Therfore I would now wish you to proceede to your proofes and to alleadg such arguments against our former Conclusion as your owne reading hath at any time best ministred vnto you Do not rest only in generally saying that the Church of Rome hath altered her Religion except withal you insist in the particular instances when that Church imbraced such such a Doctrine as an innouation and repugnant to the Faith planted by the Apostles And remember that the Truth or falshood of generalities in speech do receiue their best illustration from a curious and precise dissecting of the Particulars This office now is particularly incumbent vpon you for seeing you maintaine that the Church of Rome hath changed its Faith since the Apostles times you are obliged to insist in the particular Doctrines supposed to be changed in the Person and Popes by whom this change was made in the time in which these alterations are presumed to haue happened and the like as aboue I intimated in the beginning of this discourse Therfore M. Doctour begin and I will reply to your Obiections as far as my owne reading and iudgment will afford D. WHITAKERS My Lord I willingly take holde of your prescribed Method and will giue many instances of seuerall Doctrines euen of the greatest moment now in question betweene you and vs when they were first introduced into the Church and by what Popes they were so brought in and I hope that a due and mature ponderation of them will be able to shake and disioynt or rather to lay leuell to the ground the whole Systima and frame of your former large discourse Well then the first Instance of this vndoubted Change which I will alleadge shal be Pope Siritius who was the first that annexed Perpetuall Chastity to the ministers of the word And I hope that it is to be accoÌ„pted no smale change to barre our Clergy of their Christian liberty in so great a matter since we are taught by him who in these later times first taught vs Protestantcy that nothing is more sweeâ—e or louing vpon earth then is the loue of a Woman if a Man can obtaine it And that he who resolueth to be without a Woman let him lay aside from him the name of a man making himselfe a plaine Angell or Spirit CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to apply particuler answeres to your particuler instances following I must tell you that the force of all such your instaÌ„ces is already ouerthrowne by what is deliuered aboue For if it be already demonstrated that no chaÌ„ge of faith hath bin made at any time in the church of Rome partly by freeing euery age of the Church since Christs time from any change in Religion euen by the acknowledgment of the learned Protestants partly by manifesting that neither the Church of Christ neuer made any resistance against the first supposed change as both in duety it was bound to do and as the holy Scripture prophesieth that it should euer do at the innouatioÌ„ of any new Doctrine neither doth any Historiographer record in his History any such chaÌ„ge partly by discouering the vncertaine iudgments of your owne Brethren touching Antichrists first comming at what time this so much pressed Innouation of Faith is taught to haue happened and finally partly by diuers other reasons aboue discussed and disputed I say if all this hath bin aboue prooued as I hope it is then doth it follow that all pretended Instances and Examples vpon which you may hereafter seeme in an ignorant eye to insist are impertinent friuolous and wholy by you mistaken Neuertheles for the fuller content of this our Learned IeW I will with peculiar answeres refell euery one of your peculiar Examples And first to your first Where it seemes that the Doctrine of vowed Chastity in Cleargy Men toucheth you neare in regard of your Ministers coniugall liues seeing you begin there with And here by the way I must make bold to say that you Protestants God be thanked cannot iustly be charged with being reputed superstitious Votaries and wilfull Eunuchs as Catholick Priests are styled by some of your Brethren to be so carefull you are of your owne reputation herein but the lesse meruayle since the very Body of Protestancy is Sensuality pardon me M. Doctour for speaking that which Experience and your owne Theorems depose to be true as the soule of it is an assumed height of mind and controule of all Authority But now to your example wherof you produce no authority of any ancient Father affirming so much but only your owne naked assertion This of Siricius is wrongfully alleadged for seuerall respects first in that we finde S. Hierome who liued before Siricius to write of this point in this sort If marryed men like not of this meaning of the single life of the Cleargy let them not be angry with me but with the holy Scriptures with all Bishops Priests and Deacons who know they cannot offer vp Sacrifice if they vse the act of Marryage Thus we see S. Hierome reduceth this point of Priests not marrying euen to the Scripture it selfe Which Father in further proofe thereof appealeth to the generall Practise of the whole Church therein saying quid faciunt Orientis Ecclesiae quid Egypti Sedis Apostolicae quae aut Virgines Clericos accipiunt aut cominentes aut si vxores habuerint mariti esse desinunt With Hierome to omit other Fathers Epiphanius ancient to Hierome conspireth who reprehending the abuse of some Deacons and Sub-deacons for accompanying their Wiues whom they had espoused before their Orders taken concludeth thus At hoc non est iuxta Canonem This is against the Canion So he implying that there was a former Canon against the marriage of Priests To conclude Origen who liued before these oâ—her Fathers thus writeth hereof Mihi videtur quòd illius est solius offerre Sacrificium indesinens qui indesinenti perpetuae se deuouerit castitati I am of iudgment that that man only is to offer vp perpetuall Sacrifice who hath deuoted himselfe to perpetuall Chastity This point is so euident that your owne KeÌ„pnitius doth repreheÌ„d the foresayd Hierome Epiphanius Origen as also Ambrose for their impugning the supposed lawfulnes of Priests marriage We may adde for close hereof the CouÌ„cell of Carthage wherat S. Augustine was present the CouÌ„cell in expresse words sayth thus Omnibus placet vt Episcopi Presbyteri Diaconi c. ab vxoribus se abstineant It is allowed by all that Bishops Priests and Deacons do abstaine from hauing wiues And then immediatly after the CouÌ„cell giueth the reason therof in these words Vt quod Apostoli docuerunt ipsa seruauit antiquitas nos custodiamus to the end that we may keepe what the Apostles haue ordayned herein and antiquity obserued Now I referre to any Mans indifferent iudgment with what colour M. Doctour you can auerre that Siricius was the first who imposed single
shew their loue to the Truth by their hate to this Pillar and Foundation of Truth Besides this deportment disculps great Humility a Character euen of Christ himselfe dicite a me quia humilis sum corde so true it is that an humble man is like to a lowly vally sweetly seated Thus doing Micheas no doubt you will embrace our Catholicke Faith of which point I am in greater hope in that it is obserued that whereas many Protestants haue becom Iewes yet not any Iew a Protestant D. WHITAKER The Cardinall here hath giuen you to large a scope since most of these are but humane and morall inducements which stand subiect to errour and falshood and you are to call to minde that to run well out of the right way is noe better then to stand still Pálin dromêsan ' è dramêin cacôs Therfore let your groundworke be next vnder Christ only the Holy Scriptures These are the only Iudges of all Cōtrouersies These are of that worth as that they are profitable as the Apostle speaketh To Doctrine to reprooue to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfect instructed in all good workes of that Clearenes as that iustly they may be called lucerna pedibus meis Of that fulnes and amplitude as we are threatned vnder paine of hauing our names blotted out of the booke of life if we either add or detract from thence finally of that easines and facility as that for picking out the true sence we are to receiue it by the benefit of our owne spirit instructed by the Holy Ghost spiritus vbi vult spirat MICHEVS You both speake learnedly And first touching your directions my L. Card. I hold them most graue waighty Yet seing I haue spent all my time chiefly in studying the Law and the Prophets being heretofore a Rabnie in our Iewish Sinagogue and seing that multiplity of reading which your method exacts to wit of the Auntient Fathers the Generall Councels Ecclesiasticall Histories is to great a burden to be imposed now vpon the shoulders of my old age my selfe not likely to liue so many years as will be answerable to so infinit a labour Therefore I must bethinke my selfe of some other more short and abreuiated course for the perfect setling of my iudgment in the Christian Religion Touching your graue aduice M. Doctour of relying only vpon the Writen word Grant that the Scripture alone were of it selfe sufficient to define and determine all Controuersies in Religion yet I am so conscious of my owne weaknes herein as that considering the seuerall sences vsually giuen vpon one and the same text I should euer rest doubtfull once abandoning the sence giuen by the ioynt consent of all Ancient Doctours of what construction to make choyce and the rather seing the Scripture witnesseth of it selfe That no Prophesy of the Scriprure is made by priuat Intepretation And sure I am that if we Iewish Rabbins should take liberty to interprete the olde Testament according to euery particular conceipte of each of vs we longe since should haue begotten many dissentions in Faith amonge vs. I may add hereto that I am the more easily thus perswaded euen by both your speches at this present seing both of you do strengthen and fortifie your different iudgments touching the finall determining of Controuersies euen from the Scripture it selfe But what doth the Scripture speake different or rather contrary things Noe. The Scripture is like to the Authour of Scripture euer the same and vnchāgable Ego sum dominus et non mutor And indeede to speake plainly when you vrge those words spiritus vbi vult spirat whereby you intimate the guift of the Priuat spirit interpreting the Scripture I euer disliked this Principle euen before I beleeued in Christ as ready to create in differētly any one Religion as well as an other so that that man who for his Faith and Religion grounds himselfe vpon this Reuealing Spirit and consequētly is ready to stampe any Religion which himselfe best pleaseth is like in my iudgment to on that should be immediatly made rather of the first Matter then of the Elements well tempred togeather since he is in possibility Anything But to proceede seing the directions of neither of you in regard of some difficult circumstances accompaning them can at this present sorte vnto my case I must make election of some other method for the sētling of my fluctuating Conscience in matter of Faith And vnder both your fauours it shal be this wheras by seriously perusing the New Testament as you Christians call it I am become with infinite thanks to the Lord of Hostes a Christian though as yet but a Christian imperfect and scarsly initiated So out of the same deuine Records I am instructed that the Church of Rome in those primatiue times receaued the true Christian Faith incontaminate and free from all errour Now if those sacred writings be of sufficient force with me for my relinquishing of my anciēt Iewish faith then ought they as securely to warrant my Iudgment that the true Faith of Christ was planted in the Apostles time in Rome This last point is confirmed to me by your great Apostle Paule who in his Epistle to the Romans much celebrateth the Faith of Rome saying To all that be at Rome the beloued of God called to be Saints Grace to you And againe I thanke my God for you c. because your Faith is renowned throughout the whole world And yet more your obdience is published in euery place finally the Apostle is so full in aduancing the Faith of the Romans as that he particularly euen in words ascribs one and the same Faith to himselfe and them saying That which is common to vs both your Faith and mine From all which texts it is euicted that Rome in those first times enioyed a true and perfect Faith Now here it comes to be examined whether Rome since her first embracing of it hath changed her Faith or othirwise she retaines without any alteration the same doctrine which first the Apostles did plant in her This point most excellent Men deserus an exact discussing and may well seeme to be worthy your serious disputs My owne want in your Ecclesiasticall Histories from whence cheifly this question is to receiue it triall doth pleade for my ignorance herein and makes my humble request for the better estableshing of my yet vnsetled iudgment to you both to enter into a graue skirmish and feight of disputation herein Both of you are learned and therefore by vrging what can be said on either side able to accomplish this my desire both of you are charitable as I must suppose and therefore no doubt willing for my confirmation in the Christian Faith to vndertake this my wished taske for Charity as euer desirous to do good omnia sperat sustinet a charitable man partakes of the
at S. Gregory his sending of Augustine into England which was about a thousand yeares since our present Roman Religion was then wholy and publickely practised in Rome that if the Church of Rome had suffered any change of Faith from that first taught by the Apostles that this change should haue beene made not since but before Gregories time and before he had sent Augustine to plant in England the Fayth of Christ I may adde M. Doctour in further confirmation of D. Humfrey his iudgment herein the iudgment of your owne Centurists who in their Index or Alphabeticall table of the sixt Century at the Word Gregory set downe with particuler figures ofreferences where euery such mentioned opinion may be found as followeth Eiusdem Error de bonis operibus de CoÌ„fessione de coÌ„iugio de Ecclesia de sanctorum â—nuocatione do Inferno de Libero arbitrio de â—ustificatione de Purgatorio de Paeniâ—entia de satisfactione c. And which is more your sayd CeÌ„turists do further accuse Gregory out of his owne writings with consecration of Altars Chalices Corporals with oblatioÌ„ of sacrifice for the dead with translation of Reltques with Monachisme with Pilgrimages with consecration of Churches with Masse spriâ—kling of holy-water With consecration of the fort of Baptisme of Chrâ—â—sâ—â—e Oyle with celibratio of Masse finally With claime of soueraignty ouer all Churches All which places of the Centurists charging him are to be found in their sixt Century after the first edition thereof To these former acknowledgmeÌ„ts we may adioin the words of Luke Osiander your famous Protestant which are these Augustinus Romanos Ritus et consuetudines Anglicanis Ecclesus obstitit And then immediatly after he perticulerly setteth downe seuerall rites doctrines practized and beleeued at this present by the Church of Rome which as he confesleth Augustine did plant establish in England a poynt so euident that euen your owne selfe M. Doctour auertes that Boniface the third who liued anno 605. and presently after the foresaid Gregory and all his successours were Antichrists Yea you speaking of the conuersion of England made by this Gregory and of other conuersions of Countries by other Popes after thus conclude The Conuersions of so many countries were not pure but corrupt With you herein Dauaeus that remarkable Protestant conspirech who thus basely censureth of Gregories conuerting of England Purgatio illa quam Gregorius primus fecit c. fuit iâ—ebriatio mer etricis mundo facta de qua est Apocalips 17. et 18. Thus referring our Conuersion to Christianity to the worke of Antichrist And thus M Doctour you here may see how the Church of God through an ouer vnkind peruerting and misconsturing her most motherly and charitable endeauours hath reason even to complaine and grieue at those who vaunt themselues for her owne Children so the Vine being vntimely cut weeps out its mishap through out it owne wound Now from all these former testimonies of your selfe M. Doctour other Protestant writers we may infallibly conclude that from this day till we arriue at least to the age of the fore-said S. Gregory the present Roman Catholicke Religion was taught in diuers Countries consequently seeing those Countries receiued their instruction in Faith from Rome that it was not during all this time introduced into the Church of Rome as an Innouation and change of the Faith afore professed by the said Church Now it being made euident first that the Church of Rome did retaine her purity of Faith the first foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ and also that for this last thousand yeares the present RomaÌ„ Catholicke Faith hath not at any time thereof bin first brought into the world but during the said thousand yeares it hath bin continually the generall taught doctrine of the Church of Rome It now followeth that we take into our consideratioÌ„ the number of years which passed betweene the first foure hundred and forty from Christ and these last thousand yeares from vs. Which number seeing it is sixteene hundred yeares some more from Christ to vs amounteth to about one hundred and sixty yeares Well then if here we can prooue that no change of Fayth in the Church of Rome within the compasse of this 160. yeares then followeth it vnauoidably that the Church of Rome neuer to this day hath suffered any alteration in Fayth and Religion since its first embracing of the Christian Fayth That no Change of Faith did happen within the compasse of the sayd 160. yeares I prooue seuerall waies yet all conducing to erect this one maine truth like as diuers lesser numbers though counted after different waies make vp but one and the same great number And first this assertion of mine is prooued from the doctrine which was beleeued and generally taught at such tyme as Constantine who was our first Christian Emperour was conuerted to Christianity which was about the yeare 320. after Christ and therefore before the foresayd 160. yeares That the Faith in his time was the same that the Church of Rome professeth at this present appeareth from the frequent testimonies of your former Centurists who most elaborately punctually do record all the particuler Articles of the present Romane Fayth to be beleeued most constantly by the said Constantine and that he did cause to be put in practise all the Ceremonies now vsed in the Church of Rome And the said Centurists are so exact and diligent in their enumeration of all the Catholicke Doctrines beleeued by Constantine and of the Catholicke Rites and Ceremo ies obserued in his time as that they spend seuerall Columnes of the fourth Century touching this point to wit from Column 452. to Column 497. or thereabout Now that not only Constantine himselfe but also the whole fourth Age did generally beleeue and professe the now professed Doctrine of the Romane Church is in like sort abundantly confessed registred by the said Centurists they spending most of the leaues of the said Century in particularizing the now Catholicke Doctrines and the doctours of that age beleeuing teaching them and therefore for the greater manifestation of this point I remit you M. Doctour to the â—â—ligent perusall herein of their fourth Century touching which particuler subiect I am so confident that I dare auouche that by the industry of the said Centurists the true state of the Church in that age is so painfully articulatly according to my former speaches registred as the perfect memory thereof as being exempt from all obliuion in future dayes is able to turne the syth of time so certaine it is that euen in your owne Histories so long as they shal be extant the Catholicks shal be euer able to glasse the true face of their times But M. Doctour for the greater euidency of this point I pray you tell me whether it is your iudgment that the Fathers liuing in the fourth Age but especially those who
of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence
signify three yeares and a halfe which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion seeing he hath coÌ„tinued preaching the sayd Doctrine Religion euen by the Protestants confessions as now I see many hundred of yeares But good my Lord Cardinall if there be any other reasons behinde to impugne this sayd change I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety CARD BELLARM. I am willing therto And for the further prosecution therof I am to put you in mind M. Doctour partly according to my former Method set downe in the beginning that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ as is aboue on all sides confessed and consequently the most ancient Church since truth is euer more ancient then falsehoode and Errours It therfore followeth that all Hereticks whatsoeuer who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth do make a reuolt and seperation from that Church of the Apostles according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt a nobis they went out of vs and answerably to that other text certaine that went forth from vs which very words do contayne a Brande or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy Since the Apostle and the Euangelist do meane hereby that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians then by him is chosen So as to go out of a precedent Church or society of Christians is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis quis vnquam Haereses instituit nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae Câ—â—boli ae Vniuer sitatis antiqnitatis consensione discreâ—â—it but euen by your owne Brethren for we finde Osiander among others thus to write Nota Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall most ancient company of Christians as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer Now here I demaÌ„d of you M. Doctour to shew from what company or society of Christians more ancient did we Catholicks in those former tymes when first you say this chaÌ„ge of Faith was made depart or from what Church afore in being went we out The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin Luther the Waldenses the Wicliffians and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries of whom it is confessed that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines so Iudas the Apostle who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour did go and depart out of the present Roman Church and therby became Hereticks The like M. Doctour I do here expect that you should prooue by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories of the present Catholicke and Romane Church which if you cannot then is the inference most strong that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from or departing out of that Church which was established by the Apostles at Rome and consequently that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth since it first being a Church D. WHITAKERS Your Church hath departed from that Fayth which the Apostles first preached in Rome and I hope this departure and going out without other proofs is sufficient enough And here I answere with M. Newstubâ— one of our learned Brethren That when you require who were they that did note your going out c. This question I say is vnvecessary c. we haue taken you with the manner that is to say with the Doctrine diuerse from the Aposties and therfore neither Law nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing Thus my Brother M. Newstubs And my Lord as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine first preached at Rome by the Apostles and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture before all humane reasons and arguments directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation CARD BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this and how poore a Circulation do you make The mayne question betweene vs is whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth or no since the Apostles dayes To prooue that it hath not Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancieÌ„t Church and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth Now you in answere hereto as not being able to instance the persons by whom or the tymes when any such departing or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion reply that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes and this sophism you know is but Petitio Principij or a beginning of the matter in question and is nothing els but without answering to any of my premisses the denyall of my Conclusion which kynd of answenng I am sure impugneth all Logicke and therfore all Reason since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined But to proceed further In euery introduction of a new Religion or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne the Professours therof receaue a new denomination or name for the most part from the first authour of the new doctryne and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe like vnto a running riuer which commonly taketh the name of that riuer into which it falleth Thus the Arians the Valentinians Marcionists Manicheans from Arius Valentinus Marcian and Manicheus c. or from the doctrine it selfe as the Hereticks Monothelites Agnoitae Theopaschitae c. though this more seldome This Note or Marke of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception ingendred since the Apostles tymes euen to this day a poynt so exempt from all doubt as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth Surely it is not to be denyed but that the naming after the names of Men was in the time of the Primatiue Church peculiar and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks with whom agreeth M. Parks both of them borrowing it from the ancieÌ„t Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome who thus saith Prout Haeresiarchae nomen it a Secta vocatur Well then this being thus acknowledged on all sides If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies and Opinions became Heretickes and consequently they haue taken according to our former grounde some name either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines or from the doctrines themselues But you cannot M. Doctour shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs
RomanaÌ„ speculationem suam toti orbi indicere Gregory sayth that the Roman Sea appoynteth her watches ouer the whole world Now by all this here deliuered M. Doctour you may see whether or no Gregory did practise the Authority of an Vniuersall Bishop as the word is taken in a sober and in the Latter aboue mentioned construction And thus much of the Example of Iohn of Constantinople and of Gregory the Greate which is so often enforced and vrged though with extreame wilfull or at least ignorant mistaking by many of your Protestant doctours MICHEAS Our Law of Moyses euer enioyed one Supreame Priest and therfore seeing the tyme of the new Testament is much superiour to the tyme of the Law I do not see but now in theiyme of Grace there should be one Supreame Bishop ouer the whole Church of Christ and consequently the acknowledgmeÌ„t of such an Vniuersall Bishop should not be reputed any Innouation in Religion or change made from the first Institution of such a Pastour by Christ hymselfe CARD BELLARM. Michaeas you speake according to the Truth and no more then certaine Puritan protestants do teach who wryte thus thereof The high Priest of the Iewes was typically and in a figure the supreme heade of the whole Catholyke Church with whom as other Protestant thus iumpeth saying That forme of gouerment which maketh our Sauiour Christ inferioâ—r to Moâ—ses is an impious vngodly and vnlawfull gouerment contrary to the Word c. But M. D. proceede on further D. VVHITAKERS Our best Controuersists which as I may terme them aâ— the Infantaria of our Protestant Churches Souldiers do teach that touching your Sacrament of Confession Innocentius the Third was the first that instituted auricular Confession for necessary Now this Innocentius liued not past some foure hundred yeares since so late and fresh yow fee your Doctryne of Auricular Confession is And admitting this yonr Article touching Confession were not so new but for more ancient yet this Circumstance here auayleth litle since we are to call to minde that Haereses nonâ—am Nouitas quam veritas reuincit CARD BELLARM. I graunt willingly that many of your Controuersists among whom I also raÌ„ge yourfelfe are accounted meÌ„ of learning And therefore I rest the more amazed to see yow here perhaps with resolued willfullnes against the Truth obiect this example to vs for Nouelty But I feare your and their learninge is cheifly in obtruding errours and misstakings for warrantable Truths and such a knowledge is not to be preferred before simple Ignorance But to cleare this Innocentius from all innouation herein and not to oppresse yow with multitude of Authorities We finde S. Bernard who liued before Innocentius the third thus to wryte of this point Sed dicis sufficit mihi soli Deo confiteri c. But thou saiest it is sufficient for me to confesse my sinnes only vn to God because a Preist without him cannot absolue me from my sinnes To Which thy argument not I but S. Iames answereth Confesse your sinnes one to an other But to ascend higher S. Leo. who liued anno 440. describing the vse of the Latin Church in this poynt thus saith Christus hanc Ecclesiae Prepositis tradidit potestatem c. Christ did deliuer this power to the Prelates of his Church that they should impose penance vpon them that confessed their sinnes that so they being purged through a healthfull satisfaction might be admitted by Way of reconciliation to the communion of the Sacraments In lyke sort S. Basil S. Leo his ancient discoursing of the vse of the Greeke Church herein and teaching that a Ghostly Father in tymeof CoÌ„fession is an other from himselfe thus writeth Necessariò peccata eis aperiri debeÌ„t c. Our sinns are necessarily see heere the Necessity of Confession to be opened to those to whoÌ„ the dispensation of the Mysteries of Christ are giueÌ„ for indeede we find that all the AncieÌ„ts did follow this course in Penance To be breife Cypryan and Tertullian of so greate antiquity is Auricular Confession are charged by your owne Centurists to teach priuate Confession and this euen of thoughts and lesser sinnes and that such Confession was then commanded and thought necessary Thus far of this point Where by the way I must tell you that since protestaÌ„cy had it first source froÌ„ sence and sensuality the lesse wounder it is that Confession of sinnes made to a preist being so vngratfull to mans nature should be so vnpleasing to all protestants and so basely esteemed of for we all know that the water will ascend no higher then is the leuell of its first spring MICHNS I must acknowledg that our AncieÌ„t Iewes did vse particular Confession of sinns to a Preist Galatinus who hath collecteda summary of our Iewish Religion sheweth in diuers parts of his Writings our continual practise therof Adde hereto that the prefiguration of Auricular Confession is not wanting in Leuiticus for seeing there were then appovnted different Sacrifices to be offered vp by the Priest for different sinns and offences how could the Priest know what kind of Sacrifice he were to offer except he knew the particular sinne for which it is to be offered Now then in regard of our Iewish practise hereof seing there is no reasoÌ„ why now in the New Testament it should be wholy abrogated I cannot be induced to think that the vse therof is to be accompted as an innouation and change different from the doctrine first planted in Rome by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Your doctrine of Transubstantiatinn was first inuented by Innocentius the third in the Councell of Lateran for before that tyme not any one of the ancient Fathers did hold it for where euer in any of their writings was made any mention of Transubstantiation CARD BELLARM. Good God how poore and needy in proofe are you M. Doctour For indeed you greatly wrong your selfe and this presence in suggesting such vnwarrantable Assertions True it it is that if you insist in the word Transubstantiation wee grant that it was first inuented and imposed vpon the Doctrine of the Reall Presence in the councell of Lateran But then this is but a verball litigation of you for though the Word was then first formed to expresse the Doctrine of the Church therein yet the doctrine it selfe was generally beleeued in all ages before And still you allow M. Doctour by reseÌ„blance this illation as good and necessary The VVord ' omousios or Consubstantialis was first inuented in the Councell of Nice to expresse the Doctrine of the Church touching the Trinity Ergo the Doctrine of the Trinity was not beleeued before the Councell of Nice Idly and inconsequently concluded Therfore M. Doctour let your iudgment herein draw equally with your learning But to come particulerly to the doctrine it selfe and to omit that S. Augustine sayth vocatur caro quod non capit caro And in another place
and Piety your former assertion in ascribing the Protest an t faith to all that Country cannot be iustifyed For though I grant it is on most sides obsest as I may say with Protestancy yet it is certaine that diuers principall parts thereof are not Protestant but Catholicke in Religion As halfe of Switzerland a part of the Grisons Voltolyne the whole Country of Bauaria the Territories of all the Bishops Electours the kingdome of Bohemia besides many Imperiall Citties and states Againe as other parts thereof do ioyntly and particulerly disclaime from the Roman Religion so though they all do challenge to themselues the name of Protestants yet do they manteine many irreconcileable differences of Religion enen of the greatest importance like seuerall wayes and Tracts meeting in one common place and then instantly deuided one from another This appeareth as I am enformed most cleare and euident from the authority of Hospinian a learned German Protestant who hath diligently set downe the names of many scores of Bookes written in great acerbity of style by one Gerâ—aÌ„ Protestant against another German Protestant according nereto it is that we finde so many kindes of Sectaries and Hereticks in Germany as the Caluinists the Lutherans the Anabaptists the Antitrinitarians and some others though they all be linked and tyed together in the common and maine knot of Protestancy And thus farre M. Doctour of this point where you see I haue smale reason to embrace the Protestant Religion before the Catholicke because that is professed throughout Germany as you pretend this cheifly restrained to Italy Spayne and France But let vs returne backe to the generall subject of this your disoutation with my Lord Cardinall I would intreat you M. Doctour to alleadge some stronger arguments for the change off yeh in the Church of Rome then hitherto you haue giuen which if you do not then what by reason of the weakenes of your said arguments at least in my apprehension and what in respect that I do not see the proofes Produced by my Lord Cardinal to be sufficiently by you refuted I must tell you aforehand I will embrace the Catholicke Roman Religion disauow all Protestancy CARD BLLARM M. Doctour if you can support this your position of Romes change with other more forcing reasons I would intreate you now to insist further in them You see I am prepared to giue my best answere to what you can object If you do not I must presume all your forces are already spent they indeed being but weake reseÌ„bling that of S. Iude Cloudes without water carryed about with windes MICHEAS I pray you M. Doctour forbeare not to grant to this my desire since otherwise I must rest assured that no more can be sayd on your part touching this subject CARD BELLARM. Yeild M. Doctour to this Learned Iewes importunity you know he hath vndertaken a journey of many hundred miles to this Citty onely to be resolued in this one Point therefore both in charity and for the preseruing of your owne honour and reputation you stand obliged to giue all satisfaction vnto him D. WHITAKERS Tush you are both ouer vpbrayding with me and seeing I intend no further dispute with men of so irreâ—ragable dispositions I first for a close say to you Micheas that where you intend to become a Papist your change is this that you leaue that which was ouce good though now bad to embrace that which is euer bad I meane you leaue Iudaisme to entertaine Papisme and thus you become a new Proselyte or rather Neophyte in the schoole of Superstition Idolatry Now as for you Cardinall whose name is so celebrious and so much aduanced in the eares and mouthes a fall men know you that touching the subiect of this our discourse I doubt not but that my arguments reasons and Instances aboue alleadged do in the iudgment of such as the Lord hath illuminated with the truth of the Ghosple sufficiently prooue the great changes made of Fayth and Religion in the Church of Rome since it first receaued it Faith in the Apostles daies And if the truth hereof be hid from any I may then say with the Apostle It is hid from them that perish and are lost Therefore my irreuocable conclusion is this that the Church of Rome was once the true Church and in fayth pure and incontaminate as before I acknowledged but at this present it is The Whore of Babilon a branch cut from the true Vine adenne of theeues the large way leading to destruction the kingdome of Hell the Body of Antichrist a heape or masse of errours a great Mother of whoring the Church of the wicked out of the which it behoucth euery christian to depart and which Christ in the end will miserably destroy inflict due punishments for all it impieties and with this as vnwilling to haue further entercourse or dispute with any that subiect themselues to this prophane Church I end and bid you both farewell CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour I much greiue to see you thus transported with passion and to inueigh with such acerbity of words against Christs intemerate spouse but I the more easily pardon you since it is hard vpon the sodame to cast of a habit which hath beene often engrained in diuers tinctures of many operations so spleenfull a â—â—slike you haue against the Church of Rome and indeede it seemes you labour with the disease of those whose spitle being enuenomed make them to thinke that euery thing they take in their mouths doth taste of venome But since it is your minde to breake off so sodainely with vs I recommend you to the tuition of him who in an instant is able to turne the most stony hart into Cor docile and Cor emolitum and my prayers shal be that before the time of your death you may haue the grace to implant your selfe as a branch of that Church the profession of whose faith may be auaileable to the sauing of your soule MICHEAS I am beholden vnto you M. Doctour for your Paines and labour taken in this disputation howbeit I must confesse I did expect to haue heard more said for the proofe of the Church of Rome her change in Religion then as yet is deliuered where I see that your faire promised mountaines in the beginning do but turne to snow and after resolue into water and that by your finall appealing to the written word alone you endeauour to set the best face vpon your ouerthrow in this your dispute bearing your selfe herein like to souldiers who are forced to yeild vp their hould and yet couet to depart with such ceremonies as are not competent to such as yeild Neuerthelesse I commend you to the protection of the God of Israell and will pray that you may after this life enioy the blessings which are already granted to Abraham Isaâ—ck Iacob and their Seede D. VVHITAKERS Well well Once more I bid you both farewell MICHEAS My
rope too the Protestant promiseth reputation honour and riches Then the Vnderstanding and the Will do easily partake together to the betraying of the Soule by entertaining an erroneous Religion priuiledged with authority seconded with the streame of the tymes and aduantaged through meanes of preferring and here then that Sentence houldeth it force As gold is tryed by the stone so man by gold But let me stay my selfe I feare I haue spoken ouerlowde and the Schollers ouerhearing me out of their Colledge windows being so neare to vs may much blame this my Censure The second thing I note but pardon me most florishing Academies I protest I speake with the Apostle in charitate non ficta and not in any vpbrayding sense is that feminine Seruitours as employed for seruyle vses haue an ouer-free accesse into the Colledges a sight most strange in Catholicke vniuersityes and as Iam enformed much disliked by your owne Protestants O where vigour of youth Mansinnate propension the present inuiting obiect and the priuatnes of the place do all conspire together what dangerous effects of this Nature may they produce And we all see how apt the fyer is to take hould of any neare combustible mater But I had almost forgotten my selfe therefore leauing these poynts as meerly Perereà or impertinēcyes let vsdescend to some more serious discourse Touching my present fayth whereat you glance I grant I was a Iew both by byrth and Religion till by the infinite mercy of the Highest and the charitable endeuour of that most Illustrious and learned Cardinall in his disputes with D. Whitakers euen through waight of argument I was forced to embrace the Catholicke Fayth My Iudgement being till then but as Plato his Basatabula propending indifferently to Catholicke and Protestant and ready to receiue the wryting Impression of that Religion whichsoeuer it should be that came presented to myne eyes in the fayre attyre of venerable Antiquity OCHINVS I do much grieue Michaeas to see your candour and integrity thus distayned with the aspersion of superstition and glad I should be to lend a hand for the pulling you out of the myre of your present errours NEVSERVS Doubtlesly Michaeas your choyce of Religion hath proceeded from an indigested and raw censure which you haue made of the passages of the former disputation by you mentioned And therefore if you had gone with greater leasure therein your successe had bene the more fortunate But yet your sicknes is not vnto death fot there is tyme for your cure And since Grace and Temptation are the seedes of the Holy Ghost and the Diuell embrace that offered vnto you by God by shewing you the light of his Gospell and ouercome this being the bayte of Antichrist and my seruiseable labour shall no way be wanting to further so happy a change And the more I commiserate your present estate you erring out of Ignorance not out of malice for we see Saluation of your soule is the Circumference within which all your thoughts are bounded MICHAEAS Gentlemen I thanke you all and do interpret your words in the same language in which you did deliuer them I meane in the Dialect of your Charity And I see how ready your zeale is to take fyer vpon the least occasion of discourse Therefore assure your selues I am not ashamed of my fayth I am a Roman Catholicke at least and through the grace of God that working and efficatious Grace I meane which is the stone set in the Ring of Nature I am resolued so to liue and dye My resolution is so inalterable herein as that I trust through him who for his owne glory and in his owne Cause is euer ready to fortify the weake that your strongest assaults in dispute for I see thither your speeches tend shall not be able to beate me off the Station of my present Profession And I am the more confident in that with God causes are heard to speake not Persons And further you may rest certifyed that since the worthy Cardinals dispute with D. Whitakers I haue spent my whole tyme in the study of the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks and the Protestants and haue found diuers other most forcible inducements for my continuance in that fayth of which already I haue made election so certayne it is that the great Motion of Religion as it is newly entertayned by the iudgment turneth vpon many wheeles one still mouing and seconding another D. REYNOLDS May we entreate of you to show what Reasons are most preuayling for your not incorporating your selfe within our Protestant Church MICHEAS M. Doctour I will Besides the Argument handled betweene the Cardinall and D. Whitakers touching the supposed change of the fayth of Rome which to me still remaynes an vnauoydable Demonstration many other Reasons are and among the rest this oue I find by my perusall of Ecclesiasticall Historyes that the Protestant Church had it first being as I may say it Creation in the dayes of Luther or rather after then and not before coming out of an Abysse of Nothing Now what warrant can I haue after my leauing of the Iewish fayth which is confessed to be the true fayth for seuerall thousand yeares to implant my selfe in that Society of Christians whose Church my owne age being almost 70. is not thirty yeares elder then I am The truth of which point is euicted in that you are not able to instance the being of Protestants in any former Age. Now it is an inexpugnable verity that the Church of Christ is euer and in all ages to be most visible in her members Whereas on the contrary part some Protestants well discerning the want in their Church of this so necessary a Visibility haue bene forced to forge in their mindes a certayne imaginary and Inuisible Church and teaching that it is not necessary that the Church of Christ should be at all tymes Visible but that it may and often hath bene not only inconspicuous and inglorious but wholy latent and vnknowne But I feare I haue made an vnpleasing and ouer deepe incision in so dangerous a wound of your Church D. REYNOLDS See how the ambushment of your owne Passions I meane of preiudice and dislike betray your Iudgment And see how foulely euen in the beginning you are deceaued and how one errour in your words inuolues in it selfe a second errour For first we are ready and prepared at all tymes to prooue by particuler and most warrantable Instances that there haue bene men in euery age since the Apostles professing our Protestant Religion So farre off we are from acknowledging that the riuers of our fayth first issued out of Luthers fountayne Secondly it is your mistaking to thinke that the learned Protestants for what any Anonymous and illiterate scribler may blot his paper with by defending the contrary doctrine we regard not as acknowledging such a defect of Protestants do teach an inuisibility of the Church of Christ especially after the tymes of the comming
into the wildernesse c. All which places are strangely deâ—orted by some few iniudicious men to the defence of the Churches Inuisibility And to the first against these Inuisibilists I say touching those former words of Elias first admitting the Iewish Synagogue to haue bene then inuisible yet is this exaÌ„ple defectiuely alleadged as applyed to the Church of Christ since the predictions and promises made to Christ his Church whose Testament is established in better promises are farre greater and more worthy then those of the Iewish Synagogue Agayne the foresaid example doth not extend to the whole Church of God before Christ but only to the Iewish Synagogue being only but a part or member thereof For besides the Iewes there were diuers others faythfull as Melchisadech Cornelius the Eunuch to the Queene of Caudace c. Secondly I say this example maketh wholy agaynst the alleadgers of it since the words of Elias were spoken not generally of all the Iewish People but only in regard of the Countrey of Israel and accordingly God answered the complaint of Elias with restraint to that only Countrey the texts saying I haue left to me in Israel seauen thousands which haue not bowed vnto Baâ—l Adde hereto that in those very tymes the Church did greatly florish in the adioyning Countrey of Iuda and was to Elias then knowne and Visible vnder the raigne of Asa and Iosaphat And thus is this obiection answered euen by Melancthon and Enoch Clapham Lastly admitting these seauen thousands were vnknowne to Elias yet followeth it not that they were vnknowne to all others of the same tyme Much lesse then is this Example of force to prooue that the Church of God may be Latent and Inuisible for many hundred yeares together as some of our ignorant brethren do teach not to one Elias only but to the whole World And thus farre of this so much vrged example of Elias To the second Those words of the Prophet The Oast sacrifice shall cease c. Are to be referred to the ouerthrow of Ierusalem and the ceasing of the Iewish sacrifices euen by the exposition of Chrysostome Ierome Austin others Neyther can the words be properly extended to the tymes of Antichrist since we teach that Antichrist is already comne and yet we see that sacrifices do still remayne To the third By the word departure mentioned by the Apostle is vnderstood eyther Antichrist himselfe by the figure Metonymia because he shal be the cause why many shall depart from Christ as Chrysostome and Theodoret vpon this place do expound as also Austin Or rather is vnderstood a departure and defection from the Roman Empyre as Ambrose Sedulius Primasius and diuers Protestants do expound this Text. To the fourth I answere that by the Woman flying into Wildernes S. Iohn meaneth not any locall or corporall flight out of the knowledge and notice of the world but only a spirituall retiring in hart from the allurements and pleasures of the World to pennance mortification and contemplation of celestiall matters And in this very sense Bullenger interpreteth the Churches flight from Babilon To the former texts I may adde though not aboue mentioned that passage in S Iohn Venit hora nunc est c. The hower cometh and now is when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and truth To this I answere that our Lord here teacheth that the chiefe worship of God which shal be exhibited in his Church consisteth in an internall worship of him but from hence therefore it followeth not that the Church is Inuisible or that all externall worship is prohibited for our Lord here speaketh not of the place where God shal be worshiped but of the manner and rite of worshiping Chrysostome Cyrill and Euthimius vpon this place do oppose those words in spirit to the ceremonies of the Iewes as they are corporall and those other words in truth to the sayd Ceremonies as they are figures of things to come Now because diuers of the former passages of Scripture are obiected to proue that the Church of Christ shal be Inuisible at the least in the time of Antichrist I do reply further hereto saying first That the former place of the Apostle to the Ephesians alledged by Ochinus touching an incessant vndiscontinued being of Pastours Doctours in the Church to remaine euen to the end of the world omitting other texts aboue cited by him as also the Protestants confessions of the Churches euer Visibility hereafter to be deliuered by Michaeas do fully answere and satisfy the supposed doubts suggested in the former texts touching the Churches Inuisibility in the time of Antichrist Secondly I reply that diuers learned brethren of ours punctually and purposely with reference to that time do teach that the Church shall remayne then Visible And to giue some tast hereof D. Pulke thus writeth In the time of Antichrist the Church was not driuen into any corner of the world but was is shal be dispersed in many Nations And againe he thus writeth The true Church though obscured and driuen into wildernes by Antichrist yet shall continue dispersed ouer the world Bullenger sayth the Church in the time of Antichrist shal be right famous But if it shal be then right famous it must of necessity be then Visible To be short Szegedine a learned Protestant thus writeth The ministers of Gods word shall preach all the time in which Antichrist shall tread vnderfoote the holy Citty Thus farre in solution of all such chiefe passages of Scripture vsually obiected against the perpetuall Visibility of the Church But now M. Doctour I thinke it is your turne to warraÌ„t the former truth from the wrytings of the auncient fathers and from arguments of Credibility which the force of reason it selfe doth minister DOCTOVR REYNOLDS I am prepared thereto And I will not presse your memoryes with a needles ouercharge of their sentences Some few and those pertinent shall serue though otherwise they are most luxuriant and plentifull herein And first thus Origin writeth Ecclesia est plaena fulgore ab oriente vsque ad Occidentem the Church is full of fulgour or brightnes from the East euen to the West Cyprian discourseth thus Ecclesia Dom. c. The Church of our Lord being replenished with light casteth forth it beames throughout the whole earth Chrysostome saith facilius est solem extingui quam Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easy for the Sunne to be extinguished then the Church to be obscured or darkened Finally for greater conpendiousnesse S. Austin is so full in this point as that he maketh the Visibility of the Church a Marke for the ignorant to discerne the true Church of Christ from all false Conuenticles thus writing Propter hoc enim motus c. By reason of the teÌ„ptations of those who are weake and may be seduced by some from acknowledging the Churches
brightnesse our Lord euen foreseeing so much saith A Citye that is built vpon a hill cannot be hidd And further S. Augustin thus enlargeth himselfe Ecclesia vera nemiem latet the true Church is hidd or concealed from no man And yet more numquid digito c. Do we not point our fingar to the Church it doth she not lye open to all And lastly he exaggerateth this point further in these words Quid amplius diccturus sum c. What may I more say then account them blynd who cannot see so greate a mountaine who do shult their eyes against a candel placed in a candelstich Thus S. Austin And thus farre of the Fathers from whence we may easely coniecture how muche different ware the iudgements of the auncient and primatiue Fathers from their conceipts who labour by their speeches to turne the faire streame of the Churches Resplendency into the shallow current of her supposed Obscurity 1. In this next place I will descend to arguments drawne from analogy of reason And first from the comparison made betwene the old Testament and the New Testament Certaine it is that the Iewes euer since Ghrists dayes retained and kept a knowne profession of their Religion though vnder some restraint and their Synagogues haue euer since bene extarnally visible though disperced as in Greece Spayne Italy Germany France England c. And this point Peter Martyr and others do acknowledg and your selfe Michaeas can well iustify the same Now then if the Church of the new Testament should want a continuall Visibility then should it be inferiour in honour and dignity to the Iewish Synagogue euen then when the Gospell is prophesied to be most florishing and the Synagogue to be in it greatest decay and ruyne a reasonable to ouerbalance all reasons brought to the contrary 2. The foresaid Conclusion of the Churches Visibility is also proued from the beginning and progresse of the Church For first durnig the old Testament the Church was then so Visible as that the Professours thereof did beare euen in their flesh the Visible and markable signe of Circumcision as a badg of the Church Againe in the new Testament the whole Church of Christ was in it infancy and beginning in Christs Apostles and Disciples Who were so Visible as that the Holy Ghost did Visibly descend vpon them vpon the feast of Penticost Furthermore We reade in the Acts. c 2. 3. 4. that on one day three thousands on an other fyue thousands were adioyned to the former by their confession of fayth and Baptisme And so after they and only they were reputed as membrs of Christs Church who did adioyne themselue to the former Christians by their externall confession of fayth and by Baptisme 3. An other argument may be taken from the greate necessity imposed vpon Christians who are obliged vnder paine of eternall damnation to range themselues vnto the true Church of Christ and to perseuer in the same as appareth not only from the testimonies of Cyprian Ierome and Austin but euen from reason it selfe Since no man can raigne with Christ who is not a member of Christ But how can this be performed if the Church of Christ be Inuisible Or how can God be excused from cruelty by threatning to vs eternal perdition for our not performing such conditions the which supposing the Church not to be Visible is not in our power to accomplish 4. Furthermore the Inuisibility of the Church impugneth the marks of the Church giuen by vs Protestants which are the true preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments seeing there matters cannot be put in practice but among a Visible Society of men and such a Society as that one of it is knowne to an other 5. Againe the Inuisibillity of the Church mainly crosseth the ende for which the Church of God was instituted Which end was to prosecute God with that entier and perfect worship which man can giue to him that is worship him not only with his Soule but also externally with his body and works or deeds seeing Man consisteth of soule and body But an Inuisible Church performeth it worship to God only in hart and minde And with this I end referring the last point to you Michaeas who is next to enter as I may say vpon the stage MICHAEAS Most willingly I come For if we peruse the writings and especially of such who haue bene of the chiëfest note in the Protestant Church it is a world to see how riotous as it were and abounding they haue bene in their works for proofe of the Churches Visibility at all times and in respect of all men and this euen in the Conclusion it selfe without any borowed sequels though neuer so necessary And first we find Caluin the halfe Arche of the Protestant Church thus to say Nunc de Visibili Ecclesia c. Now we determine to dispute of the Visible Church c. extracuius gremium nulla est speranda peccatorum remissio out of whose bosome we cannot expect any remission of sinns Neither is Melancton lesse full herein who thus acknowledgeth Necesse est fateri esse Visibilem Ecclesiam c. it is necessary to confesse the Church to be Visible Whither tendeth then haec portentosa oratio this monstrous opinion which denyeth the Church to be Visible Melancthon Further thus saith Whensoeuer we thinke of the Church let vs behould the company of such men as are gathered together which is the Visible Church Neither let vs dreame that the Elect of God are to be found in any other place then in this Visible Society c. neither let vs imagine of any other Inuisible Church Briefly the said Melancthon vrging diuers texts of Scripture in proofe of the Churches Visibility thus coÌ„cludeth Hi similes loci c. These and such lyke places of Scripture non de Ideä Platonica sed de Ecclesia visibili loquuntur do not speake of Plato his Ideä but of the Visible Church this Melancthon The Learned Hunnius giueth his sentence in these words God in all times hath placed his Church in a high place and hath exalted it in the sight of all Prople and Nations Iacobus Andreas that famous Protestant thus â—umpeth with his brethreÌ„ herein We are not ignorant that the Church must be a Visible company of teachers and hearers The eminet Danâ—usâ—oth â—oth thus second the rest Who denyeth the true Church of God and that Visible to haue bene from the beginning of the world he without doubt sheweth himselfe to be ignorant in holy Schripture M. Hooker your Countriman thus writeth of this point God hath had euer shall haue some Church Visible vpon earth Peter Martyr once your Companion Ochinus confesseth the trueth herein in these words We do not appoint an Innisible Church but do define the Church to be a Congregation vnto which the faithfull may know that
Ghost to illuminate the world with the Trueth of the Ghospell and to discipate the clowds of the former Romish Errours And I am assured Michaeas you wil acknowledg Luther for a perfect Protestant in all points and consequently that the Protestant Church was in Luther his followers most conspicuous and Visible MICHAEAS I know most of our new Ghospellers trauayle with you M. D. on this child to wit that Luther did erect a perfect forme of Protestancy By the which we may learne that Affection is not only blind but also deafe so loath you Protestants are either to see or heare any thing against Luther herein Neuerthelesse I here auerre it is impossible to iustify Luther for a true Protestant I know also that himselfe thus vaunteth Christum a nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari where we may see it is an accustomed blemish of most Innouatours to become their owne Parasites NEVSERVS Strange Luther not a Protestant doth the Sunne shine Is the fier hot Doth the Sea ebb and flow As certaine as any of these so certaine Luther was a perfect and true Protestant He was the Sunne that did dispel in those dayes the mists of Antichristian darkenesse From his preaching and writings a â—ier of Christian zeale was inkindled in thousands of mens soules for the embrasing of the Ghospell of Christ And neuer did the torrent and inundation of superstition and Idolatry suffer a greater reflux a greater reflux and Ebb then in his life time MICHAEAS Rhetorically amplifyed Neuserus But it is the weight of Reason not a froath of empty words which sway the iudicious I grant that Luther did derogatize more articles of Innouation and Nouelisme now taught by Protestants then any one Man afore him did since the first plantation of Christianity yet that Luther was a perfect and articulate Protestant and such as the present Protestant Church with relation to the doctrine now taught by that Church may iustly truely acknowledg for a member thereof I eternally denye and do iustify my deniall out of his owne bookes so shall Luther prooue that Luther was no Protestant Now this I euict according to my former premonitions and cautions first because Luther did euer hould euen after his reuolt from the Church of Rome diuers Catholicke opinions or doctrines then and still now taught by the said Church Secondly in that Luther after his departure from the Church of Rome did mantayne diuers grosse errours or rather Heresies or rather blasphemies and for such at this day condemned both by Catholicks and Protestants So euident it will appeare that Luther was too weake a bulke to giue nurrishment to all those different plants which now do stile themselues Protestants And first touching seuerall Catholicke points euer beleiued defended by Luther euen to his last day these following may serue as Instances 1. First he euer maintayned the Reall Presence in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist as the world knoweth And his followers for their peculiar defence of this doctrine are styled Lutherans by Swinglins Caluin their party impugning the foresaid doctrine 2. Luther also defended Prayer to Saints of which point he thus wryteth De intercessione diuorum cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio iudico sanctos a nobis honorandos esse atque inuocandos 3. He also taught the doctrine of Euangelicall Counsells to wit that a man might do more then he is commanded as appeareth out of his Booke de assertionibus 4. The Doctrine of Purgatory he taught of which see tom 〈◊〉 Wittenberg in resolut de Indulgentijs And answerably to this ground he is confessed by Vrbanus Regius a Protestant to defend prayer for the Dead 5. Luther further taught and approued the vse of Images as Beza witnesseth 6. The indifferency of communion vnder one or both kindes contrary to the doctrine of the Protestants who place a necessity in both is allowed by Luther in these words quamuis pulcrum sit c. Although it were very seemely to vse both the species or formes in the blessed Eucharist though Christ commanded nothing herein as necessary yet it were better to follow peace c. then to contende about the formes 7. Touching the making of the signe of the Crosse vpon our foreheads Iohannes Creuelius a Lutheran thus witnesseth Cum imus cubitum â—iue surgimus electo cruce nos iuxta Lutheri aliorum piorumâ—â— institutionem signamus When we go to bedd or rise from thence we do signe our selues with the signe of the Crosse according to the aduice of Luther and other pious men And Iohannes Maulius Luthers scholler thus writeth of Luther respondet Lutherus signo crucis facto Deus me tuetitur Luther answereth at the making of the signe of the Crosse God defend me 8. Finally to omit diuers other points wherein Luther neuer dissented from the Church of Rome Luther euer mantained that the gouerment of the Church is Monarchical neither Aristocratical nor Popular of which point Luther thus writeth Cum Deus voluerit c. Seing God would haue one Catholicke Church throughout the whole World it was needful that one people imo vnum aliquem patrem istius vnius populi elegi yea some one father of this one people should be choosen ad quem suos posteros spectant totus orbis to whose care and his successours the whole World should belong And thus farre Gentlemen touching some tast to shew that Luther euen after his forsaking of the Catholicke and Roman Church did neuerthelesse still retaine and belieue diuers Catholicke doctrines and consequently was no no entire and perfect Protestant D. REYNOLDS I confesse indeede that Luther as appeareth by his owne writings did not reueale to the new World as I may tearme it all the Euangelical Trueth the fuller discouery of some parts thereof being reserued for our later dayes And though his owne Religion was not through want of beliefe of some Trueths perfectly good yet I am assured It is not by his pesitiuely mantayning of any one errour then in what he was nuzled by the Church of Rome in any sort euill MICHAEAS This your reply is impertinent for here the Question is only whether Luther in respest of his faith was such an absolute Protestant as at this day our Gospellers repute for a good sound Protestant Yet that you may see your owne errour otherwise in ouer highly preiudging of Luthers Religion I wil here particularize out of his owne writings and other Protestants relations certaine Heresies and blasphemies neuer by him after recaled and incompatible with saluation for modicum firmentum totam massam corrumpit which he did egurgitate out of his impure stomak From whence we may inferre that with lesse reason he may be vrged for a Protestant 1. And First I wil here alleadg his impious doctrine wherin he labored to cut and wound Christian Religion euen in it maister-veine touching the
who in externall profession of fayth did in any sort dissent from them And you know how aduerse Aduersity is to Mans inclination And therfore the lesse wounder if the rayes of protestancy were in former tymes ouerclowded with the mysts of persecution MICHAEAS Indeed I haue read that Antonius sadellius a protestant of no vulgar note giueth this reason of the latency of his Church and of the want of administration of the word and Sacrament in former ages with whom it seemes you Newserus in iudgment do ioyne But to poyze the weight of this reason Where first I must put you in mind that it being approoued maketh the protestant Church to be wholy inuisible in former tymes and so destroyeth the mayne Thesis or Tenet mantayned by you all in the begining of this disputation who ioyntly did auer that the Protestant Church was in all ages visible the professours of it were knowne and discernable But to let that passe Thus I argue in further disproouall of this your poore refuge The Church of God vnder persecution eyther communicateth openly with the false visible Church in participation of Sacraments and externall profession of Fayth Or els she doth refraine from all such externall communion If she doth not communicate with it then by such her refrayning she is made knowne and consequently is become therevisible If she doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church as you repute the Church of Rome to be then is she not the true Church since the true Church cannot brooke any such dissimulation I will enlarge my selfe vpon the seuerall parts of this Argument And first that the true Church by not communicating with a false Church is in regard of the persecution comming thereby made visible is cleere euen in reason it selfe For who are persecuted but Men that are knowne And how can one lying secretly and vnknowne be sayd to be persecuted A point so euident that M. Curtwright confesseth that the Church vnder persecution is visible and sensible for els sayth he how could it be persecuted Yea he further thus contesteth with his Aduersary saying To let passe both Scriptures and storyes Ecclesiasticall haue you forgotten what is sayd in the first of Exodus that the more the children of Israel were persecuted the more they encreased With whom agreeth M. Iewell saying The Church is placed vpon a mount her persecutions cannot be hid I may truly ad herto that the greater and more violent the persecution is the more visible knowne and conspicuous is the Church made thereby like to a ship which the more it is tossed with waues and storms the higher to the eye it appeareth or like vnto an Arch in building which the greater weight and burden it beares the more strong and firme it remaynes The truth of which point is further warrantable from the example of the persecution in the Primitiue Church which of all pressures of the Church was incomparably the greatest And yet we find that the particular Bishops Confessours Martyrs are euen to this day made knowne who they were and what Heresyes or false Religion they impugned And this from the penns not only of Catholicke Historiographers but euen of Protestants of which subiect you may peruse the Centurists Pantaleon Functius Osiander and M. Fox And may not the English Catholicks if I be truly informed deseruedly here insist in the Examples of their owne Nation The Catholicks whereof in regard of their former persecutions in Queene Elizabeth her reigne are so far from being latent and inuisible as that they were become most famous remarkable throughout all Christendome O pietatem de crudelitate lndentem Are not the names and memoryes of those reuerend Priests and others of the Laity to speake nothing of many worthy Confessours and others suffering great losses and disgraces who lost their liues in her dayes only for Religion whose blessed soules I humbly beseech to interceede and pray for me to our Sauiour Are not their names and memories I say euen to this day fresh and liuing haue their deaths obliterated extinguished their memoryes or rather through a speaking silence perpetuated and eternized them their liues being by this meanes extended beyond their liues Who by reason of their then calamities and pressures too well knowne to God and Man became balls to that state and might iustly complayne in the words of the Apostle Spectaculum facti sumus mundo Angelis Hominibus Such were the stormy flouds innundations and ouerflowings of persecution in the sayd Queenes tyme. But to returne and to apply this here said If the Catholicks in this Country being but a small part of Christendome could not but for some few number of yeares in comparison escape the search and hands of their persecutors but became therby most visible and knowne the very Ayre ecchoing forth their miseryes How could then the Protestants being supposed to be dispersed throughout many Nations lye hid and auoid for so many ages together as is pretended the force of that persecution which is affirmed by our Aduersaryes to haue bene far more greiuous then euer this of England was NEVSERVS I pray you Michaeas descend to the second part of your former Argument And first tell me your iudgment if it be not lawfull for auoyding of losse of goods or death it selfe sometymes to conceale our Religion MICHAEAS No we neuer ought to conceale our profession of fayth for feare of any punishment how great soeuer for here nolle confiteri negare est And though we are not to importune persecution for this were to tempt God or to take a spirituall pride in our afflictions for our Profession of fayth yet if the temporall Prince do impose any miseryes vpon vs our Religion we are with all alacrity Christian magnanimity patiently to endure the same euer continuing in our former Religion loyalty and obedience and powring cut our daily prayers to the Almighty that he would vouchsafe to touch the sayd Princes hart with commiseration of our despicable and betrampled estates and to grant him all true temporall and eternall happines our selfs in the meane tyme euer remayning confortable Quid hic mali est cuius reus gaudet cuius accusatio votum est paena faelicitas But I will come to the second branch which contayneth the reason of this my Assertion Which was That if the Church of Christ doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church she ceaseth ipso facto to be the true Church of God This is most euident out of Gods sacred Writ which teacheth vs. that with the hart a man beleiueth vnto Iustice and with the mouth confesseth vnto saluation Which text is truly paraphrazed by D. Field in these words Seing the Church is the multitude of them that shal be saued And no man can be saued vnlesse he make Confession â—nto saluation for fayth hid and concealed in the hart
doth not suffice It cannot be but they which are of the true Church must by the profession of the Truth make themselfs knowne in such sort that by their profession and practise they may be discerned from other men A point further receauing it most warrantable truth from Truth himselfe who thus threatneth Whosoeuer shall deny me before Men him I will deny before my Father in Heauen And from hence it is that the Protestants themselues thinke they are obliged in conscience not to be present at the Seruice or Masse of the Catholicke Church or to participate with the Catholicks in their Sacraments Which kind of Recusancy is punctually taught by D. Willet Melancthon Peter Martyr Bucer and Caluin But to draw towards an end of this your pretext of persecution The same is refuted euen from the nature of the Church delineated in Gods holy Word and accordingly acknowledged by you Protestants For if the Church of God must at all tymes be visible and eminent as is largly proued by vs all in the first part of this discourse and must be eminent in so full a manner as that we are commanded to repayre to the Church in all our spirituall Necessityes according to those words of our Sauiour Tell the Church c. And if the administration of the Word and Sacraments must euen to the end of the World euer and at all tymes be practized in the Church of Christ How then can the Church but by these meanes become most visible or rather most radiant The force of which reason I will conclude with the words of D. Humfrey thus wryting Dum ministri docent alij discunt illi sacramenta administrant hi communicant omnes Deum inuocant fidem suam profitentur Qui ista non videt talpa est caecâ—or Whyles the Ministers do teach and others do heare whyles these Men do administer the Sacraments those do communicate or participate of them whyles all do call vpon God and professe their fayth He that doth not see these things is more blynd then a moale NEVSERVS Haue you not often obserued Michaeas how a little qu 〈…〉 tity of copper in a counterfeyte Coyne And yet neyther is the corne or gould extinguished or annihilated But that it may be truly sayd the Corne and chaffe is mingled together the gould and Copper moulted together And yet neyther is the Corne chaffe nor the gould copper Why then by the like analogy proportion may it not be here auerred that the Protestant Church was in former ages in the Papacy the Papcy was in the Protestant Church and yet the Protestant Church was not the Papacy Which being granted freeth our Church from an absolute Inuisibility at least from an vtter extinction and ouerthrow of it in those former Popisn tymes And to my remembrance I haue read certayne learned Protestants expressing this point not much differently from my words for I find M. Parkins thus to allude to this saying The Church of Rome may be said to be in the Church of God and the Church of God in the Church of Rome with whom D. Whitakers seemes to conspyre thus wryting Ecclesia ver a fuit in Papatu sed Papatus non fuit Ecclesia vera And with these former euen Beza besids others doth agree saying voluit Deus in Papatu seruare Ecclesiam et si Papatus non est Ecclesia Which answere is thought so sufficient and choaking as that the former learned Protestant M. Parkings much resteth vpon it thus euen exulting This answere serues to stop the mouths of Papists who demaund of vs where the Church was fourescore yeres before Luther for they are answered that our Church hath bene since the dayes of the Apostles and that in the very middest of the Papacy MICHAEAS O how ingenious and pregnant Niuserus is Nouelisme in fayth spining like the silke worme out of it owne wombe such fine threeds of wit But alas these threeds are too weake to detayne and hould the Aduersary This diuersion of yours rather then answere consisteth of a froath of words artificially put togeather And indeed it partly resembleth your own former similitude For the matter as I may say of it is euen 〈…〉 ase mettall guilded ouer with a specious show of mysticall phrazes For you Protestants seing you are not able to instance particularly in any one man during so many ages as from the Apostles dayes to Luther who was a perfect Protestant much lesse to instance in the administration of the Word and Sacraments And also perceauing by Experience that it soundeth in the eare couldly and indeede harshly to grant in plaine and direct words that the Protestant Church during all those ages was wholy extinct and vanished away out of the world and further remembring that great huge burdens are better remooued by sleight of witty Engins then by strength haue at length resolued to deliuer this your doctrine or Position in an affected and obscure phraze thereby as vnder aueyle or clowd to shadow the falshood thereof saying as aboue you alledge The Church is in the Papacy the Papacy is in the Church And yet the Church is not the Papacy Thus do you here imitate physitians who giue physicke to delicate bodyes not in the grosse substance but eyther in infusion or extraction This curious frame of speech maks as I sayd a glorious show at the first but examine it and it presently resolues to nothing like vnto the lightning which is an eminent Obiect to the eye and yet it no sooner commeth then it vanisheth Now for the better discouery displaying of this your sleight you are here to conceaue that the sense of these words is not that the Protestant Church had in those tymes a latent and hidden being in Catholicke Countreyes without hauing entercourse or Communion with the then knowne and visible Church in the Sacraments For so the true Church could not be said to be in the Papacy no more then at this day in respect of it like aboadin Turkish Countreyes it can be sayd to be in Turcisme Therefore the particular manner of this strange and stupendious mixture together for externall Society like chaffe and Corne in due heape or copper and gould in one coyne is truly expressed by Osiander the Protestant in these words Quod semper sub Papatu aliqui pij homines fuerint qui errores Pontificios idolatrica sacra improbarunt temetsi id non semper profiteri and ebant nemo negat No man denyeth but that there were euer vnder the Papacy some holy men who disliked the Errors of the Popes and their Idolatrous worshipps although they durst not openly professe so much Nisi ardere aut ad minimum exulare velint except they would burne for their Religion or at least suffer banishment And yet the said Protestant more fully Animum ad ist a poÌ„tificia idolatrica sacra non applicusrunt
may challenge the Scripture for the fortifying of his Heresyes as fully as we Protestants can do And therefore I do allow that former sentence of Vincentius alledged by you Neuserus D. REYNOLDS I haue found some of our owne learned brethren to teach though aforehand I tell you Michaeas that I dissent in opinion from them that the Church of Rome and the Protestant Church are but one and the same Church from which position they inferre that seeing the predictions of the continuall Visibility of the Church of God and an vninterrupted administration of the Word and Sacraments haue bene performed at least as you Romanists do auerâ—e in the Church of Rome that consequently ours and yours being but one Church they are performed in the Protestant Church And according hereto we find M. Hooker thus to teach We gladly acknowledg them of Rome to be of the family of Iesus Christ c. And agayne we say that they of Rome c. are to be held a part of the house of God a limme of the visible Church of Christ with whome conspireth D. Some thus graunting The learneder Wryters acknowledge the Church of Rome to be the Church of God But this Opinion I haue to the liberty of euery one eyther to retayne it or reiect it MICHAEAS Here now you Protestants are retyred to your last refuge and hould And thus is Errour glad to be shrowded vnder the Wings of Truth For whereas the most dispassionate sober learned Protestants among you do grant that for many ages before Luthers reuolt they cannot truly and really iustify the visibility of their Church in particular much lesse the administration of the word and Sacraments And yet during all the sayd ages they see that all this is actually accomplished in our Catholicke Roman Church They are therefore forced to giue back and to retyre in all their former answeres And at length are driuen for the supporting of their owne Church to say that the Protestant Church the Roman Catholicke Church are identically but one and the same Church And thereupon they inferre as you M. Doctour say that seing our Catholicke Church be generall acknowledgment hath euer continued visible during all the former ages that therefore your Protestant Church both being but one and the same by their curteous yeelding hath also enioyed the same priuiledge of a perpetuall Visibility and the like administration of the Word and Sacraments So ready you Protestants are for the preseruing only of your owne imaginary Church in former tymes to ioyne hands with they Catholicks if so they would agree therto you granting that your owne Succession calling and Ministery is and hath bene for former ages continued and preserued only in the Succession calling Ministery of our Catholicke Roman Church And according to this our meaning M. Bunny a Protestant of good esteeme here in England dealeth plainly ingeniously herein for he not only teacheth as the former Protestants do but giueth sincerely the true reason of such their doctrine to wip that otherwise they cannot proue the being of the Protestant Church during so many former ages for thus he writeth Of the departing from the Church there ought to be no question amang vs. We are no seuerall Church front them meaning from vs Catholicks nor they from vs And therefore there is no departing at all out of the Church Nor any do deparâ— from them to vs nor from vs to them c. And yet more fully It was euill done of them who vrged first such a separation c. For that it is great probability for them meaning vs Catholicks that so we make our selfâ— answerable to find out a distinct and seuer all Church from them which hath continued from the Apostles age to this present Or els that needs we must acknowledge that our Church is sprung vp but of late or since theirs And finally M. Bunny thus concludeth Our Aduersaryes see themselues to haue aduantage if they can ioynt vs to this separation Thus M. Bunny But touching my particular iudgment herein I vtterly with all Catholicks disclayme from mantayning that our Church and the Protestant Church is all one And I confidently auerre that this strange Paradox is inuented by Protestants for the reasons aboue expressed OCHINVS What is the matter brought to this Issue that we must grant the Papists Church and our Church to be one and the same Church Is this M. Doctour the euent of our disputation I will here imprecate with the Poet against myselfe Sed mihi vel tellus optem priùs ima debiscat Vel Pater Omnipotens adigat â—â—fulâ—ine ad vmbraâ— Pallâ—â—ies vmbras Erebi â—octeâ—que profundam Before I acknowledge the Synagogue of Rome to be the Church of God NEVSERVS I giue you free leaue Ochinâ—s to include me within this your imprecation For I will dye the death of a sinner before I grant that the Popish Church is the same with the Protestant Church What shall Superstition and Idolatry by our owne consents be aduanced and set vp side by side with the Gospell in the throwne of Gods Tabernacle It is a thing insufferable and the thought thereof is not so much as once to be entertayned MICHAEAS Gentlemen good words God grant your owne Prayers agaynst your selfs be not heard And though I be of your mynd that the Catholicke Church and your Church is not all one Church yet if before your deaths you do not acknowledge the Church of Rome for the true Church doublesly your prayer wil be heard when your selfs though too late shall with vnutterable but improfitable remoâ—se condemne your selfs of your owne grosse consideration in so weighty a matter But M. Doctour and you two Hitherto we see our discourse hath bene cheifly spent in your obiecting Arguments for your Churches visibility and my answering of them Now I do expect that our Scenes be altered And that I may insist in obiecting what I haue red confessed euen by the most learned Protestants touching this subiect For these alternatiue variations of parts in dispute are in all Reason and by custome of all Schooles most warrantable D. REYNOLDS We giue you good leaue For it argueth a great distrust diffidence in a Mans cause to tye his aduersary only to answere and neuer to suffer him to oppose And it is as vnreasonable as if in a Duelisme the one party should be indented with only toward and neuer to sryke Therefore proceed Michâ—â—s at your pleasure MICHAEAS Truth sayth S. Augustin iâ— mâ—re foroible to wrâ—ng 〈◊〉 Confession then any rackâ— or tormâ—nt Which sentence we fyâ—d to be iustifyed in this Question of the Protestant Churches Inuisibility For diuers learned Protestants there are who as being more ingenuous and vpright in their wrytings and in their managing of matters of Religion then others of their party as well discerning the insufficiency of all pretended Instances and other colorable euasions and answeares which
serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant do in the closure of all both by certaine necessary inferences as also in playne and expresse tearmes grant the point here controuerted to wit that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather bene wholy inuisible and not knowne to any one man liuing or rather that during such said ages it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne destroyed and as it were annihilated and no such Church in being The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage This point then is prooued two wayes and both from the penns of the Protestants First from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling Secondly from their manifest open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words or rather of it vtter extinction Nullity And as touching the first It is euident euen in reason it selfe that that Church which wanteth succession of Pastours ordinary Calling if any such Church could be must needes be inuisible at least at that tyme when such want is And the reason hereof is because this want necessarily presupposeth that there were not in that supposed Church any former Predecessours or Pastours at all which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers But where no Pastours are there are no sheepe for it is written how shall they heare without a Preacher And where no sheepe are there is no Church And where is no Church there is no visisibility of it since euen Logicke instructeth vs that Non Eutis â—â—n est Accidens That the Protestant Church for many ages hath wanted all personall succession and ordinary Calling is ouereuident seeing besides that which hath bene sayd of this point already we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse For thus doth Sadellius write Diuers Protestants affirme that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes which they do attribute only to the Papists And hence it is that many Protestants confesse that they are forced to flye to Extraordinary Calling which is immediatly from God without any help of man Thus for example Caluin saith Quia Papae tyrannide c. Because through the tyrannâ— of the Pope true succession of Ordination was broken off therefore we stand neede of a new course herein and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary Thus Caluin And D. Fulke in like manner sayth The Protestants that first preached in these dayes had extraordinary Calling with whom agreeth D. Parkins saying The calling of Wâ—cklefe Hus Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martyr c. was extraordinary Thus we see that the Protestants confessing the want of personall succession in their Church as also the want of Ordinary Vocation and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation do euen by such their Confessions acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes and an interruption next before of all personall succession for if succession of Pastours had then bene really truly in being then had those men bene visible to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles as aboue is showed in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants or otherwise it is but a meere illusion And we haue not red or heard that any of those first Protestants who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling haue euer wrought in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine any one Miracle OCHINVS I must confesse Michaeas that you haue discussed well of this poynt and in my iudgment very forcingly But proceed we intreate you to the second branch of your Proofe since I can hardly belieue that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church for if they do then is the Question at an end and hath receaued it vttermost tryall that can be imagined MICHAEAS The euent will seale the truth of this point And first that immediatly before Luthers reuolt the Protestant Church was inuisible Vibanus Regius a markable Protestant confesseth so much But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance we haue already fully discoursed and therefore we will ascend to higher times M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote We say that before the day of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the world Caelius Secundus Curio an eminent Protestant confesseth no lesse in these words Factum est vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ac ne vix quidem agnosci potuerint c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely and indeed not as all be knowne of others D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point saying The Church in the tyme of Bonifacâ— the third which was anno 607. was inuisible and fleed into wildernes there to remayne a long season M. Napper riseth to higher tymes thus wrytinge God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open assemblyes to the harts of particular godly men c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares the true Church abiding latent and inuisible With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. Brocard an English Protestant But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church for the former tymes only but inuolueth more ages therein thus auerâ—ing During euen the second and third Ages meaning after Christ the true Church of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe But Sebastianus francus a most remarkable Protestant ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility all the ages since the Apostles thus wryting for certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares marke the lenght of the tyme the Church hath beene no wâ—eare externall and visible Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme or rather longer is likewise made by D. Fulke in these words The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham with whom I will heare conclude is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles within the lyke latency thus wrytinge The generall defection of the visible Church foretouâ—d 2. Thessal 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes Good God Would any Man hould it possible were it not that their owne books are yet extant that such eminent Protestants should confesse
contrary to the necessary Visibility of Gods true Church proued out of the Scriptures acknowledged by their owne learned Brethren their owne Church to haue beene wholy latent and inuisible or rather wholy extinct and annihilated for so many ages together But this we must asâ—rybe O God to thy holy permission who as thou suffered in the tyme of the Old TestameÌ„t thyne Enemyes to sheath their swords in their brethrens sydes so heare thoâ— permiteest for the greater honour of thy Church so many learned Protestants euen with wounderfull admiration sweete Iesus deadly to wounde their owne Church fayth and Religion with their owne penns D. REYNOLDS Forbeare Michaeas these woundering Interiections the accustomed Dialect of an vngouerned Passion I grant these learned Protestants aboue alledged were of this opinion Notwithstanding to confront their authorityes there may be found many others as learned and iudicious Protestants as these are who absolutly mantayne the Visibility of their Church for all ages And I see no reason but that the sentences and iudgemeÌ„ts of these other should preponderate and weighe equally with the iudgements of the former Protestants by you alledged MICHAEAS You must pardon me M. Doctour if I wounder at things so strangly and vnexpectedly fauling out But to your solution I say it is most defectiue for seuerall reasons First because it mainly crosseth the method agreed vpon amonge vs in the beginninge of our discourse where you tyed your selfe irrephâ—ably to stand to the iudgments and confession of your owne learned Men. Againe though you can bringe other Protestants of as greate eminency for learninge as these by me obiected yet except you and the said Protestants will insist in true and confessed Instances of Protestancy for euery seuerall age which is impossible for you to performe your and their asseuerations are to be reputed but naked verball and inauayleable Lastly and principally your Replye is insufficient Becaus I heare alledge Protestants confessinge the Inuisibility of their owne Church to their owne mighty preiudice and the Catholycks greate aduantage And therefore it must needs be that the racke of Truth forced them being otherwyse ingenuous learned and iudicious to all such Confessions Whereas such Protestants as may be brought to gainsay and contradict the former Confession as being men of more spatious and large Consciences do spake in their owne cause and behalf and therefore as being ready pressed to auere any thinge how false soeuer for the safery of their Church are deseruedly to be reputed in their wrytings more partiall So as in this case the Words of Tertullian may iustly take place Magis fides prouâ— est in aduersus sometâ—psos confitentâ—â— quam pro 〈◊〉 â—egantes NEVSERVS I lyke well Michaeas the reason of your disparity geuen touching some Protestants confessing against themselfs and others affirming the contrary to their owne aduantage OCHINVS The difference set downe by you is most foreible for no doubte the open Confession of one learned Aduersary is to ouerballance twenty denying the same euen for that peculiar reason aboue mentioned D. REYNOLDS Michaeas Suppose for the tyme that we could not proue our Churches perpetuali Visibility yet seinge you are not able if you were pressed thereto to iustify and make good the Visibility of your owne Roman Church during all the ages since the Apostles dayes Therefore looke into what danger through our confessed Inuisibility we may be presumed to tune within the same we may justly includ you And thus you owne argument rebucts vpon your selfe MICHAEAS Heare I see M. D. that for meare want of positiue arguments to support your owne Church you are lastly fled to picke quarrells at our Church as if it were a iustification of yourselfs that wee Catholycks did labour with your infirmities lyke men who reioyce to haue compartuers in misery But to your point vrged say it is impertinent to the whole drift of our dispute which was only touching the want of Visibility in the Protestant Church which alone to proue was by me vndertaken the visibilitye of the Catholycke Church comminge in incidently lyke as a discours of vice doth often in the End biget some specches of Vertue our Contrary being thus brought to our remembrance by meanes of the other Contrary But because M. D. you shall discouer no tergiuersation in vs herein and that here to entreate of the continuall Visibility of our Catholycke Church violateth our former imposed method Therefore I will pawne my credit that there shal be left with you certaine prouffs conâ—ayninge the expresse and confessed Visibility of our Roman Church from the Apostles to these dayes And this by the acknowledgment of sundry learned Protestants though heare by the way I must tell you that the confessed Inuisibility of the Protestant Church during so many former Ages doth potentially and vertually include the proufe of the Visibility of our Roman Church during the said ages Seing the Inuisibility of your Church for so longe a tyme is ascribed by you Protestants as appeareth by many of the former Protestants testimonyes to be the worke of Antichtist you meaninge thereby the Pope and the Church of Rome therefore it ineuitably followeth from your owne Primisses that Popes and the Church of Rome haue euer beene visible during all the said former Ages and Centuryes OCHINVS Newserus I would haue a word or two with you in priuate therefore if it please you let vs walke a little a part NEVSERVS I am willingthereto go into the next roome and I will follow you OCHINVS You see here Neuserus how this Question of the Protestant Churches visibility hath bene discussed and argued And I must consesse that Michaeas hath euen in replicably demonstrated that the Protestant Church hath at least for many ages bene inuisible or rather extinct you see also how royatous and abounding the old Testamentâ—s in prophecyes and other testimonies that the Church in the daye of the true Messias shal be at all cyâ—res most conspicuous and visible Therefore what resteth but that eyther we must reiect the old Testament which I neuer will do for falsly prophetying of the state of the Church Or els we must denye that these tymes of the new Testament are the tymes of Grace that the Church erected by Christ and his Apostles as wanting the accomplishment of the foresayd predictions is the true Church which later poynt I hould to be more probable NEVSERVS You haue preuented me Ochinus in tyme of speaking but not in iudgment For to confesse the truth after I had obserued the weaknes of the Instances alledged though alledged by the Doctour with as much Scholarlike Art and aduantage as might be my houering thoughts transported my iudgment to this your Center Which though it be enuironed with difficultyes yet I hould it the more safe way with you since the one must necessarily be reiected as false and erroneous they so diametrically crossing one the other to retayne our former reuerence to
the old Testament and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New And therefore let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour to acquaint them with this our finall resolution OCHINVS Michaeas and M. Doctour My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons in disprouall of your instances of our owne former euading answeres And our Conclusion is that we both assure our selfs that the ProtestaÌ„t Church had neuer any visible existence for these many last seuerall ages at the least And in deed I confesse when I do consider how Christ by his power wisdome and goodnes had established and founded his Church washed it with his bloud and enriched it with his spirit and discerning how the same is funditus auersa vtterly ouerthrowne I cannot but wonder and being desirous to know the cause I find there haue bene Popes who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church Here you haue my ceusure accompanyed with the true Reason thereof NEVSERVS I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments And yet I hope this is no blemish eyther to you M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt nor to our selfs but only to the weaknes of our cause for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable and among them rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church that neyther learning Art or the bestfiled words which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity are able to set a good gayne vpon them Therefore Michaeas to be snort in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours MICHAEAS I much reioyce thereat and I hope notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility OCHINVS Stay Michaeas Not so You are ouer hasty your praeÌ„ is as yet not gotten and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore first that touching your Church at the stearâ—e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit we hould it not as aboue we protested to be the Church of God And then it matâ—reth nothing with vs whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being bene visible or no For though we teach that the true Church must euer be visible yet we teach not conuertibly that what Church hath euer bene visible the same is the true Church Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour take both you notize that the confessed want of a continuall visibility and of the administration of the word and Sacraments ministreth to vs a great suspicion whether the Church of Christ be that Church of God which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World For if he had so been doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse for so the true Church of God is after his departure from hence NEVSERVS What Ochinusâ—ath â—ath deliuered though perhapps with amazement to you both I do here iustify And as it is euident that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church So we must needs rest doubtfull at the least through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law And whether he had true authority to erect this Church of which he hath made himselfe Head â—or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit touching the Messias and his Church are infallibly to be performed in the Messias his Church MICHAEAS How now my Maysters Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility Tends your approbation of my former discours to this Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion latitude and continuall visibility of the Church of God are not performed in the Protestant Church And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes as your selfs would haue them Take heed do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions charactered in your soules at your Baptisme neyther now diâ—auoâ—â— your then taken first now O mercifull God how ignorant are you in these matters And then more miserably ignorant it that partly through learning you are become ignorant Do you thinke to honour the Father by dâ—shonoring the Sonne euen that Sonne in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment Hic est filius meus dilectus in quo mihi complacui Certayne it is that if you perseuer in iudgment as your words import you deny him for your Sauiour who had a Father without a Mother a Mother without a Father The first argued his Diuinity the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity Quod de Deo profectum est 〈…〉 eus est Dei Filius Vnus Ambo You deny him whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature as that the earth did then contrary to it accustomed manner euen power it influence vpon Heauens To be shorâ— you deny him who gaue himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all who tasted death for all who tooke away the sinnes of the World and finally who was Sauiour of the world and reconciliation for our sinnes In the tyme of whose Passion death did euen â—euiâ—e and Eclips did enlighten Lux in tenebris lucet tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt But why labour I to celebrate his byrth who is from all eternity or to performe his exequies who cannot dye Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur And by you assured that who contemne Christ the Redeemer of all flesh must needs contemne God the Authour of all flesh And where you call the Pope that Romish Antichrist see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne is seems that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come How can the Pope then by your doctrine be Antichrist since Antichrist you know is to come after not before the true Christ Againe for prouffe that the Pope is Antichrist you no doubt will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New Testament And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you to proue that Christ is the true Messias OCHINVS Tush Michaeas This is but
we shall losse you so soone Only I would entreate you to haue in your discourses wheresoeuer you shall hereafter come a tender and gentill touch of the Protestant Church of all the true and constant members thereof And herewith Worthy Michaeas I take my last farewell MICHAEAS M. Doctour of your selfe I will euer speake answerably to your desarts Nobly and with great respect Since you are a Man whose barke is richly fraught with learning Morality And what defects haue bene committed by you in this dispute I do wholy ascribe them to your want of a good cause not to your want of good parts And if there haue bene any words misplaced by vs on eyther syde sâ—t the thought of them vanish away since they were spoken Antagonisticeâ— and in heaâ—e of disputation And so in all kindnes Christian charity I leaue you with this my aduise that you will not aduenture your saluation vpon your owne priuate conscience preferring it before the Iudgement and conscience of the vniuersall visible Catholicke Church As for you two fagotts of Hell-fire I grant my eyes euen sparkle forthâ—râ—ge in behoulding of you And I account contrary to the place of the burning bush the place wherin you stand to be cursed ground â—or since your Sunne is so fâ—rie of you I meane your excepted false Messias what can you looke but for a winter of could dispayre and damnation Therefore I will take leaue with you in the phraze of the Apostle to Elymas the Magitian and what greater Magicke then for one to be enchaâ—ted to beleiue that Christ is a seâ—ucer O you full of all subtilty and mischeife the Sonns of the Deuill enemyes of all iustice who cease not to peruert the right wayes of our Lord Adieu OCHINVS You enioy Michaeas the liberty of your Tongue but â—age you well NEVSERVS Let him go I will nor take leaue with him such opprobrious speeches he vseth against vs. OCHINVS Now M. Doctour Michaeas is gonne And now we haue the more freedome of speech among our selfs without feare of being ouerheard I know that not only yonder black-mouthd Michaeas but your selfe also rest much disedisyed at our abâ—enunciation of Christianity But M. Doctour come to the point We see the Prophecyes of the old Testament which must euer remayne sacred permanent and 〈…〉 uiolable do shew that the Church of God in the dayes of the Messias must euer be visible knowne and conspicuous and must in all ages without any intermission enioye a publicke and externall administration of the Word and Sacraments And this is abundantly confessed not only by vs all in the front of this our disputation but by all learned men whosoeuer We now notwithstanding such necessity therof cannot but confesse that the accomplishment of the sayd Prophecyes hath not bene effected in the Church of Christ at leâ—st in the Protestant Church how then can the Church of Christ be that true Church of the Messias which is so gloriously deliueaâ—ed with the penalls of the Prophets Now what other resultancy can be out of the premises then that the Church of Christ as wanting the fulfilling of the former diuine Oracles is not the true Church of God and consequently that Christ is the true Messias Sauiour of the World except we will grant which I neuer will the Papists Church as hauing by relation of Michaeas the Prophecies performed in it to be the sole Church of God Therefore so farre as toucheth my selfe I do renounce my former Christian fayth and will embrace the auncient Law of Moyses and as intending to be seruiceable to that Religion I will teach the doctrine of Circumcision and will instantly write a booke of the lawfulnes of Polygamie or plurality of Wyues aunciently practized by the â—ewes in the old Testament though now by Christians houlden as vnlawfull and altogether proâ—â—ibited NEVSERVS By the Lord of Heauen I cannot see how this difficulty can otherwyse be salued then either by denyinge the Gospell of the New Testament or by granting the Church of Rome to be the true Church which my Soule abhorrs to do For as concerning the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church It cannot be made good notwistanding our great ventitation thereof afore in our Words And therefore it were honesty in vs now in the end to pull of our Visards through which wee spooke to Michaeas and plainly confese the truth herein And here M. D. to take a short view of all the discours passed and to examine it impartially a monge our selfs We cannot but obserue that the Exemples produced by you were most insufficient first because they were no Protestants at all Secondly in that admitting them for Protestants they but only serue as Michaeas well noted to iustify the Visibility of Protestants only for those tymes neither you nor wee being able to produce but only for for me sake any one confessed Example of Protestancy for the space of six hundred yeers at the least Againe when Ochinus and my selfe perceaued that no true instances of Protestancy could be giuen I grant we vsed diuers euasions and inflexious to and froe and all for the sauing of our Churches honour As first to pretend though God knowes a silly pretence that all Relations and testimonyes of Protestants in former ages were by the Popes industry and tyranny vtterly extinct That fayling then we made show for in our priuat iudgments we could not really thinke it That the Protestants in former tymes were forced to lye secret and latent in regard of the supposed then raging Persecution That playne answere not seruinge then we thought good to inuolue and roule our said euasion touchinge Persecution in a certaine obscure and darke sentence to wit That the Church was in the Papacy the Papacy in the Church and yet the Church was not the Papacy a forme of words as Michâ—as truly â—â—id forged by vs Protestants only to cast a â—yst in the eyes of the vnlearned The next we fled for our surest but indeed sham full refuge vnto the Scripture pretending our Church to be consonant to it and therefore euer visible a cours which indifferently lyeth open to euery Heretyke After all which if you remember M. D. your selfe did politikly touch vpoÌ„ that opinion though not with any greate approbation of it which for sauing our Church from it vtter ruine teacheth that the Papists Church and Ours are all one But did you marke how Michaeas neuer ceased till he had ferretted vs out of all our former Connyhoales be in the end irrephably and choakingly prouing from our owne learned Mens penns the mayne question now controuerted among vs Now M. D. seeing I am irrefragably resolued not to admit the Papists Church for the true Church though perhapps it hath enioyed the fulfilling of the forementioned Prophecyes I do therefore conspyre in iudgment herein with Ochinus and ame determined to haue this Country from whence I will retyre myselfe into the Palatinate where
thereof Lastly this Inference drawne from the state of the old Testament and applyed to the New is most inconsequent Both because the New Testament is better established then the old seing to it is promised that the gates of Hell shall not preuayle against Christs Church And also it is styled The pillar and foundation of truth And finally in that the Peoples of the Iewes were not the Vniuersal Church of God as the People of the Christians are And therefore out of the Iewish Synagogue there were diuers others of the faythfull and Iust as Melchisedech Iob Cornelius the Centurion the Eueuch of Queen of Candice c. This ended this Triffler in pag. 6. seuerall other places meÌ„tioneth the vsuall Obiection taken from the words of Elias saying relictu sum solus But this is fully satisfyed in the first part or begining of the former Dialogue In the next place to wit pag. 10. he commeth to depres the glory of the Church of Christ during his aboade here vpon earth and tyme of his Passion but all this most impertinently seing the radiant splendour and Visibility of Christ his Church was cheiffly to beginne and then for euer after to continue till the worlds end after the descending of the Holy Ghost and not before This done the Authour commeth to the tymes of the Tenn Persecutions by the Heathen Emperours prouing from thence the obscurity of Christs Church in pag. 25. To which I answere that these Persecutions according to the nature of persecution were so far from making the Church of Christ in those dayes inuisible as that it became thereby most visible seeing none are persecuted but visible Men And the very names of the cheiffe Martyrs of those dayes are yet most fresh and honorable in the memoryes of all good Christians euen to this very hower they remayning yet registred in the Ecclesiasticall Historyes both of Catholicks and Protestants In pag. 26. he instanceth in the tymes of the Arians and produceth Saint Ieromes testimony and words to wit The whole World did sâ—ght and wounder that it was Arian from which authority he would proue the Inuisibility of Christs Church in those dayes But here the Authour discouereth his ignorance For here First Ierome calleth that by the figâ—â—e Synecdoche the whole World which is but a part of the World S Ierome meaning only of certaine parts of Christen 〈◊〉 Secondly S. Ierome here taketh the word Arian in a secundarye signification For here he calleth them improperly and Abusiue Arians who through Ignorance did subscrybe to the Arian Heresy For he speaketh of that great number of Bishops which came out of all parts of Christendum to Arimine and were deceaued by the Arians through their mistaking of the greeke Word Omosios and there vpon Materially only they subscrybed to the Heresy of the Arians But the same Bishopps being after admonished of their errour did instantly correct the same and bewayled their mistaking with teares and penance Thus we se the true relation of this poynt really proueth an actuall Visibility of the Orthodoxall Christians at that very tyme. Pag. 27. He insisteth in Athanasius and Liberius as the only defendours in those dayes of Christs Diuinitie and consequently that the Church of Christ did only rest in them two For thus he wryteth The Church for any externall show was brought low for if any body held it vp it was Athanasius who then played least in sight and durst not appeare Heere is strang and wilfull mistaking for though it be granted that Athanasius in regard of his feruour and learning was more persecuted by the Arians then any other Bishop yet to â—auer that himselfe alone or Liberius did only impugne the Heresy of Arius and that there were no other Orthodoxall Beleiuers at that tyme is most improbable or rather most absurd This is proued first from the Councell which was assembled cheifly for the suppressing of the Arian Heresy at which Councell Athanasius hymselfe was present This Councell consisted of three hundred Bishopps and more the greatest part whereof by their voyces did absolutly condemne the Arian Heresy Now how can it be conceaued that all the said Bishopps speaking nothing of the Orthodoxall Laity of that tyme excepting only Athanasius should instantly either a fore or after apostatate or through feare of Persecution externally profes the Arian Heresy Againe the truth of this poynt is further confirmed from the Epistle which Athanasius and the Bishops of Thebes and Lybia gathered together in the Councell of Alexandria did wryte to Pope Paelix the Second of that name wherein they vnanimously protest to defend with all Christian resolution their Orthodoxall fayth against their Enemyes the Arians Thirdly the falshood of the former Assertion is euicted from that that many Fathers and Doctours liuing in the very age of Aâ—hanasius and Libertus and diuers of them euen in the dayes of Athanasius and well knowne to hym did refute and contradict ex professo the Arian Heresy in their learned wrytings As for example Basil Gregory Nazianzene Gregory Nyssene Cyrill of Ierusalem Hilarius Ambrose Epiphanius and some others Now in respect of the Premisses can it be but dreamed that there should be no Professours of the Diuinity of Christ in those dayes but only Athanasius or Liberius Pag. 25. The Pamphleter leauing examples authorityes descendeth to Reason thus arguing Faith doth much consist of things which are not seene Therefore seing we beleiue the Holy Church as an article of our fayth it followeth that it needs not to be euer eminently visible or apparently sensible vnto vs. Learnedly concluded Therefore for the better instruction of this Pamphleter he is to vnderstand that in the Church of God there is something to be seene and something to be beleiued We do see that company of men which is the Church and therein the Church is euer visible But that that Company or Society is the true visible Church of God that we see not but only beleiue Euen as the Apostles did see that very Man which is Christ the Sonne of God but that he was the Sonne of God this the Apostles did not see but only beleiue In pag. 28. and 29. as also in some other pages afore he much insisteth in the words spoken of the Woman in the Reuelations cap. 12. of whom it was prophecyed that she should flye into the Wildernes affirming that by the Woman is vnderstood the Church which is not to be seene in tyme of persecution To this I answere first this passage being taken from out of the Reuelations cannot as euidently to vs men proue any thing seing the Reuelations being deliuered in visions prophecyes many of them being yet vnaccomplished and figuratiue speeches we cannot so easily apprehend the true sense meaning of them Secondly What diuers learned Catholicks and some Protestants do vnderstand by the Woman in the reuelations differently from the vrging of
Word and vse of the Sacraments as Notes And thus they reiecting all former Catholicke Notes do reduce as aboue is said the determining of which is the true Church to the inappealable and last Resort of their owne priuate opinions passed vpon the true preaching of the Word and the due administration of the Sacraments But now to come to the Question it selfe touching these Protestant Notes Where the â—eader for the more cleare setting downe of the state of the Question and his owne better instruction is to conceaue first that these Protestant Notes supposing them to be Notes of the Church prooue only the place where the Church is but not which is the Church Which here is only the Question Secondly the Reader is to call to mind that whereas a Note may be of two sorts The one in respect of Nature the other in respect of vs according to the doctrine of the learned Protestants themselues thus teaching Nottus est duplex Vnum Naturae vlterum nobis that here the Question is only of such Notes as are Notes in respect of vs for our better informing which is the true Church since here we are instructed à postartori and according to the measure of that knowledg which God vouchsafes to affoard to vs. And not as they are Notes in respect of Nature Which Notes in regard of Nature are euer 〈…〉 sicall secret and often essentiall to the thing of which they are Notes Now in reference hereto we freeâ—y grant that the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments may be tearmed Notes of the Church but not Notes to vs which is the only point now isluable for though they be Notes in Nature of the true Church yet what anayleth it vs since they are not Notes to vs for our direction to find which is the true Church And here we are to remember that the Question is not what kind of Notes or what kind of knowledge is better for it is granted that scire per Causas is most perfect and noble but the Question is what kind of knowledge God is content to imparte to vs in this life for the attayning of the Mysteryes of our fâ—â—th and particularly for the knowing searching out which is his Church Now that the true preaching of the Word and vse of the Sacraments cannot be erected as notes of Christs Church I euer meane in respect of vs is seuerall wayes demonstrated And first this I prooue from the Nature of a Note which is euer to be of a greater perspicuity and clearnes and better knowne to vs then the thing is of which it is a Note Since otherwise it should follow an inference both in reason and Art most absurd that that which is vnknowne should be prooued by an other thing which is lesse knowne anâ— more obscure That the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments which is but a necessary 〈◊〉 to the true preaching of the Scripture are more obscure and vnknowne to vs then is the Church I prooue first from the Scripture which teacheth that true sayth which is the effect of true preaching the Word proceedeth only from the Ministery of the Church according to that how shall they beleiue whom they haue not heard and ho 〈…〉 sh aâ— they heare without a Preacher Thus Gods sacred Word we see doth presuppose that the Minister who is the member of the Church and consequently it followeth hereby that the Church must be afore knowne doth reueale vnto vs the true sense of the Scripture And therefore Caluin thus well sayth of this point Deus potest memo 〈…〉 sues perficere nolit tamen eos adolâ—scere in 〈…〉 ilem â—tatem nisi educatione Ecclesiae God can peâ—fect and instruct vs in a moment meaning touching fayth yet he will not bring vs to any manlike as it were and perfect strength therein but by the help and labâ—ur of the Church And hence it is that in all Controuersyes touching fayth we are alwayes for the determining of them botâ— in the iudgments of the auncient Fathers and learned Protestants referred to the Church Among whom I cannot here pretermit the sentence of D. Field thus wryting Seeing tâ—e Controuersies in our tyme are growne in number so many and in nature so intricate c. What remayneth for meâ— dâ—sirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but deligeâ—tly to search out which among all the societyes of Men in the World is that blessed Company of Holy Ones that house-hould of fayth that spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the pillar and ground of truth that so they m 〈…〉 follow her directions and reâ—i in her 〈◊〉 Thus we are instructed by this learned Protestant to know which is the true fayth in all Controuersyes and sincere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Word from the Church and not to know which is the Church from the sincere preaching of the Word Secondly that the true prea 〈…〉 of the Word and the vse of the Sacrements â—re more ob 〈…〉 and difficult to vs to be knowne then to know 〈◊〉 is the true Church appeareth from the voluntâ—â—y acknowledgments of our most iudicious Aduersaries For greater 〈◊〉 heareiâ— I will insist only in oâ—e or two And to omit the answearable iudgment hearto of D. Fyeld potentially included in his 〈…〉 met words We do fynd Iustus Molitor a learned Protestant and Aduersary in his 〈…〉 gs to Cardinal Beâ—lâ—rmyâ—e thus to confes Nobis Quo ad iud 〈…〉 s â—o fâ—sâ— alâ— qua notitià prius vera Eccles 〈…〉 quam 〈◊〉 praedicatio 〈…〉 oâ—escit c. The true Church by a cert 〈…〉 co 〈…〉 〈◊〉 so 〈…〉 kâ—oâ—ne to vs according to the iudgment of reâ—son then the preaching of the true word is knowne With whom c 〈…〉 pireth in exprâ—s Words the foresaid mentioned 〈…〉 testart Lubbertus thus wryting Sacramenta in v 〈…〉 nt nobis m 〈…〉 quam â—psa Ecclesia The true vse of the 〈…〉 ments iâ— lesse knowne â—o vs 〈◊〉 the Church And 〈◊〉 geueth his â—eason hereof in these Words Nobis notioâ—a su 〈…〉 externa signaâ—per quae remâ— quâ—â—doque cogn 〈…〉 The external signes are more man 〈…〉 st 〈◊〉 vâ— by which we know a thiâ—g 〈◊〉 heareby impâ—ying that the true administration of the word Sacraments is internal and inward in respect of the true externall Notes of the Church For although eich preaching of the Word and vse of Sacraments be externall and subâ—ect to the outward Sense yet which is the true preaching of the word and true administration of the Sacraments for as they are purely preached and sincerely administred so and no otherwise are they appoynted by the Protestants for the Marks of the Church is internal since truth in doctryne is internal and inuisible We may ad hearto that in the note of true preaching the word the beliuing receauing it so preached this with perseuerance is included
refuge enforced to compart hearein with the very Anâ—baptists fleeing for the interpreting of the Scripture to the testimony of Gods Spirit and immediate instruction of the Holy Ghost Sortably hearto we find that the foresaid D. Whitakers to reâ—er others to the Margent thus wryteth Omnes linguarum imperiti c. Al those who are ignorant in the tongues though they cannot â—udge of places whether they be truly translated or not yet they apprâ—â—e and allowe the doctrine being instructed by the Holy Ghost Thus he O you sensles Galatians who haue bewitched you For may not any â—obler Wibstar or other Mecanical fellow as by experience we daily find they do flee to this refuge for their interpreting of scripture at ouching themselfs in the interpretation thereof to be peculiarly enlightned with the spirit and instruction of the Holy â—ho 〈…〉 Which being granted what Heresies so absurd which these ignorant fellowes will not attempt to mantayne And thus far to proue that the true preaching of the word and a due administration of the Sacraments which resulteth as aboue is said by sequele out of the former Note of true preaching cannot be appoynted as Notes to vs for our direction to finde out the true Church of Christ within which we are bound vnder payne of eternall damnation to implant our selses I will suâ—uect to thâ— Premisses this pertinent aâ—imaduersion following It is this When the Catholicks do demand the Protestants to set downe certaine Notes of the true Church And they answeâ—riâ—g that that Church is the true Church which enjoyeth a true preaching of the Word and a due and auayleable administration of the Sacraments Now heare I auer that this description of Notes is but our owne question reâ—urâ—ed vs back in other tearms and consequently but a Sophisme â—â—nsistiâ—g in an idle circulation of the same poynt inâ—ested with a new forme of words For when I demand which is the true Church I vertually implicitly and according to the immediate meaning of my Words demauÌ„d which Church is that which enioyeth the true preaching of the Word and the true vse of the Sacraments since only the true Church is honored with this Kynd of preaching and distribution of Sacraments The Protestants then answearing that that is the true Church whearein are foâ—d the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments do they not giue me back my owne Question varyed in other phrazes being no other thing in sense then to say That Church which enioyeth the true preaching of the word due vse of the Sacraments is that Church which enâ—â—yeth the true preaching of the Word and due vse of the Sacraments Most absurde being but Demonstratio eiusdem per Idem iustly exibilated out of all schooles Heare now I will end this first part of this Question of the Protestants Notes of the Church Admonishing the Reader of one thing to wit that whereas S. Austin and other Doctours do say that out of the Scriptures we learne which is the Church This is so to be vnderstood that we are able to proue from the scripture wheare the Church is but this not as from a Note of the Church which is the poynt only heare issuable but only because the scripture teacheth which are the Notes of the Church in teaching of what nature and quality the Church ought to be In this next place we will handle the foresaid question Hypotetically and by supposall only That is we will imagin for the tyme that the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments are the Notes of the Church to vs. To this end we will call to mynd what diuers learned Protestants do teach hearein Caluin thus saith Pastoribus Doctoribus earere nunquam potest Ecclesia c. The Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours to preach the Word and administrâ—r the Sacraments Doctour Fyeld confirmeth the same in these words The ministery of Pastours and teachers is absolutly and essentially necessary to the being of a Church Briefly Doctour Whitakers affirme That the said Notes being present do constitute a Church being absent do subuert it Now all this being granted I confidently auer that the force thereof doth most dangerously recoyle vpon our Aduersaries since it irrephably proueth that the Protestant Church hath bene contrary to the Nature of the true Church at seuerall tymes or rather for seuerall ages together wholy extinct and annihilated Sine during many ages it hath bene vterly voyde depryued of Pastours and Doctourr to preache the Word and administer the Sacraments That the Protestant Church hath during so many reuolutions of yeres absolutely wanted all Pastours and Doctours to preach the word and dispence the Sacraments is euicted in generall from the confessed Inuisibility of the ProtestaÌ„t Church for many Ages concerning which subiect I refer the Reader to the perusing of the Second part of the Conuerted â—ew out of which I will discerpe certaine Confessions of the learned Protestants First then Sebastianu Francus a Protestant heretofore alledged thus wryteth For certayne through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departuâ—e and for these thousand foure hundred yeres the Church hath bene no wheare externall and visible D. Parkins in lyke sort thus confesleth We say that before the dayes of Luther for many hundred yeres an Vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the World In regard of which confessed latency of the Protestant Church Caluin had iust reason as presuming his owne Brethrens preaching of the Word to be true thus to say Factum est vt aliquot secul spura Verbi praedicatio euenuerit c. It was brought to passe that the pure preaching of the Word of God did vanish away for the space of certaine ages The perspicuity of which poynt I meane of the inuisibility of the Protestant Church in former ages will more easely appeare if we insist for Example but in the ryme immediatly before Luthers Apostasy of what tyme it is thus confessed by D. Iewell as taking his doctryne to be the truth The Truth was vnknowne at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Swinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospell Thus we see that the acknowledged Inuisibility of the Protestant Church demonstratiuely prooueth the want of the former Protestant Notes to wit the preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments during all the tyme of the said granted in Visibility And that therefore the Protestants haue much endangered themselfs assigning the said Notes for the Notes of the true Church Now that the setting downe of the forsaid Notes do make for vs Catholicks is no lesse cleare then the former poynt for seing it is granted that Pastours and Doctours must be in the Church till the
end of World for the administration of the Word and Sacraments as not only D. Fulke and other learned Protestants do teach but also is euidently proued in the fore-said mentioned Second Part of the Conuerted Iew And seing an vnterrupted preaching of the Word and administratian of the Sacraments hath euer by the lyke Confession of our learned Aduersaries bene in our Catholicke Church Therefore it may inauoydably be concluded that either our Catholicke Church as euer enioying the former imposed Notes is the only true Church of Christ Or which is most absurd in it selfe and repugnant to infinit places of Holy Scripture that there hath beene for seuerall ages no true Church of Christ at all extant vpon the face of the Earth That the Catholicke Roman Church enioyeth the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments besides the euidency of the truth thereof other wise is confessed by D. Field who speaking of Luther and others acknowledgeth that they receaued from the Church of Rome their Baptisme Christianity Ordination and power of Ordination By Luke Osiander thus wryting Ecclesia que sub Papatufuic c. The Church which was vnder the Papacy when Luther was borne was the Church of Christ for it had the ministery of the Ghospell the sacred â—eriptures Baptisme the Lords supper c. and finally to omit many others by Luther himselfe thus acknowledging Nâ—s fatemaâ— c. We confesse that there is vnder the Papacy true Scrpture true Baptisime the true Sacrament of the Altar the true keres for the remission of Sinnes the true office of preaching true Catechisme Thus Luther And here with I end touching further discourse of this subiect remitting to the euen and impartiall censure the more sober Protestant whether the danger and detriment which fall vpon our Aduersaryes by erecting the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments for Markeâ— of Christs Church granting them for the tyme to be the marks thereof do not by many degrees ouerballance the aduantage which our Aduersaryes by pretending them for Notes do hope to gaine Since as by such their pretence they on the one side labour to reduce the knowing which is the true Church to their owne priuat Iudgments which euery learned and iudicious man at the first sight expoldeth for an impostute so on the other side they are forced euen by most necessary Inferences resulting out of their owne doctrine herein first to grant that the Protestant Church as for many ages by their owne acknowledgments wanting the said Notes being essentiall to the true Church hath for the sayd ages contrary to the Nature of Christs true Church beene vtterly extinct and not in being Secondly that during the sayd centuryes or ages our Catholicke Roman Church through it euer enioying of these Protestant Notes is the true Church or that otherwise there hath beene no true Church of Christ in all that great compasse of yeres Which last point to affirme is most repugnant to God sacred Writ That the Pope and Church of Rome may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometimes dispence with some degrees of Mariadge prohibited in Leuiticus And that in so dispensing the Law of Nature which euer bindeth is not violated or transgressed by them THE explanation of thâ— Question taketh it source from this one Proposition To wit All the preceps which are deliuered in Leuiticus touching the degrees prohibited in mariadge do not bind Christians by deuyne law to obserue them Which proposition or sentence being once confirmed and fortifyed it then followeth that the Church of Christ and the Head thereof may vpon iust and most vrgent occasion dispense without any sinne with some degrees prohibited in Leuâ—â—icus For the better vnfoulding and vnderstanding of this one proposition we are first to conceaue that both the Catholicks and Protestants do teach That the precepts of Leuiticus do not oblige Christians as they are properly Leniticall that is as they are Positiue and Iudicâ—all but only as they are Naturall that is as they are prohibited by the law of Nature Now the Catholicks do further teach that as some preceps in Leuiticus are Naturall so some other preceps are not naturall but meerely iudiciall and therefore may be dispensed with by Christ his Church as the Councell of Trent affirmeth Whereas our Aduersaryes mantayne that all the precepts of Leuiticus are Naturall and therefore â—ich of them indispensable by the Church Now here we are to remember that those are Naturall precepts which are knowne for such only by the light of nature without any discourse or at least which are knowne for such by a most small discourse of Reason And these precepts are the same among all Men in all nations and tymes both for the knowledge of them and for the rectitude and iustnes of them Now such precepts as for the knowing of theÌ„ do neede supernaturall light are called Diuina positiua diuine Positions And those other Precepts which receaue their establishment by humane discourse from the Prince or Magistrate are styled Humana humana Constitutions and these are not the same among all men and in all nations Now then this iustly presupposed The first proposition to wit That all the Precepts deliuered in Leuiticus touching the degrees prohibited in Mariadge do not bynd Christians by diuine Law to obserue them Is proued First from the consideration of the different punishments appointed in the twentith of Leuiticus against those who transgresse in Maâ—iadge the different degrees prohibited in the eighteenth of Leuiticus Thus for example we there fynd that Mariadge contracted in the first degree of Affinity in the right line God punisheth with death and compareth it with adultery and sodomy Which are manifestly against the Law of Nature The same punishment of death is there apointed for such as marye in the first degree of Consanguinity in a collaterall line as when the Brother maryeth the Sister But now in the second degree of consanguinity in the collaterall line as when the nephew maryeth his Fathers sister or the Mothers sister this Mariadge is punished with a lesse and more gentill punishment In like sort mariadge in the first degree of Affinity in the collaterall line as when one maryeth the wife of his brother being dead and in the second degree to wit when the nephew maryeth the wife of his vncle is not punished with death of the parties so contracted but only with priuation of children That is that the children begotten in such a mariadge should not be asâ—rybed or reputed the childreÌ„ of their said patents Now this punishment euidently showeth that these mariadges are not prohibited by the Law of Nature since the light of Naturall Reason doth not dictate to all Men that the former chastisement is a iust punishment of the foresayd kind of mariadge Secondly the former proposition or sentence is thus prooued If all the precepts of Leuiticus touching the degrees of mariadge were ordayned by the
Creatour of all flesh did suffer in flesh For our Sauiour being at his last suffer did then first institute it when â—e deliuered to his Apostles his owne body and bloud saying This is my body This is my Bloud c. With reference to which institution the Apostle calleth the table vpon which this sacrifice is made _____ to wit an Altar being deriued of the verb. _____ signifying Sacrifice But let vs see in what dialect Antiquity speaketh hereof Some few places among infinit I will heare select first then we find S Austin thus to say Quid gratius osserriaâ—t sâ—scipi possit quam câ—râ— sacrificij nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri What can be offered vp or accepted more thankfully then the flesh of our sacrifiâ— being made the body of our Priest Chrysostome thus wryteth Per id tempus Angeli Sacerdoti assident c. At that tyme the Angells draw neare vnto the Pryest and the whole order of the heauenly Powers causeth greate voyces and the place neare vnto the Alâ—â—r is full of qâ—ears of Angells in illius honorem qui inâ—molatur by reason of the honour of hym who is theare 〈…〉 d or offered vp which thing we may fully beleiue vel extanto illi sacrificio quod iunc peragitur in regard of so great a sacrifice then performed Gregory Nyssene Dominus praeoccupans impetum iudeorum c. Our Lord preuenting the violence of the Iewes being both Priest and Lambe made hymselfe a sacrifice But thou demandest of me when this did happen Euen then when he gaue to his disciples his body to eate and his bloud to drink Optatus Miliuitanus thus discourseth Quid est tam sacrilegum quam altaria â—ei in quibus aliquando nos obtulistis frangere radre 〈…〉 e in quïbus vot a Populi membra Christi partata sâ—ni c What is so sacrilegious as to breake or scrape or to remoue and take away the Altâ—â—s of God vpon which your selfs somtymes haue offered in the which the vowes of the People and the members of Christ are borne And further the said Father Quid est altari nisi sides corporis sanguints Christi What is the Altar but the seate of the body and bloud of Christ S. Ambrose Etsi nunc Christus non videatur offerre ipse tamen â—ffertur in terris cum corpus eius offertur And againe Cum Sacrisicamus Christus est presens Christus immolatur When we do sacrifize Christ is present Christ is sacrifized or immolated Ephrem Quid scrutaris inscrutabilia c Why dosâ— thou search into things not to be searched after c. Be thou faythfull and innocent and participate thou of the immaculate body of thy Lord with a most full fayth being assured that thou dost eate the whole Lambe Cyprian Caena disposita inter Sacramentales epuâ—as c. The supper being prepared the auncient and new Institutions did meete together among the Sacramentall 〈◊〉 eats And the Lambe which auncient Tradition did set vpon the table being consâ—med the Maister doth giue to his Disciples an inconsumption meate Tertulian and Dionisius make frequent mention of Altars and consequently of Sacrifice To conclude this passage as auoyding prolexity Eyppolitus Martyr introduceth Christ speaking to Bishops and Pryests in these words Venite Pontifices Sacerdotes qui praeciosum corpus sanguinem meum quoâ—die immolastis Come hither youâ— hâ—â—fe Pryests and other Pryests who haue dayly immoluted and offered vp my precious body and bloud Now M. Vice Chancelour in regard of the perspicâ—ity of thes sentences of the former Fathers and of diuers others such authorityes of the said and other â—athers of the Primatiue Church heare through br 〈…〉 y preteâ—nitted It is the lesse wonder that your owne learned Protestants do ingenuously confesse the truth of those Fathers iudgments hearin For to omit that the Centurists do particularly charge S. Ambrose with this very phraze Massam 〈…〉 ere vsed by vs Pryests at this very day do wee not fine Calumn himselfe thus to acknoledge of them in generall Veteres illos video c. I do see that those auncient Fathers did wrest the memory of the Lords supper otherwyse then was agreeing to the institution of the Lord. Since the Fathers supper did beare the show and resemblance of a renewed Oblation c they imitating more nearely the 〈◊〉 maner of sacrificing then either Christ did ordayne or the nature of the Gospell would suffer And hereupon it is that Caluin in an other place thus chargeth the Fathers The Fathers did adulterate the supper of the Lord by adding of Sacrifice vnto it Neither can theese words of Caluin be restrayned to those Fathers only who liued either in the midest or towards the end of the Primatiue Church First because they are deliuered without exception of the Fathers in generall Secondly by reason that other learned Protestants do charge the Fathers some of them liuing immediatly after the Apostles others 〈…〉 g euen in the dayes of the Apostles with the said doctrine of sacrifice Thus consorting hearto we find Sebastianus Francus an eminent Protestant to vse theese words Statim post Apostolos omnia inuersa sunt c. Presently after the Apostles departure all things were inuerted c. Et caena Domini in sacrificium transfâ—rmata est and the supper of the Lord was changed into a sacrifice But Hospinian that famous Protestant useth higher in tyme thus confessing I am tum primo illo seculo viuentibus adhuc Apostolts c. Even in the very first age the Apostles yet liuing the deuill labored to seduce Men more about this Sacrament meaning touching the â—athers supposed adding of sacrifice to the Sacrament of the Eucharist Then about Baptisme withdrawing Men from the first former thereof Thus farre of the Fathers cleare sentences and of the learned Protestants confessing no lesse touching the doctrine of Sacrifice VICEC-HANCELOVR It lâ—tle preiudizeth vs Michaas who professe the Ghospell though the Fathers did teach the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse For seing it is granted both by vs and you Papists that diuers Fathers erred in other paticular poynts why might they not alyke erre in the doctrine of the Sacrifice And seing we are not obliged to embrace their other acknowledged Errours why should we be forced to entertaine this their errour MICHAEAS O M. Vice-Chancelour the difference is great and subiect euen to a vulgar iudgment For we grant with you that some particular Fathers did e 〈…〉 certaine poynts yet were those their errours presently condemned and written against by other Ortodoxall Fathers Thus for exemple did Austin Ierome and Epiphanius wryte against Origen teaching that the Deuills were at the last day to be saued against Tertullian denying second Mariadges against Cyprian mantayning Rebaptization Now heare wee grant that such particular Fathers might and did
Sacerdotal 〈…〉 h 〈…〉 tye of remitting of sinns in the Sacrament of Confession and of celebrating the most reuerend and incruent Sacrifice of the Masse subiects against which many Protestants so bitterly 〈…〉 both with tongue and penne Now if Gods 〈◊〉 Wâ—â—t partly deliuered in a propheticall spirit and partly by our Sauiours 〈◊〉 and Apostles touching the former poynts Yf the vninterrupted practize of Gods Church answearable to those diuine Oracles Yf the learned Monuments of the Primatiue Fathers in the Churches Infancy contesting or rather deposing the same Yf the Ecclesiasticall Historyes recording the euenâ—s sorting to all the former proâ—ffs and authorityes Finally if your owne Brethrens free Confessions in their wrytings to their owne irreperable preiudice warranting the same cannot induce many of you to beleiue the truth of the Articles aboue discussed then can I but dispaire of your bettering by perusing the former disputes and can but coÌ„miserate your irremediable states in the words of the Prophet spoken to Israell Insanabilis â—ract 〈…〉 a pessima pâ—â—ga tua but if you be such as I haue fiâ—ured out to my selfe Men professing Candor and ingenuitie thirsting after your owne Saluation desirous to embrace the Truth once found out and chorninâ— any lonâ—er to liue and implicit and blynd assent without further 〈◊〉 and search to your grand Maysters Theorems then I am in good hope that these my Labours may wunne some ground vpon your iudgments and that you will make good in yourself that senteÌ„ce of our Lord and Sauiour Iustificata est sapientia a fil 〈…〉 suis I will speake playnly vnto you because I affect you in true Christian Charity and pittie it is that such-transcendent Spirits should for euer perish You are created to enjoy Eternitye Spurne there at those temporary illaqueations whearwith the soule i accustomed to be detayned from her cheifest Good You are through the force of Christs Passion 〈…〉 borne Coheyâ—es to the Kinâ—dome of God Why then will you longer seede with the Prodicall Sonne vpon the husks of wordly deliâ—hts and pleasures say eich of you rather with an auncient Father Mihi â—amulo Create is murd 〈…〉 us si non tamen Deus mundi Et igo Mundo non tamen Deo mundi Pray with in â—â—slant and feruerous eiaculations of spirit by which meanes he will no dowbt of new become present to you who at all tymes is present that his Diuine Maiesty would vouchsafe to remoue from your eyes as he did from the corporal eyes of the Apostle the scales of partiality and preiudice in matters of fayth the most dangerous rocke of the soules eternall naufrage Do not still perseuer in vp â—raidinâ— the Catholicks with Superstition Idolatrie Antichristianisme relyinge on humane inuentions and disualewing of the most precious sufferings of our 〈◊〉 no. These are but our Aduersaryes impostures and Calumnyes forged to ensware the ignorant For we all most willingly acknowledg that the bloudy wounds of a sinfull soule are cured only by the bloudy passaues of Christ his Passion thus we teach and beleiue that bloud heare stancheth bloud and Death through ouerthrow of death raise Men from death Mors â—ortua tunc est in ligno quando mortua vita fuit But to returne more particularly to the former Dialogues I do probably preâ—age that perhaps some one or other of your learned Professours will vndertake to answeare theese my Wrytings Therefore let me premonish that man cheifly of three Things First that whereas theare are in the three former discourses almost a thousand Testimonies of all sorts of authorities produced some immediatly and others by necessary inferrence prouing the Catholicks Poynts aboue treated of That therefore he would not forbearing in policy to answeare the authorities flee a new to the state of the question being allready acknowledged on all sides and to other extrauagancyes of discours and all to with draw by such subtill transitions his Reader from the poynt issuable which is whether the former Conâ—rouerâ—ed Questions do receaue their full prousse from my alledged testimonies or no 〈◊〉 Secondly that whereas the greatest part of the aboue alledged authorities are taken from the protestants Confessions and acknowledgments they mainly thearby wounding their owne Religion That the Replyar for the auoyding of the force of their authorities would not seeke to oppose other Protestants denying that which they confesse since this Kynd of euadingâ—s most weake as is intimated allready in the second Dialogue in that the Protestants alledged by me are the most remarkable Protestants that euer did wryte and do confesse to their owne preiudice and against the 〈◊〉 which they neuer would do but that the euidency of the Truth enforceth them thear to Whereas thus others which perhaps the Replyar may pro 〈…〉 ce are Men of meaner ranke and speake in their owne behalfe and therefore as compacted of impudency and boldnes their tonâ—ues and pe 〈…〉 ns stand at all tymes ready charged to speake and wryte by affirming of chings thou 〈…〉 neuer so false for the supporting of their owne Cause Thirdly and lastly that in answearing to the testimonyes and Confessious he would take them in order as they lye and not omit any as otherwyse hoping that is regard of the â—â—ltitude of the testimonyes the sluggish yauning Reader would easely swalow such ouersights of Omisions For heare I aduertize the Replyar a forehand That presently vpon the first comming out of his Answeare I will make a short Cathalogue of all the testimonyes and Confessions omitted by hym if any such he shewing to what end the sayd Testimonyes were particularly produced And will cause this Cathalogue within few dayes after atleast few weeks for I will not stay for months to be printed and d 〈…〉 for the present s 〈…〉 of the Readers thirst till further oportunity be geuen for confuting of his answeare at large And thus I dowbt not but the Sunne of the Replyars same end worth which may seeme perhaps so gloriously to ryse at the first appearance of his most learned answeare forsooth within th 〈…〉 tyme after if any of the former premonished â—leiâ—hts and collusions be vsed thearein wil be forced to set in a Cloud of his owne disgrace and disreputation Neither let that Man think that the s 〈…〉 of his Booke with greeke sentences or the hayling in of certaine mysapplyed and g 〈…〉 beaded Apotheges of some one or other old and outworne Philosophâ—â— an Idiome peculiar to most Protestant Wryters must carye the maâ—ter But it must be a 〈…〉 and sincere coaâ—s of answearing which at this tyme can satisfy But now Cel 〈…〉 Academicks taking my last leaue of you all I will heare cease but will neuer cease to power out my dayly prayers to the most Blessed and vâ—deuided for your encrease of all vertues but particularly for true and orthodoxall fayth that â—o you being gratefull in the siâ—ht of the three diuine Persons God the Father would vouchsafe
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to