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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41624	Reflections upon the Answer to the papist mis-represented directed to the answerer.	Gother, John, d. 1704.	1686 (1686)	Wing G1348; ESTC R35709	11,565	20

REFLECTIONS Upon the ANSWER To the PAPIST Mis-represented c. Directed to the ANSWERER SIR I have perus'd your Answer and am glad to find it so moderate and calm You make here and there some Personal reflections indeed but this being done soberly without heat and passion I am still bound to thank you if not on my particular yet on the Publick score For having by this convinc'd the world that men of different judgments may now treat of matters of Controversie without making use of Satyr and Scurrility or letting Cavil fill up the place of Judgment and Reason This method I cannot but approve as most agreeable to Christianity And if I pursue the same in giving a farther explication of some most material Points you have been pleas'd to question in my small Treatise as also in letting you know my farther sence of Yours I hope it may be done without offence and that the shortness I shall use will be easily pardon'd if it be but to the purpose Sir You let me know my First Character of a Papist Mis-represented is not satisfactory as not founded on the sense of a Party and the quotations of Authors but being rather my own False Apprehensions my ignorant my childish or wilful mistakes Indeed had I been bred up in a Wood and jumpt forth into the world with this Character in my head I should have had reason to subscribe to you But because upon examination I find I was educated in a well-peopled Town at the foot of the Pulpit and liv'd always in Company and Conversation I cannot imagin this Character so my own as you seem to understand it but rather my own as I receiv'd it And you need not wonder that I did not heretofore by the help of Books or Friends receive better information and correct my false Apprehensions of Popery For indeed were I even at this time to be rul'd by the greatest number of these the Character of a Papist would be with me much blacker yet than I have there drawn it There would be but few strokes of reason or Christianity in it but Beast and Barbarous all over And pray do you see Sir what weighty proofs are urg'd against me to shew how foul and monstrous a Religion I have chosen They shew me the Book of Homilies laying a good foundation Mr. Fox's Book of Martyrs Bishop Ridley's Writings The Publick Test A Manual of three small Treatises by John late Arch-Bishop of York for the use of a Lady to preserve her from the danger of Popery Printed London 1672. Then a large Description given by Mr. Sutcliffe in his Survey of Popery where he undertakes to draw its several features as chap. 10. That Popery is a sink of Heathenish Idolatry chap. 27. That t is a most absurd and foolish Religion chap. 32. That it is a Doctrine of Devils chap. 47. That in many points 't is more absurd and abominable than the Doctrine of Mahomet Then the Anatomy of Popery printed at London 1673. in which an Agreement is shown between Paganism and Popery in six and twenty Points and with the Jews and Pharisees in other ten Then Mr. Julian Johnson who has again set forth This Comparison of Popery and Paganism especially as to Politheism and Idolatry With the approbation of his Answerer Jovian who assures him that He with all the rest that have so thundred of late with the Thebean Legion like it well and are as well satisfied with it as he himself is bating some irreverent Phrases Now Sir amidst these Authentick proofs besides a great number of other Authors who undertake to draw Popery in its own Colours what convenience or even possibility had I of framing any better apprehension of this Religion than was here laid before me Especially since my Friends were not wanting to vouch the truth of all this and to assure me they had heard all this over and over from Men of Character and in Places which gave it reputation beyond all question Neither does it appear to me had it been my fortune to have consulted you in this affair that I should have been much rectified as to these my Childish or Wilful Mistakes concerning Popery as is evident from the Character you give of it throughout your Answer and especially at the end pag. 161. viz. That it is that you can never yield to without betraying the truth renouncing your senses and Reason wounding your Conscience dishonouring God and his Holy Word and Sacraments perverting the doctrine of the Gospel as to Christ's satisfaction Intercession and Remission of sins depriving the People of the means of Salvation which God himself hath appointed and the Primitive Church observ'd and damning those for whom Christ died But however I will not insist upon this point He rather yeild than be contentious And because you say that my Character of a Papist Mis-represented is made up of False Apprehensions Ignorant Childish and Wilful Mistakes He own it to be no better But then Sir you must give me leave to make use of your Authority with my Friends and Acquaintance in assuring them that wheresoever they shall for the future either hear or read such things charg'd upon the Papists they must give it no credit and esteem it no better than the False Apprehensions Ignorant Childish and Wilful Mistakes of the Relatours Upon this condition I close this point only adding that in laying down the Colours of a Papist Mis-represented I never thought of declaring the Articles of your Church or by Mis-representing the Papist to represent you as you seem to mistake me But only to shew the many Mistakes and Errours to be found amongst Protestants of what kind soever concerning the notion of Popery for Debitor sum sapientibus Insipientibus And tho you seem willing in your Introduction that your Reader should esteem this our complaint of being basely Mis-represented no better than a meer Pretence or a Design of such who go about to deceive by comparing it with the Complaints of the Arians Pelagians Nestorians c Yet we are beholding to you soon after when finding some of the dirt thrown at us to fall upon your own Face by your standing so near us you then own it to be grounded and Real pitying the Weakness and Folly of those who Cast it pag. 10. And therefore I believe you will close with me in this Point that Mis-representing is Mis-representing tho from those who dissent from your Church But we go on to the other Character of the Papist represented And this too it seems affords you as little satisfaction as the former on several accounts And First you move a Scruple by the by pag. 9. by your having no mind to ask How the Council of Trent should come to be the Rule and Measure of Doctrine to any here where it was never received As if in this Character I had observ'd a Rule which ought to be none Here nor is

make a Collection of private Mens sentiments and obtrude them for the truly Representing the Doctrine of the Church in whose Communion they are And this is not the Case of our Church alone there 's no Church or Congregation in the World will stand this Test And if it come a little home to you it may be you will be more sensible of this truth For althô you seem to maintain in your Answer that good works of justified Persons are not Free yet t is not just this Doctrine should be immediately charg'd for the Belief of your Church Althô Mr. Thorndike seems to allow Prayers for the Dead yet neither from him are we to take a true representation of the Doctrin of his Church Thô a worthy Divine declares that in case a Popish Julian indeed should Reign over us he should Believe him uncapable of Repentance and upon that supposition should be tempted to pray for his Destruction yet would it not be honest hence to blacken his Church with this Dis-loyal Principle as if she allowed her Members thô not to Fight against yet to Pray for the Destruction of such a Prince The like may be said of King James the First his holding Christ to be truly present in the Sacrament and there also to be truly ador'd maintaining in his Epistle to Cardinal Perron the Doctrine of the Real Presence to be the Doctrine of the Church of England and again what the aforesaid Mr. Thorndike delivers of the same Real Presence and Adoration of Christ in the Eucharist practis'd in the Antient Church from the beginning and thereupon owning the Eucharistical Sacrifice to be truely the Sacrifice of Christ upon the Cross in as much as the Body and Blood of Christ are contain'd in them and then farther adding that the Sacrifice of the Cross being necessarily Propitiatory and Impetratory both it cannot be denied that the Sacrament of the Eucharist in as much as it is the same Sacrifice of Christ upon the Cross is also both Propitiatory and Impetratory Will you give me leave from hence to inferr that because these are the sentiments of such Eminent Persons in the Communion of the Church of England that therefore they are the Doctrine of that Church I suppose you will not and therefore in the true Representation of the Doctrine of yours or our Church I suppose you will easily grant that no appeal ought to be made to such Private Authors but the Undertaker is oblig'd to keep close to the sense of either Church declar'd in their Councils and Decrees and as explicated by their Authority And as far as you have effectually prov'd this against what I have represented for the Faith of a Papist so so far will I allow you have given me a just Answer And as much as you fail of this so much you come short of what you undertake which I recommend to your own perusal to examine But for any of these ways they are insignificant to your design and deserve not to stand under the Title of an Answer For how does your acknowledging our Doctrine to be yours your producing some broken Expressions out of Mass-Books your putting Objections from external Actions from private Authors or your own Opinion any ways prove that the Faith of a Papist as I have represented it is not according to the Council of Trent and what really he is bound as a Papist to Believe And yet this is the thing you ought to have prov'd to make good your Title But instead of this you generally let your Reader understand that I have indeed stated the matter aright and only tell him that you have something to say against the Doctrine and do not like it But your saying I hope or if it could be proving that Catholicks do not do well to Believe as I Represent is no Argument to prove that I do not Represent well This as to the Representing the Doctrine of our Church I should say something to your concluding Argument which comes so home p. 14. I allow it seems the Orders of the Supream Pastor are to be obey'd whether he be Infallible or no. I confess likewise in another place that some Popes have own'd the Deposing Doctrine and Acted according to it And here you infer Therefore the Papists are bound by the Doctrine of their Church to Act when the Popes shall require it according to the Deposing Power And does this bring the matter home Why then Sir you must ee'n give me leave to make another inference That What brings the matter home is nothing but an ordinary piece of Sophistry and let the Reader judge The Representer p. 42. speaking of the Popes Authority says that as in any Civil Government the Sentence of the Supream Judge or Highest Tribunal is to be Obey'd thô there be no assurance of Infallibility or Divine Protection from Error or Mistake So is he taught should be done to the Orders of the Supream Pastor whether he be Infallible or no. Where a Parallel is made between the Orders of Popes and Civil Powers as to the Obedience due to them from their Subjects Now Sir if it be your Opinion that this Authority and Power in these Supream Governours is so Absolute and Vnconfin'd that like to God himself there can be no just exception made to any of their Actions or Decrees whatsoever they be then indeed your reasoning Answers your intent But if the Case be possible that these may so Act or Command that the not-following or not-obeying in Inferiors may be no Crime then you come but short of home and prove just nothing Now change but the matter of your Argument and see how far it goes The Orders of a Prince being Supream Governour are to be Obey'd whether he be Infallible or no But some Princes have done thus and thus therefore the People by the Law are bound to Act so and so Does this hold in every Action or Order of a Prince without Limit or Exception Tho a Prince be to be obey'd yet it follows uot that his Word is the Law So that whosoever takes this for a concluding Argument must neither understand Law nor Logick I need not put the Reader in mind how often you make your digressions amongst the School-men and leave not scouting among them till you have lost the matter in hand And dispute about their Opinions instead of matter of Faith how in the Point of dispensations where we speak of the Moral Law and assert the Pope cannot dispense with it as give leave to break the Commandments to lye or for-swear You shew your learning in proving he can dispense with other Laws and Positive Institutions a thing scarce to be doubted of and nothing to our purpose I le say nothing of the admirable close of Your Chapter of Dispensations in which tho you have not produc'd one proof of Dispensations for lying or for swearing being allow'd in our Church on any account whatsoever you yet give this