But if any one man begaÌ„ it first so another why did not y â— Priests and Bishops then speake against it Why did they suffer one singular man only vpoÌ„ a singular phaÌ„sy to breake the general order y t was geuen by Christ obserued by generall consent through the hole church â—…fit it had beÌ„ staid at the first in one it had neuer past afterward to so many â—…f it be a wickednesse as ye say for one man of his own vain phaÌ„sy to alter the general order of the whole church then ye see euen by Steuen Gardiners confession y t your generall coÌ„sent wherunto ye lene so much proceded at the first only of wyckednes And being so ye remeÌ„ber ye haue a rule in your own lawe Quae à principio malè inchoata fuit institutio temporis tractu non conualescit that is the thing that was naught at the beginninge can not be made good by processe of tyme. O master doctour let vs laye asyde all selfe will and contention and haue recourse onely vnto the trueth that God hath reueyled to vs in his holy worde For therby shall ye be able to knowe whether y â— church do right or no. And therby shall ye be able to reforme her â–ª if she happen to do amisse â–ª For it is possible the church may erre but it is not possible the Scriptures may erre And the Scriptures of God haue authority to reforme y â— churche but I neuer hearde y â— the church hath authority to reforme the Scriptures Thus Christ reformed the errours of the churche in his tyme brought in by the Scribes Pharisees and said vnto them ScriptuÌ„ est Thus S. Paule refourmed y â— Corinthians for misusing the holy communion in his tyme and tolde them Quod accepi à Domino hoc tradidi vobis I deliuered you that thing that I receiued of the lord Thus the olde father Ireneus to stay the erroures of his tyme bad the parties haue a recourse to the most auncient churchs froÌ„ whence religion sprange fyrst Thus saith Tertullian to redresse he errors of his tyme. Hoc coÌ„tra omnes Haereticos praeiudicat id esse veâ—…um quodcunque primum id esse adulterum quodcunque posterius This saying sayth the preuayleth against all heretikes y t the thynge that was fyrste ordeyned is to be taken for true and whatsoeuer was deuised afterwarde is to be taken for false Thus saith S. Hierome of the abuses of his tyme. Quae absque testimonio scripturarum quasi tradita ab Apostolis asseruntur percutiuÌ„tur malleo verbi Dei The thigs that are fathered vppon the Apostles haue no testimonye of the Scriptures are beaten down 〈◊〉 the hammer of gods word Thus saith S. Ciprian to stay the schismes and sectes of his tym Hinc Schismata orâ—…tur quia caput non quaeritur ad fontem non reditur caelestis magistri praecepta non obseruantur Hereof springe Schismes and diuisions for y â— we haue no recourse to the first institutioÌ„ and go not backward to the spring and kepe not the coÌ„maunments of the heauenly maister Thus saith S. Augustin to refourme y â— errours of his tyme Nâ—… audiatur hoc ego dico hoc tu dicis sed haec dicit Dominê° Ibi quaeratur Ecclesia Let not these wordes be heard betwene vs thus say I or thus say ye but thus saith y â— Lord. And there let vs seke for y â— churche of God Thus saith S. Ciprian Si ad diuâ—…nae traditionis caput origineÌ„ reuertaris cessat omnis error humanus If ye wil retourne to y â— head and beginning of Gods ordinauÌ„ce all erroures of man wyll sone geue place Theodosius the Emperour pronounceth that they onely are to be taken for Catholik y â— folowe the doctrine that Peter deliuered at the first to the churche of Rome and so examined he the matter by the originall Wherfore it standeth you nowe vpon to proue that your pryuate masse your communioÌ„ vnder one kynde your prayers in an vnknowen tong and your Supremacy was deliuered at the fyrst by Peter to the churche of Rome or els to confesse that these things be not Catholike To conclude lyke as the errors of the clock be reueiled by the constant course of the sonne euen so the errours of the churche are reueiled by the euerlastinge and infallible worde of God But to say as sum of you haue sayd the church is the only rule of our faith whatsoeuer God saith in is worde she can neuer erre is asmuche as if a man woulde saye howe soeuer the sonne go yet the clock must neds go true For gods trueth is an euerlastinge trueth hangeth not vpon the pleasure or determinacion of men but beynge once true is true for euer God open the eies of our hartes that we may se it and reioyce in it that the trueth may deliuer vs. Thus much I thought it good to say to your letters before my de parture hence not for y â— I knewe precisely they wer yours but only because they bare your name If ye thinke I haue bene sum what long specially youre answeres being so short ye shall remember that a little poison requireth oft times a great deale of Triale Here once agayne I conclude as before puttyng you in remembraunce that thys longe I haue desyred you to brynge forth sum sufficiente authoritye for proufe of youre partye and yet hetherto can obtein nothing Which thinge I muste nedes nowe pronounce symplye and playnlye because it is true wythout if or and ye do Conscientia imbecillitatis because as ye knowe there is nothynge to be brought All these thynges considered if I might be so bolde with you I would say frend ly to you as S. Augustin saith to S. Hierome Arripe seueritatem Christianam cane palinodiam 18. Maye 1560. Iohn Sarum The copie of a Sermon pronounced by the Byshop of Salisburie at Paules Crosse the second Sondaye before Ester in the yere of our Lord. 1560. whervpon D. Cole first sought occasion to encounter shortly set forthe as nere as the authour could call it to remembraunce without any alteration or addition TERTVLLIANVS Praeiudicatum est aduersus omnes haereses id esse verum quodcunque primum id esse adulterum quodcunque posterius ¶ This is a preiudice against all heresles that that thinge is true what soeuer was first that is corrupt whatsoeuer came after Concilium Nicenum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mores antiqui obtineant THE COPIE OF a Sermon pronounced by the Bisshop of Salisbury at Paules Crosse the. ii Sondaye before Ester in the yeare of our Lord God 1560. Wherupon D Cole first sought occasioÌ„ to encouÌ„ter shortly set forth as nere as the authoure could call it to remembraunce without any alteration or addicioÌ„ 1. Cor. ii Ego accepi a domino quod et tradidi uobis quoniam Dominus Iesê° in qua nocte tradebatur accepit panem c. I haue receyued
Communion al this while Yet are there sum that whisper in corners that the masse is ablessed a catholike thing and y ◠the holy Communion which now god of his great mercy hathe restored to vs is wicked and scismaticall therefore they murmure against it therfore they refrayne it wyll not come to it O mercifull God who woulde thynke there coulde be so muche wilfulnes in the heart of man O Gregorye O Augustine O Hierome O Chrisostome O Leo O Dionyse O Anacletus O sixtus O Paule O Christ If we be deceyued herein ye are they y ◠haue deceyued vs. You haue taught vs these sci◅nes diuisions ye haue taught vs these heresies Thus ye ordred the holy communiō in your tyme the same w◅ receyued at your hand and haue faithfullye delyuered it vnto the people And that ye may the more meruell at the wylfulnes of suche men they stande this day against so manye olde fathers so manye doctoures so many examples of the primitiue churche so manifest and so plaine words of the holye scriptures yet haue they herein not one father not one doctor not one allowed example of the prymitiue churche to make for them And when I say not one I speak not this in vehemencie of spirite or heate of talke but euen as before God by the way of simplicity and truth lest any of you shoulde happely be deceyued and thynke there is more weyght in the other syde thē in cōclusion there shal be found And therfore once agayne I say of all the words of the holye scriptures of all the examples of y ◠primitiue churche of all the olde fathers of all the aunciēt doctors in these causes they haue not one Here the mater it selfe that I haue nowe in hand putteth me in remembraunce of certein thinges that I vttered vnto you to y ◠same purpose at my last beynge in thys place I remember I layed out then here before you a number of thinges that are nowe in contronersie◅ wherunto our aduersaries will not yelde And I said perhappes boldely as it might then seeme to sum man But as I my self and the learned of our aduersaries thēselues do wel know sincerely and trulye that none of all them that this day stande against vs are able or shall euer be able to proue against vs any one of all those points ether by y ◠scriptures or by exāple of y t primitiue church or by the olde doctours or by the auncient generall councelles Since that tyme it hathe ben reported in places that I spake then more then I was able to iustifye and make good Howe beit these reportes were onely made in corners and therefore ought the lesse to trouble me But if my sayinges had ben so weake myght so easelye haue ben reproued I meruayle that the partyes neuer yet came to the lyght to take the aduauntage For my promise was and that openly here before you all That if anye man were able to proue the contrary I woulde yelde and subscribe to hym And he shoulde depart with the victorye Loth I am to trouble you with rehersall of suche thinges as I haue spokē afore and yet because the case so requireth I shall desire you that haue alredy hearde me to beare y ◠more with me in this behalf Better it were to trouble your eares with twyse hearing of one thyng then to betray the truth of God The words that I then spake as nere as I can call them to mynd were these If any learned man of all our aduersaries or if all y e learned men that be alyue be able to bring any one sufficient sentence out of any olde catholike doctour or father Or out of any olde generall counsell Or out of y ◠holye scriptures of God Or any one example of the primitiue Churche wherby it may be clearly plainly proued y t there was any priuate masse in the whole worlde at that tyme for the space of sixe hundred yeres after Christ Or that there was then any Communion ministred vnto the people vnder one kind Or that the people had th◅r commē prayers then in a straūge toung that they vnderstode not Or that the Bishop of Rome was then called an vniuersal Bishop or the head of y ◠vniuersal churche Or that y ◠people was then taught to beleue that Christes bodye is really substantially corporally carnally or naturally in the sacrament Or that his body is or maye be in a thousand places or mo at one tyme Or that the priest did then holde vp the sacrament ouer hys head Or that the people dyd then fall down and worship it w t godly honour Or that the sacrament was then or nowe oughte tobe hanged vp vnder a canopie Or that in the Sacrament after the wordes of consecration there remaineth only the accidents and shewes without the substaunce of bread and wyne Or that the priest then deuyded the Sacramente in three partes and afterward receyued him selfe all alone Or y ◠wh◅ so euer had said the sacramente is a figure a pledge a token or a remembraunce of Christes bodye had therefore been iudged for an heretike Or that it was lawfull then to haue xxx xx xv x. or v. Masses said in one Churche in one day Or that Images were then set vp in the churches to the entente the people might worship them Or that the lay people was then forbidden to reade the word of God in theyr owne toung If any man alyue wer able to proue any of these articles by anye one cleare or plaine clause or sentēce ether of the scriptures or of the olde doctours or of any olde generall Counsell or by any example of the primitiue chuech I promised then that I would geue ouer and subscribe vnto hym These words are the very lyke I remember I spake here openly before you all And these be the things that sum men say I haue spoken and cannot iustify But I for my part will not only not call in any thinge that I then sayd beinge well assured of the truth therein but also will laye more mater to y ◠same That if they that seeke occasion haue any thing to y ◠contrary they may haue the larger scope to replye againstme Wherfore besyde al that I haue said alredy I wil say farther and yet nothing so much as might be sayd If any one of all our aduersaries be able clearly and plainlye to proue by such authority of the scriptures the olde doctoures councelles as I said before that it was then lawfull for the priest to pronounce the wordes of consecration closely and in sylence to him self Or that the priest had th◅ authority to offer vp Christ vnto his father Or to communicate receyue the sacramēt for an other as they do Or to apply the vertue of Christes death and passion to any man by the meane of y ◠masse Or that it was then thought a sound doctrine to
sumus panibus bene nobis erat malū non vidimus That is We wyll not heare the word that thou spekest v◅to vs in the name of y t lord but we wyll do euery thinge that shall procede oute from our owne mouth as to burne incense to the Quene of Heauen and to offer vp Drinke offerynges vnto her as both we haue done and oure fathers and our kinges our princes in the citie of Iuda and in the streates of Hierusalem For then had we plentie of victualles and were wel and felt no euyl We remember when the Gospel of Christ was preached by S. Paule at Ephesus the deuels mouth was therby stopped all his force and power taken from him yet there was a great n◅ber that rose vp against Paule violently withstode his doctryne and cryed out wyth mayn voyte agaynst him Magna est diana Ephe siorum Great is Diana the Goddesse of the Ephesians Euē so in these dayes notwithstanding the comparisō may happely seme somwhat od◅ous where as the holy Communion is restored to the vse and fourme of y ◠primitiue church to the same order y ◠was deliuered and appointed by Christ and after practised by the Apostles and continued by y e holy doctoures and fathers for y e space of fyue or sixe hundred yeares throughout all the whole Catholick churche of Christ without exception or any one sufficient exāple to be shewed to the contrarye yet are there sum this day that refuse it and shun it vnaduisedlye and wilfullye run hedlong to the Masse of a good zele I hope but not according vnto knowledg For alas they vnderstande not what ▪ they do they know not neither the communion neyther the Masse neyther wil they harkē or inquire to come to knowledg And so in y t middest of the light they remayne stil in darknes Wherfore as I said afore I haue thought it nedefull to intre at sumwhat herof at this tyme haue good hope through Goddes grace so to laye forth the whole matter not with eloquence of words but w t simplicity of the truth y t it maye be plaine both vnto thē that haue forsaken the masse for what cause and howe iustly they haue forsakē it and also vnto them that as yet delite in it what maner of thinge it is that they delyte in I knowe sum man wil saye for as much as y ◠sacrament is a holy thing the ordinaūce of Christ the high mistery of his death of our saluation to remain in the church for euer Therfore it cannot possibly be abused all that we speake this day in this behalfe we speak of malice and not of truth True it is the sacrament is an holy thing y ◠ordinaunce of Christ the mistery of our saluation yet is there nothing so good no ordinaūce so holy no mistery so heauenly but through y ◠foly frowardnes of man it may be abused The Serpent that was set vp by Moises in the wildernes was an holy thinge for it was a sacrament a figure of Christ hanging on the crosse yet was it abused The Gospell of Christe is an holy thynge yet S. Paule sayth to the Philippians there were sum then that preached it for malice and contention doing therby seruice not vnto Jesus Chryste whō they professed in their mouth but vnto theyr owne bellye And thus beyng holy in it self yet was it shamefully abused And what thing is there s◅ holye as the name of God and yet what thing is there so often taken in vain or somuch abused But to cum neare to our purpose the sacrament of Baptyme is an holy thinge yet hath it ben abused and that in the churche of God yea euen at the beginnynge of the churche euen when the Apostles of Christ were yet a lyue and the bloude of Chryste as yet fresh greene before theyr eyes In S. Paules tyme there wer sum that baptised for y ◠dead after that there were sum that baptised such as wer alredy dead sprinkled thē with water in the name of the father of the sonne and of the holy gost laied their handes ouer them called thē by their names as if they had ben alyue Whyche thing was reproued forbiddē in the councell of Carthage Others there were that baptised childrē before they were borne beynge as yet in theyr mothers womb Which thing is mencioned and reproued by S. Augustin All these as may sone appeare were gre◅t abuses Thus the sacrament of Baptisme not withstanding it were a holy thing yet was abused The sacrament of the brekinge of Christs body the sheading of his bloud is an heauenly mistery and an holy thing yet hath it oftē tymes ben abused and that in the Primitiue churche when the religion of Chryste semed to be in hyghest perfection In the time of Tertullian and of S. Ciprian which was athousand and four hundred yeres ago wemen commenly toke the sacrament home with thē in theyr napkins layed it vp in theyr chests and receiued a portion of it in the morning before other meats This was an abuse of the sacrament therfore was it brokē In S. Ciprians and S. Augustines tyme yong babes as sone as they were Baptised receyued the Communion But that was a great abuse For by the doctryne of S. Paule the holy misteryes ought to be geuen vnto none but onely vnto suche as be able to vnderstand the meanyng therof to sudge the Lordes body and to declare his death And therfore now infantes when they be baptised receyue not the Communion In the tyme of S. Hierom sum portion of the holy Communiō was sent from the churche to the newe maried man and to his wyfe to be receyued at home This was a disorder of the sacrament and therfore now is not vsed S. Ireneus sayth that one Marcus a necromanser was wōt to enchaunte the cup of the sacrament of Christes bloud so that the liquour should seeme to increase multiplie from a litle to growe to a great quantitie This also was an horrible abuse of Christes holy sacraments Summe of late tyme haue receyued the communion for theyr purgation to cleare them selfe againste sum notorious slaunder And then the priest chaunged the wordes which comenly be vsed at the ministration and said thus Corpus domini nostri Iesu Christi sit tibi ad purgationem Sum others haue vsed to hang the Sacrament as an Agnus Dei before theyr breastes for a protection against the assaultes of the deuel all other wordly enemies S. Benet ministred the communiō vnto a woman that was dead it may well be thought that other did so as well as he For it is forbidden by generall consent in two counselles th one holden at Antifrodorum the other at Carthage No man can lightly denye but these were greate abuses For Christ appointed not the Sacrament of his laste supper that wemen should beare it home
haue vtterly chaunged and abolished the order of the olde church and do nothing but the contrarie And what euident profet y e Church of God hath gotten by it I thinke it a harde matter to declare You woulde haue the matter tourned ouer co sum general couÌ„sell as we would be coÌ„tend to staÌ„d by howbeit that you thinke wyll not be in your time Notwithstanding I dare boldly say such a CouÌ„cel wâ—…be a great while before ye shal be able to find any doctor or old councel to serue your purpose But though there were neuer suche a Councell yet trueth wil be trueth notwithstanding for the ConÌ„ell can not make the falshed trueth but the thing y â— is taken to be â—…rew it certifyeth only to be trew But what redresse can there be loked for of sutche a Councel where as no man shal be â—…udge or suffred to speak one way or other but only sutch as be opeÌ„ly and iustly accused fonÌ„d faltâ—… and where as he that is himselfe most out of order shal be head and refourmer of the whole Both parties ye say haue waded so â—…re 〈◊〉 y e now 〈◊〉 â—…an go no further therfore ye wolde haue eyther parte let other alone If you of your parte wolde haue done so when time was many a godly man had now bene aliâ—…e Where as you saye you would haue the sayinges of both parties weighed by the ballaÌ„te of the old hoctours ye see y t is oure only request and y e in y e matters ye wâ—… of I desyre euen so to betried But why throwe you awaye these balance and beyng so earnestly required why be ye so loth to shew forth but one old doctour of your side ye make me beleue ye wolde not haue the mater cum to trial Only ye set forth the emptye names of S Augustine of sainte Hierome of S. Chrisostome of sBasil of s. Ciprian of Tertullian of Treneus of Dionysius of the Councels c. as the Apothecaries oftentimes set forth their painted Boxes and nothing in them you shewe me onlye the names of the doctours whiche I knew afore but ye shewe me not one worde in them of the priuate masse or of the rest of the matters that lie betwen vs if ye coulde haue founde any thinge in them for your purpose I beleue you woulde not haue brought them emptie But that is a policie in the time of Seige wheÌ„ the Souldiers within beginne to want vitales to throwe forthe a feweloues ouer the walles that the enemie without maye thynke they haue stoore inough so geue ouer the Siege You say I slaunderously misreporte the late CouÌ„cel of ConstaÌ„ce O sir these words sauour to much of your cholar and might better haue ben spared I speake more fauourably of that Councell then I might haue done For the wordes of the Councel be these speaking namely of y â— CoÌ„munion vnder bothe kindes Perâ—… asserentes oppositum tanquam Haeretici arcendi sunt that is they that stubburnly defende maintain the contrarie that is to say they that stande in defence of that that Christ coÌ„maunded to be done the Apostelles whiche all the olde Catholik doctors and the whole Primitiue Church obserued ought to be punished so as is miet for Heretiks By these words they are called not Schihnatiks as I said but stubburn heretikes which is a great deal more odious you see therfore my reporte was more geÌ„tle then y t couÌ„cel deserued Where as you say we could neuer yet proue the error of one gene â—…al Councel I think your memory doth som what deceiue you For to passe by al other maters Albertus Pighius the greatest learned man as it is thought of your side hath founde sutch errours to ouâ—… hands for in his Ecclesia Hierarchia speking of y e ii Councel 〈◊〉 at Ephesus which you caÌ„ not denie but it was general yet toke part with the hereâ—…ike Abbat Eutyches against the catholike father Flaâ—…anus he wryteth thus Concilia vniuersalia etiam congregata legitimè vt benè ita perperam iniustè impiéque iudicare definire possunt Generall Councelles sayeth he yea euen suche as be lawfully summoned as they may conclude thinges wel so may they 〈◊〉 iudge and determine thinges rashely vniustly and wickedly And of the two CouÌ„celles holden of late yeres at Constance at Basil where as Pope Iohn Pope Eugenius were deposed he sayth plainly that they decreed bothe against reason and against nature and against all examples of antiquitie against the worde of God And yet bothe these councelles were called generall â—…e presse me sore that if I write you not a Bookâ—… of my proâ—…fes it wil be thought I do it Conscientia imbecillitatis For the distruste of the weakenes of my parte Bilike you haue forgotten wherfore you with all your company â—…ot longe sence openly refused to enter disputatioÌ„ with vs at Westminster Doubtles y â— gretest part thought it was as it was in dede Conscientia imbecillitatisi euen for distrust of y â— weakenes of your part And what thinke ye is there now iudged of you y â— beyng so loÌ„g time required yet can not be won to bring one sentence in your own defence I haue afore alleaged a few â–ª reasons of my parte which by order of disputatioÌ„ I was not bouÌ„d to do now let y â— world iudg which of vs two flieth conference I protest before God bring me but one sufficient authority in the matters I haue required and afterward I wil gently quietly coÌ„fer with you farther at your pleasure Wherfore forasmutche as it is goddes cause if ye meane simply deal simply betray not your right if ye may saue it by the speakinge of one worde The people must needes muse somwhat at your silence and mistrust your doctrin if it shal appear to haue no ground neither of the olde CouÌ„ceiles nor of the doctors nor of the Scripture nor anye alowed example of the primitiue Church to stande vpoÌ„ and so your fiftene hundred yeres the coÌ„sent of antiquitie and generalitie that ye haue so long and so much talkt of shal come to nothing For think not that anye wise man wil be so much your frende y â— in so weghtie matters wil be satisfied with your silence Where as you saye I am not altogether without enemyes I assuere you who so euer be enemie vnto me I for my part am enemy vnto no man but only wyshe that goddes trueth may be knowen of al meÌ„ But he that is enemye vnto me in this behalfe I feare me is enemy vnto sum other whome he wolde be lothe to name You suppressed ye say your first letters for that you saw they were to sower That had ben all one co me for sower words aâ—… not inough to quail the trueth Howebeit to my knowledg I gaue you no euill worde to encrese y â— humour But 〈◊〉 ye will still striue against nature as ye say ye haue done
places euen into mine own dioces yet not vnto me therby to discredit me in corners at my â—…irst cuming wherof I haue the greater cause to complain of your doynges ye made answere not onlye that it was your own but also y â— it was much abridged that y â— originall was twise asmuch Yf it be so the fault is your own that would so vnaduisedly bestowe your writinges As for my part as they came to me not by your sendinge but by very chaunce euen so did I cause them to be copied out iustly and truely without adding or diminishing of one letter and according haue I made out mine answere to the whole Nowe forasmuch as I vnderstand there 〈◊〉 certeine both honorable and worshipful y t would gladly haue our doinges to the print and so published these shal be to desire you for the bettering of your own cause to send me your own copie ful and large as ye say ye gaue it out at y e first y t I may do as I shal thinke good and you haue no cause to to think your self iniuried if I answer one parcell of your letters and not to the whole I pray you let me here from you with expeditioÌ„ for I mean plainly therfore haue caused the print to staie vpon your answere Thus I bid you farwell From Shireburn y e xxii of July An. 1560. Io. Sarum VNto this Letter D. Cole beynge bisides by messenger â—…arnestlye required would make no answere one waye or other Therfore vpon hys refusall it was thought good to answere his Letters as they were ⧠The Reply of the Bishop of Sarum to the Letter aboue written which D. Cole contrarie to euen dealing had geuen out and sent abroad not to the said Bishop to whom he wrote it but priuely and secretly vnto certain of hys own frendes THere came to my haÌ„bs of late by chaunce a Scroul set forthe in short broken sentences conteining an answer to the second Letters that I had sent vnto you before which as by certain familiar Phrases by that date by the subscription of your own name by other tokens appeared to me to be yours So by the vsinge ordering of thesame I had sum cause to think it shold not be yours especially for that beyng as it appeared writteÌ„ vnto me it was sent priuely abroad vnto others and not to me For I thought y â— you being a maÌ„ of this age credit would not haue bene ashamed of your own writinges or would haue concealed them froÌ„ him to whom you had directed theÌ„ or haue soght for a false light to set forth your matters in as MarchauÌ„tes sumtimes vse to do y â— better to vtter their sorie wares Moreouer I saw y t your words throughout were heaped vp with tauntes scornes and were somwhat to much steined with cholar to haue proceded froÌ„ a sober graue man as I euer toke you to be Thus being vncerteine of the trueth herein after I had sent ofteÌ„times to you to know whether you would auouch it for your own or no could neuer get word froÌ„ you by reason y â— you shifted your self would not be fouÌ„d I thoght it good to staie my selfe from answering vntil I might get certein knowledg of the authour At the last after I had assayed many waies could by no meanes hear froÌ„ you hauing no 〈◊〉 continuaunce in the Citie to staye the vntrue reportes which I herd werscattered by suÌ„ of your freÌ„ds I could not but before my departure hence make out mine answer vnto you as hauig cause to thinke the letters that were brought me should be his in whose name they were geuen abroad Firste where you haue made your answers seuerall set them so far of from the parcelles of my letters I gesse you did y t of very purpose that your reader might see your answer but not see what it was wherunto you answered Therefore I haue ioyned my sayinges your simply plainly both together without coulour or shadow that the indiffereÌ„t reader may haue all before his eyes and 〈◊〉 be y â— better able to iudg aright ¶ Sarum IN your second Letters I finde many words to small purpose It had bene 〈◊〉 better for you to haue alledged one sufficieÌ„t authority wherby I might haue learned that I loked for ¶ Cole IT liketh you thus to say that your Readers may thinke you touch me very sore where you discouer a great vntrueth in your wrytynge 〈◊〉 my purpose was to be taught to this mark onely I shot You for lack of good matter ansâ—… I speak not to the purpose not to your pur pose but to mine How oftentimes must I 〈◊〉 you I come not to teach but to learn The Reply of the Bishop of Sarum COntrarie to y â— Rueles of Rhetorik I sie you begin to 〈◊〉 and to enflame all your affections euen at the first Sobernes were much fitter for a doctor But your heats be such y t your freÌ„des haue shewed me you must be born w tal I neither discouer nor couer any vntrueth in my writing but as you know only vtter y â— very trueth For at Paules Crosse I required you or any of you to shewe the groundes of your religion if you had any that by indifferent conference the trueth the better might appear And this had bene to your purpose if ye had ment plainly to mine to But you run away in the myst and 〈◊〉 the net lest happely ye should be takeÌ„ and so purposly go about to blear your readers 〈◊〉 to couer the truth and hauing in very died nothing to alledg for your self yet ye make a countenaunce as though ye lackt nothig And so I grauÌ„t you folow your purpose and not mine Where you say ye cum only to learn and not to quarell he must niedes be your very frende y â— will beleue you Nowbeit the pretence of a learner may kepe your credite for a while saue you froÌ„ shewig what ye can say And therfore I read you vse it still But by your scoffes scornes it may pppeare you cum to controlle soner theÌ„ to learn God send vs both humbleâ—…esse of hart that we may content our selues to be taught ¶ Sarum IN my Sermons aswell at Powles Crosse as els where I required you to bryng forth of your parte eyther sum Scripture or sum olde Doctour or sum â—…ncient generall Councell or els sum â—…llowed example of y ◠〈◊〉 church For these are good groundes to builde vpon And I would haue merueiled that you broght forth nothing al this while sauing that I knewe you had nothing to bring ¶ Cole YOu require that is daungerous for me â—… you knowe Thereply Sarum 〈◊〉 it be daungerous to you bicause you stande bounde why do you not put it ouer to sum other of your syd that is not boâ—…d This shadow wil serue well before your â—…endes that will wink when you bid them
and see no more theÌ„ you wil haue them see But forasmuch as ye haue vsed this excuse so ofteÌ„ and so few wise men wil beleue it I wold think it good that now ye wold deuise sum other ¶ Sarum BUt now forasmuch as ye seke shifts and will not cum to answere I accoÌ„pt him vnwise that knoweth not your meaning ¶ Cole WEll rayled you shal finde that we haue more then all you shal be able to answer when time shall require The Reply Sarum THis answer notwithstaÌ„ding it is bitter yet bicause it is vntrue and beareth more smoke theÌ„ flame it moueth me the lesse Here I misse in you sum part of your courtesie These maters would be tried by reasonig better then by scoldyng By likelihod sum other maÌ„ had moued your cholar for my words be as far from rayling as yours are from modestie Where you write that you haue more theÌ„ all we shal be able to answere if euery crake were a good substaÌ„tial argument I were coÌ„fu ted But notw tstandinge these terrible threates yet in coÌ„clusion as your custom is ye bring nothing The arguments that you say we shall neuer be able to answere are sweard fyre suche as of late dayes ye vsed so plentiously for lacke of others And yet as strong as forcible as they were God be thanked they haue ben fully answered to the great vnspeakable comfort of goddes people and to your shame confusion for euer As touching the olde doctours and Councelles I wold ye had a terme assigned you ad exhibenduÌ„ In the meane season for lacke of other witnes ye maye write teste 〈◊〉 as Princes doo Sarum YE aske me why ye should be counted obstinate Doubtles I for my parte haue a better opinion of you and trust you are not so But if a man withstand and open trueth hauing nothing wherwith to defend him self I remit him to your own iudgement whether he maye be counted obstinate or no. ¶ Cole THese wordes glittereth Golde like and disclose in you no will to 〈◊〉 my 〈◊〉 I 〈◊〉 for lack of 〈◊〉 The reply Sarum IT pleaseth you to make yourself mery with these words I alledged vnto you s. Augnstin S. Ambrose S. Basill S. Chrisostome S Nierome Gelasius Theophilus and S. Gregorie Therfore it is vntrue that ye saye I had no wil to satisfy your demauÌ„d Now bringe you but one of all these or any other of your syd in y â— matters that lie now betwene vs to satisfy my demauÌ„d and as I haue said you shal haue the victory You say we lack stufe to proue out pourpose O woulde to God your stufe and ours might be laid together theÌ„ should it sone appear howe true it is that ye say how faithfully ye haue vsed the people of God ¶ Sarum YOu put me well in remembrance of mine office that forasmuch as I am a Bishop should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is redy to yelde an accoÌ„pt of such things as I teach I thank God so I do haue done to my power both priuately and openly But if this be my deutie and required at my hands what priueledge haue you that you only may not allowe out one sentence to the confirmation of your doctrine ¶ Cole YOu say much and proue nothing Your trueth is so open that no man can sie it but your own side I haue no priuilege when reason and Law shall will me to do it you shall finde it Now I stande bound to the contrarie as you know The reply Sarum I Speake not to muche as your selfe can witnesse Nowe muche I proue shall reste vpon the wisedome and iudgement of the reader bothe the trueth of oure parte and the vntruth of your parte is so open that now God be thanked the whole world is able to see it onlesse there be sum such as hath eyes and will not see Yet Iustificata est sapientia Dei à filiis suis. Ye saye you will speake when reason and lawe shall will you to doo it Of the lawe I will say nothing but only this by the waye bicause you are a doctour of law what Law haue you that 〈◊〉 driue a man to prone a negatiue or if ye haue no Lawe â–ª what reason haue you that I should do it But me thinketh both reason and humanitie wold ye should haue answered me sumwhat specially being so often and so openly required At the least you should haue alledged Au gustine Ambrose Chrisostome Nierome as ye did sumtimes alledge the decrie of the Councell of Ephesus the first for the Communion vnder one kinde whiche decrie neuer was yet found nor neuer wil be Nowebeit bicause you speake of reason wheras a man hath nothing to say it is good reason he kepe silence as you do ¶ Sarum YOu woulde haue men thinke I 〈◊〉 answeringe bicause I am a Bishop This in Sophistry is called Paralogismus a non causa vt causa I alledged the place and audience where I spake and not only mine office For I thought it might appeare sum want or discretion to call that doctrine into questrioÌ„ which I knew was grouÌ„ded vpon gods word and authorized set forth by y â— Quenes Maiesty by y â— asseÌ„te of y â— who le realm ¶ Cole I Must niedes think sum parte of your writing made by sum smatterer as here for a shewe of skill in Logik brought in a place of Logik out of al purpose How frame you this to your purpose â—…nd you shall finde me therin true as happely I shall make you to sie if your driue me to it Your 〈◊〉 against transubstantiation is yet to be proued and no man bouÌ„d to beleue it And being as true as ye would haue it seme yet may you â—…nforme the weak and willing to learn The Reply Sarum YE do me to much wrong that will not allow me thus much Logik of mine own But it was euer your grace to beare the people in hand that all we are altogether vnlearned and knowe nothing Whiche thing if it were â—…rew it wer y â— more to your shame thus openlye to be confounded through the whole world by men of so smal learning Howbeit thus it pleased you to talk for want of better reason Ye cal me a smatterer in Logik as if your self wer as perfit in Logik as Aristotle And yet I remeÌ„ber well I vnderstode as muche logik as this cumeth to and sum deale more for twenty yeres ago ywis when you by your own reporte were but a simple smatterer in diuinitie Neither did I bringe it in for a she we of skil as you say but to declare your ouersight lacke of skil which appeareth now not only in diuinitie but also in logik For where you say I brought it in out of all purpose me thinke you haue forgotten sum parte of your olde rueles and know not what Paralogismus à non causa vt causa â–ª meaneth Which is when so euer in
were woÌ„t to haue it in their coÌ„mon disputatioÌ„s in y â— paruise Scholes in Oxford yf it serue only for them y â— dispute dialecticè ye as ye pretend be are the person onely of a lerner cum not to dispute why theÌ„ did ye alledge against me the custome of the Scholes the disputation oâ—… maisters of art in the vniuersities ye knowe they vse there to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dialecticè none otherwise And that I spake herein I spake onely vpon occasion of your own wordes Howe shall I thinke ye remember your Aristotle if ye so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your own letters ¶ Sarum BUt that ye wil not do and ye knowe why 〈◊〉 ye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But 〈◊〉 ye râ—…quire to se our groundes And what better ground can we haue on our side then that Doctour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 man on the other side can 〈◊〉 no ground to stand against 〈◊〉 ¶ Cole RIdetur chorda qui semper aberrat eadeÌ„ Doctor Colâ—… proue it wheÌ„ it 〈◊〉 to his turn Thereply Sarum SEing for lacke of Doctoures ye answere me with Poetes it shall do well to answere you again with the same Decies repeâ—… placebunt And yet when ye come so often with the pretence of desire to be taught and of your reâ—… if I liste to 〈◊〉 as ye do why may not I as wel say to you Ridetur chorda qui semper aberrat eadem As for the prouing herof ye do wel to take a day In the mean season geue others leaue to think the trueth ¶ Sarum HE that wil make any Innoâ—…arion say ye must geue a reason of hys 〈◊〉 O master doctor this reason 〈◊〉 most against your selfe for ye haue misliked and put away the most part of the order of y â— Primitiue church and yet ye neuer gaue good reason of your doinges ¶ Cole IN the end of my 〈◊〉 ye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The reply Sarum ANd there shall you fynde the Reply ¶ Sarum YE say ye are in possession No ye were sometime ye are not nowe and when ye were ye had no right title or good euidence to claime by No more then they which sometime sate in Moses chaire or they y t saide Nos sumus 〈◊〉 Abrahami we are the children of Abraham therby claimed their possession Therfore ye were possessores 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and for that cause ye ar now 〈◊〉 and orderly remoued ¶ Cole VVHen ye meddle with 〈◊〉 ye shewe 〈◊〉 I am 〈◊〉 in possession of all that euer I taught and if you put me out of possession by 〈◊〉 I ought to be restored Had not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the olde lawÌ„ good title to sit in Moses chaire What ye forget your self yes perbie The 〈◊〉 â—…ccompted no man maloe fidei possessorem after that he hath continued in possession an â—…ored yeres But I pardon you for mistaking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is not your 〈◊〉 The Reply Sarum I Haue not so litle skil in y e law but I vnderstand what are malae fi dei possessores And as now gods name be praised it is wel knowen y t ye haue been they ye are put out of possessioÌ„ not by violence of maÌ„ but by y e very force of gods trueth which so deuoureth consumeth 〈◊〉 error falshed as Moyses 〈◊〉 deuoured swalowed vp the fained serpeÌ„ts of y t Sorcerers If ye claime to be restored be not agreued to shew your euidence Where ye say the Bishops and Priests y t wer in Christs time had good title to sit in Moyses chaire I graunt you they had euen as good title as ye had to sit and beat rule in the Church of Christ. And therfore your example misliketh me neuer a whyte 〈◊〉 ye knowe Christ called them Fures latrones theues and robers and saide vnto them Vos ex patre diabolo estis ye are y â— children of the deuil Ye say the law accompteth no man possessorem malae fidei y t hath continued in possession one hundred yeares Which thing notw tstanding I can be content to gauÌ„t you to be true in the ciuile law yet is it not true in the law of God that as ye know is proued by diuers authorities eueÌ„ in your own decrees Dist. 8. There is alleged s. Augustin whose words are these Veritate manifestata cedat consuetudo veritati Nemo cousuetudinem rationi veritati praeponat quia consuetudinem ratio veritas semper excludit After y â— trueth is once found out let custom geue place vnto the truth Let no man set custom before truth and reasoÌ„ for reason and trueth euermore put custom to silence Likewise S. Gregory and his wordes are these Si consuetudinem opponas adâ—…uertendum est quod Dominê° dicit Ego sum via veritas vita non dicit Ego sum 〈◊〉 Et certè quaelibet consuetudo quantumuis vetusta quantumuis vulgata veritati omnino est postponenda Yf ye lay custoÌ„ for your selfe ye must remember that Christ faith I am the way the trueth and the lyfe he saith not I am custó And doubtles any custom be it neuer so auncient neuer so commen yet muste it nedes yelde to the trueth Likewise S. Ciprian whose wordes be these Si solus Christus audiendus est â—…on debemus atteÌ„dere quid aliquis ante nos facieÌ„dum putarit sed quid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit Neque enim hominis consuetudinem sequi debemus sed veritatem Dei cum per Esaiam Prophetam Deu â–ª loquatur dicat sine causa colunt me docentes mandaâ—…a doctrinas hominum If onely Christ must be herd we may not wey what anye man hath thoght good to do that hath been before vs but what Christ â—…ath first done y â— is before all men For we may not folowe the customes of man but the trueth of God specially for that God sayeth by the Prophet Esay They worship me in vain teaching the commaundementes and doctrines of men Thus ye see euen by youre own decrees that custom against the trueth is a very simple grouÌ„de to build vpon And like as ye vse to say Nullum tempus praescribit Regi Som thynketh of good right â–ª cye ought as well to saye Nullum tempus praescribit Deo Otherwise Antichrist shall cum and sit in possession of the holy place and beare himself as if he were God that God knoweth howe many hundred yeres together And yet at the last he shal be but. Antichrist sit he neuer so high For prescription of an hundred yeares can not make the falshode be to the trueth nor can any prescription be auaylable in your own lawe onlesse it haue bonum titulum and that in Religion must nedes be the word of God Which word forasmuche as ye haue not to alledge as ye your selfe knowe no man better all the face of your prescripcion is but vayne And therfore ye were as I said possessores mà lae fidei And ye
had confessed ther wer opeÌ„ errours in the masse notwithstaÌ„ding Latomus a doctour of your own had confessed a great abuse in the CoÌ„munion vnder one kind â–ª notwitstanding Pius ii Bishop of Rome had sene and confessed great abuse in the restrainynge of Priestes mariage yet in the same councel they concluded among theÌ„ selues y t no maner of thing should be changed at all that had bene once receiued in their Câ—…urch Therfore these be not fond excuses y â— world seeth they be to true ¶ Sarum BOth parties ye say haue waded so far herein that nowe they can go no farther and therfore ye would haue â—…ther partye let other alone This ye say now because ye see ye are called to an audit and are not able to make your accompte But if ye of your part had been so indifferent when time was many a godly man had now been alyue ¶ Cole YE forget your self I say not so 〈◊〉 loke bet 〈◊〉 in the place The Reply Sarum IF ye meant not so it skilleth not greatly It is to small purpose Consider it well and ye shall finde my conclusion true ¶ Sarum WHere ye say ye would haue the sayinges of both parties weâ—…ed by y â— balaunce of the olde doctors ye se that is our speciall request vnto you And that in the matters you wryt of I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so to be tryed But why throw ye away these Balance And being so ofteÌ„ times required why be ye so loth to shew forth but one old doctor of your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make 〈◊〉 beleue ye would not haue the maâ—… cum to tryall Only ye set forth the empty names of S. Augustine of sainct 〈◊〉 of S. Chrisostome of S. Bastll of S. Ciprian of TertulliaÌ„ of Ireneus of Dionysius of the couÌ„celles c. As y â— Apotheâ—…aryes set forâ—…h theyr painted Bores and oftentymes nothinge in them Ye shewe me onely the names of the doctors which I knew before But ye shewe me not one worde in them of the priuate masse or of the 〈◊〉 of the matters that lye betwen vs. If ye could haue found any thing in them for your purpose I beleue ye wolde not haue brought them empty Ye say all these matters be already determined But where I pray you or in what generall councell This is it that I would so gladly knowe at your hand and that ye say ye haue and yet so vngently kepe it from me ¶ Cole THen begin if ye think the tyme will serue 〈◊〉 put it ouer till another tym All these be but wordes often repeted and answered alredy The Reply Sarum I Haue offered and begon in vain For ye kepe your selfe of and wil not come to answer These words I graunt haue ben vpon good occasion oftentimes repeted and I thinke ye would say some what to them if ye were able ¶ Sarum YE say I 〈◊〉 misreporte the late Councell of Constance O good master doctor these words saâ—… to much of your choller and might better haue been spared I spake more fauourably of y â— councell then I might haue done The words of the councel be these speaking namely of y â— communion vnder both kinds Pertinaciter assereÌ„tes 〈◊〉 pofitum tanquam Heretici â—…rcendi sunt By these wordes they that maintein the manifest ordinaunce of Christ the practise of the Apostles are not called 〈◊〉 as I sayd but 〈◊〉 wilful heretikes Ye se therfore my reporte was more fauourable then y â— couÌ„â—… deserued ¶ Cole YE say the councell of Constance openly pronounced against Christ. Wherein Ipray you 〈◊〉 the fathers there sayd who so sayth it is of necessity to receiue vnder both kindes and the 〈◊〉 custom of the churche is sacriledge 〈◊〉 to be taken as an 〈◊〉 yet non heretik but in a wrong opiniâ—… Then be like ye can bringe in sum text where Christ coÌ„maunded it should not be receiued but vnder both kinds which ye caÌ„ neuer do So is youre report of this councel slanderous still Read 4. Canonem concilâ—… Constantienfis The Reply Sarum IT grcueth you that I should say y â— councell decreed against christ But consider it a right ye shall find it Christ as ye know appointed the Communion vnder bothe kindes and commaunded his disciples to do y â— same as he had done it Therfore he that commauÌ„deth the contrary and that vnder the paine of heresy pronounceth opeÌ„ly against Christ. Ye call it an approued custome of the church Yet ye remembers Ciprians wordes that be alledged in your own decrees Christus non dicit ego sum consuetudo sed ego sum veritas that is to say Chryst saith not I am custum but I am the trueth But if custume might iustly preuayle agaynste an open and playne truethe I praye you where was youre Communyon vnder one kynd euer at any tyme sence the beginning of the world allowed for a generall customeâ—… Or being but a particuler custoÌ„ as it is and that receiued onely oâ—… your selse in what generall councel was it euer allowed Ye say your own ordinaunces may not be broken without y â— anthority of a general Councel And dare ye without any suche authority only vpon a vain and particuler custome to break the vniuersall ordenaunce of Christ Ye saye men are not to be iudged heretikes that withstaÌ„d your order herein but onely to be in a wrong opinion Here I se that ye and your brethren agree not in iudgemeÌ„t both together And therfore ye shall the lesse marueile yf we disagree from you mistrust you both For Hossius a doctoure of your syde is not afrayed to call it heresy and sacrilege his words be plaine Nunc haeresin profert séque pollicetur ostensurum omnes esse impios qui vtriusque speciei coÌ„munionem laicis denegaÌ„t And again An autem idem in regno tuo factuÌ„ non vidimus vbi Calix per summum sacrilegium vsurpatur And agayn vellem autem vnam mihi terram aliquam ostendi vbi priuata libidine calix vsurpari coeptus est in quanoÌ„ è vestigio multae sint aliae quideÌ„ horribiles haereses consequute Thus to do that thinge that Christ and his Apostles and all the olde fathers did in the primitiue Churche without exception this doctour concludeth it to be an horrible heresy And if it were taken for no heresye as ye saye it was not then was your Councell to muche to blame that gaue so cruell sentence againste the people of Bohema for that they thought it necessary to vse both kindes accordingee to the institucion of Christ and pronounced thus against them Tanquam Haeretici arcendi sunt For yf they take them for no heretikes â–ª they did them great wrong to punishe them as heretikes And yet is your doctour 〈◊〉 to muche to blame to condemne any thing for heresy without any word of God and speciallye without the authority of any olde doctor or any generall councell Ye ask me what text I caÌ„ bring forth
that agree not in doctryne with you â–ª are not the Quenâ—…s frendes whyche ye gather by pour owne syde in Quene Maries râ—…ygne But I neuer brake aâ—…ity with any man for dissent 〈◊〉 râ—…ligion I â—…epe still my olde frendes be theyr religion good or bad The reply Sarum TO the first part therof I wyll not saye so muche as â–ª I were able God sone confounde al them that be or shal be otherwise If ye loue your frendes notwithstandinâ—…e theyr religion ye are more â—…itable then sume of your brethren For ye remember how vnfreÌ„dly sume of you haue vsed their frends onely for dissent in religioÌ„ onlesse perhaps ye will say ye imprisoned thâ—…m and burnte them euen for very loue ¶ Sarum YE suppressed ye saye your first letters for that they were to sowâ—… That had bene all one to me for sowre wordes are not inought to quailâ—… the trueth Howbeit to my knowledge I gauâ—… you no ill wordes to encrease that humour But if ye striue stil agaist nature as ye say ye haue done nowe conquere the reast of your affections to I doubt not but we shall sone agree ¶ Cole AS though mynâ—… affection only caused me to dissent from you in religion Whiche argument may 〈◊〉 you well in Rhâ—…torike but no where els I wene The reply Sarum WHen ye shal bring me any such authority as I haue required of you wherfore ye should dissent from vs in these pointes then wil I graunt ye dissent not only for affection If ye be able to bring norhing I truste ye will pardon me to saye as I saye This argument ye saye woulde serue me in rethorike no where els Thus ye wryt to make youre reader belâ—…e as ye haue reported in places that the grounde of my Sermons is rhethorike and not diuinitye Wherein ye were sumwhat to blame for your so light cre dit For if ye had heard me youre selfe as ye neuer did I thynke ye might haue hard sumwhat els theÌ„ rhetorike But it appeareth ye huÌ„t very narowly for faultes y t accoÌ„pt learning for a fault If I wer skil full in rhetorike as ye woulde haue me appeare onelye to discredite me with the people yet can I not vnderstande wherefore that thing shoulde be so faultye in me that was sumtymes commendable in S. Augustin in saint Chrisostome in saint Hierom in Arnobius in Lactantius in Cypryane in Tertullian and in many other olde godly fathers for all these as ye know were great rhetoriciaÌ„s But as in the boke of the kinges the Assyrians when they were ouerthrowen by the Iewes cried out Dii moÌ„tium sunt dii illorum the gods of the hils be theyr gods as though Siluanus or Pan or Faunus had conquered them and not the true lyuing God of Israell Euen so ye at this tyme after ye see your selfe scattered and put to flight cry out it is rhetorik and eloquence that hath ouerthrowen you and not the force of the gospel of Iesus Christ Likwise was Porphirius woÌ„t to say that S. Paule perswaded so farre and won so many to the faith of Christ not for that he had any trueth of his side but only for that with his eloquence and other subtility he was able to abuse the simplicity of the people But alas smal rhetorike wold suffice to shew how little ye haue of your syde to alledg for your self ¶ Sarum HEre I leue putting you eâ—…tsones in remeÌ„brauÌ„ce y t being so oft so opeÌ„â—… desired to shew forth one Scripture or one allowed example of the Primatiue church or one olde doctour or one auncient councel in the matters before named yet hetherto ye haue kept back and brought nothing And that if ye stande so still it maye well be thought ye do it conscientia imbecillitatis For that ther was nothing to be brought ¶ Cole This place is aboue answered The Reply Sarum Douâ—…tles by sayiÌ„g nothing as all the reast ¶ Cole NO we forasinuche as ye make this a great foundation against vs that we varye from the Primitiue church and therfore Make simple soules wene that we were in the wronge syde here I praye you shewÌ„e me youre opinion whether we are bounde to do all thinges whyche we fâ—…nde by sufficient authority were in 〈◊〉 in the Primitiue Church And because ye shall not be herein squemiâ—… I shall here my selfe begin to shew you mine I 〈◊〉 of the pinion that the councell of Constance was in this matter I thinke it an errour I am bouÌ„d to do as the Primitiue Church did Where the 〈◊〉 customaâ—… vseth the â—…ontrary I 〈◊〉 an example and no bonde I dâ—…ny not but these examples were to be folowed and not to ye broken at euery mans wyll and pleasure vntill by coâ—…en assent other order were â—…aken But if ye seke olde wryters and find me that the church this sixe hundred yeares obâ—…rued 〈◊〉 many thinges which were praciysed and accoÌ„yâ—… for good holesome and holy in the Primitiue church and therebâ—… 〈◊〉 vs in error this were a wrong 〈◊〉 For the church of Christ hath his childhod his manhod his hoarheares and as to one man that is mete to 〈◊〉 in one age is not mete for him in another So where manye thinges requisire and necessary in the Primitiue church which in our dayes were lyke to do more harme then good This is no new 〈◊〉 phantasy but 〈◊〉 1100. yeares ago by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 morose without reproch I shewed you and read you the place at 〈◊〉 as ye may 〈◊〉 and it were to long to make rehearsall of 〈◊〉 wordes here We might by taking contrary opinion herin 〈◊〉 led to thinke we ought to receâ—… the Sacrament euermore after supper and not â—…astinge But S. Augustin sayth that Christ 〈◊〉 thys to his church to take order how and in what sort the Sacramentes should be receyued and vsed Wherin he sayth it is a marucâ—…ous insolent kind of mandnes to 〈◊〉 that which is receyued in the church where the custome is not against an â–ª commaundement in Scripture S. Peter cauâ—…ed as Damasus saith a commaâ—… that 〈◊〉 womaÌ„ should come 〈◊〉 to the churche S. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 order that the 〈◊〉 shoulde haue al thinges in commen and so liue 〈◊〉 as in the late reformed order of Saint Benets munkes doth most godly appeare And not many yeares sence the same order in all Cathedrall Churches was obscrued Yet I wene it were an erroure to holde of necessity it should be so still Or to say the church were in an errour because it hath suffered a contrary custume to creâ—…e in Then if the 〈◊〉 of the church maye break thaâ—… was in the Primitiue church commaunded it is lesse offence to leaue vndone that was at the beginning practised and no commaundement geuen for other to folow the same Thus much I thought to put you in remembraunce of for such matters as ye touche in 1. 7. 42. 43. nombers The Reply Sarum IN the conclusion ye take greate aduaÌ„tage
to answer many thiÌ„gs in one Wherein your wordes because they came flowing down in aboundaunce lyke a Streame they caryed away a great deale of â—…ime and baggage with them First where ye graunte that ye of your syde haue varied and do yet vary from the custome of the Primitiue churche I can not but commend your plaines therin in telling the trueth But where then is your antiquitie becum where be your auncient doctoures Where be the fiftene hundred yeares that ye haue so much talked of If ye woulde graunt the same in the pulpit opeÌ„ly before y e people that we require the vse and order of the Primitiue churche and that ye of your parte maintain your priuate masse your supremacy your vnknowen prayers and the most parte of your religion contrary to thesame that our doctrin is olde and that yours is new If ye woulde but graunte this simply plainly before the people we woulde desyer no more at your handes But ye say further that the examples of the Apostles and doctours vinde you not that in theyr tyme the church was but an infaÌ„t and that many thinges that were good for her in that age would be hurtfull to her in this age And therto notwithstanding your recognisaunce ye alledge S. Augustin and S. Ambrose wherin I haue cause sumwhat to 〈◊〉 at your doinges that nowe can so franckely bring in your doctoures to so smal purpose afore in matters of weght touching the greatest part of the contencion y t standeth â—…etwene vs durst not once name one doctor for feare of youre Recognisaunce At the last ye conclude that it were an error to say we are bouÌ„d of necessity to folow the vse of the Primitiue churche To make you a full and a clear answer hereunto I must nedes vse this distinction There were sum orders in y e Primitiue church commaunded by God and sum other were deuised by men for the better trainyng of y e people Such orders as were commaunded by God may not be chaunged in any case only because God commaunded theÌ„ For as God is euerlasting so is hys worde and commaundement euerlasting Of the other syde suche orders as haue ben deuised by men may be brokeÌ„ vpon sum good consideracion onelye because they were men that deuised theÌ„ For as men them selfe be mortall so all theyr wisedomes and inuentions be but mortall As that the communion should be vsed in the mornynge or at night That womeÌ„ should cum to the church ether couered or opeÌ„ faced wherin ye say Saint Peter toke order That the ministers goods shoulde be all in comen or otherwyse c. These other lyke were things appointed and ordered by men and therfore were neuer vsed in all places of one sorte But as they were brought in by men so might they be dissolued brokeÌ„ by men In these things I graunt the exaÌ„ples of y e doctours or Apostles bynd vs not In these thinges it were an errour to saye we are bounde of necessitie to folow the vse of y e Primitiue church These and other like thinges they be that S. Ambrose speaketh of whom ye at Westminster alledged in the case ye then entreated of directly making against youre selfe And we when we heard you name him first marueled muche what ye ment to medle with hym aboue al others For as touching y t commen prayers to be had in a straunge tong whiche matter we had then in haÌ„d S. Ambrose semeth of purpose to controlle both you your brethren in maner one whole chapter through wrytinge vpon y t. xiiii chap. 1. Cor. And farther the examples that he vseth in the place where ye alledged hym are these That the deacon in the Primitiue churche vsed to preache and in his tyme preached not and that women in the Primitiuâ—… churche vsed to baptyse in his 〈◊〉 baptysed not and that in 〈◊〉 â—…tiue church the Sacrament of Baptysme was ministred at all tymes indifferentlye without difference of dayes and that in his time it was ministred onely vpon certain daies And yet in your church contrary to the order of s. Ambrose both women baptise deacons preach and children are baptised euerye day without difference of tyme. Thus ye would seme to folow S. Ambrose and yet alledge hym in suche places where youre selfe moste of all varye from hym But perhaps your mind was occupied or ye had not theÌ„ leysure to marke hym better Hetherto I thinke we agree y t touchiÌ„g such things as haue been ordeyned by men we are not bouÌ„d of necessity to the order of y t Primitiue church But of the other parte I say y t such thinges as God 〈◊〉 coÌ„mauÌ„ded precisely by hys word may neuer be broken by any custome or consent And such be the thynges y t we now require at your hands not deuised by men but commauÌ„ded by God to last for euer Onlesse ye wil happely say as Montanus did that God hath reuealed both mo thinges and also better thinges vnto you then euer he did vnto his Apostles or els as Manicheus said that the Apostle sawe nothing but onely in speculo in aenigmate or as your doctour Siluester Prierias saith Indulgentiae non habent authoritatem ex verbo Dei sed habent authoritatem ab Ecclesia Romana quia maior est Pardons sayth he haue no ground of gods worde but they haue theyr grouÌ„d of y e church of Rome which is a great deale more The cup which ye haue takeÌ„ froÌ„ the people is not a ceremony but a part of the Sacrament And as good right as ye had to take that part away so good right had ye to take away also the other and so to leaue the people nothing atal And therfore y t old father Gelasius saith aut integra percipiant aut ab integris arceantur ether let theÌ„ receine y e hole SacrameÌ„t y t is to say vnder both kindes or els let theÌ„ be put from y e hole By which words of the olde doctor Gelasius it may appeare y t onlesse both partes of the SacrameÌ„t be receiued together the Sacrament is mangled not whole Again to pray in such a tong as the people may vnderstande and therby be edified is not a ceremony to be changed at mans pleasure but the commaundement of God for Paul wheÌ„ he had spoken long therof concludeth at the end Si quis est Propheta aut spiritualis sciat quod quae scribo domini sunt praecepta If any maÌ„ be a Prophet or spiritual let him wel knowe y e the things y e I wryt are the commaundemeÌ„ts of God Prayer in y t vulgare knoweÌ„ tong S. Paule saith is the coÌ„maundemeÌ„t of God and not an order taken by man Again for any one man to take vpon him to be vniuersal Bishop of the hole churche S. Gregorye sayth it is both against the Gospel of Christ and also against the olde canons and aâ—…cient orders of the churche
your wayes from my waies saith the Lorde It is a daungerous thyng for a mortall man to controlle or fynd fault wyth the wisdom of the immortall God Tertullian an olde father of y â— church sheweth vs the wilfulnes of maÌ„s hart after it hath once enterprysed to presume a lytle agaynste Gods truth and ordinaunce Praeâ—… scripturas faciunt vt post 〈◊〉 contra scripturas faciunt â–ª Fyrste saith he they attempte sumwhat besyde the scriptures to th enteÌ„t that afterward they maye gather courage and boldnes to do contrary to the scriptures At the end they procead as far as the Scribes and Pharisies that for maintenaunce of theyr owne tradicions despised and brake the commaundementes of God For redresse therem there is no better waye then to folowe S. Paules councel here and to haue recourse to Goddes holy worde Saint Ambrose saith Interrogemus Petrum Interrogemus Paulum si verum volumus inuenire If we will fynd out the truth and be put out of doubt saith Saint Ambrose let vs harken what Peter Paule will say vnto vs. Saint Cyprian sayth Hinc schismata oriuntut quia caput non quaeâ—… ad fontem non reditur caelestis magistri praecepta non seruaÌ„tur Hereof saith Saint Cyprian aryse schismes diuisions for that we seke not to the heade nor haue recourse to the spryng nor kepe the commaundementes of the heauenly master Tertulliâ—… saith Haec ratio contra omnen haeresim valet hoc veruÌ„ est quod primum fuit This reason saith he is able to confound al maner he â–ª resies That thing is true y r was first appointed O that our aduersaries and all they that stand in the defence of the Masse this day woulde coÌ„tente them selfe to be tudged by thys rule O that in all the controuersies that lye betwen vs and theÌ„ they woulde remyt the iudgemente vnto Godes worde So shoulde we sone agree ioyne together So shoulde we delyuer nothynge vnto the people but that we haue receyued at Godes hand And if there be any here that haue had or yâ—…t hath any good opinioÌ„ of the Masse I beseche you for Godes sake euen as ye tender youre owne saluation suffer not your self wilfully to be led away tunne not blyndlye to yâ—…ur owne confusion Thinke with your self it was not for nought that so many of your bretherne rather suffered them selues to dye to abyde all maner extremitie and cruelty then they woulde be partakers of that thinge that you reken to be so holy Let their death let their asshes let theyr bloud that was so aboundantlye shed before youre â—…ies sumwhat preuaile with you and mout you Be not ruled by your wilfull affections Ye haue a good zeale and mynde towardes God Haue it according vnto the knowledge of God The Iues had a zeale of God and yet they crucifyed the sonne of God Searche the scriptures there shall ye fynde euerlastyng lyfe There shall ye learn to iudge your selfe and your owne doinges that ye be not iudged of the Lorde If euer it happen you to be present againe at the masse thinke but thus with your selfe what make I here What profyte haue I of my doinges I heare nothyng I vnderstand nothyng I am taught nothing I receyue nothynge Christe bad me take I take nothynge Chryste bad me â—…ate I eate nothing Christ â—…ad me drink I drink nothing Is this the institucion of Christ Is this the Lordes supper Is this the right vse of y â— holy misteryes Is this it that Paule deliuered vnto me Is this it that Paule receiued of the Lorde Let vs say but thus vnto our selfe and no doubt God of his mercy wil open our heartes we shall see our errours and content our selfe to be ordâ—…ed by the wisdome of God to do that God will haue vs doo to beleue that God will haue vs beleue to worship that God wyll haue vs worship So shall we haue comforte of the hoâ—…y mysteries So shall we receyue the fruytes of Chrystes death So shall we be 〈◊〉 of Christes bodye and bloud Sâ—… shall Christ truly dwell in vs and we in him so shall all errour be taken from vs So shall we ioyne al together in gods truth So shal we all be able with one hart one spirite to know and to glorifie the only y â— true and the liuing God â–ª and hys only begotten sunne Iesus Christ to whom both with the holy ghost be all honour and glory for euer and euer Amen An Index or table of the most notable thinges and wordes conteined in thys work A A 〈◊〉 of the bread if they be worshipped it is â—…dolatry 141. they are vnâ—…nown of the peo 〈◊〉 141. b. Accidentium substaÌ„tia 65. b â—…doratioÌ„ of y r bread 137. b a new 〈◊〉 138. very daungerous 139 Agnus 〈◊〉 128. b Albertus Pigghius look Pighius Altar must be made of ston whi 149. 〈◊〉 Antyquitye boasted in vain 106 Antiquity of the papists religioÌ„ 49. b Apostles knoledge in MoÌ„tanus 〈◊〉 109 Apostles churche an infant 111 Apâ—…l â—…rom Pope to counsel forbod 93 argâ—…mentes gathered of D. Colâ—…s wordsagainst â—…he Pope most effecâ—… 92 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 â—…ble â–ª 〈◊〉 147 ArgumeÌ„t of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 47 ArgumeÌ„t of D. 〈◊〉 â–ª very 〈◊〉 110. b. of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â–ª touching y â— church 111. b. 〈◊〉 propoâ—…ded â—…y Satum vnpossible to be proued by the papistes 4. b AsseueracioÌ„ trewâ—… is sufficient prouâ—… in the law 46 Authorities papists do forge wheÌ„ they laâ—… 41 B Baptim abused 126 b. for the dead after y r dead ibideÌ„ Baptim ministered at al times indifferently 108 Baptizynge for the dead 92 Basil counsel erred 91 Bishop of Constantinople attempted the supremacy 15 Bishop vniuersal 47 Bishop vniuersall against gospell and old canons 110 Bishop onlye must coÌ„secrat the church why 149 Bishop muste were purple saÌ„dals why 148. b. Bohemyshe people vnmercifully delt withall 85 Bold offer of SaruÌ„ 162 bound not to dispute 75 Bread remaineth in the sacrameÌ„t 140 Bread wourshiped 137. b a new deuis 138. Idolatri 139. b Bread sacramentall must be rouÌ„d why 150 Bread sacramentall diuided in three why 156 Buâ—…ers Caluins reasons answered by the Papistes how 7 Camotenses 64. b Canon of the masse 135 Chalice must be of sil uer or gold 150 Children sing in the church with men wemen 69. b Christs body not suf 〈◊〉 blest alredi 136. offred by the priest ibidem Christ hath nied of our praiers 136 Christs sacrifice for â—…s euery day 169. â—… Christ and his 〈◊〉 no infants 111 Christs flesh honorable 142. his 〈◊〉 is to be 〈◊〉 eateÌ„ in heauen 143 Christâ—… death applied vnto vs howe 169. be â–ª Church may not be halowed but of a bishop 〈◊〉 149 Church is ladi of her own lawes handmaid of christ 110. b Church an infant in thapostles tyme. 106. b Churche may not be reformed w t hout ge nâ—…rall consent 114 Church can not 〈◊〉