Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
Church is the pillar of truth whosoeuer doth separate himselfe from the Church doth depart from the truth And by this we do still proue that you are all heretickes and scismatikes and do peruert the scriptures because you take them not as the Church doth expound them The scriptures seeme to be on your side but they are not they seeme to be against vs but they are not Pro. This is very sound stuffe you make three strong conclusions out of three sentences of the scriptures In the first ye reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore none can vnderstand the scriptures but the learned by this your meaning is to shut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine and to allow vnderstanding of the scriptures to none but the learned that is the Clergie of Rome for that we shal haue by and by But ye ouershoote your selfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men doth meane such as haue not bin brought vp in schoole learning and so put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie No he counteth all those learned which are taught of God both of the common sort of people and other all those are vnlearned which are not taught of God although otherwise they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts or whatsoeuer Such as haue learned Christ Iesus and him crucified and so are become new creatures in Christ they are learned Col. 2. For in him are all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge He that hath not learned Christ he is vnlearned If he be not new borne but as S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 3. cōmitteth sin he hath not séene him nor knowne him although otherwise he be neuer so studied a mā in the scriptures Math. 11. For this cause we see that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wisedome because they imbraced the doctrine of Christ when the great Doctors the Scribes and Pharisies were starke blind They sayd none followed Christ but the multitude which knew not the law Iohn 7. which were accursed when as indeede they were blind and accursed themselues so fareth it now with the Pope and his shauelings they say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures when themselues do not The next sentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter also where hee saith No scripture is of priuate interpretation From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vs may interprete but Rome onely No priuate man is to interprete the scriptures because no scripture is of priuate interpretation all those which are not of the Popish Cleargie or which haue not authority in the Church from the Pope or do not expound as the Church are priuate men therfore none of those are to interprete the scriptures Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will haue all to himselfe But ye deale deceiptfully or at the least vnskilfully with the text which ye alleadge for Saint Peter when he saith priuate doth not speake it to make this difference betweene men as though for interpreting the scriptures some shold haue authority some should be priuate but he setteth men against God calling that priuate which is of man For he doth reason thus the scripture was not giuen by the will of man but by the spirite of God therefore the interpretation thereof must bee of God men must not bring that which is their owne If the interpretation be by the spirit then is it not priuate if it be out of mans braine although it should be the Pope al his Cardinals yea ten thousand Popes it is still priuate after the sense in which S. Peter doth call priuate For let any skilful man in the greeke tongue looke vpon the word which is idias epiluseos and he will confesse that it doth signifie that which is ones owne Then the sense is plaine and it is also manifest how peeuishly you peruert the word of God What manner of argument is this a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne therfore none may interprete them but the Church of Rome Your last reason is not worth answering for although it is most true that the Church is the pillar of truth that those are voyd of truth which abide not in the Church yet this is as false that the Pope his company are the Church of Christ as the other is true and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schismatikes for departing from you which are a den of theeues which haue conspired against the truth Pa. Two grosse things and strange I gather out of your words the one that you would haue the people of themselues to iudge of doctrine the other ye will haue no other interpreter of the sense of the Scriptures but the Spirit I pray ye I am an vnlearned man would faine know which is the truth I heare you alleadge the scriptures in one sense and you say you haue the spirit our men alleadge them in another sense and say they haue the spirit the Anabaptists they haue the spirite the Arrians they interprete by the spirit what shal I do here is euery man hath the spirit yet euery one goeth a contrary way It is manifest therefore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vnto or else the simple man cannot tell which way to turne him What shall he do now but looke how the Church beleeueth and rest in that For he must haue that which may teach him to know which of all these hath the true spirit or else he is neuer the neerer Pro. Ye find two grosse things in my words one of them is that I say the people can iudge of doctrine when it is preached What doth our Sauior Christ meane when he saith Iohn 10. My sheep heare my voyce a stranger they wil not heare they flie frō strangers Cā they know the voice of the true shepheard from the false can they not discerne doctrine The other is that I will haue none other interpreter of the sense of the scriptures but the spirit 1. Cor. 2. S. Paul saith the eare hath not heard nor the eye hath not seene neither came into mans hart the things which God hath prepared for them that loue him but God hath reuealed them vnto vs by his spirite for the spirite searcheth all things yea the deepe things of God And the great doubt which you put forth in the simple man which would faine vnderstand the truth and which of all those foure that ye named haue the spirit I answer that if he himselfe haue not the spirite of God to teach him he shall not be able to iudge but if the spirite do teach him then can he find it for the spirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine which is his doth teach the other to know that doctrine and in them consenteth vnto it being his owne and therefore
of all men who can complaine iustly when it is spoken of The Lord put into the hart of our gouernours to redresse it The same Lord heape his graces vpon your Lordship with increase of honor in his world and euerlasting life in the world to come Amen Your Honours most humble to command GEORGE GIFFORD A Contention betweene a Papist and a Professor of the Gospell PAPIST I Am glad to see you well Sir for old acquaintance sake which I would be content to renew againe Pro. I am glad also that you are in health I saw you not a great while before now Pa. I pray ye what newes were ye at London lately What is become of the Catholikes I heare there hath bene great disputation in the Tower Pro. There hath béene disputation indeed by reason of a proude challenge which was made Pa. Ye might terme it a proude challenge if he had not bene able to make his part good But I heare he behaued himselfe very learnedly and with great victorie against all which were set vppon him Pro. Ye haue heard moe lies then that but I perceiue ye are a Papist or at the least a fauourer of Papists for they bragge that he did excellently although in very déede he was there shewed to be but an obstinate cauiller Pa. Wherefore should ye call me Papist I am obedient to the lawes and do not refuse to go to the Church Pro. Then it seemeth you are a Church Papist Pa. A Church Papist what meane you by that Pro. Do you not know I will tell ye there are Papists which wil not come at the Church and there are Papists which can kéepe their conscience to themselues and yet go to Church of this latter sort it seemeth you are because ye go to the Church Pa. How can you tell what is in mens consciences you take vpon ye to iudge very deeply Pro. Nay there needeth no déepe iudgement they are so shallow that a man may easily sound them to the bottome Although the Church wals be thicke yet a man may espie them by some creuise Pa. Whereby do you know them so easily I pray by what notes can ye discerne them Pro. Some of them will not sticke to maintaine such popish opinions as they know there is no great danger of law for The simple sort which can no skill of doctrine speake of the mery world when there was lesse preaching and when all things were so cheape that they might haue xx egs for a penny Other there be which neuer name Papists but Catholikes if ye reason with them they do it but for arguments sake not that they say so but the Catholikes say so Another sort there are those are as pestilent as can bee for to the ende they may do the greater mischiefe they are Protestants but yet if any Preacher do zealously beate downe Popery he doth reaile he is cholerike hee is vncharitable and so they deuise all meanes possible to disturbe him these and suchlike are the notes to discerne a Church Papist Pa. You call them zealous Preachers they be very scismatikes and seduce the people with false doctrine and therfore such as be wise quiet and stayed men cannot abide them Pro. I see well that you are not of those which to it but for Arguments sake you will not shew what the Catholikes say but what your self saith Had ye not great cause to be offended when I said ye were a Papist Pa. I thinke plaine dealing is best in very deed I take ye to be heretikes I am a Catholike Pro. You take vs to be heretikes but in very deede I am able to proue that you are foule and rancke heretikes your selues and far from true Catholikes Pa. Ye do vs great wrong to call vs heretikes for we hold and bee of the Catholicke Church which hath euer condemned all heretikes If Catholikes be heretikes then are we also heretikes but this latter belongeth to you and all other which forsake the truth Pro. Nay those which hold the Catholike faith are of this Catholike Church and the doctrine of the Catholike faith we hold which hath alwaies condemned heretikes and therfore ye do vs as great wrong in calling vs heretikes as the Pharisies and Sadduces did vnto Saint Paule when they counted him so Act. 24.14 You haue forsaken the true doctrine of the old Catholike faith and therefore ye are no Catholikes Pa. We are they which hold the auncient Catholike faith yours is new doctrine we beleeue as all our forefathers did If your doctrine be true then all our forefathers were damned for they alwayes beleeued contrary to that which you beleeue Pro. The maner of you Papistes is to affirme things very strongly but when ye shold proue them then are ye exceeding weake and can bring forth naught but poore stuffe Ye are as able to proue these things which ye affirme as I am to remoue mountaines Pa. We may say so of you more rightly because you affirme much and proue litle I am able for to make good all that which I haue spoken Pro. Are you content to make triall who bring strongest proues if ye be let me heare how ye can disproue our faith and afterward I will show what I haue to disproue yours so it shall be séene which hold the Catholike faith and which be heretickes Pa. I am very well content tell me what I shall begin withall Pro. Begin with those things which ye affirmed euen now proue that our doctrine is new that you beleeue as all the forefathers did that our doctrine doth condemne all our forefathers and euery wise man will graunt that yours is the Catholike faith if ye cannot proue this then confesse that your doctrine is come from the father of lies and not from the God of truth For there is but one truth which is Gods word all other doctrines are of the diuell Pa. If that faith which you beleeue and doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued and knowne in the daies of our forefathers but it was not heard of in their daies neither was it knowne vntill such time as Luther did set it abroach Therefore the proudest heretike of ye all shall neuer be able to shew that it is of antiquitie Pro. Here are ruffling words the proudest heretike of thē al is not proud enough to deale with you but indeede if your proud conceipt were no sturdier then your argument yee might easily be dealt withall I confesse your Maior or first proposition of your argument to be true which is this if the doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued in the daies of our forefathers But your second which is this that our faith doctrine was not heard of in the dayes of the forefathers vntill Luther did set it abroch is most false for our doctrine is the holy word of God deliuered to the Church by the Apostles Prophets We beléeue as Adam Seth
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
meaning thereof from your Church and although we haue the most cleare testimonies of the Scriptures against you yet ye set light thereby and all because your Church cannot erre and you expound them otherwise Therefore there is by your doctrine no rule left for a man to build his faith vppon but the exposition of the gouernours in the Church Aunswere me directly vnto this were there not false Prophetes in olde time among the people of the Iewes Pa. The Scripture doth shew that there were somtime a great number at once and the Church of God did euer condemne them Pro. But tell me how did the people know who were the true Prophets and who were the false the one side commeth and they say thus saith the Lord no saith the other side that is false thus saith the Lord quite contrary to the other and not only at some times a multitude of false Prophets against one true seruant of God but also the high Priestes and other Priests and gouernours in the Church taking part with them against the true Prophet Where was then your golden rule which ye would haue the common sort to measure their faith by I beleeue as the Church beleeueth I cannot iudge I must not meddle with the meaning of the Scriptures Pa. Proue this which you haue sayd it is an easie matter to affirme and you are ready to doe that but your proofes come slowly Can you shew that the high Priests and gouernours in the Temple did ioyne with the false prophets against the true Prophet Pro. They come a little faster then you would gladly haue them or else you would not be so calme if there were but a little matter of colour against vs for want of proofe you would set vp your bristles by and by and you would crowe but when the matter brought out doth choke ye then ye say there is nothing brought ye bid me proue that whē there were false Prophets and that sundry against one they had the Priests and rulers of the Church on their side Reade Ieremias the Prophet ye shall find the false Prophets against him and the Priests also and euen as you say against Luther and other which imbrace the holy Gospell they be heretikes the Pope cannot erre so say they for themselues against Ieremias Iere. 18. come let vs imagine some deuise against him for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor the counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophete Were the godly people now which forsooke the Priests Iere. 1. Princes and Prophets and gaue eare to Ieremias apostats Did not the Lord tell him at the first when he sent him that he should haue the people the Priests and Princes against him Also ye may see it very fully and plainely expressed Iere. 20. that Pashur the Priest which was appointed chiefe in the house of God did smite Ieremias and put him in the stockes when hee heard him prophesie here was a right Pope a stoute Bishop that durst set Gods Prophet in the stockes This thing is set foorth in sundry places of the Prophets how the Priests the false Prophetes were linked together against the true messengers of the Lord. For ye may see how the Priests and Prophets and people lay hold on Ieremias Iere. 26. and would haue put him to death for the Priests Prophets accused Ieremias before the Princes that hee was worthy of death Eze. 22. The Prophet Ezechiel also complaineth grieuously of the Priestes and the Prophets Also long before the time of Ieremias Ezechiel the Lord complayned of the Priestes and Prophetes for their wickednesse For thus he saith by Mica Mica 3. the Princes iudge for bribes the Priests teach for reward and the Prophets do prophesie for money Behold also what God complaineth against the Priests and Prophetes euen in the dayes of the most godly king Iosia as ye may reade in the Prophet Sophanie Sopha 3. Likewise where the holy Ghost sheweth the cause of the great destruction which came vpon Hierusalem 2. Chro. 36 he saith that al the chiefe Priests and people committed many transgressions according to all the abhominations of the heathen and defiled the house of God which he had sanctified in Hierusalem how God sent vnto them his Prophetes but they would not heare them See then if the wickednesse of the Priests draw the Lord out of his Temple vnto which he had made so glorious promises and which he had chosen to be the place where he would be worshipped shall we now tie him to that chaire from which there haue come the most horrible villanies against God almost that euer were committed in the world shall we say that the most pure most holy God hath fastened himselfe to the mother of whoredomes and abominations Pa. Ye take great paines to small profit for a man may in a word ouerthrow all that you haue built ye haue shewed how the Priestes and gouernours in the Temple did corrupt their wayes and ioyned with the false Prophetes against the true messengers of the Lord. You gather out of this that there was no rule left in the Church for the people to trie the worship and seruice of God by but this conclusion of yours doth not follow because the corruption of maners and withstanding the true Prophets did not hinder but that they remayned still the Church and the worship appointed in the Temple was not to be despised for if any did forsake it they were indeed Apostats for whē they were euen at the worst Christ sendeth such as he had cleansed of the leprosie to shew themselues to the Priest and to offer the gift which Moses had commanded This must needes be so for otherwise how should that saying of Christ Math. 18. dic ecclesiae tell the Church be a perpetuall rule to all the people if there be once no Church visible to tell that cause vnto where is then the doctrine and precept of Christ Here therefore I say still ye be heretikes and apostats insomuch as ye haue departed frō the holy mother the Church ye haue forsaken the fellowship of the faithfull that which ye pretend the abuses of the Church is no excuse at all for will ye forsake your mother because she wanteth perfect beauty or because there is some deformity in her the abuses are to be reformed the thing must not be destroyed I would wish ye therfore to returne and to submit your selues againe and not to cast away your soules for ye be all damned heretickes which be out of the Church Pro. The breath of your mouth is very strong when as with one blast ye are able to ouerthrow whatsoeuer a man can bring out of the word of God But ye deceiue your selfe greatly for Gods truth will stand when you shall fall Your poore and silly shifts wil stand ye in no steed you make your reason after this maner when the Priests were
certaintie to trie the trée and to know it by the fruite And hath the spirit which made them and preserueth them so lost his power and are his qualities and operations so weake that he cannot bée discerned from the spirit of the diuell Are his fruites such as they cannot be discerned from the rotten fruites of the flesh and the workes of darknes Ephes 1. Rom. 8. Saint Paul saith that we are sealed with the holy spirit of promise he willeth mē to walke after the spirit not after the flesh he setteth forth the fruites of the flesh Galath 5. and the fruites of the spirit Rom. 8. He saith that this spirit doth beare witnesse vnto our spirit that we are the sonnes of God This should bee but a weake witnesse if wee should not bée able to know whether we haue him or not But perhaps all these scriptures many other which I could cite haue not light enough in them for your blind eyes and therefore I will shew ye the thing more fully thus A man heareth the word of God preached 1. Cor. 12. it striketh his heart and conuerteth him wheras before he was as blind as a béetle now he séeth the light whereas before he had no loue to the holy word of God now his hart is inflamed with zeale and delight in it whereas before his care was of this world couetousnes did cause him gréedily to séeke vnlawfull gaine now his mind is bent vpon heauenly things and after them he séeketh whereas before he was full of adulteries riot wantonnes vanity now his wicked affections are tamed and altered he much abhorreth such filthines and whereas before he could neuer cease doing euill he was neuer at ease but when he delighted himselfe in some vngodlinesse now he is a man quite changed he doth much lament and sorrow that euer he was so wicked to despise God all his ioy is now to doe good workes the feare of God is before his eyes now féeling this wonderfull chaunge in himselfe that he is new borne to God that he is a new creature he knoweth right well that he is lead by the holy spirit of GOD and that he hath wrought this new worke in him Pa. It seemeth by your talke that such as haue receiued the spirit are so sure that they cannot be deceiued To what purpose then was Saint Paul so carefull to warne the true Christians to take heede yea we may see that there were diuers of them seduced This is quite contrarie to that certaintie which you doe speake of Pro. There is no cōtrariety in these things for if any were seduced and drawne away frō the truth vnto destruction it is most certaine they were neuer sealed with the spirit but had some small taste He laboureth with the other to haue them grow strong to bee grounded and rooted in the trueth not to bée as children carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine for the blessed Apostle Saint Peter describing such false Teachers as you 2. Pet. 2. sheweth that they shall beguile vnstable soules Such therefore as will not bee seduced neither by you nor any other heretikes must abound in knowledge and grace for so wee are willed If the wisedome of the holy Ghost be in vs and hath inlightened vs the subtiltie of the diuell and the power of darknesse shall not ouercome vs the power of the holy Ghost is greater then the power of Satan and for this cause we are sure of victorie If this were not we could haue but small comfort we should he but in woe case It is not your greasie pope which could helpe vs which himselfe is ouercome of the diuell and obeyeth his will Pa. Well well for this matter I say still that your doctrine is new that ye condemne all our forefathers and whereas you would seeme to proue that it is the ancient Catholike faith because ye proue it by the Scriptures I say you proue nothing for the Scriptures can proue nothing without the interpretation of the Church you can not interprete neither can ye iudge but the great shepheard whose voyce ye should heare must giue the sense therefore I say still that ye be heretikes all the packe of yee and but that I spare ye I could bite ye a little better I am sorie ye bee so wilfull Pro. When ye haue spent all your powder then yée retire backe againe into your castle which is so sure as you suppose that nothing can batter the walles but when a man doth view them well he shall finde them to be but painted clothes For in very déed ye stand obstinately and frowardly vpon certaine bare affirmations And when a man hath neuer so strongly confuted and disproued them yet ye alleadge them still But let this go and come to the rest Ye say ye could but that ye spare me or els that ye are musled bite me a little better I feare not your teeth for I trust your biting will not ranckle not because they bée not venime but because I am so well defensed that ye cannot fasten your téeth vpon me But spare not powre out all your poyson and doe your worst Pa. Yee doe but gibe and mocke at those things which I speake it is euen according to your profession yee are deriders of good things and of the true Catholike faith take heede it is better for ye to repent and to turne home againe to the holy Church which ye haue and doe dishonour I said that I did spare ye and it shall appeare now for I will touch ye a little neerer and yet but with the trueth not with all that I might say neither for it were infinite to rehearse all your abominable waies which ye walke in and are to bee charged withal A little shall suffice I say by your wicked and carnall doctrine euen your new Gospell ye teach all loosenes and licentious libertie to the flesh As for example ye denie the merits of good workes ye teach that men are iustified by faith without good deeds ye teach Election and Predestination and denie freewill and so by this meanes the people are brought to haue no care of good workes but to liue as they lust for thus it doth follow if we be iustified by faith alone what neede we care for good workes If we bee chosen and predestinate and haue no freewill left in vs to chuse or refuse then let God alone wee cannot further nor hinder our selues what should wee eare let vs then set cocke a hoope and take our pleasure while we be here this is your sweet doctrine thus ye teach Pro. I néede not maruell to heare ye threaten to bite me whē ye dare open your mouth to blaspheme the Lord God and to barke like a most filthie and prophane dogge against the most glorious Gospell of Christ Which howsoeuer ye belie it doth teach all heauenly puritie and care of good workes They bée conclusions of your owne
make a very liberall accusation of great and foule matter although ye say it would be too long to recite the particulars to intreate vpon them yet ye may name them Pro. In few words I may name some if that will pleasure ye our carnall protestants are couetous greedie worldlings craftie in their dealings to séeke all aduantages against those with whom they deale full of vsurie and briberie and these things are also in you our carnall Gospellers are very fowle mouthed in slaunderings railings ribaldries and horrible othes these things ye make no cōscience of Our carnall protestants are giuen ouer to spend their time in gluttonies drinkings vaine pleasures and vnlawfull exercises these are your veniall sinnes and whosoeuer will not runne with ye to powre out themselues in the same excesse of riot they are precise fooles more nice then wise they do it but of vaine glorie and singularitie Pa. Ye may bee ashamed to charge vs with such things seeing our Church hath alwaies vsed so sharp discipline vpon such offenders you may iustly be charged because ye let loose the raines vnto all vices yee giue the flesh the swinge yee haue no discipline among ye to make men stand in awe Pro. We may be ashamed to speake truth of you but you must not once blush at the matter when ye blaspheme the glorious Gospell of Christ and why onely because ye are past shame but let your words goe and come to your matter You may not in no case bée blamed for such vices which haue alwayes holden men in awe with sharpe discipline and corrected the offenders It is well knowne to al wise mē what your discipline was true it is that ye did hold men wonderfully in awe but of whom not of God but of the Romish prelate No man durst wagge his finger against him no man might once finde fault with any of his dirtie inuentions vnder paine of his extreme and heauie curse But each man might liue as he lust in all vices against God onelie he must confesse his sinnes to the priest and receiue a certaine penance to fast certaine daies or to goe on pilgrimage to some Saint or to haue the Popes pardon for a péece of money not onely for his sinnes past but also for those which he should afterward commit Others when they had committed some horrible sinnes must whip themselues and so at it againe Thus your holy pope did open the gate to all vncleannes and therefore in the Scriptures is called the man of sinne Pa. This seemeth very strange to me how penance and correction should open the gate vnto all sin It seemeth by your words that men would loue sinne the better because it should bee punished I would wish ye to be better aduised in your words for I could take ye in many such absurdities but I am almost ashamed to recite them they bee so childish trifles to come from any one of your coate which professe learning But let me see how you shut vp the gate against sinne which inioyne no penance or correction It is a world to see the vanity of mens minds which perswade themselues that they can make men beleeue the crow is white alas your poore Sophistrie is not able to doe this Yet I perceiue ye haue some grace in ye for I trow ye blush Pro. It would make any man blush I trow to be taken in such a trip and so to ouer-shoote himselfe as I haue done by affirming that your discipline did open the gate vnto al sinne For can such sharpe penance as to fast three daies together with bread and water or to go bare footed to our Ladie of Walsingame or for a man to whip himselfe vntill the blood follow or to giue ten shillings for a pardon make men loue sinne the better This geare I trow would scarre them and make them to haue little lust to sinne Oh no good sir this is nothing so sharpe as hell fire men finde such a swéete taste in sinne that if they may escape so they will not care The adulterer hath such pleasure in his vncleane lust that he will to it againe if he may be perswaded it be but a whipping matter The drunkard will haue one pot of ale the more if he may heale the matter againe by drinking a cup of water The enuious and hatefull man will haue one fling at his enemie if a payre of old angels will dispatch the matter and procure his pardon at the hands of the holy father and so in each sinne O yée holy hell-hounds here is your sharpe discipline by which ye giue liberty vnto men to turne back to vncleannes euen as a dogge to his vomite But while wee reproue your discipline wée haue none our selues and so we doe but play the Sophisters which would take vpon them to proue that the crow is white Sir before I come to our discipline I say our doctrine is this that vnder paine of Gods curse and eternall damnation men must returne from their wicked waies and not returne vnto them againe they must giue vp themselues wholly to serue God in all good workes As for the discipline of our Church thus sharp it is that the obstinate sinner is to be cut off frō the congregation to be deliuered vp vnto satan not to he receiued in again vntil such time as he hath declared very apparant tokens of déepe sorow harty repentance Let al men iudge whether this be not to shut vp the gate against sinne Pa. Now you may very well be likened vnto a man that will make great brags of his riches when he is nothing worth A marueilous sharpe discipline ye speake of but I pray ye where shal a mā find it euē in your Spirituall courts for there a mā if the officer cannot get his fee shall be cursed to the diuell throwne out of the church yea so seuerely that he shall not be receiued in againe before he come weeping vntill the teares drop out of his purse O yee dissolute teachers of libertie and maintainers of iniquitie cease your bragging of those things which are not among ye Pro. Your blasphemous tongue will neuer cease vnlesse it be cut out of your head doo we teach libertie doe wee maintaine iniquitie Admit your saying bee true yet I pray you how slenderly doe you reason when yée say that a mā is excommunicated for money and receiued in againe for money although they doe not repent and therefore your Gospell giueth libertie to sinne Oh good sir Christ and his Gospell allow no such thing if men doe offend doe not you therefore blame the trueth for there is no equitie nor good dealing in that What though we haue not the discipline of the Gospell in our Church here in this land so whole and sound as it should bee yet because wee allow it wee pray for it wee thirst after it wee confesse the want thereof we ought not to be charged as those which
it to abolish it and yet doth still breake forth as bright and pure as before So soone as Christ was borne persecution arose and the children were cruelly murthered Paul and the rest of the Apostles do not so soone go foorth to preach Matth. 2. but the false prophets are at their héeles Cease therfore ye wicked wretches to blaspheme Christ and his Gospell because such things follow they bée not the fruits of the Gospell nor they doe not spring out of it but they be the enemies thereof which do alwaies pursue it Make a reconciliation betwéene Christ and the diuell if yée will haue the Gospell go quietly Now let a wise man way this reason the word of God which is the word of saluation of life of grace our light our shield the foode of our soules can not be set forth but there follow troubles and errors therfore it is good to kéepe it vnknowne and not to let the people haue any sight thereof All the world may see that ye haue conspired with the diuell are become instruments to fulfill his desire for he couereth by those euils to banish the trueth and to holde men in blindnes and all kinde of errors which they bée by nature full of and so to bring all to hell and you performe his will in crying out against the sacred Scriptures and seeking to burie them Pa. Nay you haue consulted with the diuell like vnnaturall children to seeke the ouerthrow of your mother the holy Church and to dishonour the vicar of Christ Pro. We bring all our consultation out of Gods holy word for the vpholding and maintaining of our holy mother the true Catholike Church and spouse of Christ against the filthie whore of Babylon and against Antichrist the great vicar of hell Pa. I may say the like against your side and so we may play at Tenice vntill we bee both wearie and part as wise as we began Pro. I say nothing against yout but that which the word of GOD doth plainly shew You haue no colour to say the like against vs sauing that your shameles faces haue made ye bolde to speake all kinde of lyes Pa. Great brags ye make of prouing out of the Scriptures Where doe the Scriptures tell ye that the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist You can make the Scriptures serue for your turne in any matter whatsoeuer Pro. Wée brag no more of the Scriptures then that which is manifestlie prooued by them we make them serue none other turne then the Lorde hath appoynted them for The Scriptures doe not in flat speeches say that the Pope or the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist yet neuerthelesse they set a brand vpon his forehead and describe him in such sort that euery man which hath eyes may easily know him and as perfectly know him to be Antichrist as a man may know an egge to be an egge Pa. I haue read the Scriptures and know what they speake concerning Antichrist and yet could neuer finde that brand which you speake of nor such a description as should paint out the Pope to be Antichrist You are marueilous fellowes you can make somewhat of nothing you are so cunning that ye can draw water out of a flint Pro. You haue read the Scriptures and so haue your fellowes euen all the Popish shauelings and ye know they speake of Antichrist whom you beléeue shal come you cannot find that brand or marke or such a description of Antichrist as should belong to the Pope and that causeth ye to pronounce that wee make somewhat of nothing c. because it is not like that so many great Cardinals Bishops Abbots Monkes and Friers should reade and reade againe in the Scriptures and not sée the Pope to be Antichrist if he be so marked that he may easily bee knowne This may seeme strange but I tell yée it is no marueile for yée are all blinde as béetles The Scribes the Pharisies the Sadduces and all the learned among the Iewes did reade Moses the Prophets and studied them deuoutly looked for the Messias which was promised and described there and yet when he came they were so farre off from knowing him that they did kill him and fulfilled the voyces of the Prophets euen so fareth it with you ye reade what maner of one Antichrist should be and what he should doe and yet ye are so blinde that ye fulfill it in helping him to murther the Saints The Iewes could not know Christ because they looked for a trim Christ and he came base and poore You haue also deuised a popish fable of Antichrist which doth so sticke in your heads that ye cannot sée the notes and marks of the very Antichrist indéede Pa. Goe to goe to let vs see your great skill and what your scriptures will be whereby ye will shew this thing I feare me we shall haue but slender conclusions Pro. When ye haue tried them then giue iudgement and so although yee should iudge falsly yet yee shall not bee altogether so rash Will ye confesse that S. Paul 2. Thess 2. and S. Iohn in the Reuelation doe describe and set forth Antichrist Pa. That I will for I suppose no man will denie it but what are ye the better that which S. Paul doth speake and that which Saint Iohn hath written as concerning Antichrist may more fitly be applied to you then to vs. Pro. If it may as fitly be applied to vs as to you nay I will say further if it may be applied to any but to you let vs be counted heretikes Pa. Saint Paul sayth that the day of the Lord should not come except there came first an apostasie or falling away Doth not this touch you Let al men iudge who are fallen away we or you Are we fallen from you or you from vs Haue we made the departing or haue you Our Church hath alwaies stood fast and vnmoueable you haue rent your selues from vs by what reason can any man say that they haue made the apostasie which haue alwaies and do still keepe their standing and not rather those which are gone out from vs to fulfill that which S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. They went out from vs because they were not of vs. Pro. You would shift this thing from your selues and lay it vpon vs but it cleaueth so fast to your hands that it will not off Ye goe about by a subtill cauillation to bléere the eyes of simple men Wee confesse wee haue made the departure from you and not you from vs because you had departed from the trueth and true Church and had led vs out of the way of trueth vnto which wée are now agayne by Gods gracious goodnesse returned You say your Church hath alwaies stoode stedfast and vnmoueable and therefore hath not made the departing It is true if wee respect place and succession of Bishops but what doth that help ye when ye are departed from the faith which thing ye might and haue done without
he is God is there any other there which beareth this likenes Peraduēture ye wil say this was fulfilled in some of the Emperors which would be taken for God Yea sir but there was none of the wicked Emperors which did sit in the tēple of God Neither was there any of them which did seduce the world by lying wonders Wée must find such an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings Emperors which sitteth in the Temple of God seduceth by myracles But perhaps he shall arise at Rome hereafter and is not yet come Surely then let vs neuer looke for him if we think there shal arise one at Rome which shall bee lifted vp higher then the Pope or doe more fained myracles and lying wonders then he hath Moreouer tell me this is there any man so simple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation Reuel 17. where the Angel doth shew the mistery of the woman which he calleth the great whore and of the beast which beareth her that wil not by by confesse that séeing Rome is that whore borne vp with the scarlet coloured beast with seuen heads the Pope also must néeds be Antichrist for he is one of the heads of the beast The heads of the beast being seuen are saith the Angel seuen Kings where should they reign At Rome Fiue saith he are fallen one is another is to come Seuen kinds of gouernmēts in Rome whereof it is wel knowen fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote One was thē standing which was the Empire And the seuenth or last should shortly follow Where is he that hath risen at Rome to be the seuenth last of these kings if it be not the Pope O ye foolish Papists haue ye come thus far as to cōfesse that Rome is Babylon which is the great whore so tel men where they must séek for Antichrist And wil ye denie the Pope to be the beast Why they be ioined together Shew vs some other vpon whō we may sée the brand which the scripture hath set vpon Antichrist We now by that which you haue granted and confessed must not looke for him elswhere but at Rome vntill ye can shew vs some other there we sée none so like him as the Popes holines If ye can shew any other put men out of doubt Pa. Doth the Scripture say that Antichrist should bee at that place which is called Babylon Where find ye any such thing It was called Babylon for the great wickednes of the citie not because Antichrist should reigne there Againe where yee take the interpretation of seuen heads to be seuen kings in Rome as you say seuen kinds of gouernment fiue were fallen one was which is the Empyre one was to come which say you must needs be the Pope for hee hath reigned in the last place Yea but ye sayd fiue were fallen to giue place to the sixt should not then the sixt also fall to giue place to the seuenth How then is your interpretation true seeing the Empire hath stood euer since Pro. Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel set forth the same Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe which he calleth the beast which all the world should wonder after and worship Doth he not set forth the whore sitting vpon the beast Is not the whore by you confessed to be Rome will ye haue the beast to beare her and not to be at the same place the beast that riseth out of the bottomles pit and killeth the saints Reuel 11. Where shal their bodies lie in the stréets doth he not say in the stréets of the great citie which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt afterward in the seuentéenth chapt he calleth it the great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth is it not all one beast which he speaketh of al one citie doth it not follow that where he shall kill there be shal raigne and as for the other thing which ye take exception against I confesse the Empire did still retaine the name and was not quite cast down neuertheles it was not indéede an empire when the Emperors themselues were brought downe so farre in subiection to the Pope as to haue him tread in their necke and to hold his stirrops Pa. If the Pope were Antichrist as you would make men beleeue then what became of the Church all that while when men beleeued in him when he raigned you confesse a thousand yeres or there about since the Bishop of Rome had the soueraignty Would God forsake his Church a thousand yeres or eight hundreth yeeres is it like that God which is so gracious and merciful would cast off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres and suffer to perish O how hard harted are you how vnreuerently minded against our ancestors how vnkind children so to iudge of the fathers let them beleeue ye that will ye be al heretikes I will keepe me to the ancient faith Pro. Now ye returne to your old fortresse againe yee suppose that ye haue some of those poore soules in hand which yee may seduce because they are ignorant Ye can lay forth this matter so pitifully among them that ye can make them euen wéepe again But when ye come among such as haue vnderstanding out of Gods word and know the state of the Church they laugh at your follie This is a great question what became of that Church we answere as the scripture telleth vs Reue. 17. the beast the dragon did persecute murther the seruants of God The whore of Babylon was drunken with the blood of the saints Reuel 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes God did neuer forsake his Church one day much lesse a thousand or 8. hundreth yéeres it doth not follow that because Antichrist was exalted in the church therefore the church was vtterly forsaken and destroied Although corruptions came into the church apace for the space of this 8. hundreth or a thousand yeres yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable estate nothing so corrupted as within these 5. or 6. hundreth yeres which space we may indéed ascribe to the reign of Antichrist and yet euen in this space he could neuer vtterly destroy the Church for the most gracious God did preserue that litle remnant which was his and none did perish but those which loued not the trueth and therfore God did send them strong delusion to beleeue lies None but those which worshipped the beast and wondered after the beast and receiued the marke of the beast whose names were not written in the booke of life We reuerence our godly fathers shew no vnkindnesse towards them Pa. I will deale with ye then vpon your owne confession ye grant that for the space of fiue or sixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned and the trueth suppressed Where was the Church for this space this is a long time will ye condemne all the world for the
space of these fiue hundred yeres It ye can shew any fathers in the Church which were godly and denyed the Pope shew them Or will ye speake of a church which ye can shewe no members of such folly there is in a number of yee Pro. Answere you to a question of mine and I wil giue you an answere by and by to yours when saint Iohn sayth Reuelation 13. All the world followed the beast power was giuen him to make warre with the Saints and to ouercome them And againe when all both smal and great rich poore bonde frée were compelled to receiue a marke and none might buy sel but those which had the marke or name of the beast or the number of his name Tell me where was the true Church then whē this was fulfilled whether were al those condemned or not if they returned not by repentance which worshipped the beast or had his marke Saint Iohn sayth they were killed with the sword not a temporall sworde Where then shall we in these times séeke out the godly fathers but such as were persecuted by the beast Of these there be histories which shew in all times that there were some Pa. I may soone answere your question by shewing your great ignorance He sayth all the world worshipped the beast and you will needes haue it to be the Church is there no difference betweene these two You must proue such a generall falling away of the whole church and not of the world God hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world and therefore that can not fall away Did the beast which S. Iohn speaketh of cause all the Church to worship him If you can shew that then ye proue somewhat Pro. Here is a blind shift brought in to answere the question which I demand He sayth say you al the world you will haue it al the Church I do not say that any part of the Church did fall away if we vnderstand by the Church those which are the elect of God and the true members of Christs body for these can neuer be seduced to follow the beast Christ hath promised to be with these to the end of the world But when by the Church wee vnderstand all those companies which do professe Christ outwardly those may be seduced and fall from the truth being but the outward visible Church and these are here by S. Iohn called the world which thing is manifestly to be proued thus those nations people where the beast should reigne or which follow the beast are called the world now it is manifest that the beast being the same Antichrist which S. Paul setteth forth should reigne in the Church for he must sit in the Temple of God It is therefore also as manifest that the visible Church is called in that place the world The other nations of the world did not follow the beast But if any will be so wilfull peruerse as not to sée plainely by this that the beast shuld beare sway ouer the nations which were the visible church let thē further cōsider that S. Iohn doth plainly affirme that the beast should make war with the saints ouercome them If hee shall make war with the saints and ouercome them where shall he then raigne but in the visible Church the true saints of God shal not raign in the visible church outwardly for he shall outwardly ouercome them O wicked enemies and vpholders of the beast which because he hath for a time gotten the vpper hand in the Church ouer the saints would haue him continue so still for euer Pa. If a man should grant all that which you say that there should be a falling away in the church yet this is not likely that God would suffer the grea test part and almost all to perish For what a fewe haue those been which haue resisted the Pope in respect of those that haue ioyned with him Pro. This is a very foolish obiection especially to those which consider the state of Gods Church at all times in the world what a fewe were the séed of Abraham in respect of al other nations of the world whom God cast off many hundred yeeres what a few were they among the séede of Abraham which continued good in respect of those which did degenerate What a few were there in the Church when Christ came which were faithful it appeareth they were very fewe Pa. There be sundry things spoken by S. Paul concerning that Antichrist which should come and likewise by S. Iohn which cannot agree to the pope as for exāple the one doth say that the Lord shall destroy him with the breath of his mouth Where hath that been fulfilled in the pope the other sayth that Antichrist should continue but a short time he also setteth forth the time to be three daies and a halfe How absurdly then is this applyed to the Bishop of Rome which hath continued euer since the Apostles by succession Who is able to denie this I am afraid Antichrist if he be not yet come among you will come shortly for you are euen his forerunners Pro. Sundry things there are say you spoken by S. Paul and by S. Iohn concerning Antichrist which cannot agrée to the Pope And for example ye name two the one that it is said the Lord shal destroy him with the breath of his mouth the other that he should continue but a little while as namely thrée daies and an half These things agrée right wel to the Pope although this latter might séem to be otherwise for a thousand yeres if we respect it according to men is a long time but with the Lord it is but as yesterday Fiue or six hundred yeres by it selfe is somwhat but cōpared with eternity it is but a little so although we grant that it is almost a thousand yéeres since the Bishop of Rome was exalted so high yet it is but a while But say you the time is limitted thrée dayes an half is it possible that any man should reade the things vttered cōcerning Antichrist what he should doe and the same also set out by sounding of seuen Trumpets Reuela 16. in seuerall ages in which it is apparant he should continue that can bee so ignorant as to take it of common daies not euery day to containe many yeres are the wéekes in Daniel to be taken for seuen naturall dayes to the wéeke Daniel 9. when it is certaine that the seuen wéekes did containe almost fiue hundred yeres Ye are ouer foolish to make this cauil Where as ye say the Bishop of Rome hath continued euer since the time of the Apostles therefore it could not be vnderstood of him it is very true that there hath bin a succession of Bishops there euer since but yet not of such Bishops for sixe hundreth yeres after Christ were past before the Bishop of Rome was takē to be vniuersal Bishop and head of the
wee condemne it and hate it more then you do And although ye goe about to abuse and wrest the scriptures against vs yet ye shall neuer bee able to driue any true Catholike from the right pure and deuout worship of God Pro. Will ye confesse if I proue that you are Idolaters that yours is the false Church and that ye are fallen away from the trueth that the Pope is Antichrist Pa. I must needes confesse that Idolaters are fallen from the trueth but where as ye make offer to proue that we commit Idolatrie I say still wee be the furthest frō it of all other And in this I think my selfe sufficiently armed to stand against all the heretikes in the world proue what ye can Pro. Al those which worship idols are condemned in the holy Scriptures to be idolaters But it seemeth you Papists doe not worship idols at least ye would beare men in hand ye doe not when as in very déede ye doe it in most shamefull maner Where hath it euer béene heard of that men haue more doted vpō stocks and stones then the Papists Wil ye stil then be past shame and say you hate idolatrie you are furthest from it of all other Pa. I say still and neede not be ashamed that it is the blindnesse of you heretikes which either cannot or will not see that ours is no Idolatrie This sin of Idolatrie is where they worship Idols wee haue images of the true God of the blessed Virgin of the Apostles and of other Saints wee haue no idols of feined and false Gods wee worship not the images themselues neither but the things which are by them represented Moreouer we doe not giue latria to the images of Saints but dulia which God in the scriptures doth neuer condemne I say therefore ye helpe vs when ye say we worship stocks and stones or that we worship any besides the true God You are the idolaters your selues Pro. You would faine purge and cléere your selues from idolatrie and therefore ye haue deuised these distinctions first ye would make a difference betwéene Idoll and Image yours are Images but not Idols Secondly ye shift the matter that ye do not worship the Images themselues but that which the Image doth put ye in minde of And last of all your déepe distinction betwéene latria which is worship which ye giue onely to God and dulia which is seruice which ye bestow vpon the Saints I will lay open how vaine these things are and yet how they be subtill to deceiue poore ignorant soules Pa. I know your answers well enough ye take vpon ye to defend that an Idoll and an Image are all one And so when it is said God made man after his owne Image yee may translate it after his owne Idoll It may be said of the picture image of the prince this is the princes Idoll Likewise if a painter paint an image of a dog ye may say this is an Idoll of a dog Ah Sirs this is ouer grosse ye shew by this what your skill is in other things Pro. Now must ye néeds win the spurres because wee say that Image and Idoll is all one sauing that the one is Greeke and the other Latin Ye say thē we must say God made man after his owne Idoll which were very grosse I confesse that in our tongue it were grosse indéed because the word Idoll is by common vse of spéech taken alwaies in euill part but in the Gréeke tongue it was not so But I will come néerer vnto ye to shew your deceitfull dealing in this shall wee desire a better iudge in this matter then the Hebrew tongue in the scriptures in which it is said that God made man after his owne image and in which there is much spoken of idols What if I proue that hee vseth the same word where hee speaketh of idols which he vseth where hee saith God made man after his owne image Will there then be such a difference Pa. When I see this then I will beleeue it before I will not the Scriptures do speake of images it may be there is the same word But you must proue it where hee doth speake it of those which were idols indeed of the heathen of false gods Pro. I wil shew where he speaketh of idols indéed which were worshipped by the heathē and proue that he vseth the same word The word in Moses is Tselem after which Adam was created Gen. 1. Now looke where hee speaketh to the children of Israel by Moses to command them to break down the idols of the heathen and ye shall finde the same word As Numb 33. He saith ye shall destroy Tsalme Massecotham that is their moulten images In the 2. booke of Kings chap. 11. it is said They went into the house of Baal and brake downe his images which he calleth by the same name By this it doth appeare that in the holy scriptures there is no such difference betwéene idol and image as the Papists would beare men in hand For these were idols by their owne confession which yet are set forth vnder that same word which Moses vseth for the likenes of God after which man was created Pa. All this doth proue nothing for wee doe grant that which ye haue said Because idols be also images although euery picture and image bee not an idol for an idol is an image which is worshipped and taken to be God Pro. It doth proue this for which I did alleage it that the same word is in that tongue vsed indifferently for the image of GOD and for the idols of the heathen But because ye say it doth proue nothing séeing idols be images although euery image is not by and by an idol vnlesse it be worshipped Let me demand this Is not that which is forbidden to bee made in the Scriptures an idoll Pa. I know no man which doth deny but that is an idoll which the Scriptures do forbid But you must go further then that for ye must proue that those which the Scripture doth forbid are but called images and so images and idols to be all one Pro. Ye say right for those which the scripture condemneth we must cōfesse to be idols then if I proue that the scripture doth condēne images it must néeds follow that they be idols I require no more for it is manifest that the Scripture doth forbid all images of God as in Deuterono 4. there is forbidden not onely Semel but also Temnuah and Tabnith And in Esay 40. Demuth Who will bee so mad as to deny but that here are images forbidden and therefore that images are idols Pa. I see no cause why I should not deny it for they were also idols because they were made to be worshipped Pro. I sée no cause why I may not estéeme you to be obstinatly blinded Because in these places which I haue cited he doth not onely speake of the true GOD but also the reasons which are set downe
Saint Iohn saith to all the Christians 1. Iohn 4. Trie the spirites whether they be of God By your saying the people should not be able to trie them and so he would teach them that which did not belong vnto them Pa. What a trimme colour you set vppon the matter and how pretily ye can shift but I wil lay open your subtiltie To proue that the velearned people can iudge of doctrine preached you alledge the saying of Christ My sheepe heare my voyce c. I pray ye Sir if a man should demand of you whether he meaneth that this shall be immediatly or not and whether when he saith they shal be all taught of God doth he exclude the ministery of men or not I know ye will say the voyce of the great Shepeard is heard when those which he hath appointed to be shepheards do vtter his doctrine Ye will also say that although God teach yet he doth it by the ministery of men Then I answer that the vnlearned people are to heare the voyce of Christ from the Pope who is their great shepheard vnder Christ God doth teach them by him they are to sticke and cleaue to his determination of themselues they cannot iudge but they must doe it by him he must tell them which is the woolfe and which is the false Prophet they cannot tell which commeth with the true spirit or which spirit is of God but as he doth direct them And for this cause we say still that ye haue not the true Catholike faith nor the scriptures on your side nor the true sense because ye are gone from the only true expoūder of them Pro. All that I haue brought is but a colour and a prety shift and easily disclosed with one poore distinction of mediate immediate But I pray ye Sir how doth this hang together the voyce of the true shepheard is heard when it is vttered by men therefore the way to know it is by men God teacheth by men therfore God teacheth to discerne the spirits by men or if it be so must this needs follow that the Pope his Cleargy are those men which must do the déed This is a strange thing Christ Iesus S. Paule S. Peter S. Iohn others do foretell the people of false prophets the only way and remedy to auoyde them as you say is to hang vpon the Pope yet none of all these or any other hath so much as once noted it or tell the poore people by whose direction they might be safe in so extreame danger Pa. There was no neede so long as Christ or his Apostles liued to tell them so for they taught them this thing or how can you tell they did not they might though it be not written is all written which they did teach Pro. Here is mighty strong geare this were able to set vp a Pope if he were thrown down to reuiue him againe if he were hanged No maruell forsooth Christ nor his Apostles did not tell the people that the Pope and Church of Rome should be their refuge when heretickes shold séeke to seduce thē because there was no need so long as they liued this were somwhat if they had told only of the false teachers of their time but when they foretel the great dangers mischiefs which should be in the Church lōg after their dayes being aboue all things most chary of the safety of the same this were very absurd Acts. 20. not once to giue any note of the surest remedy S. Paul saith to the elders of the Church of Ephesus that he did know that after his departure there shold enter in grieuous wolues not sparing the flock there shold rise of thēselues which shold speake peruerie things and draw disciples after thē yet he speaketh of no remedy but that which was banished in your Church namely careful diligēt teaching for he saith therfore watch be mindful c. S. Peter saith as there were in times past false prophets amōg the people so shal there be false teachers amōg you 2. Pet. 2. and afterward he sheweth this remedy not willing them to hang their faith vppon his chaire or successor but to call to remembrance the words that had bene told them of the holy Prophetes and by the Apostles of Christ Saint Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. little children it is the last houre ye haue heard that Antichrist shal come I say there are already many Antichristes in the world and a litle after he telleth them how they shall escape the danger but saith he you haue receiued an annointing what from the Pope or his greasie oyle no but from the holy one and know all things Againe ye neede not saith he that any man teach ye but as the annoynting do teach ye Christ Iesus foretelleth Math. 24. that there should rise false Prophets and do such wonders that if it were possible euen the elect should be deceiued but that as his words do most plainely shew is vnpossible and why doth he say because I will leaue a vicar and as many as hang vppon his sleeue shall be safe not so but because God hath chosen them for he doth keepe them Iohn 10. and none is able to take them out of his hand He saith in another place Beware of false Prophetes which come vnto you in shéepes clothing but inwardly are rauening woolues and whereby shall men know them Math. 7. He sayeth by their fruits But how know we whether he did tell them so or not he might though it be not written alacke alacke Pa. I know your sect make but a scoffe at the traditions of the Apostles which were not cōmitted to writing but let that go it is but a folly to perswade those to beleeue which haue denied the faith and despise the Catholike Church Pro. The Pope of Rome hath a great chest ful of traditions which S. Peter did not put in writing but he hath whosoeuer doth not beleeue these hath denied the faith dispiseth the Catholike Church This is not your best way your best way is to stand to this that the Pope hath authority to decree what he wil so your traditions shall stand sure though they be flat against the word of God But I am content to let this go also and to returne to that which we had in hand and because I would haue the matter made a little more plaine I will demaund a question or two at your hands Was there not a Church in the world before the cōming of Christ Pa. Who doth deny that the Iewes were the Church and people of God Pro. Then tell me further whether had they the word of God or not to instruct them and to ground their faith vpon Pa. They had the bookes of Moses they had the bookes of the Prophets they were bidden to heare them Pro. Who were appointed in the Church to expound the law and the Prophets vnto
most corrupt either in maners or withstanding the true Prophets yet they remayned still the Church and the seruice and worship in the Temple was not to be despised if any did they were apostats This ye confirme by such as Christ hauing cleansed he sendeth to offer to the priests then by a perpetual rule which Christ gaue dic ecclesiae tel the Church Hereupō ye cōclude again that we be heretikes because we haue forsakē the Church of Rome where ye tel vs that the abuses shold not driue vs to do so we must not forsake our mother for some deformity and want of beauty I wil answer ye that this argument may easily be denied when you say those which did forsake the worship in the Temple were Apostats therefore those which forsake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apostats for to make this hold you must first proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome as he had then to the Temple and that he hath chosen Rome as he then chose mount Sion which ye shall neuer be able to do because it is most false And then ye must proue that your worship which you maintaine is that which God hath commanded and then doubtlesse hee that shall depart from that is an heretike For if any did depart from worshipping in the Temple hee was not an apostat for departing from wicked Priests but for refusing that which God had appointed him to do We depart not but from a den of theeues and from an heape of damnable errors and not from that which God hath commanded so Christ sendeth the Leapers which he had clensed to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moses which was to be done to be done no where but in the Temple where the Priests bare the sway The other reason which ye bring as a perpetuall rule of Christ dic ecclesiae tell the Church is of no value for although the rule be perpetual doth it therfore follow that it can alwayes bee put in practise Hath Christ by that rule where he saith if thy brother offend against thee reproue him if that do not serue take one or two with thee if he will not heare them tell the Church c. set downe that there shall be euer a true and visible Church which will correct the offenders How say ye to the Church of Israel in the dayes of the Prophet Elias 1. King 19. when he complained to God that they had killed his Prophets digged downe his Altars and that he only was left they sought his life God made him answere that he had a Church among them I haue left vnto me seuen thousand in Israel c. which Elias did not sée Where was Dic ecclesiae now become Must they bring their Dic ecclesiae to those which are fallen away from God will excōmunicate the children of God Iohn 9. as the Pharisies did the blind man Did he euer come vnto them to be absolued When your diuellish sinagogue do excommunicate vs we be the nigher vnto Christ It is true which ye say that the true Church must not be forsaken for certaine abuses but if the abuses be such as vtterly destroy the faith as yours are then is it no longer the Church of Christ but a company of wicked hell hounds and therefore ye do but loose your labour when you exhort vs to rerurne to your Church which is no mother of ours but she is the whore of Babylon which hath filled the earth with her fornications There are none blessed vnlesse they depart from her her wayes are the wayes of damnation Reuel 18. come out of Babylon sayth the Angell of our God Pa. I could answer ye againe with words but so I should but spend time neither doe I like of long circumstances without matter which is the fashion of you heretikes when ye haue no sound reasons then to make a shew of speech and fall to rayling Pro. You cannot abide words without matter neither can your meeke spirite tell which way to fall to rayling but let any indifferent man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors set forth and he will confesse that in many words there will be found little matter Take away your vntruthes slaunders and spitefull raylings there will be but a little left behind If we speake of you that which the Scriptures pronounce against you by and by we rayle Did Iohn Baptist rayle when he called the Pharisies Math. 3. The generation of Vipers But seeing ye ione matter let vs see it to proue our doctrine to be new ye must bring stronger reasons then that the Church of Rome for certaine hundred yeares hath not allowed it there is no point of our faith but it is farre more auncient then your popish decrees your bauld and doltish shift to driue vs onely to your exposition of the Scriptures is not worth a straw Gods holy spirit hath bestowed great gifts vpon his Church in these last dayes Proceed with your matter Pa. Nay you shall not so slylie conuey your selfe ye make smal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apostles Your exposition of the word began of late in Germany and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike Pro. Seeing ye must needes lie it is good to lie for somewhat all holy Doctors and Teachers from the Apostles are on your side this all doth signifie none For the very truth is as euery man that can reade their writings may see that they be except in a very few points all against ye sauing such holy diuels as within these latter times haue bene the Popes owne Doctors Our exposition is the same which the godly fathers before Antichrist had gotten the vpper seate in the Temple did vse therefore Catholike although your mother disallow it Pa. Nay heretickes be liers we say the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our side we succeede them we honour loue and commend them more then you we pray for their helpe you seeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them let all the world be iudge whose side they are like to be of ours or yours when we haue them in so great and high estimation and you set so light by them Can we bee fallen from them as you say being so readie to doe them all the homage we can our hearts do witnesse that we do it in simplicity Moreouer all your matter is not worth a straw which ye haue brought out of the Church of the Iewes ye haue shewed that in Israel Elias could see no Church that in the Temple the Priests and false Prophets did conspire against the true messengers of the Lord. This were somewhat if you could shew it in our Church vnto which Christ hath made his promise neuer to forsake it but to giue it his spirite
to the worlds ende Your matter is too weake to ouerthrow so great and manifest truth Pro. It is indeed a certaine and sure thing that heretikes will lie and therefore you Papists whose Religion is a very hotch potch dunghill of all grosse heresies will not sticke at that But here is a great reason brought to proue that the holy Saints of God are on your side and not on ours The holy Fathers are like as all men may iudge to be on their side which succeede them which do most loue them honour them and commend them but therein who knoweth not that ye go beyond vs which ye accuse to deface their honor And therefore they be on your side and must néedes take you to be their speciall friends Indeede we confesse that you do giue that honour to the Saints which we deny them and therefore ye seeme to loue them more then we But when the matter cōmeth to the due triall euery man shall easily perceiue that it doth not therefore follow that they be on your side because it is no true loue nor right honor which ye giue vnto them nor such indeed as they can in any wise accept of for when as all their delight and ioy was that God alone should be worshipped and haue all his whole honor reserued to himselfe how can they take it well at your hands when ye play the arrant théeues and most villanously robbe God to giue vnto them Are there any good mē heare in earth which would bee content to see theeues spoyle other mens goods and to bring the same to them if not how should the blessed Virgin the holy Apostles other Saints of God count those sacrilegious wretches to be their friends which rob and spoyle God of his honor and thrust Christ from his office to bestow vpon them No those honor them which follow their steps in giuing all honor to God they loued and held the truth which was dearer to them then their liues and therefore are on their side which walke in the truth Moreouer your loue and honour which you giue and bestow vpon them is euen such as the wicked Apostates among the Iewes did bestow vpon the holy Prophets of God Thus Christ speaketh Woe be vnto you Scribes Pharisies Math. 23. ye Hypocrites because you build the Sepulchers of the Prophets garnish the Tombes of the righteous and ye say if we had bene in the dayes of our Fathers we would not haue bene partakers with them in the bloud of the Prophets Will you say that these did loue the Prophets which did so much hate Christ did they honour the Prophets and dishonour Christ Euen such are you ye honor the holy Saints of old but if they were aliue on earth ye would murder them In the next place you make that to be nothing which I alleadge concerning the Church of the Iewes ye require that I should shew some such thing in your Church What say ye to this 2. Thes 2. that S. Paule saith there should be a falling away the man of sinne should be set vp Reuel 13. And when Saint Iohn speaking of the same apostasie saith that all the world wondered and followed the beast And againe in the same Chapter he sayth that whosoeuer would not worship the Image of the beast they should be killed Reuel 13. and he caused all both small and great rich and poore bond and free to receiue a make in their right hand or in their forehead And that none might buy or sell but he which hath the marke or the name of the beast or the number of his name Ye wil not deny also but that which Saint Iohn speaketh of the woman persecuted by the Dragon Reuel 12. is meant of the Church for the place doth plainely interprete it selfe when he saith in the last verse of the Chapter That the Dragon was wrath and went and made warre against the remnant of her seede which keepe the commandements of God and haue the testimony of Iesus Behold how he sheweth there that this Church should be nourished in the wildernesse for a time times and halfe a time from the presence of the Dragon Where was then the visible Church Where was now dic ecclesiae tell the Church if ye will vnderstand it so fully Pa. Must those things needs be expounded against vs Can it not be taken but against the Church of Rome Pro. That Prophesie of S. Paule of the apostasie by the man of sinne and the description of the kingdome of Antichrist by S Iohn in the Reuelation cannot with any shew be turned vppon any other saue the Pope and his Cleargie But I will come vnto this thing more particularly afterward Ye cannot now deny but that there might be and was so great decay of truth by Antichrist that a man could not alwayes see a visible gouernement of the Church séeing Antichrist was the head and al things were done at his will appointment Pa. You would make the world beleeue what you list but let them beleeue ye that will It is a like matter that God wold forsake the Church so many hundred yeares suffer all our forefathers which were better then we to be deceiued and to perish No no I would we were like them they were wiser then we are It is maruell that they should be so farre wide and no man to reproue them There is no wise man but he will take it to be the more surer way to cleaue to so many godly and wise forefathers and good Saints then to take part with a few scismatikes and new fangled rash heads which will not sticke to condemne and ouerthrow all good orders be they neuer so ancient Oh this corrupt age whither will it tend at the last Pro. What we go about or would make the world beléeue God himselfe is both witnesse and Iudge to him and to his holy truth we appeale It is not like that God would forsake his Church so many hundred yeares no hee neuer forsooke it one houre no not euen when it seemed to be quite destroyed and wasted by Antichrist He neuer suffered all our forefathers to be seduced and to perish neither did he euer suffer any one of our godly forefathers to perish he forsooke Antichrist and his brood as a den of theeues which forsooke him he forsooke all those which receiued not the loue of the truth that they might be saued and sent them strong delusions to beleeue lyes that so they might be damned as S. Paule setteth it forth 2. Thes 2. This was neither all the forefathers nor yet so many hundred yeres as you seeme to note for the most part of your Antichristian religion hath not as yet seene sixe hundred Sommers And in those times there were euer some which cried out of your corrupt doctrine and wicked maners He is the right wise man which doth not leaue to nor depend vpon the multitude of men