sed in ipsoruÌ„ libris posita I maiiÌ„teine the Doctrine of the holy Fathers I haue their witnesses not vttered by Chaunce or by the waie but writen in their bokes Also to deny the Authoritie of the testymonie is one waie and is done sometymes boldly and iestingly As Concerning the Epistle of Athanasius to Felix and certaine other Epistles that be extant in his name A scarcrow saieth M. Iewel stuft with straw Iew. 332. and set vpright maie Seeme a far of to be A Man Euen so a forger of lies and fables prickt vp in the apparel of Auncient names maie seeme to the Ignorant An olde Catholike Father Againe The maner of his vtterance is childissh 133. and babling emptie of mater and ful of wordes without measure The substance of the whole is nothing els but flattering c. Sometymes againe couertly and courteously As The Decretal Epistle Iew. 264 that is abrode vnder the name of Iulius semeth to sauor of some corruption Lykewyse 212. This Exposition of Chrysostom is very strange 303. and agreeth with few others Againe Although this place of Chrysostome import not greatly as who should saie I would not care much to graunt al that he writeth Yet being wel shifted and considered it maie seeme very suspitions as nothing agreeing either with that went before or with that foloweth after but altogeather sauering of some corruption Furthermore though the person of the Father can not be denyed yet the Estimation of by in maie be hyndred As This Augustine whome M. Harding calleth Sainct Iew. 185 and some others the Apostle of England was not that Greate Learned Father S. Augustine c. but an Hypocrite a superstitious man Cruel Bloudie and proude aboue measure Againe He wrote to Rome for resolution of certaine questions c. so Childisshe so Rude that a man maie wel doubt Yet S. Gregorie answered them with out any such rusly kyng 310. whether Augustine were ruder or the people Item Touchinge Victor that wrote the storie of the Vandals he is neither scripture nor Councel nor Doctour nor writeth the Order or Practise of the Primitiue Churche Againe Vnto this superstition S. Hierome himself gaue greate Occasion many times both writing and speaking vnseemely of the state of Mariage Now to make this mater more likely Iew. 52. M. Iewel doth cunningly to number hym emong other that were gyltie As In this errour were diuers of the Old lerned Fathers Tertullian saieth I Allow not Mariage Origine saieth No man can offer the continual sacrifice vnlesse he be a Virgin S. Hierome saieth It is not good to touche a woman Therefore it ys il to touche a woman Vpon occasion of which errour the people sometymes forbare the Churches where Martyrs were buried To conclude there is a certaine figure of Replyinge when in graunting vnto some matter you secretely take it awaie againe As I maye not disgrace the credite of this storie Iew. 136. albeit in Sozomenus and Nicephorus of bothe whome the same is recorded there be sundrie thinges that maie be wel filed By these helpes then A yong Diuine shal meetly wel be furnisshed to keepe his tongue occupied withal least a suddaine silence should cast him into a Confusion For Old Councels TOuchinge the Authoritie of Councels because thei seeme often tymes to vary Iew. 124 Gelasius thought it best to take vp the mater thus In gestis Conciliorum c. VVhen so euer Contrarietie of senteÌ„ce Dist 50. Domi. sancto ys found in the Actes of Councels Let the sentence of that Councel be taken that hath the elder and better Authoritie For Prouincial Councels against the General GOD hath oftentymes restored his Churche Iew. 〈◊〉 and reformed Abuses and Heresies by particular conference within seueral Realmes and CouÌ„tries As we see by these priuate Councels holden at Carthage vnder S. Cypriane At Neocesaria in Pontus At Ancyra in Galatia And by other like without ani consent of a General Councel So likewise saieth S. Ambrose against Secundus and Palladius The Bishopes of the East parte and so the Bishopes of y e weast haue euer vsed seuerally to assemble themselues together as occasion was offered Not in contempt of the whole world And to reform their churches by themselues without trobling of the whole world Si prouocandum putauerint c. If they thinke it needeful to appeale from their owne Bishopes Iew. 235 Conc. Aphric cap. 6. Let them not Appeale but only vnto Councels to be holden within the countrie of Aphrica Against Councels TIb being Emperour when he heard of the wonderful workes y t were wrought by Christ in Iurie Iew. 18. thought therefore he was a God and promoted A Bil vnto the Councel that Christ might be proclamed and takeÌ„ for a God But the Councel was otherwise bent and would alow him for no God Tertullian laugeth at their folie his wordes be these In Apolog Apud vos de humano arbitrio Diuinitas pensitatur c. Emong you the diuinitie and state of God is weighed by mans Iudgment Except God please man God emong you shal be no God Now therefore man must be Good and fauorable vnto his God The Like folie seemeth to be in them that thinke Gods Trueth to be no trueth onlesse the consent of a Councel allow it for trueth At this might be true if the Holyghost had not promised vnto the Church to cary with it for euer and to instruct it Againe Gods Trueth is trueth in it selfe yet vnto vs it is not knowen but by meanes Now emong those meanes which is the most worthie The text of the Scripture which except some body tel me I shal not know in what estimation to haue it y e repor of a few men of our owne parishe or Countrie Or y â— determinatioÌ„ coÌ„sent of a general or prouincial CouÌ„cel I should thinke y t seing we come to faith by meanes of meÌ„ whoÌ„ we credite it were not amisse to harkeÌ„ Chiefly after y e voice of a general CouÌ„cel where As greate authoritie as worthie of credite is represented as maie be possiblie found in al the world But M. Iewel is afeard oâ— a folie and like a wyse man and such as worketh surely he careth for none but foâ— God him selfe and Let men tel hym whaâ— they list he hangeth not vpon the Authoritie of any of them al Or of al together receuing of Gods owne mouth I trow immediatly that which confirmeth hym in his faith and religion Iew. 207. Cicero saieth very wel of hymself Nihil nobis opus erat lege de quibus nihil esset actum legibus To restore me from exile I needed no Lawe against whom there was nothing done by lawe Yf the Saxon Lyke one waie and the Palsgraue an other maie both defend themâ—elfs by these ExaÌ„ples and contemne what so euer Authoritie in Christendome Iosue ca. 24. So maie we likewise
the whole shal be disgraced because of those base thinges and Persons Besyde this a confessed Trueth is not to be estemed if it were either but once Or without cumpanie Or done at midnight To be shorte no Musitian shal be alowed because he is a Piper and no maker of verses neuer so good because he is a Poete And so the conclusion will be that nothing almoste shal be brought so worthy and euident but M. Iewel by his arte and policie wil make it obscure and simple If this be tolerable theÌ„ is D. Harding answered but if this be vnreasonable then hath not M. Iewell vsed a necessarie point of discretion Or modestie Of M. Iewels wrangling with D. Harding CAP. 6. THis whiche already I haue specified is to muche for a sober man to vse but this yet is not all that M. Iewel abuseth himselfe in againste D. Harding For byside peruerting or defacing of his Authorities he wrangleth also very contentiously with him And that not after a general sense only or meaninge of this worde but after a Singular proper fasshion For to speake in general Al the deprauing of D. Hardings Argumentes al the disgracing of his witnesse al the turning and shifting from one pointe and state of the question to an other which as I haue shewed M. Iewel vseth in the first foure articles all this I say may wel goe vnder the name of contention and quareling and in this sense the whole Replie is stuffed therewithall But in this place I note that singular kind of coÌ„teÌ„tiousnes by force of which any man driueth his aduersary to prouing of that which is either so possible that a thousand experiencies declare it either so credible that they them selues which aske for profe of it do openly and plainly confesse that they doe not deny it As in three or fower Examples VVhat if foure or fiue sayeth D. Harding of sundrie houses in a sicknes tyme being at the point of death in one Parisshe require to haue theyr rightes er they departe This case is not only possible by course of time but also common through infection of coÌ„tagious aiers But yet M. Iew. replieth What if no man happen to be sicke Then hath M Harding loste a good Argument But what if some happen to be sicke Then haue you M. Iewell found a Rude Obiection For of the two which is more possible To haue in a plage tyme foure or fiue Sycke Or to haue a tyme of Sycknes and none at all Sycke in it For of a tyme of Sycknes D. Hardinge dyd speake And if you will put A what if againste the tyme it selfe and suppose that there is no plage at all as this I graunt is possible so is by lyke Reason the other also Neither can you by putting your case so distroie the contrarie supposition that you might seeme to make it frustrate and voide Or disapointe thereby your Aduersaries purpose What if foure or fyue Principall Protestantes should be connerted by Reading the Bookes of Catholykes could not they vtter many secrete Deuises of yours for Open professing of whiche you lacke but a better world Yea but saie you againe what if suche wayes be taken for lettinge of Catholyke Bookes to come into the Realme that by Readinge of them none shall see what is Answered In deede you haue put me a case Iew. 3â— whiche is lykely inough and I could sone Answer vnto it that it is a hard Case also to Prouoke and Challenge And bid men speak make as though we should haue coÌ„mendation for our freenes And at y t very beginning to let theÌ„ y t wuld and should or reade or heare what we say But yet what were this to y â— answer of my question For it is possible inough that although you make the serche neuer so diligent yet some wise men of your owne side wil be desirous to vnderstaÌ„d our answers not be hastie to condeÌ„ne vs before iudgemeÌ„t Therfore wheÌ„ a likely or possible case is put to make a cleane coÌ„trary vnto it as though it were theÌ„ fully refelled what other thing is it but to fight vpon anger not for truth And to procure troble only to y e aduersary and not to manifest and open your owne doctrine Of what affectioÌ„ humor shal I say it cuÌ„meth y â— you dare permit y e historie which Amphilochius writeth of S. Basile to be true Iew. 91. yet wil not be ruled by it Doth not this proue y â— you haue a sprite of coÌ„tention within you and that you shift to make exceptions against the Trueth Iew. 89. That you mislike not daily preaching yet y â— you reproue D. Harding for saieing y â— in Antioche y e scripturs were dayly expouÌ„ded preached doth it not argue a conteÌ„tioâ—s stomake for suppose y t it were not true yet no harm cuÌ„ming therof vnto y e reader what neede was there of a special and solemne refelling of it No dout but if you were disposed M. Iew. you could quickly fynd it owt that dayly exposition of the scripture might be in Antioche and yet y e coÌ„mon people be called thereunto but once a weeke as S. Chrysostome saieth For it might be throughowt the Churches of Antioche by course and in that course the sermon might be one daye in S. Chrysostomes church Also there might be dayly expounding of the scriptures to y e Clergie though not to the people And the Proposition conteyning in it nothing against good maners or truth of doctrine a quiet man in so much matter byside requiring in deede a ful Answer would not haue troubled hymselfe with this question When you saie in an other place that Iew. 16â— It is neither denied of you nor any part of your quaestion that sundrie nations in Asia the lesse vnderstoode not the Greeke and yet notwithstandinge is not M. Harding hable to proue it with al his Gheasses doe ye not signifie by these wordes that your good wil is not plainely and peaceablie to declare the Trueth of your doctrine but your Stomake is against y e person of your aduersarie and that ye seeke to contrarie his saieinges When you saye Verely if a man by waie of contention would saie the Licaonical tongue was a corruptioÌ„ or difference of the Greeke tongue not a seueral tongue of it selfe M. Har. should haue much a doe Iew. 164 to proue the contrarie And in saieing so wheÌ„ yourselfe by by doe contrarie D. Har. therein is it not straitewaies manifest y t you folow the waye of contention More might be brought against you M. Iew. in this kinde but if by these few Examples it be perceiued that you haue wrangled and striued where no cause was offered I trust that although yourself be so affected y t you wil neuer submit yourselfe And yeld to the Catholike and Romane Church yet other which loue trueth and Sinceritie wil take heede how they commit the
Gloriouse caÌ„ not be fouÌ„d neither in Churches nor Chappels nor in secret Oratories nor in Priuate howses in Towne or Citie but must be sought out in some Petie parish in the couÌ„trie and that by coniecture only To this effect then cometh the first article M. Iewel dalieth stil y t D. Harding she weth not any Priuate Masse that is by his interpretatioÌ„ where any Priest SAID masse ORDINARILI in OPEN CHVRCH and receaued alone D. Harding proueth Priuate Masse that is to say single Communion or Sole receauing Of M. Iewels mening no purpose foloweth For wheÌ„ it is graunted for example that we are not able to proue against him with all those Circumstances what is his cause the better for it Of D. Hardinges conclusion this commoditie groweth that sole receauing is allowable by the crample and Testimonies of the Primatiue Church Ergo it standeth well with Christes institution Frome hencefoorth therefore let no Heretike crake of Christs institution as though that could not admit Sole receauing So shall the Church haue some peace and the Catholikes be quieted in this sure truth that Sole Receauing is not against Christes institution This ground now and verity standing let M. Iewel if he dare come visiblie furth and shew an open face and intent without all dubling And then shall it be playnly perceaued whether he must yelde and subscribe or no. Here for example are six questions Whether a sicke maÌ„ hauing no penance to fulfill may receaue alone at his departing Whether a sicke man whiche is not yet reconciled but tarieth in his penance may receaue alone at the point of his death Whether a sicke man being not in daunger of death may receaue alone Whether a man in good health and good lyfe may receaue alone Whether a Priest not celebrating may receaue alone Whether a Priest at Masse may receaue alone Betwixt these sixe eche of them towardes an other there is some difference and therefore they make two seueral questions The truth which is confessed on both sides is That Christes institution doth stand with Sole Receauing in generall For he which is put from the Communion and lyeth at the pointe of death maye receaue alone euen by Master Iewels confession which yet is impossible to be true if Sole Receauing were absolutely againste Christes Institution Therefore in what other speciall kinde of Sole Receauing his Institution is violated therein muste of right be the question And therein let M. Iewel ioyne if he thinke hym selfe able with the Catholike As whether a sicke man beinge not put from the Communion for some faulte of his maye at the pointe of death receaue alone or no and so furth in any of the six foresayed questions Now when it shall be put furth in one speciall case if he shall then fetche his vagaries about and run ouer his Common Places That Christes Institution is to be obserued That the Primitiue Church had a Communion and proue it by sundrie wais Out of holy Fathers Out of M. Hardinges owne Doctors as he will terme them and Out of the very Masse boke it selfe c Let it be vnderstanded that if he speake so in generall and applieth it not to the speciall case proponed he falleth within daunger of his owne sentence Vanitas vanitatum Iew. 16. And that it is a greate token of idlenesse to bee earnest and copious in prouynge that thinge that no man denieth Againe It is a lewed kinde of Logike stoutely to proue that thinge that needeth no profe to leaue the thing that should be proued On the other syde if he wyll deale sincerelye and vprightely in deede and leaue to vse suche feares as he hath in this his first Replie practised then shal it quickly be perceiued that either he must yeld and subscribe or els craue a licence to be loosed frome y â— bond into which he cast hym selfe through his own hastines in his ChalleÌ„ge The second Article â‚ IN this second Article the question is 96 whether there was then vnderstaÌ„d six hundred yeres after Christ any CoÌ„munion ministred vnto y e people vnder one kynd Is this al It seemeth to be al because in the vttering of the Challenge there is no other forme of wordes concerning this question Yet least perchance we shall be handeled here as we haue bene in the first Article let vs aske M. Iewel what he intendeth and what he demaundeth in this question Syr and please you what if we proue vnto you that some haue receaued the Sacrement vnder one kind at home in theyr owne houses as Serapion did Ecc. hict. lib. 6. 〈◊〉 34. is not the question concluded against you No saieth M. Iewel The question is of the vsage and order of the CHVRCH Iew. 〈◊〉 The firste shift of M. Iew. M. Hardinges answer is of Serapions death bed as though there had bene no CHVRCH yet erected in those daies Yes verely there were but as we maye say with S. Hierome In Apdlogia aduersus Iouin Christ is not one at home in the house an other in the Church and that which is not contrary to Christes institution and commaundement maye be done without the Church of building which he gaue no commaundement But let vs go further If I may proue vnto you that some certaine persons as sicke men and faintye haue receiued vnder one kind shall that stand vs in any stead against you No sayeth M. Iewel Iew. 13â— The second shift This is the only thing that I denied that ye are notable to bring anye one sufficient example or authority that euer the WHOLE PEOPLE receiued the Communion in open Church vnder one kinde Surely you be an hard man to deale withall which will measure your witnesses by quantity and not by quality and sike there for a number where a fewe and honest examples were to be credited Well I will not yet leaue you so What if I can proue that receiuing vnder one kind was to be found in close Chappels and Oratories in Wildernesse and Canes whyther contempt of the world or auoydinge of persecution draue the Christians go we not directly vnto the question and bring you into necessity of subscribing and yelding No sayeth Maister Iewel againe The question that standeth betwene vs The third Shifte Iew. 96. is moued thus WHETHER THE HOLY COMMVNION c. were euer ministred OPENLY in the Church Yet he lieth for neither OPENLYE neither CHVRCHE is specifyed in the question How say ye to infantes if I proue that they in old time receiued in one kind OPENLY The â—â—urth Shifte and in the CHVRCH doth not this make against you No sayeth Maister Iewel Maister Harding maketh his whole plea vpon an infant and yet of infantes as he knoweth I spake nothing No more did ye of OPEN CHVRCH Iew. 139. WHOLE PEOPLE LAY MEN Priestes or others But ye made an vniuersal and indefinite negatiue proposition which is by all reason sufficiently reproued if but in
their manners and tongues will easily be answered for the Bishopes to make it plaine are commaunded to prouide meete men to celebrate the diuine Seruice vnto theÌ„ Accordinge to the diuersitie of their manners or Rites and to minister the SacrameÌ„tes of the Church vnto them accordinge to the diuersitie of their tongues For as it is not enough to bringe a simple Italian if he 〈◊〉 be confessed and absoâ—â—ed to a priest of the Latine Church but to such a 〈◊〉 as vnderstandeth and speaketh y e ItaliaÌ„ tongue So in sayinge of Seruice to the same man it is enough to keepe the Rites and Ceremonies which he hath ben vsed vnto in his owne countrie and it is not required that it should be saied in the Italian tongue because in Confession respect is had to singular persons but in publik Seruice y e whole state of the Church is considered In confession also the priestes goe downe to men but in publike Seruice 〈◊〉 ascend vpward to God In talking with men our tongue should be knowen vnto them in praieinge to God the thiefe care ys of denotion And therfore it was not sincerely done of M. Iew. so to turne leaue out the wordes of this decree neither are litle omissions in this kinde litle faultes Who then may trust him with expoundinge the wordes or what hope might he haue so to handle the matter that Innocentius the third might seme to condemne his owne Church of Rome and straightly commaund that accordinge to the diuersitie of manners and tonges the holy Seruice should be ministred Was this law euer put in execution in Rome it selfe Was it not an easie matter for him beinge Pope to doe it Did not sundrie nations of diuerse toÌ„gues mete in that Citie togeather to geaue him occasion to do it yet hath he not done it and the Romaines tontinew still their Seruice in the Latine though their vulgar speach be Italian It appeareth then that Innocentius had no such meaninge as you deuise And note the wordes of the decree Let meete men be prouided to celebrate and minister to People of diuersâ— Countries Accordinge to the diuersitie of their Rites and tongues Here I would aske what diuersitie it speaketh of Such as was not yet extant in the Church or such as was presently vsed If ye meane the first that can not be for of those Rites which are not yet who can say Let them be serued accordinge to the diuersitie of their Rites If ye meane the second that is If ye vnderstand that such diuersitie of Rites and tongues as was then all readie found in the Catholike Church should be vsed toward y e people of euerie countrie where diuerse nations met togeather within one Citie or diocese this proueth not that the English men dwellinge at Rome should haue a new English Seruice made for them but only The right meaning of Innocentius decree that the like Rites and tongue as were vsed in their Countrie at home in their CoÌ„mon Seruice should be enioyed of them in Rome After the which rate the Italians abidinge in Constantinople should haue the Latin Seruice and not the Greeke And the Greekes in Venice should haue the Seruice after their owne manner and not after the Latine But what is this to our question for to make it playner let vs suppose y t a French man dwellinge then in Rome with other his countrie men wold require to haue his Common prayer in the French tongue To him would I say by what reason or consequent doest thou require it Here let his answer be how Innocentius decreed that euery nation should be prouided for according to the diuersitie of their manners and tongues I would aske him againe what manner or tongue haste thou in the Church Seruice in Fraunce If he answered we haue the French he should be taken in an open lye because none was than thought vpon If he answered as y e truth was we haue it in Latin but we haue other fashions in it then these of Rome haue then should he perceaue Innocentius and the Councels meaninge which was that the celebratinge of publike Seruice and ministration of Sacramentes as it was then presently vsed in seuerall Countries so should it be in a readinesse for the men of y e same Countries when they met together in one Citie accordinge to y â— diuersitie of their Rites and tongues Therfore if you M. Iew. can shew by any meanes that the Church Seruice of England was at that tyme in the English tonge then may I graunt vnto you y t when ye goe to Rome or ConstaÌ„tinople you may clayme the benefite of InnoceÌ„tius decree to be serued English wise But if you can not find that in any of so many seuerall Countries as may be rekoned the Seruice was then in any other tongue then Greeke or Latin then shal you see it plainly and necessarily concluded that euery of them was prouided for According to the diuersitie of Rites and tongue Tonge you must meane which they vsed in publik Seruice and in Churches and not in open Market Place or Pryuate howses and yet no one of them all should haue other tongue then Greeke or Latine And therfore this testimonie doth nor serue you nor satisfie vs. And byside this I must tell you that were it neuer so good and fitt for your purpose yet is it byside your Glorie to vse Popes decrees of so late makinge Now to conclude M. Iew. signifieth vnto vs that he might allege much more euen out of Addias him selfe Iew. 17 â–ª whom M. Hardinge so much estemeth But I will only note the complaint of one Iohn Billet Whome I beleue you as much esteme as you doe Abdias A lamentation of some of histrâ—â—des vpon M. Iewel would serue here wel for Complainte the 〈◊〉 of Iohn Billet Iew. 176 But wherein will ye note his complaint Concerninge this case What case whether that The Common Seruice was not ministred by one man alone but by the Priest and the whole CongregatioÌ„ together which is y e thinge ye promised to shew Or that the publike Seruice was in the six hundred yeares after Christ in any other tongue then Gréeke or Latine which question was only demaunded and vnto which you were content to answer for the better Contentation of myndes and better satisfaction of the Reader Goe to then what eyleth that One Iohn Billet Iew. 178 as you cal hym and whereof complayneth he Mary what shall we do sayeth he in our dayes when as there is either none at al or very seldome that readeth or heareth or vnderstandeth Vnderstandeth what the publike Seruice no but the Gospell which was readen in the Seruice for the wordes next before are that whereas in the Primitiue Church no man should speake wich tongues onlesse some were present to expound them here of sayeth he grew a laudable Custome y t after y e Gospell was read litterally it should straight waies be expounded
an other ragged and Barbarous In respect of God there is neyther Iew nor Gentile ergo you shall see a merueilous conclusion gathered out of Diuinitye who soeuer calleth some Iewes and some Gentiles speaketh by what Authoritie M. Iewel can not tell Or els thus In respect of God there is neyther Greeke nor Barbarous Ergo who so calleth one a Greeke Tounge an other Barbarous speaketh Master Iewel can not tell by what Authoritye Againe In respecte of God all is one but in respecte of men are not some Tounges Eloquent and other Barbarous And doe not your selfe confesse in thys very place M. Iew. forgetteth himselfe of whiche we speake that S. Paule makinge a full Diuision of the whole worlde nameth some Greekes and some Barbarous Yet in respecte of God there is neither Greke nor Barbarous pa. 155. Truly if D. Hardinge woulde haue made this distinction of his owne heade only you should not yet so curiously haue reproued hym for it consideringe that he sayth no more but I cal tounges Barbarous c. And makethe no rule to the worlde And that you haue his meaninge thereby expressed vnto you But least you thinke hym to be singular herein you shall finde in Contradus Gesnerns no Papiste I warant you that Barbarae siue Barbaricae linguae Conâ—in suo Michridatis praeter Graecam Latinam omnes dicuntur Nos etiam Hebraeam excipimus All tounges are called Barbarous or barbaricall byside the Greeke and Latine but we also doe except the Hebrew tounge I note therefore this much that you may consider with what Sprite ye procede whiche will not suffer a Lerned man to seperate by commodious distinction the three moste principal knowen and lerned Tounges Hebrew Greeke and Latine from other baser and Ruder tounges And that you fetch a far of such a reasoÌ„ to ouerthwart only his sayinges as may serue againste the Apostle himself for calling some Greekes and some Barbarous These thinges thus presupposed that Common Prayers and Common Seruice of the Church are not al one and that some there were within the sixe hundred after Christ which vnderstoode not the Publike Seruice and that all Tounges are Barbarous and Vulgare byside Greeke and Latine D. Harding begynneth to make argumentes for profe of his purpose Whereof it may begathered Iew. 159 How gredye that hitherto he hath proued nothing Much better it might be gathered that hitherto he hath made a plaine way to the matter by putting asyde suche doubtes as might come in betwene through occasion of wordes mistaken and misunderstanden What needeth therefore this brauerie Or what meaneth this hastines Or why triumpheth he not only before the victorye but also before battaile Wil not M. Iewel suffer a man to make a preface vnto his treatise And speake some generall thinges pertcining to the question before he make his principall argument against it but he must shew furth his winninges I can not tell what and say hereof it may be gathered that he hath hitherto proued nothing There is neither Wit nor Grauitie not Commoditie in it so to hall and put vnto him out of no occasion that which may sounde to disgracing of the Aduersary and magnifyinge of his owne cause But to the pointe of the question The chiefe Argument that D. Harding maketh is of one sorte as if he should say The inferiour Countries and Churches folowed the same tounge in publike Sernice which theyr Mother or Principall Church had But those inferiour Churches had sundry and seueral Languages ergo the vulgar people of theÌ„ could not vnderstand that general and vniforme tounge of the Principall Church This Argument he prosecuteth in order firste by Example of the Greeke Church then of the Latine and before he bringeth the Examples he doth in both places signify what he intendeth to proue and by what meanes or Propositions he will proue it And firste therefore these are to be considered either because they serue to the openinge of the state of this question either because it will be perceyued by them what truste is to be geuen to M. Iewel which so desperately as I may say doth put to and take away from D. Hardings words y t to know his falsehoode and Craftines it should be a good lesson to such as loue their saluation D. Harding before he sheweth particularly what he can say of the Seruice in the Greeke Church hath these wordes If IcaÌ„ shew y t the people of some countries of y e Greeke church which al had their praiers and Seruice in y e Greeke tounge The principâ—es out of which D. Harding will deduce his Conclusion in the question of Publike Seruice for y e more part vnderstode not the Greeke tounge theÌ„ haue I proued that I promised In which sentence he declareth his intent and purpose and sheweth what y e propositions are which being proued will serue that purpose The first is this The people of some Countries of the Greeke church vnderstode not for the more parte the Greeke tounge The seconde is Al the people of those countries had their Common praiers in the Greeke tounge This is y â— most y â— any man caÌ„ peeke out of those words except it be an other as M. Iewel is which as he can make of nothing somewhat so doth he make of somwhat al for thus he gloseth vpon the text of D. Hardinges wordes Two propositoÌ„s M. HardiÌ„g hath here choseÌ„ to proue Iew. 1â—9 the one is that AL the greeke church had the common Seruice More falshoâ—e of M. Iewels WHOLY and THOROVGHLY in the Greeke tounge Here first you lye For in D. Hardinges sentence these wordes WHOLY and THOROVGHLY are not founde at al and the WHICH AL that you seeme to take as spoken of the whole Greeke Churche is not thereto referred of D. Harding but to the people only of those some Countries which he mentioned the lyne before And therfor as much difference as there is betwene a General and a Speciall proposion Or the people of al Greece Al the people of some Coutries of Greece so greate and euident oddes there is betwene true meaning and M. Iewels dealing Nowe to the other proposition as M. Iewel reherseth it The other proposition is That some whole Countries in the Grekee Church vnderstoode not the Greeke tounge Yet more craft Before you were blamed for addinge here now are you to be noted for taking away But what is that No smal thinge surely nor such as may be spared but those very wordes which declare the truth and reasonablenesse of the proposition For it is to absolute and vnlikely to say Some whole Countries of the Greeke Church vnderstoode not the Greeke tounge but that for the more parte which wordes M. Iewell suppressed they vnderstode not the Greeke tongue that will be true in theyr iudgement which can consider how many Simple Rude and Ignorant there are in euery Country which know no other
Churche Ergo a Bishop of Rome was called Head of the Churche Haue ye any shift for this argument But M. Harding knoweth the case is moued Iew. 308 not of S. Peter but specially and namely of the bishop of Rome But Master D. Harding inferreth that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome ergo your Assertion is false if you sticke to the bare Letter of your question and inuent not some otherway to eskape by But when wil M. Iewel be to seeking For I dout not sayeth he But M. Harding doth remember Iew. 309 that the question that lieth betweene vs riseth not of any Extraordinary Name once or twice geuen vpon some speciall Affection Shiftinge and lying but of the vsuall and knowen Title of the Bishoppe of Rome How shoulde he remember that whiche you were not so Gentle or Wise to tel him of Haue ye not alwaies pressed hym with bringing forth of the Name of vniuersal Bishop â–ª Haue ye not misliked with him for it that he would not be bound to shewe the Name though he brought as much in sense as the Name importeth This haue ye done through your whole Aunswer with extreme Craking and Insultation And now when to satisfy your fantasticall request he hath alleaged the very Names and Titles which you vaunted your selfe so much vpon as thoughe they were neuer able to be found in any wryter ye flee to the Interpretation and Limitation of your question and stick not to y e plain and Grammatical construction of it And now see the vanity your selfe are able to bring forth good Authoritye where some Bishop of the worlde was called vniuersall Patriarch Iew. 30â— Hipocrite and that not by shifting of Termes one for another but in plaine manifest and expresse wordes and suche as in no wise may be denied Say you so Why then haue you all this while made such a matter of findinge oute these Termes vniuersal bishop and hed c. as though you would straight waies subscribe and yeld if you might therein be answered And why say you so constantly in an other place This Name is the verye thing that we deny If your selfe haue the places for that purpose already prepared gathered vndoubtedly to the Greate Praise of Iew. â—06 your Note Boke why doe you with suche brauery demaund them of your Aduersaries Or with extreme Iniquitie make a Tumult and Stur in mens consciencies for that word in which your selfe do know you are but a Bragger For if the Bishope of Constantinople were called an Vniuersall Patriarch caet how could you mistruste but as much and with more reason might haue bene sayed of the B. of Rome which was as you confesse the Cheife of the four Patriaches Or how could you be so earnest in reprouinge of that Title which your wisedome confesseth for a Surplusage to shew your greate learning and study to haue bene geuen to baser persons then the B. of Rome is If your Conscience were open through your owne sincere and true Dealing Or if by the Authorities which we should allege you were constrayned outwardly to expresse what ye conceaue and coÌ„cele within then should it be euident in sight that ye passe no more for the Names of Vniuersall Bishope Or Head of the Vniuersal Church though a thowsand Fathers had geauen them to the B. of of Rome then you doe regard the Termes Realy Verely truly with such like M. Iew. seketh not peace and concord but conâ—eÌ„tion and sâ—â—ite when they are by Catholike writers attributed to Christes body in the Sacrament And like as wheÌ„ these words Principality Primacy Cheife Rule or Ruler are proued to haue ben spokeÌ„ by old Fathers of y e See of Rome or B. there you turne your selfe to some dictionary or EtimologicoÌ„ of your owne or others Iewel 244 say A Principal Church is sometime vsed of the Fathers in this sense to signifie a Ciuil dominioÌ„ or principalitie of a Citie Againe Primatus is vsed for any superioriti or prefermeÌ„t aboue others Againe Princeps in the latin toÌ„ge is ofteÌ„ vsed for a maÌ„ 245 that for his vertu or rome or any singular qualitie is to be had in estimatioÌ„ aboue others 246 To be short wheras you say being pressed to S. Ambrose authoritie which called Damasus y â— B. of Rome Iew. 306 The Rector gouernor of y e church Let vs coÌ„sider whether the selfâ—ame form of speach haue beÌ„ applied to any other in like sort By which shift you satisfie y e coÌ„moÌ„ readers vntil you be againe answered to your greater coÌ„fusioÌ„ so hauing in your bosoÌ„ Iam sure lik distinctioÌ„s expositioÌ„s wher Vniuersal B. Head of the church are sundry wayes vsed you wold neuer if you had ben aquiet 〈◊〉 louer of truth so loÌ„g haue coÌ„tinued in requiring those veâ—y Termes to be allegeâ— which as you do expound them proue not to you sufficieÌ„tly y e Popes Supremicy You affirme 194 that in deede in a kinde of speach both Rome and Antioche and other great Cities famous for Religion may be called the Head and Spring of the Gospel And what shal let you then to turne theÌ„ to phrases whatsoeuer Titles be found attributed to the B. of Rome so by a kind of speach to make that Common which is Singular Wherby it is manifest that ye maintain CoÌ„tention and put those thinges forth which you know to be Nedelesse and Weake and Feeble only to try perchaunce the strength of your Aduersaries to the CommeÌ„dation of your owne Learning Or Vttering of y t Notes which ye haue gathered Or to oppresse your Answerer wyth multitude of words and quarels y t for the very heaps of them being either not Answered at all Or answered not so speedily you might triuÌ„ph iâ— y â— meane space w t some probability For when y â— Catholikes alleage Termes of like force and Equiualent then wil you haue no other but the Names of Vniuersall Bishop and Head c and then the Name is the thing that you deny From oâ—e corner to an other And when those selues same very NAMES are brought before you then ye make as though it were no harde matter to haue founde them out but then bring you the lyke of your owne Motion and then you run to Limitations vpon your question and to Shiftinge frome one point to another declaringe thereby that your sense only is to be coÌ„sidered although ye peeked the quarell against the Word But where will you staie your selfe For if it were proued in most ample manner with al Conditions and Circumstances as you by Shiftinge haue nowe added to the Principall question that the B. of Rome was not called but Intitled and Proclamed not of Priests pore Deacons but of some Riche Prelates sitting in GENERAL COVNCEL and that not once or twise vpoÌ„ fauor but by an Vsuall and knowen Stile All this would not conuert M. Iewel For in
saie we neede no Councel to restore Gods Truth that was taken awaie from vs without a Councel Euerie prince is bound in the whole to see the reformation of his owne Church and Countri Neither wil God hold him excused if he saie I wil tarye til al other Princes and the whole world doe the Lyke Iosue that noble prince when he had assembled al the tribes of Israel before him thus he spake vnto them Si malum vobis videtur c. If ye thinke it il to serue the Lord ye shal haue your choise But I and my house wil serue the Lord. Is it Lawful then to refuse the Nicene Councel euen in this respect only as it consisted of Chiefe heades and Gouernours of al Christendome Tertul. aduersuâ— Praxeâ— It pleased God to plant his Church in this Realme three hundred yeres before the first General Councel was holden at Nice The Lordes hand is not shortened He is likewise hable nowe to reforme the same by his holie word without tarieing for a General Councel For Antiquitie TErtullian saieth Hoc aduersus omnes Haereses valet id esse veruÌ„ quodcunque prius c. This marke preuai leth Against al Heresies That is the Trueth that was vsed first That is false and corrupt that was brought in afterward And therefore the holy fathers in the Councel of Nice made this general shoute and agreed vpon the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let the AuncieÌ„t orders hold stil referring themselues thereby to the vse and order of the Primitiue Church Contrarywyse Valentinus Marcion and other Lyke Heretykes thought themselues wisest of al others and therefore vtterly refused as M. Harding and his felowes doe now to stand to the Apostles orders Thus Ireneus writeth of them Irenaeus lib. 3. ca. 2. Dicunt se non solum presbyteris c. They wil saie y t thei are wiser not only then other Priestes but also then the Apostles and that they haue found owt the perfite trueth Against Antiquitie NOtwithstanding it appeare by S. Augustine S. Cyprian Iew. 12â— and others that Infantes in the primitiue Church in sundrie places were admitted to the holy Communion yet AFTERWARDE vpon good aduyse they were iustly remoued from it because that benig in that age they were not thought hable to examine and proue theÌ„selues according to the doctrine of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11 and so to eate of that Breade and Drinke of that Cup. By this rekening then they of the primitiue Churche vnderstode not S. Paule so wel as the aftercummers And so hath Tertullians saiâ—ing litle effect how That is the Trueth that was vsed first It wil serue also in this place al that M. Iew. hath gathered Against Fathers and custome as aboue is declared For Vnitie GOD hath other waies and meanes saieth M. Iew. then by the Gouernement of the Bishopes of Rome whereby he hath euer gouerned his Church and preserued Vnitie How proueth he this Mary S. Cyprian saieth Ideo plures c. Therefore there be many Bishopes in the Church Iew 260 that one ruÌ„ning into heresies y â— rest may help e againe Cypr. lib. 3. epi. 13. lib. 4. epi. 9. The Churche is preserued in Vnitie by y e coÌ„sent of bishopes agreing in one And to this end S. Hiecome saieth as is before alleged Nouerint Episcopi c. Let Bishopes vnder staÌ„d In epi. ad Titum cap. 1. that they ought to rule y e Church as al in one Against Vnitie IMmediatly vpoÌ„ y t forsaied wordes foloweth a CoÌ„moÌ„ place against Vnitie As if M. Iewel would plainely protest that when it maketh any thing for his syde then it shal be alowed and praised And y t when the aduersarie would turne it to his purpose then shal it be litle or nothing worthe As in example Iew. 260 Hieron contra Luciferianos S. Hierome saieth Nomine vnitatis fidei Infidelitas scripta est Infidelitie hath ben writen vnder the Name of faith and Vnitie So lykewyse saieth the wyse man In tanto viuentes ignoraÌ„tiae bello Sap. 14. tot tanta mala Pacem appellabant VVhereas they Lyued in such a warr of ignorance so many and so greate mischiefs they called Vnitie What remaineth then now to be folowed of certaintie Or what staie shal there be for a right meanyng affection and trobled conscience If no such hold is to be taken of Fathers Councels Custom c. but that the Enemie wil make it to be forsaken vtterly or daungerously doubted of what Refuge is there left or what Authoritie Shal the Bishopes which are for the tyme rule in the causes of Religion That surely is already so apointed by God and that if it were otherwise should chieflie be wyshed for and procured But what hope is there to haue this graunted of M. Iewel Or if at one time he wil yeld vnto it at an other he will deny it For sometimes he will haue all Bishops equall And what order then can be set there where no one is better then an other Sometimes he will haue differencies and distinctions of Authoritie among them Yet then how little shall that preuaile when he wil not be obedient to that Authority As in example For aequalitie of Bishops S. Hierome wryteth thus vnto Euagrius Iew. 2â— Si Authoritas quaeritur c. If we seeke for Authority the world is greater then the Citie of Rome VVheresoeuer there is a Bishop whether he be at Rome or at Eugubium or at Constantinople or at Rhegium c. he is of like worthines and of like priesthode Because we are not onely led inwardly by Gods Spirit Iew. 257. but allso outwardly by our senses therefore hath Christ appointed not one man to be his Vicar Generall ouer all but euery of his Apostles and so euery Priest to be his Vicar within his diuision So saieth Eusebius B. of Rome Caput Ecclesiae Christus est Epist 3 c. Christ is the heade of the Church And his Vicares be the Priestes that doe their Message in the Churche in the steede of Christ Euery Bishop hath a portion of the Flocke allotted vnto him Iew. 266. Cyp li. 1. Epi. 3. whiche he must rule and gouerne and yeld accoÌ„pt vnto the Lord for the same For distinction emong Bishops The Decrees of the Councel of Nice Iew. 336. Conc. Aphric Ca. 105 haue committed bothe the inferioure clerkes and also the Bishoppes vnto their Metropolitaâ—es The Fathers of the Councell of Aphrica haue decreed thus that the B. of the first See Iew. 240 Ca. 6. be not called the chief of Priests or the highest Priest or by any other like title but only the Bishop of the first See In the Councel of CoÌ„stantinople it is wryten thus Iew. 245 Const 1. Ca. 2. Let the Bishops of Alexandria haue the charge only of the East the honor of primaci euer reserued to the church of Antioch More to this place might
saie Our lampes be without light And this may be saied either charitablie enough naming no persons and sorowing y e case either very discreetly against Heretikes which so obiect vnto vs the euil liues of Popes as though it were an Article of our faith that a Pope can neuer synne or our cause were vtterly destroied if so much were confessed or graunted which is so far otherwise that it proueth rather the prouidence mercie of God towardes his Church to be exceding sure greate in assisting the See of Rome in which euil men are constrained to tel Truthe y t y e hope of y e faithful might be stedfast in God August epi. 166. and not come goe at the good or euil life of any Pope These Examples I trust are sufficient and plaine enough of themselues not only to proue that M. Iewel hath very dissorderly behaued hymselfe in repeting of D. Hardings Argumentes but also to warne euery Indifferent Gentle reader of the Daunger which needes must folow if without further serche or Consideration of the mater he take that for a Trueth and Certaintie which M. Iewel once committeth vnto printing Note also that al these forsayed Argumentes which M. Iewel hath thrust out of their right waie to find fault with theÌ„ contynue yet stil in their true sense and meaning without any iust Replie or Answer to the contrarie And so must those pointes of the Controuersies betwene hym and vs remaine as wel proued on the Catholykes syde which are touched specially in these forsaied argumentes and Examples vnto which he hath geauen no direct or cleare Answer How M. Iewel disgraceth D. Har. Authorities CAP. V. IT foloweth now shortly to declare how M. Iewel Disgraceth and extenuateth the Authorities of D. Har. For emong Sophistes it is one of the kindes of Answering when they can not directly or sufficieÌ„tly put away the argument to deface then by A croked worde and a wrie mouth Or a Lippe as it were the whole mater Which the more vngracious it is the deeper it is printed in the myndes of to many And the viler it is the more it needeth to be discouered that ernest and sad Truthe may not be so easely outfaced Surely if in temporall maters where the thinges that men striue vpon are sensible this maner of dealing of which Examples shall folow out of M. Iewell be vsed the Stomakes doe so increase y â— it maketh men quickly to let goe Wordes and to come to blowes Yet God forbid that I should wisshe for any such Conclusion but this doe I meane only that if so greate offense be taken of a Temporall Iniurie much more it should greeue vs to see maters of Religion depraued And truely in Temporall causes men oftimes are to quicke but concerning the State of right faith and vnderstanding they neede not mistrust least they be to deuont and diligent Let the Examples declare whether I burden M. Iewel rightly or no. D. Har. after other causes which moued him not to discredite y â— Treatise of Amphilochius vpoÌ„ S. Basiles life miracles he sayeth at the last that this Treatise is to be seeÌ„ in the Librarie of S. Nasarius in the Citie of Verona in Italie Writen in Veleme for three huÌ„dred yeres past bearing the name of Amphilochius Bishope of Iconium 〈…〉 But A Calues skinne quod M. Iewel is no sufficient warrant of trueth In deede who can deny it Neither doth D. Harding Conclude that it is to be credited because it was writen in veleme but because it was writen so long agoe and kept to this day in a Librarie at Verona D. Harding putteth a case of foure or fyue Another Example which in time of siknesse should be desirous to Receiue And if neither the Preist be able neither other be willing to Communicate with them may not saieth he they Receiâ—e seuerally And doe not they Communicate together See now M. Iewells demeanure Alas saieth he must he leaue al the old Doctours and holy Fathers and begg at deathes dore to geat sumwhat to help his Masse Alas M. Iewel are you so vnsensible Iew. 31. Kynd hart that you thinke it to be a leaning of all Old Doctours to make an Argument of A Sicke mans case And as you haue allreadie made a Rule that no Authoritie against you shall stand but that which is taken iust out of the next six hundred after Christ will you so now perchannce contemne all Reasons as beggarly which are not without a certaine precincte of Deathes Dore I permit it to your Conscience whether this your Alas became your State Or can be suffered in an ernest Question An other Example A Third Example Here first I would aske the Indifferent Reader whether an English man borne might not vse in his writinges the Authoritie of S. Basile And whether S. Basile reporting it y â— they which lyned in wildernesse Or in Alexandria Or in Egypt had the Communion at home And kept it with theÌ„ selues And Receyued it of them selues it were not lawfull to speake it againe and to vse that Testimonie Yet M. Iewell sayeth Verely Iew. 138. if M. Harding could finde any thing in the Church he would not thus hunt the Mountaines neither would he flee for ayde into AEgypt if he could finde any neere at home What would this felow call the Liuing it self of holy men in Mountaines which nicknameth the diligent gathering of Argumentes out of their lyuing a hunting of Mountaines And calleth the vsing of the Fathers of Egypts Authoritie a fleeing for ayde into AEgypt How far I pray you will you suffer vs to goe for an Argument without Obiecting of fleeing vnto vs Yet what aske I you Leaue Or Counsel in this mater which am sure y â— Truth is not founde only in Europe but in euery place of the world where Christ is confessed Againe Who goeth farther He that goeth in his Answer beyonde Reason Or he y â— Reasoneth vpon a fact done beyonde the See called Mediterraneum And applieth it to his purpose Keepe your self warme at home M. Iewell as long as you may for if you be once out of your owne Countrie your Religion is so Vniuersall and Catholike that many myles before ye come to the Mountaines or Egypt you will be taken for a Renegate He hath alleged saieth M. Iewell of Doctor Harding two women The fourth Example Iew. 142 Disdainefully three sicke folk in their death beddes Personnes excoÌ„municate Infantes Phrenetikes and Madd men He hath alleged Napkyns Chestes Chambers Mountaines and wildernesse He alleged these in deede to proue Sole Receiuing And if your Mastership contemne the persons because they were VVomen Sicke folke Infantes Phrenetikes Or the thinges themselues because in telling of theÌ„ mention is made of Napkins Chestes Chambers and Mountaines Yet let the Indifferent Reader consider that these base Persons and Thinges were not by or for theÌ„selues respected of D. Harding but the Authoritie of
D. Hardinges Argument consisted in these wordes propter maiorem principalitatem because of the greater principalitie of y e Church of Rome Why dissimble you then And why plaie you the hypocrite so artificially in keping that backe which should haue ben at the very first Answered And in delyuering it whē it cummeth after such a sort as maie cause the Reader to conceine that it is of your owne pure Inuention and not of your aduersaries obiection And that you doe freely of your owne wil and wit encrease y e strength of the witnesses brought against you and speake more for your Aduersarye then he hath done for hymselfe Thei wil you saie Replie Wil thei Naie thei doe And not Replie as though it would depend of a former argument but Obiect without anie preambles that The Greater or mightier Principalitie of the Church of Rome which Irenaeus speaketh of doth proue the Supremacie therof aboue al other Churches Yet you But only at it There is also a very plaine Testimonie The fourth Example of S. Ambrose alleged by D. Har. for the Supremacie of the see of Rome And the strength of the argumēt consisteth in this y t the Chieftie of the Apostolike priesthood is affirmed by him to florisshe there Amb. lib. ◠cap. 6. Note y e wordes Chieftie and priesthoode For vntil answer be made to thē al besides is but Rouing As in Example owt of M. Iewel He admitteth first S. Ambrose wordes and addeth more vnto them to the praise of the Church of Rome He preferreth and worthely the Glorie of Christs Gospel before the power of the Romane Empire Al byside y e marcke He encreaseth the mater by the testimonies of S. Augustine and S. Chrysostome and leaueth it as a most plaine and manifest Trueth that Rome was more noble for the Gospel of Christ then the Empire of the world And whereas he is not so dul but perceaueth wel enough that al this geare cummeth not to the point of y e argument then he cummeth to his familiar BVT saieing But S. Ambrose saieth Iew. 248 Apostolici sacerdotij principatum The principalitie of the Apostolike Priesthoode Yea forsoth M. Iewel of the Principalitie of Priesthoode S. Ambrose speaketh And we maye wel wonder that al this while you haue dissembled as though you had not seene the marke which we set before you to direct your answer there vnto Now how wel you haue Replied concerning these two Testimonies of S. Iren. and S. Ambrose it shal be examined in the place proper for it which wil be in the third Booke At this present I note your Craft only and Hypocrisie by which you conueigh the matter so that you maie first wander abrode withowt scope in deede yet not withowt some apparance of direct Answer and that afterwardes you come with A BVT to the very poynt of the argument and make it seeme that this BVT was set vp of your owne self and not of the aduersarie Of which kynde he that wil require moe examples maie for the seking easely haue thē And when he findeth thē let hym remember that it is but a lewde kynde of Rhetorike either so to daly with the Aduersarie either so to delay the right Answer vnto the mater proponed And now to an other point Of M. Iewels Refellyng one Truthe by an other CAP. VIII IT is A common thing with you M. Iewel in Answering to put awaie one Trueth by an other Or by adding one to an other so to confoūde them bothe that no certainety shal be founde in the question Which surely is a good prouision y t you may haue sumwhat alwaies to Replie but except there folow a better Application it should not in any part satisfie As in Example When Ireneus witnesseth that Bishopes of the Greke Church cummyng to Rome The first Example Eccl. Histor lib. 5. ca. 24. had the Eucharistia sent vnto them to signifie their mutual Communion in Sacrament notwithstanding their Diuersitie in keeping of Easter though you should bring neuer so manye Examples that Paulinus sent at one tyme a loaf of breade to S. Augustine Iew. 40. at an other fyue loues and them in token of good wil yet doe ye not proue hereby that the Eucharistia which S. Ireneus speaketh of was not as the Catholikes expounde it the Sacrament For neither is the bread which S. Paulinus sēt called Eucharistia neither doe such Presentes from one to other proue a consent in Religion And y t which S. Ireneus speaketh of is called Eucharistia and the cause for which it was sent which was to signifie their vnitie Eucharistit in the Substance of our Religion doth require that it should be y e Sacrament And so I saie true it is that Bishopes presented Bisshopes with tokens of mutual frindship but this Trueth must not destroie or confound an other Trueth of the Custome in the Church of Rome to send the very Sacrament to the Bishopes that came from the East Churche And in this place M. Iewel you lacke not Inuentiō but Application And you bring furth in deede faire loues but you match them not rightly with the Sacrament The sum of M. Iewels Answer is this The loafe which Paulinus sent vnto S. Augustine was not the Sacrament Ergo the Eucharistia which S. Irenaeus witnesseth to haue ben sent to bishopes of the East cummyng to Rome was not the Sacrament Leontius a Breeke writer The 2. Example reporteth of the Patriarke of Alexandria y t he saied Masse fecit Missas in his Oratorie yet wil it not necessarily folow saieth M. Ieu Iew. 78. Missa that Missa in this place importeth the masse For as I haue already proued by sundry Authorities Missa is oftentymes vsed for any kynd of praier But what then If it be oftentymes so vsed must it not be otherwise vsed in this place df Leontius How proue you this Consequence Or how Applie you y e one place to the other Breifly then to repete it M. Iewels answer is this Missa is often tymes taken for any kynd of Praier Ergo the Masse which holy Iohn the Almener saied was not properly masse In the same historie of Leontius D. The 3. Example Harding expoundeth cum benedixisset sancta thus in Englishe when the Patriarch had consecrated Benedicere sancta Which proueth by the waie that missa the Masse of which the Storie speaketh is not taken for any kind of Praier because blessing of the holy thinges or consecratiō is not vsed generally in euery kynde but in Special mater Tyme and place But to note what M. Iewel concludeth of Benedicere sancta These wordes doe no more signifie faieth he the cōsecration of the Sacrament Iew. 78. as M. Harding hath translated it then these wordes Extollite manus vestras in sancta doe signifie the lifting vp of handes to the Sacrament And why so Chrysostome in his Lyturgie vseth the same manner
directly to be considered The Answer of M. Iewell is this Princeps is often vsed for a man had in estimation for any Vertue Roome Or Singular Qualitie Ergo the Principalytie whiche S. Augustine attributeth to the Apostolike See consisteth not in Supreme GouerÌ„ment It woulde be ouer longe and tedious to teken vp all Examples by whiche I might euidently confirme this obiection of myne that Maister Iewell vseth the settinge further of one Trueth to the disgracinge or dissanulling rather of an other As when the Catholikes say to proue the Supremacie of the Bisshope of Rome Iulius restored Athanasius The .vij Example Iew. 290 M. Iewell Answereth Maximus also restored vnto him his Communion When they say The viij Example Touching faith and Religion the See of Rome hath alwaies bene consulted He Answereth Iew. 294 Marcellinus Dulcitius Bonifacius Euodius and other sent theyr questions to S. Augustine When they say The .ix. Example S. Peter was called Princeps or Chiefe of the Apostles He Answereth So we reed in Scriptures Princeps Familiae Princeps Legationis Princeps Coquorum that is the Chiefe of rhe house or stocke Iew. 302. the Chiefe of the Embassage the Chiefe of the Cookes When the Catholikes say The .x. Example S. Peter the Master of the whole world apointed S. Iames to be Bisshope of Hierusalem Iew. 303 He Answereth That vnto Michael is committed the nation of the Iewes But Land and Sea and all the habitation of the world is committed to S. Paule When they say The .xi. Example that Rome is the moste notable and chief Church of the worlde He Answereth that Cicero to blase the nobilitie of that Citie calleth lucem orbisterrarum atâ—ue arcem omnium GentiuÌ„ Iew. 304 the light of the world and the Castle of all nations To make an end when they say out of S. Ambrose The .xii. Example That Damasus the Pope is called the Rector and Ruler of the house of God To put the mater out of al doubt see what he answereth therevnto But to put the mater out of doubt let vs consider whether the selfe same forme of Speach Iew. 306 haue bene applied to any others in like sorte And then he telleth where other Bisshopes haue bene sayed to be Rulers in the Church But doth this kinde of Auswer either satisfie the Obiection Or Determine the Trueth Or quiet a doubtful minde Doth not this kinde of Reasoning bring vs rather into perplexities that it may not be knowen how to be resolued in any mater Is there any fitter waye for the Antichrist to worke by Antichrist high way for 〈◊〉 then by Forme and Phrases of Speache to confound all Faith and Religion Doe you beleue M. Iewel that Christ is the Sonne of God But doe you beleue that he is the natural Sonne of his Father of the same Substance Eternitie with him If you doe so in deede what say you to this Argument that Iudges in y e Scriptures are called Goddes Ex. 22 and that the frindes and Seruantes of God are called Goddes psal 81. Would this put the mater out of doubt that Christe is not the Sonne of God I meane by Nature because you coulde finde it oute after you had considered it where the selfsame form of speache is applied to others in like sort And where suche as are not the naturall Children of God are called yet the Children of God Christ saueth vs in Form of Speache S. Paule sayeth to Timothie Doeinge so thou shalt saue thy self 1. Tim. 4. and them that heare thee And would you conclude herevpon that the Power of sauinge is all one in them bothe because the Forme of the worde is all one Or that it is not properly and worthely veryfyed of Christe because it is but improperly attributed to S. Timothie Consider then I praie you M. Iewel whether this will put the mater oute of doubt if in Refelling the Sense of some one place whiche pleaseth you not you bringe a lyke Forme of Speache vsed in an other place And without further probation require to haue the vnderstandinge which your Aduersaie gathereth of his witnesse to be reformed accordinge to the meaninge of the Sentencies which you allege As because Princeps that is Chiefe is vsed in bothe places whether you say Princeps Apostolorum or Princeps Coquorum Therefore to conclude that the Chieftie of S. Peter Emonge the Apostles was no other thinge then the Chieftie of N. emonge the Cookes Beware therefore Christen Reader of M. Iewell And especially in those places whiche as they make moste for the Catholyke Faith so hath he no other refuge for sauinge hym selfe from Subscribinge vnto them but this very Simple one and Feeble to seeke where lyke Phrases may be founde of an other Sense yet and meanynge thereby to bringe in to doubt or as he supposeth to putre out of doubte that the Sense of the Catholykes Obiection can not contynue Whiche in fewe wordes is no other then to shewe hymselfe A Grammarian only And to destroie one trueth by an other as though One phrase might not haue two good Senses eche one agreeing with the place in which they are apointed to serue The sum of M. Iewels Argument is this The like forme or phrase of speache is to be found in an other sense Ergo to put the mater out of doubt this Present place of which the question is hath not a different or sundrie sense frome that other The Summe of my meaning is this that no man be deceaued through this kind of M. Iewels Answering wherein he so telleth one Trueth that he disswadeth an other This practise of the ProtestaÌ„tes hath already done harme inough let them beginne rather to amend theyr former iniquites then to adde fresshe vnto them They haue answered God must be worshipped in Spirite Which is most true and haue thereby taken awaie an other trueth that God is also to be worshipped with our body and bodily thinges They haue answered The true Fast is to abstaine frome Synne Whiche is vndoubteely True but by that faire shew of pure holynes they haue Destroied an other Trueth that Togeather with the fasting from synne we must also take paynes in our body and abstaine now and then from meate and drinke Thei haue Answered We must receiue the body of Christ by faithe which in some sense is most true But thei haue there withal taught the people not to beleue the Real presence of Christ in the Sacrament which presence yet is as true as the other is certaine In other cases moe they haue done the lyke It is to much that thei haue already done let them not therefore continue in this trade of Answering nor of dealing in maters of Religion Specially when thei bring the mater to Phrases of Speache and Signification of wordes and by one Sense take awaie an other whereas bothe in their seueral places doe agree with Truthe
Places which you so ofte and thicke Expound your own meaninge if we M. 〈◊〉 haue missed doe bring againste the Pope are odious at the firste hearinge but when they shall be Considered and Answered either they shall he founde not to be so as you reporte either els to haue a true and Christian sense in them Therefore to presse vs w t them out of Place Season that we should not intend to answer theÌ„ that they so 〈◊〉 away for the present without Answer might hinder our cause in the iudgement of many a Reader it was craftely done and vnhonestlye As on the other side if you God wote meante no harme at all but without all immoderate Affection or Crafty cumpasse went plainely and directly forwarde in your matters only that your Replie might be full then haue you done grosselye and vnorderly To be shorte whatsoeuer and howsoeuer the causes be the Indifferent Reader may iudge of y e Effect and perceaue that they are vndoubted Digressions whiche you haue made from the question to Canons and the Gloses vpon theÌ„ and which I burden you withall And I burden you herewithall so much the more iustely and ernestly M. Iew. finâ—â—th fault with digressioÌ„s because your selfe are so Rigorous vppon lesse Occasion or none at all againste D. Hardinge For when he in the Article of Priuate Masse did put it as a sure Ground that the Masse or Vnbloudye Sacrifice was so manye wayes to the Proued that you coulde not withstande the Catholykes therein Hard. Fol. 25. And towched shortelye in a Leafe and a half the Authorities which dydde serue that Purpose of whiche he might haue made A Iuste Treatise and neuer haue gone byside hys Purpose yet that litle whiche he spake greeueth you so much that you say It is a simple kinde of Rhetorike Iew. p 12 to vse so large digressions frome the matter before ye once enter into the matter As who should say that the Author of a Treatise might not take what Order he would Or that to speake of the Masse were an Impertinent thinge to Priuate Masse Or that in the discussing of a compound it were not lawfull to open the nature of y e simple Or when two things are at one tyme yet couertly impugned to shew that the one of them standeth vppon sure ground thereby to discumforte the Aduersarie After like sorte of quarrelling whereas D. Harding concluded that Single Communion was not only suffered in tyme of persecution Hard. 38. but also allowed in quiet peaceable tymes euen in the Churche of Rome it selfe where true Religion hath euer bene moste exactly obserued caet M. Iewel greately offended herewith all and merueilinge as it were at the Matter But why doth M. Hardinge sayeth he Iew. 5â— thus out of reason rush into the Church of Rome that was longe agoe But why say you so M. Iewel Doth not the Argument which he maketh require that he should commend that See For Rome itselfe allowed sayeth he paiâ—ate Masse ergo it is the lesse to be douted of Whiche Argument because it will at these dayes seeme the worse the more that it dependeth of the Authoritie of that See could he doe lesse then bring one testimonie in the praise thereof and call you this a Russhing in thereto out of season But what should he haue done by your fyne aduise Mary say you See the malice to speake il of Rome he taketh it to be to some purpose and to speake wel therof he coÌ„pteth it out of season It had bene more to the purpose to haue vewed the state of the same Church as it standeth now Had it so And you being so Maliciously and wickedly disposed would the Authoritie thereof as it is now haue preuailed with you Lette anie indifferent man be Iudge whether it had bene aptlye done of D. Harding in warrantinge of Sole Receauinge as alowed in Rome to commend y â— ConsequeÌ„ce by telling the faults which may be founde in that Citie nowe rather then the testimony of the Bishopes of all Gallia whiche within the six hundred yeres after Christe acknowleged that from thence came the Fountaine and spring of theyr Religion Againe let any Indifferent man iudge whether M. Iewell hath Answered this prayse of the Bisshoppes of Gallia geauen so longe agoe vnto the Churche of Rome by his Accusinge of Bisshoppes Cardinales and Priestes Or by Lamentinge the case of Rome as S. Bernarde dyd Or by makinge of Prouerbes vppon it as Euripides sometyme dyd of the Citie of Athens Surely in this very place Is this the liberty of the Gospell or the Charitye of your Sprites where without cause he reproueth his Aduersarie for commendinge out of season as he iudgeth the See of Rome it is a greate shame to Rushe into Discommendation of Bisshoppes Cardinals and Priestes attendinge vppon that See And to like it better to Examine and Iudge the Present 〈◊〉 of Rome then to remember the Auncient Dignitie and Vertue thereof to confirmation of suche pointes as in those dayes were by it alowed Other places and Signes thâ—re are out of which I doe gather that M. Iewel can not abide Digressions as when he sayeth This Question is out of course Iew. 149 We may well suffer M. Hardinge to wander at large in matters that relieue him nothing 153. Iâ— it were lawfull for others so to doe it were no greate Masterie to write Bookes Again These be none of the maters that lie in Question M. Harding maketh a longe discourse of the Apostles caet 155. If he had shewed to what end we might the better haue knowen his purpose But to what end 160. For neither it is denied of vs nor it is any part of our question Which thinge neither is denied by me 180. nor any wise toucheth the question By these I am persuaded that he would haue y e matter it self folowed and loueth not to haue the time idelly bestowed Nowe though I am hable to declare that Doctour Hardinge in these pointes hath done no otherwise then he lawfullye might Yet to lette that passe I Conclude agaynste 〈◊〉 Iewell that of all thinges it is most Absurd in him that is so Precise with other Vnequall measure to be wide and large towardes him selfe in the selfe same kinde of thing for which though vniustlye he reproueth other And if Iew. 153. as M. Iewel confesseth it be no great mastery to wryte bookes if it be lawful to waÌ„der at large in matters that relieue not Let no man wonder at the worthynesse of him which hath wrytten so mightye a Reply considering that he runneth so far into Common Places and Rusheth so fowlye into dispraise of Popes Cardinals Priests and Church of Rome whiche neither maketh the new Gospellers the honester meÌ„ neither destroieth the Present and Auncient faith of the Catholike Church ¶ Of a thirde kinde of Common Places worse then any of
the foresaid two CAP. III. TO proue by examininge of sundrye wintesses A Truthe which is either plaine by it selfe Or els by the Aduersary confessed it is an idle spending and prolonging of tyme to the shame of the party that vseth it And no hurt at al to the vnderstanding of the Iudge or the Court by troubling them with some dout or erroure For in laboring to perswade but a Trueth which euery man oughte to cleaue vnto be the vnderstanding neuer so closelye vnited therevnto by fulnesse of perswasion it can be no sinne or daunger to stand fast by that which not to assent vnto were reproueable And therefore sauing for other tircumstances of Subteltie or Vanitie vsed therein M. Iewel is not hurtfull to any poynte of true Faithe and Religion in his folowing of those Common Places of which I haue spoken all ready On the other side when an Heretike goeth from the matter that he hathe taken in hand to Accuse and Condemne and bring into harred Popes Cardinalles Priestes c. by gathering in of Ruinors by folowing of Suspitions and setting open vnto the world the worst that he can speake of the Clergy This although it be Vniustly Proudly and Vncharitably don yet doth it not greatly touche in any parte our Faith or Religion For if all were true that is fained vpon Popes Cardinals and Priestes Or if nothing be false of that which their Enemies reporte of some of them what foloweth then No more surely than that suche Persons are offenders and that the faultes of the Clergy are to be Corrected And I pray God be mercifull vnto his Church that either no Crimes be found among the worthier members of it Or iust Canons and lawes may be executed suche as allready are made for the purpose But let these thinges be as they may or will be who hath made Englishmen Iudges ouer Romanes Or who but the cursed Children doe tell tales abrode of their Fathers Priuities Againe why should there not be Praying for Soules departed because Some haue taken mony for it Or whye due honor not geuen to Sacramentes because some Sir Iohns are irrenerent It is not safe to leape out of the Arke into the maine waters beeause of some euil sent of men or bcastes therin Or to leaue the folowing of Christe because Publicanes and lypnners went in his companye The Apostleship is honorable thoughe Iudas be a Traitor And the Doctrine of him that sitteth orderlye in the Chaire is pure and good though the breathe whyche commeth from him doe sauoure These things therefore considered let M. Iewel make Impure digressions not sparinge to beraie his owne clothes in a fowle waye and intent so that he may get some dust or durt to hurle after â— e heeles of Popes and Cardinals Yet al this concerneth but maners only and should not in anie Indifferent iudgement or meane discretion remoue a Christian from the sâ—edfastnes of his faith But nowe A thirde kind of Common Places which I finde resorted vnto of M. Iewel Yea rather pointed out vnto vs by him is so wide and so daungerous that a man shall not only goe quickely out of his waye in folowinge them by him selfe but also when God shall send him a Guide to conducte him in the way 〈…〉 be vncertaine and doutful 〈…〉 meanes as M. Iewel 〈…〉 It semeth that now 〈…〉 long since intended Purpoâ—es of the 〈…〉 almost come to theyr 〈…〉 there lacketh no more nowe but that by Open Apostasie he make the faith of Christe to be forsaken and that not so much as the name thereof shal be suffered in the world Speake I this without cause Let any Indifferent man be Iudge For take the fundations awaye frome an howse and can it contynue any space together Take all credite awaye betwixte man and man in this trade of life and will there be left any Occupying to and fro If no Authoritie and law be in a Common wealthe can the state thereof endure What is that among Christians which hath brought them vnto the Faith and Staied and Gouerned them in it Is it not the Authority of the Churche Commending the Doctrine of Christ vnto vs By Fathers By Councels By Custome and Tradition And by Succession of Bishoppes euen from S. Peter hitherto Preparation for y â— Antichrist Emong all which if no one may safely be leaned vnto what remaineth in all the world worthye of credite And except there be an Authoritye and Order which we may and must folow what Faith can we haue at all But who is he that prepareth suche waies for the Antichrist Or who shaketh the Hartes and Consciencies of Christians euen from the very botome and foundations of them Mary except you BEWARE of him M. Iewel emonge other is he And either he keepeth yet still in store some secrete ReuelatioÌ„s by which perchaunce he will perswade the worlde which is incredible Or els As farre as we may gather by his Reply neither him selfe hath any Faith neither will suffer any other to be quiet in it Like a Rhetorician which for Glorie or Gaine sake feareth nothing so much as to be found Tongetied in any matter especially professing to speake aptly and copiously in euery matter And to that end prouideth his Common places to be in a readinesse For witnesses and Against witnesses For Rumors and againste Rumors For trying oute a matter by Racking and Against racking So hathe M. Iewel done Diuinitye brought to Rhetoricke He hathe brought Diuinitie downe to Rhetoricke And as though the kingdome of God consisted in Talke and not in Vertue and Power so doth he shewe vnto his diligenâ— Readers the Arte how to weakeÌ„ the Aduersaries staies and Authorities and in answering all other men yet for their owne partes neuer to be answered And to this end serueth thys worst kind of Common Places of which I gene thee Indifferent Reader faire warning As in example For Custome against Custome For Fathers against Fathers For Councels against Councels For Vnity against Vnity For Ceremonies against Ceremoniâ—s For Miracles against Miracles In which how M. Iewel hathe furnished hym selfe let it firste be declared and then afterwarde Considered For Custome If he doubt S. Paule Iew. 101. yet the verie practise and continuall Order of the primitiue Churche fullie declareth what Christe mente And they say Consuetudo est Optima Interpres Legum Custome is the best Interpreter of the Lawe Si De Interpretatione legis quaeratur c. If question happen to be moued touching the meaning of a Law first of all we must see De legibus et Se natuscoÌ„ sulto Longa Consue Si de what order hathe bene vsed in the like Cases in times past For the Custome and practise of the people is the best expounder of the Lawe Against Custome THe Reason that S. Basile maketh of Custome and continuaunce Iew. 49. being wel considered is very weake bothe for many other good and Iust causes