disciples and vnder their charge therefore may not we be vnder the dumbe ministers charge to heare them as our teachers and guides in Christ. Another proofe he giueth thus The dumbe ministers haue a calling by the Church as the scribes and Pharisees had therefore wee may lawfully heare them and receiue them as ministers In this proofe wee haue these matters to consider whether our dumbe ministers haue as good a calling as the scribes and Pharisees had Whether the bishops and their officers that call ministers are to be counted the Church whether if the church shoulde appoint and receiue a dumbe minister he had thereby any whit more authoritie or were any whit the rather to be receiued It is certaine that Ezra was a Scribe and a priest also of the sonnes of Aaron as wee may reade in the booke of Ezra and Nehemiah And in other places other Scribes also were mentioned which were both writers and preachers of the Lawe and worde of God And therefore Christ saith that they sure in Moses seate That is as it is in the 8. of Ezra They were chosen being men of vnderstanding to preache and minister to the people as their office required Yea by the Priestes and Elders consent of the Congregation were they chosen But dare Master Cartwright say that our dumbe ministers are thus chosen and called or dare he say that they sit in Moses seate If then he bring it for a good profe That the Scribes Pharises were to be heard because they fate in moses seat then it is also a good or better proofe That these dumbe ministers doe not sit in moses seat and therefore are not to be heard and receiued as ministers In the Church and assemblyes of the Iewes there could be 〈…〉 dumbe ministerie suffered as an ordinarie office and calling For herein consisted their ministerie To teach Iaacob the iudgements of God and Israel his lawes to put incense before his face and the burnt offering vpon the altar And so the dumbe minister can haue no office nor calling in the Church seeing there is no such ministerie nor parte of ministerie as to be a reading minister Furthermore if Master Cartwright saye that the Bishoppes and their officers are the Church and that therefore the dumbe ministers are called by the Church First it is to bee shewed that Master Cartwright can not prooue them to bee the Churche yea it was prooued before that they are not the Churche of God Then also he is against him selfe herein for he confessed before That the dumbe ministers are thrust vpon the Churche and howe then can they bee called by the Churche Thyrdely if they were called and then both the maner of calling bee altogether blasphemous and wicked and the office whereto they are called is none of the church offices and callings of what weight or authoritie shall their calling be Shall wee haue strange offices and ministeries in the Church which God hath not appointed or shall wee giue any authoritie or reuerence vnto them because men account of them shal the blasphemie and wickednesse of a number though they be named the Church make me any whit the more to receiue a dumbe minister because they doe wickedly and blasphemously call and authorize him Nay I ought not to followe a multitude to doe euill For it is not as Master Cartwright would haue it that the moe which sinne in a matter the lesse the sinne is but rather it is the more grieuous and more to be abhorred And Paul giueth this libertie to Timâ—thie That though other men euen the Elders and people shoulde choose any vnmeete minister yet hee shoulde not partake with them in their sinne And if in the acte of chusing the authoritie of the church is not to be regarded when it shamefully abuseth her authoritie then also in the wickednesse sinne that is wrought by the choyse it is lesse to be regarded For the reading ministerie is abominable wickednesse and as it first ouerthrewe the Churches of God and brought in Antichrist so it is still the doore and high way to all ignorance dissolutenesse and all wicked practises and customes Wherefore let Master Cartwright laye away his fonde distinction that they are ministers though they be vnlawfull ministers For if the reading ministerie be no office nor calling appointed by christ then is it an office of Antichrist And why then shoulde he sticke so much on the worde minister if they be Antichristian and deuelish ministers And what will he make of the Church It is indeede the house of the liuing God the piller and grounde of trueth But Master Cartwright will haue it to presume aboue Christ and so will make it an Antichrist For if it ordeine strange ministeries and offices in the church which christ and his Apostles neuer coulde doe nor woulde do doeth it not presume aboue Christ Christ and his Apostles coulde not thrust no not lawfull ministers vpon any congregation Neyther coulde he commande any Congregation or Church to receiue vnlawfull ministers and take them for their guydes Yet by Master Cartwrightes saying we may receiue such and if any such be thrust vpon vs we must account their ministery to be sanctified for the Churches sake which calleth them Surely if the Church doe vsurpe and chalenge such a power of ruling and such a holines in sanctifying which christ neuer had it becommeth the church of Antichrist and quite ouerthroweth the kingdom and priesthood of christ But let vs see further what M C. sayeth He pleadeth for the dumbe ministers by comparing them still with the Scribes and Pharises also with the priestes and teachers in the olde lawe with the chiefe Priestes at Christs comming and with vnsufficient and vnable Magistrates He wil haue them to haue as lawfull a calling and ministerie as any of these The Scribes sayth he taught vntruely were deceiued in the chiefe grouÌ„ds of religion yet were to be heard of the people therefore our dumbe ministers are as lawful ministers as they Likewise he saith of the priests of magistrates that some of the priests were dumbedogs some false teachers and some had not so lawful calling also that some Magistrates are not lawfull sufficient Magistrates and yet neither the Scribes nor the priestes nor the magistrates were to be reiected as no ministers nor Magistrats What true or false doctrine there is in all this we will shew by and by But graunt it true which he sayth of the scribes Priestes and Magistrates namely that they were so euill as he sayeth or taught such false doctrine yet he him selfe hath giuen the answere before to condemne him selfe For he sayde that the Scrybes were not to bee heard but in that they taught trueth and that our dumbe ministers were to be heard and receiued so farre as they can giue vs any thing that is of Christ. Nowe it is shewed that a
An ansvvere to MaSTER CARTVVRIGHT HIS LETTER FOR IOYNING with the English Churches whereunto the true copie of his sayde letter is annexed Ye are deceiued not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God Matth. 22. 29. Search the Scriptures for in them ye thinke to haue eternall life and they are they which testifie of me Iohn 5. 39. Let euery one that calleth on the Name of Christ depart from iniquitie 2 Tim. 2. 19. And these things that I say vnto you I say vnto all men watch Marke 13. 37. Imprinted at LONDON TO THE CHRISTIAN READER GRACE AND PEACE from God the Father and from the Lord Iesus Christ c. DEARELY beloued in the truth you haue in this booke an answere to an answere written vnto Master Harrison at Middleborough by Master Cartwright vpon occasion of controuersie betweene them concerning the true spouse of Christ or his ordinarie visible Churches in Englande And it is thought good to put this aunswere before the saide aunswere of Master Cartwright And although the godlywise and such as haue onely the glorie of God before their eyes and his pure Religion and seruice together with the saluation of their brethren will easily perceiue the reasons and causes yet least anye might take offence in this offence in this behalfe it is though meete to shewe some The first reason therefore is this Our corrupt nature is more prone and readie to imbrace the errour of man then the trueth of God Another cause was for that our vntowardenesse is so great that if an vntrueth be once receiued it worketh such a preiudice in the heades and mindes of men that they will heare neither God his worde neither reason or argument to the contrary be it neuer so good and effectuall A thirde cause mooued to place this answere first for that it shoulde bee an occasion vnto the Reader to vse more diligent conferring of this aunswere with the other for the better discerning and finding out of the trueth in this controuersie It is not necessarie that any man interpose his iudgement at this tyme but to attende by prayer the good euent which God will giue for the further manifestation of his trueth and abolishing of the contrary Nowe these fewe lynes are thought in this matter sufficient least it might seeme to foreiudge any trueth in either of these answeres or else by accepting of persons to foster corruption or a lye in any thing set foorth in the Name of the Lorde It is expedient therefore that the scriptures be faithfull searched by the godly Reader to see whether these thinges be euen so or not For no man that feareth God is ignorant of the doctrine of our Sauiour christ that whosoeuer breaketh the least of the commaundements of God and teacheth men so is least in the kingdom of heauen Neither yeâ— of this generall vniuersal doctrine of god his word true repentance vnfeined faith with amendment of life to be necessarie vnto saluation But it is said before these fewe things suffice Therefore the faithfull Reader is to be commended to the grace of God for his further direction in this behalfe farewell deare brother in the Lord. AN ANSVVERE TO MASTER CARTWRIGHT HIS LETTER FOR ioyning with the English Churches Whereunto the true Copie of his saide Letter is annexed AS there be alwayes both friendes and enemies to the Church of God so some doe giue their handes vnto it as friendes and some being enemies will giue it their left hande of friendshihpe to turne it cleane out of the way Howe friendly Master Cartwright is to it let vs examine by this his Letter and by the grace of God let vs trie out the trueth betwixt him and vs his letter is in many mens handes and was seene abroade vnsealed and open as if he cared not who shoulde reade it wherefore I may the more boldely answere it and the rather because the matter thereof is publike and pertaining to the Church of God It came but lately to my handes and was written as they tell me more then fiue or sixe weekes agoe wherein if he and others that prouoke him sought not to take vs tardie in the trueth and to worke vs trouble we would the lesâ—e haue regarded his letters but seeing he will needes make vs enemies to the common and ordinarie good lawes of the Realme to the Church of god in the Realme and to the peace and welfare of the common wealth Let vs answere his cauilles and for so much as we haue so small respite of time let vs shortly gather vp his vntrueths and errours and hurle them out by manifest knowen markes least any man doe beleeue them as trueth Master Cartwright doeth mooue the first question thus That the outwarde profession made by the lawes of the lande and the assemblyes of the Church helde accordingly are condened as vnlawfull this is the short saith he of M. Harrisons loÌ„ger discourse if he vse to make such shorts he is not meete to deale with short or with long Let him lappe vp his shortes in his budget and not sende them abroade in steade of our lengths or larger syse For at the first brunt he would set against vs all these enemies 1. The lawes of the lande 2. The outwarde profession by the lawes 3. The apparant Churches of Christ 4 and the lawfull assemblyes thereof First for the lawes he knewe well ynough what Lawes we meane namely certaine Popish Cannon lawes which though the Magistrates doe tollerate for a time yet the common good lawes of the lande are wholy against them Wherefore let him not deale doubly with vs as hauing our true meaning in his heart to fumble out of his mouth or to shuffle vp in his letter a contrary meaning we know that the lawes doe punish all outward grosse wickednesse or suffer it to be punished as namely Idolatrie forswearing vsurping of Lordshippe rebellion murther fleshly filthinesse theft oppression raylings grieuous slanders drunkennes c. and if there be any vice not punishable by the lawe yet the lawes doe suffer either the Church or euery housholder or gouernour to correct so it be not against lawe such as are vnder their charge So then the lawes are a wall to the Church rounde about they stande vp for it as an armed man that it may shewe it selfe openly without shame or feare For when they put downe all outwarde grosse wickednesse and will not suffer it they doe as it were scatter and driue awaye darkenesse from the Church that men may see it visible and cleare as the Sunne Likewise for the outwarde profession by the lawes Master Cartwright woulde playe at handie dandie with vs and yet not giue vs that hand which we doe choose for there is an outwarde profession after the olde Popish traditions and orders let him holde this profession in his left hande and there is a profession more syncerely by some after some better Lawes and Orders this he shoulde houlde in his
the outward Church when there is a wicked profession contrary to the doctrine of faith Againe a man may beleeue be wonne to faith by meanes of some godly brother and that before he haue outwardly ioyned him selfe to the Church so in gods secret election he is of the church yet because he hath not the outwarde profession can not be sayde to be the outwarde Church But here Master Cartwright though he dare not iustifie the blind reading Ministers yet he doeth praise them as doing some good But of this matter also it followeth afterwarde to intreate as whether he that doeth so much hurt and mischiefe can be saide to doe any good at all Likewise it is a trifling to no purpose that he sayth the Church ceaseth not when a minister faileth or wanteth for we knowe that euen two or three agreeing together in the trueth separate from wickednesse if none other will ioyne with them euen they are an outwarde and visible Church and haue this power of Christ euen to binde men on earth and to loose them on earth that they may be bound or loosed in heauen For though by persecution they be driuen into corners yet their good profession is outward and visible in it selfe and yet hidden from their enemies which are vnworthy to see it for the church may increase into thousandes and decrease also in this worlde euen to a litle householde and to foure or fiue persons For Ierusalem fell away and became as Sodome and Egypt and the Lorde did blot out the whole name and church of the Iewes and called his people by another name as it is written Isay 65. Actes 11. But in these latter dayes it is prophecied that the Church shoulde be small hidden and driuen into corners So that as in Noas time eight persons onely escaped euen so when the sonne of man shall come he shall not finde faith on the earth those dayes before his comming shall be so hard that scarce any flesh shall be saued Indeed one person will not make a church for the Church must needes be a number but where two or three are gathered together in the name of Christ there is he in the middes of them And the housholde of Philemon is named a Church Likewise the housholde of Olymphis of Aquila Priscilla and others For if they haue the power which Paul calleth the power of our Lorde Iesus Christ and doe meete together fewe or moe in the Name of Christ they are surely the Church of Christ. Therefore this doctryne is still agaynst Master Cartwright for neyther the word in the preachers mouth nor the Sacraments can make an outwarde Church except they haue the power of Christ to separate the vnworthye For Master C. confesseth that the name of a Church shall remayne though the preacher and his preaching doe cease and is wanting for a tyme. But without this power of binding that is of declaring mens wickednes and forsaking their fellowshippe to leaue them vnto Satan being open and grieuous offendours there is no name nor shewe of the church of Christ remaining If he demaunde proofe hereof the scriptures are manifest For God hath giuen this power not onely to the preachers but to all the saintes of god as appeareth by that Psalme namely By the worde of god in their mouthes to binde euen the Kings and nobles of the earth and to execute vpon them his spirituall iudgement the text followeth that this honour shall be to all the Saintes Wherefore it is not peculiar to some one or to â—ome fewe alone but it belongeth to all yea this is the heritage of all the Lordes seruants as Isaiah testifieth In deede it is true that we ought ioyntly to execute this power but if others will not or bee in bondage that they can not ioyne with vs therein then they are not the Church but the bondslaues of men For this power belongeth to euery one seuerally to forsake wicked fellowship and there is a coÌ„mandement giuen to euery one to forsake the vnfruitfull workes of darkenesse to be no companions with such to haue no fellowshippe with them to withdraw our selues from euery brother that walketh inordinately yea and to turne away from all which hauing a shew of godlinesse doe deny the power thereof For if we walke in darknes and say we haue fellowship with god we lye sayth S. Iohn and doe not truely But if we walke in the light we haue fellowship one with another otherwise that fellowship holdeth not And in Hosea commandement is giuen vnto all euen to pleade against the mother church if it fal away that as god doth forsake it so euery one also should stand against it if it become abhominable And so also all are commanded to saue them selues from a froward generation But it may be here obiected howe we answere to the place in Matth. 18 that we must complaine to the Church and then if the offender heare not the Church we must take him for a heathen and publican I grant that if the offence be priuate he must be first priuately dealt with But this proueth not that either for priuate or open offences we must waite on them for redresse which are enemies of the Church and which haue no power to binde and lose as hath the church Wherefore let not Master Cartwright accompt so much of the assemblyes he speaketh of for what is a Church without this power we spake of yea what are those assemblies which in steade of it do holde that Antichristian power of the spirituall courtes or rather are helde in bondage by it But Master Cartwright alloweth not onely those assemblies but also those vile courtes and officers and Bishoppes set ouer them to be all the Church of God For he sayeth afterwarde namely in the sixt page that the calling of the dumbe ministers whichis by them is a calling of the church and sufficient to make them ministers yea and he seemeth to allowe also their suspendings of preachers as if it were done by the Church so that both for complaint and for redresse of defaults for establishing and gathering the churches hee alloweth or tollerateth those officers and courtes to haue the power and authoritie of the church But God hath appointed no such kinde of complaintes in the Church neither such kinde of redresse nor ordering of matters First because they redresse and order matters by money Brybes Fees Ciuill penaltyes c. wherein the Church discipline ought not to meddle For the weapons of our warefare sayeth Paul are not carnall He meaneth that the Church maye not deale in matters of reformation as doeth the common wealth and this present worlde The Church can deale no further then onely by rebuke warning and exhortation out of gods worde and by forsaking casting of fellowship in grosser sinnes And therefore rightly may the word and his
the name of God figured the visible Church of god so that this matter toucheth M. C. very neerely For if it be true that as all sacrifices then so all sacraments now are rebellion against the Lord being ministred without the visible Church of God then that sinne which he calleth a fault shalbe found to be more then a fault euen rebellion falling away from the Lord. And this is a sinne of execration euen abomination in the eies of the Lord to measure the visible church of god by a compasse of ground by a nuÌ„ber of housholdes by slint of tythes tenthes as we see in our parishes For the place maketh not the church neither is the church or true religioÌ„ to be measured by the place as Christ him selfe teacheth vs for neither in the mountaine where the father worshipped neither yet at Ierusale the citie of god was God any more to be worshipped but the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit truth By which words Christ meaneth thus much first that the spirit trueth being shewed by the outward good profession declare the outwarde Church of God and not the places neither temples nor cities nor parishes For in whome we see the spirit that is the graces of the spitit by their outward good works and the trueth that is the lawes and word of Christ which is true to be kept obserued them only we must call the Church of God And therefore in Isaiah it was shewed beforeâ— that with those only which turne from iniquitie in Iacob will the Lord make his couenant euen his spirite which is vpon them and his words which he hath put in their mouth Secondly by those wordes Christ teacheth that al the Iewish ceremonies shuld be abolished because the chiefest euen Ierusalem and the Temple should be no more For the temple at Ierusalem circumcision were the chiefest How great the citie and the Temple were it appeareth by that prayer of Salomon 1. Kinges 8. 29. And by sundry other places Deuteronom 12. 11. Ierem. 3. 17. Ezek. 43. 7. c. And of circumcision Paul reasoneth with the Galatians That if they be circumcised they are bounde to keepe the whole ceremoniall lawe for it being one of the chiefest ceremonies if they still obserued it they should also obserue all the rest but if they reiected the chiefest they should also reiect all the rest And to that ende Christ reasoneth that seeing all things are nowe to be verified in spirit and trueth therefore all ceremoniall and superstitious worship shoulde cease As also Paul reasoneth That if they be led by the spirit they are not vnder the ceremonies of the lawe So then it appeareth that tithings because they were ceremonies belong not to the Church And because such abomination is committed by them namely the due planting and gathering of the church is hindred and the libertie of the Church for remouing euil ministers stopped they are euen the execrable things which Achan did steale For if the common wealth as it ought had long agoe taken from the ministerie those tenthes and Popish liuings then Iericho being once destroyed I meane the Antichristian churches once put downe had not so soone bene built againe but nowe such tythings benefices and Bishoprickes remaining they haue builded by them an other Iericho in steade of the first in deede somewhat differing from the first but as contrary to Gods church and holy citie as was the first yea and Master Cartwright also wil iustifie that execrable stealth of Achan and call Iericho I meane those woefull assemblies and Parishes the visible church and citie of God But cursed be the man before the Lord saith Ioshua that riseth vp and buildeth againe this citie Iericho he shall lay the foundation thereof in his eldest sonne in his yongest sonne shall he set vp the gates of it Satan is that enuious and malitious man which hath builded againe this citie his eldest sonnes were the first beginners of this lamentable state whome God did afterwarde scourge and cal to repentance in the time of Queene Marie and brake their enterprise and his youngest sonnes are these latter reformers whome God also will certainely plague except they repeÌ„t But to come againe to Master Cartwrights proofe let him not say that we count any assembly whether they haue a dumbe minister oâ— haue none to be the outwarde Churches of God except they keepe the couenant by the outwarde discipline and gouernement of the Church Further Master Cartwright saith that in such assemblyes the dumbe minister is not chiefe but Christ and that wee make nothing of the dumbe minister and yet will needes haue him to be the head of those Churches Indeede we make nothing of him concerning any goodnes that is by him for he helpeth nothing thereto but concerning the mischiefe and hurt which he doeth or the sinne that is by him let him not say wee make nothing of it For if they be beastes as it is written so that by their want of vnderstanding and conscience the flockes of the pastour be scattered and perish shall we say it is nothing If they be those foolish shepheardes whome the Lorde saith by Zecharie he will raise vp in iudgement to sell and to slay the sheepe to eate the flesh of the fat and to teare them in pieces which also shall not looke for them that are lost nor seeke the tender lambes nor heale that is hurt nor feede them but rather feede them selues vpon their flesh shall we make nothing of such ministers But go to he sayeth that Christ is the head of those assemblyes and not the dumbe ministers That Christ is their head or fouÌ„dation he can not prooue as was shewed before wherefore for any thing he can prooue the dumbe ministers in the absence of the Bishops and their officers are the chiefe and heades ouer them That they are alwayes chiefe we saide it not for when the Bishoppes which are greater vsurpers are present then they are heades and both the dumbe ministers and hireling preachers may serue well ynough to bee the tayle For Satan hath all wayes by such as by the taile of the dragon drawing the third part of the starres of heauen and cast them to the earth What shall we vnderstande by heauen but the shewe of the church as it were set in heauen by the starres but the children of the church falling to wickednes and loosing their light Such are the people of those assemblies whom Satan hath cast vpon the earth as starres â—out light He bringeth another proofe by Corah and his company For they saith he were not cast foorth of the lords host by Moses therefore should not these assemblyes also which haue a dumbe minister thrust vpon them be reputed for runnegates from the Lorde well let vs see was not in deede Corah with those that claue to him put apart from the hoste
with it All which indgements doe teach the Church at this day true iudgement namely to set it selfe both against small against great companyes if they withstande or refuse the true discipline of the church For Ieremie saith of him selfe that he was as a contentious man and a man that did striue with the whole earth euery one did curse him his owne familiars watched for his halting as he saith in another place he was in derision daily and euery one mocked him for he called thē al an assembly of rebels priuate famillar felloshippe he brake off with them as was shewed before and openly he came not amongest them but only to proclaime their sinnes and preach vengeance against them If it bee then asked whether Ieremie did condemne them al as none of the church and people of God let Ieremie him selfe answere it for indeede by their vsuall and common profession and trade of life they shewed not them selues to be the people and Church of god For as it is written both the great men and rulers and also the inferiour and poorer people had all together broken the yoke and burst the bandes In the streetes of Ierusalem and in the open places there could not a man be fonnde that did execute iudgement and sought the trueth that the Lord might spare the citie And he sayeth in another place They are all rebellious traytours they are brasse and yron they are all destroyers they shall call them reprobate siluer because the Lorde hath reiected them From the least of them euen to the greatest of them euery one is giuen vnto couetousnesse and from the Prophet euen vnto the Priest they all deale falsely They are all vnto me saith the Lorde againe as Sodome and the inhabitants thereof as the people of Gomorrah yet I doe not doubt but that there was the Church and children of God amongest them For Ieremie him selfe and Barucke was with them for Isaiah witnesseth that when iudgement was turned backewarde and iustice stoode a farre off so that all trueth and equitie failed yet I say there were some that refrained from euill and were made a pray to the rest In deede openly there was none to reforme the church of all his children there was none that tooke her by the hande to bring her into the way For the Lorde sought for a man among them that shoulde make the hedge and stande in the gappe before him for the land that he should not destroy it but he found none Yet there were those that had a marke on their foreheades as mourning and crying for all the abominations that were committed And if it be asked whether these were a visible church of God it is answered by Ezekiel in another place that among the heathen and in the countreyes where the Lorde did scattere them he was as a litle Sanctuarie vnto them whereby is meant that though they wanted the visible signe of the tēple and Sanctuarie at Ierusalem yet their holy conuersation shoulde shewe the Lord to be among them and that the Lorde would iudge betweene sheepe and sheepe betweene the rammes and the goates It is manifest that the Synagogogues of the Iewes in Antiochia and Ephesus were the churches of God yet when Christ was preached vnto thē and they withstoode Paul and Barnabas did Paul or Barnabas stay for the consent of the most part to cast them off Did they not foorthwith separate the disciples and gather the church apart from thē yea will M C. say for they were worthy to be cast off seeing they refused Christ. Then belike it is true that one man or a fewe persons may cast off whole churches for some greater sinnes and offences How then is it true which M. C. saith that one man being founde iudged to deserue separation should not be separate except the most part do consent He wil say peraduēture that he excepteth idolaters apostates frō the Lord. why then did he giue a generall rule without naming such exceptiōs yet Christ for all disobedience in refusing any message of God doth giue cōmandement euen to all and euery one of his messengers to cast off whole cities and churches as being in a worse case then Sodome and Gomorrha For if they receiue you not sayeth he nor heare your wordes when ye depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete against them He will answere that their sinne also of not receiuing the messengers of Christ was the sinne of Apostacie And is not this a message from Christ when one or a fewe persons doe iustly rebuke the congregation for ouerthrowing the Lordes discipline and treading his scepter vnder foote and is not his scepter cast downe and his kingdome polluted when he which is manifestly knowen and prooued to deserue separation can not be cast out But againe he will say that those cities and churches were not cast off for refusing the Lordes messengers but for refusing such a message as they brought namely that the Christ and Messiah was nowe come in the flesh Surely til after the death of Christ they had no such message For Christ straightly charged his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Iesus the Christ meaning that till his death and rising againe it is not meete that that doctrine shoulde be blased abroade but it was sufficient for that time if they generally beleeued in the Messiah as the Iewes also did and refused him not when he shoulde be preached more clearely yet long before his death was the commandement giuen concerning those houses or cities which shoulde refuse his messengers yet in deede it is true that they which refuse his discipline and gouernement do also refuse Christ him selfe and so it is the sinne of apostacie For so it is written Those mine enemies which woulde not that I shoulde reigne oner them bring hither and slay them before me But hereto they will answere that yet till iudgement was executed by the Lorde him selfe they were called his Citizens for so the text sayeth that his Citizens hated him and sent an ambassage after him saying we wil not haue this man to reigne ouer vs. But doe they not knowe that they are called his Citizens because they should haue bene so and were not but became his enemies Indeede they were Citizens in name only but not in deed So Ierusalem in name was called the citie of God yet in deede it became that great Citie as it is written which spiritually is called Sodome and Aegypt where our Lorde also was crucified The Iewes were planted a noble vine as Ieremie witnesseth and Isaiah sayeth that the vineyard of the Lorde of Hostes was the house of Israel and the men of Iudah were sometymes his pleasant plant but nowe they are turned vnto me sayeth the Lorde into the plantes of a strange vine yea that we be
not beguiled with the Names of Gods house Church and Citie he him selfe hath giuen it a name as it is written the name of that city shalbe from that day The Lord is there And in this respect also it is called in Ieremie the throne of his glorie As who say that amoÌ„g whoÌ„soeuer we see not the Lord to reigne by his gouernement discipline as it were in the throne of his kingdom them we shuld â—â—dge not to be the city church of God And though the church â—o pray that God would not cast downe the throne of his glory nor breake the conant with them yet Ieremie bringeth in those wordes as a complaint of the penitent and not to proue that the wretched sorte either helde the couenant or were the throne of God Wherefore to conclude this matter The path and way of the Lord is holy as the prophet teacheth no polluted shal passe by it there shalbe no lyon no noysome beast shall ascend by it neither shall they be founde there whereby is meant that open and grosse sinners shall not be suffred in the Church For either they shall be separate by excommunication or els all the godly shall withdraw them selues from them and hold them accursed As it is written If any man loue not the Lorde Iesus let him be had in execration yea excommunicate to death And surely they loue not the Lorde but are his enemies as was shewed before which refuse his gouernment that he can not reigne ouer them And againe it is written This is the loue of God that we keepe his commandemeÌ„ts and he that sayeth I knowe god or I loue god and keepe not his commaudements is a lyar and the trueth is not in him Not that we can keepe his commandements without all breach or offence for wee are not Donatistes as the aduersaries slaÌ„der vs that we should say we may be without sinne or that the church may be without publike offences or if there fall out some sort of grosser sinnes that therefore it should cease to be the church of God we teach no such doctrine but if in any Church such grosse sinnes bee incurable and the Church hath not power to redresse them or rebelliously refuseth to redresse them then it ceaseth to be the Church of God and so remaineth till it repent take better order And here coÌ„meth in that question to be decided whether without the discipline coÌ„manded of Christ any assembly or church may be called the church of Christ M. C. saith that for want of this discipline we giue al the english assemblies the blacke stone of condemnation Howe truely he writeth this of vs his conscience is witnes for we neuer said that all the English assemblyes doe want discipline Thogh this matter be sufficiently debated before yet let vs weigh Master Cartwrights answere H sayeth that faith in Christ is the essence being or life of the church as for discipline it is but accidental and therefore the Church of God may haue her being and life and be named the church of God without discipline what worde of God doeth he bring for all this we knowe in deede that Christ is the life and essence of the Church For except as braunches we abide in him which is the true vine we can bring foorth no fruite we are cast foorth as branches and are to be consumed with fire Christ is the resurrection and the life He is the way the trueth and the life So it is true that Christ is the life of the church as for faith it is but the hand whereby we take hold of this life As it is written he that beleeueth in the sonne hath euerlasting life and he addeth vpon it as a tryall of faith euen our obedience to the sonne and saith he that obeyeth not the sonne shall not see life but the wrath of god abideth on him Nowe it was prooued before that they which are guilty of such horrible abuses so grossely offende by their corrupt and false profession haue not this faith neither do holde Christ the foundation But see how fondly blasphemously Master Cartwright distinguiseth He will haue a dead Christ or an Idol christ to be the life of the church For he will ioyne the church to Christ without the discipline and gouernement of Christ. He putteth asunder the church and the discipline of Christ and so must â—eedes sunder Christ from his owne discipline or gouernement Nowe Paul calleth this discipline the power of our Lorde Iesus christ So if wee seuer christ and his power what is he but a dead christ Also by his discipline and gouernement he hath ouer vs he is our king as againe it is written the scepter of thy kingdome is a scepter of righteousnesse So if we seuer christ and his discipline rule and gouernement what is he but an Idol christ If Master Cartwright say that by the scepter there is meant nothing else but the power of the worde of God I graunt it as Paul saith I will knowe not the speach or wordes of these men but the power For the kingdome of God is not in worde but in power saith he and in the psalme The Lorde shall sende the rodde of this power out of Zion And the weapons of our warrefare are mighty through God as againe he writeth So then if the power of the word to bynde lose to remit or refaine mens sinnes to promise lyfe and to rebuke and giue ouer to execration be taken from Christ or the church of Christ what remaineth but an Idol or counterfet christ an Idol or counterfet church Thus while M C. wil haue faith in christ to be the life of the church without discipline he doth leaue christ himselfe without life as one that is dead or turned into an Idol yet further he proceedeth in his absurdities blasphemies saith that fayth only is the essence being or life of the church and that besides faith nothing is necessary to the very essence and being of the church Thus be like children which yet through want of discretion can not haue faith shall be without the essence life of the church How corrupt doctrine this is I neede not heere stand on it If he say that by the faith of the pareÌ„ts they haue life esseÌ„ce in the church the scripture is against him For by the promise the couenant made to the righteous to their seed are their childreÌ„ reckoned in the church not by their faith Therefore the faythful are called by Paul the children of promise For we are sayth he after the maner of Isaac children of the promise and againe to the Romans the children of the promise are counted for the true seede of Abraham But that by any mans faith his children or others should haue life essence in the church is the same false doctrine we refuted
before For the iust shall liue by his fayth saith Habbakk If then a mā shall liue by his owne faith he shall not liue by the faith of another And by baptising into the fayth and profession of any we must vnderstande that we are baptized to holde the same fayth and profession when wee come to discretion and not to haue our lyfe and saluation by an other mans fayth when as yet we haue not the same fayth our selues And if wee shall liue by faith then fayth is the meanes to come by that lyfe and is not the life it selfe Wherefore Christ is the life and essence of the Church and not faith Nowe Christ is made as no christ vnto vs except we holde him and ioyne with him as our annointed King priest and Prophet For so the word Christ doth signifie And here I demande of M. C. whether the Kingdome Priesthood Prophecie of Christ be of the essence and life of the Church I am sure he dare not say nay to this and why then will he haue the Lordes discipline or gouernement to be but an accident or hangby to the church For by Christ as paul sheweth that is by the graces of Christs kingdom priesthood ◠prophecie all his body that is all his Church are coupled knit together by euery ioynt and so receyueth increase and edyfiyng in God So take away the kingdom and gouernement of Christ and there can be no ioyning nor coupling together of the church no offices nor callings in the church yea no face or shewe or rather no part signe or token of the church For these graces do we receiue of Christs kingdome or from his imperiall Maiestie And therefore it is writtē that when he ascended vp on hie as our triumphant King and Gouernour he led captiuitie captiue and gaue giftes vnto men and againe he ascended far aboue all heauēs that he might fill all things And wherfore is the church and people of God in so many places called the throne of God and the kingdome of God but only to shewe that without the discipline and gouernement of Christ therein it loseth euē her essēce life being in christ And this M C. is forced to cōfesse For he saith that the ministery of the word is a part of this discipline the obedience of the people is another so reasoneth that take away all discipline euery part thereof there remaineth no church of christ Thus the truth hath made him to yeeld in battell and turned him backewarde and yet he will resist as it were going backward For how backewardly doeth he deale in this matter to say that discipline is not pertaining to the essence of the church now for wāt of discipline to take away the essence and name of the Church Againe to say without discipline there may be a church and nowe to say that without discipline there can be no church So rather then he will be without an enemie he will fight with a shadowe For nowe full wisely he doeth cut discipline into partes namely the ouersight rule and gouernement of such as haue charge in the church and the obedience of the people thereto which two partes indeede doe conteine all the other partes and therefore very vainely he speaketh of other partes of discipline as if they might be separate and secluded from these For he can shewe none in the church but either gouernours or vnder gouernement neither can he shewe any duetie in the church but onely the dueties of gouernement or of submission and obedience neither any worke matter businesse or ministerie in the church but either of charge and ouersight or vnder charge or ouersight Wherefore take away both gouernement and ouersight also obedience and submission and there can be no other part of discipline remaining For the dueties of teaching exhorting improouing rebuking c. also all dueties of examining and deciding controuersies of reforming abuses of relieuing and maintaining the afflicted and poore of separating the vnworthy c. are contained vnder that parte of gouerning Also all dueties of beleefe and learning the trueth of reuerence honour meekenesse and all kinde of seruice and vpright behauiour c. are contained vnder that part of obedience and submission Thus it is manifest that through want of discipline there is no naturall coniunction of the partes and members of the church together so that both the head and vitall partes are wanting and all the other partes are wholy and throughly either displaced and peruerted or vtterly lost and perished But why doeth he not shewe what part of discipline may be wanting yea and of those two partes which he sayeth can not be wanting yet what defect there may be Indeede it is commanded to forgiue a brother if he sinne seuen times in a day and seuen times in a day turne againe to vs saying it repenteth me yea we must forgiue though it were vnto seuentie times seuen tymes But yet Christ giueth no power to forgiue if a brother remaine wilfull in his sinne yea if it be but a priuate sinne I am to proceede against him and am not to cease till either I haue brought him to repentance or haue broken off all fellowshippe with him as with a brother But we must take heed that they be brethren and not dogs and scorners whō we rebuke and labour to redresse For if thy brother trespasse against thee saith Christ c. then he sheweth howe to deale and complaine for reformation of a brother But concerning scorners it is written He that reprooueth a scorner purchaseth to him selfe shame and he that rebuketh the wicked getteth him selfe a blot againe Rebuke not a scorner least he hate thee but rebuke a wise man and he will loue thee But to be short All the discipline of the church consisteth herein first that the church be gathered of the worthie as it is written Enquire who is worthie and againe Giue ye not that which is holy to dogges neither cast ye your pearles before swine And in Ieremie If thou take away the precious from the vile then shalt thou be as my mouth let them returne vnto thee but returne not thou vnto them And in Ezekiel They shall reach my people the difference betweene the holy and prophane and cause them to discerne betweene the vncleane and the cleane And in Malachie the Lorde reiected their offerings because they offered the scrobled and the lame and the sicke and the blinde which figureth the reiecting of our sacraments when dogges and swyne do communicate therein When Papistes and Atheistes drunkardes Maygamesters blasphemers raylers fighters and such like are presented as sweete bread at the table of the Lorde The seconde point of discipline is that the couenant promises and Gospel of Christ and the sacraments of his kingdome being established among the worthie then that they keepe the couenant sacraments vnpolluted
both for the sinnes of the priests and of the people which doeth plainely prooue that by one common doctrine they acknowledged all to bee sinners and to haue neede of the grace and mercie of God What then is to be meant By those heauie burdens which they layde on mens shoulders Master Cartwright sayeth They were the burdens of the morall lawe that is the dueties of righteousnesse which all men perpetually ought to obserue and doe Surely this burden both Christ him selfe and all the Apostles and prophets doe lay on vs more straightly then euer did the Pharisees For what strayght commaundements doeth Christ geue Against vnaduised anger reproching offences against lust of the heart wanton lookes and all occasions of sinne Also against swearing against reuenge against hatred against hypocrisie against distrustfulnesse and a number such like And he threatneth in the fift of Matthewe That for breaking the least commandement a man shall bee thrust out of the kingdome of God And howe often is the burden of the Lorde the burden of the Lorde repeated in the Prophetes wherefore that burden or yoke is rather meant which is named in the Actes That they tempted God to lay a yoke on the disciples neckes which neither they nor their fathers were able to beare This burden was the ceremonies of the olde Lawe which were more intollerable to others then to the Scribes and Pharises For they being most of them Priestes and Leuites were not to bring their tythes first fruites and offringes to Ierusalem as did others from all quarters round about For they dwelt at or about Ierusalem especially those whome Christ rebuketh or else came to Ierusalem to minister in their course And they tooke tythes and payed none saue onely the tenth parte of the tythes that were brought them They did very straightly looke to their tenthes and to all clensings purifyings vowes and offrings c. for they were their liuing and maintenance Wherefore it being a great trouble and burden to others to come from all places of the worlde to Ierusalem euery yeere as the Lawe then did bynde them also to pay their vowes and their tenthes and first fruites and to obserue their purifyings c. and no trouble at all to the Scribes which kept at Ierusalem no maruaile though Christ say they layed heauie burdens vpon other meÌ„s shoulders but would not touch them them selues with the leact of their fingers For there being an hundreth occasions in the yeere whereby the people might become vncleane as by touching tasting handling by the death of any that should dye by them by diseases by ignorances and escapes c. they were to bee cleansed by the sprinckeling water and to bring their offeringes to Ierusalem But Master Cartwright might haue alleadged a more likely proofe then these out of the Romanes namely That Israel sought not righteousnesse by faith but as it were by the workes of the Lawe for they haue stumbled at the stumbling stone For answere hereto we shewed before that the Israelites made a profession of their faith in the Messiah euen till the tyme that he plainely shewed him selfe and then they reiecting him and yet beleeuing that he was still to come their faith became as no faith they beleeued in a Messiah which was to come but they stumbled at him which was come And so he was vnto them that stumbling stone and rocke of offence And so this worde as or as it were is well added of Paul For hee meaneth that their doctrine and profession was not openly nor directly to seeke righteousnesse by the bare Lawe but by their rebellion against the Messiah that was come they did as much and as they tearme it indirectly So as it were they sought righteousnesse by the Lawe when they kept the ceremonial law without the Christ that was come though not simply without the Christ they looked for yea they â—eleeued that the ceremonies did still offer and represent Christ vnto them so made profession that to keepe the ceremonial law was to keepe their faith and beleefe in Christ But they hauing refused Christ coÌ„e alreadie and christ hauing abolished that law they might well be said to seek righteousnes without faith in christ Thus it is manifest that the doctrine sacrifices of the Iewes was to haue righteousnes and atonement by Christ whome their sacrifices did signifie but their deeds and practise in refusing Christ was as much as to seeke righteousnesse by the law Nowe those which refused christ and beleeued not in him were vtterly separate as was shewed before from the communion and fellowship of the churche And therefore this matter is altogeter against him As for that place of luke he abuseth it too much for the parable of a pharise which speaketh of matters as though they were when in deede they were not he alleadgeth for proofe of all the Pharisees doctrine First the fault of one Pharise if he had bene faultie can not prooue them all faultie then also the parable of a fault doeth shewe it to be no fault committed but imagined or supposed as if it were committed Thirdlye Christ in that place mindeth not to rebuke any doctrine of the Scribes and Pharisees but as the text sayeth he spake a parable vnto certaine which trusted in them selues that they were iust and despised others None are named to teeche any such doctrine but certaine are rebuked for trusting in themselues wherefore the like proofe to this might I alleadge against him namely that very many in England both preachers and others doe trust in their riches or power or wisedome or good workes c. Therefore the preachers in Englande doe teach men to trust in theÌ„selues But as this proofe is fonde so the conclusion that followeth is according For he concludeth that the dumbe ministerie is as lawful and good as the ministerie of the Scribes which taught vntruely saith he in the chiefe grounds of religion Although he cannot proue such vntrue doctrine yet howe doeth it followe that their ministerie which faileth in all poyntes shoulde bee as good as theirs which fayleth but in some poyntes For the dumbe ministers wee prooued to haue no parte nor worke in the ministerie And the Scribes hee confessed before to sit in Moses seate to teache true doctrine to haue a calling by the Churche Agayne they must needes edifie more which preache much trueth then they whiche are no preachers at all But the Scripture is playne that if anye preache muche trueth and yet doe preache heresies withall they are to be auoided as it is written Reiect him that is an heretike after once or twise admonition And though the Churche is to admonishe such yet if it will not or can not then any man particularly hath this libertie to admonishe except for his scornefulnesse and obstinacie he be vnworthie And then we are forbidden to receiue them to house or
false message as if it were true Againe that anye dumbe dogges which coulde not barke did minister the sacrisices Master Cartwright can not prooue yea before we haue prooued the contrary For the sacrifices were alwayes ministred as is shewed before by Priestes that coulde preache and did preache The occasion for which the sacrifice was offered was shewed before The sinnes of those that brought the sacrifice was confessed ouer the head of the Sacrifice c. All these thinges are manifest in the olde Lawe Indeede there were dumbe dogges among the priestes for there were diuers cities which belonged to the Priestes onely yet none snche being able nor vsing to minister the sacrifices wee speake not here of Idolatrous sacrifices I saye it is follye to imagine that the people did bring their sacrifices to such But yet if they did bring we haue prooued before that they ought not to haue done so If Master Cartwright saye that the Churche indeede might refuse the false prophetes and put them from the sacrifices but not euery particular man in the Churche I aunswere that the question is not of forbidding and debarring from the sacrifices but of withdrawing our selues from wicked companions in the sacrifices And so it followeth that if the whole Churche ought not to communicate with such in the sacrifices then no part nor member of the Churche ought to communicate and if the whole Churche doe sinne and commit wickednesse by communicating with suche then if any amongest them will refuse to communicate they shall doe well and shall not sinne thereby That the whole Churche ought not to communicate but to cast out such from amongest them it is prooued before But here is that place of Paul to be answered which the aduersaryes lay against vs whiche is that some preache Christ of enuie and strife and some also of good will and Paul reioyceth that Christ is preached all manner wayes By which wordes they woulde gather that we may communicate in the Churche with false teachers false prophetes heretikes and vngodly wretches Howe shamelessely they gather this euen Paul in the same Epistle answereth them for he biddeth them beware of dogges beware of euill workers beware of the concision Woulde Paul haue dogges and euill workers to communicate in the Churche Nay doeth he not call them concision from the Church meaning that if they preached circumcision they must needes be cut off from the Church and others also with them And so their circumcision shoulde rather be concision that is a cutting and renting of the Churche in sunder Paul is so farre from reioysing in such preachers that in the eighteenth verse he geueth warning of them with weeping teares and calleth them enemies of the crosse of Christ belligods proude and worldly men and appointed to damnation And Paul would not onely not suffer the churche to communicate with such as is largely prooued before but wisheth they were euen dead and destroyed which so did disquiet the churche What is then to be meant by Paules ioy that Christ was preached all manner wayes Surely this that so the church and the discipline thereof were kept vpright we neede not care for the enemies thereof yea and if in the churche also the doctrine of hypocrites doe more good then their secret faultes can doe hurt we are therein to reioyce For Paul â—peaketh of the enuie and contentious minde of such preachers and not of anye grosse wickednesse that brake foorth by them Further if some be deceiued in doctrine and bee otherwyse mynded then the trueth is God shall reueile the same vnto them sayeth Paul he meaneth so long as they are weakelings and not obstinate enemies For ignonorance so long as it is not a sotted nor wilfull ignorance nor ioyned with other grosse wickednesse is to bee borne with But if any man abuse his ignorance so that he breaketh but the least commaundement and teacheth men so as Christ hath tolde vs he shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen that is he shall be cleane cast out of the kingdome or if any man by his ignorance or false doctrine be contentious we haue no such custome saieth Paul neither the Churches of God Yea the custome of the Church is as it is written againe To marke those diligentlye which cause diuision amongest vs contrary to the trueth we haue learned and to auoyde them Howe then shoulde Paul reioyce in contentious preaching Surely as Paul reioyced so Christ desired to haue contention in the worlde Contention I say in the worlde but not in the Church For I came not sayeth Christ to giue peace on earth but rather debate I am come saith he to put fire on the earth and what is my desire if it were alreadie kindled For from hencefoorth there shall be fiue in one house deuided three against two and two against three The father against the sonne and the soÌ„ne against the father c. Now there is a lawful ioy in this coÌ„tention not that meÌ„ shuld be so wicked nether that such contention shoulde be among the true professors but that the warfare against wickednes is begun and that the treuth worketh and preuaileth thereby This was Pauls ioy and this should be our ioy if meÌ„ in the world fall out contend and disagree about the Gospel for then shall the trueth be sifted and boulted out and the Church of Christ shalbe builded and growe the more mightely But Paul discommendeth contention in the Church and saith that when they come together into one place with such dissention among them this is not to eate the Lordes Supper And here also is that place answered that some men did build hay or stubble in the spirituall buylding so their worke caÌ„not abyd the fyer of Gods word but shall burne yet they shalbe safe theÌ„selues Paul thereby rebuketh their vaine eloquence other insirmities in preaching as being but haâ—e and stubble that shall burne but they them selues being purified from such infirmities as it were by fire shall be safe yea and though some be false apostles yet if they worke so deceitfully and so cunningly transforme them selues that none can prooue them to be obstinate false teachers nor charge them with open grosse wickednesse they are to bee suffered as brethren in the churche But it is beâ—ere sufficiently prooued that if any be an obstinate heretike or an open wicked wretch he is not to be suffered Againe the aduersaries doe set the practise of the Apostles and brethren against vs which did communicate as they say in the offerings and sacrifices of the wicked Iewes and persecuting priestes And Master Cartwright bringeth in Christ who commanded the leprous man purged from his leprosie to shewe him selfe to the priest and to offer his oblation To them both we answere that neither the Apostles brethren did communicate with the wicked Iewes and persecuting priestes neither also
assumption is euideÌ„t in that by beleeuing that christ it our righteousnes we are made members of his body thereby at liuely stones laide vpon him as vpon a foundation we growe into one spiritual house with him now that they haue the like precious faith with vs is conuinced not onely by their owne professioÌ„ but also by the testimonie of the spirit of God who by manifold graces powred vpon theÌ„ euen vnto an apparant sanctification of nombers of theÌ„ do beare them witnes that they be members of the body of christ who as the head hath partaked vnto them his holy spirite thâ—y that haue perfourmed vnto them the speciall couenant which the Lorde hath made with his churches of powring his spirit vpoÌ„ theÌ„ putting his words in their mouthes are the churches of God but such are the assemblies in England as touching the spirit of God it hath bin said before whereupon also it followeth that he hath likewise put his word in their mouthes considering that the spirit of God is not giueÌ„ but by the word seing that the Lord in mercy hath set vp diuers burning lamps in those assemblies whereby light is conueyed more or lesse into all the parts almost of that land it seemeth that the church of England should receiue iniury if it should not be accounted among the golden candlesticks which seeme to keepe out darknes might from the Lords sanctuary vntill such time as the day starre spring Lucifer do rise in our hearts If you say all do not beleeue the gospel truely which professe it the same exceptioÌ„ lyeth against all other churches how reformed soeuer if that there be fewer faithfull in our churches then in others the trueth of the chnrch standeth not in the nomber for if there were but in euery church one truely and vndissemblingly faithfull al the rest holding the faith of our Lord Iesus christ in wordes onely yet shoulde all those churches be vnto vs the churches of God and if you say the assemblyes as it were all the branches or armes of the candlesticke haue not lightes set vpon them the greater nomber of them being dumped with dumbe ministerie notwithstanding by the way you confesse those assemblyes vpon whome the Lorde hath set the lampe of a preaching ministery are the churches of God whiche seemeth to cast downe that hill which standeth in the waye against our reioysing wherebye you can not afoorde vs the Name of gods churches because we haue not the discipline by him appointed nowe for the other whether they haue some glimpse of knowledge by the dumbe ministerie or no may afterwardes in another place be considered for the present I answere that euen in those congregatioÌ„s forasmuch as they both haue and might haue by some former ministrie or means which the Lord hath vsed towards theÌ„ receiued faith standing therby in our sauiour christ as in the shaft of a candlesticke they cease not to be a branch in the Lords candlesticke and being members of the same body they may well receiue some supply of their want from the light that shineth in the next branch vnto them for if euery assembly being without a lampe of the ministry shuld by by be holden to be broken from the shaft of the church candlesticke then at euery vacation of the ministry and whensoeuer by death the Lorde shoulde put out one of his lightes it shoulde followe that that assembly by the fall of their minister into the graue shoulde from the hyest heauen fall into the graue of hell but you will say peradventure that an assembly that hath a dumbe minister is in worse case then that which hath none at all if that be graunted yet followeth it not therefore that the assembly which yesterday being without a duÌ„be minister was the church of God shoulde to day by hauing such a one set ouer them be the Synagogue of Satan and here me thinkes whilest you go about to make nothing of the dumbe ministrie you ascribe more force to it then it hath for you make him not so much as a guide or an head of the church in that those which before in all equall iudgement were to be deemed members of Christ by hearing them shoulde suddenly become the members of antichrist I do not therefore yeeld vnto you in that you saye they are the chiefe alwayes in the synagogues our Sauiour Christ in whome those companies do beleeue being the chiefe with whome through faith they growe to be one body which rather then by hearing the dumbe minister to bee one with him say therefore that it is a fault in them to heare such a minister thrust vpon them yet that it is an apostacie from God and an vtter falling away from the Gospell I see not with what great apparance of trueth it can be spoken Moyses when diuers of the people claue vnto Korah Datham and Abiram forsaking willingly the lawfull and ordinary ministry of the Aronites did not therefore cast them forth from the Lordes hoste and should the churches of God for hearing a dumbe minister which is thrust vpon them forthwith be reputed for runnagates from the Lorde Againe the Lorde is in couenaunt with that people to whome he gieueth the seales of his couenant this he doth to our assemblies in England therefore they are the Lordes confederates Yf you say that the seales set to by the dumb ministery are no seales which afterwarde commeth to be examined yet you thereby confesse that those which are ministred by sufficient ministers are the true and vncounterfaite sacramentes of the church whereby it falleth againe that you seeme to hold that the churches in England are not true churches of Christ because they haue not his commaunded discipline Hereunto may be added the iudgment of all the churches of Christ in Europe all which gieue the right hande of societie in the house of God vnto the assemblies which are in England Which argument of the churches authoritie albeit it be not so strong as it will enforce yet ought it to staye all sodayne and hasty iudgments vnto the contrary and so long to cause silence vntill the cause be rightly on both sides debated and the contrary of that which the churches holde doe through the lightnesse sonne of the trueth thereof breake foorth and if it be meete to proceede softly and as it were with a leaden foote to the excommunication of one onely member of the Church of God there ought verily to haue bin great consultation taken when the Churches of two whole Ilandes shoulde haue bene cast out especially when they be holden in by voyces not of diuers persons but of all the churches to whome the knowledge of their estate hath come And if there were but one man worthie to be excommunicate yet if the greater parte of your assembly woulde not yeelde consente thereunto I holde it that the order of the discipline requireth that the rest are to beare the person whome they can
not remooue And therefore although the assemblyes of Englande had deserued thorough want of discipline and of a teaching ministerie to bee cast out from the accompt of the churches of God yet being holden in by the most voyces of the Churches them selues they ought to haue bene so farre borne withall as the communicating with them shoulde not make them guiltie of a falling away from the Lorde Nowe I come to those two reasons whereby you thinke you maye iustly holde the assemblies in Englande for no churches of God And first of all to the reason of the discipline for the want wherof you giue them all without exception the blackestone of condemnation from being the churches of christ where it is to be vnderstoode that as in a man there are certaine partes essentiall and such as without which the man can not stande and other some seruing either to his comelinesse or to his long continuance so it is in this matter there is the foundation christ whereupon it is necessary that by faâ—th the assemblies be laide which groweth vnto the Lordes building without the which it can not bee his church which thing being whatsoeuer is either wanting of that which is commaunded or remaining of that which is forbidden is not able to put that assembly which by faith is layde vpon Christ from the right and title of being the churche of Christ for faith can admit of no such thing which giueth an vtter ouerthrowe and turning vpside downe of the trueth By this title of the faithfull the Apostle in his epistles noteth out the Churches of God it being all one with him to say to the faithfull or to the Saintes as to the Churches of such a place whatsoeuer wanteth vnto this or is more then ynough it wanteth or aboundeth to the disgrace and vncomelinesse or to the hassarde of the continuance and not to the present ouerthrowe of the churche and although besides faith in the Sonne of GOD there may be many thinges necessary for euery assembly yet be they necessary to the comely and stable being and not simplye to the being of the churche hereupon the people of Israel which neglected for the space of fourtie nine yeeres the holy Sacrament of circumcision and the Passeouer also as it seemeth one onely time excepted seased not therefore to be the churches of God and to haue the Sanctuarie amongest them And in this respectes the Dutch assemblyes whereof the greatest parte in high Germany which besides the same Name of discipline which is common to our churches are grossely deceiued in the matter of the Supper are notwithstanding holden in the roule of the churches of god In this respecte also certaine assemblyes of our profession which hauing the vse of the discipline permitted vnto them are not suffered to haue the vse of the Sacramentes of the Lordes Supper are no therefore when the Lordes churches are mustered and their Names written and enrouled vp cast out as vnfit to remaine in any accompt of the Lordes hoste without anye parte of that order and discipline which the Lorde hath appointed I graunt there can be no churche of christ for that without some parte of it there can be no faith in Iesus christ it is a piece of that discipline of our Sauiour christ that there shoulde be certaine which shoulde be chosen out of the rest to preache the gospell by preaching whereof the churches are gathered Where therefore there is no ministerie of the worde there it is playne that there are no visible and apparant churches it is another parte of the discipline of our Lorde that the rest of the body of the churche shoulde obey those that are set ouer them in the Lord. Wheresoeuer therefore there is no obedience of the people giuen to the ministers that in the Lordes name preach vnto them there also can be no churche of christ but where these two be although other pointes wante yea although there be some defect in these that neither the ministers doe in all pointes preach as they ought nor the assemblyes in all pointes obey vnto the wholesome doctrine of their teachers yet doe they for the reason abouesaide retaine the right of the churches of god This may be made by plaine similitude from the body of man whereunto we are alreadie entred for if any man shuld haue both his hands his armes cut off his eyes put out c. yet as loÌ„g as the head standeth and other vitall parts he is to be accompted a man although a maymed man euen so it is in the assemblie as long as it holdeth the head how defectiue it is otherwise yet it hath the due and right of the church of god and although a man shoulde haue sixe fingers on one hande and but three one another albeit they shoulde stande where the mouth doeth yet all this deformitie should not hinder from being truely holden to be a maÌ„ although it would be great deformitie in him on the other parte if he had no head at all or that there were no naturall coniunction of the partes one with another but a whole and through displacing of euery parte from his proper state then verely coulde he not be deemed to haue either the proportion of a man or his life so likewise if an assembly either holde not the head which is Christ Iesu or be nothing els but a confused multitude without any parte of that order which the sonne of God hath appointed the same is iustly crossed out of the accompte of Gods churche was not Ierusalem after the returne from Babylon the citie of the great King vntill snche time as Nehemias came and builded vp the walles of the citie to say therefore it is none of the Church of god because it hath not receiued this discipline me thinkes is all one with this as if a man woulde say it is no citie because it hath no wall or that it is no vineyarde because it hath neither hedge nor dyke It is not I grant so sightly a citie or vineyarde nor yet so safe against the inuasion of their seuerall enemies which lye in waite for them but yet are they truely both cities and vineyardes There remaineth the other point which is against those assemblies onely which haue a dumbe ministerie wherein that parte of your conclusion that the assemblies where they be are none of the Churches of god is before answered There resteth that part of your conclusion whereby you inferre that the Sacramentes ministred by them are none of gods Sacramentes and therefore that a man may not receiue anye of them at their handes here first I agree with you that their ministerie is vnlawful and to them selues without repentance a certain matter of destruction especially in those vnto whome the knowledge of this corruption is come to the churches where they be presently hurtefull and in the ende without remedie deadly but that they are no ministers of god so far as to receiue the
of the Lord First Moses commaunded the congregation the Lord so bade him to depart from the tents of those wicked men and touch nothing of theirs lest they perished in their sins was not this a putting apart or a casting out Againe by the word of the Lord in the mouth of Moses the earth opened her mouth and swallowed theÌ„ vp quicke For assoone as he had ended his words saith the text euen the grounde claue asunder that was vnder them was not this also a putting apart or a casting out The next day also fourteene thousand and seuen hundreth dyed by a plague for cleauing still to Corah by an aftermurmuring was not this a putting apart And these iudgements were both an ensample and a figure of the spirituall iudging at this day both by excommunication by rebuke and denouncing iudgement For otherwise to what purpose is it said in the reuelation that the witnesses at this day meaning euery faithful preacher are as oliue trees and golden candlesticks standing before the god of the earth and that fire proceedeth out of their mouthes and deuoureth their enemies and that they haue power to shut heauen and power ouer waters to turne them into blood and to smite the earth with all maner plagues as often as they will If he say that Corah and his company were not forthwith cast out though it be euident that forthwith they did cast out themselues he should know that there must be a time to examine their cause yet in that short time they had of examining being but a day for the next day they perished We read that Dathan Abiram would not come to be examined and so of them selues they were put apart As for Corah and his company two hundreth fiftie where as they tooke censers came before the Lord in the doore of the tabernacle they did it as vsurpers and both in the very acte doing were separate by fire to destruction and before the act Moses is so farre from ioyning with them or from allowing or tollerating their act that he prayeth against it saying Lord looke not vnto their offring Likewise that the people ioyned not with them in their censing it is euident for euen while they were burning incense or before the coÌ„mandement was giuen which they obeâ—ed that they should get them away from about the tabernacle of Corah DothaÌ„ Abiram and touch nothing of theirs Now if any will take vantage that yet their ceÌ„sers were holy as the text saith because they offred them before the Lord so will impute some holines to the ministery of dumbe ministers let vs coÌ„sider what holines this was First their action was altogether vnholy none might or did ioyne with them therein And therâ—fore the censers were consecrate as a signe remeÌ„braÌ„ce saith the text that no stranger which is not of the seed of Aaron come nere to offer incense before the Lord that he be not like Corah his coÌ„panie Wherfore those censers were holy because they were made a holy signe of iudgement for warning to all posterities not to do the like wherefore I would say there were holines in the dumbe ministery if all the dumbe ministers were hanged vp in the Churches and publike assemblies for a warning terrour to the rest that are readie to enter such a function Then indeede they were a holy signe remeÌ„brance of iudgmeÌ„t against such wretches but other holines haue they none in theÌ„ Yet M. C. dare say that their ministration of SacrameÌ„ts reading of praiers is holy sanctified yea so farre sanctified that we may lawfully receiue the Sacraments of them ioyne with theÌ„ in praiers Belike because Moses commanded Corah his coÌ„pany to come with their censers therfore those also must come with their seruice books But did Moses cal theÌ„ for any other purpose saue only to destroy theÌ„ Did he meane as M C. doeth to ioyne with them to tollerate their ministerie to excuse their vsurping to pronouÌ„ce a blessing on their ministery For indeed it is blessed if it be as he saith that we may lawfully receiue the Sacraments of them Did not Moses say plainely To morrowe the Lorde will shewe who is his and who is holy and who ought to approche neere vnto him meaning that by his terrible iudgement he woulde shewe that they were none of his and that there was no holinesse in their action of comming neere to the Lorde Surely therefore this holinesse which M. Cartwright imputeth to the dumbe ministers and their assemblies is like the holinesse whereof Corah spake together with his companie saying That all the congregation was holy euerie one of them and the Lorde was among them An other proofe Master Cartwright taketh by the seales of the couenant that is the Sacraments They haue the Sacraments saith he as seales of the couenant therefore they are within the couenant and so are the Churches of god Here the question falleth out whether the sacraments are false sacraments and counterset seales of the couenant He saith it is graunted him that they are true and vncounterfaite sacraments being ministred by sufficient ministers for sayeth he if we condemne the seales set to by dumbe ministers then we must needes iustifie the Sacraments ministred by sufficient ministers So by his iffs and supposings he will gather against vs what proofes he list But though they be preaching ministers yet are they not sufficient ministers as we shewed before For if they goe out of the way as it is written and cause many to dash and fall by the lawe they are not sufficient ministers but they breake the couenant of Leui and the Lorde will make them despised and vile before the people because they keepe not his wayes If they be neuer so famous in preaching yet if they be worldly minded men and whose bellies are their gods and glorie to their shame they are not sufficient ministers But why did M. C. so subtlely set contrary to dumbe ministers sufficient ministers not rather preaching ministers For the question is of false professors and of a false profession and therefore also of preachers which hold a false profession together with their assemblies now such we say are not sufficient for they are not such as Paul appointeth in his epistles to Timothie and Titus So herein we see howe Master Cartwright misseth of his proofe and in missing doeth take a further foyle for he reasoneth that if the Sacraments doe prooue a Church then though they haue not the discipline commanded by Christ yet they are the Church But howe doeth this followe belike he thinketh that the Sacraments may be seuered from discipline yea and the Church also and yet be an outwarde and visible Church of God Howe true this is it followeth afterwarde to be examined First let vs stande on his proofe that he taketh by the iudgement of other Churches in Europe all which saith he
giueth the right hande of societie vnto our English assemblyes which proofe he confesseth not to be so strong yet strong ynough to stay all sudden iudgements and so long to cause silence til on eyther side the light of the trueth doe breake foorth I will not heare enter into that question whether the Churches haue power to sit in mens consciences and to shut vp mens mouthes from testifying their iudgements and consciences for in some matters Master Cartwright doeth giue them that power namely for their verdite and sentence which be true Churches of God What vantage the Pope and Papistes might take hereby for defence of their churches it may be easily iudged and what a clog to mens consciences it were to iustifie and ioyne with all assemblies till all the churches by generall consent did condemne them let euery one iudge But surely Paul witnesseth that the spirit of God in his children searcheth out all things euen the deepe things of God yea it iudgeth and knoweth all things that are of God And againe he saith that he which is spirituall discerneth all thinges yet he himselfe is iudged of no man meaning that indeede worldly men can not rightly iudge of him wherefore the godly may freely both iudge and giue their iudgement euen of all assemblies which they knowe whether they be the true Churches of God And in another place he coÌ„mandeth not onely to minde iudge think on all things that are true and honest and iust and pure but also to doe them Wherefore as we ought to loue the godly and their assemblyes so our loue as Paul teacheth vs ought to abounde more and more in knowledge and in all iudgement that wee may discerne thinges that differ especially that wee may knowe the house of God from a denne of thieues But herein Master Cartwright doeth much abuse vs and also all the Churches of Europe For neither we doe cast out the churches of two whole Ilandes as he saith neither doe they holde them all in For though the fame of the Martyrs of Englande came to their eares and also their doctrine profession at that time as they theÌ„selues wrote it or testified it by mouth was knowen vnto them and then in the time of affliction they tooke them for brethren and churches yet it followeth not that nowe in our securitie they heare of our canon lawes and popish gouernment of our wofull abuses thereby or if they doe heare that notwithstanding they doe hastily iustifie vs. In deede they can not rashly condemne vs because they knowe not our state and rather they should take our assemblies to be the churches of God for the fame they haue sometimes heard of the Martyrs But that we which throughly knowe them should not iudge truely and doe accordingly it is both against reason and duetie For as euery plaâ—nt whiâ—h the heauenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted vp saith Christ so in the next verse he sheweth the way to roote them vp namely that we put away from vs their guiding and gouerning being blinde guides and leaders of the blinde and let them alone And so with Ieremie we shall plucke vp and roote out destroy and throw downe euen kingdomes and nations that is as we saide before wee shall pronounce their wickednesse and iudgement against them and forsake their fellowshippe and so leauing them to the iudgements of God they shall surely be plucked vp and destroyed except they repent Wherefore let not Master Cartwright thinke much if God doe set one man euen against a whole countrey For Ieremie in as good times as ours are was set against the whole lande against the Kinges of Iudah and against the princes thereof against the priestes thereof and against the people of the lande And in another place he woulde vtterly leaue the people and goe from them and dwell alone in the wildernesse And so well did he like their assemblyes that he calleth them all adulterers and an assemblie of rebels And in another place he is forbidden to haue any fellowshippe with them whether pleasant or vnpleasant so that he might neither mourne with them neither reioyce neither eate nor drinke with them And if it bee said that Ieremie had a speciall commaundement which we haue not we knowe that all the commaundements of God vpon the like occasions belong vnto vs. And concerning authoritie and power wee prooued before that the least in the kingdome of God hath it equall with Ieremie or any of the Prophetes Hereby is that also aunswered which Master Cartwright inferreth that if one man bee founde worthie of excommunication the smaller part of an assembly is not to proceede against him if the greater part will not What doctrine is this and what one worde of God doth he name for profe of this diuers other such â—ike For though Kings nations all the would wuold take any knowen wretched liuer to be a brother and communicate with him yet neitheÌ„r the smaller part of an assembly neyther I alone ought to do it For there is a flat law set downe by the Lorde Thou shalt not followe a multitude to doe euill neyther agree in a controuersie to decline after many and ouerthrowe the trueth But Master Cartwright will saye that this Lawe was giuen for wittnessing the trueth in publique iudgement and not that euery one shoulde take vpon him to excommunicate We knowe that the common wealth of Israel and their ciuill iudgement did figure out the Lordes Spirituall iudgement in his Church and therefore it is sayde of Saint Paul that wee are nowe no more aliauntes from the common wealth of Israel which wordes doe shewe that their Common wealth did figure out our spirituall fellowshippe But whether it did or no the lawe is generally giuen both for ciuill iudgement and for all dealings in controuersie that wee ought to giue true iudgement and testimonie and not to keepe backe iudgement or peruert the trueth for any mans cause yet we say not that euery one may excommunicate alone For we ought to tell the Church saith Christ and so we should haue the church to ioyne with vs in that action And Paul sheweth that his spirit theirs being met together was ioyned as in one for excommunicating the incestuous person but what if the rest of the church will not ioyne with vs therein Surely then as we prooued before we must set our selues against them all we must not be afraid of their faces as the Lorde commandeth lest he destroy vs before them For they all that knowing Achans sinne refuse being warned to cut him off are guiltie with him in his sinne or if they touch or come neere the tents of Corah Dathan and Abiram they shall perish with them or being in a citie that is fallen away to Idolatrie if they flee not out of it or set not them selues against it they shall be destroyed