Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	church_n	lord_n	word_n	4,134	5	3.9920	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33596	An ansvver to a book set forth by Sir Edward Peyton, knight and baronet carrying this title A discourse concerning the fitnesse of the posture necessary to be used in taking the bread and wine at the Sacrament / by Rodger Cocks ...	Cocks, Roger, fl. 1630-1642.	1642 (1642)	Wing C4874; ESTC R13366	12,324	26

gesture And here you fall into an error for you doe not stand to your tackling but goe from Standing to Sitting Nay you use the demonstrative this before you mention Sitting at all For the confirmation of that which you would prove you cite many Texts of Scripture among which some are meerly impertinent as belonging nothing to the Discourse in hand because they imply an imitation not in Ceremoniall but Morall duties Such are Ephes. 5. 1. 1 Cor. 11. 1. 1 Tim. 16. you meane I conceive 1 Tim. 1. 16. 2 Thes. 3. 7. The other conduce not rightly to your purpose though they seeme to come nearer For however you make much adoe with the Greek Text and Latine Translation where by the way you have occubuit for accubuit which I am willing to passe by because but a literall error and conclude that the posture used was Sitting howbeit no direct sitting neither but such an one as did encline to leaning yet I may say all this will not help you a jot For we have two Bucklers to oppose against this sharp of yours as you call it the one that all this proves nothing but that our Saviour Christ and his Apostles sate at the celebration of the Passeover not at the institution of the Sacrament Nor can you by direct and evident Text of Scripture urge it further as some of the learned have judiciously observed however others for want of a due consideration have given too much way to your assertion And surely if I among these should doe so too yet it would fare with you but as with him qui suo se jugulat gladio who striking fiercely at his adversary wounds yea kils his owne cause Your pretence is to plead for Standing at the Communion nay your offence was howbeit Scandalum acceptum non datum because you might not receive it in that posture and now you plead for sitting nay affirme it is unlawfull to use other concluding it to be not indifferent but necessary Risum teneatis amici Surely when you wrote this Discourse you were either forgetfull of your former Position or irresolute in your present opinion So that if one Proverb will not hit you You are a man sitting duabus sellis yet another may fit you Aliud stans aliud sedens judicas and thus you quite overthrow what you seeke to establish for if sitting onely be necessary I do not see how you can stand more for standing then we for kneeling Your bringing in of Calvin makes nothing to the purpose he writes against adoring the Host in the Sacrament and what is that to our kneeling at the Communion You might as well say The Papists kneel to Images and worship them therefore we may not kneele to worship God You presse further the sayings of Bullinger and Keckerman who if you cite them rightly take that for granted which remaines to be proved namely that Sitting was the posture used at the Sacramentall Supper Indeed I should side with Chemnitius in his opinion that the reverence of the Sacrament is to be taken from the Word of God if there were any prescript forme or certaine direction to be found in it As for that which you quote out of the Centuries namely that Kneeling was never used in three hundred yeares after Christ were it true which I shall hardly be induced to beleeve without more pregnant testimony yet it is not of sufficient force to infringe the lawfull use of this Ceremonie no not though you could directly prove the Apostles did receive sitting For against this we lift up our second buckler of defence which I conceive will be able to ward off the blow that you would give us and that is this In circumstantiall things which are indifferent there is no absolute tye of necessity that we should follow our Saviour Christ and his Apostles much lesse the practise of the Primitive Church if there were any such necessity why doe you not plead as well against the change of time and place as that of gesture Seeing you cannot be ignorant that what the Apostles took in the evening we take in the morning what they received in a chamber we receive in a Church If the Church had power to alter these why should it not have as much to doe the other The instances which you produce for standing were they to the purpose as they are not would confirme as much For if the Church in those times had power to varie from the order of sitting and make use of standing in the place of it why had not the Church afterward as much power to change that standing into kneeling But the truth is the words of Tertullian as S. Ierome f notes have no reference to the Sacrament but to the Resurrection We stand then saith the Father and it is not at the Lords Supper but every Lords day because it is Tempus laetitiae quo nec genua flectuntur nec curvamur sed cum Domino ad coelorum alta sustollimur A time of joy in which we neither bow nor bend our knees but are with the Lord lifted up as it were to the highest heavens So S. Augustine Propter hoc jejunia relaxantur orantes stamus quod est signum resurrectionis g For this we give over fasting and pray standing which is a signe of the Resurrection The Canon of the Nicene Councel is grounded meerly on the same reason and so is also that which you cite out of S. Basil Howbeit did all these make to your purpose they would yet but make good what I said before that the change of things indifferent is in the power of the Church and if so why should not that power be obeyed now as well as in former Ages S. Augustine is firme for it That is saith he to be accounted indifferent and to be observed in respect of the society of those among whom we live Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bonos mores injungitur h which being enjoyned makes neither against faith nor good manners This truth the Reformed Churches in the Low-Countries doe acknowledge i and Beza likewise in his 24. Epist. Indeed if men should be suffered to doe what they list in this case what would become of that which the Apostle requires k Decencie and Order Surely it would breed in the Church horribilem {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} saith Paraeus l a horrible confusion And from this confusion would arise no small seeds of contention saith Calvin in his Institut m I have cited these because I conceive this testimony to be of more validity with you then that of the Fathers But you goe about to make kneeling no matter of indifferencie because it tends as you say to Idolatry What conformation hath kneeling say you unlesse to conforme us to Transubstantiation Since you doe not know I will tell you It serves to conforme you to Reverence to Obedience to Order and I hope

AN ANSWER TO A BOOK Set forth By Sir EDWARD PEYTON KNIGHT and BARONET Carrying this Title A Discourse concerning the fitnesse of the Posture necessary to be used in taking the Bread and Wine at the SACRAMENT BY ROGER COCKS Preacher of Gods Word Quàm diu per hanc lineam serram reciprocabimus habentes observationem inveteratam quae praeveniendo statum fecit Hanc si nulla Scriptura determinavit certè consuetudo corroboravit Tertul. de Coron Militis Cap. 3. Ad quam fortè Ecclesiam veneris eius morem serva si cuiquam non vis esse scandalo nec quenquam tibi Sententia Ambros. in Aug. ut ipse refert Epist. 118. Cap. 2. LONDON Printed for Nath. Butter 1642. Scribimus indocti doctique PAmphlets like wild geese fly up and downe in flocks about the Countrey Never was more writing or lesse matter That of the Preacher if ever it did reflect on any may fitly suit with our times There is no end of making many books a For in many in most there is no end indeed Nay there is neither beginning nor ending that is neither head nor foot as it is in the Proverb I will not absolutely rank yours in the number of these yet I conceive and many I presume will be of my opinion you should have shewne more wisdome if you had taken lesse paines and spared your Discourse For though I commend your moderation in not being affected with the Epidemicall disease of the times Railing yet I cannot approve your discretion in acting that upon the publique stage of Printing which might have passed better by private intercourse of writing I was once about to have answered your Discourse with nothing but silence if so be that might have been reputed an Answer and to this the perswasion of some friends had almost induced me as well because the sleighting of some wrong is the best way to overcome them as because it is not an easie matrer for a Practicall Divine on the sudden to turne Polemicall But I was diverted from these to my thinking by stronger considerations As first the giving of occasion unto the adverse side to insult and triumph and next to ours the scandall of deserting my selfe and which is more the publique cause of the Church at which it is plain you strike though through the sides of me an unworthy member of it Over-swaid by these I thought it better to shew my selfe is the times now are a foole in print among the rest then that the Truth should suffer by my default or that your pretending to invincible unanswerable arguments should conduce to the offending of others Before I enter upon your Book I cannot passe by the Title as a man that is to survey some new building ere he enter the house will cast his eye upon the Portal Now this me thinks is not given with that advisednesse of judgement that should have been for you call it A Discourse concerning the fitnesse of the posture necessary to be used in taking the Bread and Wine at the Sacrament Had you left out necessary it would have been a great deale better for you change a matter of indifferencie into a matter of necessity You cannot or at least writing of that subject ought not to be ignorant that Ceremonies in their owne nature are but {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} indifferent things your postures therefore being not yet enjoyned by authority cannot be necessary But a rough outside may have a smooth inside and a jewell is not alwayes knowne by the case or casket that doth enclose it I will therefore come to the discourse it selfe And this is composed in the forme of a Letter I must therefore shape my Answer accordingly onely I will adde a Superscription lest I should not seeme to deale with a man of your fashion as I ought to doe To Sir EDWARD PEYTON Knight and Baronet But I pray give me leave to close it up with that wish of Philip a King of Macedon to Menecrates an over-weening Physitian Health of mind THe reason that induceth me to this is because the elapsed time you speak of hath brought forth the foule issue of a collapsed disposition which as you would seeme to pretend my rudenesse hath made abortive and caused it to come into the world before the time But the truth is for so much I have heard you affirme your selfe it was conceived many yeares before though perhaps not altogether in the same shape it is produced Who advisedly considering this will not argue you of much weaknesse for being grounded in your opinion why did you so often before take the Sacrament kneeling without question or scruple if it were a matter against conscience so to doe If it were not why doe you now refuse it I refer my selfe to the indifferent Reader if in this you doe not render your selfe suspected to side more with the times then with the truth But to proceed In the first place though an easie apprehension may conceive it an impertinent introduction you taxe my defect of manners Indeed I was never bred in the schoole of complements and may therefore haply commit a solecisme against ceremonious forme but here I presume I may justly acquit my selfe The irreverence was on your part the affront on mine I did but my duty which you answered with indignity and for my beseeching returned a threatning As for the satisfaction which you would seeme to have desired you know well that I was not chiefe in the place but as you acknowledge me your self subordinate Curate Therefore you should rather have sought it at his hands who was chiefe especially being there resident then at mine and I make no doubt he would upon the least intimation of this desire from you so well I know his willingnesse and sufficiencie have given you if any thing could have done it satisfaction Howbeit had you requested as much of me for it hath never been my custome to obtrude my labours upon another especially where I had just cause to suspect the party possest with a prejudicate opinion and so the matter in all likelyhood to meete with derision instead of acceptation I should as far as my meane ability and my many occasions and interruptions would have given me leave have done what I could Let the discreet Reader now judge whether there were more want of manners in me for not writing or of civility in you for taxing me in this kind Next you affirme that being to receive the Sacrament you did stand with just ground and therefore I should not have denyed it unto you in that posture I answer you are no Pythagoras or if you were I am none of your Disciples to be satisfied with an Ipse dixit Who of sound judgment will not think that I was tyed in duty to comply rather with publique authority then with your private singular irregular opinion And whereas you say I ought not to urge an imposed kneeling though backt by