which they should haue thought on conceiuing things contrary to that which we haue receiued from the Scripture I may not bee silent For that were as much as in mee is to betray the Truth Yet my care shal bee to say no more heerein then I shall bee drawne necessarily to speake for the Truth and to remooue that which hath beene erroneously presumed by others For then is a man bound to maintayne the Truth when it is oppugned It troubled mee not a little I confesse that I am to deale with a Minister of the Church of England one that hath beene mine ancient Acquaintance of whom I had greater and better hopes But in Gods Cause all respects of Friendshippe and Acquaintance yea if it were of blood and kindred must giue place to the Truth Leuy sayde to his Father and to his Mother I haue not seene him neither knew hee his Brethren nor knewe his Children For they obserued thy Word and kept thy Commandement Deut. 33.9 And this is the way to do him good For I am not out of hope of reclaiming of him seeing hee hath promised that if the euidence bee cleare against him or if hee be conuicted per testes idoneos to haue erred he wil recall it The Scriptures the ancient Fathers and the Doctrine of the Church of England are testes idonei I shall deale freely and plainly For the ordering of the whole First after a briefe Introduction set downe for the better vnderstanding of the controuersie I will examine his extrauagant opinions concerning the respectiue decree of Predestination and after of falling away from Grace Last of all some particulers in his Booke This I doe not vndertake vpon any confidence that I conceiue in my selfe I know many in our Church more worthy and able then my selfe and I thanke God for them But as heeretofore I haue had experience of Gods mercy and found that the loue of the truth hath in other things enabled me to defend the Truth and helped me to know the Truth so I rest vpon the same helpe I seeke Gods Truth which will not fayle them that seeke and loue it And if any man of greater confidence in his wit and learning will enter vppon the Defence of the Appeale for I haue heard the whisperings I shall bee willing to spend the rest of mine old dayes in this for they cannot bee spent in a better seruice CHAP. 2. An Introduction for the better vnderstanding of the Controuersie following THE Church England was reformed by the helpe of our learned and Reuerend Bishops in the daies of King Edward the sixt and in the beginning of the Raigne of Queene Elizabeth They who then gaue that forme of reformation to our Church held consent in Doctrine with Peter Martyr and Martin Bucer being by authority appoynted Readers in the two Vniuersities and with other then liuing whom they iudged to bee of best learning and soundnesse in the reformed Churches And of the Ancients especially with St. Augustine And were carefull to hold this Vnity amongst themselues and with the reformed Churches For that these worthy Bishops who were in the first reformation had this respect vnto P. Martyr and M. Bucer it is apparent both because the Doctrine of our Church doth not differ from the Doctrine that these taught and because that worthy Arch-bishop Cranmer caused our Leiturgy to be Translated into Latin and craued the consent and iudgement of M. Bucer who gaue a full consent thereto as it appeareth in his workes Inter opera Anglicana And P. Martyr beeing likewise requested writeth in His epistles touching that matter his iudgement and consent of the gouernment and discipline of our Church This vniformity of Doctrine was held in our Church without disturbance as long as those worthy Bishops liued who were employed in the reformation For albeit the Puritans disquieted our Church about their conceiued Discipline yet they neuer mooued any quarrell against the Doctrine of our Church which is well to be obserued For if they had embraced any Doctrine which the Church of England denied they would assuredly haue quarrelled about that aswell as they did about the Discipline But it was then the open confession both of the Bishops and of the Puritanes that both parts embraced a mutuall consent in Doctrine onely the difference was in matter of inconformity Then hitherto there was no Puritane Doctrine knowne The first disturbers of this vniformity in doctrine were Barret and Baro in Cambridge and after them Thomson Barret and Baro beganne this breach in the time of that most reuerend Prelate Archbishop Whitgift Notwithstanding that these had attempted to disturbe the Doctrine of our Church yet was the vniformity of Doctrine still maintained For when our Church was disquieted by Barret and Baro the Bishops that then were in our Church examined the new Doctrine of these men and vtterly disliked and reiected it And in the poynt of Predestination confirmed that which they vnderstood to be the Doctrine of the Church of England against Barret and Baro who oppugned that doctrine This was fully declared by both the Archbishops Whitgift of Canterbury and Hutton of Yorke with the other Bishops and learned men of both Prouinces who repressed Barret and Baro refuted their doctrine and iustified the contrary as appeareth by that Booke which both the Archbishops then compiled The same Doctrine which the Bishops then maintained was at diuerse times after approued as in the Conference at Hampton Court as will be hereafter confirmed And againe it was confirmed in Ireland in the Articles of Religion in the time of our late Soueraigne Articulo 38. The Author of the Appeale pleadeth against the Articles of Lambeth and iustifieth the Doctrine of Barret Baro and Thomson auerring the same to be the Doctrine of the Church of England This hee doth not by naming of those men whose names he knew would bring no honour to this cause but by laying downe and iustifying their doctrines and suggesting that they who maintained the doctrines contained in the Articles of Lambeth are Caluinists and Puritans So that those Reuerend Archbishops Whitgift and Hutton with the Bishops of our Church who then liued are in his iudgement to be reiected as Puritans The question is whether of these two positions we must now receiue for the doctrines of our Church that which Barret Baro and Thomson would haue brought in which doctrines were then refuted and reiected by our Church Or that Doctrine which the Bishops of our Church maintained against these men which Doctrine hath beene since vpon diuerse occasions approued If there were no more to be sayd I dare put it to the Issue before any indifferent Iudges CHAP. 3. An examination of the respectiue pretended decree of Predestination THe Author of the Appeale vndertaking to maintaine the Doctrine of the Church of England refuteth that which hitherto hath bene taken for the Doctrine of our Church and maintaineth the doctrine of the Pelagians striuing to make that
to be vnderstood the Doctrine of our Church A bold attempt whether hee doth it through ignorance or open malice to trouble the Church with these doctrines which haue troubled so many Churches that himselfe knoweth best But that this he doth it is apparant by that which he hath written and will be made more apparant by that which must now be sayd in the necessary defence of the truth and of the doctrines of our Church The poysoned doctrines of the Pelagians were neuer well knowne before Saint Augustine discouered that daunger The summe is to pull downe the power of God and to set vp the power of Man This they attempted to do by defacing the grace of God And because that could not be done without controlling the Doctrine of Predestination this they haue likewise attempted Predestination is fashioned into a new mould by these men who haue made it not to depend vpon God but vppon Man That God himselfe and his high and holy purpose and will must depend vpon somewhat in man must expect mans Free will and merits by this meanes they saw that grace might easily be defaced So that the Question is whether that the fountaine of grace be in God or in Man For they take it from Gods good wil and purpose and place it in mans merits This is the wisedome of the Pelagians which the Author of the Appeale seemeth to embrace and as well as he can perswadeth others to doe so For first he laboreth to corrupt the doctrine of Predestination and then to deface the doctrine of Grace First against the doctrine of Predestination hee hath brought nothing but the olde and worne obiections of the Pelagians Finding no other he was glad to take them that he might seeme to say somwhat against Predestination Which obiections albeit Saint Augustine and others of the auncient Fathers haue answered and refuted long agoe yet that thing moueth not this man somewhat must be sayd to deceiue the simple that will be deceiued First I will examine one sentence of his Booke by which we may vnderstand his meaning in the poynt of Predestination The sentence is this Pag. 58. speaking of the 17 Article he sayth In all which passage there is not one word syllable or apex touching your absolute necessary determined irrespectiue irresistible in other places he addeth Fatall necessitating Decree of God to call saue and glorifie Saint Peter for instance infallibly without any consideration had or regard to his Faith Obedience Repentance and to condemne Iudas as necessarily without any respect had at all to his sinne This sayth hee is the priuate fancy of some particuler men The Author of the Appeale doth often charge some men with a Doctrine which no man did euer maintayne For I say he is not able to proue that any haue maintayned the Doctrine of predestination in those tearmes which hee proposeth Indeede Pelagius and his Followers and amongst them this Author haue made these obiections against the Doctrine of Predestination We vse not thâ—se tearmes we reiect them we neede them not we finde them not in Scripture we haue enough in Gods Word to maintayne this Doctrine Touching that which hee sayth of Iudas that some should teach that by the decree of God Iudas should be condemned without any respect to his sin I suppose it will be hard for him to finde any that teacheth so in those tearmes Caluin I suppose is the man hee meaneth But Caluin in many places sayth the contrary and confesseth that wicked men are damned iustly for their sinnes that Gods mercy appeareth in them that are saued and his iustice in other He saith indeed of the reprobate Principium ruinae damnationis esse in eo quod sunt à Deo derelicti which this Author will also confesse because he can say nothing against it But to open this point a little further It must be confessed that whilest some haue strayed too farre on the left hand touching the respectiue decree that God for respects in men hath predestinated them Others in zeale to correct this errour haue gone somewhat too farre on the right hand teaching that Predestination is a separation betweene men and men as they were found euen in the Masse of mankind vncorrupt before the Creation and the fall of Man It is true that this Counsell of God was before the Creation and Fall But here we seeke vpon what ground first presupposed this counsell of God proceeded Saint Augustine was cleere in this that Gods purpose of Predestination presupposed the fall of Mankind and the corrupt masse of mankinde in sinne And verily this opinion hath such firme grounds of Scripture that so farre as I can iudge are vnanswerable For the Apostle teacheth that Predestination and Election are in Christ. Ephes. 1.4 As he hath chosen vs in Christ before the foundations of the World and v. 5. Who hath predestinate vs to bee adopted through Iesus Christ in himselfe And verse 11. In whom wee were chosen when we were Predestinate Now if Predestination be in Christ it must be acknowledged that this counsell of God had respect to the corrupt masse of mankind For the benefite that we haue in Christ appeared not in the state of innocency Some haue answered that the Angels had that benefit of their standing in Christ. To this I say granting that the Angels had that blessing from Christ yet this is a thing without doubting and beyond all contradiction that the doctrine of Predestination as the Apostle teacheth it is not for Angels but only for men not for men in the state of innocency but for sinful men In declaring the purpose of Predestination the Lord saith I will haue mercy on whom I will haue mercy Then the counsell of Predestination is the counsell whereby God sheweth mercy where he will But mercy doth presuppose misery and a sinfull estate in man Againe the purpose of God is conducted to his end by such meanes as God hath set the Apostle hath opened that is by Predestination VocatioÌ„ IustificatioÌ„ to glorification that is to the intended end But vocatioÌ„ iustificatioÌ„ cannot be vnderstood of angels but of men not of men with out sin in the estate of innocency but of sinfull men For sinners are called to repentance sinners they must be that are iustified from their sins None are called to repentance and iustified from sin but sinners And it is also certaine that none are thus called and iustified but only they that are predestinated Therfore Predestination doth not looke vpon the masse of mankind vncorrupt innocent but vpon the masse corrupted These things are set in such euidences of the Scriptures that for my part I know not what can bee said to impeach them Vpon these grounds we must confesse that both Predestination reprobation do respect that sinful corrupted masse of mankind But between Predestination reprobation amongst many other this is one difference that all men for sinne haue
omnibus qui perseuerauerunt in agone certaminis Hunc splendorem nemo potest adipisci nisi qui perseuerauerit vsque in finem Abulensis followeth the same doctrine for he saith speaking of outward calling by preaching and of that conuersion which standeth in externall profession Dicuntur vocati quicunque per praedicationem conuersi sunt ad fidem et tamen non sunt omnes electi quia non perueniunt omnes ad vitam aeternam Nam licet quibusdam det deus gratiam conuersionis non dat eis gratiam perseuerandi in fide vel operibus fidei et ita pereunt Eligere autem est dare gratiam istam perseuerandi et perueniendi He saith many obtaine diuers graces by hearing the word preached amongst whom they that are elect receiue the grace of perseuering to the end but they that are not elect though they may attaine to many graces yet they may and doe fall away because this grace of perseuering to the end is proper and peculiar to the elect From the Schoolemen wee are to looke for no soundnesse in this point For it is a hard thing for them to speake of grace who haue it not Many of them speake of grace like meere naturall men They wanted neither wit nor learning but many of them wanted grace to speake of grace as the Iesuites for the most part doe at this day Therefore I passe them ouer and come to the time of Reformation In which time if I should produce the sentences of them that haue beene most learned and labourious in the reformed Churches it would bee a long worke and happily giue no great satisfaction to the Author of the Appeale and others whom I desire to satisfie For how can hee receiue satisfaction from the iudgement of late men that seemeth to scorne their verie names As for Caluin his name and doctrines are made odious but why I know not If hee hath written somethings amisse as who writing so much hath not slipped in many things yet a charitable construction would helpe in many things And admit hee hath some things which cannot bee excused yet if wee consider the ancient Fathers how often they haue slipped and erred wee might be more moderate in censuring of others In the Fathers we take that which they haue done well and the rest wee pardon for that which they haue done well And why may we not doe so with others And what greater pleasure can a man procure to the enemies of the truth then to speake euill and odiously of those men whose seruice God hath vsed and made them excellent instruments to make the truth knowne vnto vs Some take it for a signe of such as are looking towards Popery when they offer such a seruice to the Papists as to speake euill of them that haue beene the greatest enemies to Popery the greatest propagators of the truth but I censure none Then leauing other Churches wee come home to our owne Church We haue enough in the articles of Faith and Religion to confirme the same truth which hitherto wee have proued The Author of the Appeale hath gone wrong in two poynts First in the respectiue decree which either he hath deuised or taken from the Arminians Against this wee haue heretofore shewed that the 17. Article hath set forth the doctrine of Praedestination in a sound and wholesome manner that Gods calling followeth the purpose of God and dependeth vpon it that faith obedience and repentance follow the calling of God and depend vpon it but the calling of God doth not follow faith obedience and repentance nor dependeth vpon them So did the 17. Article teach against the new deuise of this man This I haue obserued before The second thing wherein this man wandreth is denying of perseuerance and scorning it as a Puritan doctrine I must heere againe recite the 17. Article And I would intreat any man that hath his eyes set right in his head to reade and consider the words the order and soundnesse of them and thâ—n let him iudge whether perseuerance vnto the end bee not soundly and roundly set downe and auerred in the Article The words are Predestination to life is the euerlasting purpose of God whereby before the foundation of the world he hath constantly decreed by his counsell secret to vs to deliuer from curse and damnation those whome hee hath chosen in Christ out of man-kinde to bring them by Christ to euerlasting saluation wherefore they which bee endued with such an excellent benefit of God be called according to Gods purpose by his spirit working in ane season They through grace obey the calling they be iustified freely they be made the sonnes of God by adoption they be made like to the image of his onely begotten sonne Iesus Christ they walke religiously in good workes and at length by Gods mercy attaine euerlasting felicity Thus farre the words of the Article Can any man in any words declare perseuerance more fully or plainly froÌ„ the beginning by the meanes to the end then here is done For what is perseuerance but as S. Peter saith a preseruation or keeping of the Saints by the power of God to saluation And how can it be better proued then to draw it from the purpose of God by predestination by Gods calling by iustification by the worke of Gods spirit by adoption by being fashioned like to the image of Christ by walking religiously in good workes and by this meanes to come to life euerlasting This is done in the Article And this is the true doctrine of perseuerance They who are called according to Gods purpose and iustified and sanctifiâ—d made the sonnes of God by adoption walke religiously in good workes and so at last attaine to euerlasting life are they who haue receiued the grace of perseuerance to the end thus doth that Article set forth this doctrine But our Authour saith before they come to this end they sinne And what then Gods calling is powerfull indeed according to his purpose But it was not the purpose of God in calling vs to make vs Angels or to set vs in such an estate wherein we should neuer sinne any more but to teach vs humility he suffereth vs to striue with sinne and teacheth vs to fight against sinne And if in this battell wee take a blow yet hee sustaineth our weaknesse and will haue vs to glory in nothing that is in our selues but in our infirmities And still in his mercy preserueth vs from falling backe from the faith and keepeth vs from presumptuous sinnes and from that sinne that is vnto death This perseuerance you will say is with great weaknesse It is true wee cannot glory in our perfections which are none The Pelagians and Arminians who glorie in themselues in the power of their wills cannot taste this doctrine But wee glory in God that through many and manifold imperfections and infirmities of ours bringeth vs by this grace vnto the end This worke to bring vs through many
in grace there is the power of God If they tell vs that grace may bee vtterly lost wee say it proceedeth from the purpose of God and is giuen to vs from the power of God His purpose is immutable his power who can resist They must ouer-reach the purpose of God and ouercome the power of God before they can vndoe this great worke which God with such wisedome purposeth and with such power performeth If it were in the wisedome of man to deuise it or in the power of man to performe it then might it be soone vndone but this worke is Gods and all men must giue God the glory who onely hath vndertaken this worke and onely is able to bring it to an end When God hath once manifested his will it is strange that the pride and ignorance of man should deuise wayes to bring that into questions and doubtes which God in his Scriptures hath euidently set downe But there must bee heresies that they which are approued may be knowne 1 Cor. 11.19 Now I thinke this long contention may bee brought to a short end If any of the Pelagians or Arminians or if all of them be able to proue that the grace of God by which wee are called and iustified and saued is nothing but a gentle or morall perswasion then the Pelagians haue ouercome vs But if this grace bee wrought in vs by the power of God then hath the truth ouercome the Pelagians and Arminians Now I come to take a view of some particuler escapes in his booke CHAP. 10. PAge 17. speaking of Saint Peters fall hee saith Christ prayed for Saint Peter that hee might not fall and Christ was euer heard in that he prayed for And a little after If he fell hee must needes fall either totally or finally for cedo sertium And againe auoyde it if you can you come vp and home to our Gagger that Saint Peters faith did not faile and so subscribe to Bellarmine Petro dominus impetrauit vt non posset cadere quod ad fidem attinet Thus writeth the Author FIrst this is granted that Saint Peter fell into a great sinne but euery fall into sinne prooueth not a failing in faith Christ prayed that his faith should not faile and hee was heard in that hee prayed for therefore this is true that his faith failed not If any Papist speake or write this truth consonant to the Scripture I take not that for Popery This Author saith that Christ prayed that Saint Peter might not fall and Christ was euer heard in that hee prayed for his conclusion should bee that Saint Peter did not fall Which because hee seeth to bee false hee would interpret it that hee fell not finally though hee fell totally But the ought to haue interpreted the wordes of the Scripture and not to make words of his owne and interpret them Hee doth strangely confound the thing whereof hee speaketh Where hee saith Christ prayed for Saint Peter that hee might not fail these bee his owne words they are without warrant against the euidence of the story For Saint Peter did fall into a great sinne But Christ knowing that hee should fall and giuing him warning thereof prayed that though hee fell yet his faith should not faile Hee is intangled with an idle and vnnecessary confusion as though the failing of Saint Peters faith and his falling into sinne were one and the same thing Distinguish these things that are confounded and then it is cleere that Saint Peter did fall into sinne and yet his faith failed not But saith hee hee fell either totally or finally for cedo tertium The ancient Fathers writing of the sinnes of the Saints giue to him his tertium which hee requireth For when they speake of the falles of the Saints they vse to note them by this word Lapsus which though wee in English ordinarily call a fall Yet it is a tertium in respect of a totall and finall fall and so saueth such a fall from beeing either totall or finall So whether wee call Lapsus a fall or a slipping we stand not vpon words the thing wee seeke is whether euery sinne in the regenerate cutteth off faith as Maister Thomson deuised and this man seconds him This they affirme and wee deny The iust man sinneth often but who did euer say that hee looseth his faith as often as hee sinneth For in the iust and regenerate man there are two men dwelling together the old and the new man and sin that is still dwelling is sometimes working This is manifested in diuers places of the Scripture as namely Romanes 7. In which Chapter whatsoeuer some say to the contrary the Apostle speaketh in the person of a regenerate man Saint Paul confesseth that sinne dwelleth in him that the good which hee would doe that hee doth not but the euill which hee would not doe that hee doth that hee delighteth in the Law of God after the inward man which words are sufficient to prooue against the Pelagians Arminians and Papists that hee speaketh in the person of a regenerate man for an vnregenerate man cannot truely vtter those words And yet hee confesseth that he seeth an other Law in his members bringing him to the captiuity of the law of sin Then it must be confessed that sin may dwell there where faith dwelleth This doctrine is contained in the Articles of faith and religion Article 9. in these wordes Although there is no condemnation to them that beleeue and are Baptized yet the Apostle doth confesse that concupiscence and lust hath of it selfe the nature of sinne In the same Article it is saide that this concupiscence deserueth Gods wrath and damnation So that wee must admit that sinne and faith may dwell together vntill wee come to an Angelicall state And therefore sinne in a regenerate man doth not make a cutting off of faith according to the new deuised cut Yet in this is our Author resolute that Saint Peter fell totally I answer that cannot be in the regenerate where there is repugnance and reluctation As long as the warre is maintained the flesh striuing against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh so long the fall is not totall neither can it bee when the spirit is still striuing and disallowing and recouering the hold againe And if this warre bee maintained there must needes bee the Spirit For the flesh doth not striue against the flesh and where the Spirit is there is faith And therefore as the Spirit is not totally lost in the regenerate though many times it may bee and is greeued so faith is not totally lost in them though they may fall into diuers sinnes by which sinnes the Spirit is greeued Saint Hilary compareth the booke of Psalmes to a bundell of keyes to open the lockes that is the difficult places of the Psalmes and of other Scriptures If the right key bee taken and rightly applyed it will open the locke The Author of the Appeale hath set a locke heere that
these words is that these speculations as he calleth them are not to be feared to breed danger The Church is quiet and without danger vntill some new doctrines be broached and contentions raised about the truth and then the hearts of many are disclosed and dangers grow These things that this Author hath moved in our Church are more apt to breed dangers then any thing that hath beene mooved since the time of Barret Baro and Thomson A desperate man may set an house on fire and say there is no danger yet the danger is not the lesse but the madnesse of the man is the more that cryes out there is no danger The ignorance of Gods word and truth therein contained is able not onely to breed danger but to cause destructions of Churches and states The Prophet complaineth that the people of the Iewes were destroyed and led into captivitie for want of knowledge Then the want of knowledge of God and of the holy doctrines of Gods word is a thing apta nata to throw states and Kingdomes into destruction And the true knowledge thereof is a thing apta nata to keepe states and people from destruction Pag. 42. he saith These classicall proiects consistoriall practises conventuall designes and propheticall speculations of the zealous brethrē in this land meaning Holland do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ayme at anarchy and popular confusion dangerous indeed to Prince and people He speaketh here of the Ministers of the Low-countryes between whom and vs in the matter of doctrine there hath beene a care of mutuall consent sought and by his late Maiestie graciously entertained and for the publicke good the desire thereof may be continued though this man should be offended For though the Church of England be the best Reformed Church yet is it not the onely Reformed Church And it might seeme no good providence in vs to stand so by our selues as to reiect and disdaine the consent of other Churches though they doe not agree with vs in the discipline It is observed by Eusebius that Polycrates and Irenaeus did both reprone Victor because for matters of ceremonies he was too much offended with other Churches which otherwise agreed with him in doctrine Irenaeus doth admonish him that the auncient Bishops of Rome before Victor did keepe vnitie consent with the Easterne Bishops though in ceremonies there was difference between them Omnes isticum in observantia variarent inter semetipsos et nobiscū semper pacifici fuerunt He saith there also that the dissonance in ceremonies did not breake the consonance in faith And why may not we doe the like to keepe the vnitie of faith with those Churches which doe not agree with vs in ceremonies if we seeke the peace of the Churches that professe the same doctrine Touching the point of their discipline I can witnesse that they are weary of it and would gladly be freed if they could When wee were to yeeld our consent to the Belgicke confession at Dort I made open protestation in the Synode that whereas in that confession there was inserted a strange conceit of the parity of Ministers to be instituted by Christ I declared our dissent vtterly in that point I shewed that by Christ a parity was never instituted in the Church that hee ordayned 12 Apostles and also 70 Disciples that the authority of the 12 was aboue the other that the Church preserved this order left by our Saviour And therefore when the extraordinary authority of the Apostles ceased yet their ordinary authority continued in Byshops who succeeded them who were by the Apostles themselues left in the government of the Church to ordaine Ministers and to see that they who were so ordeined should preach no other doctrine That in an inferior degree the Ministers that were governed by Byshops succeeded the 70. Disciples That this order hath beene maintained in the Church from the time of the Apostles And herein I appealed to the judgement of Antiquity and to the judgement of any learned man now living and craved herein to be satisfied if any man of learning could speake to the contrary My Lord of Salisbury is my witnesse and so are all the rest of our company who spake also in the same cause To this there was no answere made by any Whereupon we conceived that they yeelded to the truth of the protestation And somewhat I can say of mine owne knowledge For I had conference with divers of the best learned in that Synode I told them that the cause of all their troubles was this that they had not Byshops amongst them who by their authoritie might represse turbulent spirits that broached novelties Every man had libertie to speake or write what he list and as long as there were no Ecclesiasticall men in authoritie to represse and censure such contentious spirits their Church would never be without trouble Their answere was that they did much honour and reverence the good order and discipline of the Church of England with all their hearts would be glad to haue it established amongst them but that could not be hoped for in their state Their hope was that seing they could not doe what they desired God would be mercifull to them if they did what they could This was their answere which I thinke is enough to excuse them that they doe not openly ayme at anarchy and popular confusion The truth is they groane vnder that burthen and would be eased if they could This is well knowne to the rest of my Associates there Pag. 58. speaking of the 17. Article he saith there is not one word syllable or apex touching your absolute necessary determined irresistible irrespectiue Decree of God to call saue and glorifie S. Peter for instance without any consideration had or regard to his faith obedience and repentance and to condemne Iudas as necessarily without any respect had at all to his sinne this is a private fancy of some particular men Of this I haue spoken at large before I haue declared that these accusations which he hath here made against the doctrine of predestination were the accusations of the Pelagians against Saint Augustines doctrine Onely here I will answer to a particuler surmise that may happily fall into the thought of the Reader or of the Author of the Appeale himselfe Hee saith here that these things are not contained in the 17. Article and so after his manner of shifting he may say that hee deliuereth not heere his owne opinion but onely saith that these things are not contained in the Article To remoue this answer he must remember that in diuers places through his booke hee deliuereth the same with confidence not onely as his owne opinion but as the doctrine of our Church as page 30. Hee saith though not truely as hath beene proued before That the 16. Article was challenged as vnsound but was there defended maintained avowed auerred for true by the greatest Byshops and learnedest of our Diuines against that