safetie before others but the Lord knoweth whose trueth is with vs that there is no cause And whatsoeuer by the power of all popish learning hath beene alleadged as any cause we haue answered soundly out of Gods booke our answeres standing without reply vnto this day Our seruice theeefore is lawfull our praiers are holy our meetings are Christian and no better way to be resolued hereof then part by part to examine them So haue some done and beene reformed wondering howe so great slaunders could be raised where no cause is found The authoritie also of lawefull gouernment commaundeth but lawefull things increaseth the dutie to obey and presseth with no smaller weight then damnation as the Apostle flattely affirmeth if we resist Rom. 1â— Conceits may not take place where such euidence of trueth doth gainsay them If I had a conceit or perswasion that all meates would kill me must I certainely die for want of meate and retaine my errour The Galatians prescribed themselues amisse in some things and the Apostle thought it a reason sufficient to reforme them to tell them that such a perswasion was not the perswasion of him that called them meaning of God Gal. 5.8 And the scriptures phrase in the matter of perswasion is to adde through the Lord. Rom. 14.24 2. Thes 3.4 I am persvvaded through the Lord which is worthie noting Deare Mother the Lords annointed ouer you her sacred Maiestie commandeth this dutie and there is no deuill of hell can prooue this charge vnlawefull Therefore by the bonde of a subiect true and faithfull you ought to obey My father with sighes and groanes of a troubled heart desireth it and therefore by the bonde of a wife louing and dutifull you ought to obey And which is the greatest of all the God that made you coÌ„mandeth it to you and all his seruants therfore by the bonde of a childe of God you ought to obey The bondes are great the duty is holy the obedience is euerlasting peace comfort life the danger also is great to striue to offend And therefore happie is that heart that yeeldeth betimes If by reading their bookes this wound hath beene giuen you then reade our answeres and let God heale They haue written no matter of moment these 40. yeares in our english tongue but fully and soundly is it answered to Gods glorie Yea their new testament wherein is their whole strength heaped togither is learnedly answered to the full contentment of any not desperatly giuen ouer to his owne blindnesse In matter of lawe concerning the goodes of this world you will heare contrarie opinions and choose with iudgemeÌ„t In matter of phisicke concerning your bodie you will doe the like beat out a trueth Shall onely the soule be neglected and pinned on other mens sleeues ô God forbidde He hath promised that neuer deceiued eueÌ„ in this matter also Aske and you shall haue seeke and you shall finde knocke and it shall be opened vnto you Thus shall we finde their great wickednesse in denying the scriptures to be read of them that haue soules to be saued as well as themselues their taking away the cuppe from the lay people when Christs institution was Drinke ye all of this their leauing the second commandement out of their catechismes because it forbid deth Images their multitude of bodily exercises when the scripture saith they profit little their killing of princes when the Lord saith Touch not mine annointed and Dauids heart smote him for cutting off but the lappe of Sauls garment and to no worse ende then to make him see his innocency and his guardes negligence their freeing of subiects from their obedience and alliegance when it is written Let euery soule be subiect c. Their direct crossings of the written worde as when it is saide No man commeth to the father but by me they say we haue many mediatours by whome we may come to the father besides Christ when it is said Thou shalt not commit adultery they say if not chastly yet charily and find in one fish ponde of Gregory 6000 childrens skulls by that wicked charynes wheÌ„ the Lord saith You erre because you knowne not the scriptures they say directly contrarie you will erre if you meddle with the scriptures when the Lord saieth when you haue done all say you are vnprofitable seruants they say we may doe workes of supererogation more then we are bound and so merit for others Also when the Lord forbiddeth a lusting looke their Pope giueth licence not onely to erect a stews wherein not long since were nuÌ„bred 40000. harlots that paid a yeerely rent and vpon the 12 day at night were seene goe into the Popes pallace 17. coaches full of curtizans But ô horrible euen â—o practise the sinne against nature and not to be named during the 3. hotte moneths in the yeare Iune Iuly August Al which with many moe may giue any Christian man or woman not finally forsaken of God and left to a reprobate mind a true tast of that Cursed religion and cause them iustly to reason thus Popery maintaineth flat Idolatrie diuers waies therefore not true It alloweth other grosse sinnes forbidden of God therefore not true It nuzleth the hart of man in securitie therefore not true It robbeth the conscience of comfort and hope by maintaining doubting therefore not true It destroieth the ordinance of God lawfull magistracy and loyall obedieÌ„ce therefore not true It flieth the light and nourisheth darkenesse therefore not true It spreadeth it selfe and groweth by lies false testimonies slaunders dreames reuelations counterfeit holinesse and fained miracles therefore not true Deare Mother open your eies and regard your soule Be as you should be wise without wilfulnesse zealous without superstition discreet to discerne carefull to beware regarding God prince and countrie before any spirituall enchaunters whatsoeuer yea regarding your selfe and my deare father with vs your poore children who rise and fall with your well and ill doing I am no enemie that begge this of you but euen your owne bowells who haue liued in you and neuer desire to liue without you your child your own by God and nature bound vnto you O Mother behold my teares thinke of my heart prostrate before you vpon my face I beg it for his sake who gaue me to you whose loue is life whose trueth is ioy whose power and goodnesse is infinit to honour them that honour him Mine eies behold you for some worde of comfort cast me not away for Iesus sake without it M. Deare child arise let my silence now content thee It shall not be long ere we talke again Your father coÌ„meth towards vs whome I pray you goe meere and let him not knowe as yet of our speech When he was turned froÌ„ her towards his father shee caught the house vpon her and into her closet shee went with hast where all bewashing her selfe with teares shee brake out in this sort O my God and gratious father thou hast raised out of mine owne bodie a teacher for me that I might not scorne him and who by me receiued life concerning his bodie he by thee hath offred me life concerning my soule if I will receiue it I cannot I cannot denie his reasons I feele them coÌ„uince me I haue no excuse against such trueth and such a teacher but I am caught I am caught ô my God if I will not damnably breake out of thy net againe and runne desperatly headlong vpon mine owne destruction VVo is me that I so long haue erred from thy trueth harkning to the vaine inventions of mans braine Thy word I knowe is trueth and why should not I ground my selfe and soule vpon it Thy worde I heare is able to make me wise vnto saluation and so can no writing of man To the lavv and â—o the testimonie saith thy Prophet I nowe remember and if they speake not according to this it is because there is no light in theÌ„ VVho hath grounded vpon this rocke and hath miscarried yet my soule knoweth how popery abhorreth this lantarne we may not read it we may not goe to Church to heare it we may not haue it translated for vs but darknes darknes that is stil the mother of devotion though the holy ghost hath said Search the scriptures and be not children in vnderstanding Howe can this then be the true religion the truth the light that forbiddeth al meanes of knowledge They binde and burn I cannot denie the Saints of God bathe themselues in innoceÌ„t blood All is hypocrisie and vain glorie I see I see that ruleth amongst them O father strengthen me ô Sauiour pittie me ô holy ghost confirme me and finish this worke begunne in me to the eternall praise of thy name and the profitable mouing of others by my example that are abused and deceiued by these craftie iuglers and deceitfull workers as I was Amen Amen FINIS
this father that I named vnto you saith they wrot that which they deliuered and they wrote it by the will of God as not trusting tradition vnwritten and they wrote it to be for euer the ground of our faith noting that vnwritten tradition may not be the ground because it is vncertain and full of imperfection as I could shewe you if we were to speake of that matter Therefore seeing this which is written is certainly and assuredly that which they deliuered and we hold nothing but that which is agreeable to this which is written you see it is most plaine that we holde nothing but that which the Apostles themselues deliuered and so our faith the old faith which was from the beginning and first M. Surely if you holde nothing but that which is written it is certaine that that which was written was deliuered by the Apostles and so it followeth that you hold nothing but that which was deliuered by the Apostles and Prophets and therfore your faith olde indeede and not to be reiected And for tradition although we may be told that this and that was deliuered by the Apostles and their successours and so by them to theirs againe to this day yet I must needes confesse that is not so manifest and plaine as which is written neither doth it yeeld such contentment to my conscience But I can not tell what to say it is a sure and steadfast way to trust to that which is written rather then to that which is reported and yet I am loath â—o offend you shal giue me leaue to pause think more of it S. Yea deere Mother and with the hart of a dutifull child I say the father of our Lord Iesus Christ lighten the eyes of your vnderstanding in all things to the glory of his great name and your eternall comfort but be you assured in this that we hold nothing as needfull to our saluation but that which is written in expresse wordes or by sure and plaine collection and therefore make the consequence as the Lord shall direct you M. Howe then commeth it to passe that your religion is still called new new S. Even as I told you before it is one of Satans trickes to discredit trueth and hath in all times beene vsed of him But as then your selfe collected by that which I alleadged that it is not safe to be lead by tearmes and names without due considering howe iustly and truely they are giuen so I beseech you do here again and be not mooued with the name for questionles there can nothing be more spitefully spoken against the religion of God then to accuse it of noueltie as a matter lately found out For as there can be no change in God himselfe so ought there be no change in his religion Yet still I say Satan hath taken this course euen from the beginning to call trueth newe which indeede is not onely of greatest antiquitie but also froÌ„ euerlasting That vngratious blood thirstie Haman when he sought to procure the king Assuerus his dspleasure against the Iewes vsed this slaunder against them of noveltie telling the king that he had in his domion a kinde of people that vsed certaine newe lawes of their own c. Act. 1â— WheÌ„ Paul also began first to preach and expound the Gospel at Athens he was called a tidings-bringer of new Gods that is of a newe religion for said the Athenians may we not knowe of thee what newe doctrine this is Origen again telleth vs of Celsus that when he wrot of set purpofe against Christ to the ende he might scornefully scosse at the gospell he accused it of noueltie and said Orig. conâ—a Câ—lsum vvhat hath God after so many ages now at last bethought himselfe whose vile blasphemies that auncient father in his bookes written against him answereth Eusebius also saith that the Christian religion from the beginnnig for verie spite was called new and straunge Euseb l. 1 c. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sentence was giuen of condemnation that S. Audrewe should be crucified for teaching and enterprising a newe sect and taking away the religion of their Gods Shall we then bee mooued with this tearme and carried away with this name No God forbid These examples are a faire warning for vs to take heede of that lightnesse and rashnesse Let the deuil rage against trueth with what names God shall suffer him and his members yet this shall euer stand that the doctrine of the Church is elder then any Idolatrie or superstition of the Gentiles that the doctrine of the Gospell was preached in Paradise by God himselfe saying The seede of the vvoman shall bruise the serpentâ— head That the writings of Moses are elder the any writings of the Gentiles the doctrine of the Apostles elder then Popery or any other heresie and that we at this day hold nothing as I haue often said but what appeareth out of the Apostles owne writings alowed both by vs and our aduersaries to be their vvritinges to be their ovvne doctrine deliuered to the Church to be beleeued and for men and vvomen to be saued by M. Surely I see still it is not safe to be carried away vvith names and to beleeue all to be nevve vvhich is called so or all olde vvhich is named olde for so vve may be deceiued But yet in shevve of the vvorlde ours hath had a longer continuance then yours S. I must needes here once againe remember you what I meane by your religion to wit those pointes of doctrine onely wherein you differ from vs. And then I answer first that your religion euen in shewe of the world hath not had a longer continuance then ours especially for the principall points whereon wee stand as namely 1. the articles of our Creede which is a briefe and summe of catholik faith as Athanasius plainely witnesseth Symbol Athanas Haee est fides Catholica and the Councell of Trent confesseth 1. the acknowledgment of gods diuine law and the worshipping of god according to that law 3. the doctrine of repentance froÌ„ dead workes and of faith in Iesus Christ for the remission of sinne 4 the doctrine of the Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords supper which are the fundamentall points of out faith and religion and the rocke whereon we build our soules and Church and without controuersie of greater antiquity then those points of doctrine which we call popery Besides I answer although your religion in shew of the world were more ancient then ours yet that ought to be no disparagement to ours or aduaÌ„cemeÌ„t to yours for god afflicteth his church as pleaseth him maketh vs see that it is like the moone whervnto it is compared now growing now ful now waining we may not mesure truth by worldly couÌ„tenaÌ„ce but by that rule which neuer faileth the word of God and if our faith be that which there is taught warraÌ„ted the you haue heard which is the old true Catholik faith
the tares were cast into the good fielde Shall not a white head be taken so to be vnlesse the precise beginning of white haires be known A chinke in a wall is spied and mended but the beginning vsually vnknown When the Scribes and Pharises had corrupted religion what bookes doe we reade to be written against them How able were Ioseph Simeon Marie Anna c. to confute them Falshood is falshood though no man write against it And therefore let the doctrine of poperie he sifted whether it be sound or no and the beginning let goe of which yet you see what I haue said M. Sonne you haue said much and still I wish that one of vs would heare another more then we do I see I see it is profitable god hath commaunded meanes and liketh meanes S. Mother many a good man and woman that nowe liueth in ignorance woulde heare and reade but that they are so terrified in holes and corners by false charmers vnder the paine of excommunication not to doe it nor to conferre with any Yea they are often snared with an oath not to doe it and all to keepe them in darknesse because the hooded hauke is quietest and Sampson when his eies be out may be mocked and vsed at will but the Lord is able to touch his peoples hearts to thinke of their craft and cast from them such deceitfull workes which I beseech him to doe euen with speede For the impietie and boldnesse of these wicked charmers is great and worthily reprooued by S. Hierome who saith of some in his time that they did tantam sibi assumere authoritateÌ„ in Esai l. 9. c. 3. vt siue dextra docerent siue sinistra id est siue bona siue malanolint discipulos ratione discutere sed se praecessores sequi some did take such autority vpon them that whether they taught right or wrong good or badde they would not haue their auditours to examine it but to followe them M. Yea but it is a great matter sonne in our eyes that the Church of Rome hath alwaies beene a visible state maintaining that doctrine visible I say and still appearing and knowne whereas your church before Luthers time either was not at all or was hidde as some say and your doctrine not receiued by publike authoritie S. But good mother you know trueth is trueth although the whole world were set against it And therefore still I wish your eye bent not vpon the fauour of the world for that is commonly against the good and for the badde but vpon the face of almightie God his good pleasure and the rule thereof his worde And then for answere to this obiected which seemeth so strong a bulwarke in the iudgement of many Papists â—â—e â— church 〈◊〉 nor alwaies â—â—sible first I say that the true church is not alwaies visible in the worlde as they take visible that is glorious in credit and fauour supported by authority of worldly powers so that all people may know whether to resort vnto it For the Church is either Catholike 1. vniuersall or particular The Catholike or vniuersall church cannot be seene and therfore we beleeue it as an article of our faith Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam Symb. Apost I beleeue that there is an holy Catholike Church not as some would haue it I giue credit to the church and beleeue what soeuer it teacheth for then it should be Credo Ecclesiae not Credo Ecclesiam Sentent l. 3. distinct 2â— There is great difference saith P. Lumbard following S. Austen betwixt Credere Deum Credere Deo and Creaere in Deum the first is to beleeue that there is a God the second to giue credance vnto God and to beleeue all that tâ—u which he speaketh the third to rely vpon god and to put our confidence in him for protection and blessing So doubtlesse may I say that there is an apparent difference betwixt Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam Credere Ecclesiae Caetholicae and Creaere in Ecclesiam Catholicam the first is to be assuredly perswaded and to beleeue that there is a Catholike Church which is the meaning of the article as the very phrase of speach sheweth and the other articles following Credo communionem Sanctorum I beleeue that there is a communion of Saints Credo remissionem peccatoruÌ„ I beleeue that there is a remission of sinnes Credo carnis resurrectionem I beleeue that there is a resurrection of the flesh c. The second Credere Ecclesiae catholicae is to giue credit vnto the Catholike Church and to embrace as trueth whatsoeuer the Church shall propound vnto vs which can not be the sense of the article except we will both confound these two phrases Credere Eccslesiam and Credere Ecclesiae so accurately distinguished by the master of the sentences and S. Augustin and make the wordes of men equall with Gods word The third Credere in Ecclesiam Catholicam is wholly to depend vpon the Catholike Church which we cannot make the sense of the article without violence to the wordes and great blasphemie to God Thus much by the way and by your gentle patience good mother of this article and the true meaning of it in generall because the mistaking thereof hath misled some into errour Now to returne seeing we beleeue the vniuersall or Catholike Church it followeth that it can not be seene â—eb 11.1 For faith as the Apostle writeth is the ground of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seene Not seene I say againe and intreat you to marke the worde And that a particular Church is not alwaies seene the storie of Elias prooueth pregnantly who could not see one and therefore was wery of his life â—ing 19.18 whereas God had kept vnto himselfe euen then when he complained and in that place where he liued yea in the middest of that people of whome he complained 7000. that had not bowed their knees vnto Ball. What may we thinke of these 7000. among the tenne trikes of Israel were they not Gods people worshipping him in spirit and in truth or is not the nuÌ„ber sufficiet to make a church Surely the number might well make seuen glorious particular Churches Rom. 1â— and the Apostle saieth of them first that God had kept them to himselfe secondly that they were his people thirdly that he knewe them before to wit in his eternall councell and almighty God himselfe to his prophet acknowledged them as his beloued and promised his protection vnto them that they should be safely kept Reasons 1. Reg. c. 19 1â—.17 18. I suppose sufficient both for number and weight to prooue that God had his church in that place and at that selfe same time when where the prophet Elias complained for want of a Church and fellowe members to worship God with him O if so many so deare vnto god at one time in one countrie worshipping the true God truly by the testimony of
A CONFERENCE BETVVIXT A MOTHER A DEVOVT RECVSANT AND HER Sonne a zealous protestant seeking by humble and dutifull satisfaction to winne her vnto the trueth and publike worship of god established nowe in England Gathered by him whose hearts desire is that all may come to the knowledge of God and be saued 2. Corinth 11.1 Would to God you coulde a little tollerate my foolishnesse yea indeede beare with me For I am zealous ouer you with a godly zeale PRINTED BY IOHN LEGAT Printer to the Vniversitie of Cambrige 1600. TO THE REVErend father in God my VERY GOOD LORD GERVASE by the prouidence of God Lord Bishop of Worcester WHat maketh me willing to publish this pamplet your L. will easily iudge by the argument what helpes I haue had therein so many as haue hard your Lorships publike exhortations or priuate conferences in matter of religion will as easily coniecture it being indeede nothing els but a gleaning of your L. great haruest and a cluster of your owne vintage And therefore what cause I haue to sue for your honourable approbation I neede not proclaime vnto the world saue that I must needes confesse my selfe by many many bonds more then I may well make knowne to be tyed in all duty vnto your L. to whome next vnder almightie God and her sacred Maiestie I owe whatsoeuer I haue besides this corruptible man I may not particularize your honourable and innumerable fauours least I exceede the limits of a preface and breake the bonds of sobrietie and so incurre the iust displeasure of your Lordship Only I craue pardon herein to acknowledge that as once in the Vniuersity by your Lordships happie hand I was brought into the sheepfolde of the great sheapheard so in your honours seruice I haue beene led continually by the same gratious hand in and out to the greene pastures and pleasant streames of euer liuing water and learned that which may stead me all my life long and in the worlde to come for euer it I be not wanting vnto my selfe Wherefore may it please your Lordship to vouchsafe me your wonted honourable fauour to couer whatsoeuer my defects in this attempt and to accept this testimonie of my true and due affection to your L. I shall be still more and more bounde and I hope alwaies mindfull to bowe the knees of my heart vnto the highest whose recompence is a sufficient reward for the continuaÌ„ce of his gratious eye vpon you and all your honourable affaires for euer Your L. humble chaplaine Francis Sauage To the Reader LActantius for eloquence in the publishing of gods holy truth writeth eloqueÌ„tly Licèt veritas posset sine eloquentiâ defendi vt est à multis saepè defensa tamen claritate ac nitore sermonis illustranda quodaÌ„modo disserenda est vt potentius in animos influat Wherein he seemeth somewhat to censure all those that want this skill but by a little transposition we may keepe his meaning and turne the sentence thus Although its meete with perspicuitie and purity of speech to illustrate and set forth the trueth and so as it were 〈◊〉 104 with skilfull hand to sowe it that it may more forcibly flowe into the mindes of men yet may it be maintained well without eloquence and ornament of wordes which is a sufficient motiue to all honest mindes which wish well to the prosperitie of Sion to put to their helping hands though weake and feeble in the spirituall building of Gods house Yet a greater incouragemeÌ„t is that which S. Hierom saith Fides pura non quaerit strophas argumenta verborum The purity of faith hunteth not after coulourable sleightes and wilâ—e wordy arguments But Tertullians speech in some sort enioyneth this service and exacteth it as a dutie Veritas amat Spiritus sancti figuram â—â—ra Valent Orientem amat nihil erubescit nisi solummodò abscondi The trueth loues the light the morning starre breaking of the day shee is abashed at nothing saue only the couer and night of darkenes and obscurity And sure howe homely soeuer shee seeme in the eies of some and in regard of the habite wherewith shee is some times attired yet beeing alwaies in her selfe like the kings daughter all glorious within and in the estimate of the wise full of maiestie and grace and iustified euer of all her children shee commeth forth like the Sunne rising as a bridegrome out of his chamber and as a giant readie to runne his course Wherefore gentle Reader accept in good part I pray thee this my seruice and goodwill woone by these inducements and if this man of might meete thee in any corner of this simple cotage looke not vpon the outward earthen walls but cast thine eie within vpon the prince himselfe yeelding thine homage of reuerence and obedience euer due Fran. Sauage August de Trin. lib. 1. cap. 2. 3. Nec pigebit me sicubi haesito quaerere nec pudebit sicubi erro discere Proinde quisquis haec legit vbi paritèr certus est pergat mecum vbi paritèt haesitat quaerat mecum vbi errorem suum cogno scit redeat adme vbi meum reuocet me Ita ingreaiamur simul charitatis viam Psal 104. teÌ„â—entes adeum de quo dictum est Quaerite facieÌ„ eius semper A DIALOGVE BETVVIXT A Mother and her sonne being a student in the vniversity come ouer into the country to see his friends profitable to be be read of all that desire to be satisfied touching matter of religion and comming to Church M. COme Sonne you shall goe with me to your fathers farme this faire day is very fit to walke abroad and moderate walking is comended of all as good phisicke S. I will gladly attend you Mother both in regard of your pleasure and this fit opportunity for the exercise of our bodies which is the best phisicke that many a poore scholler hath in the vniuersity but I hope the farme you goe vnto is not far off because you speake of modâ—rate walking M What knowe you not your fathers houses this is the good that cometh of your long absence your fathers care to send you so farre away which hath much grieued me and in which respect I haue often requesâ—â—â— him â—o send for you home S Good Mother I see and feele to my 〈…〉 I haue euer done your tendâ—◠〈◊〉 and bowels of louing kindenâ—â—â—â—â—wards me and I must needes acknowledge my fathers great loue euen in this which you seeme to mislike that he sent me to the vniuersity for sure he did it in his speciall care ouer me and in wisdome for my safety M. Safety I pray you from what would your mothers eye haue done you any harme S. I would be very loath mother to offend you and therefore if I haue spoken any thing vnadvisedly I humbly craue pardon M. Nay sonne we haue not beene so long a sunder to fall out at first and therefore I will not be offended
Tit. S. Hierome considering well the place before named in the Acts saieth Quod magis mirum sit c. And that wee may the more maruaile we may once againe read this place of the Acts of the Apostles where wee finde that the Christian and Ecclesiastical discipline was euen then of wicked meÌ„ called Heresie Many others haue witnessed as much therefore since it is no new thing but the very custome of Satan euer I trust you see there is great cause not to be carried away with mens speaches whose eies be blinded by the god of this worlde but with true and sound proofes If they cannot shew that we haue fallen away from Christ nor from his Apostles nor from the prophets if we beleeue as surely we doe all that is written in them maintain nothing as necessarie to salvation but what may be plainely shewed to be taught vs by them how iniurious and shamfull yea fearefull a dealing it is neuerthelesse to call vs Heretiques good mother consider in your selfe Me thinkes in this place S. Austens speech somtimes to Petilian the Donatist is good who said thus contra Petil. 2. cap. 85. Vtrum nos schismatici sumus an vos nec ego nec tu sed Christus interrogetur vt indicet Ecclesiam suam Whether of vs be scismatiques or heretiques aske not of either of vs but let Christ be asked for vs both that he may shewe vs his owne Church that is let the scriptures bee searched and let them declare the trueth which they will doe M. Sonne for your first point that it is not safe to iudge of things by names because Gods truth hath bin called heresy as you haue shewed and I see it plainely I ioyne with you and take it for a good caveat hereafter to beware but for your second point that therefore you should not be counted heretiques because you say you holde nothing disagreeable to the scriprures I cannot approoue it because heretiques as I haue heard at al times haue boasted of scripture as you doe S. Good mother I am very glad you perceiue how truth hath bene slandered with the name of heresie Scripture and therefore how fit it is in matters of salvation not to be mooued by speches of men but euer to search seeke for due true proofe and for the second point I trust God shall make you see it also if it please you to goe along with me True it is which you say you haue heard that heretiques alleadge scripture and you knowe that the diuell himselfe who is as bad as any heretique 〈◊〉 4. alleadged scriptures but what then is not it therfore a safe way to cleaue to the scriptures and only vpon them to ground our faith yes surely which shall appeare euen by this practise of Satan being duly considered for such is the skill of that old subtill serpent that as he knoweth to fitte his temptations to the humour and disposition of them whome he tempteth so he vseth to set vpon men by those perswasions which he is most likely to seduce them by as to Eve in paradice he promised the knowledge of good and euill 〈◊〉 3. â—â—od 7. 〈◊〉 Chron. 18.11 to obstinate Pharaoh he presented lying wonders to wicked Ahab delighting in lies he came in the month and consent of many false prophets to the superstitious and hypocriticall Iewes he pretended the temple of the Lord â—er 7.4 â—ct 19.27 17. â—â— to the populous ancient heathen vniuersalitie and antiquity to our Sauiour the written word of God which he thought if any thing would preuaile with him So the diuell in alleadging onely scripture against our Sauiour turneth himselfe into an angell of light and would seeme to doe that which is most holy in it selfe most acceptable vnto god most comfortable to men most sure for their safegard and protection which doth not diâ—credit the triall of truth in points of faith by scripture only but rather countenance and confirme it because it argueth the disposition and setled affection of our blessed Sauiour towards these sacred writings that he made them the tower of his defence the rocke of his safegarde the foundation of his whole obedience accounted nothing a ground of faith and dutie but onely scripture and therefore that we likewise should cleaue fast to the written word of God turning neither to the right nor left hand but walking constantly in the obedience thereof Wherefore though this alleadging of scripture be a worke of darknesse both because he did misâ—alleadge it leaving out a principall part of the sentence and so corrupting it and also for that he did it as a lying spirit to deceiue Yet to alledge the scripture rightly with an vpright minde to a good ende shall euer be as the dutie of Gods people so the shield and buckler of their defence yea the crowne and glorie of the children of light whereby they shall resemble their head our blessed Saviour Christ Iesus who as you may see in the gospel gaue not ouer his holde because the deuill abused it but with scripture againe he answered him and so both iustified himselfe and confounded his aduersary which also hath beene the manner good mother of the church of God at all times As namely at the first most holy and vncorrupt Councell helde at Hierusalem by the Apostles themselues 〈◊〉 15. where the question debated was whether the beleeuing Gentiles could be saued onely by faith in Christ Iesus without circumcision and the obseruation of the lawe of Moses as Paul and Barnabas affirmed and preached against certaine who came from Iudea and taught the contrary For the deciding whereof in that most catholike and orthodoxall Councel S. Peter alleadged the testimony of God himselfe who sent him to the Gentiles Cornelius and his friendes to preach vnto them not the lawe of Moses but the word of the gospel that they might beleeue and blessed his ministerie with happy successe giuing vnto them the holy ghost and purifying their hearts by saith which he calleth Gods testimony God saith he bare witnesse vnto them giuing them the holy ghost c 〈◊〉 8. â— And S. Iames in his sentence alleadged the written word of God both to confirme that which S. Peter had deliuered and to ende the controuersie 〈◊〉 14. Symeon saith he hath declared howe god first visited the Gentiles tooke of them a people vnto his name and to this agree the wordes of the Prophets as it is written c. Likewise at the famous Counsell of Nice the worthy Emperour Constantine whome god raised vp to ende the persecutions of his Church and to giue it rest saide thus to the bishops assembled there Theod. lib. 1. cap. 7. Evangelicae Apostolicae literae c. the writings of the Evangelists and Apostles and the sayings of the olds Prophets doe clearely instruct vs what iudgement we ought to haue of the meaning and will of God Therefore laying
aside all contention let vs seeke out of those heauenly oracles the assoiling of our questions And of the Arrian herericks who in that counsel were ouerthrown another saith thus Explicantes sacras scripturas illâ—s euertimus Socr. l. 1. c. 6. by opening and expounding the holy scriptures we overthrowe them The like rule was followed at the counsell helde at Constantinople against the hereticke Macedonius that denied the divinitie of the holy ghost neuer mooue question hereof saith Athanasius ad Serapion but learne of the holy scriptures for the onely proofes that you shall there finde are sufficient And in another place the same father saith Scripturae sufficiunt adveritatis instructionem siue institutionem â—â—ra Genâ—es â—â—l Idola the scriptures are sufficient to instruct vs in the trueth Marke I pray you the word Sufficiunt In the other two Councels also of Ephesus and Chalcedon â—vagrius we read of the same course all things were concluded by the wordes of the Evangelists and Apostles The auncient father Origen saith Rom. lib. 10.16 Vnde quà m propè periculis illi sunt c. See and consider in what daunger they be that haue no care to read the holy scriptures for by the same scriptures onely the iudgement of this triall must be allowed ierom hom 1. And in another place Necesse est nobis scripturas sanctas in testimonium vocare sensus quippe nostri enarrationes sine iis testibus non habent fidem VVe must needes call to witnesse the holy scriptures for our iudgements and expositions without those witnesses carry no credit a notable saying if it please you to marke it And with him S. Austen fully agreeth when he saith 〈◊〉 Naâ— Grat. â— Solis Canonicis scipturis sine vlla recusatione consensum debeo Onely to the Canonicall scriptures do I owe my consent without gainsaying The same father againe when he disputed against Petilian the Donatist â—â—c Vnit. Ecâ—les c. 3. said Let not these vvordes be heard betweene vs I say or you say but let vs rather speake in this wise thus saith the Lord. Auferantur de medio chartae nostrae procedat in medium codex dei contra liâ— Pâ— l. 3 c. 6. Away with our bookes and let Gods booke come in place Siue enim de Christo siue de Ecclesia siue de quacunque aliâre quae pertinet adfidem vitamque nostram non dicamsi nos c. For whether it be of Christ or of his Church or of any thing els what soeuer pertaining either to our life or to our faith I will not say if I my selfe but if an angel from heauen shall teach vs otherwise then we haue receiued in the bookes of the law and in the gospel holde him accursed This is the proofe saith he againe quae nec falli nec fallere potest de peccat mâ—â— remist l. 1. c. 2â— which can neither deceiue nor be deceiued To the verie same effect speake all the fathers I assure you if it were needfull to repeat their wordes I beseech you saith S Chrisostom weigh not what this man or that thinketh in 2. Cor. hoâ—â—â— but touching all things search the scriptures S. Hierom saith Quod de scripturis autoritatem non habet eadem â—acilitate contemnitur qua probatur in 23. Mat. that which is not warranted by the scriptures may as easily be contemned as alleadged And so the rest of the fathers particularly euery one and therefore good Mother weigh it and note it that albeit both heretiques deuills abuse the scriptures by alleadging them to euill endes yet is it the true way and the onely way to be resolued by and to finde rest for our consciences in all matter of controuersie touching either faith or manners so taken so taught so held by Christ by his Apostles and by all the godly fathers and worthy approoued Councels in the world M. I must confesse that if the scriptures bee rightly applyed they are indeede the sure foundation that ought to be stood vpon but howe shall that appeare that you apply them rightly more then those whome you acknowledge heretiques which likewise haue alleadged them S. Good mother giue me leaue to make make much of that which I gaine from you in this conference and to recken it vp as deere vnto my verie soule for the duty I owe you and for the desire I haue that the trueth may be revealed vnto you This therefore now you see and confesse that although all the hereticks in the world and all the diuels in hell should alledge scripture and abuse it yet hath it not bin giuen of God in vaine but serueth as a sure ground of our faith and actions euery thing beeing alowable that is consonant vnto it and that alwaies faultie which is contrarie vnto it and therefore that we ought not to be beaten from it by any deuise of Satan but stedfastly to stick vnto it and euer to depend vpon it as the only sure ancher of our soules in like manner as all those worthy men and Councels before mentioned haue done For what quietnes to my minde like to this Thou Lord hast commanded me thus to beleeue and thus to doe therefore I so beleeve and so doe Interpretatioâ— of scripture Only you sticke nowe at the right application of them and aske howe shall you know that Surely mother you shall know it euen to your full contentment if you will doe as others before you godly and holy persons both men women haue done lib. 83. quaest 〈◊〉 Saint Austen saith Solet circumstantia Scripturarum illuminare sententiam The circumstance of the scriptures is vvout to giue light and open the meaning thereof in Esai c. 19 Saint Hierome saith Moris est scripturarum obscuris manifesta subnectere It s the manner of the scriptures after harde thinges to ioyne other things that be plaine Tertullian saith Opertet secundum plura intelligi pauciora The fewer things must be expounded by the moe Hil. de Trin. 9. S. Hilary saith Intelligentia dictorum ex causa dicendi fumenda est the vnderstanding of things spokeÌ„ must be taken froÌ„ the cause of speaking theÌ„ expraepositis consequeÌ„tibus by things going before and following after S Cyril saith Cyr. Thâ—s l. â— c. 2. whensoeuer we woulde vnderstande any place of scripture we must consider three things the time when it was written the person that writ and to whome or of whom and the matter it selfe Many such good rules haue the fathers which as you see greatly help in the thing you desire and which if we vse no doubt we shall finde as they found then haue we the gratious promise of gods holy spirit if we aske it and what a sure guide is that the performance of which promise see in the Gospell c. 24. then opened he their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the scriptures See it in
that good woman Lydia the purple seller 〈◊〉 16. whose heart was also opened This blessed gift doth the Apostle think of when he wisheth to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdome and revelation that the eyes of their vnderstanding might be opened â—hes 1.17 lightned that they might knowe c. So to the Philippians and to the Colossians and of this speaketh Elihu in the booke of Iob â—lip 1.9 â—lost 1.9 There is a spirit in man but the inspiration of the almighty giueth vnderstanding Iob 32.8 This did king Dauid knowe and therefore asked this heauenly gift by earnest prayer often saying Teach me O Lord teach me thy statutes teach me thy waies open mine eyes that I may beholde the wonderfull things in thy lawe Origen saith Orandus est Deus vt aperiat librum obsignatum we must beseech God by prayer to open the booke that is sealed The Lord is no respect of persons but as he hath done he will doe and heare the desires of his children that wish to know his will This is the way mother this is the way that neuer failed any who vsed it neither will it faile you But you shall see by it the true and right applying of the scriptures howsoeuer others abuse and mis-construe them In a worde therefore marke I beseech you that we doe not affirme all cases of doubt to be by manifest and open wordes plainely expressed in scripture for so there should neede no exposition but we say and affirme that there is no case in religion necessarie to Gods worship or mans salvation so darke and doubtful but it may necessarily be either prooued or disprooued by true collection and conference in scripture M Sonne I marke your speech well and your words fall not to the ground yet I hope you will confesse that our men doe well in regarding the doctours as they doe S. Surely mother I doe confesse the doctours of the Church worthy of more regard then is giuen them sometimes by Romish Catholickes Doctoures And you see by my alleadging of them that I greatly regard them But seeing you haue mentioned this matter I doe hartely intreat you to marke a fewe things in that behalfe First that they are not Domini sedduces nostri Not our Lords but our leaders And therfore S. Augustin saith Other writers or fathers besides the holy scriptures I read in this sort that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I wil not thinke it true because they haue thought so but because they are able to perswade me so either by Canonicall writers or els by some likely reason Likewise againe This kind of writings meaning the holy doctoures must be reade not with necessitie to beleeue each thing but with libertie to iudge each thing For we may not consent to the bishops notwithstanding they be Catholike â—nit Eccl. c. if they iudge contrarie to the holy Canonicall scriptures This is the right credit of holy fathers they are not the trueth of God it selfe but onely witnesses vnto the trueth no more haue they they theÌ„selues euer desired no lesse ought we euer to giue them Heare I pray you the words of the same father againe we receiue not the disputations or writings of any men be they neuer so Catholicke or praise-worthy Fortunat. â—â—t 111. as we receiue the Canonicall scriptures but that sauing their reuerence we may well reprooue or refuse some things in their writings if it happen we finde they haue otherwise though then the trueth may beare them out such am I in the writings of others and such would I wish others to be in mine He writeth to S. Hierom againe to the same effect Non puto frater ep 19. c. My brother I doe not thinke you would haue vs so to read your bookes as if they were written by the Apostles and Prophets To the like purpose writeth Tertullian of himselfe and the rest wherein their holy modestie is worthy great praise for euer they tooke not vpon them to be Lords but leaders and to that ende the Lord hath giuen theÌ„ as excellent lights to his church So of Counsels S. Austen telleth vs that the former are reiected by the later c. Likewise Panormitan saith vve ought to giue more credit to on lay man then to an whole councell and to the Pope if he bring better authority and more reason This is my first obseruatioÌ„ in this matter of the doctours My secoÌ„d is this which I humbly pray you to marke that as scriptures haue beene abused by heretiques so haue fathers and therefore if we must giue ouer the one for mis-applyings so must we the other also for the same reason The Arrian heretiques alleadged Origens bookes for their defence and safegard Socr. l. 4. c. Concil Ch act 2. p. 732 the heretique Eutiches saide I haue read the writings of the father Saint Cyprian as also of other holy writers and of the holy father Saint Athanasius Another of his sect cryed this is my faith according to the exposition of 318 fathers The Nestorian heretiques alleadged the Counsel of Nice p. â—â—7 and not to weary you with many Dioscorus the heretique cried out in the open Councell of Chalcedon 〈◊〉 1. p. 767. Ego habeo testimonia sanctorum patrum I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregory Cyrill I varie not from them in any point I am thrown forth and banished with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrine I haue their iudgement vttered not by chaunce or vnaduisedly but remaining expressed in their bookes Therefore you see good mother that heretiques haue cried as well fathers fathers as scriptures scriptures and yet neither the one nor the other for this cause to be reiected My third obseruation might be of counterfeit and young yesterday fathers alleadged by papists and of small credit or reuerence giuen to fathers by them that boast thus of fathers when they please whereof I assure you we haue notable examples with many things moe but that I feare to be troublesome vnto you M. Yet sonne seeing our faith was long before yours me thinks the fathers should rather make for vs then for you S. And why say you not so of the scriptures which were many yeares before any of the fathers Surely if your faith were before ours Old faith as well scriptures as fathers would giue on your side and indeed both would make for you New faith the fathers desiring to holde nothing but that they iudged agreeable to scripture which euer they make the rule and ground of faith and trueth and not their own writings as you haue seene But good Mother they abuse you and many moe that tell you your faith that is as nowe you meane the Romish faith was before ours for I assure you it is not so but very newe and younge in comparison of ours M. What our faith newe Sonne yours old Alas I see these
indeed and therfore to be receiued helde and defended though for a thousand yeares the Lord hath made it a straunger in this or that place to punish thereby the sinnes of a kingdome or countrie Vetus consuetudo non praeiudicat veritate Olde custome doth not preiudice the truth saith good S. Austen Nec dici debet â—ug De Ciuit. l. 10. c. 32. quare modò quare sero quoniam mittentis consilium non est humauo ingenio penitrabile Neither may we say why commeth it now Good Mother marke it why commeth it so late for the councell of God that sent it is vnsearchable to the wisdome of man Thus speake the Papists in these daies where was your religion before Luther where hath it beene this many hundred yeares had God no Church till now c. But S. Austen telleth theÌ„ they speake not well they ought not to say so for Gods councell is known to himselfe and we cannot reach vnto it Religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanaa sed numine nec quo die sedquid colere caeperis iutueri convenit quodenim verum est serum non est The autority of religion must be weighed by god not by time we must coÌ„sider not vpon what day but vvhat thing we began to worship the thing that is true is neuer to late The Iesuits tell vs wonders of their conuerting the Indians and other people to the Romish faith and woulde they like that those nations should say where hath this religion beene all this while woulde they not say as Arnobius saith that which is true should euer be vvelcome Arnob. coâ—â— Genâ—â— howe long soeuer the time of darkenesse hath beene Why doe they then teach any to stand vpon such questions against the Gospel nowe preached Our Sauiour saith If I speake the trueth vvhy doe you not beleeue me and that is the good issue indeede to consider the matter whether it bee true or no which is euer found by the weight of the sanctuary the word of God Certenly we teach no false religion but offer the trueth for issue praying that if it be found true by the touchstone mentioned it may be entertained and so much the more hartely by how much shee hath beene long from home For so wee deale with our friendes and doe not vtterly denie them if they haue beene long away Certenly we haue planted no newe religion but renewed the olde I meane in respect of certen pointes corrupted by your men that was vndoubtedly founded and vsed by the Apostles of Christ and other holy fathers in the primitiue Church of this long late time by meane of the multitude of Romish traditions and vanities hath beene drowned with traditions fantasies though painted with colour of antiquity and continuance yet are new vaine and naught M. I cannot deny sonne but it is true that you say there may be vetustas erroris an antiquity of error for you know I haue some latin not yet forgotten and â—here may be a late beginning of truth in some particular place but it followeth not that either the error is truth because it hath bin continued long or the trueth error because in that place it was receiued but lately I like not this kind of reasoning whosoeuer vseth it for it is not sound neither stateth the conscience S. Good mother I know well you vnderstand the latin tongue and therefore haue I repeated many testimonies in latin to giue you your due praise this ability being not ordinary in women And what you say I thanke God hartely for praying you to consider that there be men on your side which so reason and so say Popery hath bin in england so long therefore it is truth and the gospel was reuiued but of late therfore it is error heresy apostasie and what not Surely mother you haue touched the quick such arguing is loose and staieth not the coÌ„â—cience it followeth not but is very childish Men may be called at the eleuenth houre yet as truly called as they who were brought into the vineyard at the very first and as fully shall be regarded if they come then The Lord may doe with his own as pleaseth him M. Yea but what say you sonne to our baptisme for that is a matter of moment we were all baptised into the Romish faith and vowed at the font to continue in the same Howe then shall we start from it without breaking our vow and offending both god and man In what faitâ— baptized S. Deare mother here first I wish a lattise window in my breast that the ioy of my heart for these your questions so fit and pertinent I hope profitable might appeare vnto you for they lead vs as it were by the hand to the consideration of those things which may fully satisfie any Christian heart And who can tell what the Lord of mercy wil doe who willeth not he death of a sinner but would haue al meÌ„ saued come to the knowledge of the trueth The Lord Iesus Christ who is the true sheapheard samp bishop of our soules giue a blessing to our conference Then to your doubt so well and to so good purpose moued I answere thus God forbid that either all or any of vs had beene baptized into the Romish faith You are deceiued and those cursed charmers that whisper such things to Gods people and cast such stumbling blockes before their eyes to turne theÌ„ out of the right way shall answer the Lord for so doing You are taught and told that all those who were baptised in those times when popery was receiued by the realme of England were baptized into the Romish faith which is not so wherein appeared the great mercy and goodnesse of God in preseruing the Sacrament of entrance and admission into Gods Church pure and sound concerning the substance of it euen in the greatest darkenesse and authority of popery This therefore I pray you vnderstand that we were all baptized in the time of popery into the same faith which nowe wee hold and baptize children in that is into the faith of the 12. articles for thus said the priest then in latin Credis in deum patrem c. as the minister doth now in English Doest thou beleeve in God the father almighty c. And the godfathers and godmothers answered then in the name of the child Credo as we doe nowe answere All this I stedfastly beleeve Then said the priest in latin againe as the minister doâ—h nowe in english wilâ— thou be baptized in this faith they answered then for the childe volo we nowe that is my desire Then tooke the pâ—â—â—st water and saide in laâ—in Ego baptizo te in nomine â—atris c. we say the same in engâ—â—â— I baptize thee in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost And this beeing the substance of baptisme see howe the Lord preserued it euen then pure and holy and all one was baptisme then
you tell where or vnder what Pope or Emperour papistrie first began and what Churches then complained of it S. Good Mother your questions still are to good purpose who firsts 〈◊〉 Rome to â—â—cline 〈◊〉 for this is an high point with diuers popish writers and these thinke they haue plunged vs when they haue made this demaunde But I am nowe comforted with assurance of your readinesse to heare what on our side is answered which is thus That if these false perswaders thinke as appeareth by this question they doe that the Church standing possessed of a true religion there cannot arise a false but that some either many or fewe must rebuke it it is not so in such errours as creepe in at the beginning by hypocrisie by a great shewe of holinesse as poperie did but onely in grosse and apparent errours it is so Nowe poperie is called of the Apostle a ministerie and why because it is not open to euery eye but vnder a colour and cloake of holinesse so conueieth it selfe into mens hearts and into the worlde that it is not obserued and noted of many and scarce by any Againe as a building maketh no shewe till it be aboue the ground so this synagogue for a time was not noted when yet the worke men laboured harde to raise it and builde it Thirdly wee are admonished and tolde even of this errour that so slie so colourable and so hypocriticall it should be as the very elect thereby if it were possible should be deceiued Fourthly in reason and experience wee see and knowe that tares in the corne are not noted till they bee come vppe the grasse is not seene growing but when it is growen And therefore to set this down that no false religion no errour of heresie may creepe into the church but at the very first it must be noted of some is not true especially of this errour of poperie for it entred not all at once but by degrees in diuers ages and these degrees so small that they they could not more be discerned then the grasse growing The hypocriticall shewe of devotion and good intent letted greatly the woolfe in a sheepes skinne may deceiue Again it is well knowen that these primitiue times were greatly exercised with open grosse and apparent heresies seeking the ouerthrowe of the faith directly manifestly as of Ebion Ceâ—inthus Arrius and others Diuers of the defenders whereof were of great giftes and so their doings were dangerous vpon which the fathers eyes were bent that it was not possible to obserue little ones creeping in so colourably as I haue saide and so hypocritically If any did obserue somewhat then yet neuer thought they that such small declinings would grow to such an issue as nowe we see and therefore were lesse carefull to write of them and if they did write so many and so great haue bene the losses of bookes since that time by persecutions and troubles That the bishops of Rome did vse to burâ— all bookes crossing their errours vide Concil Rom. Concil Constant sesâ— 8. Câ—cil Trident. Bellar. Tom 1. contr 5. l. 3. de laicis c. 20. and sundry confusions in the world that well they might perish and bee lost Moreouer the bishops of Rome beeing in credit with the Emperours had euer oppertunitie to suppresse deface and alter writings roules and recordes against them as they thought good whose conscieÌ„ces could brooke such dealings well inough as we see by experience in the councell of Nice falsified by them to their perpetuall shame Finally the credit of diuers good bishops of Rome at the first did so sticke in the mindes of men that for their sakes the rest a great while after were the better thought of and not suspected as they deserued who indeede succeeded in place but not in vertue and pietie M. Sonne these be good reasons I confesse why the beginning might not be so well marked but yet if it had beene so false a religion as now is saide it could not but haue beene marked of some S. Good mother if what I haue saide bee well weighed it doth fully prooue what I vndertake namely that errour may creepe in vnder colour of deuotion by small degrees in the time of greater grosse heresies and not be noted for a time But if so much may not suffice we answere further to your question that the misterie of Papistrie beeing antichristianity began euen in the Apostles times Claudius being the Emperour of Rome and so continued increasing vntill the time of Sigismund who procured the councell of Constance in which the lay people were robbed of the cup. So haue you the Emperour vnder whome it beganne But for the pope we vse to craue pardon id we cannot shewe him certainly because then there were three popes no man could tell which was the right but euerie man spake as he was affected to one of them And for coÌ„plaints against it the stories make it well knowen that in the time of Seuerus Emperour Victor bishop of Rome bewraying an ambitious desire of superiority ouer other bishopps Euseb l. 5. c. 25 Irenaeus the ancient father Bishop then of Lions Polycrates and many others reprooued him Afterward in the daies of Theodosius Honorius and Arcadius the bishops of Rome Innocentius Bonifacius Sozimus Anastasius and Caelestine vsurping more openly shamfully forging the decree of the Nicene councel were reprooued and complained of by the bishops of Africa in open councell the forgerie detected and decrees made that none in Africa should appeale to any bishops ouer the sea and that the bishop of the first â—ea should not bee called prince of priestes or by any such name of pride but onely bishop of the first sea After this againe when Iohn of Constantinople in the daies of Mauritius vsurped the title of vniversall bishop Gregory the bishop of Rome reprooueth it himselfe and with such vehemency of words ratleth him vp for it as no more can be said against that point of popery Then was Mauritius cruelly murdered by his seruant Phocas and the Empire giuen to Phocas vnder whome Bonifacius of Rome gotte that proud title But the Church of Rauenna with others complained of such pride and would not be subiect for many yeares Many more haue cried out as they could and noted this falling away from truth and pietie to pride and antichristianity But good Mother ponder with your selfe how needles this is to be stood vpon where there is euidence of fault and falshood Doe we not account it folly when we see tares in the fielde to denie they be tares vnlesse we knowe who sowed them what day and houre c. If an house be on fire wee seeke to quench it and stand not to aske who set it one fire A theife taken with the manner is punished Popery compared with the doctrine of the Apostles appeareth to bee tares and we offer that issue if we prooue it what though we knowe not when
Constantine the Emperour maketh mention in his time of Christian Churches in Britane â—od l. 1. c. 10. This was about the yeare 330. S. Hilary in his time intituleth his letter Clericis Tolosanis provinciarum Britannicarum episcopis L. de Synod To the Clergi of Tolosa and to the bishops of Britane This was about the yeare 360. S. Chrisostome of his time saieth m. quod â—ristus sit de Et in sulae Britannicae extra hoe mare sitae in ipso Oceano positae senserunt virtâ—tem verbi dei The Islands of Britane beeing in the very Ocean and farre out of this our sea haue felt the power of Gods vvord This he wrotte about anno 400. Theodoret saith Huic fidei consenserunt ouâ—nes Ecclesiae quaeque in Hispania sunt Histor l. 4. c. quaeque in Britannia To this faith haue agreed all the Churches both of Spaine and Britane What can be more plaine and more fully prooued if we be not wilfull Now all these fathers and writers liued sundrie yeares before the ariuall of Austine the monke and his fellowes Therfore they by no meanes coulde bee the first planters and publishers of the faith in this land Gildas writeth that in the time of Tiberius this land was Christian Hist Aâ—g l. 2 c. 2. Beda writeth that in his time and almost a thousand yeares after Christ Easter was kept here in England after the manner of the East Church in the full moone what day in the weeke soeuer it fell on and not on the sunday as nowe we doe whereby it is very manifest and probable that the first preachers in this lande came more rather out of the East then from Rome Therefore by all these proofes and arguments Rome is not the mother Church of England for it had the trueth long before Eleutherius or Austin I spare to shewe the bloodie crueltie of this Austin whome the papists make an Apostle with other his foule vices of pride and disdaine c. our stories shewe it and I may haue other occassion hereafter M. Well sonne I will nowe goe no further with you in these pointes but I will put a case or two and tell me your minde What if a Catholike be sworne to persist in the obedience of the Church of Rome and not to revolt howe can such an one without plaine periury take another course S. Indeede this is their diuelish practise and pollicy in these daies to steale the hearts and loyaltie of the people from their prince as Absolon did from his father but came to a foule ende to creepe into houses and lead captiue simple women 〈◊〉 6. as the Apostle saieth to snare them with oathes and vowes and promises whatsoeuer they can deuise cont Val. wherein they tread in the steps of the olde Valentinian heretiques worthily taxed by Tertullian of whom that learned father saith Aditum priùs cruciant they first torment their schollers at their entranceâ—ne discipulis quidem proprijs antè coÌ„mittant quà m suos fecerint they commit not their misteries and doctrine no not to their ovvne disciples before they haue made them their owne Habent artificium quo priùs persuadeant quà m edoceant they haue a tricke of legerdemaine first to persvvade before they teach Even as nowe our Iesuits and seminarie priests when they seeke to reconcile any to their mother the Church of Rome they take them sworne vpon the sacrament of the altar that they shall euer after cleaue fast to thaâ— synagogue renounce all our doctrine church assemblies And before they haue thus made them their owne and fettered their consciences with a vowe they doe not open their packet of Romish wares vnto them They beginn with perswasions and end with instructions But the trueth saith Tertullian perswadeth by instructioÌ„ instructeth not by perswasion ibidem Veritas docenâ— persuadet non suadendo doc And doubtlesse trueth is euer strong and will prevaile with as many as God hath ordained to eternall life The Lords sheepe may stray a time buâ— at last the cheife sheapheard that leaueth 99 in the wildernes and goeth to seeke what is lost will finde them in mercy and ioifully bring them to his folde and to the rest that straied not as they did Nowe touching your case good mother consider well in your selfe this one thing whether any vnder heaueÌ„ way lavvfully giue me an oath or I lavvfully take an oath either to doe vvhat God flatly forbiddeth me or to leaue vndone what God flatly commandeth me M. No sure I am fully resolued of that S. Then must I consider not onely that I haue sworne but to what I haue sworne and if I finde that vnlawfull you see my oath may not binde me against the Lord. Nowe we boldly avowe as you haue heard and euer so did we avowe that if any parcel of our christian faith wherevnto we perswade be not that which God in his word hath commanded and forbidden the contrary we will renounce it Therefore I must weigh the doctrine as well as my vow or oath and if the doctrine be true that I haue sworn against and that false which I haue sworne to keepe you haue confessed that you thinke this oath wicked and not to be kept M. Surely I cannot say otherwise for my conscience telleth me it is so S. Howe then is it that many thus entangled neuer goe about to consider the matter but altogether sticke to their oath and thinke with themselues I haue sworne therefore I may not chaunge M. I know it to be true and I see it is a falt for surely no oath ought to force me either to euill or from good concerning the loosing or sauing of my soule S. Your true opinion mother in this matter may be confirmed by examples out of gods booke Iephtha you know made a rash vowe Iud. 11. â— which is in the nature of an oath to offer to God what first met him out of his house wheÌ„ he returned home and had gotten the victory against his enemies His own daughter mette him first Did he well to kill her What if a dogge or a swine had met him beeing things that God would not abide to be vsed in sacrifice should his oath haue tyed him directly to doe that which god abhorred if not those theÌ„ not his childe if obedience be better then sacrifice of things lawefull how much more then sacrifice of such crueltie and vnnaturall blooddinesse Iephta therefore is condemned and euer shal be for this wicked keeping of his vow Herod made a promise to his dancing daughter you know the story did he well to keepe that oath Iudge in your conscience how God liked that fact The â—ext saith Mat. â—â— Herod was sorry wheÌ„ he heard her petitioÌ„ yet for his oaths sake he sent and beheaded Iohn Baptist in the prison O bloodie oath and sinfull keeping of it His coÌ„science whipped him whilst he liued for it and
time of vengeance The Lord vvill giue thee a penny saith S. Austen though thou come but at the eleuenth hovvre but yet he hath not promised thee to live to the second hovvre noting the vncertainty of our life not to be presumed vpon one moment of an howre tu ergò quò quando vocaris veni thou therefore saith he come vvhither thou art called and vvhen thou art called come come without any longer stay or any moe ifs and ands or consultations with flesh and blood It is thy God that calleth who allowed not him to goe bury his father or to salute his friendes that sought that delay but required forthwith Follow thou me Zacheus when the Lord said vnto him come dovvne for I will dine with thee came dovvne hastely and receiued him ioyfully which God in mercy make vs euer to doe Whose image and superscription is vpon you euen vpon your bodie and vpon your soule is it not Gods ô giue then vnto God that which is Gods your owne selfe to your own sweete and good God and see the comfort of it Lord strengthen Lord help for thy sonnes sake M. Amen sonne and god giue satisfaction in our consciences euer to choose what is right in his eyes For conscience is truely called the bird in my breast that would not be troubled S. True satisfaction of conscience mother is a good thing and euer to be laboured for But I beseech you marke howe greatly this word is abused when fancy and will are called conscience Now a daies let it be asked of any recusant as we call them why he or shee goeth not to Church the common answere is forsooth my conscience will not let me or It is my conscience c as though euery toy that I take in my head were by and by conscience Aske them further why their conscience will not let them either they cannot or will not answere but thinke they haue said enough when they haue named once the word Conscience Alas we knowe that true conscience hath a ground and reason out of Gods word as when I say my conscience will not suffer me to kill a man and you aske me why I readily answere because it is written Thou shalt not kill and so in all other matters forbidden disalowed by almightie God which if they could doe either in this matter of comming to Church or in any other point of obedience commanded by her Maiestie and the lawe of this land then might they talke of conscience and make scruple with authoritie because we must obey God rather then man But this beeing not so forasmuch as nothing is inioyned them that is contrarie to the worde therefore this conscience of theirs is but fancy wilfull obstinacy and disobedience which the Lord will punish for we are plainely taught that euerie soule ought to be subiect to the higher powers there is no power but of God m. 13 1â— and the powers that be are ordained of God and they that resist shall receiue to themselues damnation all beeing bound to be subiect not for feare of wrath onely but also for conscience sake For humane lawes enacted of things that be good in themselues that is commaunded of God properly are not humane but diuine lawes and therefore binde conscience not because they were enacted by man but because they were first made by God men beeing no more but instruments and ministers in his name to reviue renewe and put in execution such precepts and lawes as prescribe the worship of God standing in the practise of true religion and vertue and the man or woman that breaks such lawes sinneth two waies first because he breakes that which in nature and conscience is the lawe of God secondly because in disobeying his lawfull magistrate he disobeyeth the generall commandement of God touching magistrats M. You wil haue coÌ„science then euer grouÌ„ded vpon Gods word S. Yf it be a right conscience I say it must needes be so For it is called Conscientia quasi cum scientiâ or as some thinke quasicordis scientia as if you should say with science and knowledge or the knowledge of the heart Now true knowledge what pleaseth or displeaseth God must needes be out of his word because therein onely his will is manifested vnto vs Againe the actions of the conscience saith the Apostle are in accusing and excusing which needes must haue relation to the word For how can conscience iustly accuse me but because the thing I doe is condemned of God or howe can it excuse me but because my deedes by gods worde which is his will are iustifiable Conscience therefore without direction of gods word cannot giue true iudgement either to iustification or condemnation Whatsoeuer therefore is done with an erroneous conscience we see plainely is sinne for euill remaineth euill though conscience say the contrary a thousand times and so doth good remaine good As if a man come into an house in the darke where many thinges are out of order which yet for the darkenesse he seeth not to be so are they not therfore out of order because he seeth them not The like may be saide on the other side where all things are passing well and yet he seeth it not Conscience therefore is a guid to me and the word of God a guide to my conscience which if it were marked and grounded in our hearts o how would we tremble to be so ignorant of Gods word as often we are and to doe as we doe and say as we say This makes vs to runne headlong with good intents whereas no good intention is sufficient to make any worke good vnlesse withal conscience approoue my action which it can neuer rightly doe but by giuing iudgement that God approoueth it This makes vs bolde to worship God with mans inuentions â—ay 29. â—3 â—ark 7.7 not considering that such deuises are meere sinnes because conscience cannot say of them according to her rule that they please God Finally as one saith with a godly desire to awake vs. This maketh mans life flowe euen with a sea of offences against God men commonly thinking that if they keepe themselues from periury blasphemy murder theft whordome all is well with them But the trueth is so long as they liue in ignorance they want true and right direction out of Gods word and therefore their best actions are sinnes euen their eating and drinking their sleeping and waking their buying and selling their speech and sileÌ„ce yea their praying seruing of God For they doe these actions either of custome or example or necessity as beasts doe and not of faith because they knowe not gods will touching things to be done or left vndone Wherefore the due coÌ„sideration hereof should make euery man most carefull to seeke for knowlede of Gods word and daily to increase in it that he may in all his affaires haue gods lawes to be the men of his councell that he may giue heede to them as to a lantarne
vnto his feete and a light vnto his pathes So shall conscience be a sure guide and he reforme himselfe by true obedience both to God and man Otherwise as I haue saide what we call conscience is but a fancie a conceit and a false erroneous perswasion such as if we still will follow against God against prince against countrie and all that euer any gouernours or friendes can say vnto vs the daie will come when wee shall feele with woe the punishment of such obstinacy and true conscience shall witnesse the want of conscience in so proudly disobeying all good perswasions which God forbid in his great mercy and turne our hearts in time vnto his trueth M. But I take it there is a plaine scripture that who so doth a thing which in his heart he thinketh he should not doe committeth deadly sinne because he doth against his own conscience or against his owne pretensed knowledge S. Good mother the scripture you mean as I conceiue is written in the 14 chapter of the Epistle to the Romans where the blessed Apostle saith He that doubteth is condemned if he eate because he eateth not of faith and what soeuer is not of faith is sinne Which place little helpeth any popish ignorance or stubburne wilfullnesse but is greatly by Romish Catholickes abused and wrested as other scriptures to serue for their way wardnesse Concerning which text thus haue our men truely and godlily answered long agoe and often first that the Apostle speaketh there of a particular and certaine matter papists applying these wordes generally to whatsoeuer they doe contrary to their erroneous conscience or pretensed knowledge 2. that the particular matter which the Apostle speaketh of is a thing indiffereÌ„t wheras Papists apply the wordes to things simply good and simply euill saying the former may be left vndone if my erring conscience be against it the later done without sinne if my pretensed knowledge lead me to it 3. That the things which the Apostle speaketh of were such as God himselfe was author of in his lawe as distinction of meate and daies which whilst the Iewes wonne to the Gospel did in those daies retaine though they did it ignorantly not knowing the libertie of the Gospell yet till they might be fully perswaded therein by faith which is grounded on doctrine and on the word they were bound to keepe by the commandement of God himselfe 4. That the manner and end of the Apostles bearing is not to nourish errour or to harden such an one in his opinion and doing but by patience to drawe him to trueth in the ende which manner of tolerance the Apostle calleth edification vers 19. and chap. 15.2 Lastly the Apostle speaketh not of Gentiles infidels nor of stubburn Christians but of a brother a faithfull man and one that hath receiued and embraced the profession of the Gospell but is weake through ignorance of some one point pertaining to Christian liberty in the outward vse of Gods creatures wherein he is not throughly perswaded of instructed of bearing with such an one by those whome God hath called to more plentifull knowledge of his heauenly trueth speaketh he All which things duly considered the true sence of the place appeareth thus namely that the faithfull for his particular regard beeing in doubt or lacking the full perswasion of faith which is giuen by measure and hath his time of groweth and increasing cannot without danger and therefore ought not attempt to do that wherein he is not already by the word of God and faith fully and throughly resolued But mark this double caution first that his absteining from the outward action be without danger of offence and scandall secondly that he stand not stiffâ—ly in his owne opinion flattering himselfe therein but ready vpon further instruction and knowledge to grow forward and to profit yea desirous also of such instruction and whatsoeuer other meanes may help to the better informing of his conscieÌ„ce in that behalfe whereby he may both clearely see the thing doubted of to the good holy and lawfull do the same with all sincerity faithfullnes M. But what if without daÌ„ger of offending God and prince I caÌ„not abstaine from the outward action and yet doubt in my selfe S. Your obedience beeing due it lesse offendeth to commit one fault then two that is to doe what you ought though doubtingly then both do doubt and disobey The doubting is a fault the obedience is none Amend what is euill by better instruction withdraw not what is good and due by all right He is condemned saith the Apostle if he eate not because he eteth but because he eateth not of faith In a lawefull action therefore it is not the deed which offendeth but the doubting that is not the matter but the manner performe obedience with a single heart and God in meane shall blesse it with true resolution M. Doth not then an erroneous conscience binde S. It may be borne withall for a time in charitable regard of weakenesse and in hope of better instruction but God forbidde that it should still binde and bee a couer or excuse for wilfull waywarde and malitious disobedience 2. Thes 2. 1. Tim. 4. For then to bee giuen ouer to a strong delusion to beleeue lies is not such a iudgement as the Apostle maketh it neither yet to haue the conscience feared with an hotte iron 2. Tim. 1.19 It is not right which the Apostle teacheth that vpon the putting away of a good conscience their followeth any shipwracke of faith or that the wicked haue their very mindes and consciences defiled 1. Tit. 1. For if the colour of such a conscience binde excuse and saue harmeles how is it defiled can that which is defiled it selfe make cleane any action But ô miserable doctrine that false reason should be made a guide to will and we bound to followe so blinde a guide The very heathen philosophers were not so madde For they talke of recta ratio and of mens sana in corpore sano of right and true reason and of a sound minde in a sounde body c. A Iewe sinneth mortally say these Catholike teachers if coÌ„â—ratrary to his pretensed knowledge or against his erroneous conscience he acknowledge in Trinitie Iesus Christ the second person yea the Iewes had sinned mortally if they had not crucified Christ according to their erring consciences Againe to beleeue in Christ if false reason propound it as euill is euill yea to worship the deuill beeing deceiued by the same reason is not onely not a sinne but a good worke O Catholike doctrine Then for the second table if a man leauing his wife and going into another countrie marry another and after repenting himselfe would leaue her affirming his former wife to be aliue and the Church suffer him not beeing ignorant of the trueth of that his assertion although this latter marriage bee nought and the man consequently an adulterer Deare mother marke this stuffe the
woman being excused by ignorance yet compelled by the disciplinâ— of the Church his obedience excuseth him This is grosse and knowne adultery excused by these holy Catholicks false reason and erring conscience ruleth this kingdoÌ„e of darkenesse so shamefully If this be not libertinisme what is Alas why might not this fauour be shewed in Queene Maries daies that an erring conscience should excuse Why were men and women then compelled to doe contrary to their consciences which at worst must be granted to be erroneous consciences Nay see their partiality yet more for if one of their prelats command what a mans erring coÌ„science stardeth at then they say such a man ought to lay away that his conscience and obey his prelate And why not when God coÌ„mandeth should a man doe the like O blinde guides what doctrine is this if the commandement of an inferiour officer or magistrate bind not when the superiour as King or Emperour commandeth the contrary how may an erring conscience euer bind me against the Lord Gods booke is so farre from allowing this erring conscience and this preteÌ„sed knowledge that it onely alloweth good and suffereth not euill to be done that good may come of it M. Surely I see more harshnesse in the doctrine then I did before But on the other side to compell and force any body by lawes and penalty before the conscience be fully perswaded is it not as harsh and hard to S VVhere there is an honest plaine meaning to indeauour to be perswaded and resolued god forbidde but some time should bee graunted And I thinke it is so in all places But propound the matter thus whether a godly prince after a time giuen meanes graunted to be taught and instructed and after al gentlenes patience vsed his subjects refusing to be taught and contemning that gratious great fauour continuing still perveâ—sly and obstinately in Idolatrie and superstition whether I say then by lawes and punishments to compel theÌ„ to the true worship of God be so harde and harsh And then truth wil answer that it is not but iust godly and fit For not onely to maintaine publike peace is the sword giuen but also to see that God be serued according to his coÌ„mandements â—trieis cal â—amans â—â—tum that is both the tables are coÌ„mitted to him the breaches of both ought by him to be punished otherwise man should bee regarded more then God the lesser duties more then the greater In which holy and relious duty hath not the magistrate god for his patterne who after words of admonition giueÌ„ to his own elect deare children if they take no place coÌ„pelleth as it were by crosses rods of his fatherly loue to the bettering of their course leauing of euill Yea is not our own practise so with our own children if gentle admonition will not serue wherevpoÌ„ the saying spraÌ„ge he that spareth the rod hateth the child what shall we say to the Scriptures that are as plaine for the warraÌ„t of this matter as we need to desire did not Nabuchodonosor make a law that euery people nation and language which spak any blasphemy against the god of Sidrach c. should be drawn in peeces Dan. 3.29 their houses made a â—akes Darius also made another decree chap 6. In the book of Chronicles Asa destroieth Idolatry coÌ„mandeth his people to serue the true God 2. Chro. 14.14 yea he sweareth them and deposeth his mother for adulterie whose erroneous conscience was in all likelihood as stroÌ„g as any Papists for his popery In the book of Ezra we read that the king of Persia made a decree that the Iewes should build their temple that they should haue all things necessarie for their sacrifices that they might offer sweet odours vnto the God of heauen pray for the kings life the life of his sonns Also he made another law that whosoeuer should alter that sentence a penal statâ—â— the wood should be pulled down from his house and set vp and he hanged thereon his house made a dunghil for this Ezra 6.11 And the god that hath caused his name to dwell their saith that lawe destroy all kings and people that put their hand to alter and destroy this house of God which is in Hierusalem Idarius haue made a decree let it be done with speede After againe which I pray you good mother to marke authority is giuen to set iudges and arbiters which may iudge all the people that is beyond the riuer p. 7.25 euen al that knowe the lawe of God and to teach all that know it not and whosoeuer will not obey the law of God the kings lawe saith that statute let him haue iudgemeÌ„t without delay whether it be vnto death or punishment to confiscation of goodes or to imprisonment What lawe did euer any prince make more plaine without any regard to a pretended conscience wanting true grounde out of the law of god For if that might either then or nowe be allowed what lawe coulde holde against which he that list not to be reformed would not obiect his erroneous conscience VVhat gouernment could any prince in the world settle and establish Away therefore with this idle dreame of a pretended conscience and marke how neuer in any gouernment it was regarded after waies and meanes vsed for the reformation of it but euer subiected to the penaltie of the lawe beeing indeede an obstinacy both against god and prince worthy punishment In the newe testament is it not saide Luk. 14.23 Goe into the high vvaies anà compell to come in that my house my be full I forgotte to remember you of that lawe and penall statute made by the king of Ninive Ionah 3. which was so well liked of god but you may now thinke of it and adde it to the rest of the olde testament If we looke at practise Polonia Russia Lituania were forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auntient Idols Munst Cosm 4. p. 894.902 L. 3. p. 719.74 and to receiue baptisme Good princes also maintained long and sharpe warres to compell the Saxons and Vandals to the faith c. The lawes of this realme blessed be god force to nothing but what is directly prooued in scripture And the constraint is not outragious with fire and sword but tempered with mercy that is free from losse of life and limme such as the true Church of god neuer disliked and Christian princes alwaies vsed with great and good successe It is tempered also with good instruction to forsake error wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced Romish Catholicks revenge the smallest contempt of their idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments Their prelats make it their occupation to persecute to death all sorts ages and Sexes which refuse their schoole-tricks or dregges of their Clementines or decretalls Howe then can they finde fault with any due compulsion full of mercy and profit to
all that be not malitiously froward yea all of them both Clergie and laity promised in baptisme to hold this faith therefore they may be compelled to performe their promise Gratian Theodosius Arcadius Honorius and other Christian princes with conuenient sharpnes of positiue lawes amerced banished and diuersly punished heretickes And these coactions when the Donatists railed on them with open mouth S. Augustin defended and commended writing to Vincentius thus Thinkest thou saith he that no man ought to the forced vnto righteousnes â—pist 49. wheÌ„ thou readest that the master said to his seruaÌ„ts compest them to come in and also that Paul was forced by losse of his eies a greater punishment then losse of landes and goodes Markâ— Christ here first compelling after teaching striking then comforting Let them not mislike that they are forced but examine whereto they are forced How doe kings saith he serue the Lord in feare but when they forbid and punish with religious seuerity those things that are done against the commandement of God as Hezekiah did by destroying the groaues and temples built against the precepts of God as did Iosiah the king of Niniveh Nabuchodonosor c. S. Ambrose saith Quoniam futurum iudicium Deus statuit nullum perire vult hoc in seculo rectores ordinauit vt terrore interposito omnibus velut paedagogi sint in epist ad Rom. c. 13. ne in paenam incidaÌ„t futuri iudicei For asmuch as God hath appointed a future and finall iudgement in the vvorld to come and vvould not that any should perish he hath ordained rulers in this present worlde to be as it were schoolemasters to all to keepe them through terrour that they incurre not the penaltie of the iudgement to come Thus we see scripture reason practise fathers all allowing compulsion of an erroneous conscience or pretensed knowledge which surely is enough to any moderate mind desiring satisfactioÌ„ in true simplicitie and not making couers for vngodly obstinacie in subtile hypocrisy M. Sonne your answeres are so reasonable that I will still obiect to heare your answeres What if I say God hath made vs free therefore there is no reason any should be compelled S. Then will I answere Good Mother that euen our first parentes who had freewill had also both a lawe giuen them of God and a penaltie added to the same if they should transgresse it much more now then may the like be done when we haue both loste our selues and our freewill to vse the wordes of S. Austin By no lawe is the will compelled for that still is either free or it looseth his name of will But men according to their bodies may be forced as well to keepe the commandements of the first table concerning dutie to God as the commandements of the second table concerning dutie to men M. But againe I vvill say this maketh men hypocrites when outwardly they doe that which in their hearts they mislike S. And againe I answere that the drift of the magistrate is not to make them hypocrits but by these meanes to drawe them willingly to doe that which thy are enioyned And if it be not so that is their fault not the magistrates So did God with Ionas Paul and others So saith S Augustin of his owne cirtie fallen to Donatisme ug contr audenâ—â— epiâ—â—m l. 2. c. 17. that by outvvard lavves they were brought to invvard knovvledge and so he saw the benefit of this course that the sword should raigne with the word although at first he saith it vvas his opinion that none should be compelled before he vvere perswaded And S Chrysostome saith Multi sunt qui cùm virtutem primùm respectu magistratus exercuerunt posted etiam illam propter Dei timorem amplectuntur a Spist ad 〈◊〉 c. 13. Many men vvhereas at first they be haue themselues vertuously in regard of the magistrate and for feare of punishment afterwarde doe it gladly euen for feare of God and in reuerence of his maiestie VVe see the iudgement of this holy father that compulsion by the magistrate is necessarie and profitable though at first it procure but externall obedience and his reason which followeth is very good Crassiores enim saith he non adeo futura tangunt atque praesentia ibidem for carnall men are not so much touched vvith future as present thinges that is as I vnderstand him the torments of hell in the world to come doe not so much preuaile with them as the punishment of the Magistrate presently to be inflicted vpon them And that Epistle of S. Augustin is most worthie often reading his 48 epistle M. Yet forced Religion pleaseth not God S. Surely it lesse displeaseth with one part to doe my duty then with both partes to offend To come to Church with my bodies where by Gods grace I may be caught as S. Augustin was at S. Ambrose his sermon then both with bodie and mind to disobey not only prince but God A part of my duty is something though it be not all M. The magistrate cannot giue faith therefore he should not compell to faith S. He doth not compell to faith but to the meanes whereby God vseth to giue saith namely to hearing for faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God which howe profitable it may be by Gods mercy hath beene alreadie said and the words of Dauid shewe when he saith It is good for me that I haue beene in trouble c. and the words of Ieremy Castigasti Castigatus sum thou hast chastned me and I haue beene chastned The words of Esay Vexatio dat intellectum Vexation and trouble vvorke vnderstanding The wordes of wise Salomon Da sapienti occasionem sapientior erit giue a wise man occasion and he vvill be vviser M. Why then did not Christ coÌ„pell any S. Christ was no magistrate and we speake of the Magistrate and what he may doe by his office and authority giuen him by God M. Surely Sonne great is trueth and prevaileth I will trouble you no further in this matter S. I will then deare mother shut it vppe with S. Augustins wordes to the Donatists Non bene facere legibus cogimini sed malè facere prohibemini Nam bene facere nemo potest nisi elegerit c. You are not compelled by lawes to doe well but you are forbidden and hindered to doe euill For no man can doe well vnlesse he vvillingly doe it Timor autem paenaruÌ„ cisi nondum habeat dilectionem bonae conscientiae saltem intra claustra cogitationis coercet malam cupiditatem And the feare of punishmeÌ„t although it haue not as yet the loue of good conscience yet at least it restraineth euill within the hidden cogitation Numquid quia mores optimi libertate voluntatis eliguntur contra Petil. l. 2. c. 83. ideò mores pessimi non legis integritate puniuntur Because good manners are chosen by freedome of will therefore are not ill manners punished
by integritie of lawe In a worde Aliter non persequimur vos nisi quemadmodum veritas persequitur falsit atem We persecute you no otherwise but as trueth persecuteth falshood namely to saluation not to destruction M. Surely your answeres I must confesse are farre otherwise then either I looked for at your handes or thought coulde haue beene giuen in your cause Wherefore I say againe we on our side are greatly wronged when we are forbidden to read your bookes or to conferre with you But yet if some learned man were here to dispute with you happely he would contrarie this which to me seemeth plaine S. Surely mother euen this also which you name is a good point be touched For indeede it is an vsuall shift of men and women thus giuen to say I cannot answere you but if such and such were here they would and would God we might haue some disputation then should wee see which part were better Yea such bragges are made by some learned of your side to blinde the eyes of the people as if either there neuer had bin triall of their streÌ„gth this waie or as if they alwaies had had the vpper hand in disputation when God knoweth and the world can witnesse herein their weaknes and great foiles to the glorie of God and victory of his truth in the hearts of many thousandes both men and vvomen For confirmation whereof let me remember you of the disputation at Berne in Heluetia in king Henry the 8 his daies which is thus published in Chronicle to the worldes knowledge There was in ☞ the yeare of our Lord 1527. in the moneth of december order taken by the senate and people of Berne whose power amongst all the Switzers chiefly excelleth in regard of the varience of religion that then was and still more more increaseth that there should be a publike disputation in that cittie and to that ende they sent forth writings of the same and called thither all the Bishops bordering neere about them as the bishop of Constance Basil Sedune Lausanna warning them to come both themselues and to bring with them their devines or els to loose all such professions as they had lying within the boundes of their precinct They also appointed learned men amoÌ„gst them preachers of the Gospell to be readie to dispute against all commers in defence of their doctrine prescribing the disputation to be decided onely by the authority of the olde and newe testament They graunted safe conduct to all that would come They appointed likewise that all things should be done modestly without iniurie and brawling words and that euery one should haue leaue to speake his minde freely and with such deliberation that euerie mans saying might be receiued by the notarie and penned And to the end men might come thither better prepared they caused their ministers to publish such questions as they should dispute on before hand in writing that euery man might studie to say what he coulde against them and they were tenne in number 1. The true Church riseth out of Gods worde continueth in the same and heareth the voice of none other 2. The true Church maketh no lawes without the word 3. Traditions binde not but as firre as they are agreeable to the written word 4. Christ onely hath satisfied for the sinnes of the vvorld and therefore if any make any other waie the same denieth Christ 5. The body and blood of Christ cannot be receiued really and corporally by the testimony of scripture 6. There is no place of purging after this ☞ life and therfore all dirges prayers ceremonies lampes tapers c. bestowed for the dead profitte nothing 7. Christ onely is to be prayed vnto as the mediator of mankind to God the father 8. The masse is wicked and derogatory to Christs sacrifice offered for vs. 9. Images ought not to be set vp in Churches and praied vnto 10. Marriage is allowed by God vnto all degrees These things I say thus agreed vpon before hand were sent abroad to al places and the day appointed the 7 of Ianuarie for the disputation to beginne At which day nowe see the courage of Catholicks not one of the bishops before named came neuerthelesse the citty of Basil Zuricke Schasuse Abbacelle Sangallium Mallusia with the neighbours of Rhetia also they of Strawsburge Vlmes Ausburge Lindaue Constance and Isue sent thither their Embassadours The doctors of Berne began the disputation whereat were present Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucerus Capito and Blaurecus with others One the other side of them that were opponents the chiefe was Conzadus and Tregerus a frier Augustine who no way able to prooue his cause out of the olde and newe testament as was appointed and decreed at first desired that he might alledge Doctours which the moderators refusing to graunt because it was contrarie to the order appointed he to his great shame and to the preiudice of all his side departed out of the place and would dispute no more The disputation endured 19. daies and in the ende by the greater part of that assembly the protestantes hadde the victorie and the Papists the foile And it was agreed vpon that the themes before mentioned were all true and agreeable to Gods holy worde that they shoulde be ratified and proclaimed according to promise and that masses altars images c. should in all places be abolished So they were at Constance Berne and Geneva they causing the day and yeare of this reformation from poperie to Christianity to be ingrauen in a pillar with golden letters for a perpetuall memorie to all posteritie This was anno 1528. After the rumour of this disputation Reformation followed at Strawsburge Basil and other places to Gods great glorie the comfort of his people the true witnessing to the world what strength Romish Catholicks haue in disputation when they are desired to keepe to the scriptures which onely is the ground of trueth and conscience I may not repeat others at large but blessed be God the like triall of them was made and the like foile giuen them at Wittenberge and Ravensburge at Ausburge at Spire at Wormes at Pois and here in England at London at Cambridge at Oxford and in private houses and consistories of Bishops often That notable seruice of Beza at Pois gone through the worlde when the Cardinall of Lotharinge wished that either Beza had beene dumme or they his auditours and aduersaries deaâ—e will witnesse for euer what pith popish falshood hath had against Christian trueth held and taught by protestants wheÌ„ they came to disputation Reade our owne Chronicles of the cowardly refusall of the popish Bishops to dispute at the happy entrance of her Maiesty to the Crowne howe also they behaued theÌ„selues in Queene Maries time when one of them said vve had the word but they had the sword c. Indeede indeede the sword and the fire are their best arguments and in blood they build whatsoeuer they build Neuer neuer therefore let them
boast of disputation or say they haue prospered by it for we neede not to feare them God be blessed nor they to bragge of any winning There neuer wanted yet neither euer shall want both learned and vnlearned on our side whose spirits they shall not be able to resist writing preaching disputing they are the Gospels weapons and waies to build by Popery must take soÌ„e other course as yet in all times they haue done which holde that plough O that for further proofe of this point meÌ„ would be content without preiudice to read the Acts monuments of this our natiue countrie and English Church where we liue marking with a minde desirous of trueth what answers haue beene made by simple women maides and girles vnto great Bishops and Doctoures in causes of religion faith to the great astonishment of their aduersaries the high glorie of God seene in their weaknesse so strengthened by him But nothig can bee more grieuous to that Church then to graunt leaue to doe this which surely bewrayeth they are afraide Hence come their lies and slaunders invented against that book which would full soone be discried of vs woulde we reade it If any haue beene in Westminster ball at tharraignment of a misdoer we willingly heare him a whole day to tell vs the manner of it what was obiected what answered what replyed and what concluded yet we will not read with our owne eies hauing it so notably penned for vs the conventings of holy Christian men and women before their iudges for matter of faith and saluation We wil talke of disputation disputations and ô that men might be allowed to speake freely without daunger of lawe what they are able and when the time was for theirs to speake what they would or coulde and wee stoode at the barre in bolts and yron to answere their obiections and profound learning we will not nowe reade what was then done said on both sides Surely I will say of that booke what I wish tried that after the ground of holy scriptures it will yeelde the greatest contentment Men shall see men women shall see women age shall see age and youth youth brought to the triall howe they answered howe they suffered howe flesh startled howe the spirit conquered and in a worde howe God shewed his mercie and power infinite waies If we finde they speake well we may embrace it if otherwise leaue it The Lord hath giuen vs wisdome and reason and of his grace also I trust to be able to discerne if we would reade O why should our enemies hoodwincke vs so that we must neuer see but with their eies If the charge of this book be to much for one an whole parish might ioyne together and vse it by turners as leisure serued M. Sonne I see you are ready for eueuery way and therefore hauing gone thus farre in triall of what you could say and now being come to our iourneys ende I will goe no further with you at this time but reserue the particular pointes of controuersie till wee haue some fitte leisure and opportunity againe S. Good Mother when and howe you please But nowe ere we part I beseech you let me speake something to you with out offence I will not say much M. Speake on you shall doe more Then as yet you haue done if you any way offend me S. 〈◊〉 religious â—â—ite or a verâ—ous child to 〈◊〉 mother My suite is then most deare mother with a melting heart of an humble childe that you would vouchsafe to thinke of that which hath nowe beene spoken as also of this feare full course which you haue to long liked of in not comming to Church not receiuing the sacrament not hearing Gods word not obeying the lawes of your dread and gratious Soueraigne and of your natiue countrie It woundeth your credit and estimation with the best it hurteth my father daunteth your children blemisheth your house and wrongeth your friendes both neare deare most grieuously But ô father I say againe my heart bursteth and bleedeth to see howe he is eclipsed by it in comparison of others to whome he is no way inferiour either in birth in liuing in wisdome and experience or in any gift in body or minde neither hath his countrie that good from him or he that good from his countrie that might be had if you were reformed For how may he be thought so fit to rule others abroad that cannot be obeied of his owne at home His children therefore want him his friends want him his seruants want him yea he himselfe wanteth himselfe many times to his griefe Other things also I could name that better may be conceiued in your tender loue towardes him then by me expressed at this time O mother pardon your owne flesh in speaking thus boldly to you and knowe that it is but a part of your selfe that speaketh to your selfe in tender louect dutie When first my father matched with you he hoped of streÌ„gth countenance euery way to be increased to him both by your selfe and your excellent qualities wherewith God hath indued you and by your friendes and house to whome by this marriage he should be vnited not of any abashment and abatement in al these to him and his poore children the pledges of loue betwixt you And thus might it be it you would but alas thus is it not because hitherto you would not A fewe false charmers haue sunke deeper into your heart with their deceits then all your best friendes can with their faithful aduertisements And what is this els in you and others of your perswasion but that which euer hath bin done by the olde serpent the head and guide of these charmers In the Acts of the Apostles we read that the Iewes hating deadly the trueth of the Gospell preached by the Apostles and desirous to vexe them for it deuised this as the best means to stirre vp certaine honest and devout women against them which women should vvork with their friendes to expell such preachers from amongest them Nowe why women but because Satan hath euer had his aduaÌ„tage against this weake vessell why devout women but becavse a religious minde meaning well yet waÌ„ting knowledge is both quicklyer deceiued with shewe of religion and hottelier pursueth what it once beginneth doing more hurt in that false deuotion then many others not so well thought of And why honourable women but that might being added to blinde zeale both by power and example Satans cause might goe forwarde These charmers saith the Apostle againe shall still be creeping into houses lead captiue simple women By which often repeated name of women in the scripture all good women are effectually warned to beware Were there cause for you or any others thus to doe it no way could stand with religion to diswade you and in my selfe to you Mother it should be a double sinne because I am yours and aboue all wordly fauours ought to wish your eternall