Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	church_n	infallible_a	pillar_n	1,606	5	10.4793	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19150	Epphata to F.T., or, The defence of the Right Reuerend Father in God, the Lord Bishop of Elie, Lord High-Almoner and Priuie Counsellour to the Kings Most Excellent Maiestie concerning his answer to Cardinall Bellarmines apologie, against the slaunderous cauills of a namelesse adioyner, entitling his booke in euery page of it, A discouerie of many fowle absurdities, falsities, lyes, &c. : wherein these things cheifely are discussed, (besides many other incident), 1. The popes false primacie, clayming by Peter, 2. Invocation of saints, with worship of creatures, and faith in them, 3. The supremacie of kings both in temporall and ecclesiasticall matters and causes, ouer all states and persons, &c. within their realmes and dominions / by Dr. Collins ...	Collins, Samuel, 1576-1651.; Bellarmino, Roberto Francesco Romolo, Saint, 1542-1621. Apologia.	1617 (1617)	STC 5561; ESTC S297	540,970	628

continually assistant What then And this is in stead of Scripture To you it may be But first you haue brought vs no such testimonie of the Church vnlesse you think that all that meete in a Church to heare a Sermon or a Homilie as they did Nyssens of whome we spake a little before are a sufficient assembly to counteruaile a Synode which is the Church without question from whome we should looke for determination in such causes euen by your owne confession Yet now you are offended with vs when we call for Synods As for our Sauiours assistance with vs to the end of the world I see not how that prooues praying to Saints but rather sends vs from them to him as to whome we haue not onely easie accesse but himselfe continually watching about vs. Doe you not read in the Cantic how dangerous it is for the spouse of Christ to run a gadding after the flocks of the shepheards though they be called his fellowes or companions but not fellowes in this And againe in the same booke Paululùm cum pertransissem when I had past a little farther that is as both S. Bernard and Guarricus expound it when I had passed the Angels and soared aboue the creatures then I found where to rest vpon God and Christ no doubt and not before And it prooues not first that the Church cannot erre though shee were the pillar of truth that you speake of 1. Tim. 3. 15. Where if it were lawfull to adde any thing to that which hath beene answered to that place of the Apostle ouer and ouer by our writers I would say that he alluded to the two pillars which the posteritie of Seth are saide to haue erected after the flood containing diuers verities both physicall and Theologicall most memorable in them but not authorizing them at all So happily the Church For to her the depositum was committed coram testibus as the Apostle saies in the next Epistle 2. Tim. 2. 2. the truth as I may say engrauen in her as it were in a marble pillar But secondly though the Church were neuer so infallible for her doctrines yet shee might erre in her practise as you confesse of the Pope For euen the Church her selfe is not more priuiledged with you then the Pope from error Though we neuer read him called the pillar of truth as we doe of others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. O most diuine father the pillar and ground of truth saith Damascen to Iordanes the Archimandrite in his Epistle de Trisagio ad eundem And yet he not infallible neither because no Pope Thirdly your examples put them altogether make no Church Which hole shall we stoppe first in your sieue in your argument § 23. Theodorets beginning is very laudable that they often meete to sing hymnes and praise to the Lord of Martyrs If they went any further I can but say with Epiphanius Haeresis est tanquam mala mulier heresie is like a shrewd woman giue her no aduantage no more then to the water no not a little let her not haue her will If shee had beene curbed at the first it had not come to those riots and extremities that since we labour of Though when I cast mine eye vpon Theodorets owne text not as you trenlace and translate it at pleasure I see very little to make for you if ought at all First he reports onely fashion or vse and that not generall which you promise in your title of this seauenth Chapter Doe you see then how quickly you are fallen away from your tearmes which very tearmes were not answerable to the primitiue challenge although you had kept them which called for sanction not for practise for rules of Fathers not routs of people c. Neither does Theodoret say that the people made their prayers to Martyrs but hauing spoken in the last words of the God of Martyrs he addes immediatly of their praying for all such things as they stand in neede of but specifies not to whome they prayed for them whether to God or to the Martyrs To whome then rather then to the God of Martyrs His words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Thirdly if there prayers were made at first to the Martyrs to them also should their thanks for speeding be returned Of which thankes he speakes in these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But your selues in your Liturgyes sieldome returne thankes to the Saints or Martyrs of which I am to speake in another place And indeede if thankes are to be returned to the Saints can it be but that God is in exceeding great danger of loosing his honour with whome such partners shall communicate And as for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it does not force that they prayed to the Martyrs to accompanie them whose companie they might begge as well of God and he licence them Which neuertheles would be thought of how possibly it can stand with another clause of Theodorets in that very chapter viz. the soules of Saints 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 raunge about heauen and their bodies are dispersed into diuers townes and countries How then could they accompanie the poore way-faring man but that Theodoret turnes rhetoricall and meant no other then onely to oppose to the Gentile gods lately by him named or such as intruded vpon the honour of God Antiochus Hadrian Vespasian c. the exaltation of Christian Saints so farre as was compatible with Christs true Relligion And therefore correcting himselfe he is faine to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not absurdly distinguishing betweene dulia and latria as your braines crowe but deprecating the scandall which his former words might seeme to imply Where we haue also the gifts and donaries before spoken of offered to God in plaine and direct tearmes not to the Martyrs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For their Master accepts them saies he not they As for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let the Saints pray for vs as much as you will that is nothing to our question of praying to them And yet Theodoret addes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This shewet that their God is the true God Which confirmes what I said in the former Chapter of Mamas spoken of in S. Basil that Deus Mamantis Mamas his God and so here the Martyrs God they are mentioned to this end to shew that the peoples recourse vnto them was not as to certaine fauourites and vnder-officers of the great King to dispence largesses but as worshippers of the same God euen with losse of their dearest blood lately in their life time in whose honourable seruice themselues reioyced and the rather because dignified by such noble partners and fellow-seruants Lastly shewing of what trades and occupations of life diuerse of those Martyrs were while they liued he reckons vp very meane ones not to call them base and concludes thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is Of such men and women consists the Quire of Martyrs Yet Parsons that hell-hound

Controuersies hath not satisfied so fully in all points as is thought Neither about the contradiction of the Dates nor especially to the contradictions between Iustinian and himselfe one time not consulting with the Pope of Rome about Ecclesiasticall matters as he professes to doe here notwithstanding namely in his so many Nouell Constitutions another time making the Church of Constantinople to be Head of all Churches lib. 24. c. de Sacrosancta Ecclesia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the same againe L. Decernimus 16. eodem titulo which here you would haue him seeme to giue to Rome So as still the law is no law de claris Your oppositions to the contrarie are little worth vnlesse because Hypatius and Demetrius were the messengers no letter could be cog'd with their names or that this must needes be the true Epistle because Pope Nicholas quotes a shred out of it or that Iustinian confesseth he wrote to Pope Iohn in a letter to Agapetus which letter of Iustinians you referring vs onely to Binnius for some would sooner question for Binnius his sake then for the credit of it embrace the other Though for my part I like well of what I finde there that Iustinian calls it the faith quam sequendam DVXIMVS which shewes he depended not vpon the Popes approbation no not for his faith And the Pope receiuing it with willing gratulation as he also there signifies not his assent onely but the whole Church of Romes was added to it which if the Pope were infallible what needed it But the truth is that you haue not yet resolued whether it be the Pope of Rome or the Church of Rome that cānot erre Enough belike if either of thē keepe vp the ball Lastly to returne to the Epistle to Pope Iohn let me aske you what you thinke of the good Latin in it I speake to a Priscian to a Latine Aristarchus Which not onely Iustinian but perhaps Bellisarius himselfe would not haue vttered in those daies As Properamus crescere honorem sedis vestrae for We make hast to increase the honour of your seat They did indeed that meant to doe it by faining To omit that if Iustinian gaue aduancement to the seate it is beholding to the Empire not the Empire to it and so we know from whence the worship of it flowed I haue heard of some that this was the cause why certain would not glosse it because it fauours the opinion that the primacie of Rome is iuris humani or Imperatorij not diuini And yet doe you bring this law against vs As if our selues could more despight the Pope then by so saying But proceed in your eloquence Alieni Catholicae Dei Ecclesiae which sounds well in Greeke not so in Latin and no better that Quae ad vos est vnitas sanctarum ecclesiarum Lastly Petimus vos orare pro nobis prouidentiam Dei nobis acquirere All which your elegancie would neuer digest for good Latine nor worthy of Iustinian if you are the man that you are taken for The testimonie that you insist vpon of the perpetuall integritie of your Romane Sea that as often as any heretikes had risen in those parts they had still beene corrected by the sentence thereof was no warrant for the times to come You did runne well but who hath set you backe Thou knowest not saith Salomon what a day brings forth And if we be forbidden to boast of to morrow how much lesse of the consequence of all times and ages for the blessing of God hitherto affoarded Yet these are your goodly proofes that the Chaire of Rome neuer tottered since because it corrected heresies in Iustinians dayes As if more hath not been said of priuate men as Prosper of S. Austen that where he was present it was impossible for the Councell to goe awry and yet no man would hold him thereupon excused from possibilitie of error much lesse perhaps promise for a whole Church S. Chrysostome saies that diuerse Bishops came to learne of Antioch and went away instructed euen of the people there Neither say saies he that Rome is famous for her greatnesse but shew me a people if you can for your life as diligent at hearing Gods word in Rome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For Sodome had the stately buildings saies he whiles Abraham remained in an obscure tent And he sticks not to call Antioch 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the same place the mother citie of the whole world What greater style doth Iustinian giue to Rome though there were no question of the sinceritie of his style Whereas Antioch otherwise was called Theopolis Gods owne citie which must needs be the largest I trow for regiment And afore Hierusalem inherited that title Ciuitas magni Regis Gods citie or the citie of the great King by our Sauiours own acknowledgement Matth. 5. 35. Againe Nazianz. Ser. Epitaph in Caesarium cals Byzantium that then was the nowe Constantinople 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the first city 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Are you not afraid least that be more then order euen a presidence of authoritie ouer all Europe Whereas Hierome speaking of Rome cals it quondam caput the sometime head of the world No doubt because it was head in the right of the Empire and that changing the spirituall preheminēce of it changed also So vncertaine are these things and not built as you would haue it vpon diuine ordinance but either following the fauour good liking of the Emperours or the other variable streame of causes To conclude your Law about the Vniuersall authority of the Romane Sea for so much as you quote Accursius his glosse heare what a stout obseruation hee hath mode on both sides of that cause Iustinian cals the Bishop of Constantinople fratrem vestrum the Popes brother Parificat ergo therefore he equalls them sayes Accursius But straight againe and with the turning of a hand because the Emperour saies sequi festinans sedem vestram that the Bishop aforesaid labours to follow the iudgement of your seat Minor est ergo therefore he is vnder him Is not this well shot now As if sequi were to come behind in place not to accord in opinion And whereas the Pope sets the Emperours name before his owne in the beginning of his Epistle Iustiniano Iohannes c. Note saies Accursius Papa praemittit Imperatorem quod hodie non faceret the Pope sets the Emperours name before his owne which at this day he would not belike because prouder So much of this Lawe § 55. THE labell and the last of your first chapter is this The Bishop to the Cardinall alleadging the words of the Pataran Bishop suing to Iustinian to restore Sylverius whom he had condemned to banishment which words seeme to spread the Popes authoritie verie farre answered briefly and in his wonted style the style of wisedome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or as the auncient Diuines say of taking the Sacrament

we think he might pray to God at one time to the Saints at another Ruffinus shewes what his custome was Proiectis armis ad SOLITA se vertit auxilia prostratus in conspectu Dei Tu inquit Omnipotens Deus nosti quia in nomine CHRISTI filij tui c. 51. Churches to Saints and Sacrifices to Saints in the Popish relligion though they professe against it and so condemne themselues with their owne mouthes for Idolaters Gregorius de Valentia his friuolous excuses of this matter p. 270 52. The Papists bring no Church-decree for their prayer to Saints when they crake of the Church most What the authoritie of the Church is presuming beyond Scripture p. 271. 272 53. The pillar of truth ibid. vpon which place S. Chrysost saies that Truth is the pillar of the Church 54. Epiphanius compares heresie to a shrew To be curbed at first not let haue her will Most true in this matter about praying to Saints The people once attempting it out of a semblance of zeale the contagion multiplies to such an intolerable height as the Papists themselues cannot chuse but rue it p. 273 55. And yet Theodoret is not absolute for praying to Martyrs ibid. largè 56. Parsons scoffing at some Martyrs of our Church of meane occupations But not Theodoret so nor the holy Scripture p. 275 57. Speeding vpon Supplication to Saints and Angells no good argument of the lawfulnes of that practise ibid. 58. The Bishop not to blame about searching this question both by Scripture and Reason which the Adioynder himselfe doth by deceit ill experiments p. 276 59. Prayer to Saints necessarie to saluation and againe not necessarie The Adioynders giddines p. 276 60. Neither relation of Angells nor reuelation from God such as the Adioynder conceiteth are of force to make the Saints alway fit to be praied to ibid. 61. The Scripture is the touch-stone in all controuersies And it it an idle thing to prate of the Church in any such comparison But specially for the triall of matters of this nature p. 277. 278 62. Practise Custome Multitude how to be valued against Scripture p. 280. 1. King 28. Elias to Baals Priests Quia vos plures estis Idem de se ipso 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 secundum 70. Sed Esa 41. 14. Ne time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cui respondet Luc. 12. 32. 63. The Bishops exposition of S. Austen is defended against the Adioynders iutricate Morosophies p. 281 64. Euery King is SVPREAME HEAD in his Dominions though the Adioynder gnash his teeth at it and that not only to English Protestants but to French Papists p. 282 65. Inuocation of Saints if repelled from Sacrifice repelled from Seruice and so not to be vsed p. 282 66. Slender aduantage of the buriall place after death p. 283 67. More experiments of the Adioynders skill in Latine ibid. 68. Whatsoeuer the burying place aduantage the dead no consequence from thence of praying to Saints out of S. Austens words p. 284 69. No Popish Purgatorie p. 284. 285. 286 70. Lawfull to pray for things alreadie obtained p. 286. Alphons de Castro contra Haeres V. Purgator p. 895. Melius respondemus non semper dubitari de illis quae potuntur c. in eandem sententiam largè where he graunts we may pray for deliuerance from Hell viz. from the iawes of the Lyon and the Tartarean lake although we be perswaded that they are deliuered already whome we pray for 71. Prayer to Saints for the iust price of a newe cloake The Adioynders needy proofes from the practise of a poore Cooke p. 287. CHAP. 8. 72. THe Councell of Laodicea is against praying to Angells Accurseth them that vse it Brandeth them as for sakers of the L. Christ And all this by Theodorets construction of it in his Comm. vpon the Epistle to the Colossians In which Colossians S. Paul first reprooued that vice and it remained there till the time of the Councell of Laodicea saith Theodoret which was held not farre from the Citie Colossi p. 289. 290. 291. 73. S. Chrysostomes notable enforcing of the Apostles text for praying to God onely and neither to Saints nor Angels whome he excludes directly p. 292 293 294 74. The Angel is Christ So Bellarm. himselfe de Mal. 3. lib. 5. c. 1. de Christo Mediatore Other Angels reuerence godly men so farre they are from receiuing worshippe of them And this by Gregorie and their owne writers testimonie p. 295 75. The good offices and attendance that Angels performe to vs by Gods appointment prooue not that wee may pray to them but to God that sends them and sets them on worke p. 296 76. Of euery mans particular Angell Chrysost apud Melissam lib. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 facit malos mortales non habere custodem Angelum nisi tenebrarū quòd quidam angeli natales 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 à nobis nosve ab illis Molina's smart deuise that seuerall brotherhoods of Fryers haue seuerall Angels forsooth to attend them c. ibid. 77. Haeresie a shrew by Epiphanius description of her To be yoakt at first and not let haue her will She will haue the last word whatsoeuer come of it ibid. 78. Angels not our gouernours specially in the new Testament Themselues ministring spirits to S. Paul Therefore not our Masters p. ead 297 79. The Adioynders wriglings to shift off the Canon of the Councell of Laodicea but all in vaine ibid. 298 80. Worship of Angels more directly condemned by the Auncient Fathers then of the Saints The cause why Yet that falling this cannot stand euen à maiori ibid. 81. Theodoret violates not the Canon of Laodicea nor his own doctrine deliuered in his Commentaries Hee prayes not to Saints And yet if he did his rule were to bee aboue his practise p. 298 82. The Adioynder cauills the Bishop for oppugning their praying to Saints by Reasons yet himselfe brings most pitifull ones why we should doe so p. 288. 289 83. The Adioynder so impious as if the Saints cannot heare vs to question how Christ himselfe can in his manhood Esa 59. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Adioynder saith Yea. ibid. 84. Vnlike comparisons vsed by the Adioynder p. 300 85. The Angels discerne not the secrets of hearts ibid. 86. The Adioynders examples slow to prooue his intents His authorities rather more quoting that for Athanasius which quotes Athanasius quaest 23. And yet against himselfe Cordium cognitor solus est Deus Nec enim vel Angeli cordis abscondita videre possunt quaest 27. ad Antiochum p. 301 87. Martyrs pray onely for the Church in generall p. 302 88. S. Gregories speculum and how the Saints see all things in God p. 303 89. The Angels are not said to offer our prayers to God ibid. 304. 90. The Rhemists make one Angell to mediate for another and one heauenly Saint for another because else they cannot construe that in

yet he talkes of a King if you be remembred one time as chasing away all wickednesse with his eye suppose heresies and all another time enacting and decreeing righteousnesse sculpens iustitiam c. 8. which cannot be without the cheife part of it that is relligion as we read in Theodoret. l. 4. c. 5. that Valentinian taught all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beginning with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all equitie as Salomon here saies beginning with piety another time as one against whom there is no rising vp and with many such like elogiums he aduances him as supreame in each kinde Neither Salomon onely but Aristotle himselfe as if it were the lawe of nature in the third of his politicks Assuerus Cyrus the King of Nineue were they not all supreame ordainers in relligion who neuerthelesse were strangers to the law of Moses This Eudoemon might haue told you who twits the Bishop for ioining those aforesaid with the kings of Israel Belike then they are distinct Therefore not onely Israel or they that were guided by the law of Moses but meere Naturalists haue acknowledged thus much that supremacie is the kings by originall right and not of ceremony So as our Sauiour said once about circumcision Non ex Mose sed ex Patribus in like sort here It is neither ceremonie nor iudiciall neither from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rom. 9. this authoritie of Kings in all causes and ouer all persons which you so carpe And if it be lawfull as you tell vs to argue from the old Testament to the newe by way of signe to the thing signified we haue enough in that kind to maintain our assertion though wee had no other argument For who found a type in Nabuchodonosor euen now first fierce against Daniel and Daniels God afterward making lawes as zealously in his behalfe The ouen that was heated to consume the three children consumed their aduersaries And so Daniels Lyons prepared against him deuoured his accusers These are types if you beleeue S. Austen of heathen Emperours turning Christian and countenancing religion with all their might as before they vsed the aduantage of their place onely to suppresse it and destroy it I might tell you of other types that haue gone before in the old testament touching the supremacie of Kings appertaining to the newe As Abrahams harnessing 318. houshold seruants against Kedar-Laomer for the redeeming of Lot which is a type of Constantine say the Fathers of a certain Councell managing and mustering iust so many Bishops in the Nicene Synode to the confusion of Arius The lyon that slew the transgressing Prophet is a figure of Leo the Christian Emperour suppressing heresies c. as Varadatus whome they call excellentissimus Monachus in his Epistle to Leo aforesaid construes it In a word though you be impudent and your fore-head full of blasphemies yet mee thinks you should bee ashamed to bewray your selues so much as to affirme that Kings lost any part of their stroke by our Sauiours appearing in the new Testament as needs they must if the authoritie was but ceremoniall or iudiciall either which they exercised before And therefore I spare from further confutation § 39. As for that the Emperours in the new Testament were heathen and so neither by Christ nor his Apostles obeyed I hope Sir it is enough they were not resisted And if they made no good lawes yet they might haue made them and the Church in such case had beene bound to obey them Neither do the Bishops I trow alwaies preach the truth in which case S. Austen and S. Cyprian giue vs leaue to abandon them So is it when Kings transported by error forsake their dutie yet forfeit not their supremacy Though our Sauiour and his Apostles did no more turne away frō the edicts of Princes cōcerning relligion then from the Scribe and the Pharisee and the chaire of Moses it selfe which you perhaps would haue heard and obeyed in all things Will you say therefore that the chaire was not supreame in those matters To omit that if Princes had been neuer so impious for the time present yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gal. 3. the Scripture that foresees might haue confirmed the type that went of their authoritie in spirituall matters euen in the old Testament against such time as God should raise vp better in the new Yet you say that in the new Testament there is not the least syllable to that purpose Not Rom. 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gods Minister v. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. 6. which is rather more then the other but still Gods or to God belonging And not in Gods matters trow you In terrorem malis that is to hereticks and all In laudem bonis yet no goodnesse without true relligion in S. Pauls estimation who saies soone after that whatsoeuer is without faith is sinne the last verse of the next chapter So Coge intrare Luk. 14. to the spirituall banquet that is Kings in speciall haue this compelling power saies S. Austen often So Gal. 5. where heresies are reckoned among the works of the flesh which flesh at least the kings authoritie stretches to according to the similitude that you are wont to quote out of Gregorie Nazianzene of the flesh and the spirit though Athanasius Orat. de incarnat verbi makes the King to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the vnderstanding part that sets all on worke Lastly 1. Tim. 2. 1. where shewing that God would haue all men saued the Apostle from thence argues to prayers for Kings knowing Kings if they be Christian are the notablest instruments to worke the worlds saluation Can this be if Kings be not supreame in relligion and the causes thereof as wel in the new as in the old Testament For least you say they are to doe these things indeed but at the Clergies becke and subordinate to them they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 supreame Magistrates in the places that assigne them what to doe Rom. 13. 1. 1. Pet. 2. 13. c. But now if a man should aske you where your Pontificall supremacie is established in the new besides that you may fetch it by authoritie frō Moses which we may not and so from Aaron his sonnes nay à maiori saies Bell. de Pontif. Rom. l. 4. c. 16. though Moses figured not the Pope but Christ Heb. 3. 2. and so likewise Aaron Heb. 5. 4. yet perhaps you would quote Luk. 22. Vos autem non sic for that is more pregnant then Duo gladij in the same chapter or Qui maior vestrum est fiat sicut minimus or Regnum meum non est de hoc mundo or for loue to Peter Non dominantes Cleris 1. Pet. 5. 3. Doe not these shew the meaning of Pasce oues meas § 40 You say againe the Bishop equiuocates in this that though Dauid and Peter were both called to

is first very insolent for I beginne with your later that faith should be a meritour at Gods hands or a meritresse if you will haue it so I pray correct me if I speake amisse for you see whether your absurdities lead me wheras Charity not faith is the fons meriti the actuall deseruer by condignity at least as your selues hold for ex longinquo is another thing and expraeuiâ dispositione c. Where in truth you are so dazeled about this merit of Peters that you say you know not what ascribing that to his charity which is more proper to his faith and againe that to his faith which belongs to his charitie To be cheife in feeding you ascribe to his Loue to Amas me plus his Which is true in our Sauiours sense for exciting his care not in yours to inuest him in the supreame iurisdiction which rather requires the priuiledge of freedome from errour And here his deseruing to be the rock or the principall for bearing sway you impute it to his faith which is too yong to be a deseruer if it be not otherwise accommodated euen by your own doctrine This is one absurdity therefore Secondly that he should merit to be the rocke of the Church whereas a man canot merit that is not first in the Church as yourselues will not deny and so presupposeth the foundation is laid But in no sort can one merit to be the foundation thereof himselfe As S. August often shewes that the Redeemer of the world did not merit the coniunction of his flesh with the deity but beeing inuested once therewith then merited for vs and wrought saluation Whom although we should grant to haue merited to be the foundation of the Church the Iudge of the world c. yet you are not ignorant how it is held by your owne diuines namely per titulum secundarium hauing right to it before out of the worth of his hypostasis which in S. Peter is nothing so But especially if you will take to that of Maximus whom you quote a little after that S. Peter for rowing in a frigot or small boate was made Master and gouernour of the Vniuersall Church for what merit could there be of that in this And suppose that there is an orderly promotion among shipmen from the Lower roomes to the higher till they be Pilots and Admiralls c. or in like sort that the good Deacon gets himself a faire degree as S. Paul speaks to be made Priest Priest a Bishop Bishop a metropolitan c. yet you speake of a promotion in diuersissimo genere which is too too vncouth that S. Peter for steering his materiall vessell at the sea should be preferred to sit in the highest place of the Church and congregation of God Thirdly if this were true that you auouch of his merits S. Peter should not only haue merited for himselfe but for as many monsters miscreants as euer sate after him in that sea Which you doe well to shroud vnder the merits of S. Peter least they appeare too too vgly naked in themselues sauing that pallium breue as the Prophet Esay speaks their couering is too short and non est satis nobis vobis Matth. 25. What For them that beleeue not for them that apprehend not that concurre not in the least sort yea for them that were not borne when S. Peter liued could S. Peter merit As for Hildebrands dictates they are no gospel His words are neither slanders whē they are directed against vs nor testimonies of any force when they are produced for you And will you allowe no qualification of S. Hilaries word Whereas they that haue but tasted the auncient writers know that to merite is to obtaine and procure though by grace and fauour and no further to be vrged He attained then saith S. Hilary a supereminent glory Which glory may be in many things beside his primacie as the Bishop answered you of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in S. Basils authority and calling it gloriam it seemes he rather points to our Sauiours approbation then to any reall preferment collated vpon Peter Gloria is in fame in predication and report as euen Tully will teach you Orat. pro Marcello which is nothing to office and to installment § 7. As for the coupling of S. Peters person with his faith his faith with his person which is the second point of the twaine about which you sweat and trauell sore casting vp mole-hils and mustering your Metaphysicks long vnskoured the Bishop neuer dreamt as you fantastically imagine that S. Hilary should giue this to a fleeting shadow or to faith without a subiect like your Accidents in the Eucharist which you welcome as well as S. Iames his hoste doth his guests that biddes them warme themselues without a fire feede without victualls and so you them to sit down without a chaire or a stoole Not so But if faith be the proper foundation of the Church as S. Hilary implies by his fiue-fold repetition Haec fides haec fides c. then was Peter in behalfe of his faith onely pronounced by our Sauiour the foundation of the Church Which is another thing then to be preferred for the merit of his faith to be the Churches foundation as you fondly dreame For so it might fall out that he should still remaine the foundation of the Church though he had cast of his faith wherewith he beganne which will not stand with S. Hylaries conceit of it and accordingly none other are at any time to bee reckoned the foundations of the Church but they that shall tread in the steps of faithfull Peter howsoeuer otherwise they may come neere him in calling For where is more promised to Peters successors by vertue of meere succession then to Abrahams children Rom. 4. Nay the adoptiue branch may not challenge so much to it selfe as the naturall Rom. 11. Succession saith Greg. Nazianzen is oft-times between contraries Sickenesse succeeds health night succeeds day so an vnworthy Bishop succeeds a worthy as Nazianzen instanceth So your Popes may Peter Irenaeus saith warily that we must obey those Priests in the Church of God which deriuing their succession from the Apostles together with their succession in Office haue receiued the certain gift of truth lib. 4. cap. 43. § 8. By this also the other places of S. Hilary are declared where he proceeds to call Peter the foundation of the Church as you expound them his person I graunt if ought at all as the Bishop also meant not a qualitie without a subiect which is your chimaera but in respect of his vertue not of his authoritie singular And as all the faithfull may come more or lesse neere to Peters faith so they haue all more or lesse a part in this prerogatiue as you heard lately out of Origen yet still without disturbing the Churches aray Neither perhaps

semper quod filius postulat That suite hath euermore easie speeding which the sonne makes Christ to wit Neither does S. Ambrose mention without cause the sitting of Christ at the right hand of his Father to whet his mediation Which S. Paul had mentioned for the very same cause in the place that hee comments vpon Rom. 8. 34. And indeed but to Christ it was neuer said to any Sede à dexteris meis sit on my right hand Hebr. 1. 13. Which by collation of places shewes that there is none other intercessor for vs but he Lastly thus S. Ambrose Vt de Deo patre securi Christo filio eius in eorum fide laetemur That beeing confident of God the Father and Christ his Sonne we may reioyce in the faith that we haue in them So as you see faith and aduocation goes onely still with Christ not with the Saints § 21. NExt is Ruffinus lib. 2. historiae c. 33. who sayes not that Theodosius did inuoke the Saints but as the Bishop answered you and you cannot take away that at the tombes of Martyrs he craued helpe of God by the Saints intercossion Which although it suppose their suing for vs yet it is not coupled with our praying to them What you bring out of Chrysostome who names not Theodosius much lesse points at this fact of his as you dreame both here and numb 50. but onely speakes vniuersally of the Emperours hath been replyed to before We dresse no Crambe Hee names Constantine And if he meant Theodosius why does he not name him But whomsoeuer he meanes they may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 need the holy ones suppose the Angels and yet not pray to them nor to Saints neither and yet whether they doe or no it makes no lawe Heare S. Cyprian orat de lapsis Mandant aliquid Martyres fieri Sed si scripta non sunt in Domini lege quae mandant antè est vt sciamus illos de Deo impetrâsse quod postulant tunc facere quod mandant That is Doe the Martyrs commaund a thing to be done But if that which they commaund be not written in Gods lawe it is reason we should first know that God allowes what they aske before we doe what they command So as not onely the actions of mortall men though neuer so godly but the commands of Martyrs appearing from heauen must be examined by the law of God ere they may be accomplished by S. Cypr. iudgement Antè est vt sciamus c. Yet you back it by Sozomen lib. 7. histor cap. 24. out of whom that which you bring is but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Sozomene it is said or reported though you amplifie it by commonly reported Well what is it First you leaue out Theodosius his going into the Church to pray to God and to none else that he names in that part of the sentence This you dissemble and leaue out as not concerning the matter though nothing more who charge the Bishop so causlesly and sencelesly else where for the same fault yea when it is no fault Secondly as for the Temple which Theodosius built in the honor of S. I. Baptist we might aske you how that agrees with S. Austens Templum Martyribus non ponimus You will say it was called by the Baptists name onely and in memory of him So it may be he but named or remembred the Baptist in his prayer as he had good occasion conuersing in the Church that might put him in minde of him You haue both built Churches and offered sacrifice though you cloake it neuer so much to him and to Martyrs contrary to S. Austen For doe you not offer sacrifice in the honour of the Virgin You will not deny it How then does this differ from the Collyridian heresie To omit howe much more hainous a matter it is to offer Christ our Lord in honour of his Mother then a cake as they The like I might say of vowes which you make to Saints by way of special honour which the aforesaid Valentia seeking fowre wayes to iustifie is most fowle in all One time he saies that the Saints are called for witnesses of what we vow to God A small prerogatiue and yet more then need too euen this Another time that wee vowe to God indeed but for loue to the Saints As if God were not louely enough or had not right enough to our vowes but for the Saints sake A third time that we doe this because we thinke the Saints are well pleased with such seruice when it is performed to God But by this reason we may as well vowe to Saints in earth and in mortalitie Lastly ' he denies it to be an act of relligion if it be done to the Saints of which hereafter As for Theodosius his calling S. Iohn Baptist to be his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it might be materialiter that the pietie which hee had shewed in decking the Temple with the name of the Baptist for distinction sake might bee mentioned by him to God to mooue him to fauour as Ezechias and Nehemias and diuerse more haue done the like And yet not trusting in their owne righteousnesse neither but by some proportion of their indeauour and his good acceptance In this sense S. Iohn Baptist might be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and as our workes are saide to pray for vs vitalis oratio Bellarmine acknowledges another that eleemosyna orabit pro te so this an imploration of S. Iohn Baptist renuing the memorie of the Temple that bore his name before God in his prayer The starres are said to fight against Sisera Heauen is called to reioyce ouer Babylon So all the Saints out of their brotherly sympathie are our 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at all times vocati nec vocati and yet when wee call for them we may call for them of God without praying to them Ille educit thesauros ex abyssis This therefore though there were no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prooues no praying to Saints Whereas you say that if we pray to S. Iohn Baptist why not to others We make no question but the reason is alike but you haue heard our answer to Sozomens storie which at another time no man disclaimes more then your selues Sozomenus multa mentitur in historia Greg. de Val Tom. 4. Comm. Theol. p. 1952. The like iudgement giues Bellarmine both of him and Socrates T. 2. edit Ingolstad anni 1605. p. 487. and remember I pray you that he saies Theodosius went in to pray to God so as if he prayed to the Baptist it was besides his purpose § 22. The Bishops reasons against prayer to Saints because we haue no such warrant in the holy Scripture and we know not if they heare vs or no c. how doe you refute The Church of God say you the spouse of Christ the pillar of truth hath done it before vs with whome our Sauiour hath promised to be

hath done nothing in his Apologie in doing no more then so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he had as good made no Apologie at all By the way it is pretty and worth the noting how you report the Bishops words Rex expectat in quadringentis annis c. though de quadringentis would haue fitted you better which you quote in the margent as the Bishops owne words and like enough to be so not in quadringentis But this is your Latine when you list to speake like your selfe and reforme Bishops for theirs If it be true as you say that the Fathers of the three first hundred yeares after Christ are so few and so scantie remaining to our daies you reckon but 7. or 8. though I suppose there are diuers more yet what ill luck haue you with them that can finde no footing of all your new-fangled superstition in any of their workes Not in Tertullian not in Origen not in Irena Ignace Lactance Melito Cyprian Iustine Clemens Arnobius Methodius Minutius the Cyrills Dionysius Athenagoras Theophilus c. not in Eusebius himselfe who liued there anewst and enclined to the Platonicks as did some others of the forenamed ranke Which Platonicks are thought to be somewhat fauourable to your fancie of worshipping Saints aboue the rest of the Philosophers And if the Fathers as you say write so few in an age does not this shew that the square of our faith is the Scripture not the Fathers for how if the Fathers had wrote nothing at all As of diuerse points you confesse your selfe they did not Num. 63. and Num. 66. And in the beginning of this Chapter you would make vs beleeue that the Apostles themselues had no commaundement for writing Might not the Fathers pennes much more haue stood still Yet you adde that the after-ages abounded with writers when persecution ceased and many worthy Volumes were spread abroad into the world It may well bee but as heresie is confounded many times by writing so some errours will creepe in withall and hardly can it be eschewed Abundabit scientia but abundabit iniquitas too Daniel the one our Sauiour Christ the other each of the same times of the world of the Church The Elephant oppresseth Eleazar in the fall So falshood gets some ground of truth euen in seeming to be foyled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was our Sauiours depositum which he left to the Church witnesse he in the Nicene Councell Apud Socr. lib. 1. cap. 8. not ventilation not disputation Wherein I may boldly say that truth of relligion comes in as much hazard to bee lost as our Sauiour was in the crowde and concourse at Ierusalem As in the ouerflowes of Nilus the corne feilds are the better and the fatter for it but serpents and Crocodyles come in amaine so whiles many pennes walke the originall puritie is lesse preserued It will be alwayes true which Tully saith Quò propiùs aberant à diuina progenie c. so from the Primitiue times eò acutiùs cautiùsque vena videbant recta tenebant which posteritie fayled in § 45. When you aske if we would not receiue the signe of the Crosse as proceeding from antiquitie vnles all the Fathers had stood for it why should we hold you long in suspence It is the vniforme consent of the godly Fathers that endeares the vse of that memorial to vs and had onely certaine singulars like starres in a darke night deliuered their opinion of it it should neuer haue found such entertainment at our hands for the antiquities sake And therefore you must muster a squadron of Fathers though I see it be troublesome vnto you for prayer to Saints not come in with your snatches and your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here and there if you will carrie it by the Fathers Where it may please you to remember that in the Conference at Hampton Court which you quoted so lately the Bishop that you now write against brought Tertullian for the Crosse and the vse therof in baptisme in immortali lauacro you haue neither author for Inuocation of Saints so auncient nor piece of an author Yet you compare this with the signe of the crosse How vnfitly § 46. The Bishops you say are giuen to teach the Church if they may erre therein the Church may be deceiued and so all is marred As if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Austen doth not tell you of erring Bishops of deceiuing Bishops which the people fondly relyed vpon he in vaine recalling them and denouncing that the Bishops authority is no sanctuary to the erroneous See lib. de pastor cap. 10. Saepe hoc dicunt heretici securi sequimur Episcopos The heretikes haue this often in their mouthes 〈◊〉 are safe so long as we follow our Bishops It is a signe of heresie with S. Austen to follow the Bishops and their iudgement securely viz. without looking any further And in the 7. Chapter of the said booke hee applyes that to the Bishops of his time out of Ezek. 34. Quod errabat non reuocastis the wandring sheepe ye haue not called backe What remedy are the Bishops now against error And Si Episcopus constitutus in ecclesia catholica non bonam rationem reddit de oue quam non quaesierit errantem de grege Dei qualem rationem redditurus est haereticus viz. Episcopus qui non solùm non reuocauit ab errore sed etiam impulit in errorem Doe you see that Bishops doe not onely not bring from errour but lead into error yea thrust impell cap. 10. of the aforesaid And yet you thinke the onely antidote of Church errors lyes in the Bishops How much better S. Peter Habemus firmiorem sermonem propheticum We haue a surer testimony namely the holy Scripture not onely then the authority of any Bishops can be to preserue from error but then a voyce from heauen for of that speaks S. Peter which Satan may counterfeit and so likewise fayne himselfe a Bishop as well as change himselfe into an Angel of light Therefore S. Hilary saies that Christ would not let his Disciples beare witnes of him and yet no meane persons because he was to be approoued by other manner of witnesses namely the Law and the Prophets that is the Scriptures And S. Chrysostome Hom. 9. in cap. 3. ad Coloss Exhorting the lay-men to prouide them bookes the medicines of their soules as he calls them bids them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not to tarrie for another Master not the Prelate himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for he hides many things many times from them for enuie or for vain-glory Whereas the Scripture layes all open sincerely Is this a small prerogatiue of Scriptures aboue the Doctors S. Austen also cap. 11. of the booke aforequoted after he had lodg'd his sheepe like a good pastor in the mountaines of Israel that is as he interprets it in the authority of the diuine Scriptures he thus bespeakes them Ibi pascite vt securè

of the Law the Law being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lex factorum the lawe of deedes as it is often called Can any flie ouer this not a mud wall but a wall of diamond with his wings of Counsels and voluntary obseruations though neuer so nimble and swift otherwise Gregorie Nazianzen is of the same minde to omit other Fathers Orat. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Let no man beare himselfe more legall then the Law more lofty then the commaundement more straight then the leuell or rule it selfe Therefore let there be no Counsels as additaments to the Lawe No though vowes and Monkerie in suo totali were graunted in all the whole substance of it in pouerty chastitie and obedience For as here we heare all is comprehended vnder due whatsoeuer it be all is no more then our debt to the law Monkerie it selfe with the appertenances But againe many obserue chastitie pouerty and obedience without the Vow which perhaps makes Chrysostome finde Monasticall accuratenesse and strictnesse so often euen in populous Cities villages and townes This is not saies he one time a doctrine only for them that lodge abroad in the fields or in the toppes of hils and steep mountaines c. as the people supposed fondly crying out as the Adioynder doth here that such perfection as he exhorted them to in his Sermon was for Monks onely In another place Abraham had wife and children saies he yet perfecter then any Monke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more accurate of his wayes more exact in his courses then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they which at this day haue taken vp their lodging in the tops of the hils at this day saies he and yet we heard before how resplendent the Monks were in his time like Angels incarnate ex hom 8. in Matth. Of another manner of stampe I wisse then the Abby-coynes in Poperie I meane their Friers longè diuersi commatis of whom we read notwithstading that they had vera monetaria true mints to coyne money in Had Chrysostomes so or could this haue beene heard of without horror then Lastly that Monks may be without these three viz. pouertie chastitie and obedience I will not say as I might for that yours haue been so Famous for faction first so as Contention if she were lost must be found in the Monastery Ariosto'es deuice where was obedience all this while For pouertie so as you heard euen now insomuch as they had mints and are they for poore folkes As for chastity I will spare my pen and not triumph in your shame as I might at large nor vnkindly gall the Readers modestie suffice it that true Monkerie vnreprooueable Monkerie may bee without these not onely your counterfeit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the ensuing shew § 34. Athanasius ad Dracontium of his times Multi Monachi sunt parentes liberorum And Quisque vbi volet decertet That is Many Monks are fathers of children Let euery man trie masteries as his owne mind serues him Making it first free to professe Monkerie or no and in that profession allowing the libertie euen of getting children S. August de Haeres cap. 40. Catholica Ecclesia plurimos Monachos clericosque habet vtentes vxoribus that is more then eoniugatos that by the way I may note somewhat for Ministers marriages propria possidentes In English thus The Catholike Church hath many Monks and Clerks in it meaning Ministers that both vse their wiues and possesse goods in proper Of Chrysostome I told you before Hom. 8. in ad Hebr. that if marriage and Monkerie may not stand together all is spoild Therefore your Church hath spoild all or there is nothing left vn-spoild in your Church that hath diuided these As for the Canon that forbids Monks to marrie Calched Concil can 16. it is a great deale younger and we search truth by the originall times Besides how gently doth that Canon censure them And so likewise the Virgins that marrie after profession or dedicatiō 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is kept for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The libertie of courtesie or relaxation is reserued for the Bishop of the place So as still the Monke may keepe his wife and the Virgin her husband As for Pouertie Alvarus Pelagius de planctu Eccl. lib. 1. cap. 46. Abdication of proprietie is not essentiall to Monkerie For in Egypt and Palaestine the Monks there vsually both bought and sold Yea Paulus ille summus Monachus proprium habuit testamentum fecit Paul the Arch-Monke had somewhat proper and made a will This speakes Alvarus of the Monks of Egypt which were those whome Chrysostome so praised euen now and from whome Bellarmine would commend his owne And for Obedience which is the third Caietane makes such a diuorce betweene perfection and that in 2. 2. Quaest 86. art 5. that he preferres the Bishop there afore the Monke though the Monke liues in farre more obedience then the Bishop as we all know Finally cannot the Pope dispence with his owne selfe for continence pouertie and obedience Hostiensis will tell you so no man disagreeing from him Nay how rare a thing is it for the Pope to obey Yet you knowe the Pope cannot cast away the height of his Pontificall perfection by any meanes Yea he dispences with others too as well as with himselfe and you approoue the practise Therfore these are not linked in so neere a band as you would make folkes beleeue but are separable from one another the vowe from Monkerie aske but Salomon of this Ecclesiast 5. or Dauid Psal 119. and Monkery from the vowe and Perfection from them all while your Euangelicall Counsels appeare no where § 35. Which things beeing so why should you traduce our men so bitterly in your numb 26. for abandoning the Monasteries that coope of infamies and taking to them wiues May the Pope doe this out of the libertie of his fanci● though materia voti be the same it was at first and shall not these be borne with whome the dangerousnes of the times and the reformation of their iudgements and the exigence of the cause acquireth from your slaunder Reade Theodoret l. 4. c. 26. Ecclesiast histor of Aphraates the Monke abandoning his cell and going abroad into the world to intend preaching Whose answer to the Emperour challenging him for it may be ours to your selfe in defence of those men whom you carpe so virulently But you alleadge Dionysius vnto vs de Ecclesiast Hierarch c. 10. and you say he liued in the Apostles times and boldly you call him S. Pauls disciple Thus you thinke you may perswade your schollers within the grate doubly captiued that haue neither mind to study nor opportunity to search nor yet iudgement to discerne that the doubtfull Dionysius is a man of such authoritie Who suppose he were most absolute and most authenticall what sayes he euen as you relate him That the Monks of

with names or glorious titles vnles it be nomen cum fide the holding of his name with the not denying of his faith ver 13. of the same Chapter Whereas the Papists leauing to be called by his name the name Christians which the Scripture onely recordeth may well be suspected to haue renounced his faith too giuen him ouer cleane For the holy Ghost wee see couples them both together § 41. Yet the Adioynder is peremptory num 32. that the name Catholique cānot be vsurped by heretikes but is a most true and proper note of the true Church and num 33. that the name and the thing expressed by the name doe alwaies so concurre that they are neuer separated And againe num 34. that heretikes or hereticall congregations neuer did or could vsurpe the name Catholique but the same hath alwayes beene and euer shall bee peculiar to the true Church and that the name and the thing signified by the name doe euer concurre Thus he But what such priuiledge I wonder hath the name Catholique supra omne nomen aboue all names els or why should that only cleaue to truth and the truth to it whereas all other names may be diuorced from it May the name Christian be rent from the Church by the furiousnes of Iulian labouring to extinguish the whole body of Christians and yet Christianity suffer no disparagement thereby as Theodoret witnessed in most plentifull manner a little before and cannot the name Catholique be borrowed of the Church by the hand of some crafty intruder or other but the Church shall no longer be her selfe Yet the name Christian implyes Christ in it which is the head that we hold by and the Prince of our Congregation Secondly Scripture recordeth it and thirdly it seemes giuen by diuine inspiration 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Neither of which agrees to the name Catholique No nor yet to the Gnostiques a high name too and from the abundance of knowledge which they attributed to themselues Whom S. Paul is thought to twit 1. Tim. 6. 12. giuing vs withall to vnderstand that there may be falshood in names 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is the falsly called Gnostiques Of Apostolike Angelike and if there bee any other I might say the same Why should the name Catholique be more sacred then they why lesse exposed to hereticall vsurpation For Catholique and Apostolike either draw in an equalitie or at least Apostolike is not inferiour to Catholique Angelike one would thinke were aboue them both And if the name Catholique still goes where the true Church goes how are the Catholiques themselues not Catholiques or not knowne by that name as sometimes it fared witnesse S. Austen but transformed into the titles of certain newfangled sectaries the Traducians the Macarians the rest of that rabble before rehearsed Is it like that the heretikes wil not call thēselues Catholiques as the Adioynder pretends whē they take from Catholiques the very name Catholike and cloth them with other of their own deuising Though S. Austen most directly contra Epistol Fundamenti cap. 4. the booke that the Adioynder himselfe here quotes sayes that omnes haeretici se Catholicos dicivolunt all heretikes would be called Catholiques and Lactantius Institution lib. 4. cap. 30. that all heretikes suam esse potissimùm Catholicam putant Ecclesiam they thinke themselues Catholiques and the Catholique Church theirs in a prime degree How then shall we beleeue that of Cyrill of Hierusalem for wee will suppose it to be Cyrills for this once which Bellarmine first alleadged and the Adioynder here referres vs to that no heretake will presume to call his sect Catholique or to point to his own faction if the question be askt of the Catholique Church as if that word were such a scare to him Does not this shew that the Bishop most aduisedly answered to those authorities when hee answered in the words which the Adioynder carps here that De nomine lis nulla inter nos intercedit sed vtripotiùs è re nomen habeant We stand not vpon the name it hath beene shewed in the precedents that there is no cause to stand vpon names but which of vs hath the most right to inherite the name the glorious name as S. Iames sayes quod inuocatur super nos by which we are called As for S. Austen he might say that tenet me postremò ipsum nomen Catholicae reckoning the name Catholique among the last arguments which perswaded him to continue in the vnity of the Church and preferring like enough diuerse forcibler before it or els this would haue mooued him but little Nay when the Bishop tells you that in case it were graunted for he doth but graunt it wee beleeue it not that it is true as you say when search is made after the Catholique Church wee point to your Church yet you cannot deny on the other side but if the Catholique Reformed be asked after a man will point to ours and not thinke of yours for any such mention does not this abate your lofty swell as much as the other sond supposall serued to pricke you vp in pride For Catholique reformed is a more tollerable addition and more agreeable to all good rules of reason and of faith then Catholique Romane is at any hand which is your monstrous contradiction in adiecto as I may so call it euen within two words And as Catholique to Christian by the verdict of Pacian which you are wont so to stand vpon or Apostolike to Catholique in the most Orthodox style and some auncient Creeds Credo sanctam Catholicam Apostolicam So Catholique to be determined by Reformed Catholique after that such a sea of corruptions hath flowed in euen by your owne confessions I pray what repugnance hath it either to sound reason or to auncient custome or to any good ground and principle of the Church or how doth it not iustifie our Church aboue yours to be that Vbi cubas which wee so seeke for § 42. But Satyrus beeing cast a shore you say amongst a company of schismatikes askt if they agreed with the Catholique Bishops expounding himselfe to meane the Church of Rome Where first you see the prerogatiue is not the Bishops of Rome but the Churches of Rome if any be Else why doth he fall so suddenly from the mention of Bishops to the mention of a Church but that he meanes a Church containing in it many Bishops and therefore not the Sea of Rome precisely as now it is taken But as for the point in hand whether the Romane faith and the Catholique bee all one because Satyrus interpreted his meaning in that sort me thinks the Bishop most compleatly answereth him and so vntieth the knot that you would faine tie vs in as he yet tieth you fast enough in a farre tougher knot at the same instant Sciebat enim c. For hee knewe saies the Bishop that the Bishop of Rome was then a Catholique a

the father in ren ēbrance of me and my pretious and powerfull sacrifice S. Chrysostome also saying to this purpose that the time of praying is while the King is set i. during the communion and so long he graunts any thing I thinke the Bishop will not diuie her that 〈◊〉 Ambrose might very lawfully haue d●sired the people to pray to God to represent Theodosius in his children though S. Ambrose say Tu solu● 〈◊〉 gandu●… 〈◊〉 c Therefore Tu solu● 〈◊〉 du● may stand with prayer to Saints Adioyned Another shift of the Adioynd Consuted three wayes 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Con● Neocaesar Can. 4. Adioynd num 34. Cap. 3. hulus Basil Orat. in Iulittam Nyssen Orat. 1. itemque 2. de Orat. dom Chrysost hom 3. in Gen. Damase l. 3. de side Orthod c. 24. And Clichtoueus in his Cōment vpon Damas calls it completam definitionem orationis a perfect de sinition of prayer Sylvester Nauarrus diuers other Papists retaine the same Indiuidua sunt insimta Christ is better then tenne Angels that is then all saith Albinus Alcuin De peenitent Christ fits at the right hand of God to make request for vs. De ciuit dei lib. 8. c. 27. Sic Greg. de Val. T. 3. Comm. Disp 6. q 11. puncto 5. de Idololatria Vide eundem Greg. vbi suprà frigidissimè hoc alia defendentem Atque iterum in libris de rebus fidei controuerfis lib. singulari de Idolol eadem ad verbum repetentem * Nehem. 15. 14. Remember me O my God con●●r●…g what I haue done for the house of God c. in fine Remember me O my God for good Cant. 1. 7. Cant. 3. 5. If the Church be of such authoritie for beeing the p●ll●r of truth what shall we say of him that beares the Church it selfe not the Pope but Chrysostome● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In concione apud Georg. Alex. in vita cius Ioseph Antiq. l. c. 3. Ex 8. lib. de Graec. morbis curandis Contr. Collyrid In his Three Conversions of England but namely part 3. in the moneth of March Chap. 7. It followes not-onely that c. but that Saintsheare the prayers that are made vnto them seeing that they obtaine the graunt therof and giue succour to their suppliants Adioynd numb 45. De scriptor Ecclesias● * Full of faith and reason * A fitof contradiction between the Adioynd himselfe in num 29. and num 55. where he calls it a necessarie duty vnlesse he mean necessarie but not to saluation to destruction rather a De ciuit dei * Concil Tolet. 3. can 11. Irreligi●sa Consuetudo est quam vulgut agere consu●…t in se●●i●●tatibus Sanctorum Both Custome and Multitude are to be condemned if they be wrong Cic. de leg ex 12. tab To balke the Law of God is to decline to heresie Apud Theodoret. hist l. 4. c. 1● Apud Gelas Cyzic Apud Lip●… In Epist 5. Cant Can. loc com de Pont. Rom. autho rit a De Orat. dominic Obserue that word Obseruance For by that Greg. de Val. his distinction is taken away that denyes the worship of relligion to Saints but graunts the worship of Obseruance See hereafter Cap. 8. b Aquine further quotes Deut. 4. Haec est sapientia vestra c. and Act. 20. Non sub erfugi annunciare vobis OMNE consilium Dei Euen as we doe against the Papists denying the Scriptures sufficiencie Adiovnd ex Hi●… contia Lucifer cap. 4. alijs To●ius orbis in hanc partem consens●● insta● praecepti obtin●ret But euery bodie may see that he speakes not this dogmatically but insultingly ouer his aduersaries after he had foyled them otherwise sufficiently by Scripture Adioynd Numb 60. As if a man should say that for a man to be recommended to the prayers of the Bishop of Ely is not to ●raue the help of his prayers in particular but to wish that the Kings MAIESTIN and all English Protestants may pray for 〈◊〉 * S. Hieron in Ep. Pauli item Chrysost Aug. in varijs locis S. Athan. in Epist ad Serapion Baronius Annal. Tom. 2. Anno 226. sect 12. brings another reason out of Maximus as if the very neighbourhood of the Saints bodies auailed the soules of them that lie buried by them against damnation so does superstition encrease in despight of S. Austen here after once it hath broken loose yet Maximus hauing ascribed somewhat to the Saints dares not rest there but brings vs home to our selues againe as time was saying Attamen consocij sanctitate Hymn Adioynd Numb 62. The prayer whereof S. Austen speaketh here cannot be said to be made generally to Christ and to all his mysticall bodie ●ccording to the Bishops glosse but particularly 〈◊〉 Sanctis tanquam 〈◊〉 to the s●… Saints as to their patrones and eidens Maytyri to the same Martyr by whose tombe the b●dies of the dead are buried S. Cyprian lib. 3. Epist 6. lib. 4. Ep. 5. Meminit oblationum pro marlyribus Sacrificia proijs inquit somper offerimu● Whereas one cannot offer praiers for a Martyr without doing him in●…ie faith S. Austen Those oblations therefore neither were prayers nor went with praiers S. Epiphan also●…resi ●…resi A●… thus hath reciting whom they pray for Proi●stis Patribus Patriarchis Prophetis Apostolit Euangelstis Martyribus Confessoribus Episcop●… Ana. horet●… ac pro ●…iuer so ord●… Massaeus in de vita Ignat. l. 2. c. 6. S. Ambrose saith of Valentinian that hee is in luce perpetua in tranquillitate diuturna in detectatione florenti● in light never sayling in rest a●xaies lasting and in flourishing delectation How much short of heauen then I would faine knowes * Confess l 9. c. 13. Aug. de cluit dei l. 22. c. 8. The Councell forbids praying to Angels The Papists maintaine cultū Angelorum Angels worship which is idolatry by Theodorets exposition of the Councell of Laodicek Not vnlike to Qu●… Mambre in Sozom. lib. 1. c. 3. at which Pars pieces deo omnium mederatori fundunt pars ●bi Angel●s invo●ant Quisque prout singulorum poscit relligio c. So that one and the same relligion calls not vpon God Angels yet F. T. would haue it so which is the worse Vbi supra 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Pet. 4. 3. Ierem. 2. 13. Rom. 5. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. 6. Christian inuocation hath this property ' that one person beeing praied to all are praied to Which is not so in prater to Saints For neither if one Saint be called vpon another is nor if the Saint be praied to therefore is God called on And this latter much lesse Because God and the Saints are farther off in nature then the Saints betweene themselues Which shews how repugnant praier to Saints is to the Christian inuocation Eph. 2. 18 We haue accesse to the father through Christ in one Spirit The whole Trinitie is named but no Saint needfull to