time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
A GODLY AND LEARNED ANSWER TO a lewd and vnlearned Pamphlet INTITVLED A few plaine and forcible Reasons for the Catholike Faith against the Religion of the Protestants By RICHARD WOODCOKE Batchellor of Diuinitie 2. COR. 4. 3. 4. If our Gospell hid it is hid to them that are lost In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds c. LABORE ET CONSTANTIA LONDON Printed by N. O. for Iohn Bache and Nicholas Bourne and are to be sold at his shop vnder the Royall Exchange 1608. TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL SIR ALEXANDER HAMPDEN KNIGHT AND TO THE WHOLE Worshipfull and auncient Familie of the HAMPDENS in Buckingham Shire RIght Worshipfull it is now almost a yeare and a halfe since there came to my knowledge a Popish Pamphlet made and scattered abroad as it seemeth by some popish seedesman and I cannot tell whether some ligter in our quarters which yet I hold to be more then probable This pamphlet he intituled A few plaine and forcible Reasons for the Catholike Faith against the Religion of the Protetestants These reasons comming into the hands of a young Papist and Recusant as I take it whom this or some other deceitfull workeman had poysoned with the venome of Poperie He attributed so much thereunto that being moued by a faithfull and louing kinseman to renounce his popish recusancie and to come to the Church and become a Protestant he answered that he was vndoubteâ—ly perswaded that he held the right and therefore would persist therein and that because They were resolued and put out of doubt of the truth of their Religion by these foure Reasons The aforesaid yong Papist deliuered these 4 reasoÌ„s to a Minister of his acquâ—â—tance with purpose to haue them deliuered to a godly Preacher as a chalenge for so I interpret it by reason that he by his vigilant and industrious trauell stood much in their light that they could not spread their popish heresie so farrâ— and so freely as they desired This Pamphlet being thus come to his hands God offering opportunitie of a Christian meeting of some few of vs Fellow-ministers he brought forth vnto vs and specially requested me the Pamphlet being not very long a little that time to peruse it which in some part I did Being further moued by him to take it in hand and to frame and answer thereunto I alleaged for a tust excuse that there was in it nothing new but that which had beene often obiected and often answered And therefore as this Crambe I held not worth the answering so if any vnresolued were desirous to receiue satisfaction in the matter they might plentefully find it if they listed to peruse what before time had bene answered by many others Howbeit not so satisfying him for that it seemed good these 4 Reasons being so highly esteemed to discouer the vanity of them I was content to take them with me as he requested Yet without any certaine promise to deale with them the rather because I had then in hand some labor of writing in another argument which being finished finding by perusing them how full of vaine ostentation they were how subtle by a new fiction to pretend somewhat for Poperie out of the Religion of Protestants how pernicious by striuing to worke the highest resolution in Papists how closely the matter was conueted to get authoritie and credit to popish heresie by these Corner creeping reasons which seemed already to be made familiar to the vulgar sort I thought it a point of charitie plainly and demonstratiuely so to lay open the vanity of them as euen the vulgar sort whose iudgement was already captiuated by these reasons might be able to discerne the truth of my answer Many things in the same arguments hâ—â—e bâ—na herâ—tofore copiously and learnedly written by sundry graue Diuines which yet in one respect or other being aboue the reach of common Christians haue either not come to their hands or exceeded the measure of their capacitie For their sakes therefore haue I chiefly trauelled not to speake much but to speake plainely and as neere as I could the point of the obâ—ection After I had finished my first Copie I was constrained to write it the second time hauing no other meaning but to returne my written answer to my godly brother of whom I receiued the Copie of the 4. Reasons so to communicate it if he thought there were any that might receiue satisfaction by it The young Papist that deliuered abroad the Reasons had before boasted that because the Reasons had rested some time as he thought in the hands of him to whom they first came vâ—answered therefore he was sassured that they could not be answered The truth is that before I could obteine leysure to take them in hand or was indeed fully resolued so to do there passed one quarter of a yeare and more and when I had finished the answer I made no haste as to some is knowne to write the second copie When at conuenient times I had finished it I sent it to be deliuered in writing and I vnderstand accordingly it was and came to sight as of some other so of that very Papist who was the instrument to giue abroad the Reasons who as the maner of them is hauing read some three or foure leaues flung it vp and made a tush at it saing He could answer the booke himselfe And not vnlike he could after their fashion euery child and audacious woman amongst them presuming to speake Fathers and Doctors as if their idoâ—atrous Priests and familiars did speake in them My godly brother hauing iust cause to suspect that the sayd popish Reasons were dispersed and considering that it was very hard for one written copie to serâ—e for all that were corrupted by them perswaded me to suffer â—y answer to deprinted I did as he knoweth not hastily intertaine his motion but wished to haue the aduise of some other of grauity godlinesse and learning from whom receiuing incouragement I yet made no hast being vnwilling in such satietie of bookes to increase the number especially hauing nothing to say but what had bene better said before Now at last perceiuing it to be desired and expected of those whom worthily I respect that I should permit my answer such as it is to be imprinted I haue yeelded my poore seruice in this little booke to the censure of the Church of God to the instruction of the seduced if it so please God and haue exposed it to the vttermost calumniation of the restlesse aduersarie who like raging sea is alwayes foaming vp his owne shame and casteth vp continually myre and dirt And because my ordinary ministerie hath now for some good time bene bestowed in that place where your Worship is an ordinary hearer considering also that the occasion hath sprung vp within the diuision of your Magistracie I haue presumed to offer vnto you and to publish in your name this small fruit of my extraordinary labors for remembring that worthy Griffith
Hampden Esquire of blessed memory who first called me to this place and likewise his sonne of great hope William Hampden by whom I receiued much comfort and incouragement in my Ministerie whose blessed end was to me no smalzeale of Gods blessing vpon my poore labors and now acknowledging Gods fauour towards me who hauing taken away hath supplied your Worship resolute in your selfe and in your worthy seruice for the truth of whom I haue receiued more then common loue For which in all thankfulnesse I render my selfe bound I thought it my duty to dedicate these my poore indeuors to your worshipfull selfe and Name Beseeching you to accept this my slender gift as a testimony of that due respect which worthily I beare towards you I pray God long to continue the honour of your whole house both in your selfe present and in all the the hopes posteritie and especially to make the long continued honor which in this life you haue eternall in the kingdome of his Sonne From great Hampden in Buck. 1608. Your worships in all Christian duty bound and ready RICMARD WOODCOKE AN ANSVVER TO A LEVDE AND VNLEARNED PAMPHLET SENT ABROAD IN WRITING BY SOME POPISH CORNER-CREEPER INTITVLED A few plaine and forcible reasons for the Catholike faith against the Religion of the Protestants The first Reason PAPIST THE Church of Christ continueth for Matth. 16. 18. 28 20. euer as is plaine in the Gospell confessed of all sides But the Protestants congregation Luk. 1. 33. hath not continued for euer and our Church hath Therefore not their congregation but our Church is the true Church of Christ PROTESTANT FIrst I answer to the whole syllogisme then to each part The whole syllogisme is faultie and sophisticall because there are in it quatuor termini First the Church of Christ viz. Catholike and inuisible Secondly the Protestants congregation viz. particular and visible Thirdly continueth for euer viz. inuisibly Fourthly hath not continued for euer viz. visible Wherefore the propounding of one viz. The Church Catholike and inuisible and assuming of another viz. Some particular and visible Church Affirming of the Catholike Church that it continueth for euer inuisible denying of the Protestants congregation that it hath not continued for euer visible You play fast and loose and like a Iugler deceiue the eyes of the simple For it is all one as if you should thus reason The true Sunne shineth continually Our Sunne shineth not continually Therefore our Sunne is not the true Sunne The Sunne indeed shineth continually but not in all mens sight And the true Church continueth for euer but neither wholly nor alwayes visible Our sun shineth not continually viz. to vs or in our fight The Protestant congregations haue not continued for euer to wit visible and apparant Now as he that concludes our sunne not to be the true sunne because it shines not alwayes in our sight proues himselfe no better then a Sophister so he that concludes the Protestant congregations to be no part of the true Church because they haue not continued for euer visible as now they are shewes himselfe a deceitfull worker and can deceiue none but the vnlearned and vnstable who for want of knowledge in the Scriptures haue not their senses exercised to discerne betweene good and euill betweene light and darknesse betweene truth and falshood Next to each part I answer and first to the proposition Where you say the Church of Christ continueth for euer if you meane the Catholike Church the whole company of the faithfull past present and to come in all places and times ioyned to the fellowship of innumerable Angels and Heb. 12. 22. 23. 24. to Iesus the Mediator as the head by the inuisible communion of one spirit I graunt you this Church continueth for euer howbeit knowne onely to God who onely knoweth 2. Tim. 2. 19. who are his and so the long continued visibilitie of your falsly called Catholike Church is not an argument to proue that the garish strumpet of Rome which hath made all nations drunken with the cup of her fornications is the true Reuel 17. 2. Church much lesse the Catholike Church and therefore out of your owne proposition rightly vnderstood I conclude against you The Catholike Church is not visible The Romish Church is visible Therfore the Romish Church is not the Catholike Church To your assumption The Protestants congregation hath not continued for euer If you meane the particularity of any congregation that now is called Protestant do you not then see that you fight with your owne shadow For we knowe and confesse that our particular congregations as now they stand haue not continued for euer but haue bene gathered ordered and established some earlier some later as God gaue the opportunitie and as by the light of the Gospell they were able to dispell the Cimmerian darknesse of Poperie But if by the Protestant congregation you meane as you ought the doctrine faith and worship of God now profesled and practised in the Protestant congregations we say your assumption is false and for proofe hereof appeale to the footsteps of all the particular Churches recorded in the Scriptures and to the Apostolike doctrine which they receiued If the now Protestant congregations do continue in the Apostles doctrine in fellowship in breaking of Acts 2. 42. bread and prayer as the Churches of Ierusalem Antioche Galatia Corinth c. did then the Protestant congregation in those things wherin consisteth the true being of a Church hath continued for euer and doth and shall continue maugre all popish heresie and treason And therefore thus we returne your Argument against you That church which cotinueth for euer is the true church of Christ The Protestant Church hath continued for euer doth and shall continue for euer because the word of God which they hold inuiolably abideth for euer Therefore the Protestant Church is the true Church of Christ PAPIST That their congregation hath not continued for euer is most plaine For where as there hath bene since Christ 1600. yeares let themset downe but two for euerie hundreth years and so in all but 32. and we will vrge them no further PROTESTANT The mouthes of Papists are alwayes open like hell and the graue they still craue and are neuer the fuller This old stale demaund hath beene alreadie often answered But would you haue two congregations or two only persons for euery hundreth yeare Before the captiuitie of Gods Church vnder Popish tyrannie let the godly Martyrs Bishops and Pastors whom histories do record and whose writings are extant testifie the faith of those congregations wherein they liued and serued in the chiefest points of doctrine which we maintaine against Papists That famous Iewell of blessed memorie hath to your euerlasting shame maintained it and if the God of this world had not blinded 2. Cor. 4. 3. 4. your eyes that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto you Nay if the iust
God had not 2. Thes 2. 10. 11. sent you strong illusions to beleeue lies because you would not beleeue the truth it could not be that you should thus grope at noone day and still call for proofe in that which is so abundantly proued After the Popes had once fully gotten into the chaire of Apostasie the ashes of those witnesses of God whom for the testimonie of Iesus Christ you haue slaine as they are kept in store for a witnesse against you on earth so their spirits now in heauen do cry against you as the bloud of Abel against Cain Since the discouery of that Man of sinne in these latter yeares you haue found our congregations through Gods goodnesse much thicker in all nations then you would haue suffered if your Nimrods armes had bene as long as they are wont to be But what if we should onely answer you that the first of these 1600. is more in triall of truth then all the rest as that one day of the institution of Matrimonie betweene one man Math. 19. 4. and one woman ioyned together by an vnseparable knot is more to proue the integritie thereof then all the yeares succeeding wherein Polygamie and Dinorce had preuailed Would you renounce the triall of these incorrupted times and appeale to the latter wherein sundry corruptions were apparantly crept in What were this else but to shunne the light as the maner of deceiuers and euill doers is What the religion of this hundreth was nay what it ought to be for euer let the Apostolike writers witnesse and it the Religion of the Protestant congregations be the same with the religion taught beleeued and practised in that hundreth let all the latter times know that they are too young to controle it much more let Popish noueltie retire into the schooles and cloysters where it was bred Lastly all the times succeeding haue imbraced the Scriptures as the very word of God haue retained the confession of faith called the Apostles Creede as agreeable to holy Scriptures and only herein haue sought for the Canon and rule of truth The Protestant congregations holding the same faith and seruing God by the same rule haue therefore on their sides the consent of all ages from Moses to Christ from Christ to his Apostles to this day auouching the faith and seruice of God which they follow and practise and are compassed with a greater cloude of witnesses then all the Popish Canonists Summists Iesuits and Disputants shall euer be able to shew Hence I thus conclude The faith of the first hundreth recorded in the Scriptures and reteined in the ages following holding firmely the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed is the true faith and they so beleeuing and holding the true Church The faith of the Protestant congregations is the same Therefore the faith of the Protestant congregations is the true faith and they the true faith and they the true Church PAPIST They say they haue beene though innisible and they know not where This answer cannot serue nor yeeld any content to a soule desirous of truth For what man carefull of saluation would leaue a Church alwayes visible and knowne as ours hath beene and follow a congregation the beginning whereof is yet fresh in memorie and was neuer heard of before for many ages together as themselues cannot deny PROTESTANT As your religion consists wholly of errors so you must needs defend it by lies and that against your owne knowledge if at least you haue informed your selfe of the truth of that we say Were not Christ and his Apostles visible were not the godly Bishops and Fathers of the Primitiue Church visible say we not that our religion is the same that Christ and his Apostles taught that the true Church of God succeeding in all ages did professe and practise according to the Scriptures whereas on the other side wherein soeuer you differ from vs you differ from the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and haue new forbished erroneous and hereticall opinions and build vpon mens imperfections and frailties and those neither agreeing with the Scriptures nor with the analogie of that faith which themselues mainteined taught Why then shame you not to affirme that we know not where the witnesses teachers of our religion haue bin for so your meaning must be True it is that against the long continued visibility of your inglorious Synagogue wherby you beare the ignorant in hand that yours is the true Church We answer truely and proue it by instance of the times of Elias and of our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles that the synagogue of Satan is oftentimes and for long time more visible then the Church of God and of Christ and that the Church of Christ is like the Moone as In Psal 10. Augustine Augustine compares it which sometime giues no light at all This our answer may giue content to euery soule that is desirous of truth especially such as will take the paines to search the Scriptures whether the things we say be so or no. As for that your bad asseueration that your Church hath beene alwaies visible and that the beginning of ours is yet in fresh memorie And was neuer heard of before in many ages together as our selues you say cannot deuie it is euen as true as the rest of your religion Vnfold vs the antiquity of that capitall and fundamentall point of your religion Subesse Extran com de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam Romano pontifici est de necessitate salutis This is your principle of principles and yet as it is contrarie to all records of Scripture wherin there are no footsteps of any such dependance so is it controlled by the cleare testimony of all antiquitie by the primitiue state and constitution of the churches Concil Afric cap. 92. 101. 105. Concil Niceu Can. 6. Epist lib. 6. epist 30. li. 4. epist 38. in all the Christian world and by the iudicious sentence of Gregorie the first a Bishop of Rome And can we not deny that the beginning of our congregation is yet in fresh memorie c. God open the eyes of the blind to see your cunning and sophisticall equiuocation which is now become the idiome and proper language of poperie True it is indeede that the recouery of that libertie which by Gods mercy our Churches now enioy since they came out of the spirituall Babylon which is the Romish Synagogue may be fetched out of late memorie But is this the question betweene vs Or rather whether the beginning of that religion which giues the beeing to our churches and whereby they are distinguished from your Antichristian synagogue be yet in fresh memorie If Christ and his Apostles with their doctrine and faith be but of yesterday then so is ours But if theirs be from the beginning our religion being the same beginneth not one day or howre later then theirs did Lastly be it that the pompous and vainglorie of your synagogue be
elder then this renewed face of our churches will that proue any aduantage for you Was not the Apostasie of Israel elder then the protestation of Elias against 1. King 18. them much more then the returne of many out of Israel in the dayes of Hezekiah Was not the Pharisaicall synagogue 2. Chron. 30. before the preaching of Christ before the church which he gathered by his preaching Boast not therefore of what standing your Antichristian tyranny is but tell vs if you can of what truth your religion is Truth we graunt you is most ancient but error also is often very ancient and is called by Angustine Vetustissima falsit as most ancient falshood and Epist 166. when the truth after a long time of suppression commeth to the light againe in the eyes of them that iudge by the outward appearance error seemeth elder then the truth Wherfore let vs clime aboue these middle antiquities which may be common both to truth and error and let vs come to the eldest and most ancient times of the Church and there behold the true and vndisguised face of the auncientest and truest Church Let vs search the Scriptures which onely conteine the most infallible description of the true Church If you shun this light say it is because there is no truth in Ioh. 3. 19. 20. 21. you yea because your workes are euill and you feare to come to the light least it should be manifest that you walke in the truth PAPIST Secondlie this is to make your cursed Synagogue of the Iewes that crucified the Some of God and wickedlie cried out His bloud be vpon vs and our children for more glorious then Christs Church for which he shed his bloud and praied so inst antlie to his father for as they now be in manie parts of the world so can they shew where they haue remained preached their religion for all these 1600 yeares and to say that Christs Church is inferior to the Iewish Synagogue is so blasphemous as Christian eares should not endure to heare PROTESANT Did Christ shed his bloud to make his Church glorious and eminent in worldly prosperity like to the strumpet of Rome that sittes vpon many waters and hath rule ouer many Reuel 17. 1. people yea ouer Kings and princes No no his kingdome is not of this world By many tribulations must the Ioh. 18. 36. Act. 14. 22. Rom. 8. 17. Ioh. 16. 33. 2. Tim. 2. 12. Hebr. 12. 8. Church of Christ enter into the kingdome of heauen It must bee comforted to his suffering that it may be comforted to his glory If it suffer with him it shall raigne with him In the worlde it shall haue trouble but in him only peace All that are not pertakers of chastismens are bastards and not sonnes Againe did Christ by his instant prayer to his Father request that his Church might treade on the necks of Emrours ride on a stately sâ—eed and Kings to hold the stirrop and going by on foot to lead the Popes horse by the bridle Or that they might â—â—â—eample patrimonies large seigniories generall command ouer king and key sar yea power of life and death ouer euery creature and to translate kingdomes and to turne the world vpside-downe at their pleasure Where is this prayer contained why had not Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles the benefite of it why was the primitiue church so washed by horrible persecutions Christ neuer made any such prayer he prayed that his Church might be preserued not altogether from but in Iohn 17. 15 temptations not that the worldly powers might not annoy the bodies of his Saints but that their soules might be kept from euill not that they might haue their heauen in this world but that they might bee with him where he is and see his Vers 24 glory Againe was Christ inferior to the Iewes when they crucified him or Stephen when they stoned him to death or Iames when Herod cut off his head or Peter when he bound him in prison what saith the scripture For thy sake Acts. 7. 12 we are killed all the day long and we are counted as sheepe for the slaughter Neuerthelesse in all these things we are more then Psal 44. 23. Rom. 8. 36. 37 conquerors through him that loued vs. Surely by Romish Logicke and and Romish diuinitie farre more happy and glorious was the condition of Pilat the priestes and accursed Iewes that cried Crucifie him crucifie him then of poore Christ O you that are bewitched and inchanted by these Luk. 23. 21. Baby lonish charmes will you be led by such guides who know not the beginnings of Christian religion If any will be my Disciple let him take vp his crosse and follow me will you Math. 16. 24 thinke that such can guide you to heauen whose God is the world whose glory is shame which minde earthly things With them no outward prosperity no Church no earthly kingdome no Church no scarlet coloured beast Phil. 3. 19. no triple crowned Pope no hatted Cardinals no mirred Bishops no Church But see the singular boldnesse of this popish proctor ioyned with singular folly The cursed Iewes can bring as far fetcht antiquicy to proue their Synagoue to bee the true Church as the Papists can for theirs If such antiquity can make you Papists why may it not as well make you Iewes This forcible Reasoner prescribeth 1600 yeares for the Papacie not a yeare or a day lesse doth hee allowe to the Iewish Synagogue from whence I thus reason That which by Popish confession belongs as well to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists that can neuer proue the Popish Synagogne to be the Catholique and true Church Antiquitie of 1600 yeares belongs as much to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists as this plaine Reasoner confesseth Therefore antiquitie of 1600 yeares can neuer proue the Popish Synagogue to be the catholike and true Church PAPIST That our Church hath continued all this while is as certaine for to omit other Prouinces and Kingdomes where it hath beene openlie knowen and not to speake howe wee can shew the continuall succession of Bisops in diuerse places of Christendom as Rheimes Padua Leigh and from the Apostles times to these our daies we can heere in our country proue the continuance of our religion for these 1600 yeares euen from the time of Saint Gregorie the great Pope of Rome who sent hither Saint Austen that conuerted vs Englishmen froÌ„ Paganisme and Idolatry to the faith of Christ as our owne histories teach and from Saint Gregorie we can ascend by the current streame of Popes his predecessors to Saint Peter and Christ himselfe For that it was our Catholike religion which was then brought in by Saint Austen no doubt caÌ„ be made for our chronicles say so much the ruines of so many ancieÌ„t Abbies latelie suppressed do aboundantly testifie the same none of reason or reading will denie it
the thing is so euident and certaine That Saint Gregorie likewise coined not a new religion but kept that which by continuall succession descended vnto him from Saint Peter is as sure and certaine for if he had all the Christian world would haue exclained against him and yet no such complaint is to be found in anie Historie or writer but all highlie commend him for his holinesse and learning and in our English calender he is inrolled for a Saint and the like we may saie of all his predecessors for none of them was euer noted by anie to haue degenerated in anie one article of faith from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles and well knowen it is that 32. of the first were glorious Martyrs and shed their bloud for the name of Christ PROTESTANT That your popish Church hath continued 1600 yeares is so certaine as it is that your later Popes haue beene and are like those 32 Martyrs whose emptie number you bring forth to gaine credit vnto that degenerate rable that haue succeeded them not in shedding their owne bloud for the truth of Christ as they did but in spilling much Christian bloud partly about strange and vniust quarrels partly by treasonable and rebellious commotions of their owne raising partly by bloudy and fiery persecucions And therefore the succession of your Popes to those Martyrs is noe more credit to you then succession to Moses was to the Scribes and the Pharisees or succession to Aaron was to Annas Caiaphas As in place they succeed godly Bishops so in doctrine they succeed the Scribes and Pharisees and many Heretikes in irreligion and prophanes they succeed Lucian and Porphyrie in tyranny and cruelty Annas and Cayphas and the old persecuting Emperors of Rome into Reuel 13. 15. whose dead image they haue put life againe That which the Apostle Paul foretold of the successors to the Bishops of Ephesus that of themselues should men arise speaking perâ—erse Acts. 20. 30. things to draw Disciples after them hath too long beene verified of the successors in place to those first holy Bishops of Rome And were that true which you say that none of the predecessors to Gregorie the first were euer noted by any to haue degenerated in any one article of faith froÌ„ the religion of their forefathers the Apostles which is not vnknoweÌ„ to your selues to be most false for Alfonsus de Castro doth frankly coÌ„fesse that of Liberius the Pope it is manifest he was an Arriav that Anastasious did fauor the Nestorians Aduers heres lib. cap. 4. he that hath read histories doubteth not yeâ— if the successors of Gregorie haue bin iustly detected some for Atheists some Coniurers Necromancers some for Impoysoners some for villanous cruelty vpon the bodies of the quicke dead some notorious for bastardy besides other odious sins generally bribers Symonists Epicures more like to Sardanapalus or Heliogabolus then Peter or Paul must their succession in place to them to whom all other things they are most vnlike carie the Church of God on their sides your owne silence passing by the mention of all the successors to Gregorie the first by the space of a thousand yeares implies a confession that of those there are some at least degenerate from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles which if with any face you could denie you would haue saide as much in them praise with lesse truth as you haue done of the former but vntruely But I suppose you cannot be ignorant that your owne Doctor Genebrarde hath Chron. lib. 4. verse 10. marked about a fiftie Popes for the space almost of 150 yeares from Iohn the 8. to Leo. 9. as reuolters wholy from the vertue of their ancestors and saith they were Apostatici apostatici potius quam apostolici Apostaticall rather then Apostolicall yea he calleth them monstrous which also Platina witnesseth with a witnesse of three speciall ones among the 50. Benedict 9. Siluester 3. and Gregorie 6. whom he calleth tria teterrima monstra three most hideous monsters what might be said of Iohn the 8. otherwise Pope Ioan Iohn the 12. two other of the 50. of Gregorie 7. Alexander 3. Bâ—niface 8. Iohn 23. To shew how vnlike they were to the Martyrs their Predecessors in place you cannot be ignorant and therefore you did warily to make no noise of these and the like least their very names might staine their succession and repeale that glory which you thought to get by the fame of Gregorie your Kalendar Saint touching whom whether he coyned any new religion or not or whether hee kept that which by continuall succession descended from Saint Peter how should we more certainly know then by enquiring into that religion which Saint Peter and Saint Paul taught and that not following vncertaine tradition which hath proued the Author of deceiuable fables but the certaine 2 Pet. 1. 1â— 19. line of holy scripture which leades vs to Christ himselfe who onely knew the minde of his father and hath in his written word reuealed it to his Church For as Ciprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat Ad Pompei contr epist Steph error humanus If we returne to the head and beginning of diuine tradition that is the doctrine which God himselfe deliuered humane error is put downe which that auncient Father by an excellent similitude setteth out thus Si canalis quae c. If the conduit pipe which before did runne in aboundance do suddenlie fatle do not men vse to goe to the fountaine there to know the reason why it faileth c. Quod nunc facere opportot Dei sacerdotes c. which saith he the Priests of God keeping Gods commandements must now do that if the truth haue wauered or failed in auie thing we maie returne to the originall of our Lord and to the tradition of the Gospel and of the Apostles that thence maie arise the reason of our doing from whence the order originall did first spring Which way to trie the truth so long as you do so diligently shun and take such paines to bring all religion to the touch of mans vncertaine authority what do you else but bewray a fearefull and guiltie conscience that dare not stand to the euidence of Gods word but in a suite of life and death saluation and damnation do willingly suffer the true Charters of diuine record to be lost or at least raked vp in the dust and bring in old men that can say nothing but by heare-say nay rather yong men now to tell what they haue heard off sometime said by old men vppon their onely bare heare-say So might the Iewes haue taken the law from the Scribes and Pharisees mouthes and haue learned to loue their friends hate their enemies with Matth. 6. 43. 2 Kings 22. 8. other Pharisaicall lessons and let the law of Moses lie in the dust as it had done
before in the daies of Helkias the Priest But chuse you whether you will cease your wrangling about mens names or not and be it knowen to you that we will search the scriptures in which alone wee beleeue to Iohn 5. 39. haue eternall life and which only beare vnto vs infallible witnes of Christ and of all true Religion necessarie to saluation How beit were your succession any thing worth to the finding out of truth when or how shall it be agreed whether Liuus or Clemens succeeded Peter whether Cletus and Anacletus be one man or if they be two which is the first or which must be put out of the succession or whether Clemens be before them or either of them for these vncertainties are in the highest roundes of this your ladder of succession Tell vs whether Pope Ioaue haue not made a foule cracke in your succession or what we shall make of your 30. Schismes whereof the twentie ninth continued the space of 50 yeares together first with two Popes at once then with three vntil the Councell of Constance remoued them all three and set vp Martin 5. since your Church representatiue in the councel iudged against them al three may we not rightly iudge that your succesion was quite broken off and none of these 3 nor they to whom they succeeded during that Schisme were true successors of Peter How euer it be make your succession as strong as you can Except Cum successione Episcopatus With the succession of the Chaire they haue receiued Veritatis charisma certū the vndoubted Iren lib. 4. cap. 43. gift of truth we make no reckoning of it As for your Austen who you say conuerted vs Englishmen it is well knowen that this Iland had receiued the faith long before Austen was borne in the daies of Kinge Lucius and euen at that time had true religion in better order in more sincerity then Austen himself except there were any more sincerity in his doctrine then in his superstitious and vaineglorious ceremonies vpon which together with your cloysters and dennes God in his mercie hath brought the confusion of Babel as appeareth this day and shall do we trust more and more PAPIST Out of this reason maie one quicklie learne that all points of our religiō be most true as praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons the Real presence Confession of sinnes though oach one knowe not howe to defende them nor perceiue vpon what groundes they stand for seeing we haue now prooued that our Church is the true Church of Christ consequently we are to beleeue that which it teacheth because she cannot erre in matters of faith for if shee could then might we as well be damned being members of the true Church of Christ as members of the false and not for a wicked life but for a wrong beleefe which cannot be and to free vs from all such doubtes Saint Paul affirmeth that the Church is the piller and ground of truth This ought to be a great comfort to all 1 Tim. 3. 15. vnlearned Catholikes that cannot enter into the deepe misteries of Christian religion PROTESTANT No doubt you must needs proue a forcible Reasoner that out of one sophisticall Syllogisme full of equiuocation as hath beene shewed from a reason pretended of the continuance of the Church inuifible reputation as you say for the space of 1600. yeares which by your owne confession will serue the Iewish synagogue as well as your supposed Church yet as if you had stricken the matter dead presume out of hand that all is proued You haue now proued that your Church is the true Church of Christ They that will bee caried away with such proofes it skils not greatly of what Church they be They surely dote vpon the Romish harlot and follow her for blinde loue and not for reason But let vs further examine how forcibly you build vpon this sandie foundation If your Church be the true Church then all must be beleeued that she teacheth And therefore praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons c. For she cannot erre in matters of faith were not the Churches of Galathia true Churches Is not the bringing in of Circumcision to be ioyned with faith in Christ as necessary to Gal. 1. 6. saluation an error in matter of faith Did not the Galathians erre in that point in so much that the Apostle reproues them as those that had remoued to another Gospell If the members of a true church ought to beleeue all that the church teacheth them who could blame the Galathians in this point yet Paul spares not to call them foolish Againe were not the Apostles the true Church yet did they erre euen after Christs resurrection not onely before the receiuing of the holy Ghost but after also and that in matter of faith before the holy Ghost came downe they Act. 1. 6. dreamed of restoring the externall kingdome of Israel and that by Christ After they had receiued the holy Ghost Act. 10. 14. Peter iudged some meates vncleane and was doubtfull of going into the vncircumcised and eating with them vntill he was better informed by an heauenly vision Neither was this error proper to him alone and yet had he bene Pastor of Pastors and the highest Bishop in the Church from whose lippes all truth was to be receiued how could the Church haue bene free from this error for as Gregory saith Epist lib. 6. epist 34. Si vnus Episcopus vocatur vniuersalis vniuersa Ecclesiacorruit Si vnus vniuersus cadit That is If one Bishop be called vniuersall the whole Church is ruinated if that one vniuersall do fall but common to all the rest of the Apostles as appeareth both in that he was called to an account before the Apostles Act. 11. 3. and the Church for entring in vnto Cornelius and alleaging his warrant both by vision and speciall oracle satisfied them so as they now first came to discerne that God vnto the Gentiles also had graunted repentance vnto life and Vers 18. therefore held their peace and glorified God and also in that when some came from Iames he withdrew himselfe from Gal. 2. 12. the Gentiles which he would not haue done if the true Church had not as then bene vnsetled in this point of faith That which befell vnto the Apostolike church may much more befall vnto the church of Rome as the like hath done vnto many other churches and therefore it follows not because the church of Rome was once the true church that either it cannot erre or must needs continue the true church still Such braggers as you were those Rabbies that conspired against Ieremie presuming as you do that the law should not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor Ier. 18. v. 18. the word from the Prophets that is that the church could not erre but the Lord by Ezechiel tels them that build vpō that false principle that when they shall come to
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
is the heauenlie sacrament which trulie representeth Christs flesh is called Christs bodie but improperlie wherefore it is called after the sort thereof but not in truth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie So as the meaning is It is called the bodie of Christ that is it signifieth And in a word because you bite so hard vpon the word Sacrifice wheresoeuer you finde it in Augustine or others let Augustine himselfe interprete what force that word hath how it is to be taken A true sacrifice saith he is euerie worke which is done that by a holie felowship we may cleaue fast to God De Ciu. Del. lib. 10. cap. 6. to wit referred to that end of good by which we maie truelie be blessed Which in the end of that chapter he applieth to the sacrament This is the sacrifice of Christians we being manie are one bodie in Christ vvhich also the Church in the sacrament of the Altar knovven to the faithfull doth frequentlie obserue Thus haue you no helpe from Augustine for your grosse opinion of carnall presence and for your Popish sacrifice and consequently by your owne forcible reason from none of the rest of the Fathers for no reason as you say can moue vsto thinke that he did in so important a matter dissent from all others of his time Now therefore out of the examination of those fewe questions let all such as be desirous of truth and salution of their soules discerne what helpe you haue from venerable antiquitie for your Popish and Romish Superstition PAPIST The third reason Sundrie points of our Religion generallie mislâ—ked by our adnâ—rsartes befor all that true according to their owne principles and consequentlie agreeable to sacred Scripture this though it seeme strange yet is iâ— thus plainlie proued In their communion booke authorised by act of Parliament we finde prescribed hovv the sicke person ought to make a speciall confession of his sins to the In the visitation of the sicke special confession Priest and it vvill not helpe them to saie that they are not bound to confesse al thir sins but such only as do trouble their coÌ„science for vvhat if all that come to minde do trouble them as vve thinke all should seing all according to their doctrine be mortall and damnable And besides gladlie vvould I knovv that text of Scripture vvhich commandeth the confession of some sinnes and not of all let them name the place Secondlie vve find there also prescribed how after confession the Priest must absolue him in this maner Our Lord Iesus Christ c. and by his authoritie committed to Absolution from sinnes me I absolue thee from all thy sinnes In the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost What vvords for the Priests absolution can be wished more plaine being the same in English vvhich in Latine be vsed in the Catholike Church PROTESTANT No doubt you were put to your shifts when out of ProtestaÌ„t principles you would take in hand to proue the truth of Popish religion which either you do to spende some time in idle talke to no purpose or else you must needes ascribe the credit of truth to Protestant principles for thus your reason must be framed VVhatsoeuer agreeth vvith the Protestant principles is true Sundry points of Popâ—sh religion agree vvith Protestant principles Therefore sundrâ—e points of Popish religion are true We thanke you for yeelding true witnes to the Protestant religion and yet we thanke you not much for sure it was against your will and was onely vpon some hope to countenance Poperie by the meanes Againe see another reason of your owne making for the truth of Protestant religion Sundrie points of our religion are true according to the ProtestaÌ„t principles and consequently agreeable to sacred scripture Bring your owne reason into forme will it not be this VVhatsoeuer is true according to Protestant principles is agreeable to sacred scriptures Sundrie points of Poperie are true according to Protestant principles Therefore they are agreeable to sacred scriptures We thanke you the second time for confessing so cleerly that the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scriptures And in kindnesse towards you for your double testimony so frankly affourded for the truth of Protestant religion wee are bounde to yeelde thus much vnto you that if any point of Poperie be true according to the principles of our religion then surely it is agreeable to sacred scriptures For surely all the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scripture as very ingeniously you haue confessed and I hope will not reuoke But indeede strange it were as out of a faint heart you confesse that any point of Popery should be true according to Protestant principles and therefore doubtles you are out of hope to proue any point of Poperie true by that meanes Let vs see then what be the points Our Communion booke vvould haue the sicke person visited to make a speciall confession of he feele his conscience troubled vvith any vveightie matter and vvhen he hath so done vvilleth the Priest to absolue him by the authoriâ—e of Christ What of all this Is this popish Eareshrift the booke saith a speciall not an auricular confession Secondly doth the booke set the sicke mans conscience vpon the rack to reueale to the Priest all his sinnes by number with the time place and manner as without which he cannot be saued you finde no such matter there onely the Church giues him aduise for the ease of his conscience to vnburthen himselfe by confession of those sinnes which at that time trouble his conscience Thirdly if no sinne at that time trouble his conscience he is not willed to make any confession and if any sinne hath troubled his conscience in former time if by confessing the same to any faithfull Christian brother he haue receiued comfort to the peace of his conscience before the Priest come to visite him he is not insnared with any scruple of conscience that except he confesse it to the Priest he cannot be forgiuen You obiect First what if all his sinnes that come to minde trouble his conscience as you thinke all shoulde seeing according to our doctrine all be mortall and damnable I answere what if they do not trouble his conscience then doth our booke require no confession at his hands wheras all must of necessity come to your Popish shrift whether their consciences be troubled or no. And by the way all men may see what peace of conscience Popery breeds that leaues men vnder the torture of an accusing conscience for all the sinnes they can remember and that euen in the howre of death The holy Apostle Saint Paul 1. Tim. 1. 13. remembreth that in former time he had beene a blasphemer a persecutor and oppressor yet was not his conscience troubled at this time for he addeth presently that hee was receiued to mercie It could not be that he should apprehend and applie to
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
scriptures indeede and the Protestants that do othervvise be destitute of the true sense of the vvord of God PROTESTANT The summe of this Argument is this Whatsoeuer meanes wee haue to knowe the Canonitall Scriptures the same we haue to know the true sense of them For there is equali danger in wrong expounding Scriptures and refusing them But there is no meanes to know the Canonicall Scriptures but by â—â—e authoritie of the Church For no man can prooue against Luther that Saint Iames his Epistle is Canonicall but by the authoritie of the Church and Austen Jaith I would not beleeue c. Therefore there is no meanes to know the true sense of the scriptures but by the anthority of the Church First then as before hath bin noted Augustine was much uerseene in his bookes De Doctr. Christ among so many meanes as he theresets downe to search find out the true sense of Scriptures to forget the authority of the Church which you will now haue to be the onely meanes Secondly in a sense it is true that the authority of Gods Church is a meanes to know both the Canonicall Scripture and the true sense thereof The Church of God doth neither giue being or authority to the Scriptures nor sense to the Scriptures but being taught of God in both giues witnesse of both to her owne children and euen to those that are without and by the ministrie and meanes of her testimonie they to whom the Scriptures were before vnknown begin to receiue them and they that haue receiued them attaine to the sense of them by that gift of interpretation which God hath giuen to his Church yet doth not Gods true Church set vp her authority in mens consciences to binde them without a better Teacher and of greater authority to receiue any thing at her handes for Scripture or to rest in her interpretation of Scriptures without tryall As Philip hauing testified to Nathanael We haue founde him of whom Moses did write and the Prophnts Iesus the sonne of Ioseph when Nathanael made doubt because he was of Nazareth doth not inforce his owne authority but bids him come see so the Church testifying of the Canonical scriptures of the true sense of them bids all men come and see Ioh. 1. 46. that is out of the Scriptures inspired of God by the teaching of the spirit to know the maiestie and authority of them after they haue beleeued the scriptures to be the vndoubtted word of God in them to search the true meaning of theÌ„ as Augustine teacheth both as he is before alleaged and in the very booke by you quoted for shewing how the Manichees teach how the Church teacheth thus he writeth Whatthinke you we must iudge or do but to forsake theÌ„ who inuite Contr. epist Fun. cap. 14. vs to know things certaine and after coÌ„mand vs to beleeue thinges vncertaine the very right description of the Popish church And follow theÌ„ who inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to looke into that when we are waxen stronger in faith we may attaine to vnderstand that which we beleeue novv not men but God inwardly strengthning and enlightning our minde Wherby that former sentence of Augustine so commonly alleaged by the Papists receiues plaine interpretation Ego non crederem c. Euery word almost in the sentence hauing a speciall signification to shew that he onely acknowledgeth the churches testimony in the beginning of his conuersion to haue beene the meanes to moue him to thinke well of the scriptures Ego that is I being a Manichee hauing not yet searched the scriptures nor hauing knowen the maiesty of the Gospell Non crederâ—m that is would not haue giuen any regard vnto nor haue beene tractable to learne as the whole booke De vtilit ate credends ad Honor aâ—uÌ„ doth shew namely cap. 9. For faith he true religion vnlesse those things De vtil creden ad ionorat cap. 15. be beleeued which if a man behaue himselfe well and be worthie he may aftervvard attaine to vnderstand vvithout some great commande of authoritie can by no meanes bee vvell entred into For as he saieth in the same booke betweene mans foolishnes and the most sincere truth of God Mans vvisedome is set as a middle thing for a vvise man is to follovve God a foolissh man is to follovv a vvise man yet as Augustine there sayeth not to put his trust in men but onely in the sonne of God the sincere eternall vnchangeable wisdome of God whereunto onely we ought to sticke who for our sakes namely to become our Teacher vouch safed to take vpon him mans nature Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 5. This most sincere wisedome Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 4. he settech in the first ranke though hauing to deale with a Manichee hee saieth he will omit to speake of it as that which holdes him without any doubting in the bosome of the Catholike church whereas in all his other motiues hee onely meaneth to shew that euen only in theÌ„ he hath better hould then the Manichees haue for their heresie For otherwise he preferreth the vndoubted proofes of scripture before the authority of the catholike Church If peraduenture saith he you can finde any thing in the Gospell verie plaine for Manichees Apostleship you shall vveaken vnto me the authoritie of the Catholikes and before if so manifest truth be shovved that Cap. 4. it cannot come into doubt it ought to bee preferred before all those things by vvhich I am held in the Catholike church 3. Catholice Ecclesiae meanes hee the Catholike church of all times or rather the Catholike church of the first times who hauing receiued the Scriptures by Apostolicall testimonie deliuered them to their posterity At whose hand Augustine receiued them not vpon their onely testimony but vpon the records of the Catholike Church of the first times which the church in his time had to shewe for the Canonicall and vndoubted Scriptures What his meaning is in this behalfe let Augustine himselfe declare Beleeue saith he this booke to be Matthewes which from that time wherein Matthew himselfe liued in the flesh by course of Contr. Faustrâ— Manich. lib. 28. cap. 2. Lib. 33. cap. 9 time not interrupted the Church through certaine succession of continuance hath brought along vnto this time And against the same heretick hee vseth a very apt comparison to this purpose there haue many bookes come forth vnder the name and title of secular authors which were neuer theirs as for example many bookes vnder the name of Hippocrates that were not his How are these descried Therefore are they refused saith Augustine because either they did not agree to those writings which were manifestly knowen to be theirs or were not acknowledged in the time wherein they wrote nor were commended to posteritie by themselues or those that were most familiar with them and specially of Hippocrates his bastard
also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
Originals and binde to a corrupt translation as Authonâ—â—cal You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching and teaching you haue them not The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such as may stand with your Popish practise which is the priuie rule of your interpretation and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof and the rule of faith which Augustine so much commendeth you neither haue nor wil hade nor suffer others to haue if you may let it and so your interpretation is priuate as either being the Popes or proceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen partly in a false Church which the longer it continueth the worse You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side when indeede they are against you and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others nor their true sense and interpretation but onely of your owne making your Popish faith though it be olde in it selfe yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers our Sauiour Christ the Apostles and Prophets the daies thereof haue been but few and euill and therefore it is not the olde Catholike Apostolike faith whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed PAPIST A short Addition Beleeue assuredly and holde for certaine that no Heretike and Schismatike that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe how great almes so-euer hee giue yea or shed his bloud for Christes name can possibly be saued For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause deceiuing the simple suffer much but where no true faith is there is no iustice because the iust liueth by faith so it is also of Schismatikes because where charitie is not no iustice can be there which of they had they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie may goe to heauen though they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor be members of his true Church For as most certaine it is that none which beleeue not all the articles of the Catholike faith can be saued though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well for without faith it is as Paul saith vnpossible to please God And S. Athanasius telleth vs that whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate without doubt he shall perish for euer so no lesse certaine it is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to that faith and so abstaine from communicating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments we cannot be saued For hee that shall denie Christ before men Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen as himselfe saith And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience according to the law when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist as himselfe willeth vs And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ of an inward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes and keepe their conscience to themselues This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much and feare persecution But let such thinke of this saying of our Sauiour Feare ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soule but rather feare him that can destroy both body soule into hel and let them imitate noble Eleazarus Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death then to dissemble in the cause of religion and do that with the scandal of others which of it selfe was no sinne at all PROTESTANT Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is oneâ—â— thus much Formissimè tene nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum siue schismaticum in nomine patris filij spiritus sancti baptizatum si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit nullatenus posse saluari that is Firmly beleeue by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost how great almes soeuer he do yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church by no meanes can be saued This sentence though not word for word yet in effect you rehearse but you ad therunto more words whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustines words ended The rest is a truth but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued Secondly that if men beleeue neuer so well yet if they liue not according to the faith and so absteine from communicating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they cannot be saued and so proceede on to condemne those that outwardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes and keepe their consciences to themselues All which may with no gaine to you be yeelded it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood to witte Catholike Church Catholike Faith and Heretikes or Schismatikes For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church nor the Popish Faith the Catholike Faith nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie or do depart from Popish communion then what gaine you by this whole addition But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke that no sooner they heare Catholike Church or Catholike Faith but by and by they thinke of Popish Church and Popish Faith betweene which there is no lesse difference then betweene light and darknes And againe when they heare of Herâ—tikes they presently
But we may not disobey them Therefore c. How prooue you that we may not disobey them Thus. If he that heareth not the Church be to be taken as an heathen or publican then may we not disobey generall Councels But he that heareth not the Church is to be taken as an heathen or publican Therefore we may not disobey generall Councels The Proposition of this second syllogisme standing in greatest neede of proofe you leaue it altogether vnprooued and so after your maner you begge that alwaies which is in question For in the words of Scripture by you abused you should haue prooued First that the word Heare is to be extended to all matters generally Secondly that by the Church are meant onely generall Councels Thirdly that the Church is to be heard howsoeuer it iudge which points except you prooue the consequence inferred in the Proposition will not follow First therefore the matter heere referred to the Church is not decision of doctrines but censure of scandals as Chrysostome vpon the place obserueth Now will it follow He that obeyeth not the Churches censure in matter of scandall giuen to his brother is to be taken as an heathen or publican Therefore Councels may not be disobeyed whatsoeuer they teach in matter of faith and doctrine Secondly must we expect a generall Councel for redresse of euery scandall committed against a brother by him that will not be brought to amendment by more priuate admonition Did not the Church of Corinth censure the scandall of the incestuous person Had not the Church of 1. Cor. 5. 2. Thes 3. 14. Thessalonica power to censure the inordinate walkers And hath not euery particular Church power to censure all scandals within themselues By your reason then wee may not disobey particular Churches in their derisions of Doctrine neither can they erre any more then generall Councels which your selues will not yeeld and the errours of the Church of Corinth doe gaine say To shew the insufficiencie of your proofe I will set by it this argument Hee that will not heare a particular Church censuring in matter of scandall is to be helde as an heathen or publican Therefore wee may not disobey a particular Church in matter of doctrine The first part you cannot denie the consequent I knowe you will not yeeld such is the force of your forcible reason Thirdly doth not the place expresly limit the censure of the Church whereunto obedience must be giuen First it is supposed in the text that a brother hath trespassed against a brother Secondly that it cannot be denied but he hath done so Thirdly that his fault is tolde him as alone and with two or three witnesses so by the Church Lastly that the party offending conuict of the offence and iustly censured by the Church obeyeth not But if either the brother had not trespassed or had not beene conuicted and so the Church had vniustly censured him or if the Church had corruptly imposed any thing vpon him either to be beleeued or to be done was he then not hearing to be taken as a publican or an heathen Our Sauiour Christ saith not so For this had beene to giue tyrannicall power ouer mens soules and consciences into the hands of the Church which our Sauiour neuer did Now if wee should graunt you that hearing of the Church in this place might be extended to matter of Doctrine if by like proportion you suppose that the determination of the Church is agreeable to the Scriptures and that the Church by the Scriptures approoueth their determination to the consciences of the faithfull as we then graunt you that we may not disobey so this will helpe your cause nothing at all who will not submit the sentence of generall Councels to be tried by the Scriptures but maketh it superior to the Scriptures and consequently Lord ouer mens consciences which as the Apostle scrbiddeth to 1. Pet. 5. 1. the elders of the Church in all seuerall Churches so doth he also to the elders assembled in agenerall Councell For in the Councell of the Apostles at Ierusalem by the mouth of Iames both Peter and the rest lay for the foundation of their Act. 15. 15. sentence the words of Scripture To thu agree the wordes of the Prophets Your second reason is Then should also â—ell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Let vs see this reason also in forme Hell gates preuaile against euerie one that may erre But hell gates preuaile not against the Church Therefore the Church may not erre First you conclude not the question Which is not whether the Church may erre but whether generall Councels may erre But neither are generall Councels so large as the onely visible Church being but speciall members assembled out of the whole whose errour may not be imputed no not to the whole visible Church neither is the visible Church the whole Church no not the whole militant Church and therefore although the gates of hell cannot preuaile against the Church yet they may preuaile against generall Councels Secondly the Church may erre and yet hell gates not preuaile against it For the Proposition of the former syllogisme containing your reason is not true The gates of hell doe not preuaile against euery one that erreth Peter erred both in matter of fact and in matter of faith His errors in matter of fact are knowen to be many and not denied by you His error in matter of faith was in iudging it vnlawfull to eate of things common yet did not the gates of hell Act. 10 14. preuaile against him Thirdly the gates of hell not preuailing against the whole militant Church may yet preuaile against the visible parts of this Church and in some age or ages It followeth not therefore that if the gates of hell preuaile against the visible Churches of some age that therefore they doe preuaile against the whole militant Church Where be the famous Churches of Achain of Galatia of Macedonia nay what a handfull is the remnant of the Church now in a corner of Europe principally knowen by the name of the Church to the large circuit of the Church both in the Apostles time and after spread ouer the whole world Will you say the gates of hell haue preuailed against the Church because they haue preuailed against some Churches so many so famous in some age or ages The Church of Christ may be more and lesse occumenicall and yet the Church of Christ still against which the gates of hell neither haue nor euer shall preuaile and yet may preuaile against the Churches of Achaia Galatia Macedonia and many others yea against the once famous Church of Rome as they haue done so that the faithfull citie may become an harlot Wherefore begin Isa 1. 21. once to be ashamed of this sophistrie The gates of hell cannot prenaile against the Church of Christ Therfore not against a generall Councell which is but some of the many churches of one