and his pure service as those of the ten Tribes that went from Israel to Judah had other Priests and Ministers of the Law and service of God and a pure way of serving of God onely that of circumcision they would continue that though according to his conceit in the case of Baptisme it came from the two Calves What would he have said or thought of it in this case I would faine know If they did well it is good for us to imitate them in a like case 2. I say as before more fully I have shewed that this Church and Ordinances are but new in regard of purity the other being corrupt so all this he calleth new is not like their new raising of the Church and Ordinances as if those before had lost their being and were not at all In this their case which he so excepteth against there is expresse warrant 2 Thes 2. 15. keep the Ordinances as they were delivered unto you that is purely 3. Baptized persons in the case of their returne from idollwayes and Apostacie to the pure service of God are to look after Baptisme no otherwise then circumcised Jewes did in the like case when they returned unto the Lord Ezek. 44. 9. They were not to circumcise themselves or be circumcised again yet the Heather comming along with them they must be circumcised In like manner Gods people comming out of Babylon according to the call of God Rev. 18. 4. are not required to be again baptized though the Jewes and other Heathen that imbrace the faith of Christ are required to doe it which I would wish I. S. and those of his way to consider of 4. For the continuation of the Church and Baptisme the outward qualification of the matter the Scriptures fully give witnesse unto as before is shewed so as is no need of beginning them a new in any sense unlesse of purity but other Ordinances are by negligence laid by and out of use something in the room of them and so are by the Church to be restored to their places when the Church is purged and made pure Lastly for this of Baptisme comming through the hands of Pope Jone and from the man of sin It is a false and scandalous reproach it cometh no more through the hands of Pope Jone and the man of sin then the holy Scriptures did or then Circumcision did through the hands of the two Galves of old J. S. may be ashamed so to reproch Gods holy Ordinance by his good pleasure preserved to this day I would wish him to call to mind his complaint story before And now in regard he is up with Pope Ione again to disgrace the truth and those that stand for it whereby to make persons afraid and do they know not what which after they undo again and so Gal. 2. 18. make themselves every way trespassers by destroying what they before built I will note some particulars wherein those of his way shake hands with Pope Ioane and the man of sin and leave the Reader to judge who may be most justly taxed for affinity with Pope Jone the reformed or separated Churches or those of the new way of Baptisme First those of that way of Baptisme hold generall or universall redemption with the man of sin and Pope Jone 2. Free-will 3. Falling from grace 4. Conditionall Election that men may be saved if they will themselves 5. They hold an universall Church and generall ministery with power universall 6. That Antichrist is not yet come and shall be a particular man and shall continue but three years c. 7. They hold with Pope Jone and accordingly censure all the reformed and separated Churches for meer Schismaticks 8. They hold with Pope Jone dipping in Baptisme I do not say that J. S. or all of that way hold all these particulars but this I am sure that all these are held by persons in that way in practice they also shake hands for as the man of sin hath made a Church so they also have made a Church onely the man of sin and Pope Jone have succeeded better in their work for they have made a Church of a large structure whereas theirs is yet but a little Terret of the like nature 2. As Pope Joane hath sent out her messengers to preach and baptize namely the Friers and others the Moors and Indians so in like manner these send out their messengers to preach and baptize also 3. As Pope Jone and the man of sin give authority to their instruments and ministers to act things without the cognizance of the Scriptures so in like kinde do they namely authorizing an unbaptized person to baptize others In this and one thing more they exceed in irrationalnesse Pope Ione to wit of giving mission to unbaptized persons to baptize 2. In Baptizing them that were before baptized I will forbear to adde other particulars Now let them shew if they can any such doctrines held or courses taken by the separated or rightly reformed Churches in way of affinity with Pope Jone and the man of sin I say no more but leave the Reader to judge In the end of this Sexion he uttereth divers high Notions so undigested unsound and contradictorie as a man that should weigh them could not but wonder First he saith that we are to know that the truth depends not upon Churches nor any mortall creature but onely upon the immortall God who by his Word and Spirit reveals the same when and to whom he pleases This is the first of his wonderfull Notions which we are to know that the truth of Ordinances and right serving God of which is our question depends not upon Churches Where then is J. S. his orderly way he proposed according to God by the Church and her assignement of one or two of her members to begin Baptisme being lost c. Secondly This that he would have us to know is directly contrary to that which God teacheth us to know in his Word 1 Tim. 3. 15. The Church of the living God God himself saith is the pillar and ground of truth that is of Religion and divine Ordinances as we said before Thirdly If I. S. say he do not mean truth of Ordinances truly he is then beside the matter in hand deceiving and being deceived Fourthly If he mean as in the former is specied with whom then doth he contend Do not all confesse the truth as Doctrinall to have God for the Authour of it and to depend on him What high words doth he here use to amaze the Reader as The truth depends not upon any mortall man Who ever held so But upon the Immortall God Who ever held otherwise But this immortall God reveales the same by his Word and Spirit What doth God reveal new Ordinances of Religion by his Word and Spirit Sure this is some dark non-sense He questionlesse meaneth some other thing What Revelation he herein intendeth is not hard to guesse however he is beside the
A DEFENCE OF THE LAVVFVLNESSE OF Baptizing Infants As also of the present Baptisme as it hath continued in the severall ages of the world from John Baptist the first beginner thereof In way of Answer to something written by IOHN SPILSBERIE against the same 1 Thes 5. 12. Try all things hold fast that which is good Psal 105. 8. He hath remembred his Covenant for ever the word which he commanded to a thousand generations Deut. 30. 6. And the Lord thy God will circumcize thy heart and the heart of thy seed c. LONDON Printed by M. Bell for Benjamin Allen and are to be sold at his shop in Popes head Alley at the signe of the Crowne 1645. To the Reader THe holy Scriptures do inform us of two severall persecutions raised by Satan against that innocent part of the Church to wit Infants beside the persecutions which inclusively they at severall times have suffered with the rest of the Church The first was by Pharaoh that sore oppressour of Israel that held them in such cruell bondage The second was by bloody Herod Our Lord himselfe in this latter was personally concerned he then being an Infant and Rachels Infants suffering for him In both which it is considerable the time when In the first it was when the Israelites were neere deliverance from Egypts bondage The second was when the Deliverer was come to Sion and deliverance it was neere at hand In like kinde now in this last age now God is delivering of his Church from the long and sore bondage of spirituall Babylon called Sodom and Egypt he returning to her as in the dayes of old There is even now also a sore persecution against this innocent part of the Church which is so much the more sad and grievous in these three respects First in that it is raised and carried on by such as pretend to be friends and lovers of Sion the Church of God if it were by open and professed enemies it were more easie to be borne Secondly in that they pretend to the glory of God this their persecuting and casting out a part of his heritage as did of old those that cast out their brethren and said Let the Lord be glorified Esay 66. by which meanes many are deceived Thirdly in that their opposition is against them in a spirituall regard it being against their relation to God to his Church to his gracious Covenant or Covenant of grace from all which they seclude them driving them out of Gods heritage that they may goe serve other gods spoiling them of all their externall rights and priviledges and so leaving them among the dead to wit in trespasses and sinnes Pharaoh endeavoured to destroy and Herod killed a part of this part of the Church But these in a spirituall sense have destroyed all this part of the Church not one left alive in way of relation to God or interessed externally in Jesus Christ But this hard and injurious dealing Jehovah that is mighty and Jesus Christ that is gracious who manifested much tender respect unto these will plead their cause and right their wrong against such as rise up against them as he did of old for he taketh it as done against himselfe Courteous Reader in the behalfe of these innocent Saints to whom the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is most free they having nothing to bring unto him no not so much as good words I doe make defence in their cause as touching their right in the Covenant of grace and part in the Church of God to whom they having relation as to a father and are therein blessed as such are whose God is the Lord. Now I have thought good to offer it to thy view in regard that a great part of what I have said for them and against their opposers runneth in another line something different from what is usually pleaded in their behalfe that it might be considered of together with an answer to some things controvertable in that way about the raising of Baptisme pretended to be lost but indeed continued by the power of God under the defilements of Antichrist The exceptions against the said continuance I have made answer unto as also some other particulars handled all which I have referred to thy judgement forbearing such confident expressions of proofe and full proofe as is to be found not in a few of this way and others also that in the judgement of the Reader have made proofe of nothing at all Indeed such confident praising of a mans own work is a certaine signe of the weaknesse of it Use thy rightfull liberty good Reader in the consideration of what is said and be impartiall seeing thou art free Now for my particular Opponent I professe as much respect and tender of love to him as to any of that way and therefore desire that nothing may be misconstrued in regard of the manner of any proceed nor of any phrases wherein I intend no hurt but to quicken the Reader and to make the matter more plausible to some that are dull If any aske why I answer only a part and not the whole book published by my opposite I answer first that a great part of it was an answer to some others to whom I leave it to make reply if they please Secondly in regard that some other part of the Booke is in way of opposall of their opinion that hold not alike the truth of the Church and Baptisme in the defection but hold the truth of Baptisme only I might doe them wrong for want of ability to manage and make out the matter therefore I have forborn and left it to themselves if they please to make defence In regard some part of this Contest is of personall Reformation and proceed from corrupt wayes to serve God purely the maine worke of this present age I shall take the boldnesse to forewarne in love and sobriety all persons to take heed to their setting out at the first for want whereof this and other errours have been fallen into by not a few A person missing his way at the first setting out the further he goeth the further out and to seeke even so it is in this one errour begetteth another and another and there is no end till men sit down in darknesse That person that cast away the truth of his relation to God to Christ externally because of defilements will never be able to make out his relation in a way of purity Other foundation can none lay then that which is laid already no not ingard of outward Religion and the service of God It is safest keeping to this lest men make their ease like those that comming from captivity sought their discent and could not finde it and so might not be admitted to speciall Ordinances but by Vrim c. Esra 2. 62. 63. Their labour is to be pitied that know not the way to the City how shall such be ever stayed in their course or setled in their way
very dark and smoakie this hee will doe by shewing the manner of the aforesaid Constitution in the causes of it How will he doe it in pag. 40. by saying over again what he had said again and again before namely that the Scriptures remaining in the place of the Apostles for us to have recourse unto and serve as the mouth of Christ Alas this is but a poore clearing for this is onely in a directive way as before I noted And what then The Scriptures being so truly nothing at all Yes saith he as the Apostles did before the Scriptures were written To which I say there were Scriptures before the Apostles to which the Apostles had an eye and regard and directed others to doe the like The holy Apostles they acted Ordinances of Religion preaching breaking bread and baptizing The Scripture acts nothing neither can they surely Act. 2. 42. this is a poore clearing we will minde the Scriptures hee here quoteth Matth. 28. 20. 2 Pet. 19. 20 21. Rom. 10. 6 7 8. In answer I will not tire my selfe and the Reader certainly no man can imagine any thing more then direction from that full and perfect rule of the Scriptures as gatherable from those places of Scripture which as before I said none deny let him but call to mind what he said of an orderly way which God requireth and how that is as he conceiveth by the Church and then let him tell mee if hee can to what purpose these Scriptures are or that which followeth that as the Lords people conferred with the Prophets and Apostles about their great affaires so have the Lords people now Moses and the Prophets Christ and his Apostles in their writings as Luk. 16. 29. And what then truly nothing it is but for direction as before nor yet that which further followeth in this clearing matter of the constituting causes which are saith he with the spirit of life in them as effectuall as their personall presence if not more Answ Stay a while the matter is sure otherwise for this effectuallnesse if it were granted is but directive But it is not wholly granted for that the Apostles were men inspired and sent of God to declare his will they were a saving meanes of good to men and God in his good pleasure as a double mercy gave his Word and sent his Apostles and Prophets sure I take it it must needs follow that if the Scriptures were as effectuall without the Apostles and rather more then with them then God gave the Apostles in vaine and the Churches were great losers by their personall presence but the truth is otherwise as is most manifest The Scripture with the Spirit of life in them act nothing but onely direct and furnish men how to act according to the will of God in an orderly way according to what hee holdeth For proofe of what before he affirmed of the effectualnesse of the Scripture he quoteth Joh. 6. 62. 2 Pet. 1. 18 19. Revel 11. 3 5 11. Answ That in John speaketh of Christ ascending where he was before how this should prove any thing is beyond my thoughts I will say nothing but leave the Reader to judge of it That place of Peter is of the sure direction of the Word in dark and our doing well to take heed to it That in the Revelation is of the two witnesses a thing too mysterious to be a proofe in this case I suppose J. S. will not hold himselfe to be one of those witnesses nor he with others of his way to be both those witnesses there spoken of I will say no more but leave the Reader to judge whether these Scriptures doe prove that the holy Scriptures with the Spirit of life in them as he is pleased to say are in stead of the Apostles personally sent of God with power to act ordinances or whether they in the case of the Ordinances dispensing in an orderly way are as much or more effectuall then the Apostles personally that were sent of Christ for that end who did not send the Scriptures as in the case of the Eunuch but Philip and in the case of Cornelius Peter as in those and the like instances may be seen He proceedeth and in full concluding of this matter saith and thus all succession what phrase have we here from the beginning came to Christ Of what speakes hee now of Ordinances I had thought all Ordinances had ever proceeded from him he being ever the Lord of the Church and sure he meaneth the Ordinances namely those ordained of old under Abraham and Moses and the Prophets these lasted continued to the coming of Christ into the world the substance indeed of those shadows so his sense may be good From Christ he saith to the Apostles from the Apostles to the Scriptures This is pure non-sense if I mistake not and beside I aske him where is that orderly way he told us of and how is the case now according to 1 Cor. 3. by him alleadged for the Authority of an unbaptized Church Doth he not by this discent seclude them from all rather then inright them to any such authorite happily he will say Oh from the Scriptures to us very good But first how from Christ to the Apostles Did Christ our Lord preferre the Apostles before his beloved Spouse for whom he gave himselfe I alwayes took the Apostles as the servants of the Church for Christs sake Secondly did the Ordinances 2 Cor. 4. 5. proceed from Christ to the persons of the Apostles or to their office as Apostles So as when they in regard either of person or office left the world it descended to the Scripture certainly the right and interest of the Scriptures was the same before the death and cessation of the Apostles as after and the Scriptures gained no legacie by such friends unlesse a sealing to the truth and full authority of their direction so from the Scriptures to us a wonderfull matter a very fair Ring from the Scriptures to the Scriptures and so to us just nothing but a shew of words without matter Further he saith That all succession is now spirituall So it seemeth he holdeth it was carnall before when it was from Abraham to Moses from Moses to Christ and the Apostles and so to the Scriptures and now it is from the Scriptures to us it is spirituall a rare conceit He saith it is now according to faith whether he mean faith of miracles or what else is hard to say but it mattereth not much for he is beside the Scriptures and walking in some other field It followeth not saith he the personall succession of any but onely the Word of God Answ Sure J. S. speaketh in a strange tongue he is never able to make out his sense that succession follows the Word the Word being immoveable and that which abideth for ever and hath no place for succession though he thus speaketh he know not what And the word of God he saith
giveth being to all Order and Ordinances It doth give being of direction and warrant declaring what is good and lawfull and what not It acts nothing God requireth an orderly way and that is by the Church Now courteous Reader do but seriously consider how J. S. hath cleared the way of raising and beginning again Baptisme lost and fallen out of the world as he beleeveth and how he hath removed the difficulties in the way which he ealleth clouds that darken the skie See if thou do not yet finde it very dark and cloudy as ever and never the clearer for all the labour and pains he hath taken and whether his labour and travell herein hath been to any more purpose then the washing of the Blackmoore For first of all Whereas he referreth thee to the Scriptures as the Successours of the Apostles in his opinion First Thou seest the Scriptures were before the Apostles and the Apostles themselves were guided by them Secondly That the Scriptures are onely directive and act nothing at all neither can they and beside they do not direct to any such course as the constituting an unbaptized Church or authorizing unbaptized persons to baptize Thirdly Thou seest what great cause of doubt and question there is according to his opinion whether these Scriptures be the Scriptures of God and whether they have not lost their being having been so long in Babylon and in the hands of Antichristians especially if it be minded that they were by Antichristians translated into our native Tongue their translating must needs make them Antichristian and to be rejected as false as well as their Baptisme Where will J. S. be then do thou but think for the raising a new his Church and Baptisme which I would wish him and those of his way to consider of well But then in the second place God being to be sought as he holdeth in an orderly way according to what he hath declared as his judgement and this orderly way being by the Church rightly gathered and constituted to whom Christ hath committed the power Consider good Reader in the first place that if the Scriptures be not Antichristian as his opinion inforceth that they have in them no ground or warrant by any example or precept for such an unbaptized Church neither can such a supposed Church be orderly constituted or the proceed thereof orderly the Scripture being wholly silent concerning any such thing This conceit of so making Christs Church and so making Baptisme being a meer Popish Tenent and the proceed therin like unto theirs in such like cases So as this Ordinance of Christs Baptisme being according to his opinion destroyed in Babylon and there being no orderly Church of Christ in earth to be found as he holdeth nor no Christ Moses Eliah or Prophet from heaven appearing nor yet any that by Signes and Miracles can prove the truth of their Mission I conceive it necessarily followeth and I willingly leave all men free to judge of it That J. S. is yet for all his clearing in a great straight and under a dark cloud out of and from under which he will not be able to get unlesse he do as Saul did make bold to do that which is unwarrantable and so running before he be sent and doing that which God never spake any word about the which he shall do well to take further knowledge of CHAP. III. Containing a defence of the judgement of such as hold that Baptisme hath continued Gods Ordinance in the Apostacie of Antichrist notwithstanding the corruptions attending of it in way of Answer to the Cavils and Exceptions of J. S. against the same BEfore that J. S. could finish the matter in the former Chapter and clear it as he pretended to do he found some Tenents in his way as opposite to that pretended truth but indeed errour which he endeavoured to maintain the which he setteth down thus First such as stand for a personall succession Again thus A word or two to such as hold succession in the defection of Antichrist Again Such as hold Baptisme by personall succession as in pag. 39. may be seen To which I answer First That sure J. S. mistaketh himself being never able to make it appear that any person or persons do so hold So I might let him alone to contest with his own fancie But in as much as he may happily have met with some that hold the continuation of Baptisme as Gods Ordinance in that defection not in way of succession that being no way proper to an Ordinance returning home unto himself his phrase of succession as darkening the truth I shall apply my self to take knowledge of his scope and purpose First he saith Such have received a sufficient Answer that hold so in what he had writ before To which I answer Indeed if he might be his own Judge in his own cause it might be so It were much better that others should have said so and praised him then he thus his own work But what was it that he had proved before in his conceit That all the world are unbaptized onely he and those of his way Is he not a mighty Champion thus to nullifie and make void the Christianity of all Christians in the world It is more then Turks could ever do by all the force and power they had He hath yet a word or two more to say to such as hold contrary to his erroneous conclusion that Baptisme hath continued and doth continue Gods Ordinance c. And first he begins by way of Querie thus If they mean by defection the outward form of worship and Government Ecclesiasticall as he thinketh they do Answ Is defection of so hard and doubtfull sense with J. S. as he should querie thus and go by thinking he may know that defection or defilement pollution or corruption are of one nature and that there is a reall difference betwixt corruption and the thing corrupted between defilement and the thing defiled betwixt Religion and Gods Ordinances and mens additions to and detractions from the same They mean that the Ordinances and in particular Baptisme hath continued from the Apostles downward thorow all the apostacie and defilements that have attended Religion and it to this day Just as Circumeision of old did continue Gods Ordinance in the apostacie and defilements of the ten Tribes under Jeroboam and likewise in the time of Manasses in Judah This is their meaning and what then Then saith he all the power and authority that ever carried out any Administration or constituted Ordinance depends on the same Just as Circumcision depended on the Calves in Jeroboams apostacie And if so saith he then the Ordainer and Ordinance ordained are both of one nature Yea they are both of one nature God is the Author he is spirituall and Baptisme the thing ordained so also If one be saith he Antichristian the other is also Antichristian Strong lines without proof What if neither be Antichristian neither the Authour nor
Ordidinance where is J. S. then For truly his collective reason is as much as if a person opposing Circumcision as none of Gods Ordinance because of the Idolatry of the Jews should have reasoned thus If the Israelites be Idolaters and the Calves Idols and no gods and the Priests Priests to them that are no gods then is Circumcision 2 Chro. 13. 9. of the same nature also as are the Calves Priests and Jeroboams whole way of Dan and Bethel And for proof should say as J. S. doth that it was the power of Jeroboams way or of his Calves that carried on the whole form of worship and proceed and the power and Ordainer and the Ordinance ordained must needs be of one stamp if one so then so the other Had not such a way of arguing overthrown Circumcision then aswell as Baptisme now Let J. S. be Judge himself and let him tell me whether he would not have distinguished in the case Againe I will propose another instance in the way of his Argument Thus the Author and thing ordained or made must be of one and the same nature if one be Antichristian the other also for so he hath proved be saith But the Authors namely those that translated the Scripture were according to his opinion Antichristians and there be additions and detractions as in some translations there are Now the thing made or translated must be of the same nature with the Translators that were the Authors and if it were added for proof it was the power of their Antichristian spirits that carried on the whole worke and proceed thereof and so conclude as before both are one and the same If J. S. now would in this stand to his own ground where would he be he would be as far to seek for new Scriptures as they are for Church and Ordinances that hold there neither is nor yet can be any in the World or as he himself was not long since for Baptisme But truly it is much to be pittyed to see such ignorance in men professing knowledge that they cannot distinguish betwixt Gods Ezek. 4. 4. posts and mens when mens are set by Gods That they cannot distinguish between Gods Ordinances and mens inventions and aditions that they cannot put difference betwixt the Arke and Dagon or his Temple in which he being placed fell before the Arke I would 1. Sam. 5. 4. faine know of J. S. when Baptisme that was Christs seased and lost its being and Antichrists Baptisme came in the roome of it sure he cannot tell But I must here tell J. S. that the power of Jesus Christ supports and carries his Ordinances in the midst of the deepest defections that Satan ever hath or could bring upon the same wherein his glorious power doth appear although J. S. would spoile him of it by faining that he is overcome his Church Ordinances destroyed Gods people of old remained his people his Church his Church his Ordinances his Ordinances as particularly Circumcision in the midst of the greatest defilements that ever attended that dispensation In like manner it is so now under al the defilements of Antichrist in particular Baptisme of which is our question as also the Church our Lord Christ his power being no way lessened for the upholding of it nor his faithfulnesse failed for the preservation thereof according to his promise who hath said The gates Mat. 16. of hell shall not prevaile against it It were good for J. S. to study well that place 2 Thes 2. 4. Where Antichrist is foretold sitting in the Temple or Church of God and if he would please but to take notice that there is difference between Gods Temple in which he sitteth and him sitting there as there was betwixt the Arke in the Temple of Dagon in which the Arke was he happily would change his thoughts and be of another minde and so come to have more respective thoughts of the power and faithfulnesse of Jesus Christ then now he seemeth to have Truly I suppose these foolish inferences of J. S. will appear to be but meer fantasies without any ground tending only to deceive the simple for any indifferent Reader will be able to distinguish betwixt Religion and corruption betwixt Ordinances and the evills by way of addition or detraction that attends them Circumcision was of God and it was the hand and power of God that carried it forth in those evill times The Idols Calves and Jeroboams Priests and his whole way as they were of and from another so another hand and power carried them along Even as in like manner Baptisme and other like things being of God are preserved and carried by a hand and power of God whereas that universall Church generall Ministery and government with those other forms of Churches Provinciall Diocesan and proportionall Ministery and Government Ceremonies with additions and detractions innumerable as they are from another fountain so they are carried in another channell and by another power abetted and set on namely by the power of the man of sin the author and inventer of them So far shall suffice in this But saith J. S. praising of himself He hath proved that if one be Antichristian the other is Antichristian By what Scripture he hath proved it none can tell And saith he To dream of any approved Church by the Word of God under the defection and yet a part of the same is for a man to look for a man in the Moon and to suppose a Church to consist in such matter as is destructive to it self and therein to hold a successisn of truth is against the light of nature and a keeping of the Pope upon the Throne of Christ whether he will or no. Answ Is not this high Divinity which I. S. belcheth out of his self-sick stomack against the people and truth of God Is it not a sore and heavy charge but it is well it is but said and not proved Now least any as simple as he that said it should believe it because it is said and that by a person venerable in their way I shall take the pains to examine the respective charges as they are laid down First saith he To dream of an approved Church by the Word of God A. Sure he dreamed himself in what he fathered thus upon his opposites who do not hold an approved Church in such a sense as J. S. seemeth to intend that is a pure and spotlesse Church But they hold according to the Scripture a Church to be really true and Gods though corrupt and greatly defiled I suppose he will not question but that Judah not to speak of Israel was the Church of God in Manasses time and in other times when Idolatry greatly prevailed yet not approved as pure and spotlesse but reproved for corruption and defilement yea and visited with the rods of men Psal 89. 3 2. because of the same that she might be reformed so as to be again approved of her
head and husband that all this time of her backsliding did not renounce her In short she was approved to be but not approved as pure in that her being And surely so is the case of the Church where Antichrist sits as God 2 Thes 2. 4. The matter so considered let J. S. when he awaketh make the most he can of it The second part of the dream is this that this is a part of the same I suppose he meaneth corrupt as the whole is To which I answer though it be corrupt yet it is no part of the corruption there being difference as before betwixt a thing and the corruption that attends it the Israelites were a part of the Schisme of Jeroboam The seven thousand were a part of the ten Tribes which went astray In a diverse 1 King 19. 18. sense persons may be of the Church of God and members for their parts and yet in a way of Idolatry and in that way none 1 Cor. 12. 27. compared with 1 Cor. 5. 1. 1 Cor. 25. 12. of Gods as may be further seen by the case of Manasses as also of the Priest that went astray that went along with the Israelites in their Idolatry sure there is little in this part of the whole But in the third place in his deep charge he saith this is to look for a man in the Moon Answ Just as J. S. did look for the Church and Baptisme in the Scriptures Indeed Eliah thought as his complaint sheweth that he was left alone but God told him otherwise for sure to Rom. 11. 3 4. minde a Church as retaining her being though in a corrupt estate is no looking for a man in a Moon though he for want of other matter and better proofe is pleased out of his sick stomack to say so against the truth and such as stand for it Fourthly saith he It is to suppose a Church to consist in such matter as is destructive to it self Sure J. S. cannot make out this in any rationall way it is but a part of his dream to hold a Church to consist of matter corrupt and degenerate as was the Idolatrous Israelites and as was the lukewarme Laodiceans is not to hold amisse is not to hold the matter destructive to the form or being The faithfull City becomming sometime a harlot Indeed such matter is against Esa 1. 21. the well being of the Church but that is not our question the matter of the Church ought to be holy and pure but it is often otherwise Fifthly he saith to hold a continuednesse of the Churches being though not of her well being his term is here succession of truth but he meaneth sure the Churches being It is against the light of nature Answ A marvellous high ascent and sore charge but it is but rashly spoken as one in a dream that loveth no inferences But however it is well it is not against the light of the holy Scriptures J. S. hath left them and is gone to the light of nature but how doth the light of nature teach that a Church and Ordinances of which is our question cannot continue their being if corrupt or greatly corrupted Truly no more then in the case of Job that he should not or could not be a man because corrupt Job 2. 7. The folly and weaknesse of this fifth part of the dream I suppose any weak judgement will be able to see and I will say no more In the sixth place to bring up the reare he addeth a charge of a foule nature That to hold a continuance of the Church and Ordinances under the apostacy of Antichrist Is a keeping of the Pope upon the throne of Christ whether he will or no But how doth this appear truly as all the rest because he saies so I would ask J. S. or any other if the holding the Israelites of the ten Tribes to be Gods people and their Circumcision to be Gods Ordinances did thus keep up that apostacy and the Calves at Dan and Bethel perforce as in the place of God and his waies Againe doth J. S. and those of his way because they hold the continuation of the same Scriptures and which is more translated by Antichristians in their sense and so successively from Pope Jone doth he or they in thus doing keep the Pope upon the throne of Christ whether he will or no It concerns him to see to it and to renounce and cast away those Antichristian Scriptures as he hath done his Baptisme and so seek new Scriptures too lest not being true to his owne principles hee should become guilty of keeping the Pope upon the Throne of Christ whether he will or no. Experience the School-mistris of fooles hath shewed the contrary of this charge in the Reformed Churches who have almost unthroned the Pope of whom J. S. and those of his way as if they had some compassion have busied themselves in making a little Terret Throne for him to sit upon and inhabit in namely their Babel practise And certainly their erroneous practise and way doth more help to keep the Pope upon the Throne of Christ then any other thing that pretends opposition to it as that course doth of which a little more hereafter and for the present I shall onely here aske J. S. whether he doe think the Pope doth sit upon the Throne of Christ yea or no if he say yea then sure hee sitteth in the Temple of God in the Church for Christs Throne is there He proceedeth after that great charge thus But to lay the chain of succession of truth this way namely through the Popedome of Rome as all such must doe that hold a personall succession of a Church Ordinances to consist in the same from the Apostles untill now What will such doe and where will their succession of truth lye when they come to the woman Pope of whom the Papists themselves are ashamed In answer I retort it thus to lay the chain of succession of truth this way namely through the Popedome as all such must doe that hold the writing or the letter of the Scriptures to have continued from the Apostles untill now in a way of personall succession in that defection what will such doe when they come to the woman Pope of whom the Papists themselves are ashamed truly J. S. hath cause to be ashamed of his foolish reason which if it were true he would finde himselfe to be at as great a fault as his oponent But further I say such as hold the continuation of the Church and Ordinances through Popish defection or under the state of the Popedome will doe well enough with their tenent notwithstanding Pope Jone who could never reach the Churches being to cause it to cease nor yet Baptisme of which in speciall is our question all the coined words of J. S. put upon the matter will not doe it as his chain of succession of truth in stead of continuation of Baptisme again hold
a personall succession again where will their succession of truth lye All these being returned home to J. S. their master he will see or at leastwise any indifferent person will be able to see that Pope Jone will help nothing in the case to hinder the continuance of the Churches being nor yet of the being of Baptisme with which Pope Jone medled not nor was any way concerned this matter at the most is but a relique of the dram before I. S. further tells us that when he speakes of personall succession of truth as in reference to Church and Church Ordinances he looks upon this in the power and authority tbat beares the same Answ Now J. S. seemeth something to awaken out of his dreame and to speak sense what ever sense he have in it his personall succession of truth set aside when he speaketh of the Church and Ordinances their continuance he looketh upon this in the power and authority that beares the same Now surely the power and authority that beares the Church and Church Ordinance up is the power of him that beareth up all things by his mighty power Jesus Christ our Heb. 1. 3. Lord against the gates of hell that preserves his Church as hee did his Arke when Dagon fell in his owne Temple Is it not a wonderfull Matth. 16. thing that he should conceit that Antichrist should by any power of his support Christs Church and the Ordinances thereof that with all his might and force indeavoureth their destruction and ruine but in vaine for Christ is stronger that with his mighty power supports them But J. S. looking awry cannot see any other bearing up the Church and Ordinances then by Antichrist and the Pope that are trampling it down what they can fitting there as God for by no meanes will he be brought to distinguish and put difference betwixt Gods Temple and the Man of sinne sitting in it but like Nicodemus he will say How can it be Joh. 3. For saith he To hold a Church to be true in regard of being you must mind and not of purity and the Ordinances their administred the true Ordinances of God and to leave this and to set up a way of worship apart from it and to deny communion with it is in his darke understanding a meere Schisme and the overthrow of all Order in Religion Answ I am both glad and sorry Glad that J. S. is no Apostle so as we are not bound to beleeve his bare word unlesse we will Sorry I am that he hath so dark a judgement and understanding as in this he doth discover For first I say a Church may be true and the Ordinances true that is Gods and yet both corrupt so as they cannot be partaken with all without sin In such a case there is to be a with-drawing from them in regard of particular communion in as much as we are to keep our selves pure not doing evill for good ends Yea a Church in regard of membership may be left and that without the said Churches consent as plainly appeareth by the example of the Apostles and others that left the Church of Israel of old and that while it was a Church And God himselfe calleth his people out of Babylon Rev. 18. 4. though the Church and Ordinances have a being there in as much as there can be no remaining there but there will be a partaking in sinne So as leaving particular communion and personall relation of membership I conceive is very necessary and according to God after the manner of all the Reformed Churches that have come out of Babylon renounced communion with her in the things of God because of the evills attending of them lest they should be defiled As on the other side they have drawn nigh to God in the purity of his wayes and worship as those did that left Israel in the time of their Apostacie and came to the Lord and his pure worship in Judah But thus to doe namely to leave a Church and Ordinances greatly polluted and defiled and to worship God together purely apart from that corrupted estate with-holding fellowship is in his dark judgement a meer Schisme alas poor dark judgement such a Schisme as he hath oft made and those of his way are full of in their own sense The holy Apostles and beleeving Jewes were Schismaticks in his account and all the Reformed Churches and Christians that have forsaken Babylon and are come out of her are all Schismaticks in his dark judgement But no marvell he so accounteth of these latter seeing by his reckoning they are not baptized Christians Truly he and those of his way by light and cleare judgements will be discerned to be even such themselves for doing as they doe Now to that latter part of this charge That it is the overthrow of all order in Religion I aske him which way it appeareth so to be sure he cannot tell for if it be well minded it will be found to be a speciall meanes of the preserving of religion decayed and a repayring of it and of reducing it to the first purity and an utter putting away all rust and defilement and therefore the Apostle giveth in charge having forewarned of the great defection of Antichrist not to begin a new but to keep the old Ordinances according Thes 2. 15. to the purity they were delivered to us J. S. his course I suppose is guilty of the overthrow of all order in Religion not onely what is of God remaining and afoot in the world but even of that also which is held forth in the Word in erecting a new Church and dispensing new Ordinances without a new Commission which never any did before After this he tells us of his learning Christ which sure is very little in regard of order as his way and course doth shew So far faith he as I have learned Christ men are to stand in their places and use all means to reclaim and reform corrupt Churches he meaneth by the word of truth Very good But what if they will not reform and all means which we can use availeth not This being done saith he so as of necessity I must leave off communion with them So as it seemeth communion may be left with a Church that is Gods because of evill and obstinacie in the same Then in such a case he thinketh for he onely giveth us his thoughts without Scripture he must disclaim them and separate from them To which I say it is but upon the condition of their non-repentance which challengeth sometime of waiting but that such a Church he ought to disclaim and separate from he holdeth First I would know whether he may do this while it remaineth a Church of Christ If he say yea then I ask him What is become of that which in his dark judgement was a meer Schisme But if he say nay not till the Church ceases to be Truly that will be a very hard matter for him to
immediatly from God that sent him to prepare the way of his Son Secondly concerning Iohn the Scripture testifieth That he was a Prophet and more then a Prophet But how or what or whether or Matth. 11. 9. no concerning his particular Baptisme it is altogether silent It is not for men to be over wise or meddle above what is written but let the body of Moses alone Last of all I will put it upon this Issue In the judgement of indifferent men whether they think it will follow that because Abraham and Iohn Baptist were the first beginners and actors in Circumcision and Baptisme by vertue of speciall Commission to them personally that therefore it was lawfull of old in case of Circumcision for any of the heathen to have also circumcised themselves and families or in the case of Baptisme for others at that time by vertue of his example to have baptized also as he did without any Commission at all for if in those times it was not lawfull for them so to do but of necessity they must go as our Lord did to the Baptist then in as much as length of time can give no warrant to a thing not warrantable at the first I conceive it will be given and concluded that Instance is invalide and of no force to warrant a person to baptize himself or others being himself unbaptized Which he in the case of Baptisme saith was written for our learning and teacheth us what to do upon the like occasion To which I say supposing the occasion he here speaketh of is not that of necessitie that hath no law but leaveth men at liberty to do the best they can which is the last refuge of I. S. and those of his way There is I say no such occasion as in the case of Iohn there being no Scripture to be fulfilled by sending a messenger before to prepare Christs Matth. 3. 3. way There is no such occasion for that there is no new Commission nor any new Ordinances to be set on foot Again there is no such occasion for that there is baptized persons in the world to repair unto that as Christ our Lord went to Iohn so we might go to them Besides what is not written cannot be for our learning Now it is not written when or where or by whom or whether at all Iohn was baptized so as none of any such things can be for our learning unlesse we will go beyond our Lesson But this is written that he was sent of God and had speciall Commission to do what he did that we might learn not to run before we be sent but to be obedient in going when we are bidden and doing as we are commanded as he did Further I. S. saith for the continuance of the Church from Christs words The gates of hell shall not prevail against it Here by the way I take notice that he hath laid aside his succession and personall succession and speaks now plain English namely the continuation of the Church Matth. 16. 18. Now what saith he to this He confesseth the same But in so doing he overthroweth his new way and course for if the Church continue and hath continued what need is there of new beginning and baptizing by persons unbaptized surely none at all And therefore he maketh his acknowledgement with a proviso that is by a distinction that indeed is either a non-sense or else a flat deniall The distinction is thus That this Church is to be considered in her instituted State as it lieth in the Scriptures in the rules of the foundation See what expressions are here Instituted State Rules of foundation Lying in the Scripture as much and no more then this according to the pattern set forth in the Word Or otherwise in the second place in her Constitation or constituted form in her visible Order As much as if he had said in her outward being Now of the pattern is not our question for as the pattern of the Temple was one thing and the Temple built or to be built was another thing so it is here But see what J. S. saith having made such a distinction as before to darken the truth Thus he saith Against the first hell gates never prevailed This pattern standing sure in the Scriptures as of old the pattern of the Temple might remaine when the Temple was destroyed But against the Church it self which is the second part of his distinction it hath prevailed So the summe is as much as if he had said hell gates never prevailed against the Scriptures but against the Church built according to the Scriptures it hath Now let any man excuse the irrationalnesse of I. S. if he can thus to grant in shew and deny in substance and truth with one breath the continuation of the Church according to the Word and ptomise of Christ made to the Church and not to the Scriptures And I say unto thee thou art Peter and upon this rocke Mat. 16. 18. to wit himseif I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevaile against it to destroy it For why it was built on a sure foundation not to be moved for ever Now this Church the continuation whereof he granted before having deceived himself and his Reader by a groundlesse distinction he denieth the continuation now and saith Hell gates hath prevailed often against it But whence is it that he is thus contrary and I and no Saith he For the Church hath been often in her outward order scattered through persecution and the like Sure this is a very weighty reason thus to over power a man what if the Church hath bin scattered through persecution must it then follow a destroying by hell gates though the Church hath been greatly scattered through persecution yet she continued her being and was so far from being by hell gates prevailed against as that they overcame by suffering Rom. 8. the gates of hell and were more then conquerers The blood of the Martyrs being the seed of the Church and the Church the more oppressed the more growing and increasing J. S. saith in this sense of being scattered she is said to be overcome To which I say that this is not the sense of Mat. 16. 18. nay it is against the sense of the Scripture that by afflictions the Church should be overcome when as in all afflictions the Church hath been more then conquerers through Christ that loved her I. S. citeth two or three places Dan. 7. Rev. 12. Act. 8. 1. For that in Daniel it is utterly against his sense for speaing of the Kingdome of Christ his Church it saith it shall not be destroyed vers 14. 27. As for that Rev. 12. it plainly declareth the prevailing of the Church and not her being overcome or destroyed and that they overcame by the blood of the Lambe and that the Dragon was cast out It indeed speaketh of the womans fleeing into the Rev. 12. wildernesse but there she
was preserved and not destroyed the earth helping the woman against the rage of the Dragon Sure there can no sense hence be gathered of hell gates prevailing to destroy her Lastly Act. 8. 1. It speaketh of Sauls making havock of the Church and persecuting of it but this tended greatly to the increase of it and not to the destroying of it Certainly I. S. will not think much lesse say hell gates at this time prevailed against the Church indeed it never did for that was alwaies true which was said of the Church of old Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth may Ps 129. 1. 5. Israel say but they have not prevailed against me the righteous Lord hath cut the cords of the wicked in sunder I suppose I. S. hath but small judgement and lesse aim to bring such Scriptures as these to prove that hell gates have prevailed against the Church in any Scripture sense It were far better for him to hold the continuation of the Church according to the sure Word and faithfull promise of Christ and if he would not acknowledge her continuance under the apostacy and defection aforesaid then to indeavour to find her continuance some where else But in regard this would overthrow his new unbaptized Church and proceed that way he rather chuseth to asperse Christ of unfaithfulnesse in his promise then by acknowledgement to give him the glory of it In regard of the former matter J. S. seemeth to have had an eye to a collaterall reason which he setteth down thus Where was their Church before it came out of the defection First let it be observed how he shaketh hands with the Romanists that use to say in like manner Where were the reformed Churches before Luther But in further answer to this demand I say it was in regard of the matter of it in Babylon as the seven thousand were in the apostacy of Jeroboam out of which apostacy of Babylon God called them forth Rev. 18. 4. And so by the efficacy of that heavenly voice they being drawn forth they served God in the purity of his Ordinances a part as the Israelites that left Jeroboam and his Idol-worship 1 Thes 1. 9. at Dan and Bethel and served God at Hierusalem These turned from those Idoll waies in Babylon To the pure service of God in Sion and so kept according to the injunction the Ordinances as they were delivered to them 2 Thes 2. 15. This question is of the nature of what we have treated on before about leaving a corrupt Church for obstinacy in evill and therefore I shall not further trouble my self nor the Reader about it being assured it cannot reach so high as make good any sense of the destroying of the Church by persecution to which it is added here I shall only here minde the Reader that our question is not of one particular Church but of the state of the Church remaining in one place or other with few or many in freedome and purity or in bondage and corruption according eo various conditions and changes that attends her in the world wherein she is in all of those conditions preserved by Almighty God I. S. addeth in his further proceed saying That which once was in such a way of being and ceases for a time and then comes to the same estate againe is and may truly be said ever to continue as Mat. 22. 31. with Luk. 20. 38. In which sense the Church may be said ever to continue for though she be cast down at one time yet god will raise her againe at another so as she shall never be prevailed against so as to be utterly destryed Answ This is plaine nontsense to me first granting then denying and so the whole amounting to just nothing but a meer conceit Here is the Church in a way of being here is the Church seasing to be for a time here is the Church comming to live have being again here is the Church that ceased to be for a time affirmed untruly to have ever a being just as the Temple had when it was destroyed here is the Church cast downe that is without being for so he must mean else he deceiveth here is the Church said to be raised up by God againe and her being restored to her here is concluded the Church was never prevailed against so as to be utterly destroyed Truly truth is strong and prevaileth I. S. speaketh not as of himself but as overcome by the truth which he fought to darken and turn aside but at last is forced to confesse it as they were that had hand in crucifying Christ that said Truly this was the Son of God when they had before crucified him So Mat. 27. 54. he in like manner is in the end forced after all to confesse that the Church was never prevailed against so as to be utterly destroyed But I shall here observe how that what he before said might be made a rationall matter if it were rightly applyed as thus That which was once in such a way of being that is to say pure and undefiled and for a time ceases so to be that is becomes corrupt and defiled like the faithfull City that became an harlot And Es 1. 21. then comes the same estate againe that is to her former purity and holinesse is and may truly be said ever to have a continuation In this sense I would joine with J. S. touching the Churches continuation for though she be corrupted at one time yet God will restore her to purity at another yea If by affliction she be diminished Ps 107. 39. Ps 105. 24. and made low at one time yet at another time God increaseth her like a flock of sheep In either of which senses she hath never been prevailed against so as to be destroyed but this genuine sense J. S. may not admit of for that it will not stand with his way and practice and therefore by multiplicity of expressions he would produce some thing namely That the Church may some time live and have a being and at another time die and lose her being and yet she shall never cease to be That is be prevailed against to be destroyed and this he thinketh to prove by alluding to a place or two of holy Scripture before quoted for confirmation of his conceit To which I answer those Scriptures indeed do seem to illustrate his sense and what he intendeth namely that the Church may be said ever to continue though at some time she ceased to be But how senselesse a thing it is thus to conceit will appeare if we minde the matter a little It is the resurection of the dead which is the case now as men die and are not and yet shall live again and be so the Church in like manner But may such and such men be said to have ever a continuance in the World which is our question and not to have been destroyed by death because they shall
rise againe Nay doth not this prove plainly that death had dominion over them and that they were thereby destroyed for otherwise how should there be place for their rising again And indeed the restoring of the Church to her being doth necessarily imply the losse of her being otherwise there would be no place for restoring If all men had been destroyed at the deluge of Noah a new creation had been necessary Happily he may think their is something in that that God is not the God of the dead but of the living in as much as all live to him Indeed this may prove the soules immortality and living with God But what sense it hath in regard of the Church is beyond my thoughts for certainly if it hath reference to the Church it will enforce the being and continuace of the Church of the Jewes and the Patriarchall Churches which ceased long agoe To imagine their continuance what can be more vaine But further if because all live to God therefore the Church alwayes hath a being where is place left for her death and cessation Truly this is a matter too far fetcht to prove any thing in this matter that may stand him in any stead for if any thing be gathered from it it must be that as Abraham and so other Prophets dyed and left the world so the Church of Christ dyed also and was destroyed out of the world But if he shall say Abraham and the rest lived notwithstanding The answer is they lived indeed another way not in regard of their mortall bodies but in regard of their immortall soules Their outward visible bodies were destroyed and in the dust so the outward visible Church is destroyed and ceases to be but the inwardnesse of it the life and soule to wit Jesus Christ is in heaven with God what this maketh to the matter in hand I leave the Reader to judge And this way saith J. S. I suppose Christ may have and enjoy as good a wife ever as any can be preserved for him under the defection of Antichrist Answ This way is a meere supposition without reason and against sense That Christ should have sometime a wife and sometime none and then one againe and yet he should have ever one preserved It were good to lay aside such senselesse suppositions and to beleeve the Scriptures that tell us that the man of sinne sometime sitteth in the Temple of God and that Gods Temple 2 Thes 2. 4. remaineth and hell gates shall not prevaile against it Though the Church Christs wife may goe astray and be corrupted yet he Matth. 16. 18 that is her husband will not forsake but will reform her and refine her and put new garments on her sure he hath read what God said of old to his Spouse Thou hast played the harlot with many Jer. 3. 10. 22. lovers yet return to me saith the Lord I am thy husband and thy maker But happily if he had then lived hee would have supposed Esa 54 5. that Christ might have had or have made to himselfe a new as he in this case endeavoureth to doe for him as good a wife as that that was so corrupt and defiled The truth is there is more rich grace and free mercy in Jesus Christ then to take advantage and to refuse and put away for he is the Lord that changeth not and therfore his Church is not destroyed no notwithstanding the evils she Mal. 3. 6. falleth into for he hateth putting away It were more sutable for J. S. and those of his way to professe Mal. 2. 16. the doctrine of workes which is sutable to their other opinions then the doctrine of free grace unlesse they would be more true to their principles as in this particular more especially wherein they hold corruption dissolveth the marriage bond and maketh the relation to cease and causeth the everlasting Lord to change and his Covenant to faile for evermore Psal 77. 8. The following complaint and story by which it is illustrated I have spoken unto it before in which matter of guilt if hee and those of his way should take water and wash their hands they would notwithstanding be no lesse guilty then Pilate was of Jesus blood But after this he telleth of his feares and that is that men put more in Baptisme then doth of right belong to it that doe preferre it before the Church and all other Ordinances besides Answ Is not J. S. and those of his way sick of this disease and that as dangerously as those he is in such feare of how otherwise should it be that they should be so often baptized over and over and over againe and make a Church that they may make Baptisme I leave the Reader to judge 2. How doth this appeare which he so feareth in others that they preferre it before the Cburch and all Ordinances beside Answ It is onely to the qualification of the matter externally that it might be sutable to the rest of the building Ephes 5. 26. But yet this charge is not altogether true for they doe not preferre Baptisme before the Word and the publishing of it by which faith comes Nay they doe not preferre it above or before the Church the Church being the pillar and ground of truth that is of the truth 1 Tim. 3. 15. of Ordinances and divine worship and so of Baptisme in the proceed of it in a right way which Church the matter of it at the preparing of it by John was first baptized and after laid together in the building So of this matter thus by Johns preaching prepared and by his washing in the second place fitted was in after time gathered and laid into a holy building to the Lord which Church way begun and setled in the world augmented and encreased those washed washing others according to Christs appointment never any unwashed person being added or laid into the building since the Church begun it being necessary that the matter of the Temple be outwardly fitted that it may sute with the rest of the building being laid thereon So as J. S. may be satisfied that his feares in the first place are causelesse the Church being on foot according to God Baptisme in administration followeth But in further declaring the reason of his feares he saith For they can erect a Church take in and cast out members elect and ordaine officers administer the Supper and all anew without looking after succession any further then the Scriptures But as for Baptisme they must have that successively from the Apostles though it come through the hands of Pope Jone what the reason of this is that men can doe all from the Word but onely Baptisme and that must come by man even by the man of sinne Answ To balance the thoughts of J. S. I will present a case to his consideration supposing he had lived in the Apostacie of the ten Tribes yea of Judahs Apostacie and returning to the Lord
matter and clean out in this first Notion Second Notion And for succession of truth truth of Ordinances you must understand It comes now by the promise of God and faith of his people whom he as aforesaid hath taken out of the world to the fellowship of the Gospel Answ Setting aside succession and in stead thereof putting in continuation What can be more right then this though not in J. S. his sense The truth of Ordinances continues by vertue of Gods promise made to his people they continuing to beleeve in him and not forgetting his name though many times greatly failing against him as of old yet the truth of Ordinances continue namely the Church and Baptisme now as the Church and Circumcision did of old and this by the promise of God J. S. hath no such sense as this but some inward familisticall sense of inward faith and Gods promise to such secret beleevers which he is never able to make out any such thing that the truth of Ordinances depends upon them in regard of continuation by vertee of the promise of God to them in such a secret way Third Notion To whom the Ordinances of Christ stand only by succession of faith What faith outward or inward and not of persons What faith severed from persons Answ I would fain know what any rationall man can make of this either in it self or as it hath relation to what is before declared Fourth Notion For the same power the Apostles had in former time for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures have in the hand of Christ as the head of the Church which make up but one body 1 Cor. 12. 12. Answ such power for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures had of old when the Apostles lived Some other things J. S. aimeth at but the truth prevaileth and the words he here useth will nothing avail namely of the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the Church It s worth observing how the Church is here couched just after the manner of the Babylonians that pretend their Church is inspired with the Holy Ghost and cannot erre for Christ the head is in Heaven and hath left his Word for direction in godlinesse for his Church to take heed unto Now the holy Apostles had authority to act Ordinances according to Christs command they were to preach pray break bread and baptize the Scriptures were not sent neither act they any thing as before So as in J. S. his sense it is utterly untrue that the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the body have the same power to act Ordinances as the Apostles had Notion fift and last So as what the Apostles and Church together might do in acting Ordinances you must understand the same may the head and body together with the Scriptures do now Reader observe how J. S. coucheth subtilly his unbaptized Church betwixt Christ and the Scriptures so as Christ being in heaven and the Scriptures only directive the whole matter for action will fall into the hands of the Church A contrivance as fine as the Papist found out when they were sore put to it by John Hus and the Bohemians and not able to defend themselves and their courses against the truth they invented and abetted this That holy Church could not erre Secondly observe how I. S. quitteth two of these three namely the head and body and concludeth laying all the stresse upon the Scriptures and so in effect saith nothing at all the Scriptures being only directive for saith he the Scriptures have the same whereas he should have said the head and body with the Scriptures have it Thirdly observe what a preposterous conjunction I. S. maketh of three in the matter of fact one of which to wit Christ the head is in Heaven who though he hath fulnesse of power acts not here below but in a providenciall and ministeriall way and the like The Church the second Christs wife is in all things to be obedient to Christ her husband his will and pleasure contained in the Scripture the Scriptures they act not but only direct where is I. S. now just where he was at the first and no further Fourthly this is utterly untrue which he concludeth that what the Church and the Apostles the Ministers of the Churches might do that the Scriptures he quitteth the head and body as before may do Now what might not the Church and the Apostles do in ordinances and administration orderly according to God what can the Scriptures act truly nothing at all their authority is only directive I suppose any one may see how far out I. S. is in these conceits In the close he is up again with revelation which happily if he did study and cleave unto would stand him in more stead then the Scriptures that are so helplesse to him in his cause CHAP. IV. Containing a defence of the opinion of them that hold no right or orderly Ministeriall Church without or before Baptisme I. S. Having ended his former matter against the Churches continuance and likewise the continuance of Baptisme under the popish defection proceeds saying And so we come to such as will have no Church before Baptisme and so make Baptisme the form of the Church Answ Who these such are that he intendeth I cannot tell they are either some of his own way or some other some of his own way do indeed so hold that Baptisme constitutes or is the form of the Church Did I think he intended them I should leave them to try it out and should not intermeddle with the strife I shall only as the matter relates to them shew my thoughts briefly namely that they will be too hard for J. S. in the tenent he himself being of their belief but that he is not true to his owne principle otherwise how should he without Schisme and being a Schismatick leave the reformed and separated Churches and set up another of his own as he hath done only he accounteth them no Churches of Christ and what is the reason he doth so nothing but his Baptisme is wanting so as that must be the form that gives being for otherwise They are companies of Saints professing faith in the righteousnesse of Christ and living accordingly that is in holynesse of life This he describeth to be the matter and the form he declareth to be their being united and knit together in one fellowship or orderly body and that is the Covenant of grace by which God becomes not visibly as he unawars saith but in an outward way of relation a God unto them and they become visibly his people Now what is there to hinder J. S. from being a Schismatick by his own ground for surely nothing hinders those Churches which he forsaketh and disclaimeth as no Churches of Christ by all or any thing that in his description of the matter or form of the Church by him set down can be found and let him take in his five Reasons to help him if he
please So as it must be the want of his new Baptisme or nothing and then I leave it to him to judge whether that be not the form of the Church necessarily according to his ground that gives the being thereunto Secondly if by such he meanes those he was an opponent of in the former matter of the Churches continuation and likewise Baptisme under Popish defection I shall adde a little in the way of defence First granting that such hold indeed no Church to wit rightly constituted as a right or lawfull Ministeriall Church without or before the matter of this Church is baptized Secondly denying that in so holding they make Baptisme the form of the Church as he inferreth and so make Baptisme the form there is more goeth to the proof of a matter then so His five Reasons might well have been spared by which he would prove Baptisme not to be the form of the Church till he had made that to appear to be of necessity the right consequence which sure he is never able to do for there was no right Ministeriall Church of old without Circumcision yet Circumcision was not the form of that Church an uncircumcised person was not to be admitted a member much lesse an officer Circumcision was then an externall qualification of the matter as in like manner is Baptisme now In this matter we shall have recourse to the first beginning of the Church of the new Testament and of Baptisme John the Baptist the forerunner of Christ sent of God to prepare the way of his Son according to Commission baptized much people as did also afterward the Disciples of Christ our Lord to him repaired our Lord to be baptized that righteousnesse might be fulfilled It may be observed by the way that this was in the Church of the Jewes Of these thus baptized was the Church of the new Testament begun whether the initiation of it be referred to the time before the passion of our Lord as to himself and the twelve with whom he brake bread or whether it be referred to the time after his resurrection when he gathered the 120. together and blessed them as is most Acts 1. proper let him take his choice and refer to which he will it was begun of the aforesaid baptized matter which is certainly to the life of the matter in hand in discovering that the matter of the Church was fitted by Baptisme before it was laid together As was the Church at the first rise of it so was the proceed those 120. baptized those that joyned with them being not before baptized as it is written they were baptized and added to the Church This first Church scattered by persecution became the instrument of increase and the first matter of many Churches which Churches by their instruments baptized such as received the faith and joyned into the Lord and thus was the Church and Kingdome of Christ spread throughout the World as the holy history doth shew And let J. S. or any of his way shew that there was ever any unbaptized Church or Congregation of the new Testament or that ever any unbaptized person was received into fellowship or that ever any unbaptized person after Baptisme was a foot in the World baptised or was authorized for to do it And lastly let him tell me whether the order of the new Testament as in another case he asked be not as strict in this case of Baptisme as it was in Circumcision of old when no uncircumcised might have part in the Church or fellowship in the Ordinances much lesse act Ordinances Esek 44. in way of dispensing of them to others And let him tell me whether a precept or example be not as necessary in all those cases as in that of baptizing Infants And lastly whether his practice of raising and beginning the Church of unbaptized persons do agree with the primitive practice of our Lord and his Apostles that began the Church of baptized matter as before J. S. propoundeth a second Reason of his opponents thus The Scripture speaketh of no Church before Baptisme To which he answereth as he did to that of the Gates of Hell not prevailing against the Church He must distinguish he saith A meer shift to blind his Reader and avoid the truth there needs no distinction at all in the case He would not take it well if any should distinguish in case of Infants Baptisme But what is his distinction it is betwixt the truth of the doctrine of Baptisme and the administration of it just as he did in the fore-named case as much as if he had said He must distinguish betwixt the Scripture that teacheth Baptisme and Baptisme or washing according to the Scripture In this first sense Baptisme or the doctrine of Baptisme as much as if he had said the holy word of God is before the Church What this is to the purpose is beyond my judgement nor yet that which followeth no Church according to the order of Christs Testament without it or before it No Church without or before the Scripture how this is to the matter in hand and what clearing or rather darkning there is in this distinction I leave the Reader to judge But now for the second part of the distinction Namely the outward administration of Baptisme that ever followeth the Saints joyning in fellowship by mutuall faith and agreement in the Doctrine wherein consists the stating of the Church in her conjoyning in Covenant which ever goes before in the administration of Baptisme and gives power and authority for the same so saith he in the first sense the Church is not before Baptisme but in the last it is Answ The summe and scope of this whole matter amplified and enlarged is utterly false being referred to the purpose for which J. S. doth bring it namely to prove an unbaptized Church or the Scriptures speaking of such Alas this is farre from proving the matter no not in a seeming way In this case it may be truly said from the beginning it was not so The matter of the Church was fitted outwardly by Baptisme as is before declared And the Scriptures give no president of such Church officer or member at any time such a proceed being cleane besides the Scriptures 2. J. S. deceiveth if not himselfe yet others in what he setteth down in referring that to the initiation of a Church which is onely true of the proceed The Church stated and on foot in the world according to God of baptized persons baptizeth others in way of proceed in a orderly way of administration so it was at the beginning and to begin otherwise is not according to the pattern So as not taking notice of the difference between right beginning and orderly proceed he is clean out and beside the truth and his distinction will appeare to be vain and to no purpose unlesse to deceive for as he setteth down that Baptisme ever followeth in regard of the administration of it the Saints joyning in