A DEFENCE OF THE ECCLESIASTICAL Discipline ordayned of God to be vsed in his Church Against a Replie of Maister Bridges to a briefe and plain Declaration of it which was printed An. 1584. Which replie he termeth A Defence of the gouernement established in the Church of Englande for Ecclesiasticall matters IOB 31.35.36.37 ⧠The booke that myne aduersarie shall write against me I will beare it vpon my shoulder yea I will weare it as a crowne vpon me I will tell him the number of my steppes and as one of authoritie I will goe vnto him 1. TIM 6.13.14.15.16 ¶ I charge thee in the sight of God who quickeneth all things and before Iesus Christ which vnder Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession that thou keepe these commaundements without spot and vnrebukeable vntill the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. Which in due time he shall shewe that is blessed and Prince onely the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Who only hath immortalitie dwelleth in the light that none can attaine vnto whom neuer man sawe neither can see vnto whom be honour and power euerlasting Amen 1588. ¶ Vnto the Christian Reader THERE was written gentle Reader manie yeares agoe a short declaration of the right and onely lawfull Discipline which our Sauior Christ hath ordayned for the guiding of his Church Which declaration being not published at the time it was prepared for hath come since into the handes of some who considering the Treatise to be modestlie and learnedlie written and discerning a fitte time and occasion for the purpose caused it in the yeare 84. to be printed Since which time it hath bin read and considered of by many but either because the trueth of it seemed cleare or because the doctrine conteyned in it was generall without particuler application to the state of our Church or for some other like respect as I suppose it hath had quiet and free passage hitherto without anie replication made vnto it Nowe commeth out one after so many yeares belike hauing thoroughlie in all the time studied the matter who replieth to this declaration and vndertaketh to shewe that there is no such Discipline appointed by our Sauior Christ as is there declared to be ordayned by his authoritie This Treatise the Author calleth A defence of the gouernement established in the Church of Englande for ecclesiasticall matters Which tytle whether he were mooued to giue his booke as most plausible or as most profitable hoping peraduenture for no small recompence of such a seruice as he taketh vpon him to performe or what other reason soeuer it were because I could not discerne anie sufficient reason for it the booke he would confute declaring onely a generall doctrine for all Churches and dealing litle more with this Church then anie other much lesse impugning it that it should neede his defence I haue thought good rather to call his booke A replie to the Declaration as it is in deede and as the nature of the writing requireth he should haue called it then to keepe the name whiche hee hath giuen it The declaration he hath diuided into manie small pieces and sections and so setteth it downe all before him wherin he seemeth to vndertake to proue that there is not a worde in that godlie learned Treatise which hee will not shewe to be reproueable which howe he performeth and what honor he is to carie out of this fielde wherein he is entred with great triumphe I leaue to the Christian Reader by this answere to consider His first section because nothing should escape him is vppon these wordes set after the preface and before the first sentence of the booke vpon the toppe of euerie leafe A learned discourse of ecclesiasticall gouernement This Title both here and thoroughout the Replie is much iested at and played withall For answere wherevnto the Reader is to vnderstande the right title of the booke set downe in the first page thereof is A briefe plain declaration c. The other is of like the Printers or some others to whose hande the copie might come a thing vsuallie done and without anie iust note of ostentation in the Author who is seldome or neuer priuie to such additions But let vs leaue the Title and passe on to the Booke A defence of the ecclesiasticall Discipline ordained of God to be vsed in his Church Against a Replie of Maister Bridges to a briefe and plaine Declaration of it whiche was printed An̄ 1584. c. THE Writer of the Declaration purposing to shewe by the holy Scriptures what Discipline and order for administration of the Church Almightie GOD who is onely wise hath appointed thought meete to laye first such a foundation of all his Worke as being sure and immoueable might be able to beare that he should buylde vpon it This foundation cōsisteth of these three sentences the first That the Church is the house of God The seconde risinge of the former that therefore it ought to be directed in all things according to the order which God the housholder hath prescribed The thirde That the order prescribed by God for the guyding of the same is not to bee learned elsewhere but in Gods most holy worde For proofe of all these it is immediatlie adioyned that the first is conteyned in the first Epistle to Tim. cap. 3. The seconde necessarilie followeth of the firste 1. Tim. 3. The thirde is proued by the 2. Epist Tim. 3.16.17 2. Tim. 3.17 This is the foundation which the Writer thought good to lay of all his Treatise to the ende that what soeuer he should after shewe out of the worde of God to be appointed by him for the good direction and guydance of his Church might be receyued of the Church of God as the ordinance of the housholder wherevnto all the housholde ought to be obedient The Replyer in like maner knowing that if he could shake the foundation the rest of the buylding must needes fall downe beginneth to proue his strength in shakinge of this grounde-worke whiche standing vppon three sentences as hath bin shewed he beginneth with viewing of the firste of these which being strong and immoueable he passeth by it and leaueth it as sure as he founde it confessing it to be trewe in deede that the Church is the house of the liuing God and saying for him selfe and such as he dealeth for we most gladlie admitte this as the very worde of the holy Ghost This being graunted the next point were nowe to bee considered but that I thinke it needefull the Reader be admonished of a point or two sett downe by the Replier in his answere to this first sentence vpon occasion of the Text alleadged to proue that the Church is the house of God he addeth these wordes following in the same place that the Church is the pillar and grounde of trueth which is so sayeth he in this matter of Ecclesiasticall gouernement and in all other so farre as is necessarie to saluation
Wherevpon he gathereth that either the Discipline declared in the booke which he laboureth to confute is not necessarie or else that the Church at least in some ages and places as a pillar of trueth hath vpholden and mainteyned it or striuen for it which he alleadgeth impertinentlie altogither to the especiall matter he was to intreate of yet agreeing with his generall purpose to laye in all places some stone of offence which may hinder the Reader to receyue the right and onely lawfull Discipline of the Church in such sort as by the word of God appertayneth In the former point whereof it is to be obserued that the Replyer graunteth the matter of Ecclesiasticall gouernement in some part thereof as well as other matters of doctrine to be necessarie to saluation which is worthie to bee obserued here because some other impugners of the holy Discipline and order appointed of God for the guydance of his Church make it no matter of such importance wherevpon it must needes followe by his owne rule that the Church at least in such pointes of it hath kept and ought to mainteyne the trew and right Discipline of the Church Furthermore for clearing of another point which he implyeth by his wordes that is that there is some trueth of God in matters of Ecclesiasticall Discipline and in other pointes of doctrine which are not necessarie to saluation and therefore not mainteyned by the Church it is to be vnderstoode that in some sense of necessarie in their place and degree all trueth both in the matter of Ecclesiasticall gouernement and also in all other Articles of Christian Religion is necessarie to saluation True it is that some pointes are so necessarie as that in the ordinarie dispensation of God no man can be saued without such meanes of whiche sorte also there are some euen in the Discipline of the Church as is the ministerie of the Gospell by such as are sent of GOD therevnto and such like There are othet whiche are not so simplie absolutelie and immediatlie necessarie but yet necessarie as meanes ordayned of God for the better furtherance of our saluation both in their owne vse and in the helpe they yeelde to make the other degree of meanes more fitte to doe vs good and more seruiceable and effectuall when they are duely prepared therevnto For example hereof to beleeue the promises of the Gospell in the ordinarie dispensation of God is simplie and absolutely necessarie to saluation and because there can be no faith of it except it be declared to men by such as are sent of God for that purpose this meanes is also alike necessarie Now for the better furtherāce of mens saluatiō hereby God hath apointed that there should be Pastors of it and Doctors in the Church for the ordinarie work of the ministerie of the Gospell He hath also declared howe suche Preachers ought to be qualified and in what manner they are to preache He hath appointed also his holy Sacramentes to be administred censures and corrections of offences to bee vsed with many other such like ordinances Which notwithstanding they be not all necessarie in the same degree that the former meanes are yet are they necessarie to prepare the same that they may be the fitter to doe vs good So the preachinge of the Gospell is the fitter to profite vs when it is preached as by the orders appointed of God it ought to be that is soundlie and sincerily without mixture of fables and phansies of men when it is preached by men of pitie and learning in the Scriptures that are able to teache to conuince to exhort and applie it in euery sort as it ought to be applyed And because God giueth not such men to his Church extraordinarilie the meanes whereby God hath prouided for the furnishing of the Church with such as their due ordination election examination and such like are in their degree also necessarie Whereof it were to be wished that wee had not so euident and certaine proofe as we haue in the daunger of so many amongest vs as are hazarded for want of sufficient Ministers of the Gospell and the necessarie meanes by the ordinance of GOD to haue such as may be worthie to beare the name of Christ before his people The same may be saide of the due execution of the censures of the Church Whiche howe necessarie it is in his place degree for the bringing of the obstinate sinner to the knowledge of his faulte and to repentance seeking by faith for pardō in Christ Iesus to saluation I thinke by former examples and daily experience of such as haue bin recouered by that meanes and of other that haue died in their sinnes for want of the same may easilie be discerned Besides these respectes they are also necessarie in regarde of Gods holie ordinance and appointement the contemptuous breache of whose commaundementes be they great or little in our account is damnable to all those that doe despise them Thus much may suffise to cleare these wordes of the Replyer so farre as is necessarie to saluation Vpon this glose he gathereth that the Discipline declared in the booke he would confute eyther is not necessarie or else at least in some ages and places hath bin mainteyned and kept or striuen for to bee established I answere that in such sense of necessarie as I haue mentioned it so to be the Discipline sett downe in the declaration is necessarie to saluation and further that it hath bin mainteyned in sundrie times and places and is at this day exercised and laboured for in the middest of the Church In the Apostles times and those which followed next after them it was exercised and mainteyned in all the places where the Apostles settled established any Churches as appeareth by their owne exercises and the storie of their Actes as it is alleadged in the Declaration and sundrie other bookes of like argument After that time it began in deede to decline in some partes as did other pointes of the Gospell But notable euidences are to be shewed of sundrie partes thereof in the writings of the auncient Fathers exercising some partes of it and lamenting the decay of some other In this age it is not vnknowen to be receyued mainteyned exercised in all the Churches of France of the lowe Countries and of Scotland for many yeares togither In this Church it hath bin laboured for nowe many yeares of the Ministerie by writing and preaching and by petitions offred to the Conuocation house of some of the commons in Parliament nowe three sundrie times by such meanes as to that high Court appertayneth by manie of all degrees and callings by most humble supplications to almightie God and all authoritie whiche he hath sett ouer vs and by sundrie other christian dueties and is not to be giuen ouer till God may heare vs and the righteousnes of Syon may come forth as the light of the day and hir saluation shine like a burning
Ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes to be necessarie for them Mat. 7.6 Mat. 16. Actes 1.8 and that therefore it was needefull the Lorde should leaue a certaine order for the directing of his Church in that administration and ministerie Which also because it was so needefull the holy Scriptures declare him to haue done Mat. 28.19 For touching the worde what should bee preached and by whom and vnto whom with all other necessarie circumstances euen in outwarde things he gaue certaine order vnto his Disciples Likewise for Baptisme both before his death Matt. 18 2◠and at his ascension into heauen he instructed them in what outwarde maner they were to administer it and vnto what persons Of the Lords supper the Apostle sayeth That whiche I receyued of the Lorde I haue deliuered vnto you plainly declaring that the Lorde had deliuered vnto him a certayne order for the outwarde administration of his Supper These things and the like which might be saide of the other pointes of the outwarde Discipline of the Church the Replyer against it did not well consider in making no externall forme of gouernement necessarie but perseuerance in fayth and hope Nay it may seeme hee did not well remember that in other places the necessitie of continuing the present gouernement of BB. and Archbishops Priestes and Deacons such as wee haue amongst vs is affirmed to haue ground and cōtinuance from the very Apostles who also are sayde to haue made Timothy and Titus such For which cause also at the ordination of euerie of them certayne places of the Scripture are appointed to be read as cōteyning their Institution and ordinance in the Church But howe truelie and faithfullie such places are alleadged for that purpose there are but fewe but vpon the reading of those textes of Scripture may discerne Yet howsoeuer they fayle in their proofe that seeke the confirmation of the Hierarchie so commonly called this appeareth by their owne allegations that sometimes and in parte they would perswade men that there is an externall forme of administratiō of the Church appointed by our Sauior Christ Which would to God they did not onely sometimes and in parte but alwayes and altogither perswade them selues and others as the trueth is in deede that God hath set downe in his holy worde a certayne forme of gouerning the Church of Christ necessarie and perpetuall by particular directions in all the chiefe and principall pointes and by generall rules for time place and such like circumstances and that they would rather labour with vs to shewe what the same is by the worde of God then to striue for the contrarie that there is no certaine forme at all The proofe of this point that there is a certayne and perpetuall order set downe in the word of God for the guyding of the Church in ecclesiasticall matters hath bin often made by diuers who haue trauayled in this cause as appeareth in their bookes But because the Replyer denieth it to haue bene proued yet it shall not bee amisse to laye downe brieflie such reasons in this place as may serue for that purpose From the beginning of the world there hath bin ordayned of God a certayne externall forme for directing the Church such as seemed good to his heauenlie wisedome and agreed best with that time for which it serued both before and vnder the Lawe euen from Adam to Christ Whiche for suche time was not to be altered by anie liuing creature Therefore there is also some certayne forme of administring the church of God from the time of our Sauiour Christe to the ende of the worlde which is not alterable nor to be chaunged by anie power of man For God being as able and as willing to doe this good vnto his Church in these last dayes as in anie time before and there being no sufficient reason to be rendred of such difference why those times should be so regarded and this not it must needes be that there is a certayne forme sett downe in the worde of God for the outwarde administration of the Church Againe the externall administration of the church vnder the Law was such as had proceeded from God and was not altered nor to be altered by any King or Priest whatsoeuer For the first plat was giuen in the mount what alteration after was made by Dauid or others was not of them selues 2. Chro. 8. and 25.26 2. Chr. 29.25 but by speciall and particular direction of God by the Prophetes Therefore if no iust reason of difference be to bee shewed to the contrarie as there is not it must be confessed that God hath ordayned a certayne externall forme of gouuernement for the Church in this time and not left it to the arbitrarie direction and lawes of any men whatsoeuer Further where there is a Ministerie and dispensation of holy things ordayned there must needes bee an order sett downe for the deliuering and disposinge of them Otherwise they must of necessitie be exposed to certayne prophanation therfore such ordinances accompanie such administrations and haue both their beginning and ending with them So in the Lawe the Priesthoode being appointed for the ministerie of things that were holy there was withall a lawe of ordinances giuen for certayne direction of their office whiche lawe also ceased and was abolished when the Priesthoode was translated and taken away from the house of Leui as wee are taught in the example of the Hebrewes In like maner Hebr. 7.12 seeing that in the Church of Christ since the abrogatinge of the Priesthoode of the Lawe there is instituted a ministerie of holy things and officers for the purpose it must needes bee that there is also a certaine order set down for the guiding of them in the execution of their Ministerie Which is the whole Discipline consisting onely in the execution of such dueties as they are to performe which are called to beare any charge in the Church of God as the regiment of euery cōmon wealth standeth in the offices and dueties of the Magistrates those that haue authoritie in it Moreouer the Names of Christ and his Church the peace order edification and perpetuitie of the church doe proue that there is a certain externall forme of administring it For if Christ be a King a High Priest an Housholder and the Church his Kingdome his Temple and his House then must it needes be that he hath giuen though spirituall in regarde of the ende they haue as his kingdome is spirituall yet some certayne externall meanes constitutions and orders for the good gouerning and guyding of the same For this is incident to euery wyse man of authoritie especiallie when he him selfe shall not personallie remayne amongst those that belong vnto him And so our Sauiour noteth his purpose to doe Mat. 25. Luke 19.12 Lu. 12.42.43 in the parable of the Talentes deliuered to diuers seruantes and of the Steward left with charge of the house till his comming The same is to
receyue our information herein so farre as we shal be able to make good proofe by the holy worde of God cōcerning his ordinance in these matters I doubt not then but the certayne trueth of the pointes sett downe in the declaration would appeare vnto them to the great honour of God and vnspeakeable ioy and comfort of all the Church amongst vs. Nowe followeth the third and last sentence of those which are set downe for the foundation of all the Discipline This sentence is that the order which God hath prescribed for the directing of his church is not to be learned els-where then in the holy worde of God For proofe whereof is alleadged 2. Tim. 3. vers 16.17 This trueth the Replyer if hee agree with him selfe in like maner yeeldeth vnto with this condition if it be vnderstoode that all generall or particular orders in the externall gouernement of the church are either expreslie specified in Gods holy worde or inclusiuelie comprehended in it This is the substance of his Replie to this point wherein he is to knowe that it is not otherwise meant but that eyther by playne euidence or necessarie consequence they are to bee shewed to haue their ground in the worde of God for the substance therfore of this point we are agreed In this place without all maner of occasion offred him he falleth into the mention of a booke which he termeth our communion booke and sayth to be intituled The forme of common prayers administration of the Sacramentes c. agreeable to Gods worde and the vse of the reformed Churches Such a booke in deede bearing that tytle there hath bin much speach of it is saide as it had bin twise before so this last Parliament nowe the thirde time to haue bin presented to that high and Honorable Court Wherof because the speaches were diuers many haue bin in doubt what they should iudge of it Therefore I doubt not but that one no better affected to it then he is and sheweth him selfe to be both in calling it our communion booke meaning as it seemeth that it was reuisited and considered by sundrie faythfull Ministers of the Gospell and by their meanes procured to be presented in Parliament and in his readines to finde faulte with it without cause but he hath obserued some notable matter in it that may stay the vncertayne and doubtfull opinions of many concerning it and may certifie them vpon good and sufficient grounde of iust cause to disallowe it The matter which he noteth in it is that in the title of it it is sayd to be agreeable to the worde of God and the vse of the reformed churches And this is all that he noteth in it whereby it may seeme to be a holy booke and worthie to bee written in letters of golde if it bee such a one as so ill an eye lookinge into it could finde nothing reproueable in it but this that it is agreeable to Gods worde and the vse of the best reformed Churches He might easilie finde as great a stayne as this is in the most orient pearle that euer came frō the Indies Such a pearle was in deede worthie to bee set in the Diademe of a Prince and meete to be presented to so noble a State as is the State of that honourable assemblie If there were a Gentleman in all the lande fearing God in trueth with singlenes and sinceritie of harte wise without cunning and deceytfull practises zealous of the honor and seruice of God louing his Coūtrey with most tender affection constant in the trueth with a christian magnanimitie such a man surelie were a personage qualified for such a purpose as to make tender to the States of a lande of such a booke as is agreable to Gods word and the vse of the best reformed Churches If amongest all the Gentlemen of a Countrey there were two graced of God with rare and excellent giftes of true pitie and zeale of knowledge and vnderstanding in other good learning and especiallie in the heauenlie knowledge of diuinitie and in it particularlie of the Discipline and spiritual pollicie of the church and of so gracious speach vtterance that the hearers might after truelie report and saye of them Wee sawe them as men that looked into the glorie of God and had bin chaunged into the similitude and likenes of the Lordes owne glorie wee heard them as they that seemed to vs to speake not with the tongues of men but of Aungelles for howe did our hartes burne within vs when we hearde them so zealouslie mightilie pleade on the behalf of God and perswade the receyuing of a booke that had all things in it agreeable to Gods worde and the vse of the best reformed churches surelie such men were fitt aduocates to speake in a cause so holy and so importing the honour of God and the comfort of his people If there were in the Ministerie true and faithfull seruauntes of God such as seeke not them selues but the thinges that belong to Christ Iesus And if there were of euerie Countrie men indued with pitie knowledge wisedome care of the Church the flowre of a lande assembled togither these were in deede for such a purpose to laye their heades togither and to conferre howe they might with most grace set out such a iewell to winne fauor to drawe loue wheresoeuer it should be seene and especiallie of those who should most of all take pleasure in iewelles of price For wherein could any mans giftes be better imployed then in recōmending for publique prayers and administration of the Sacramentes such a booke as is agreeable with the worde of God and the vse of the best reformed Churches Belike such a booke mainteyned not an vnlearned ministerie nor a pontificall Hierarchie which willinglie goe togither and vpholde one another nor reading of Apocripha rather then Canonicall scriptures in the publique assemblie of the Church nor priuate administration of the Sacra nor cases of necessitie of them implying the erroneous doctrine of conference of grace by them for the deede done nor the baptisme of women nor cōfirmation as an ordinance to giue increase of grace nor Bishops of a seuerall ordination and power from other Pastours nor Deacons without anie charge of the poore nor power to minister baptisme without like power to administer the Lordes supper nor to minister both without power to preach except further licence be graūted these such like matters no doubt such a booke could not mainteyne it being apparant what the worde of God is herein and the vse of the reformed churches Contrariwise it must needes be that such a booke appointeth that all Ministers of Sacra should be preachers that preaching bee ioyned alwayes with the ministerie of the Sacramentes and that they be alwayes ministred in the publique assemblie that they bee not diuided from preaching nor one from another in the pastours calling that the Deacons relieue the poore and the Eldership direct the causes of the
enioye the kingdome nor to beare ciuill offices but the causes of God and the causes of the King had their seuerall triall officers and Iudges But this a Bishop or Archbishop euen by his ordination is not onely not bounde vnto but of the contrarie being ordayned to exercise the office of a Bishoppe according to the worde of God and the ordinances of this Realme is to meddle with ciuill iustice For the worde of God not speaking any one worde of such an office and the ordinances of the Realme laying vpon them offices charges in ciuill affaires they intermedle with all causes by reason of their office I might note many other repugnances in-their offices with the lawfull charges of Pastours and Teachers as their immoderate power in dealing with all ecclesiasticall causes of gouernement alone in ordayning Ministers giuing and calling in licences censuring suspending excōmunicating absoluing such like But these reasons may suffice to shew that otherwise then the Replyer mainteyneth Bishoppes and Archbishops such as he speaketh of are not nor can not in any iust and true account be reckoned Pastours Teachers Such in deede they may haue bin and were firste ordayned to be and therefore ought to haue continued in that calling But accepting of th' offices of Bishops and Archbishops wherin there are so many things as haue bin shewed repugnant to the functions of Pastours and Teachers they can not in any sorte be esteemed trew Pastours and Teachers of the church such as our Sauiour appointed for the worke of the Ministerie but are a thing degenerate and growen out of kinde a humane creature and an institution and ordinance of Kings and Princes Thus much may suffice to shewe that Bishops and Archbi hops are not Pastours and Teachers Whereby it is playne to be no consequence whiche the Replier maketh for them in this place that is because there were Pastors and Teachers in the primitiue Church that therefore there were Bishops and Archbishops also in that time Hee addeth they are such as haue bene Deacons too which being admitted it followeth not because they haue bin Deacons and nowe are Bishops or Archbishops that therefore Bishops and Archbishops were in the primitiue Church But I denie that euer they were right and lawfull Deacons For a Deacon is an ecclesiasticall officer attending the poore of the Church whose Deacon he is The trueth of this is most euident by the Deacons of Ierusalem of whose institution we reade in the sixt of the Actes where the Apostles discharging them selues of this care and seruice determined and boūded their office of Apostleship for euer after within the boundes of preachinge and prayers and the Deacons office in that which they discharge them selues of that is in the attendance of the poore Which appeareth also by the 12. to the Romanes where their office is limited in like maner Nowe the Deaconshippe hee speaketh of which they haue had is no such matter but a meere humane institution a degree to priesthoode a power to baptise and reade the publique Litargie without power to minister the Lordes Supper or to preach by vertue of that calling and is nothing like the ordinance of GOD for the reliefe of the poore Therefore euen that also is not trew whiche the Replier saieth that they haue bin Deacons too In deede they haue come by the Deacons bagge and got into their hands that which by th'ordinance of God and the auncient commons of the Church should be distributed by the Deacons to the comfort of the poore Which the Christian Magistrate is in all duetie to God to require at their handes to restore to the former right vse againe as he is other partes of their liuings and namelie that which ought to be the liuing of the Pastors Teachers which attende vpon the seruice of the people in teaching and instructing them in true religion whose liutngs being taken away and cast into those seas would be restored againe that the people giuing their goods to be taught in the knowledge of God not able to giue any more do not perishe for wante of teaching but may receyue the fruite of this their liberalitie But this because I haue not further occasiō in this place I forbeare to debate at large onely by occasion of their Deaconshippe I haue in a word noted their iust dealing as with the poore and the Deacons so also with the Pastors and Teachers with all the people of God Whereby appeareth that howsoeuer they are transformed now are neither Pastours Teachers Elders nor Deacons yet sauing the worke and labour of these callings in preaching vnto the people and watching ouer them with the Lordes watche and seruing the necessities of the poore they haue wholy deuoured them all All the power authoritie and liuing both of Pastours Teachers and Deacons yea and the treasure of the poore also being possessed and enioyed by them Thus haue I answered his two reasons alleadged to proue Bishops and Archbishops to haue bin in the primitiue Church In this place affirming them to be in their office and kinde of ministerie Pastours and Teachers yet saith he sith he is the ordainer or ordinarie of them and ouerseer both of them the people he is in dignitie of another office and kinde of ministerie different from them For answere wherevnto he is to vnderstande that the worde of God giueth not this authoritie to a Bishop to be ouerseer of the people and also of their Pastours and Teachers nor to any one man bearing ecclesiasticall office to be the ordainer or the ordinarie as he speaketh of the Ministers of the worde As touching the firste of ouersight the worde Ouerseer or as we call it Bishop Actes 20. is vsed diuers times in the Scriptures but alwayes in regard of the people Phil. 1.1 and of the Church and at no time of other Ministers of the worde If it be otherwise let him shewe where a Bishop or Ouerseer is named in respect of other Pastours and Teachers True it is that Pastours Teachers may offende through the corruption of nature that is in all men therfore are not exempted and freed by the worde of God neither frō ouersight nor punishment but are liable to all maner of censures of the church as any other of the congregatiō to the ciuil punishments of the lawes But their ouerseers in such cases are the ciuil Magistrat who is to see that they doe their duties or to enforce them to it by ciuill punishments their cause being firste duely heard tried and iudged Further the Eldership of that church whervpon they attende and all the greater Cōferences and Synodes wherevnto by good order agreed in the churhc they are made subiect haue the ouersight of them power to admonish censure with ecclesiasticall censures of deposition from their ministerie or of suspension and excommunication as their offence may deserue So as no man in the Churche nor in the
nothing here worth the answering most of this speach being spent in a tale or two out of Aesope Of a Dogge and a Foxe with much gybing and iesting vppon the same matters fitter for some other stage then he is nowe vpon For nowe he is vppon a Theatre where men and Angells looke vppon him yea the Lorde blessed for euer Amen And where the Church especiallie amongst vs attende to heare of him whether it be in good state such as may promise the continuance and the increase of the blessing of God vpon vs or in an euill estate and such as may threaten the wrath of God and such grieuous punishmentes as in his anger he chastiseth the disobediences of his people with if being warned and called vpon to reforme them they doe not redresse nor amende them Whiche presence and expectation requireth a farre other speache and style then is here vsed Therefore I wishe he may take this warning hereafter to leaue this kinde of speache except hee will occupie him selfe with making playes as he was wont to doe but if he will deale with matters of grauitie and diuinitie to intreate grauilie of them and as becommeth a Diuine Nowe let vs come to his reasons Hee argueth that the order of the primitiue Church is not restored nowe in the best reformed Churces for his first reason hee alleadgeth that the offices of Apostles and such like are not restored Wherein knowing his answere to be readie that it is to be vnderstoode of that order which was setled in the primitiue church to continue these being but temporarie and extraordinarie he maketh him selfe this answere and then replyeth to it that so were also the Elders whose office is restored or if it bee otherwise that they were to remayne alwayes why then did they not alwayes continue but haue ceased so many yeres till they were nowe in this age restored agayne Wherevnto it is to bee answered as he partlie teacheth that most of the principall poyntes of the doctrine were not knowen in the publike ministerie of the Church for many yeares at the least not so as all partes might take knowledge of it I am not ignorant that there are many notable testimonies that in all ages the trueth of Religion was through the goodnes of God made knowen to some and so was it also I doubt not in the matters of the Discipline of the Church But as in the most publike and apparant visible Churches in all partes the holy doctrine it selfe ceased and the true worship of God was turned into superstition and idolatrie So in the order and guydance of the churche the right meanes and onely lawfull instituted and ordayned of God ceased in them This yet doeth not satisfie the replyer because he sayth of the rest Pastours Teachers Deacons we are able to shewe that there were in all ages good badde why then should not the like bee shewed of the Elder if it were alike perpetuall In which replye it is by the way to be obserued that he acknowledgeth the perpetuitie of the Teachers office and so good witnesse to warrant it For the continuance of these in the church he did wel to shuffle good and badde togither But lawfull Pastours Teachers and Deacons such as our Sauiour appointed to be in his church where will hee shewe them to haue continued I doubt not but he will alleadge the popishe Priestes Doctours and Deacons but he is to remember thar hee set downe in an other place that the Churche of Roome doeth ouerthrowe the foundation whiche hee declareth to bee Christ IESVS in an other place without whom neither can any particular man bee saued nor anie assembly bee the visible Churche of Christ And if the church of Roome haue not bene for many yeeres a trewe visible Church of Christ then could not the priestes and other their Cleargie-men be true and lawfull Pastors or officers in any place of the Church This hee thinketh to take away with sayinge good and badde In deede if their euill had bene onely in lyfe or in some one principall point of doctrine it were something hee saide But their defect was in the very calling For Christ being the dore and GOD that openeth to the Pastours that enter by it and all that enter otherwise are theeues and murderers What reckoning can bee made of their callinge to bee lawfull since the time that the doctrine of saluation by Christe IESVS and by faith in him onely was condemned But to deale more easilie with them and not to bringe them to the triall of the worde which they are in no sorte able to endure and to iudge them by the Cannons amongest so many as they were where can hee shewe anye for many yeeres togyther lawefully called accordinge to the best Cannons whereby a dewe examination of learning and lyfe going before the free consent of the Church whom it concerneth and ordination or layinge on of handes by those to whom it appertayneth is so required as if default bee made eyther in the examination or election the whole action is disanulled and made voyde Nowe if the Symoniacall compactes and bargaynes the brybes to procure fauour for benefices the buyings of aduousons and resignations whiche are generall mischiefes in the popishe Church And I would to God it might be sayde they are only there and the agreede authorized default of due election in all be compared with these Cannons it wil be founde that for many yeares no one of their Priestes hath bene by those Cannons lawfully called But if the manner of calling them were lawfull howe vnlike are the offices and functions exercised with them to those which our Sauiour hath appointed Their Priestes are ordayned not to preache the Gospell or to any other duetie of a true Pastour but to offer vppe Christ in sacrifice for the liuing and for the dead Teachers they haue none at all but schoole Doctours and created by the Popes writte which is nothinge like the Teacher of the Church set in it by our Sauiour Christe for the worke of the ministerie A Deacō by the first institutiō should be the disposer of the liberalitie and bountie of the Church bestowed for the reliefe of the poore such as are in miserie whereof no shadowe appeareth in their Deacons and I woulde this were onely trewe of theirs Whereby appeareth that in the Romish Church if he meane that as I take it hee must needes doe he shall not finde in it for many yeares any lawfull Pastour Teacher or Deacon neyther by the worde of God nor by the better Cannons that haue bin made concerning their calling yet nowe the thirde time the Replyer helping him selfe with good and bad tagge ana ragge mainteyneth that Pastours Teachers and Deacons haue alwayes continued in the churche that by such pretence he might seeme to saye somewhat agaynst the Elders office because as hee sayeth it did not so continewe But I haue alreadie shewed this was no continuance of the
holy ministeries which our Sauiour ordayned but other humane deuyses and creatures of Popes Archbishops and Bishops Which yet if it doe not content him I may saye further that this office of Elder continued in suche sorte as he affirmeth the other to haue done For what were the Ciuilians Doctours and Proctours Chauncelors Commissaries Officialls and the rest of that traffique Officers and Retaylers to the great Marchaunts of soules Archbishopps and Bishods who notwithstanding they were lay men did administer the censures of the Church without any due and ordinarie ecclesiasticall calling in deede at the appointment onely of their Lordes and Maisters the Bishops to a foule profanation of the holy censure of the Church whether it bee done in Babylon or in Syon For this iniquitie also is to be founde euen in the Church of God Yet in their administration the office of the Elder is as much and a great deale more to bee seene then true and lawfull Pastours Teachers and Deacons appeare to haue continued in such tagge and ragge as were in the popishe church But the trueth is that all Euangelicall charges and the Gospell it selfe was deteyned in vnrighteousnes and the free right and originall nature vse and benefite of these offices ceased and was interrupted for a time as the like hath come to passe in other such wastes and desolations of the Church as in the time of some of the Iudges in the raigne of Manasses and in the captiuitie the ordinarie offices and dueties were interrupted and God extraordinarily preserued his people All these things were for a time Luke 20.9 as the inheritance in the parable of the Gospell in the handes and possession of vniust and rebellious seruauntes But nowe the Lorde sendeth out his seruauntes and demaundeth of his seruauntes that fruite seruice and honour whiche is due vnto him with a part whereof he will not be satisfied but will haue all his rightes and regalities prerogatiues and offices restored vnto him or els will punishe them as rebells and vniust with-holders This is the answere I make to this poynt whiche the Replyer bolteth out in ceasing by de facto not de iure and when he hath done replyeth to it with an idle questiō if they were once where they haue bin hidden or banished all this whyle or if they were dead and buried c. not worth anie answere Another reason why the order vsed in the primitiue Church should not be restored nowe in the reformed Churches is because they haue no Bishops nor Archbishops whom he affirmeth to haue bin in that time yea and ordayned by the Apostles to haue authoritie ouer them in the Regions and Cities limited to them Whiche superiour and olde standardes to displace sayeth hee to bring in yonge and inferiour Seignours as they who hauing seene the olde temple did also see the laying of the foundation of the newe So would it make a mans harte throbbe and bleede to see howe the beautie of the Church is vaded hir ornamentes spoyled her body haled vnder pretence of reforming This argument needeth no long aunswere to it hauing bin sufficientlie shewed before that it is a vanitie to thinke that such offices as Archbishops and Bishops nowe beare ouer the Churches and the Ministers of the same to haue bin in that time Here it may suffice as it is but affirmed with a word of his without any maner of profe so to denie it with another vpon the reasons before alledged As for his weeping to see the old standards pulled downe and the Church spoyled of her ornamentes if hee meane hereby the manours and royalties that are in other mens handes whō can he blame for it more then such as care not howe the successours doe so they may aspire to the dignitie they couetouslie and ambitiouslie seeke and labour for If hee meane not those braunches but the trees them selues from whence they growe let him consider the bitter fruite they haue borne and the vnwholesome shadowe they haue cast from the first roote they tooke and especiallie of late he shall haue no cause to weepe to see the axe making readie to be layde to their rootes His harte should rather bleede to see in the garden of God anie trees wherein vncleane birdes make their nestes and vncleane beastes take their reast and from whence the cleane are driuen for feare of annoyance and which suffer no fruite or heauenly plante to growe vnder them or neare vnto them Then would he praye with the watchmen of whome Daniell writeth Dan. 4.11 Cut downe ô Lorde these great and noysome trees whiche are strong to euill and not to good Many a fayre tree hath the Lorde plucked vp and in time it is to bee hoped that he will doe the like to these For our Sauiour hath saide Euerie plante that my heauenly Father hath not planted shal be rooted vp Mat. 15.13 His harte bleedeth to see the goodly leases that are drawen from Church-liuings the great Lordshippes that are gone from the Cleargie and Cathedrall Churches and peraduenture some other giftes to see the dispensations whiche seeme to threaten the carying away of an I le and an Earldome from some who would fayne enioye them still But whose harte is mooued with compassion of the people of God whiche is in deede his trewe church to see the worde of God daily taken from them and they left as a flocke of sheepe vpon the moūtaynes without their shephearde to see the Preachers forbidden to preach the Gospell to see the church kept as in captiuitie vnder a reading and lordlie ministerie that neyther teache the people them selues nor suffer other that would to teache them to see goodlie assemblies which haue made heauen and earth to ringe and resounde agayne with the prayses of God scattred and distolued to see the places like Eden the garden of God before the storme layde wast and desolate as the desert places to see the zealous people of God running as in a drought to finde a spring of sweete waters where they may quenche their thirste and faynting in their soules for want of it so many fountaynes being stopped and sealed vppe they that haue the bowells of Christ in them are to be moued with these things As for matters of griefe here mentioned the matter is not so great so that things be done by due order and with consideration of sufficient maintenance of those which God hath appoynted for the worke of the ministerie of all the ordinances of God and the edification and comfort of his people Hitherto in this section the Replyer hath discoursed of the former sorte of reasons of this section which is of the causes confirming the order set downe in the Declaration Nowe he proceedeth to the other argument remayning which is of the great fruite and benefite of this order in the Churches which haue receyued it and the want of the same in suche as haue not yet restored it agayne Wherein first scanning
namely the priestes were they whose lippes were fined from earthlie corruption and sett on fyre with the coales of the Lordes altar by an Angell of heauen and whose mouth was sanctified of God Esa 1.10.11 Heare the word of the Lorde sayeth Esay yee leaders or Princes of Sodome and hearken to the doctrine of God ô ye people of Gomorrah What haue I to doe with the multitude of your sacrifices saith the lord I am full of the burnt offringes of the Rammes and of the fatte of the fed beastes and I desire not the bloud of Bullockes nor of lambes nor of goates And agayne Their watchmen are all blinde they haue no knowledge they are all dumbe dogges they can not barke they lye and sleepe and delyte in sleeping Iere. 8.10.11.12 Likewise Ieremie sayeth I will giue their wiues vnto others and their fieldes to them that shall possesse them for euery one from the least euen to the greatest is giuen to couetousnes and from the Prophete euen vnto the Priest euerie one dealeth falselie For they haue healed the hurt of the doughter of my people with sweete wordes saying Peace peace when there is no peace Were they ashamed when they had committed abhomination Nay they were not ashamed neyther could they haue any shame therefore shall they fall among the stayne when I shall visite them they shal be cast downe saieth the Lorde If it be obiected that these Prophetes might liue in some wicked Kings dayes wherein the holy worship of God was wholy suppressed and superstition only Idolatrie tooke place I answere that they exercised in deede their Propheticall office ministerie in diuers kings times whereof though some were wicked yet some also were godlie and ouerthrewe idolatrie and sett vp the true worship of GOD yea some of them namely Iosiah and Ezeckiah were the two rarest Princes for pietie and zeale that euer after Dauid were kings ouer that people yet did no honest man much les any true Prophete esteeme their most iust reproofe of the iniquitie of all states to be iniurious or derogatorie to the honor of those noble Kings no nor anie of the Priests that did their duties They were in deede hereby warned as by the voyce of God to looke to such enormities and to see them reformed otherwyse they were to feele as they were threatened with the wrath of God who would require it at their handes if for default of employing the authoritie whiche GOD for such purpose had giuen them notorious transgressions chieflie in things belonginge to the seruice of God were not redressed yet did those Prophetes honour and loue their Church their Countrey their Princes and all estates of the people as we doe the Lord bearing witnes to vs that we speake the trueth and as wee ought to honour all lawfull authoritie and power in the common wealth or in the church In deed they had not sworne Canonicall obedience to any of their Priests as the Replyer sayth peraduenture some of vs haue done for this is an othe whiche God neuer commaunded and howsoeuer it be suffered if it might be duely examined would be founde meete and necessarie to be reformed both in regarde of God of the crown and dignitie of the Prince But to returne to my former purpose howe deare were the Churches of Corinth of Galatia and other places to the Apostle Paule who loued them to liue and dye with them to deale vnto them not the Gospell of Christ onely but euen his owne soule yet howe sharpely doeth he rebuke them Was he therefore their enimie because he did so and tolde them the trueth In the Reuelation Iohn writeth by commaundement to the Churches of Asia without derogation to anie thing that was in good state amongst them yea to the commendation of that which was such but yet so sharpely reprouing them for certayne enormities that were amongst them as that he threatneth the remouing of their golden Candlesticke and the goodly light of the Gospell of Christ whiche shined amongest them If then the writer of the Declaration haue rebuked in a worde the disorder of the policie and Discipline of our Church in that good sorte that is meete or if any of vs doe the like are we therefore as the Replier woulde haue vs not thankfull nor faithfull Ministers to God or not louing and obedient subiectes We may I hope truly professe that we both feare God and honour the Prince and loue his Church amongst vs and are faithfull and obedient according to Gods word vnto both But the feare of God our most bounden duetie to our dread soueraigne Ladie the Queene our zealous loue to our Church doe constrayne vs to rebuke that which is reproueable by Gods worde not to dishonour our church or any whom the state thereof may concerne but to procure the further reformation of it and thereby to encrease the honour of it incomparably more then euer heretofore both with God and in all the Churches I would to God we had cause to saye with the Apostle We reioyce to see the stayednes of your faith and the order that is amongest you I would to God we might say it were without spot or wrinckle and might truely speake of it all the most honourable thinges that are spoken of the Church of God and saye Jt is cleare as the morning fayre as the Moone pure as the Sunne and that what els Salomon according to his wisedome in his excellent Song commendeth the Church by or any other of the Prophetes or whatsoeuer the Apostles doe prayse any of the churches for might be verified of it This should be our comfort and our ioye our honour and our crowne And therfore doe we not cease by earnest prayer and most humble sute to God and to the authoritie which he hath set ouer vs and by all dutie agreeable to our callinge to procure the increase of the good and honour of it with all power But it being subiect to a curse to call euill good and iustly reprooued in former times to say all is well where GOD is displeased with many things that are not well but neede most speedie reformation conscience to God and louing duetie towarde the Church seeme to haue moued the authour of the Declaration to note that disordre which he esteemed to bee in the state of our church ought to enforce vs to do the like vpon iust occasiō If all things be ordered according to the worde of God in our Church then surely was the authour of the Declaration deceyued in iudgement but in affection and purpose of hart committed nothing against it But I demaunde If by the worde of God vnlearned men of all occupations and trades be sufficient Ministers to take charge of the holy thinges of Gods worde and Sacramentes and of the soules of the people Is the state of the Church well ordered whiche hauing the fauourable countenance of a gratious Queene according to the promise Queenes
sayeth he these fight not betweene them selues but from the beginning were most nearily ioyned togither although the propertie of eyther be distinguished in the Church as is playne in the examples of Moses and Aaron Wherein Gellius godly and truelie proueth that these two ordinances of God are not enimies so that the one should not abyde the other but rather that from the beginning they were of good and friendlie agreement whiche is well prooued by Moses and Aaron who being brethren and eyther of them bearing the chiefe office in either state both ciuill and ecclesiasticall sheweth a naturall and brotherlie respect betweene these two states and that naturallie from the beginning they haue mainteined comforted cherished one another This is it onely which Gellius meaneth there whiche is as farre from the Repliers collection as those two states are sayde by Gellius and are in deede neare one to another as may appeare most euidentlie by sundrie other circumstances of that place and the direct opposition of these wordes they fight not betweene them selues to these but haue bin alwayes most nearely ioyned togither and the adiectiue there vsed in the superlatiue degree of comparison in which sorte no man speaking Latin would saye that these two had bin alwayes togither but in the positiue To like purpose he noteth out of another place a little after in the margent the ciuill and ecclesiasticall power ioyned alwayes in the Church and in the texte of the wordes of his translation setteth downe in a diuerse letter these words haue alwayes bin ioyned togither Wherevpon he gathereth thus If it were alwayes ioyned togither that is to say the Magistracie ecclesiasticall ministerie it was euen then ioyned when our brethren auouch that it was not onely disioyned but that the one was perfect when the other was not at all Wherein hee committeth the same grosse ouersight that hee did in the former place For Gellius in this place gathereth his generall conclusion of sundrie argumentes alleadged before Whereof this hauing bin of the good agreement that hath alwayes bin in the Church from the beginning betweene these two functions togither with the rest he reckoneth vp this almost in the same wordes he had set it downe in before Whiche seeing it can haue no other sense in the conclusion then it had before it is playne no such thing can bee gathered of it as the Replyer pretendeth As impertinent are his other collections and obseruations out of the same authour as that those churches so much commended before by the Declaration are troubled with Anabaptistes His purpose was to prooue that there were Chrstian Princes in the primitiue Church but how farre wyde roueth he from this marke in telling vs of another matter of Anabaptistes Of whom yet that hee sayeth is not trewe that the Churches commended before by the Declaration are the same that are sayd by Gellius there by accident to be troubled with that secte But if it were should that discommende their reformation according to Gods worde Nay rather it commendeth them that they are so amongest them as that they are not hidden nor alowed nor suffered so to continue but discouered and disprooued in worde and in writing and in publike disputation for their recouerie if it were possible or els for the keeping of those who are yet sincere not to be seduced by them Yet if this must needes be an embasing of the honour of the reformation of those Churches I would he could say for ours that there are none of the familie no recusants yea no Anabaptistes nor Libertines nor of anie other erronious secte amongst vs or could shewe in any part of the worlde anie fielde of the Lordes where the Enimie soweth not tares amongst the wheate or anie flooore where the wheate is not mingled with chaffe and that not onely in regarde of euil life but also of erroneous doctrines according as it was sayde to the church of Corinth there must be heresies amōgst you that they who are tryed and sounde in fayth may bee made manifest His next obseruation out of Gellius is that the state of the olde Testament and new is all one which as Gellius there teacheth that is concerning the way of iustification and the obedience to the morall lawe is very trewe but nothinge to the Replyers purpose The next obseruation which is that God did by an extraordinarie power punishe the wicked where the ordinarie was wanting that is as he expoundeth by the Apostles Peeter and Paule punishe Ananias Saphyra and Elymas when the chief and ordinarie Magistrates ouer them were not Christian Princes is not onely nothing for his purpose as the former but directlie against him For him selfe confesseth contrarie to that he pretended to proue in the beginning and by a former obseruation out of Gellius that alwayes the two functions of Magistracy and ministerie haue bin ioyned in the church and his collection vpon that Therefore euen in that time when it is denyed by the Declaration to haue bin so He nowe confesseth that the chiefe and ordinarie Magistrates were not then Christian Princes If he had not confessed it the trueth hereof is manifest by the Actes of the Apostles in Paules appealing to Caesar and all the stories of that age But his owne confession against him selfe Actes 25.11 was not to be pretermitted Yet as if hee knewe not his owne voyce or would denie his owne hande he continueth his purpose to prooue out of Gellius the former vntrueth that Princes should haue bin Christians in that time To which purpose although it be in deede nothing to the purpose he noteth out of him that contrarie to the assertion of the Declaration Gellius sheweth that there were Magistrates in the time of Christ and the Apostles As if the Declaration denyed that the worlde was then gouuerned by Magistrates as it hath alwayes bin or that any bearinge any ciuill office receyued the fayth of Christ and yet continued their calling Neyther of these is denyed by the Declaratiō to whiche ende Gellius fitlie alleadgeth the examples of Cornelius other but the Declaration speaketh expreslie of soueraigne Princes saying But of the supreame authoritie of Christian Princes and after in the wordes which the Replier hath vndertaken to disproue that the Church of God was perfect in all hir regiment before there was anie Christian Prince Yet of this most impertinent reply and of this his so fruitlesse labour this is to be noted that he confesseth the question to bee concerning the tyme of Christ and the Apostles time In whose time if he pretende any soueraigne Prince to haue bin Christian he were worthie a better rewarde then he can by any reason looke for But where as he reprochfully and despitefullie setteth it downe that Gellius proceeding commeth to the Anabaptistes obiection of this selfe same reason that our brethren in this learned discourse doe vrge that is that the Church of God was perfect in all hir regiment before there
But of this there wil be a fitter place to speake Here it may suffice to admonishe the Reader of the insufficiencie whiche Gellius noteth to be in men for exercising of both offices For which cause God did distinguish and seuer them to be administred by diuers persons Thus proceedeth he on still with Gellius noting in the next place the example of Christian Magistrates in Christ and the Apostles times Whiche is that place where Gellius maketh mention of the Captaynes or Centurions of Joseph Nicodemus and such like wherevnto I haue answered before alreadie Nowe the Replyer hauing fought a great whyle with another mans weapons and persuading him selfe that his owne right hande had done valiauntlie beginneth to sounde his trumpet as if the victorie were his owne saying thus wee see most euidently howe weake this reason is to witte of the perfection of the Churches regiment before there were any christian Princes and with what a multitude of farre better reasons yea with a cloude of witnesses it is beaten downe Wherin he reioyceth as if a blinde man striking often at a venture because he hath wearied him selfe should triumphe as if hee had driuen his enimie out of the fielde Yet hauinge in the middest of this his blinde vanitie some glymse that this reason commeth still like an armed man vpon him hee holdeth out this bucklar against it that it auayleth not to saye they were no Emperours For sayeth he it euicteth the cause sufficientlie that they were Princes or at least any kinde of Magistrates In deede if it may suffice to shewe that any Magistrates in the time of our Sauiour Christ receyued the faith of the Gospell he hath wonne his spurres and is worthie if not to bee knighted yet Bishopped which I thinke he had rather be But the question is onely of soueraigne Princes whether any such were Christians in that time Whiche his cloude of witnesses vanishing away like a cloude or as a cloude without water driuen about with euery winde hath not bin able to doe for him Yet is he not satisfied thus to leaue the matter but obiecteth against him selfe that those Magistrates exercised no authoritie ouer the Church but were in it as priuate men Which is very true but not alleadged by the Declaration and therefore no cause he should enter into the disprooue of that except he can not endure that any trueth stande before him To this hauing litle to saye of him selfe he sayeth that Gellius sayeth somewhat to this out of whom yet he noteth no one word to this purpose but to another he noteth that the churches regiment is more happie where Christian Princes are Which thing the Declaration might haue taught him And thus farre hath he reasoned out of Gellius against the first part of the argument of the Declaration affirming the Churches regiment to haue bene perfect before that anie Princes were Christians For that which he addeth after of his owne of Paules appeale to Caesar for the decision as hee sayeth of an ecclesiasticall controuersie is of so small colour of likelihoode as can not easilie abuse anie For who will be so absurde as to thinke that Paule referred the decision of the question hee had with the Iewes concerning saluation by our Sauiour Christe as it is Ecclesiasticall to Nero who vnderstoode nothinge of those matters and was him selfe a great enemie as the Apostle seemeth to call him as a Lyon readie to deuoure all that made profession of that faith 2. Tim. 4.17 It were time nowe to proceede to his replye to the other parte of the argument but that the Reader is firste to be admonished concerning Gellius out of whom the Replyer hath written so many leaues because of all other he thought him to write most soundlie and fauourablie of the office and power of Magistrates that this same Gellius so duetifull to Magistrates is an earnest defendour of that ecclesiasticall gouuernement which the Replyer in all his booke oppugneth Whereof it is to bee obserued that the reformed Discipline which is desired to be established amongest vs is in no sorte preiudiciall to Christian Princes or other Magistrates For Gellius who writeth as earnestlie for the maintenance of the reformed Discipline as anie the same also writeth as duetifullie of the office and power of Magistrates and as largelie yea and more against the Anabaptistes then euer did any of the Romane Hierarchie or vnreformed Discipline Therefore notwithstandinge our seekinge to aduaunce by all good and lawfull meanes that holy ordinance of GOD of the onely lawfull Discipline whereby the Church ought to bee guyded wee may be and are by the grace of God as loyall and louing subiectes as duetifull and obedient as anie are of their whyte coate whiche they striue so much for Besides this the Reader is to obserue the good discretion of the Replyer in resting so wholy vppon the authoritie of Gellius in this matter Whose testimonie if he acknowledge so graue and of such credite as if it had bin against vs he would haue giuen sentence against vs vppon it why should not the same mans witnes bee of like waight and credite to iustifie our cause and to preiudice his if so be his testimonie may be shewed to be with vs and against him in this cause of the Discipline of the Church But this is manifest by a treatise of Gellius expresselie written of ecclesiasticall Discipline Out of which I might write more leaues to shewe his iudgement and his reasons in the diuerse pointes of Discipline for that onely lawfull and holy order which the Replyer hath audaciouslie set him selfe against and oppugneth then he wrote out of him to no purpose for the office of the Magistrate Whereby it is cleare that if he stande to the witnesse of Gellius he hath lost the whole cause hee laboureth so greatlie to mainteyne Nowe I proceede to the rest of his replye The Declaration for proofe of the order to be followed in that treatise hauing alleadged that the regiment of the churche was perfect before there were any christiā Princes addeth further that it may doeth stande at this day in most blessed estate where the ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers The reply to this beginneth with such an exclamation as a man would thinke he hearde sawe the hye Priest mentioned in the Gospell renting his cloathes and cryinge Hee hath blasphemed what neede we any more witnesses Mat. 26.65 Behold now you haue heard his blasphemie what thinke you yet was it no euill that was spoken but a most holy trueth whiche that priest of all other ought to haue perceyued There follow next idle repetitions as of other thinges so of his former vayne demaundes what vse then there may bee of Christian Magistrates to the Church Wherevppon I haue alreadie aunswered shewinge the Magistrates to bee ordeyned of GOD for the protection of the good and punishment of the euil doer And that as in other matters so also in