it as a Pillar c. Now Sir The Minor is evidently false the very naming of it is Confutation sufficient it being evident to behold that the Parishes of this Nation have always been and still are inclinable to whatsoever their Teachers and Rulers set up without ever questioning the truth of it except here and there a man which is nothing to our question it being of the Parishes generally Look upon them in the time of Popery and produce one Parish-Church much less all that opposed the power of the Pope but all inclinable to that wicked worship so in the time of Prelacy how conformable to that never once talking then of Presbytery and I believe as formerlâ— so now if the power of this Nation should enact that al should turn Independents they would obey without any general opposition and within this few years would as little think of Presbytery which you think to be truth now as they did then when he was Counted an Hereticke that believed not as the Church believed Which was then the scarlet-coloured whore of Rome and yet you let not to say they have been the Pillar of Truth defending it against all Errors which if true Presbytery is false in that the Parishes of this Nation have born Testimony to two contrary Religions Popery and Prelacy That Church that one time professeth Popery and another while Prelacy being variable according to the times in which she lives that Church is not the Pillar and ground of truth But the Parishes of this Nation have one while c. Ergo and for Revel 2. 13. When you have proved the Parishes of this Nation Pergamus I will Consider of it I know no advantage I should have gotten if the word Reply Dr. B. Church had been permitted to stand instead of Parishes but rather disadvantage because a National Church is as liable if not more to exception nor can I imagine how this could have hidden the folly of my Argument its folly to pick a quarrell the Church is nothing els but the Parishes or if you will that is the Mother these the daughters the Minor proposition which you deny will appear evident enough by considering the Apostles meaning of Pillar and Ground of Truth and applying it to our Assemblies both which I will do in few words The House or Church of God is so call'd in respect of the profession and maintenance of the true Religion of God which it both supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others as Magistrates use to hang and affix their Edicts and Proclamations on pillars or other places of strength and firmness and here consequently is declared the Office and duty of the Church in holding and publishing the Truth and defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions and whatsoever Societies do this it s written upon those Societies with a Sun beam that they are the true Churches of Christ Now it s notoriously known that the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. are published and consented to by all the See the answer of the Elders of the several Churches of New England to the ninth Question p. 26. and Church Covenant p. 40. Ministers endowed in every Congregation of this Nation with the silent consent also of the People and subscription of the hands of the chief of them wherein they do acknowledge no rule of Faith or Manners but the holy Scriptures no divine worship but to God only no Mediation nor Salvation but in Christ only no Conversion by Mans free will but by Gods free grace no Justification but by Faith no perfection nor merit of works with all other necessary and saving truths upon which the Church is grounded and built and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth This alone abundantly evinceth that the Parishes of this Nation are the Pillar and ground of Truth Besides these truths are daily in most Congregations faithfully opened and applyed and whatsoever is contrary thereunto on the right hand or left convincingly confuted our Parishes therefore keeping Gods Records faithfully are his Registers and consequently his true Churches Your declaiming against the inclinableness of our People to alter with their Governors might have been spared well knowing it was the practice of the Church of Israel to do so and the Churches of Galatia how soon were they removed from him that called them into the Grace of Christ unto another Gospell to the admiration of the Apostle Galat. 1. 6. And therefore it needs be no marvell if our people so easily change from one Church-Goverment to another which they may do without prejudice to fundamental verity which though the Galathians overthrew yet they remained true Churches If you read the Epistle of Christ to Pergamus understandingly and compare our Church with that you will find that we are not worse and wherein any in that Church were praise-worthy for doing or suffering you may find some in ours not short of them From our practice agreeing with the practice of the Primitive Arg. 7. Dr. B. Apostolical Churches Those Societies that continue stedfast in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and in Prayer are true Churches Acts 2. 42. but so do ours Ergo. I deny your Minor and the reason why we separate from you is upon Answ J. O. that ground you have added neither Scripture nor Reason to prove your Minor but have left it destitute of all proof you could hardly have brought a Scripture in all the Bible which in every thing both in doctrine and practice makes so directly against you as this that you have brought for you For first your doctrine is contrary secondly so is your practice for doctrine first after that Peter had preacht the Lord Christ to these men it working upon their hearts ver 37. they cryed out What shall we do the doctrine of the Apostle to them ver 38. is Repent and be Baptized and so they were ver 41. they were the same day added to the Church but you both Ministers and People go directly contrary first Baptize them at three or four dayes old and so make them members of your Church and perhaps twenty or forty years after preach Repentance just contrary to the Apostles doctrine and Gods examples 1 King 6. 7. Ephes 2. 21 22. 1 Pet. 2. 5. First you take into your house unhued stones and unsquared timber and twenty or forty years after fall to squaring them for the building Now for your practice in your fellowship the powerfull operation of the Gospell of Jesus Christ after it had workt them from the world and from themselves and one into another in the unity of the Spirit as one man it is said ver 44 45. and all that believed were together had all things common and sold their possessions c. And chap. 4. 32 34 35. and the multitude of believers were of one heart and one soul neither said any of them that ought that he possessed was
Psal 63. 1 2. You deny my Minor with the same limitation as you granted the Major God dwels not you say in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church I will to gratify and if it be possible to convince you make good that Christ dwels in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church by those three Reasons evidencing his presence amongst us For the fortifying whereof I was sparing in bringing Scripture-proof or farther reason not because I had not store of both but because I judged it needless to light a Candle to the Sun but seeing you tax me for bare Asserting you shall see me strongly Confirming each of the Reasons taking in your own restriction First I prove the Faithfull Constant Preaching of the Word to be a note of Christs presence with a people as a Church Deus 4. 7 8. So nigh unto them this speciall neerness of God is proved because they had the Law set before them i. e. fixed among them Psal 147. 19 20. By Word he means his will revealed in the Scriptures given to his Church as a most precious and peculiar treasure Zech. 8. 23. The reason why the Gentiles should joyn themselves to the Jews is because the Word was with them we have heard by your Preaching this was the great and glorious prerogative of the Jews which afterward they lost and as soon as they lost it ceased to be a Church Acts 13. 46. the Apostle witnesseth this to be the greatest privilege the Jews had Rom. 3. 1 2. If this be a peculiar privilege to the Church of God to have a standing fixed preaching of the Word among them and if no People in the world can be named that had this ordinance of preaching which were not Gods Church then this is a sure sign Secondly it appears that his working saving Grace by this Ordinance is as a sure sign 1 Cor. 14. 24 25. he will report that God is in you as a Church of a truth John 4. 22. Christ proves the Jewes to be a true Church Because Salvation might be had there out of the Church there is no salvation ordinarily If you can shew that Christ is present to Convert c. in any Societie where his word is faithfully and constantly Preached that is not his Church this Reason shall stand for invalid Thirdly the meeting mentioned Matth. 18. you deny not to be a Church-meeting therefore where a Societie meet to worship God by Prayer as you expound it or for the Administration of Church Censures as the place carries it there Christ is present as his Church Now that the Word is faithfully and constantly Preached in our Assemblyes and that Christ Converts c. by our Preaching and that our People meet together to pray in his Name is manifest to all the world that we have idle ignorant Ministers in many Congregations and a great multitude that want the power of Godliness among us c. is acknowledged but it s well known as bad of both sorts were in the Church of the Jewes and in the Apostolicall Churches which notwithstanding remained true Churches while he continued his presence and they met and joyned in his true worship till God gave them a bill of divorce and withdrew his presence and they cast off Gods true worship through obstinacie Those Assemblies that are built upon the Foundation of the Arg. 5. Prophets and Apostles are true Churches Ephes 2. 19 20. But ours are so built for they have the whole Doctrine of the Old Dr. B. and New Testament for the infallible and immoveable ground of their Faith whereby they subsist in Church-Communion I deny you Minor What you mean by these words they have Answ J. O. the whole Doctrine c. is doubtfull if by having of it you mean Christ hath left this Old and New Testament in the world for the immoveable ground of mens Faith that 's true but nothing to the purpose for if so it 's left to all men and many men may also beleeve it to be so and yet be so far from being built upon it as they walk and build directly from it If you mean that they have it in the practise of it so as they practically build upon it that 's false for such Persons are built upon it as the Apostle holds out in that Chapter such who were dead but now alive saved by Grace such who were made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Now the greater part of the men in your Parishes are such as were never spiritually alive lying in their sins still unquickned therefore they are not built upon that Foundation practically When I say our Assemblies are built upon Propheticall and Apostolicall Reply Doctrine I mean there is no other Doctrine taught or own'd with us but what hath warrant from the Old and New Testament Dr. B. if there be shew it now that hence it followes we are therefore Gods true Church is apparent from the Apostles Scope proving the Ephesians to be the Houshold of God because they were so built for that by building is meant Owning and Confessing the truth I prove from that of our Saviour Mat. 16. 18. nor can you shew any Society Confessing the whole truth of God that was not a true Church The want of Practise which you allege in the greatest part of our Members weakens not at all the force of the Argument for the very same is taxed by our Saviour in the Church of Sardis Rev. 3. 1. Thou hast a name to live and art dead the generalitie of the members of that Church were voyd oâ— Grace and ungodly men and yet Christ owns it for his Church in the beginning of that verse and how far the Church of Corinth and other Gospell Churches were from being built practically in your sense you have heard sufficiently and yet blessed be God we have in our Parochiall Churches a competent number of practicall Christians that walk exactly according to the rule of the Gospell for whose sakes if you had the Spirit of Christ you would I suppose acknowlege our whole Societies to be his visible Churches That Church that is the pillar and ground of truth is the true Arg. 6. Church 1 Tim. 3. 15. but so is the Church of England in respect of the profession and maintenance of true Religion which it both Dr. B. supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions whatsoever Revel 2. 13. You subtilly alter the termes of the question that the folly of your Argument may not appear instead of these words the Parishes of this Nation you say the Church of England which you ought not to have done the Argument from these words if it include the Question must proceed thus That Church which is the Pillar and ground of Truth is a true Church but so are the Parishes of this Nation in their maintaining and professing true Religion supporting
A PUBLICK DISPUTATION SUNDRY DAYES At Killingworth in Warwick-shire betwixt JOHN BRYAN Doctor in Divinity Minister at Coventry and JOHN ONLEY Pastor of a Church at Lawford Upon this Question Whether the Parishes of this Nation generally be true Churches Wherin are Nine Arguments alleged in proof of the Affirmative of the Question with the Answer of 1. 0. thereunto together with Doctor B. Reply Also an Addition of ten Arguments more in further proof of the Question with an Answer adjoyned in disproof thereof Try all things hold fast that which is good 1 Thes 5. 21. Published by both their consents as appears by the ensuing Epistles LONDON Printed for W. Larnar and are to be Sold at the Black-Mores-Head at Fleet-Bridge 1655. The Epistle to the Reader SInce the everlasting God of the inflnit riches of his grace hath been pleased to discover what Babylon is The Hearts Pens Tongues of many have been exercised in discovering what they conceived Sion to be Amongst which Doctor Bryan hath been one who hath indeavoured in several Lectures to prove that the Parochial Assemblies are true Churches her Ministry true Ministers and that none may publickly Preach but such as are Ministers in Office all which being contrary to truth in my apprehension I thought my self bound in conscience especially many giving out that it we had any thing to say for our selves why did we not speak both to vindicate what I apprehended to be truth that was there cry'd down as error as also to testifie against that which was false that was there Preached up as truth And in the close of the second days disputation it was desired by the Doctor that I would state some questions and appoint a Day onely to dispute and accordingly I did and stated two viz. 1. Whether the Parishes of this Nation generally be true Churches 2. Whether every Brother though no Elder that hath received abilities from God whereby he is in abled to Preach may publickly Preach which was consented to I being Respondent in the first and Opponent in the second which Day being come Nine Arguments were brought by the Doctor in vindication of the affirmative of the first question which when half our time was spent in debate of the two first I moved for the rest of the time to oppose in the second which was granted onely with a motion for the reading of the other seven to the Congregation to which I consented onely desiring a Copy of the Arguments undisputed of to return an answer to be likewise publickly read the next meeting Day which was granted according to which I drew up a Reply and read it to the Congregation that very same that is here Printed not once thinking that ever it should appear in Print immediatly after the reading of which a Gentleman then present desired it might be Printed and desired me to motion it to the Doctor which I did to which he replyed if he might reply he was willing but he had twelve Arguments more in proof of the question to which I replyed I was contented he should reply to my answer to the Nine first without my Rejoynder provided I might answer to the Twelve last without his Reply onely till they were Printed and then each should be at liberty to write what he pleased which was consented to which when I had finished my Answer to the Ten last and the Doctor his Reply to my answer to the Nine first we joyned them together to be Printed in one volumn so that this work is published by both our consents and this is the occasion of this Treatise thus unwontedly comming forth which I thought necessary to inform thee of Now that the Parishes of this Nation are false Churches and that they never had a Gospel Constitution that her Ministry is a false Ministry and that they are not that Mountain that shall be established on the top of all Mountains to which the desire of all Nations shall come I beg not thy consent to concur with my judgement therein but whether the Nineteen Arguments be sufficient to prove it or the Answers thereto to overthrow it I humbly refer to the judicious to Judge JOHN ONLEY Mr. IOHN ONELY THe end of our Monthly meeting at Killingworth begun in December last was well known to be the setting up and setling of a Gospel order in our Parochial Congregations and because I well knew that some in our County were not satisfied in Conscience concerning the truth of our Churches and Ministry my resolution was being put upon it by my reverend Brethren to endeavour in the first place a vindication of both I did therefore publickly desire all that had any thing to except against what I should deliver to send to me their exceptions in writing which with my answer to them should if they pleased be read before the people at the next meeting professing withall my readiness to receive back any Gold that should be found counterfeit or light by the touch-stone and ballance of Scripture Accordingly a Godly Brother of the Congregational way Lieutenant Fox by name sent in sundry objections to my third discourse upon that text in Col. 2. 5. joyning and beholding your Order and some Letters passed between us whereof he desired not any publication though for parts and piety he is judg'd no whit inferiour to you who the next Day openly declared your dissent and declared your self desirous to dispute with me publickly upon these two questions 1. Whether the Parish Assemblies of England generally be true visible Churches which you denyed 2. Whether every Brother though no Elder that hath received abilities from God whereby he is enabled to Preach may publickly Preach which you affirmed appointing me to be Opponent in the first and Respondent in the second the next Monthly Day I need not tell you how many disswasions I had from entring the Lists with an illiterate Adversary such you were taken for by many among others this that I should in so doing disparage my self nor was there any probability of good to come of it but those words of Job came into my mind Chap. 31. 13. 14. If I did despise the cause of my man servant or of my maid servant when they contended with me What then shall I do when God riseth up and when he visiteth what shall I answer him whence I gathered how displeasing it might be to God should I dispise a dissenting Brother protesting that the end of his contention was to receive satisfaction to his conscience which doubted of the doctrine I had dispensed besides I knew God oft reveals his mind to Babes in humane learning which he hides from the greatest Clerks Matth. 11. 25. 26. 1 Cor. 1. 20. moreover the ablest Preachers know but in part and prophecy in part 1 Cor 13. 9. and therefore may erre and Aquila and Priscilla may expound to Apollos the way of God more perfectly Acts 18. 26. a little Child may shew an erring Man his
way finally the Apostle Peter commands us all to be ready alwaies to give an answer to every Man that asketh us a reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear if Gods honour and the good of those who ask require it both which I apprehended were concerned in my yielding to your motion and therefore embraced it leâ—ving the issue to God and for the same reason have I yielded to your secod motion made in the close of the third or fourth days disputation viz. that your Arguments and Answers and Replies and Rejoynders upon the first question might be put in Print and to your Proviso that at present I should make no Reply unto your answer to the Ten last Arguments as you would no Rejoynder to my Reply upon your Answers to the Nine first and if you have a mind you may rejoin your engagement to the contrary I free you from yea and give you liberty which you have already taken all along without check to oppose what you please and to take in also the help of Master Morley and those other seven who assisted you in disputation that the utmost you and they can object further against our Parish Churches may come under our view onely for your Readers sake I could wish you would forbear instead of arguing to make any more excursions by tedious impertinent Declamations against our Ministers and Members wherein all your Answers for the most part spend themselves which yet the Men of your own way will admire seriously but all others of any competent understanding ironically using Jobs words to Bildad Chap. 26. 3. How hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is suffer me to speak my thoughts and hopes when all is that can be said by their self or any other to overthrow the Parochial Assemblies of this Nation they will stand like Mount Sion which though it may be moved in its place cannot be removed out of its place and the Presbyterian Government which we are endeavouring to settle in our Congregations will prove like the Palm tree quae non cedit ponderi sed surgit adversum pondus Nor do I doub but when Christ our King hath turned his hand upon us and purely purg'd away our dross and taken away all our tin he will set up his throne and keep a standing Majesty in the midst of these golden Candle-sticks then they that are our enemies shall see and shame shall cover them which said unto us where is the Lord your God mean time we will bear the indignation of the Lord because we have sinned against him untill he plead our cause and execute judgement for us yea though he suffer you to kill us after three days and a half we shall revive and stand upon our feet and many out of all languages separate Societies shall relinquish their dividing principles and practices and take hold of the skirt of a Gospel Presbyterian saying we will go with you for we have heard that God is with you this is the hope and shall be the Prayer of Your loving friend and servant in the Lord JOHN BRYAN That the National Congregations of England are the true Churches of Christ saith Dr. John Bryan Minister in Coventry and these are his Arguments to prove it as followeth Denyed by Mr. JOHN ONLY with the grounds of his dissent in Answers to his Arguments WHether the Parishes of this Nation generally be true Quest Churches Those Societies which the true Churches of Christ Argument 1. Dr. B. generally throughout the world own and acknowledge to be true Churches they are true Churches but the Parish Assemblies of England are so own'd and acknowledged therefore the Parish Assemblies of England are true Churches The Minor is undeniable for all the Reformed Churches of Europe gave us the right hand of Fellowship when we were much more corrupt then now and so have all the Churches of New-England done in their Treatise of Church Covenant and Answer to 32. Questions I put you to name one Church in the world that doth not acknowledge the Church of England to be the Spouse of Christ The Major is thus proved if the Judgement of the Churches See the joynt consent of sundry godly and learned Ministers published by W. Rathbad p. 7. of Christ ought to be taken for the Judgement of God then those Societies which they own and acknowledge to be true Churches are so but the former is true therefore the latter of the first Proposition there can be no doubt The second Proposition is evident from Mathew 18. 17. 18. He that will not regard the Judgement of that particular Church whereof he is a Member is to be esteemed as a Heathen or Publican Of how much sorer censure shal he be thought worthy that despiseth the Judgement of all the known Churches in the world Again Christ hath given his Church power to judge and pronounce of a particular man that he is in the Estate of salvation and that infallibly therefore he hath made it much more able to pronounce of a Congregation or people that is a true Church which is a matter of no such difficulty as the other 1 Tim. 3. 15. the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth but this it could not be if it should be ignorant of a Truth so necessary as this viz. what people are to be accounted a true Church That these societies by you mentioned may bear Testimony to yours to be true may be undeniable but then the Queâ—â—ion will Answ I. O. be whether these by you mentioned be true Churches rightly coÌ„â—ituted according to Gospel order that which is the very question betwixt us is by you taken for granted before it be proved and brought in by you as an Argument to prove it self the Question you are to prove is that the Parishes of that Nation be generally true Churches which I deny and so consequently all other that be of the same Matter and Form Now those Churches which you bring to prove yours to be true are of the same Matter and Form with you and if you be false then they also and if they should differ either in Matter of Form from you they could not possibly confesse you to be true Now to say you are true Churches because other societies who are one for matter of substance with you say so is as much as if you should say we are true Churches therfore we are true Churches That the Testimony of such a Church as is by you mentioned Mat. 18. 1 Tim. 3. is to be taken according to the intent of those Scriptures I grant but then you must first prove that those Churches by you mentioned are such not so confidently beg the question till that be first done these Scriptures will not support your Conclusion Wheras you desire me to name one true Church in the world that does not acknowledge the Churches of England to be the Spouse of Christ that I shall doe in
its proper place where I shall have occasion to vindicate the truth of those Churches which you deny to be true The summe of your Answer is st fir by way of Concession that all the Churches mentioned by me which are all the known Churches Reply Dr. B. in the world own and acknowledge our Parochial Assemblies to be true Churches this savours of Ingenuity 2. By way of Exception against the validity of the Testimony of these Churches because they are the same for Matter and Formwith ours according to the Proverb ask my Brother if I be a Thief this seems to savour of Arrogancy The Testimony of two or three men was wont to be taken for truth by Warrant both of Law and Gospel John 8. 17. Mat. 18. 16. 2 Cor. 13. 1. Heb. 10. 28. Now put the Case you were accused of these or two known Enemies by one were able to bring the Testimony of two hundred honest men to assert your Integrity I presume you would not take it well that their witness should be slighted upon no other ground but this because they consisted of the same Matter and Form with you It is just our Case a very inconsiderable number for so are all the Anti-paedo-Baptistical societies Comparatively and our profest Adversaries draw up a Charge against us that we are false Churches we being for Justification of our truth more then a million of men approved unto God and all good men in whose Approbation we do yea and will rejoyce because we beleeve and are sure that they are the true Churches of Christ and the Judgement of such you deny not to be the judgement of God himself but all Churches besides those of your way which are but of yesterday you plainly though implicitly in the Close of your Answer deny to be true Churches whereby you proclaime M. Mar shal unity of Saints your selves to be the greatest Schismaticks in the world if the Scripture reason that a burning and shining Light in our Church hath given be of any weight which I refer to your serious Consideration as also the weight of this inartificial Argument to the judgement of the people Our Parish Assemblies have a true Church Constitution therfore Argu. 2. they are true Churches The Consequence is granted by you all for this is the Main if not only Reason why you deny the Truth of our Churches because they want a right Constitution The Antecedent I thus prove Those societies that have the true Matter and Form of Gospel Churches have a right Constitution Matter and Form being the only constitutive Principles and making up the Essence of every Body both natural and Political But our Parish Assemblies have the true Matter and Form of Gospel Churches therefore they have a true Church Constitution The Minor I make good from your own definition of a visible Church viz. A company of visible Saints combined or conjoyn'd in special bond consent or Covenant to partake of all Gods Ordinances and to perform all duties which they owe to God and each to other I argue thus those Societies that consist of visible Saints so combin'd are true Churches ours are such therefore The Major is your own the Minor is thus proved in both branches our Parish Assemblies are Societies of visible Saints Those societies where some are Real Saints the worser sort Brethren in a Gospel Account and the worst Professors of the true Faith they are Societies of visible Saints But such are our Assemblies therefore The Minor you cannot deny there are with us many that are men of understanding and not only blameless but pious also in their Conversations The Apostle commands us to account men ignorant and wicked if they be not wilfully and obstinately so Bretheren 2 Thes 3. 14 15. and you grant that the worst among us profess in word the true Faith viz. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God that we are justified by faith alone c. The Major is thus proved The Apostolical Church Societies were Societies of visible Saints but they had in them some reall Saints the worser sort Brethren the worst visible Professors therefore Societies that consist of such are true visible Churches That Christ owns for his Church such a Society where all profess the Faith though the greater part be wicked if there be a few names that are Reall Saints is evident by the example of the Church of Sardis Revel 3. 1. 4. the like may be said of the Church of Corinth c. We have therefore true Church Matter 2. They have a right Form for they are conjoin'd in a Church Covenant this is manifest by their constant meeting every Lords Day to worship God together which is an implicit Covenant our Adversaries being Judges That which was to be proved was that the Parishes of this Nation Answ J. O. in their first Constitution consisted of visible Saints and all that you have here said is void the mark for notwithstanding any thing that you have said the greatest part of the men in the Parishes of this Nation in their first constitution might consist of visible wicked men and so all that you have said is to no purpose for if ever you say any thing to purpose you must first prove that which you have undertaken viz. That you consisted at the first constitution of visible Saints and of this you have not spoken one word you rake back into the degenerated Estate and Condition of Churches striving to equalize and shroud your selves under the sins of others which are degenerated from what they were at first which is nothing to the purpose for I utterly deny that ever any of those Churches in their first forming did consist of such disobedient Persons as the Apostle speaks of 2 Thes 3. 14. For such with whom the Godly in that Church were forbidden to keep company with were sure unfit to be joyned with them as one Body if they appeared such at first and the like may be said of the Church of Sardis Corinth c. Now because these Churches were called Saints and that they had such among them as bad as any in yours you would infer that you may be called so too I grant that these were called Saints but it was not as they were disobedient Persons these never received the name of Saints as they were disobedient but as they being once visibly holy and Saint-like and not so farre degenerated but in a capacity of Recovering their former Estate they bore among others the name of such Now except you first prove that you in your first constitution were Saints visible which in the least measure you have not done there can be no Argument drawn from the Name of them to you I desire if you can to produce one Scripture where in the constitution of an Apostolical Church there was any such distinction made of best and worst and worst of all as you make though there might be a difference in the measures
positively affirm they did consist for the most part of visible wicked men abhominable disobedient and to every good work reprobate for which you give no proof but your own conjecture yet thereupon pass sentence upon all my discourse that it is not at all to the purpose but I presume every unprejudiced man will judge you have clearly lost your cause if it can be made good that the member of our Parishes are such as the Apostolical Churches were even in their state of degeneration which you so much harp upon you deny not but they were true Churchrs and their Members called Saints notwithstanding therefore if our Members appear to be as good Saints as they were their matter then is undoubtedly right let them come into comparison there were amongst them very many in some of these Churches by far the greater number Schismatical Heretical Carnal Proud Lovers of Preheminence Supercilious Censurers Contentious Abusers of Christian Liberty Prophaners of the Lords Supper Gluttons Drunkards Pelly-Gods disorderly Walkers Idle Busie-bodies such as had not repented of the Vncleanness and Fornication and Lasciviousness which they had committed Enemies to the Cross of Christ Minders of earthly things Contemners of the holy Apostle their spiritual Father having a Form of Godliness but denying the power of it profâ—ssing to know God but in their works denying him Abominable Luke warm c. you cannot I suppose find worse then these in our Assemblies What they were at their first forming it makes no matter to me at present yet some being really Saints such as you describe the whole Churches are acknowledged Societies of Saints the denomination being taken not from the greater but better part so a Field where good Corn hath been sowne and some grows is called a Corn field a Wheat heap though most Chaff Gold Oare though more Dross than Gold You say there may be some in Gods favor in our Congregations but if an Holy Humble Wise Exact Gracious conversation argue men to be in the favor of God an impartial Eye may easily discern more such in a few of our Assemblies than in most of the Seperate Societies Yea if you be ingenious you will acknowleage that the Holiness which mâ—st of all your Members have saving in two or three new Opinions they learnt it in and had it from our Parechial Congregations a little Practical holiness serves the turn of too many when they have forsaken us and joyned with you you spend but might as well have spared a multitude of words in declaiming against our peoples profession of the true Faith without works the stress of the Argument is not laid upon verbal profession though let me tell you if it were it might sink your Cause for as true Faith gives being to the invisible Church so does prefession of the true Faith and not Moral Obedience give being to the visible Do you no read of many who upon their verbal Prosession were Baptized by the Apostles themselves and incorporated into the Church Did not Obedience of Faith make the Gentiles Churches Rom. 1. 5. 8. And if Obedience to the Commandements be so necessary to the life and first being of a true Gospel Church that question would be resolved What difference there is between the Covenant of Grace and of Works That which I affirm stands firm upon a sure foundation that where a whole Society professeth all fundamental Truths though the greater part be naught yet if soms of them be Saints indeed Christ owns it for his Church for their sake the Church of Sardis had a name to live i. e. consisted of verbal Professors but it was dead The generality were void of Grace and wicked Members yet for the sakes of a few names that had not defiled their Garments Christ owns it for his Church You say God had some such thing in Babilon If you will say Babilon profosseth the true Faith I will say and prove it a true Church for the sakes of Gods People in it the reason of whose Evocation may easily appear to be their devilish Doctrins pertinaciously held for which their damnation was at the door But you frequently urge the wicked ones in Sardis and other Gospel-Churches were visible Saints at first and yet you bring no proof at all besides your own presumption that they brought more than a verbal profession to make them so or if you could evince they did no prejudice would come thereby to my Argument which proceeds not upon that which you call first constitution that our 8432. Parishes as you number them were at their first constitution for the most part abominable c. is also void of proof I might moreover add that our members may bee called visible Saints because they bear the badge of holy Baptisme and so are sacramentally holy every one of them as Jeâ—usalem when it was worser than Sodom was called the holy Ciâ—â—â— buâ— I forbear to press this because you hold our baptisme a nullâ—â—ie I may happily ere long prove yours to bee so besides the sanctâ—â—y of that doctrine which wee profess may give us the name of Sâ—ints comparatively or in respect of Heathens in opposition to whom the Apostle calls thoâ—e to whom he writes Saints I perceive the name of Paâ—ish is extream distasteful to you and all of your way which yet is nothing else in signification but the confining of Churches within convenient local limits were is not that I finde sundry learned godly men whose treatises are or may be in your hands abundantly vindicating both the name and thing among others Mr. Hollingworth in his rejoynder to Mr. Eaton and Mr. Taylers Reply chap 2. shewing how Parishes are jure divino and how not and Mr. Cawdin in his Review of Mr. Hookers survey who gives six satisâ—actory Answers to that first Negative Conclusion viz. That Parish precincts do not give a man Right or make him more fit for a visible Congregation Chap. 2. p. 87. c. I should spend some pains and time to stop your mouth from quarrelling with the term and make it appear that there is no reason why the number of these bounds by whomsoever measured should offend any to their writings I refer you and follow you from the matter to the form of a visible Church viz. Combination or Conjunction in Covenant which is in our Assemblies and is manifested by their constant meeting every Lords day c. You say you denied a Covenant to be the form of a Church which I remember not I am sure some of the seven that took your part in the dispuâ—ation who were Anti-pedo baptists and were lookt upon by many hearers as Herods taking part with Pilate against Christ did expresly own it and the Argument proceeded with your Approbation and you now shew your gratefulness to them by a tender touch of their name and justifie their mutual Covenanting and consederating in the fellowship of the Faith as that which gives being and constitution to a
to confirm this are at large related 2. Though Popish Apostacy did afterward for many Ages overspread all the Churches in England yet they believe God still reserved a remnant for whose sakes he preserved the holy Scriptures amongst them and baptism in the name of the Trinity only and when God of his rich grace was pleased to stir up the Spirit of King Edward the sixth and Queene Elizabeth to cast off the Pope c. though at first some Sbires and sundry Parishes stood out against that Reformation for a time yet afterwards they generally received the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. which are published and consented to by all the Ministers endowed with the silent consent also of the People and Subscription of the hands of the chief of them containing the Marrow and Summe of the Oracles of God which are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Eloquia Dei concredited only to the Church We doe therefore acknowledge that where the People doe with common and mutuall consent gather into setled Congregations every Lords day as in England they do to hear and teach this Doctrin and doe profess their subjection thereunto and doe bind themselves and their Children as in Baptism they doe to continue therein that such Congregations are true Churches much more you may read in their Treatise of Church Covenant in their Answer to the eleventh Objection where they shew that if Christian Congregations in England were at the first combined by Covenant the Eternity of Gods Covenant is such that it is not the Interposition of many Corruptions that may arise in after-time that can disanull the same c. That Objection also that the Members of our Parishionall Assemblies were not brought in by their own voluntary profession but by the Authority and Proclamation of the Prince as also that Rome and the Assemblies of Papists may go for true Churches also you shall find there very fully answered The Name of Parish I perceive all along is stumbled at as Popish as are the names of Parsons Vicars and Curats which is the main if not the only Reason why some of you cast off both the English Churches and Ministers and yet the thing signified by the name is owned by Scripture and upon that account Mr. Hollingworth proves Parishes to be of Divine Right to whom I formerly referr'd you and reason it self evinceth it most expedient for the better performance of those duties which arise from Church-Membership that the Members should cohabit or dwell as neer together as conveniently they may It 's falsely charged upon as that we hold Parish Precincts give a man right or make him matter fit for a visible Congregation but the Question is of a Nation or City Christian whether the bounds of Parishes discreetly measured may not rationally be fixed as most expedient for Religious Meetings seeing all cannot meet in one place and if the Members of a Parish be visible Saints you will not say it is not lawfull to limit the Congregation unto such read the Review formerly cited and that our Congregations generally consist of such though not in your yet in a Scripture sense hath been in part and shall be more fully proved In your Answer to the first Branch I see nothing worth replying to 1. The World out of which this Nation when made Christian was called every mans Eyes but yours easily see 2. Many Members of the best Churches retain the lusts of the World in their hearts and 3 May be deadly Enemies one to another bite and devour one another yea and be Enemies to their faithfull Ministers for telling them the truth and yet the effects of Gospel gathering seen well enough To the second branch 1. You say we retain the Constitution which we had from Popery which is very false for we rejected Popery embraced Gods holy truths and joyned together in true worship and so were Matter and Form distant far enough from Popish Rulers you mean we retain the same Parish bounds which Papists left us to which sufficient hath been spoken 2. You deny the Command of the Magistrate assisting the publick Preaching of the Gospel to be a means appointed and approved of God for the gathering or recalling of a back-slided People That the Magistrates duty is to command yea and compell men that have forsaken their God and the true Faith to return again to God I proved by the approved examples of the good Kings undor the old Testament which you throw off very lightly as if old-Testament-Proofs were of no force whereas the Apostle expresly teacheth that the Gospel Churches are built upon the Prophets as well as the Apostles Ephes 2. 20. And that I may farther convince you of your Errour and Folly in slighting these Examples 1. You cannot but grant that what these good Kings did was by vertue of divine warrant Deut. 13. 5-11 17. 2. Exod. 22. 20. 2. It will thus appear that these Rules and Patterns are binding under the New Testament 1. Because we find no Repeal of these Precepts no Prohibition of these Practises 2. This Power is of Common and Naturall Equity and that which is answerable to the Morall Law binds under the Gospel 3 This Power was established and exercised upon Morall grounds and for Moral ends Deut 13. 5. 11. 4. We find this very thing prophesied of the times of the New Testament Es 49. 23. Zech. 13. 3. 5. The Apostle makes Rulers a terrour to evill works and Revengers to execute wrath upon Evil Doers without limitation or exception and you will not deny transgressions of the first Table to be evill works Moreover you cannot but remember that it is a Gospel-expression Compel them to come in Your first Argument from the Apostles gathering Churches without the Magistrates help there being no Christian Magistrate proves the Power of God who can make his Word alone Effectual but it proves not that had there been Christian Magistrates they ought not to have aided by their authority or that the Apostles would not have called for their assistance The consequence of your second Argument is absurd If I have Bread and Water to preserve my life must I not make use of these because I want those other means which God hath appointed and which when he sees good he will add to these to make my life more comfortable Your conclusion of this Answer is a triumph before the victory My following Argument which you say will melt like Snow before the Sun may make a floud which will sweep away your refuge of lyes James 3. 14 15. Those Assemblies wherein Christ dwells by the special presence Arg. 4. Dr. B. of his Grace are true visible Churches but Christ dwells in the Parochial Assemblies of England by the special presence of his Grace Ergo the Parochial Assemblies of England are true visible Churches The Major proved Rev. 1. 12 13 Psal 132 13 14. Exod. 25. 31. 1 Tim. 3. 15. 2 Cor. 6. 16. The
his own c. But your fellowship is directly contrary one sortfed with all delicious fare cloathed with gorgeous Apparell and pride abominable and the other sort one company working and toyling more than they be well able and glad if they may be set on work and all to get a few cloathes and food and yet cannot get enough to satisfie they being tormented by the oppression of the rich that as the Lord saith their faces are ground and their burdens are almost insupportable the other sort begging from door to door which is miserable to see in that Nation where many vainely spend so much in one hour as would relieve many a poor creature ready to perish with cold and famisht with hunger all which is evident by lamentable experience and yet you have the boldness to compare your Parishes with those in Acts 2. betwixt which there is as much difference as betwixt light and darkness Those that continue not in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship c. are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation continue â—ot c. Ergo they are not true Churches the Major is your own by the rule of contraries the Minor is Evident by that which hath been said You render us a reason of your separation from us which whether it will hold when God shall ask you Who hath required this Reply Dr. B. at your hands you have just reason to question groundless separation and Church-division being as great a sin as Adultery or Theft Our Blessed Saviour and his Disciples separated not from Assemblies whose teachers and members were worse than ours read Matth. 23. nor can you find any command or example in all the Scripture for separating from Societies that hold all fundamental Truths and join together in Gods true worship as ours do The doctrine and practice of the Apostles in Baptizing Jews or Heathens brought within the Pale of the Church professing their Faith and Repentance and desiring to be sealed with this Sacrament for the strengthening of their Souls in this Faith as these here did is the doctrine of our Churches our doctrine and practice of Baptizing Infants of Believers is so far from being directly Contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles there being neither here nor any where els any word of theirs forbidding to baptize Infants as that there is very cleer warrant in this very place to Baptize such Infants For the Apostle makes it his Argument to them to be willing to receive Baptism because the promise is made to them and their Children and to as many as the Lord our God shall call and to their Children this must needs be understood or els the promise to Believing Gentiles is not of the same Latitude as it is to Believing Jews I presume you will acknowledge that the Covenant of Grace is as fair and full to these Now if the Promise be made to Believers and their Children the Command must reach not only to them but to their Children also running thus be Baptized you and your Children for the promise is made to you and your Children if otherwise this that wâ—s intended to be an effectual motive would have been an effectual disswasive and deterred Parents from accepting Baptism and renouncing Circumcision to which initial sign their Infant-Children till now had right having privilege of Church Membership as well as Parents which by this acceptance they must lose and be cast into a condition like that of Infidels Which losse to the Church by Christs coming seemes to be no less than of denial of his coming in the flesh Moreover the Apostles practice in Baptizing whole families a part whereof and the greatest part for the most part Children are immediatly upon the parents believing is a warrantable pattern for the practice of our Churches Your objection that there is no express mention of Infants Baptized in those families notwithstanding your selves will take liberty to believe that many were Baptized of whose Baptism there is no mention made in Scripture the twelve Apostles for instance nor is it said there were wives or servants in those families You do not well to call all Infants unhued and unsquared Timber have you never read what the Scripture saith of Infant-Children born within the bosome of the Church Esay 65. 20. The Child shall by an hundred years old that is he shall be as well instructed by Gods inward teaching according to that promise Esae 53. 14. As if he had lived under the Churches teaching an hundred years And if some Children be timber hued and squared for the Kingdom of Glory Mark 10 14 why should it be thought a thing incredible with you that they be squareable for the Kingdom of Grace Moreover that place in 1 Cor. 10. 1 2. If duely considered more than probably proves that it was an Apostolical practice to Baptize Infants born within the Church if not it will be difficult to make the Apostles Comparison of the two Churches and their Sacraments and subjects thereof to run parallell Your pleading for Anabaptistical Community I think not worth replying to as neither your declaming against the hardheartedness of some of our rich members you will find as bad or worse among the members of the Churches Apostolical read 1 Cor. 11. 21 22. and Jam. 2. and 5. We are not therefore overbold to compare our doctrine and fellowship with the Primitive degrees of Purity in doctrine and practice we easily yield them above us But the same Truth we hold fast and will not let it go we teach no other doctrine have fellowship in no other worship Ergo we are true Churches Those Christian Societies that have the true Ministry of Christ Arg. 8. Dr. B. set over them for their Pastors and Spiritual Rulers are true Churches Ephes 4. 11 12. But so have the Parishes of England Ergo. That the Ministers of England are true Ministers appeares by their ordination which was by laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Secondly by their abilities both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Tim. 2. 15. Galat. 2. 14. Thirdly by Gods blessing on their endeavours and labours 2 Cor. 3. 1. I deny the Minor in the proof whereof you forget your self you should Answ I. O. say thus that the Parishes of this Nation have a true Ministry of Christ set over them and then the question is Who set them you say it appeares first by their Ordination c. I answer your Ordination is false and that upon a double account and seeing you either will not or cannot prove it true but onely barely affirm without proof I will give you the grounds of my deniall First the Presbytery by which you were ordained which is the Bishops now it is undeniable they had their Ordination from the Pope and I am sure he had his from the Devill Now the Devill ordaining the Pope the Pope the Bishops the Bishops you how can you be true Ministers by
vertur of that Call and yet no man can communicate that to any other that he hath not himself and the Devill never being Authorized by Christ to ordain Ministers and yet you having no other must needs we think be false Secondly for manner of entrance that Church that is in want of a Minister is to elect such a man as she shall judge sit which man thus chosen is to be solemnly ordained by the approbation of the body for whom he is to officiate And you were made Ministers such as you are not only by them whom Christ never authorized to ordain but also before ever you knew what flock to Minister to which is a ridiculous foolery seeing Pastor and Flock are relates the one gives being and the essential Constituting Causes to the other and then get to the patron or to those in whose power it was to establish you and make the place sure and then intruding your selves into the service of those demanding nay forcing wages from those that never set you at work whereby we judge you false Ministers The other is this A society of believers as yet no Church in order assembled together in the Name of Christ to reassume an Ordinance of Christ appoint one man for the performance of the work not as a Pastor but as a man enabled by God to be instrumental in the discovery of this Truth Now whether there be the like reason upon the same principles to judge of the one as the other I leave it to be considered And which of these two is the rightlyest authorized let all men judge And how the holding that an unbaptized person in case of necessity one rightly Baptized not to be found might Baptize will prove us Schismaticks in separating from a true Ministery is to me a riddle the unfolding of which belongs to the Learning of him that doth assert it Hence your first scruple may be removed viz. how the first Baptizer had his Call being one who never did Baptize himself nor yet rested contented with his Infant-Baptism neither yet sent of God to begin a new Institution as John the Baptist was but one enlightned to discover that old yet new appearing institution unto us For if what you say was truth as it is not there having been some in all ages bearing testimony to this Truth viz. That this way was not till 1500. years after there was no need of beginning a new Institution for that Matth. 28. 18 19. is to last to the end of the world whether men obey it once in a thousand yeares or not now whereas you demand by what authority this first man Baptized seeing to Baptize is an act of office c. And no man can be a lawfull Administrator unless Elected c. I Answer by what Authority I have already shewed and for Baptizing to be an act of office and so not not to be performed but by officers I deny And the Scripture you bring to prove it Matth. 28. 18 19. proves the plain contrary as is evident for such as had received Abilities from Christ whereby they were enabled to Convert a soul to Christ might Baptize such a person so Converted The Commission holds alike for both Disciple and Baptizer c. Now this Commission though it was given to the Apostles it was not given to them as Apostles but as Disciples and in them to all others so gifted to the end of the world as your self well know and undeniable it is that they were to Preach and Baptize by vertue of Gift and not by vertue of Office seeing these men were such as were never elected by any Churches to the Pastoral charge for that was not Congruent to their Comission the Election of the people tying to the Church by whom they were elected and the Comission sending them forth to all the word to prepare matter for the Church whence it is evident that such who can disciple men to Christ may Baptize such so discipled disciple and baptize c. but some that are not Ministers in office can do that Ergo. The proposition is evident from the words the Assumption I suppose no man will deny except it be some who do endeavor to Monopolize Preaching only to themselves and stop the mouthes of all others though never so eminently gifted except they have served a prentiship to the same trade that they have done or els come under their Bishopping by laying on of their hands that so they may ty them to preach after their fashion which opinion is so grosse that I am loth to spend time in confutation Yet seeing though you dare not deny but that all who have received gifts whereby they are enabled to preach may yet deny that they may publickly preach and this preaching Matth. 28. is a publick preaching I shall give you an Argument or two to prove that If there be tolleration given by God to all who have received the gift of Prophecie to Prophesie in the Church Then there is tolleration given by God to all who have received the gift of Prophecy to Prophesy publickly but the former is true 1 Cor. 14 31. Therefore the latter This whole argument you have granted to be true only you say that Prophecy was extraordinary but that it was not I thus evince That Prophety is there meant that came within trial and Judgment but extraordinary Prophecy did not so therefore that 's not meant To this you Reply that extraordinary Prophets doctrine did Acts 17. 11. to which I answer That Judgment spoken of in the 14. of Cor. was such a judgment as presupposed the Prophets might err but this searching of the Bereans to see if the things Paul spake were so was no such thing Therefore nothing to the purpose it only shewed that Paul preaching and alleging Scriptures as his manner was thus and thus it is written and yet citing neither Chapter nor verâ—e That they did seek to see if it was as he said and did in no wayes presuppose that Paul was liable to err in what he preacht Secondly That Prophecie in that place that men that are gifted are tolerated That Prophecie in that place women though gifted are forbidden but extraordinary Prophecy women are not forbidden Ergo. The Minor viz. that women extraordinary gifted may deliver their Prophecy in any place I think no man will deny And for the Major viz That the same manner of Prophecy that the gifted disciples were tolerated in verse 31. is the same that women are forbidden verse 34. is evident to all that will Consult the scope of that place Secondly we have an example in Scripture of such men preaching See also Acts 18. 28. If it be objected Apollos was an officer 1 Cor. 1. 12. Answer first It is not probable it was the same man Secondly If it was the consequence is bad to say Apollos was an officer when Paul wrote this Epistle therefore he was one when he preacht in the 18 of Acts knowing
trespass against thee go and tell him of his fault betwixe him and thee alone and if he will not hear thee take with thee one or two more and if he will not hear them tell it to the Church and if he neglect to hear the Church let him be to thee at a Heathen and Publican and thus the Apostle was carefull to keep the Church visible purer Purge out from you the old Leaven saith Paul know you not that a little Leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump see and consider Haggai 1. 11 12 13 now you being such as are and ever were for the most part visibly nought cannot Answer those Parables if understood of the Church true it is that many Churches in the Apostles times had amongst them visibly bad they being degenerated from what he was but they were to remain but for a considerable time of tryal to see if they would be restored and if they would not be reclamed but prove contumacious they are to be delivered to that Kingdom from whence they For those which you so harp upon that was bad in the Apostolicall Churches and as bad as you say as yours these were not fit matter for a Church as such for such they were commanded to excommunicate 1 Cor. 5. 5 6 7. and forbad to have Communion with ver 11 12 13. sure was unfit matter for the Church came and for the objection that you say is so easily answered the Church being called Saints the denomination being taken from the better part I answer if you mean this if a Church at its first constitution it s abundantly false and you have spoken it without the least colour of Scripture or reason I challenge you or any Man in the World to produce one example in all the New Testament of any one Church that at its Constitution received one visible wicked Man and if not but all appeared Saints then undeniable it is that the denomination arose from the visibility of sanctity that appeared in all and so it was as the Scripture plainly declares to all that are willing to see If you mean it of a Church when degenerated from what they were it s nothing to your purpose because you for the most part were never visibly Regenerated it appears that the Churches after corrupted retained the name of Saints from that visible sanctity once they had and yet not past recovery to their former Estate for after they appeared past recovery see what they may be called Mat. 18. 17. all you say should be answer true therefore those that are not are as they should not be Some you say are true but that doth not shew that those that never were are to be accounted so nor that those that never were are to be accounted Church Members though amongst the other for then Babylon is a Church and a society of Saints for some Saints may be and have been there Rev. 18. 4. Those societies from which it is a Sin to separate are true Churches Arg. 16. D. B. but it is a Sin to separate from our Assemblies Ergo. That Church for separation from which there is as little reason as there was for separating from the Church whereof Christ professeth himself a Member John 4. 22. and so from the Church of Corinth it is a sin to separate from but there is little reason to separate from our Assemblies compare our Churches with the Church of the Jews in Christs time for Teachers and Rulers and you shall find as bad of both as with us if you say these Churches had a right Constitution and gathering I have proved ours have both The Minor of the first and also of the second Syllogism is denyed Answer 1. 0. and were our separation from you onely for the evilness of you it might easily be made appear that there is more reason to separate from you then either the Church of the Jews or Corinthians You have been so far from proving that Constitution true that after you had indeavoured it and see my answer to it you then deny that you were to prove any such thing see page the 2d Argument 2. and then page 6. at the Reply but the truth is you yet never were a Church at all you never having had any Gospel Constitution and where you say you have proved it there I have disproved it and proved it false where unto I refer the Reader being unwilling needlesly to multiply words Those Churches that have brought forth a multitude of Martyrs Argument 17. Dr. B. for the Causes of Christ against Anti-Christ are no Anti-Christian but true Churches that ours have so is superfluous for me to prove Sir I desire you in your next to prove that the bringing over Answer 1. 0. of men to yield up their lives in the defence of some truths for these did no more is sufficient to prove the societies that so taught them true Churches go throughout all the diversities of Religions almost in the world and you shall find some so taught as were they called to it would yield up their lives and Seal some truths of Christ with their blood Rome it self I am confident would yield many Martyrs for the Cause of Christ in many real truths and though they could not be concluded Anti-Christian in that yet they might in many other things that they might hold that might be erronious Here are many societies in England that deny the Baptism of water to be practised upon any subject without which no society in the world can be accounted a visible Church and yet I am confident had they occasion rather than they would deny they would seal many precious truths of Christ with their blood and now upon your Argument they in so doing might be proved true Churches if what you say be true though they deny that without which no men can be esteemed so Secondly I desire to see it proved for yet you have not that the Parishes of this Nation did bring forth these Martyrs I rather think that the Parishes of this Nation were as willing to have them Martyred as those bloody men themselves that did it for that Parish that brought forth some that were Members of her to profess and dye for some truths must needs profess the same things themselves and so they should all have been Martyred for such was the blood-thirstiness of those men that all that would not submit to their abominations must dye But we see no such thing for only some few in some Parishes and in any one were Martyred and the rest not toucht which shews that the Parishes except some few were of the mind of those bloody men and so the edge of the Argument may be turned into your own Neck thus Those Churches that have consented to the Martyrdom of a multitude of those that dyed in the defence of the Cause of Christ are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation have so consented Ergo. Thirdly were all
this true viz. that they that have brought forth such are true Churches and that some Parishes have done so as it is not yet this Argument includes not the Question for I think it will never be proved that half the Parishes of England have brought forth any and so all those Parishes that have brought forth none are notwithstanding this Argument not proved true were it true as it is not Those Churches that Anti-Christ hates with a perfect hatred and seeks the destruction of and which hate Anti-Christ with Arg. 18. D. B. as perfect a hatred and pray for the destruction of are true Churches but such are ours This Argument is onely affirmed without proof you onely say it Answer I. O. is so and I with as much reason may say it is not so to what purpose would five hundred Argments so left be truly Sir if your end in writing be for satisfaction I would intreat you to bring some Scripture or reason for what you say or else say nothing for your words will now be taken no more for Oracles you 'l be beleeved no further than clear evidence carries a perswasive power I know not what you mean by perfect hatred it cannot be denyed but Anti-Christ hates all so far as they hold and practice any thing that 's good Let it be Pope or who it will and they also so far hate him But this proves not such true Churches but if by perfect hatred you mean the highest perfection of hellish malice which Anti-Christ casts forth against a society indeavouring their destruction in chief I acknowledge the Major true for those that have so far and so perfectly hated Anti-Christ as to get clean out of his kingdom imbodyed together in Gospel order and indeavour to discover and break in pieces his kingdom They are the principle perfect subject of his hatred betwixt whom there is the deadliest enmity he inseeking their destruction in chief and they of him but now I deny your Minor viz. that Anti-Christ hates you with this hatred for daily experience shews that there be some societies that he is at more deadly enmity then with you seeking all hellish contrivances to cast dirt in the faces of them that are departed his kingdom now if you be not chief subject of his hatred as you have neither proved nor once set about it then you perfectly hate not him for such who perfectly hate him are the chief subjects of his hatred And for your praying for his destruction that you may do all your life and practise such thing as are the foundation of his upholding men may highly be Anti-Christian under a seeming pretence of seeking his destruction Those societies that consist of faithful Rulers in the Lord and Arg. 19. D. B. faithful Members united the one ruled well the other ruled willingly they are true Churches but such are many of our Parochial Assemblies The Minor is short the mark and includes not the question Answer I. O. in dispute which is of the Parishes generally if you say be generally is not meant every one but the greatest part yet still it will be too short for if such should be faithful Rulers and ruled as you judge so yet you can never prove that above half the Nation is such For though I utterly deny that there is ever a Parish in England that consists of such faithful Rulers i. e. faithfully ruling according to the will of the Lord revealed in his word neither yet are the other faithful Members united i. e. in compleat order according to the Gospel rule yet seeing the question is stated and this Argument brought to prove it and yet includes it not no answer need be given it not only includes not the question in debate neither yet gives proof for what it doth conclude of Sir wherefore is it that you decline the question in the close of all and leave out some Parishes as no true Churches not onely here but also in dispute when you argued from the truth and ability c. of the Ministry to the truth of the Churches Argument 5. I answering you with your own words that you preacht thereby undeniably proving that all was not such and so not all true therefore not including the question you said to this purpose that if above half was it did whence I declared that you granted some to be false to which you denyed not Now this is a plain grant that you are all false For you stand all upon one foundation you have all one and the same matter and form and all the Reformation that some above others are more zealous of is such as had they their desires gives no new essential constitutive principles viz. matter and form but is onely a building upon the same matter and form that you had once together with those you now leave out and which they also retain still as well as you Therefore if there be some Parishes that be false Churches there is never a one that 's true The consequence is evident in that matter and form which is onely a differeneing note of distinction is one and the same with you all But there are some that be false This you have not denyed or if you had it might easily have been proved from the Minor of the last Argument there being some upon your own principles that have neither faithful Rulers in the Lord neither yet faithful Members united and so not possible to be true Therefore there is never a one that 's true FINIS