formerly imbraced and matriculate himself a member of that Church whose purer hands were likeliest to give him the truest blessing Wherefore burning zeal is not to be blamed though the fire be misplac'd if it operate according to its own nature which is to congregate homogeneall beings and make them love to sit by the same fire Thus affected was that Noble and indeed in his way heavenly disposed Henry late Marquesse of Worcester to play the greatest prize that ever was played between any two that ever entred within those lists Three Diadems were to encounter with the Tripple Crowne and the Tripple Crown with three Scepters opportunity that lucky gamster that hardly loses a game in twenty was on the Marquesses side time and place directed him how to take points in his own Tables the King at that time being in the Marquess own house at Ragland and necessitated to borrow money to buy bread after so great a losse at Nazeby the King being thus put to play the after game with the old Marquesse was a little mistrustful that he had not plaid the fore game with him so well as that he had not thereby prejudic'd the latter for though the Marquesse and his son were the two ablest and most forward'st shoulderers up of the declining Throne especially the chip of the old block whose disposition expressed it self most Noble in not caring who had lov'd the King so that he might be but permitted to love Alexander whom he affected not only with the loyall respects of a subject towards his Soveraigne but also with such passionate wayes of expressions and laboriousnesse in all good offices as are wont to be predominant in those in whom simpathy is the the only ground of their affections yet there were not wanting some kind of men who made the aversnesse of this Noble-mans Religion an occasion of improving their own envies which though it could never lose him the least ground in his Masters good opinion of him who never would judge no more a Saint by his face then a Devil by his feet but both according to their severall ingagements yet there were some things which happened as having relation to this family which were not altogether pleasing however though His Majesty came thither usher'd by necessity yet he came neither unwelcomed nor uninvited and entertained as if he had been more King by reason of some late atchivements rather then otherwise and though money came from him like drops of bloud yet he was contented that every drop within his body should be let out at His command so that he might performe so meritorious a piece of worke as he thought the being an instrument of bringing the Father of of his Country to be the Son of his Church would be unto his souls health The Marquesse having these resolutions within himselfe thought to give them breath at the same time that His Majestie should make his motion for a further supply of money which he daily and hourly expected but was deceived in his expectations for the relation already having reach'd the Kings ear how an accident had made me no less fortunate to his Lordship then in being the meanes of preserving his Lordships person and no inconsiderable fortune then in the same venture with him and how that I preserved both the one and the other in concealing both for the space that the Moon useth to be twice in riding of her circuit the particulars hereof here to insert would tend rather to much arrogance then any purpose wherefore I further forbear untill such time as the trust that providence had reposed in me was crowned by the same hand with such successe as brought the Marquesse safe to his own house in peace which I had no sooner brought to passe hut the Marquess drew from me a solemn ingagement never to leave him so
designe of mine should be thought a Conspiracy such a one as Gowries then they will take an occasion to Plunder me of all that I have I protest I never thought of this I wish I never had attempted any such thing whereupon I told his Lordship that it was too late now to entertaine any such fears neither was there any ground for any such jealousie whereat the Marquess replyed fie fie I would to God that I had let it alone I perceiving this tergiversation to proceed out of an awfulnesse which his loyal hart ever carried with it towards His sacred Majestie which might very well raise doubts of a high nature out of the manner of the fact thus spake unto his Lordship My Lord you know your own heart hest if there be nothing in your intentions but wbat is good and justifiable you need not fear if otherwise it is never too late to repent at which words the Marquess seemed to be much troubled saying Ah! Doctor I thought I had been sure of one friend and that you would never have harboured the least suspition of me God knows my hart I have no other intention towards His Majestie then to make Him a glorious Man here and a glorified Saints hereafter Then said I my Lord shake off these fears together with the drowsinesse that begat them Hony soit qui male pense O said my Lord but I am not of that order but I thank God I weare that motto about my heart to as much purpose as they who weare it ahout their armes and began to be a little pleasant and took a pipe of Tobacco and a little glass full of Aqua Mirabilis and said come now let us go in the name of God crossing himself I had no sooner brought my Lord to the door of the meeting Chamber but the Clocke struck a eleven whereupon I presently left my Lord in the portall where he would needs be untill such time as the King were entered the room and should send for him in and went to the place where I was to expect the King according to the Intimation which I had formerly given His Majestie I had not been long there before His Majestie came forth saying unto me softly I have escaped one danger none within my Chamber knowes of my comming abroad this night to which I answered that if it were discovered I hope there is nothing in the exploit so dangerous as to deserve such a word which His Majestie made answer as I waited upon His Majestie Misprisions evil Constructions and false Judgements are dangers worth escaping at any time and therefore where I run a hazard I alwayes escape a danger They who carrie onely their own eyes in their head and have no other upon them may go which way they please but he that hath all the peoples eyes upon him must looke which way he goes by this time His Majestie was come into the Chamber who continuing on his saying spake further neither is it sufficient for him to lead theirs according to the perspicuitie and quickness of his own but he must allow them the abatements which either the Distance of the Object the Indisposition of the Organ or the Mis-disposition of some bad Mediums may require in vulgar Spirits by reason of their incapacitie of looking further then apparence I answered the King in these words May it please your most excellent Majestie to give me leave to speak under the highest Correction I conceive these to be singular good Caveats Antidotes against reall evill but not against apparances for the King of Kings and Saviour of the world sought not to avoid them but was contented to be accounted a friend to Publicans and a Sinner himself so that he might unlade them of their sins to be thought a bibber of their wine so that he might infuse into them his Divine grace desiring his Majestie to pardon me further in regard that I had left my Lord Marquess in the dark O said the King you should have spoke sooner bring him in I left His Majestie and brought in the Marquess who comming in leaning upon my arm as he used to do he thus merrily began the Discourse THE CONFERENCE Marquesse SIr I hope if they catch us in the act it will not be deem'd in me an act of so high Conspiracy in regard that I enter the lists leaning upon a Doctor of your own Church To whom the King reply'd a as merrily C. R. My Lord I know not whether I should have a better opinion of your Lordship for the Doctors sake or a worse opinion of the Doctor for your Lordships sake for though you leane much upon his arme yet he may leane more upon your judgement Marq. Sir It conduceth a little to the purpose we have in hand to be a little serious in the thing you speak of your Majesty knowes the grounds of my acquaintance with the Doctor and my obligation to him which difference in opinion shall never mittigate in point of affection but I protest unto you I could never gaine the least ground of him yet in perswading him from his principles King It may be your Lordship hopes to meet with a weaker Disputant of me Marq. Not so and if it please your Majesty but I thinke thus that if it should please God to make me so happy an instrument of his Churches good as to be a meanes to incline your Royall heart to imbrace the truth I believe that he and thousands such as he would be soon brought to follow your Majesty in the right way who are so constant followers of your steps whilst you are in a wrong path the oathes which they have taken the relation which their Hyrarchy have to the Crown which must be no longer so but whilst the government of the Church and soules stand as a reserve to the regiment of lives and fortunes the preferment which they expect from your Majesty and the enjoyment of those preferments which they have already which they must no longer enjoy then whilst they are or seeme to be of your opinion causeth them to smother their own knowledge whilst their mouthes are stopt with interest whereas if the strong tide of your Majesties opinion were but once turn'd all the ships in the river would soon turne head Hereupon the Marquesse abruptly fell from his subject and asked the King Sir I pray tell me what is it that you want The King smiled a little at his sodaine breaking off and making such preposterous haste to aske that question answered King My Lord I want an Army can you help Me to one Marq. Yes that I can and to such a one as should your Majesty commit your self to their fidelity you should be a Conquerour fight as often as you please King My Lord such an Army would do the businesse I pray let me have it Marq. What if your Majesty would not confide in it when it should be presented unto you King My Lord
I would faine see it and as faine confide in that of which I had reason to be confident Marq. Take Gidions three hundred men and let the rest begon King Your Lordship speaks mistically will it please you to be plaine a little Marq. Come I see I must come nearer to you Sir It is thus God expected a worke to be done by your hands but you have not answered his expectation nor his mercy towards you when your Enemies had more Cities and Garisons then you had private families to take your part when they had more Cannon then you had Muskets when the people crowded to heap treasures agaidst you whilst your Majesties friends were faine here and there to make a gathering for You when they had Navies at Sea whilst Your Majesty had not so much as a Boat upon the River whilst the odds in number against you was like a full crop against a gleaning then God wrought his miracle in making Your gleaning bigger then their vintage he put the power into your hand and made You able to declare Your self a true man to God and gratefull to Your friends but like the man whom the Prophet makes mention of who bestowed great cost and paines upon his vineyard and at last it brought forth nothing but wilde grapes so when God had done all these things for You and expected that You should have given his Church some respit to their oppressions I heard say You made vowes that if God blest You but that day with * Nazeby Fight Victory you would not leave a Catholike in Your Army for which I fear the Lord is so angry with You that I am afraid he will not give you another day wherein you may so much as trie your fortune Your Majesty had forgot the monies which came unto you from unknown hands and were brought unto you by unknown faces when yau promised you would never forsake your unknown friends you have forgotten the miracalous blessings of the Almighty upon those beginnings and how have you discountenanc'd distrusted dis-regarded I and disgraced the Catholiques all along and at last vowed an extirpation of them Doth not your Majesty see clearly how that in the two great Battailes the North and Nazeby God shewed signes of his displeasure when in the first your Enemies were even at your mercy confusion fell upon you and you lost the day like a man that should so wound his Enemies that he could scarce stand and afterwards his own sword should fly out of the hilt and leave the strong and skilfull to the mercy of his falling enemies and in the second and I fear me the last Battaile that e're you 'le fight whilst your men were crying victory as I hear they had reason so to do your sword broke in the aire which made you a fugitive to your flying enemies Sir I pray pardon my boldnesse for it is Gods cause that makes me so bold and no inclination of my own to be so and give me leave to tell you that God is angry with you and will never be pleased untill you have taken new resolutions concerning your Religion which I pray God direct you or else you 'le fall from nought to worse from thence to nothing King My Lord I cannot so much blame as pitty your zeal the soundnesse of Religion is not to be tried by dint of sword nor must we judge of her truthes by the prosperity of events for then of all men Christians would be most miserable we are not to be thought no followers of Christ by observations drawne from what is crosse or otherwise but by taking up our crosse and following Christ neither do I remember my Lord that I made any such vow before the Battaile of Nazeby concerning Catholiques but some satisfaction I did give my Protestant Subjects who on the other side were perswaded that God blest us the worse for having so many Papists in our Army Marq. The difference is not great I pray God forgive you who have most reason to aske it King I think not so my Lord. Narq Who shall be judge King I pray my Lord let us sit down and let reason take her seat Marq. Reason is no judge King But she may take her place Marq. Not above our Faith King But in our arguments Marq. I beseech your Majesty to give me a reason why you are so much offended with our Church King Truly my Lord I am much offended with your Church if you meane the Church of Rome if it were for no other reason but this for that she hath foisted into her legend so many ridiculous stories as are able to make as much as in them lies Christianitie it self a fable whereas if they had not done this wrong unto the tradition of the primative Church we then had left unto us such rare and unquestionable verities as would have adorned and not dawb'd the Gospel whereas now we know not what is true or false Marq. Sir if it be allowed to question what the Catholick Church holds out for truth because that which they hold forth unto us seemes ridiculous and to picke and chuse verities according to our own fancie and reject as novelties and forgeries what we please as impossibilities and fabulous The Scriptures themselves may as well suffer by this kind of tolleration for what more ridiculous then the Dialoge between Balaam and his Ass or that Sampsons strenght should be in his hair or that he should slay a thousand men with the Jaw-bone of an Ass The Disputation betweeen Saint Michael and the Devil about the body of Moses Philip's being taken up in the air and found at Aroties with a thousand the like strange and to our apprehension if we look upon them with carnall eyes vaine and ridiculous but being they are recorded in Scripture which Scripture we hold for truth we admire but never question them so the fault may not be in the tradition of the Church but in the libertie which men assume to themselves to question the tradition And I beseech Your Majestie to consider the streakes that are drawne over the Divine writ as so many delenda's by such bold hands as those the Testaments were not like the two Tables delivered into the hands of any Moses by the immediate hand of God neither by the Ministration of Angels but men inspired with the holy Ghost writ whose writings by the Church were approved to be by inspiration which inspirations were called Scripture which Scriptures most of them as they are now received into our hands were not received into the Cannon of the Church all within three hundred years after Christ why may not some bold spirits call all those scriptures which were afterwards acknowledged to be Scripture were not before forgeries Nay have not some such as blind as bold done it already Saint Hier was the first that ever pickt a hole in the Scriptures and cut out so many books out of the word of God with the
penknife of Apoccrypha Ruffinus challengeth him for so doing and tells him of the gap that he hath opened for wild beasts to enter into this field of the Church and tread down all ill corn Jerom gives his reasons because they were not found in the Originall Copie as if the same spirit which gave to those whom it did inspire the diversities of tongues should it self be tied to one language but withall he acknowledgeth this much of those books which he had thus markt in the forehead Canonici sunt ad informandos mores sed non ad confirmandam fidem how poor a Distinction this is and how pernitious a president this was I leave it to Your Majestie to judge for after him Luther takes the like boldness and at once takes away the three Gospels of Mark Luke and John Others take away the epistle to the Hebrews others the epistle of Saint Jude others the second and third epistles of Saint Peter others the epistle of Saint James others the whole book of the Revelation Wherefore to permit what the Church proposes to be questionable by particular men is to bring down the Church the Scriptures and the Heavens upon our heads there was a Church before there was a Scripture which Scripture as to us had not been the Word of God if the Church had not made it so by teaching us to believe it The preaching of the Gospel was before the writing of the Gospell the Divine Truth that dispersed it self over the face of the whole earth before i'ts Divinitie was comprised within the Cannon of the Scripture was like that Primeva Lux which the world received before the light was gathered into the body of the Sun this body so glorious and comfortable is but the same light which was before we cannot make it an other though it be otherwise and therefore though the Church and the Scripture like the light that is concomitant and precedent to the Sun be distinct in tearms yet they are but one the same no man can see the Sun but by it's own light shut your eyes from this light and you cannot behold the body of the Sun Shut your eyes against one and you are blind in both he never had God to be his Father who had not the Church to be his Mother if you admit Sillogismes a priori you will meet with many paralogismes a posteriori cry down the Churches Authoritie pull out the Scriptures efficacie give but the Church the lie now and then and you shall have enough will tell you the Scripture is false here and there they who have set so little by the tradition of the Church have set by halfe the Scriptures and will at last throw all away wherefore in a word as to denie any part of the Scripture were to open a vain so to question any thing which the Church proposes is to teare the seamlesse Coat of Christ and to pierce his body King My Lord I see you are better provided with Arguments then I am with memorie to run through the series of your Discourse satisfie me but in one thing and I shall soone yield to all that you have said and that is concerning this Catholick Church you talke of I know the creed tels us that we must believe it and Christ tells us that we must hear it but neither tell us that that is the Church of Rome Marq. Gratious Sir the creed tells us that it is the Catholick Church and Saint Paul tells us in his epistle to the Romans that their faith was spread abroad through the whole world King That was the Faith which the Romanes then believed which is nothing to the Roman Faith which is now believed Marq. The Romane Faith then and now are the same King I denie that my Lord. Marq. When did they alter their Faith King That requires a librarie neither is it requisite that I tell you the time when if the envious man sowes his tares whilst the husband-man was asleep and afterwards he awakes and sees the tares are they not tares because the hushand-man knowes not when they were sown Marq. And if it please Your Majestie in a thing that is so apparent your similitude holds good but in the differences between us and the protestants are not so without dispute as that it is yet granted by the major part of Christians that they are errours which we believe contrary to Your Tenents and therefore the similitude holds not but I shall humbly intreat Your Majestie to consider the proofes which the learned Cardinal Peroone hath made concerning this particular in his answer to Your Royall Father his Apologie to all Christian Princes where he proves how that all the Tenents which are in controversie now between you and us were practised in the Church of Christ within the first three hundred years wherefore I think it would be no injury to reason to require belief that that which hath been so long continued in the Church and so universaly received and no time can be set down when those Tenents or Ceremonies did arise must needs be Catholick for time and place and Apostolical for institution though we have no warrant from the Scriptures to believe them to be such For the Apostle Saint Paul commanded Timothy to keep fast the things which he had delivered unto him as well by word as by writ Wherefore if we will believe no tradition we may come at last to believe no writings King That was your own fault wherefore I blame your Church for the way to make the Scriptures not believed were to adde unto them new inventions and say they were Scriptures Marq. If the Church of Christ had so mean esteeme then as amongst some she hath now certainly the former books received into her Cannon would have been much prejudiced by the admittance of the latter wherefore if the Church be questionable then all is brought in question King My Lord you have not satisfied me where this Church is and as concerning the Cardinals book I have seen it and have read a part of it but do not remember neither do I believe that he hath prov'd that which you say Marq. It may be the proofes were in that part of the book which Your Majestie did not read and as for my proving the Romane Church to be this Church by which we should be all guided I thus shall do my endeavour That Church whose Doctrine is most Catholick and universall must be the Catholick Church but the Romane Church is such Ergo. King My Lord I denie your Minor the Romane Church is not more universall the Grecian Church is far more spreading and if it were not it were no Argument for the Church of the Mahumetanes is larger then both Marq. First This is no Argument either for an English Man or a Protestant but for a Grecian or Mahumetane not for an English Man because he received his Conversion from Rome and therefore he in Reason should not
wish that all Controversies betwixt you and Us were as well decided I am fully satisfied in this point Doctor May it please Your Majestie A great many Controversies between us and the Papists might be soon decided if the Churches revennues which were every where taken away more or less where differences in Religion in several parts of the world did arise in the Church were not an obstacle of the reunion like the stone which the Crab cast into the Oyster which hindred it from ever shutting it self again like the division which happened between the Greek and Latin Church Photinus intrudes himself into the Patriarch-ship of Constantinople over the head of Ignatius the lawfull Patriarch thereof whom the Pope preserved in his Communion and then the difference of the Procession of the holy Ghost between those two Churches was fomented by the sayd Photinus least the wound should heale to soone and the patient should not be held long enough in cure for the benefit of the Chyrurgion Sacriledge hath brought more divisions then the nature of their causes have required and the universities play with edged tools whilst hungry stomacks run away with their meat wherefore since Your Majestie was pleased to discharge the watch that I had set before the door of my lips I shall make bold to put Your Majestie in mind of houlding my Lord to the demand which Your Majestie once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were througly determined all Controversies not onely between Your Majestie his Lordship but also all the Controversies that ever were started would soon be decided at a short race end and without this we take away the meanes of reconciliation For I must confesse ingeniously yet under the highest correction that there is not a thing that I ever understood less then that assertion of the Scriptures being judge of Controversies though in some sence I must and will acknowledge it but not as it is a book consisting of papers words and letters for as we commonly say in matters of civil differences the Law shall be the Judge between us we do not mean that every man shall run unto the Law books or that any Lawyer himself shall search his Law-cases and thereupon possess himself of any thing that is in question between him and another without a legall trial and determination by lawfull Judges constituted to that same purpose In like manner saving knowledge and Divine Truths are the portion that all Gods children layes fast claime unto yet they must not be their own carvers though it is their own meat that is before them whilst they have a mother at the table They must not slight all Orders Constitutions Appeales and Rules of Faith Saving knowledge and Divine Truths are not to be wrested from the Scripture by private hands for then the Scripture were of private interpretation which is against the Apostles Rule neither are those undefiled incorruptible and immaculate inheritances which are reserved for us in heaven to be conveighed unto us by any Privy-seales For there is nothing more absurd to my understanding then to say that the thing contested which is the true meaning of the Scriptures shall be Judge of the Contestation no way inferiour to that absurditie which would follow would be this if we should leave the deciding of the sence of the words of the Law to the preoccupated understanding of one of the Advocates neither is this all the absurditie that doth arise upon this Supposition for if you grant this to one you must grant it to any one and to every one if there were but two how will you reconcile them both If you grant that this judicature must be in many there are many manyes which of the manyes will you have decide but that and you satisfie all For if you make the Scripture the Judge of Controversie you make the reader Judge of the Scripture as a man consists of a soul and body so the Scripture consists of the letter and the sence if I make the dead letter my Judge I am the greatest and simplest idolater in the world it will tell me no more then it told the Indian Emperour Powhaton who asking the Jesuite how he knew all that to be true which he had told him and the Jesuite answering him that Gods word did tell him so The Emperour asked him where it was he shewed him his Bible The Emperour after that he had held it in his hands a prittie while answered It tells me nothing But you will say you can read and so you will find the meaning out of the significant Character and when you have done as you apprehend it so it must be and so the Scripture is nothing else but your meaning wherefore necessitie requires an external Judge for determination of differences besides the Scriptures And we can have no better recourses to any then to such as the Scripture it self calls upon us to hear which is the Church which Church would be found out King Doctor Saint John in his first Epistle tells us that the holy Scripture is that to whose truth the Spirit beareth witness And John the Evangelist tells us that the Scripture is that which gives a greater Testimonie of Christ then John the Baptist Saint Luke tells us that if we believe not the Scripture we would not believe though one were risen from the dead and Christ himself who raised men from death to life tells us they cannot believe his words if they believe not in Moses writings Saint Peter tells us that the holy Scriptures is surer then a voice from heaven Saint Paul tells us that it is lively in operation and whereby the Spirits demonstrates his power and that it is able to make a man wise to salvation able to save our soules and that it is sufficient too to make us believe in Christ to live everlasting John 20. As in every seed there is a Spirit which meeting with earth heat and moisture grows to perfection so the seed of the word wherein Gods holy Spirit being sowen in the heart inlivened by the heat of faith and watered with the teares of repentance soon fructifies without any further Circumstance Doctor It doth so but Your Majestie presupposes all this while husband-men and husbandery barnes and threshing floures winnowing and uniting these severall graines into one loafe before it can become childrens bread All that Your Majestie hath said concerning the Scriptures sufficiencie is true provided that those Scriptures be duly handled for as the Law is sufficient to determine right and keep all in peace and quiteness yet the execution of that sufficiencie cannot be performed without Courts and Judges so when we have granted the Scriptures to be all that the most reverend estimation can attribute unto them yet Religion cannot be exercised nor differences in Religion reconciled without a Judge For as Saint Jerom tells us who was no great friend to Popes or Bishops Si
and this not onely is but must be the meaning of Saint Gregory for he thus explicates the matter himself lib. 4. ind 13. ep 32. viz. The Care of the Church hath been committed to the Prince of all the Apostles Saint Peter and yet had Saint Peter called himself the Vniversall Apostle in the first sence seeing that Christ Jesus made other Apostles as well as him he had been no Apostle himself but Antichrist and yet this hindred not but that the care and principality was committed unto Peter Whereby you may plainly see how he ascribes a head-ships over the Church whilst he denies the Vniversalitie of Episcopacie Wherefore having shewed Your Majestie my Church I humbly beg that You will be pleased either to give me a few lines in answer hereunto or else to shew me Yours The Kings Paper in answer to the Marquess MY Lord I have perused your Paper whereby I find that it is no strange thing to see error triumph in antiquitie and florish all those ensigns of Universality Succession Unitie Conversion of Nations c. in the face of truth and nothing was so familiar either with the Jews or Gentiles as to besmeare the face of truth with spots of noveltie for this was Jeremiahs case Jerem 44. 16. viz. As for the word which thou hast spoken unto us in the Name of the Lord we will not hearken unto thee but we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouths to burn incense unto the Queen of heaven and to powre out drink-offering unto her as we have done we and our fathers our Kings and our Princes in the Cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem as we have done there is Antiquitie we and our fathers there is Succescession In the Cities of Judah and Jerusalem there is Universalitie so Demetrius urged Antiquitie and Universality for his goddes Diana viz. That her temple should not be despised nor her Magnificence destroyed whom all Asia and the world worshipped So Symacchus that wise Senator though a bitter enemie to the Christians Servanda est inquit tot seculis fides sequendi sunt nobis parentes qui feliciter sequuti sunt suos we must defend that Religion which hath worne out so many ages and follow our Fathers steps who have so happily followed theirs So Prudentius would have put back Christianitie it self viz. Nunc dogma nobis Christianum nascitur post evolutos mille demum Consules Now the Christian Doctrine begins to spring up after the revolution of a thousand Consul-ships But Ezekiel reads us another lecture Ne obdurate cervices vestras ut patres vestri cedite manum Jehovae ingredimini sanctuarium ejus quod sanctificavit in saeculum colite Jehovam Deum vestrum Be not stiff necked as your forefathers were resist not the mightie God enter into his sanctuarie which he hath consecrated for ever and worship yee the Lord your God Radbodus King of Phrygia being about to be baptized asked the Bishop what was become of all his ancestors who were dead without being baptized The Bishop answered that they were all in hell whereupon the King suddenly withdrew himself from the font saying Ibi profecto me illis Comitem adjungam Thither will I go unto them no lesse wise are they who had rather erre with fathers and Councels then rectifie their understanding by the word of God and square their faith according to its rules Our Saviour Christ saith we must not so much hearken to what has been said by them of old time Matth. 21. 12. as to that which he shall tell you where Auditis dictum esse antiquitis is exploded and Ego dico vobis is come in its place which of them all can attribute that credit to be given unto him as is to be given to Saint Paul Yet he would not have us to be followers of him more then he is a follower of Christ 1 Cor. 11. 1. Wherefore if you crie never so loud Sancta mater Ecclesia sancta mater Ecclesia the holy mother Church holy mother Church as of old they had nothing to say for themselves but Templum Domini Templum Domini the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord we will crie as loud again with the Prophet Quomodo facta est meretrix Vrbs fidelis how is the faithfull Citie become a harlot if you vaunt never so much of your Roman Catholick Church we can tell you out of Saint John that she is become the Synagogue of Sathan neither is it impossible but that the house of prayers may be made a Den of theeves you call us hereticks we answer you with Saint Paul Act. 24. 14. After the way which you call heresie so worship we the God of our fathers believing all things which were written in the Law and the Prophets I will grant you that all those marks which you have set done are marks of the true Church and I will grant you more that they were belonging to the Church of Rome but then you must grant me thus much that they are as well belonging to any other Church who hold and maintain that doctrine which the Church of Rome then maintained when she wrought those conversions and not at all to her if she have changed her first love and fallen from her old principles for it will do her no good to keep possession of the keyes when the lock is changed now to try whether she hath done so or no there can be no better way then by searching the Scriptures for though I grant you that the Catholick Church is the white in that butt of earth at which we all must aim yet the Scripture is the heart centre or peg in the midst of that white that holds it up from whence wee must measure especially when wee are all in the white We are all of us in gremio Ecclesiae so that controversies cannot be decided by the Catholick Chruch but by the Scriptures which is the thing by which the nearnes unto truth must be decided for that which must determine truth must not be fallible but whether you mean the consent of Fathers or the decrees of generall Counsels they both have erred I discover no Fathers nakednesse but deplore their infirmities that we should not trust in armes of flesh Tertullian was a montanist Cyprian a rebaptist Origin an Anthropomorphist Heirom a Monoganist Nazianzen an Angelist Eusebius an Arrian Saint Augustine had written so many errors as occasioned the writing of a whole book of retractaions they have often times contradicted one another and some times themselves Now for generall Counsels Did not that Concilium Ariminense conclude for the Arrian heresie Did not that Concilium Ephesinum conclude for the Eutichian heresie Did not â—hat Concilium Carthaginense conclude 〈◊〉 not lawfull for Priests to marry Was not Athanasius condemned In … cilio Tyrio Was not Eiconolatria established In concilio Nicaeno secundo What should I say more when the Apostles
and whose opinions are most approved of by the Primitive times Fathers and what ground your late Divines have built their new opinions upon and then I shall give your Majesty an answer to the objection which you make against our Church viz. That she hath forsaken her first love and fallen from the principles which she held when she converted us to Christianity But first to the removall of those rubs in our way and then I shall shew as much reverence to the Scripture as any Protestant in the world and shall endeavour to shew your Majesty that the Sctiptures are the Basis or foundation upon which our Church is built Your Majesty was pleased to urge the errors of certain Fathers to the prejudice of their authority which I conceive would have been so had they been all Montanists Rebaptists all Anthropomorphists and all of them generally guilty of the faults where-with they were severally charged in the particulars seeing that when we produce a Father we doe not intend to produce a man in whose mouth was never found guile the infallibility being never artributed by us otherwise then unto the Church not unto particular Church-men as Your Majesty hath most excellenly observed in the failings of the holy Apostles who erred after they had received the holy Ghost in so ample manner but when they were all gathered together in Councell and could send about their edicts with these capitall letters in the front Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Acts 15. 28. then I hope your Majesty cannot say that it was possible for them to erre So though the Fathers might erre in particulars yet those particular errors would be swallowed up in a generall Councel and be no more considerable in respect of the whole then so many heat-drops of error can stand in competition with a cloud of witnesses to the divine truth be no more prejudiciall to their general determinations then so many exceptions are prejudicial to a general rule Neither is a particular defection in any man any exception against his testimony cept it be in the thing wherhin he is deficient for otherwise we should be of the nature of the flies who only prey upon corruption leaving all the rest of the body that is whole unregarded Secondly Your Majesty taxes generall Councels for committing errors If Your Majesty would be pleased to search into the times wherein those Councels were called Your Majesty shall find that the Church was then under persecution and how that Arrian Emperours rather made Assemblies of Divines then called any generall Councels and if we should suppose them to be generall and free Councels yet they could not be erroneous in any particular mans judgement untill a like generall Councel should have concluded the former to be erroneous except you wil allow particulars to condemn generals private men the whol Church all generall Councels from the first unto the last that ever were or shall be maks but one Church and though in their intervails there be no session of persons yet there is perpetuall virtue in their decretals to which every man ought to appeal for judgment in point of controversie Now as it is a maxim in our law Nullum tempus occurrit regi so it is a maxim in divinity Nullum tempus occurrit deo Vbi deus est as he promised I will be with you alwaies unto the end of the world that is with his Church in directing her chief Officers in all their consultations relating either to the truth of her doctrine or the manner of her discipline wherefore if it should be granted that the Church had at any time determined amiss the Church cannot be said to have erred because you must not take the particular time for the Catholick Church because the Church is as well Catholick for time as territory except that you will make rectification an error For as in civil affairs if that wee should take advantage of the Parliaments nulling former Acts and thereupon conclude that we will be no more regulated by its lawes we should breed confusion in the Common-wealth for as they alter their lawes upon experience of present inconveniences so the Councels cange their decrees according to that further knowledge which the holy writ assures us shall encrease in the latter daies provided that this knowledge he improved by means approved of and not by every enthusiastick that shall oppose himself against the whole Church If I recall my own words it is no error but an avoidance of error so where the same power rectifies it selfe though some things formerly have been decreed amiss yet that cannot render the decrees of generall Councels not binding or incident to error quoad ad noâ— though in themselves and protempore they may be so As to Your Majesties objecting the errors of the holy Apostles and pen-men of the holy Ghost and Your inference thereupon viz. That truth is no where to be found but in holy Scripture under Your Majesties correction I take this to be the greatest argument against the private spirit urged by your Majesty its leading us into all truth that could possibly be found out For if such men as they indued with the holy Ghost inabled with the power of working miracles so sanctyfied in their callings and enlightened in their understandings could erre how can any man lesse quallified assume to himself a freedome from not erring by the assistance of a private spirit Lastly as to Your Majesties quotations of so many Fathers for the Scriptures easines and plainnesse to be understood If the Scriptures themselves doe tell us that they are hard to be understood so that the unleaned and unstable wrest them to their own destruction 2 Peter 3. 16. and if the Scripture tells us that the Eunuch could not understand them except some man should guide him as Acts 8. 13. and if the Scripture tels us that Christs own Disciples could not understand them untill Christ himself expounds them unto them as Luke 24. 25. and if the Scriptures tell us how the Angel wept much because no man was able either in heaven or earth to open the Book sealed with seven seals nor to look upon it as Apoc. 5. 1. then certainly all these sayings of theirs are either to be set to the errata's that are be hind their books or else we must look out some other meaning of their words then what Your Majesty hath inferr'd from thence as thus they were easie id est in aliquibus but not in omnibus locis or thus they were easie as to the attainment of particular salvation but not as to the generall cognisance of all the divine mystery therein contained requisite for the Churches understanding and by her alone and her consultations and discusments guided by an extraordinary and promised assistance only to be found out of which as to every ordinary man this knowledge is not necessary so hereof he is not capable First we hold the reall presence
enclosure of brotherly affection d Cant. 4. 12. Cant. 2. 1. Will you forsake the Rose of Sharon and the Lillie of the Vallies for such a nose-gay for I shall make it apparent unto Your Majestie that the Doctrines which Protestants now hold as in opposition unto us were but so many condemned heresies by the antient and orthodoxall Fathers of the Church and never opposed by any of them as for example Protestants hold that the Church may erre this they had from the Donatists for which they were frequently reproved by St. Augustin a Passim cont Donat. Protestants denie unwritten traditions and urge Scripture onely This they had from the Arrians who were condemned for it by St. Epiphanius and St. Augustin both b Epiph. Her 75. Aug cont maxim li 1. c. 2. ult Protestants teach that Priests may marry this they had from Vigilantius who is condemned for it by St. Hieronimus c Con. Vigilan c. 1. Protestants denie Prayer for the dead this they had from Arrius for which he is condemned by St. August and Epiphanius both d Aug haer 53. Epiphan haer 75. Protestants denie Invocation of Saints this they had from Vigilantius for which he was condemned by St. Hieron e Hic Cont Vigil c. 3. Protestants denie Reverence to Images this they had from Xenias for which he is reproved by Nicephorus f Hist li 16. c. 27. Protestants denie the reall Presence this they had from the Carpenaites who were saith St. Augustin the first Hereticks that denied the reall Presence and that Judas was the first Suborner and Maintainer of this heresie g Aug in Psal 54. and 55. Protestants denie Confession of sins to a Priest so did the Novatian Hereticks and the Montanists for which they are reproved by St. Ambrose and St. Hieron h Ambr i de poenit c. 7. Hier Epist ad Marcle 54. Protestants say that they are justified by Faith onely this they had from the pseudo-Apostles for which they are condemned by St. Augustin i Aug de fide oper c. 14. Lastly as I have shewed Your Majestie that Your Church as it stands in opposition to ours is but a congeries of so many heresies to which I could easily make an enlargement but that I fear I have been too tedious already So I shall make it appear that our Church as she stands in opposition unto yours is true and right even your selves being witnesses you shall find our Doctrine among your own Doctors First the Greek Church whom you court to your side as indeed they are Protestants according to your vulgar reception being you call all those Protestants who are or were in any Opposition to the Church of Rome though in their Tenents otherwise they never so much do disagree For the Greek Church with which you so often hit us in the teeth and take to be of your faction she holds Invocation of Saints Adoration of Images Transubstantiation Communion in one kind for the sick and many others Master Parker confesseth that Luther crossed himself morning and evening and is never seen to be painted praying but before a Crucifix a Against Simb part 1. C. 2. sect 30. p. 105. See Jo Crevel refut Cerem miss p. 188 Jo Manl Loc Com. p. 636. As touching the Invocation of Saints saith Luther I think with the whole Christian Church and hould that Saints are to be honoured by us and invocated b Purgat quorund art in Ep ad Georg. Spal Inever denied Purgatorie saith Luther and yet I believe it as I have often written and confessed c Tom 7. fol 132. adversus bullam See him also in disp Lips c. de purgat resolut de indulg Conclus 16. See likewise Zwingl Tom 2. fol. 378. If it is lawfull saith Luther for the Jewes to have the picture of Caesar upon their Coins much more is it lawfull for Christians to have in their Churches Crosses and Images of Mary d Luth in Consolat prolab Ii 6. See this cited forth of Luth by Hasp Hist Sac p. 2. f. 33. and lastly he maintained the reall Presence e See Zwingl Tom. 2. fol 375. f p. 2. 16. g Pag 209. But let us go a little further and consider what they held whom ye call your Predecessours under whom ye shroud your Visibility and on whom you look beyond Luther for your Doctrines Patronage viz. First upon the Hussites who brake forth about the year 1400. they held seven Sacraments f Transsubstantiation g the Popes primacy h Pag 217. art 7 8. and the Mass i Luth in Colloq Germ c. de missa as Fox in his acts and monuments acknowledgeth Let us go further and consider Wickliffe our own Countrey-man who appeared about the year 1370. he maintained holy water k Wick de blasphem cap 17. worship of Reliques and Images l Idem de Eucharist c. 9. Intercession of the blessed Virgin Mary m Idem in Ser. de Assump Mariae the rites and Ceremonies of the Mass n Idem de apostasia c. 18. all the seven Sacraments o Idem in postill sup c. 15. Marci Moreover he held Opinions contrary and condemned both by Catholick and Protestants as that if a Bishop or Priest be in any mortall sin his Ordaining Consecrating or Baptising is of no effect p Acts and mon p. 96. a art 4. He condemned lawfull Oaths with the Anabaptists q Osiand Epist Hist Eccles p. 459. art 43. Lastly he maintained that any Ecclesiasticall Ministers were not to have any temporall possessions r Act mon p. 96. This last Opinion was such savoury Doctrine that rather then some of those times would not hearken to that they would listen to all as the greedy appetites to Bishops Lands make some now a dayes to hearken unto any thing that Cryers down of Bishops shall foment To go further yet to the Waldenses descended from the race of one Waldo a Marchant of Lions who brake out about the year 1220. These men held the reall Presence Å¿ In Epist 244. p. 450. for which they were reproved by Calvin These men extolled the merit of voluntary poverty they held Transubstantiation t Illiricus Catalog Test p. 1498. and many other opinions which most Protestants no way allow And lastly I shall run your pedegree to the radix and utmost Derivation that the best read Herauld in the Protestant Genealogy can run its line and that is to the Waldenses and to Berengarius who broacht his heresie in the year 1048. and he held all the points of Doctrine that we held onely he differed from us in the point of Transubstantiation And for this cause they took u Idem Catalog Test pag. 1502. him into the name and number of Protestants and Reformers nothwithstanding he presently afterwards recanted and died a Catholick So it ends where it never had beginning Finally if neither prescription of 1600 years possession and continuance of our Churches Doctrine nor our evidence out of the word of God nor the Fathers witnessings to that evidence nor the Decrees of Councels nor your own acknowledgements Be sufficient to mollifie and turne your royall heart there is no more meanes left for truth or me but I must leave it to God in whose hand are the hearts of Kings THis Paper was finished and delivered into His Majesties hands at a very unfit time either for perusall or answer being at the time when Bristoll was delivered up unto the Parliament and the Court in great distraction the King being in a study rather to know which way to goe then how to answer papers Yet His Majesty vouchsafed to run over the leaves rather then the lines with His eye and finding the Paper of some length and full of Quotations His Majesty said To answer this Paper requires a great deale of that which I want and that is time besides I perceive that to make due enquiry into these particulars it will require a great deale of search which if leisure would give leave I believe industry might find a great deale of foul play and mis-quotations Oxford would have been a fitter place for me then Ragland Castle to have entertain'd such an Incounter where the same place that is my Souldiers quarters is his Jesuites Colledge yet I pray tell him I returne his Paper to him againe and shall take another time to answer it when opportunity shall give me leave To morrow I shal ease his Lordship of a heavy burthen and this day will be time little enough for us to consider what course we are to take I prayed God to bless His Majesty in all His wayes and to direct Him in all His consultations The King having as it seem'd fixt His eye upon that place in my Lords Paper where he charged Luther for saying that he received his Doctrine from the Devil asked me what was Luthers meaning thereby or whither or no Luther said any such thing Whereunto I made answer that to my knowledge Luther had written so but I believed his meaning was as elsewhere he said Diabolus me Christianum fecit that having received many combates by the suggestions of the Devil deterring him from undertaking so great a weight as Reformation and having resisted those temptations and at last overcome them he became a better Scholler in the Schoole of Christ and Souldier in that spiritual warfare The King said Luther was a bold man and such high spirits sometimes take a pride to fight against common sence as if it were the common enemy Whereupon some of the Lords came in and I took my leave of His Majesty FINIS Errata PAge 2. lin 19. for Crown read Crosier Pag. 29. l. 8. for Aroties r. Azotus Pag. 54. l. 13. for it necessarie r. it not necessary Pag. 58. l. 23. for constitution r. contrition Pag. 64. l. 12. del two Pag. 91. l. 15. for Apostolicall r. Analogicall and l. 22. for invisibility r. visibility P. 111. l. 12. r. Audistis dictum esse antiquis Pag. 151. l. 21. for inferiour r. interiour Pag. 199. l. 18. for hiddenly r. suddenly