I haue in this point by denying that there bee swarued from the sacred word of God from the iudgement of the holie Churches and writings of the most worthy noble instruments which God hath at all times giuen to be the guides and lights in the same And if it can be prooued that I haue gone awrie from the trueth but an heire breadth I will reuoke it for trueth is to bee bowed vnto and reuerenced wheresoeuer shee sheweth her sweete face of all that looke to haue any part in her Marke also their writings as they shall come foorth and see wherein they can conuince me of any error falsehood or corruption touching this one forenamed question vnto which they are to be held seeing we set all other controuersies aside Then touching the second sorte which finde fault about handling the matter as if that I should mitigate or make lighter the faults of our Churches at least in this that I do not reprehend them To this I answer first that vnles it can bee shewed that our Church is guilty in some of those crimes which I stand to clere it in I see no reason why I shoulde bee charged to make things lighter which I medle not withall further than in shewing that they be not fundamentall Secondlie I intreate al men to consider that I stand to defend a Church and not the infirmities or offences of a Church in which as there be many bad mēbers so the best are traile If a godlie man because of some apparant sinnes should be accused to be an Atheist an infidell a traitor or a most vile and filthie wretch might not he clere himselfe of such horrible crimes but it must be saide he dooth mittigate his owne infirmities or make them lighter Thirdlie I doo request them to consider the state of our people how speedelie verie manie are carried into great euils and dangers though not all in the same degree I am of this minde that where any thing is amisse in Gods Church it is the part and duetie of the faithfull Ministers of Christ all dutifull reuerence and submission being obserued towards Magistrates publique authoritie peaciblie to seeke redresse of the same with godlie and charitable reprehension I doo also holde that euery christian man is wiselie and soberly with the like deuties of reuerence submission and peaceable behauiour obserued to seeke to haue his conscience informed in all matters which may any way concerne himselfe But we see how farre some haue swarued and doo swarue from this For the rule of charitie and christian dueties being neglected the vttet disgrace and contempt of men is sought and that on either part The warre is made as deadlie as if the grounds of christianitie were in question while some passing the bounds of modestie others doo replie against them after the same manner Our Sauiour saith Satan dooth not cast foorth Satan and shall we thinke then that sinne shall cast foorth sinne Such as condemne and abhorre Schisme and errors and inordinate dealing must bee burthened and reproached with the same notwithstanding which is iniurious And what is in the mouthes of many against this but that the Papists then may as well be excused which condemne Master Luther and other as the fathers of heretiks because swarmes of Anabaptists did followe immediatelie vpon their preaching the Gospel When shall we then here come to an end There wil bee contention in the Church and humaine frailtie hath shewed it selfe this way euen among the holie teachers of old to the sharp reprehension and in manner reproaching one of another as Master Beza noteth in the Epistle of his Booke against Erastus but godlie men when they haue somewhat gone awrie seek to amend their fault by subduing their passions Now looke also vpon the people where wee may see verie many who not regarding the chiefe christian vertues godlie dueties as namelie to be meek to be patient to be lowlie to be full of loue and mercie to deale vprightlie and iustly to guide their families in the feare of God with wholsome instructions and to stand fast in the calling in which God hath set them giue thēselues wholy to this euen as if it were the summe and pith of religion namelie to argue and talke continuallie against matters in the Church against Bishops and Ministers and one against another on both sides Some are proceeded to this that they will come to the assemblies to heare the Sermons and praiers of the Preacher but not to the praiers of the booke which I take to be a more grieuous sinne than manie doo suppose But yet this is not the worst for sundrie are gone further and fallen into a damuable Schisme and the same so much the more feareful dangerous in that manie do not see the foulenes of it but rather holde them as godlie Christians and but a little ouershot in some matters The sore is grieuous and the wound is deepe as I haue small ioy to behold it so haue I lesse desire to make it deeper wishing from my heart that it might rather be cured Such as bee of another minde either in this or in any thing that I haue writtē I craue of them that they wil giue me leaue according to the doctrine and rule of the Apostle fraterne dissentire to dissent in some thing without the breach and hindrance of brotherly loue For as I do greatlie esteeme that rule of S. Paul let as manie as be perfect be thus minded if any be otherwise minded God will reueale it But so farre as we are come let vs proceed by one rule to be like affectioned Phil. 3. so do I much lament to see it almost vtterly neglected and the breach of loue concord as violent among many for euery matter wherein they dissent as if some ground of christianity were in question between them I do not meane that a man ought to consent vnto any error or vnto any euill committed by others or to neglect the instructing and admonishing as his place and calling dooth require But I had rather as one saith answer to God if I must giue account for mercie rather than for rigour and seueritie I knowe there be faults in extremities on both sides as on the one side vnder a perswasion of loue a man may be ouer fauorable in esteeming and bearing as brethren such as hold the foundations of the faith and yet erre in some things and haue great faultes so on the other side vnder a perswasion of zeale against all falsehood and wickednes they may fall into an vncharitable rigour as very many doo The nature of man is more prone to this latter and the fall is more grieuous than in that former few are carried with aboundance of godly loue to offend in ouer fauorable iudging their brethren and because the elect of God haue great infirmities the Scripture doth not warrant men to be rigorous in condemning if a man holding the hatred zeale
negociationis quaestuosae nundinas aucupari Esurientibus in ecclesia fratribus habere argentum largiter velle fundos insidiosis fraudibus rapere vsuris multiplicantibus foenus augere That is very many Bishops which ought to bee an ornament and an example vnto other men despising the deuine cure became factors in worldly matters leauing the chaire forsaking the people wandring through other Prouinces did hunt after faires or markets of gainefull trafficke The brethren hungring in the Church they had siluer in great plentie they would in rauening manner get lands by subtill fraud increase their gaine with vsurie What shall we say did this holie Cyprian falselie accuse the Churches of his time in laying these greeuous crimes to the charge both of the Pastors and the people Doubtles he spake the trueth It will be demaunded whether Cyprian and the rest of the godlie did worship together with those open sinners ioyning with them in praier receiuing the Sacraments We see it is manifest they did for he describeth not the heathen or such as had been cast foorth of the Church but such as God sent chasticement vpon to raise vp the faith which was almost as he saith a sleepe He doth also testifie in plaine wordes that the godlie could not separate themselues from the Church because of such open sinners without proud obstinacie and sacrilegious presumption He speaketh vpon this occasion there were certaine which had suffered imprisonment for the Gospell among whom was one Maximus an Elder and certaine brethren which when they came out of prison separated themselues from the Church taking offence at the open sinners which were not cast foorth as it appeareth by the words of Cyprian For hauing testified his gladnes y t they had forsaken their schisme and did returne againe into the Church he addeth Nam etsi videntur in ecclesia esse zizania non tamen impediri debet aut fides aut charit as nostra vt quoniam zizania esse in ecclesia semper cernimus ipsi de ecclesia recedamus Nobis tantummodo laborandum est vt frumentum esse possimus vt cum caperit frumentum dominicis horreis condi fructum pro opere nostro labore capiamus That is Although there bee tares seene to be in the Church yet neither our faith nor our charitie ought to be hindered that because wee alwaies perceiue tares to be in the Church wee our selues should goe out of the Church wee must onely labour that we may bee corne that when the corne shall begin to belayd vp in the Lords barnes wee may receiue fruit for our work labour Then further he addeth Apostolus in Epistola sua dicit in domo autem magna non solū vasa sunt aurea argentea sed lignea fictilia et quaedā quidē honorata quaedā vero inhonorata nos operā demus quantum possumus laboremus vt vas aureū vel argenteū simus The Apostle his Epistle saith but in a great house there are not onely vessels of gold and siluer but also of wood and earth and some vnto honour and some vnto dishonour let vs doo our endeuour and labour what we can that wee may be vessels of gold or at least of siluer Finallie he saith Caeterum fictilia vasa confringere domino soli concessum est cui virga ferrea data est Esse non potest maior domino suo seruus nec quisquam sibi quod soli filio pater tribuit vendicarit vt se putet vniuersa posse zizania humano iudicio segregare superba est ista obstinatio sacrilega presumptio quam sibi furor prauus adsumit dum sibi semper quidam plus quam mitis iusticia deposcit assumunt de ecclesia pereunt dum se insolenter extollunt ipso suo tumore caecati veritatis lumen amittunt But it is graunted onely to the Lord to breake the earthen vessels to whom also the yron mace is giuen The seruant cannot be greater than his Lord neither shall any challenge that to himselfe which the father hath giuen to the sonne alone that he should think he can by humane iudgement seuer all the tares That is a proud obstinacie and sacrilegious presumption which wicked furie doth take to it selfe And while some doo alwaies take more vpon them than meeke iustice dooth require they perish out of the Church and while they insolentlie extoll themselues being blinded with that very swelling of theirs they lose the light of the trueth What can be more manifest than these testimonies which shewe that there were greeuous open sinnes committed by multitudes in the Church not onely of the common sort but euen of the teachers We see they did communicate together as in the old Church vnder the law heapes of notorious wicked men did flock vnto the Temple and worship at the same Altar and Sacrifices with the godlie Hierom in his Epistle to Paulinus sheweth there were many of all sorts both men and women which did presumptuouslie ignorantlie with baine glorie prattle of the scriptures and so abuse the bolie word of God And in the Ministrie there were that had stepped from seculer learning to deale with the Scriptures which being able to rowle out words thought they made goodlie sermons Therefore if the Donatists had but complained that there were multitudes of open sinners in the Church as proude couetous hatefull persons irreligious and prophane abusers of the Scriptures and not only of the common sort but also of the teachers their complaint had béen true But when they proceeded thus That all that did communicate with any such open sinners were polluted by them and fell from God and so termed all the Pastors wicked traitors and Iudasses wretches whose worship and praiers were abominable and all the people that ioyned with them prophane and heathen therein they became false accusers and wicked coudemners they did with most intollerable pride and sacrilegious treacherie publish a diuorse betweene Christ and his spouse The Brownists offend in the same degree in accusing condemning and casting foorth the Churches of Christ affirming that by open sinners admitted to the Lords table all are fallen from the couenant of grace haue no true Sacraments nor Church but are as an heape of polluted heathen whose worship and praiers are abominable Now that it may appeare vnto euery one that will not shut his eyes that in this point our Brownists I speake of the Capitaines are full Donatists I wilenter into the particular discourses and shew vpon what Scriptures they stood and with what arguments they maintained this their wicked hereticall opinion And what answere they receaued from the holieseruants of God the pastors of the Churches Wherein I desire the reader to obserue whether there may be found one haire breadth of difference between them talke with the Brownists about this point which they hold that where open sinners are admitted to the participation of the Sacraments all which
the like because the aduerb thus doth signifie the like and not the same But hée rendreth a reason which is that we haue but the summe of their prophesies recorded vnto vs by the holie Ghost and not all the words Because we haue not all the words therefore haue we not the same in those that are set downe Did the holie Ghost vse this word Coh to giue vs to vnderstand that there is written but an abridgement or summe of matters and not the same words that they were vttered in but some such like Againe did the holie Ghost recorde them are they not all his words which are written in the summe of the prophesies set downe Shall we beléeue this man I doo beléeue him in this that he saith the holie Ghost did record them for therein he speaketh the trueth But when he saith that thus saith the Lord is not these same words saith the Lord but the like because thus is an aduerb of likenes it is a vile saying Is not the holie Ghost the Lord If hée had spoken those things before in moe words and now recordeth them in fewer saying thus saith the Lord doth not he speake these fewer words which are written as well as those moe wordes which were vttered Are they not then thus saith the Lord euen the verie same words which the Lord speaketh and not like If ye make many such expositions of words ye may leade me whether ye will There is then another reason rendred to prooue that the Priests were not tied vnto those wordes in blessing the people namely that in prayer they are blessed in the Psalmes and in the Chronicles with many other words And Eli blessed Hanna in other words It is not the question whether at any time the people might bee blessed in other words in fewer or in moe but whether the Priests had not that forme prescribed to vtter in blessing the whole assemblie and whether it were Idolatrie to vse those prescript phrases of wordes As likewise it is not maintained that when our Sauiour saith say thus that wee may not pray in other words or expresse our petitions more particularlie but that we may vse those words and sentences as most excellent petitions Against this Master Greenwood bringeth nothing in his words that followe For Master Caluine neuer held it vnlawful to pray in that forme of words though he teach truelie that men are not so tied vnto it that they may vse none other And therefore it standeth firme and sure that the forme of words in the Lords Prayer is to bee lawfullie vsed praying In the next part Master Greenwood is in a great heate and maketh an outcrie to call men to the beholding of an iniurie which I as he saith as a godles man haue done him Here saith he I must call all men that reade this fruitles discourse to be witnesse c. Indeede ye may well call it a fruitles discourse which ye call men that reade to beare witnesse with ye and let the reader iudge by your exposition of Coh whether it be not worse than fruitlesse which ye spread among the ignorant sort which are readie to sucke in such filthie dregges The abuse of my tongue to the defacing of Gods trueth is that I sayd he calleth all men Idolaters And to make the matter cléere that he spake not the words but I my selfe he maketh a briefe repetition how we fell into that matter But before we procéede any further I pray ye tell me what is the reason that I hauing set downe your whole discourse touching this poynt so that you cannot denie but that I haue also set it downe truely you forsake that and set downe by péece meale but some of your words and reason from them If I had ment in a godles manner wilfully to peruert your words would I haue deliuered them whole and together in print It seemeth ye haue some hope that some men will reade your booke which will not compare it with mine or which being carried with blind heate cannot Now I craue no more of the reader but to marke the whole speach which you deliuered and mine answere to it and to iudge indifferently If Master Greenwoods words bee not such as must needes include that which I haue collected let me beare the blame for that matter which is one of the least He saith I haue an euasion to auoide this foyle because I sayd I tooke it we reasoned about such grosse Idolatrie as a Church is to bee condemned and forsaken for which is defiled therewith He saith he neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse And I say then he must go from his owne words which affirme that read prayer offered vp to GOD as a sacrifice is Idolatrie that to reade the prayer while one praieth is a chaunging the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a bondage and breaking of Christian libertie a thing most detestable a deuice of Antichrist Let all men iudge by these speaches what manner of Idolatrie was in question betweene vs. Master Greenwood as if he had wonne the field will needs put me to my raunsome and asketh what mends I will make him for this slandering I answer that as your victorie is but in a dreame so my raunsome must be therafter If I could sée I had done ye wrong I would be sorie Ye will haue no man free from such foule Idolatrie but yet no Idolaters No Church is free ye confesse from all spot vpon earth Hereupon ye growe againe into a newe heate and charge me out of one mouth to giue contrarie sentence because I call ye Donatists Why man are ye ignorant of this that the Donatists did confesse all men to bee sinners and yet the arguments by which they would maintaine their schisme could not bee strong vnlesse they would maintaine a perfection and some of their reasons though they ment not so reached so farre And so is it with you Brownists If one should followe ye in all the grosse absurdities which will followe from your exposition of Coh thus saith the Lord could you haue any way but to protest ye did meane no such thing Wee may not looke what men protest they hold but what doth followe of their reasons and then ye shall see that such as be in schisme and heresie are with the blasts of their swelling pride tossed and hurled vpon contrarie Rockes Now whereas I sayd the confession of the Brownists that there is no Church in earth without spottes of Idolatrie doth ouerthrowe the reasons which they bring to condemne the Church of England Because they cannot argue thus this is a fault it is Idolatrie therefore this or that assemblie which is spotted is no true Church But they must prooue the Idolatrie to bee such as destroyeth the faith c. Master Greenwood would beare men in hand that I reason as simplie as to say if there bée no true Church in earth without spots then the Church of
heretofore when such prescript formes were alleadged prooue that those wordes were to be saide ouer to God but now being conuinced and confessing that some Psalmes were song to God and for feare least bidding mee prooue againe that the prescript forme was followed when they spake to GOD I should againe charge ye openly to denie the singing of Psalmes to God which I haue shewed yee doe couertly ye seeke another shift and say your Minor proposition which is that I stand to disprooue speaketh of the reading for praying and not of the forme of prayer This is poore stuffe seeing we reason about prescript forme and reading the same praying I do not say that the reading it selfe is praying but I haue prooued that they went together and whether there were cōmandement to followe the prescript formes or not in the blessing for the Priestes to vse In the prayer prescribed for the people to say at the offring the first fruites and in some of the Psalmes whether it be not also lawful to say the Lords prayer praying let wise men iudge Nowe where as I saide the Brownistes doe condemne all Churches by these three arguments against read prayers Maister Greenewood at this is in no small heate as his speech doth shewe for if hee coulde dippe his words tenne times deeper in gall it appeareth hee woulde not spare I trust saith he your madnesse will appeare vnto all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue But Maister Greenewood If I haue saide the truth which is iustifiable by your owne speeches your sober minde is not to bee boasted off And if your sentence include all Churches what milke and honie doth flow from vnder your lippes Heere is much a doe this man layeth about him as if he were halfe madde but that he is blindfolde I could not escape some sounde blowes Here he hath vp the begger with his clappe dish and the Priest with his Masse booke canuesing ouer the Paternoster for their bellie Here he saith I breath out my accustomed lies slaunders and raylings calling them Brownists and Donatists here he detesteth Donatus his heresies Browne and the Brownists he saith are ours hee willeth mee to remember who is the Father of such vntruthes when I say they condemne al reformed Churches but because my conscience as hee saith did witnesse I had wrongfullie charged him and for him all true Christians I bring it in by necessarie consequence Now if the heate be any thing past heare a little what I saye shewe that I haue any way slaundred ye or rayled vpon yee in that I haue termed you Brownists and Donatists and let mee haue open shame among all men I haue affirmed that the very pith of all your matter is from Maister Brownes bookes conuince mée therein if yee can I haue now published that Brownisme and Donatisme are all one let any Brownist in the land confute me The theefe will not abide to be so called but will say I defie all theeues doth that cleare him when he liueth by theeuerie what are you the better to say I detest the heresies of Donatus and yet holde all that he helde and know not what ye say nor what the heresies of Donatus were more then doth a post shew openly that ye renounce those thinges I haue noted to bée the furies of the Donatists then yee may crie out that ye are slaundred And now for condemning al Churches will ye denie that which is concluded by necessarie consequence from your words Is that against conscience which is brought in by necessarie consequence Ye would seeme to make light of it in this respect that a multitude is not to bee followed to doo euill when ye condemne all Churches but yet it doth sting ye so neere that by no meanes ye can abide to heare of it Thus I did reason and thus I reason still without any witnesse of conscience against me You affirme prescript formes of prayer brought into the publike assemblies to bée the changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie and therefore a thing most detestable a dead letter which doth quench the spirit but all reformed Churches haue prescript forme of prayer imposed therefore yee condemne all Churches I am glad your booke may bee seene of all men that they may iudge the soundnes of that answere by which ye would cleere your selfe Ye cannot goe from your first words they be spread in the hands of so many but ye should shame your selfe Ye replie therefore againe that the true Churches might erre in this and yet remaine Churches of God This is strange that ignorance should excuse men that worship an Idoll in stead of God that take away the Christian libertie from the consciences of men and doo that which is most detestable What doo the Papists more than these or what can they bee charged withall which is worse than that which is most detestable And haue ye not set downe now in this your booke in replying vpon the second Argument that all our Ministers must leaue reading their stinted prayers or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that pray with them How are the Ministers and people of other Churches priuiledged from standing vnder Gods wrath hauing read prayers imposed leiturgies and as you terme them stinted prayers or tell me are they the Churches of God that stand vnder his wrath Now remember who is the father of lyes Well your meaning was not to condemne the Churches nor to meddle with them Why then doo ye giue such sentence of condemnation which reacheth vnto them Tel me but this is there any Brownist which is a disciple and giueth credite vnto ye in this matter that read prayer is most detestable and that such as ioyne in it stand vnder Gods wrath which yet durst ioyne himselfe or might ioyne himselfe vnto any assemblie in the world euen the most reformed Tell me either you or any other chiefe Brownist will say they may pray with any assembly where they follow a prescript forme If ye dare not say this I meane that ye would counsell men to ioyne with a Church that hath read prayer but say they must reprooue and condemne it and if it were not redressed forsake them then bee also ashamed so furiouslie to crie out vpon me which speake nothing herein that I say ye condemne all churches but that which all indifferent men must néedes sée your owne wordes and doctrine doe vpholde As for your bitter accusations vpon no shewe I leaue them and whereas ye require that if I haue any sparkle of grace I would procure that ye might decide the trueth with other Churches I answere that if ye had any sparke of sober wisdome ye could not with such condition lay that vpon me which ye knowe not howe vnable I am to performe You say you might iustly be called an Anabaptist if you shoulde reason thus Imposing of mens writings to be read for praying is an heinous
the Churches and the Ministers of the Churches most falselie and I say the Brownists are as false accusers as they and condemne as iniustlie in all crimes which they obiect and shall in no wise bee found vnlike in this poynt Yea will it bee sayd how shall that appeare All men doo knowe that the Brownists may without any false accusing lay greeuous faults to the Church of England I graunt they may and I say likewise the Donatists might lay as great faults to the charge of many Churches then and in some points greater yet be no liers This is to be prooued by comparing the Churches of those times with ours for so shall wee see how farre both haue iustlie accused or might accuse and where they meete together as false accusers The Brownists may stand foorth and accuse the church of England in this manner That there bee heapes of open sinners not separated from among the good but suffered and admitted to the Lords table at least wise in many or in the most assemblies There be prophane ignorant persons that despise the holie religion There bee swearers and cursers There bee those that are puffed vp and swell in pride and vaine glorie There be swarmes of drunkards gluttons and vnchast persons There be couetous worldlings and greedie vsurers extortioners oppressors bribers and defrauders There be liers backbiters and slanderers There bée enuious hateful and contentious persons yea what sinnes almost are wanting Where shall a man goe but he is readie to fall into companies of wicked men This is not alone among the common people but verie many of those that should bee guiders lights and patternes of godlinesse vnto others are nothing lesse Who is able to deny these things heauen and earth will witnesse against him We may lift vp our voyces and say wee haue sinned with our fathers wee haue done wickedlie We may confesse that our iniquities are heaped vp and reach aboue the clowdes and that shame and confusion of face is due vnto vs. Wee may crie saue Lord for the godlie cease the faithfull are diminished from the children of men The complaints that the Prophets doo make euerie where against the Church of Israel may verie well be applied against vs. Where is loue where is fidelitie where is mercie where is trueth But now shall wee thinke that the Donatists had no such things to accuse the Churches of in those daies Could they not say your assemblies are full of couetous men proud persons both men and women Had they not iust cause to complaine that many walked in hatred and discord Doo ye imagine that there were no vngodlie Ministers or will ye suppose that Augustine and other holie men stoode to cléere and iustifie the Churches that way against the Donatists and other Heretickes Nay let their words bee heard what they testifie in this behalfe Cresconius alleaged this saying of the Lord I will giue ye shepheards according to my heart which shal feede yee with knowledge and vnderstanding Ieremy 3. This he cited to prooue that the Pastors ought to bee faithfull Augustine maketh answere thus Scio completum est tales Apostoli fuerunt tales etiam nunc etsi pro ecclesiae latitudine perpauci non tamen desunt That is I knowe it is fulfilled such were the Apostles such also there be now though very fewe in respect of the largenes of the Church yet they are not wanting This is a plain testimonie that in the time of Augustine the faithfull sincere godlie Pastors were verie fewe in comparison Many testimonies may be brought out of diuers ancient writers for this matter but I will bring but some fewe and first out of Cyprian which alone are sufficient being both large and cleere Cyprian was in the time of persecution before the Donatists sprung vp and after one persecution was ouer he wrote an Epistle de lapsis of those that fell and denied Christ In which first he triumphantly reioyceth ouer them which stoode then he mourneth dolefullie for those that fell and after that he sheweth why God sent that persecution Si cladis causa cognoscitur medela vulneris inuenitur Deus probare familiam suam voluit If saith he the cause of the slaughter be knowne the cure of the wound is found also God would prooue his familie Et quia traditam nobis diuinitus disciplinam pax longa corruperat iaceÌ„tem fidem poenè dixerim dormientem censura coelestis erexit That is and because long peace had corrupted the discipline deliuered vs of God the heauenlie censure hath raised vp the faith lying along I may say almost sleeping Then shewing that God did not punish them so much as they deserued he setteth foorth the greeuous open sinnes committed in the Church Studebant augendo patrimonio singuli obliti quid credentes aut sub Apostolis ante fecissent aut postmodum facere deberent insatiabili cupiditatis ardore ampliandis facultatibus incubabant That is They studied euerie one to increase their patrimonie and hauing forgotten either what the beleeuers had done before in the time of the Apostles or what they ought to doo afterward they all did applie themselues to increase their riches with an insatiable burning heate of couetous desire Here is one sinne that ouerspread then he addeth further Non in Sacerdotibus religio deuota non in ministris fides integra non in operibus misericordia non in moribus disciplina There was not deuout religion in the Priests there was not the sound faith in the Ministers there was not mercie in workes there was not discipline in manners And what more Corrupta barba in viris in foeminis forma fucata Adulterati post dei manus oculi capilli mendacio coloraâ—i Ad decipienda corda simplicium callidae fraudes circumueniendis fratribus subdolae voluptates Iungere cum infidelibus vinculum matrimonij prostituere cum gentilibus membra Christi Non iurare tantum temerè sed adhuc etiam peierare Prapositos superbo tumore contemnere venenato ore sibi maledicere Odijs pertinacibus inuicem dissidere The beard was corrupted or disguised in men the beautie was counterfeit or painted in women The eyes corrupted from the forme in which Gods hands had made them the haires were set out with a false colour subtill fraudes to deceiue the hearts of the simple deceiptfull pleasures to circumuent the brethren They coupled themselues in mariage with infidels they prostituted the members of Christ with the heathen they did not onely sweare rashlie but also forsweare They contemned their gouernours with swelling pride and cursed themselues with venymed mouth being at discord among themselues with stiffe hatreds Are not these horrible sinnes which ouerflowed in the church Is there no more Yes he saith Episcopi plurimi quos ornamento esse oportet ceteris exemplo diuina procuratione contempta procuratores rerum secularium fieri derelicta cathedra plebe deserta per alienas prouincias oberrantes
are the grosser if we may reason from that which they holde for if this were true which the Brownists affirme most stiffelie to bee true as the Donatists did before them that where an open wicked man dooth administer the Sacraments they be no Sacraments at all And if this also were as true which they both haue taken vpon them to iustifie the Donatists of olde saying they had no true Sacraments in the Churches and the Brownists that we haue none now It must needes be graunted that the Donatists did the better of both in baptising those which were not before baptized for he that is not baptized ought to be baptized And as no vncircumcised might eate of the Passeouer but was to be cut off from the people of GOD so no vnbaptized is to eate at the table of the Lord. How grosse are the Brownists which take it as a thing vndoubted that we haue no Sacraments and must needes thereupon be assured that they themselues were neuer baptized and so can be but as an heape of vncircumcised and yet seeke not to haue the Sacrament I would haue them answer this question whether a man that knoweth he was neuer baptized can be saued if he seeke not to bee baptized when hee may come by it Let no man imagine that I speake this as though the Brownists should doo well in rebaptizing for their former ground is false wicked and hereticall when they say it is no Sacrament that hath been administred by open offenders and that we haue no Sacraments But if that were true which they hold they should doo much better I will not say to rebaptize but to baptize such as were not before baptized Now where it is generallie obiected that the Donatists perhaps held diuers things which the Brownists doo not I answere that the Donatists indeede held somewhat which the Brownists doo not and the Brownists hold something which they did not For some of the Donatists did cast themselues downe from high places and into the fire accounting them holie Martyres that so died and others defended their doing For thus saith Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop in his Epistle An ista persecutio est quae tot milliq innocentum martyrum arctauit ad mortem Christiani enim secundum euangelium spiritu prompti sed carne infirmi à sacrilega contaminatione caminorum reperto compendio suas animas rapuerunt imitati presbyteri Raziae in Machabaeorum libris exemplum nec frustra timentes quisquis enim eorum manus inciderit non euasit sed quantum velint faciant quod certum est dei esse non possunt qui faciunt contra Deum Whether is that a persecution saith he which hath pent vp in a straight so many thousands of innocent martyres euen vnto death For Christians according to the Gospell being readie in spirit but weake in the flesh finding out a compendious way of their chimneyes haue deliuered their soules from the sacrilegious pollution imitating the example of olde Razia in the bookes of the Machabees not fearing without cause for whosoeuer falleth into their hands doth not escape but let them doo as much as they will that which is certaine they cannot be of God which doo against God booke 2. against Gaudent Chapt. 20. Augustine sheweth that Gaudentius meaning was not that they burnt themselues in their chimneys for feare of persecution vnto death for the ciuill Magistrate did not so persecute them hauing made a lawe against them for banishment but not for death as Augustine sheweth book 2. against Gaudentius chap. 11. Mitiora in vos constituit Imperator propter mansuetudinem Christianam exilium vobis voluit inferre non mortem The Emperour hath decreed more gentle thinges against yee through Christian mildnes he would lay banishment vppon ye and not death But his meaning is that such as fell into their hands were drawne to ioyne with them in worship which he calleth the sacriligious defilement And therfore doth abuse that place of the Gospell to colour such horrible murthering of themselues the spirit is readie but the flesh is weake for fearing least through weakenes they should yéeld to ioyne with the Churches they rather chose to kill themselues This the Brownists doo not but they condemne read prayer or praying after any prescript forme of words which the Donatists did not as may bee gathered by these words of Petilian Si pâ—ecem domino facitis aut funditis orationem nihil vobis penitus prodest Vestras enim debiles preces cruenta vestra conscientia vacuat quia dominus deus puram magis conscientiam quam preces exaudit domino Christe dicente non omnis qui dicit mihi domine domine intrabit in regnum coelorum sed is qui facit voluntatem patris mei qui est in coelis Voluntas dei vtique bona est nam ideo in sacra oratione sic petimus fiat voluntas tua sicut in coelo in terra If ye make prayer to the Lord saith the Donatist or powre foorth supplication it doth profite ye nothing at al for your bloudie conscience doth make your weake prayers of none effect because the Lord God doth rather heare a pure conscience than prayers the Lord Iesus saying that not euerie one that saith vnto me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heauen but he that doth the will of my father which is in heauen The will of God is good for therefore in the holie prayer we pray thus thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen Thus we see that the Donatist denying that any praied but they sheweth with all that praying they vsed the Lords prayer But what doo I stand to seeke differences betwéen them which can hardlie be found whereas indeede whole bookes doo set foorth at large their agreement I will therefore proceede further to declare in particulars touching the power of Christian Princes in reforming the Church in establishing religion and in punishing heretickes schismatickes and disturbers and in compelling their subiects to the obedience of the trueth or to imbrace the true worship how iniuriouslie Browne hath dealt in his booke and the Brownists that haue written since I haue layd open in my former booke let their sayings be throughlie perused and now shall ye seee a little whether they be not the verie naturall children of the Donatists in this poynt also Thus writeth Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop Per opificem rerum omnium dominum Christum omnipotens deus frabricatum hominem vt deo similem libero demisit arbitrio Scriptum est enim fecit deus hominem dimisit eum in manu arbitrij sui Quid mihi nunc humano imperio eripitur quod largitus est deus Aduerte vir summe quanta in deum sacrilegia perpetrentur vt quod ille tribuit auferat humana praesumptio pro deo se inaniter iactet magna iniuria dei si ab hominibus defendatur Quid de deo aestimat qui eum violentia
compell men but rather inuite them Quodsi cogi per legem aliquem vel ad bona licuisser vosipsi miseri a nobis ad sidem purissimam cogi debuistis Sed absit absit a nostra conscientia vt ad nostram sidem aliquem compellamus If it were lawfull saith this Donatist that anie should by the Lawe be compelled yea euen vnto good things you wretches ought to bee compelled by vs to the most pure faith but farre be it farre be it from our conscience that we should compell anie vnto our faith chapt 83. Quid vobis est cum regibus seculi quos nunquam Christianit as nisi inuidos sensit What haue you to doo with the Kings of the Worlde which the Christianitie hath neuer felt but enuious against it Chapter 92. Compare now the doctrine of our Brownists and their sayings with these former of the Donatists and see if there bee anie difference They say Princes are not to make Lawes for Church matters Princes are not to reforme the Church by their authoritie Princes are not to compell their subiects to the true worship of God by penalties If Princes pleasures are to be attended where is the persecution wee speake of None of the godlie Kings of Iudea durit compell anie to the couenant The people of Christs Kingdome are spontanes such as come of their owne free accord c. It were too long and tedious to set foorth all the outcries of the Donatists their glorying in suffering persecutions for the trueth their accusations against the pastors of Christs Churche and the Princes while they sought to restraine their furie the one by Gods word the other by lawes that they persecuted and therefore could not be the true Church which as they say is persecuted but neuer persecuteth reade the epistle of Parmenian of Petilian and of Cresconius The Brownists are not behinde them an intch in this matter but crie out as fast of Antichristian persecutors boasting of their patience and sufferings calling themselues the persecuted remnant the poore afflicted c. Aug. answereth those Donatists at large I will recite but a little Cum phreneticus medicum vexet medicus phreneticum liget aut ambo inuicem persequuntur aut si persecutio quae malo sit non est non vtiq persequitur medicus phreneticum sed phreneticus medicum When the man that is in phrensie dooth vex the phisitian and the phisitian dooth binde him that is in phrensie either both doo persecute each other or else if that bee not a persecution which is done to the euill then verelie the phisitian dooth not persecute the phrantick or mad man but the phrantick or mad man dooth persecute the phisitian Against Cresconius Booke 4. Chapter 51. his application is that the penall Lawes of the Princes were as the bands of the Phisitian to binde the Phrensie and furious outrage of the Donatists And whereas they boasted of patience and woulde compell none He answereth that because they bee not able to resist so manie nations which were Catholike they gloried of patience that they compelled none to their part Hee then addeth Isto modo miluus cum pullos rapere territus non potuerit co lūbum se nominet After the same sort the Puttocke when he is fraid and can not snatch away the chickens may name himselfe a Doue For he doth demaund of them what they haue not done which they were able When Iulian the Apostata being Emperour enuying the peace of Christ shewed them fauour and graunted to them Churches what slaughters they committed Likewise he sheweth in many places what reuell their circumcellions made which in companies walking with clubbes and staues did spoile and beate such as light into their handes vsing moreouer a sauage crueltie in putting vineger and lime into mens eies when they had beaten them And verely what is it which men of excéeding intemperate heate will not doe if it bee once in their power against such as they shall iudge to bee but as vile Idolaters and persecutors of Christes truth The impatient heate of most Brownistes is not vnknowē but when the Kites for feare can not snatch vp the Chickens must professe the mekenes of Doues as to say weare Christes poore afflicted seruants we be meeke and patient we beare the crosse Where it is taught that priuate men are authorised to deale and furie aboundeth which things are among the Brownistes who is able to expresse the tragedies that would ensue if power were not wanting in thē the Princes may not stoppe their course and who shall then resist The Donatists abusing the scriptures in their plentifull allegations and finding that their grosenesse was detected much by the skill of artes found fault that any thing should be scanned by the rules of Logike The Brownistes are euen with them if not beyond In his first booke against Cresconius Chap. 14 Augustine reporteth the wordes of that Donatist thus Vestros Episcopos laudas quod nobiscum velut dialecticis nolint habere sermonem Thou doest commend your Bishoppes that they refuse to haue speech or conference with vs as being Logicians He answereth at large in shewing what Logicke is and the worthie and necessarie vse thereof in discussing matters of religion Browne in the preface of his booke which hee saith sheweth the life and manners of Christians calleth them sophisticall diuines which deale by the rules of Logicke The Brownistes with whome I deale charge the students of the Vniuersities as trained vp in vaine and curious Artes. And what other cause shall euer be shewed of so barbarous an errour but that they would not haue their matters tried by the rules which make manifest which is truth and which is falsehoode Thus haue I briefely laide open that the whole Donatisme is maintained by the Brownistes and therefore I haue rightly termed them the Donatistes of England An answere to Master Greenewood touching read prayer MAster Greenewood in the preface of his booke dooth shew that the reasons spread abroade in writing against read praier were his which I did not knowe before now and therefore bee taketh vpon him the defence of them He would seeme to haue found out such a deapth of spirituall wisdome touching the holie exercise of prayer and so reprooueth the grosenes of this age that wee must esteeme him for the aboundance of spirit as an other Montanus For whereas hee seemeth to charge this age onelie as grosse in this poynt in verie deede he accuseth all ages all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue beene since the Apostles so that in the gifts of the spirite he excelleth all Hee saieth hee could yet neuer see it set downe which is the true praier that onelie pleaseth God It is a strange thing hee hath neuer heard that whosoeuer asketh in faith whether it be with prescript forme or otherwise it is the onelie true praier that pleaseth God Hee saieth I haue flien vpon him with bitternesse of spirite and
Rome is the true Church for that hath many spots I answere that we doo not take it that the spots doo make it a true Church but because there bee onely spottes and not fundamentall errors The foolish cauill here is that I assume that which I should prooue Doo I not prooue it by answering the vile and shameles slaunders of yours when ye affirme euerie spot in our Churches to be blasphemies and heresies and abominations and Egyptian sores You must prooue these your slaunders true and I will cease Now we come to the arguments which were set down at the first No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publike assemblies all read prayer is Apocripha Here you say I haue nothing to vtter and yet oppose against both proposicions to royle the doctrine with my feete least others should drink of it I sayd your proposition is false because the exposition of the scriptures by the preacher and the prayers of the preacher are not canonicall which your proposition doth exclude Your replie is that the Sermons and prayers of of the Preacher be the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces which ye mention in your proposition and so neither Canonicall nor Apocripha and so not excluded Touching the Paraphrase vpon the Psalmes in meeter I holde not Canonicall in some respects If you banish all writings that be not Canonicall then ye banish then Your answere is that it I will affirme them to be Apocrypha as ye say I cannot but doe you will prooue they are not to be brought into the publike assemblies Your proofes doe follow First no mans writings are giuen by the testimonie of Gods spirit whome alone we are to heare No mans writings are without errors and imperfections The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets If we might bring in mens writings then al mens writings which are agreeable to Gods word No mans writings carie that maiestie that the pen of the holy ghost No mans writings are authentike confirmed by signes and wonders The scripture is all sufficient al men must walk by that one rule To think there were not rules enough prescribed by the Lorde for his house is blasphemous and papisticall Then ye say the gifts to prophesie are not Apocryphall and so ye conclude your proposition that onely Gods word and the liuely graces of his holy spirite are to be offered vp vnto him in the publike assemblies Then touching your assumption I sayd I see not how our speech to God should be called Apocrypha Ye replie y t it answereth not you which do not holde an other mans writing to be our speech vnto God Finally because I said that Apocrypha is that which is not Gods vndoubted worde vnto vs yee say I haue ouerthrowen my selfe and cast out all read prayer in as much as I deny them to be Canonicall And so affirming that I haue not in both writings made one direct answer to this most firme proposition Onely the Canonicall scriptures and liuely voice of Gods own graces are to be brought into the publike assemblies for doctrine and prayers But mens writings are neither Canonicall nor the liuely voice of Gods owne graces Now master Greenwood hauing thus played the man in erecting as he supposeth so mighty a piller that cannot be shaken could content himself to go no further I might end here saith hee with this vaine man considering the whole matter is proued against him And all that solloweth but repetitions of the same cauills but that I must cleare my selfe of his vnconcionable slaunders Hee â—â—â—â—mphing thus fully what shall I doe now I aunswere first that hee is much deceiued and would deceiue others as it is written The deceiuers shall wax worse and worse deceiuing and being deceiued For like as one that among many Apples doth hide and sell one Crab so he among many true principles doth bring in one false conclusion which deceiueth his Schollers For if he did reason thus wee must heare onely the voice of Gods spirite therefore all things in the Church are to be tried by the voice of the spirit No mans writings are without errors and imperfections therefore meÌ„ cannot ground vpon them any further than they be consonant to the Canonicall scriptures The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets therfore our faith is to rest no further vpon the sayings and writings of men than they be prooued by the doctrine of the Apostles Prophets he should conclude a truth which is vnanswerable But now where master Greenwoods conclusioÌ„ is after this sorte therefore nothing but the Canonicall scriptures and the liuely voice of Gods graces is to bee brought into the publike assemblies he concludeth falsely as shall appeare For if nothing but the perfect rule it selfe is to bee brought into the Church If nothing done by man which hath errors in it is to haue place in the assemblies If nothing but eyther such or that which is the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces is to be vttered in the congregation then must bee tast foorth not onely al written prayers but also y e whole bible vnles it be in y e Hebrew Greeke with the Sermons and praiers of the Pastors For there is no translation of the Bible without errors and the bookes are thus farre mans writing respecting onely the translation And furthermore we decide not controuersies by any translation of the Bible but by the authentike copies of the Hebrew and Greek in one of which the olde testament is set downe by the Prophets in the other the new testameÌ„t by the Apostles So that your conclusion doth not shut out onely the Psalmes in méeter but the whole scriptures vnles you will be so bolde as to say that translations be without errors and so the perfect rule And now touching the second part will Master Greenwood bee so vnwise as to affirme that the errours in the Sermons and in the prayers of the Pastors bee the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces He will assuredly denie it for the graces of GOD all simple men know bring not foorth errors Then let him marke his conclusion no mens writings are without errours and imperfections therefore no mens writings are to be brought into the publike assemblie is not this conclusion as strong no translations of the Bible no Psalmes in meeter no Sermons nor Prayers of the Pastors are without errors and imperfections therfore none of these are to be brought into the publike assemblies Is there any so voide of sense that can not tast howe sower this Crabbe is which Maister Greenewood conueieth in among so many sweete Apples But he replieth further to confirme his matter by argument thus if anie mens writings may bee brought into the publike assemblies then al mens writings which are thought to be agreeable to Gods word may be brought in To prooue the consequence of this proposition he saith If God commaunde any to be brought in as being agreeable
it of necessitie seeing men are excommunicate and deposed for not obseruing it or as some verie ignorantlie vse to say if it be a thing indifferent why is it not left indifferent for men to vse or not to vse I answere that which is a thing indifferent God commaundeth it shall be done when it is conuenient and for edification and therefore when the Church doth appoynt or ordeine it rightly he that breaketh it wilfullie breaketh the commandement of God And so on the other side when it falleth out not to be conuenient and the Church dooth alter it hee that will now obserue it with a resisting minde doth like wise offend against the rule of Gods word I neuer doubted but that by neâ—essary consequence it is to be drawen from the doctrine of the scriptures that prayer is to be made before and after the word preached but I speake of a commaundement in expresse wordes therefore the places are cited here by the Brownist to no purpose And all the rest of his words that follow are either in matters wherin we agree or such as he collectetth from his owne ignorance and which are answered before The next argument is Read prayers were deuised by Antichrist and maintaine superstition and Idole ministerie c. Here the Brownist if he would at all speak to the purpose shoulde prooue that the very reading a prayer when one prayeth is the deuise of Antichrist maintaineth superstitioÌ„ an Idole ministrie But he flieth dealeth about the matter of leiturgies saying he hath heard the Pope woulde haue approoued ours if it might be receiued in his name If master Greenwoods newes from Rome were true which hee heard the matter were not great for the Pope will approoue the Lords prayer the commaundements and articles of the faith but he wil expound them as it pleaseth him The Pope also to wind in himself wil approoue in shew many things which he misliketh so they be not directly against his crowne and dignitie And it is to be considered that the controuersies betweene vs and the Papists are not about the matters which we are to begge in prayer There is no likelyhood that the Pope made such offer because he knoweth we holde in the substance and grounds of the faith that which quite ouerthroweth him but if he did men may see by these things which I haue noted that master Greenwood doth but shift and trifle He confesseth leiturgies were before Antichrist and yet saith he was the deuiser See the grauitie of this man he is sore afraide that hee should here againe be said to condemne all Churches because they haue read prayer and therfore he saith his arguments are falsely wrested Answere your selfe then and tell vs what ye holde them which receiue the deuise of Antichrist Why crie yee not out of the marke of the beast It is a pitifull thing to see in what a case the Brownist is For he wil not coÌ„demne the Churches and yet after he hath set foorth what leiturgie is and affirmed that the new Testament is Christs leiturgie he alleageth that they be accursed that adde thereto and holdeth prescript forme of prayer an adding Let him now be asked is the curse layd vpon the true Churches he will say no. Then prescript forme is either no adding to Christs Testament or else they be vnder the curse that vse it He saith leiturgies are another gospel Then all Churches haue receiued another gosepl The wordes that follow haue bin answered before Where I sayd there would sundrie inconueniences growe for want of prescript forme of publike prayer After he hath set downe that Christ is a perfect law giuer and that the word of God is sufficient he tearmeth it blasphemie to say there would be inconueniences without leiturgies then all the Churches committe blasphemie whether doe ye yet condemne them or not This is from his grosenes which doth not se that Christs Testament is perfect and yet there are things commaunded in generall rules which are variable as I haue before shewed for circumstances of time place persons sitting kneeling c. He saith there can be no particular lawes made without breaking the lawe of God as though the Church were not to see what in these is fit and conuenient vpon euerie occasion and time and for that time to establish the same But euerie man to doe as he shall like or shal take the generall rule of order and decencie for men will not agree this is from rules of order to drawe confusion Now this great deuine saith I haue made a faire hande in affirming leiturgies to be but a matter of order or conueniencie for edification Seeing as hee saith it is all the worship we haue this commeth from him that hath the beautie of Sion as he boasteth which the inchaunters of Egipt cannot iudge of This commeth from him that with his fellowes hath the cloude betweene them and vs and the pillar of fire before them as he speaketh in the next wordes Because I say the prescript forme and the reading are but for order he concludeth that I confesse the prayer is but a matter of order or conueniencie ye say I haue made a faire hand But I tell ye master Greenwood if ye should goe into the Schooles and reason so in earnest the young boyes would be readie to hisse ye foorth as a non proficiens and howe faire hand should you make then they will not beleeue ye haue it from your pillar of fire but out of that dark cloud of your ignorance which is betweene your selfe and the light of the trueth Now wheras I said y e Church hath power to ordain according to the word of God to appoint such orders in matters of circumstance about publike prayer preaching of the worde and administring of the Sacraments as shall most fitly serue for edification and then these orders being established by publike authoritie the discipline and censures of the Church are to driue men to the obseruation of the same that stubbornely break them Here the poore Brownist layeth open himselfe againe to be as blinde as a beetle he will needes haue it to be papisticall mudde and that I am in an Apostacie Because there can as he saith no other lawes be made in matters of circumstance than Christ himselfe hath made that to ordaine lawes in the Church is to plead for vnwritten verities and to make the law of God vnsufficieÌ„t It is an adding to the word of God which is execrable pride All the Popes trinkets might bee brought in by the same ground This is the foundation of Poperie and Anabaptistrie to giue libertie to make lawes in the worship of God And by your iudgement which would haue men driuen to obserue them our Sauiour Christ was an Anabaptisticall Schismatike that would not himselfe nor his disciples obey the traditions of the Elders Thus speaketh this Brownist But what beastlie ignorance doth he bewray and that in sundrie poynts and with what
this Psalme was giuen to the Isralites in time of their captiuitie at Babylon or some other such calamitie to comfort and instruct them how to settle themselues and powre foorth their prayers before the Lord. But howe will you prooue that the people were to say ouer these wordes vnto God for wee may see the like by Habbacuc prescribing the people a forme of prayers to comfort themselues and deliuered it to be sung in the assemblies Moreouer after manie other wordes master Greenwood sayth thus And that singing of Psalmes is no part of prayer we may see by the exhortation which the Apostle vseth to the Ephesians saying Speake vnto your selues in Psalmes and Hymnes and spirituall songs And to the Collos where it is sayde Let the word of God dwel in ye plenteously in al wisdome teaching admonishing your selues in psalmes hymnes and spiritual songs And further we reade that Christ our Sauiour did giue thanks and then sing a Psalme after the institution of the Lords Supper for that singing is a reioysing our selues and instructing our selues Now let the reader iudge by comparing that which I haue written in my former booke with these words of his whether I or he be the godles man which dealeth by vnconscionable slaunders and with much euil conscience Master Greenwood denying the vse of prescript forme when wee speake vnto God and I alleadging the Psalmes demandeth how I wil prooue that the people were to say ouer those wordes vnto God And after as you see to prooue that the wordes were not to be vttered or said ouer to God praying he alleageth the sayings of Paule Speaking to your selues and instructing your selues in Psalmes and Hymnes and spirituall songs leauing out in both places the latter ende of the sentence of singing to the Lord. Now when I haue prooued that the verie wordes of some Psalmes were to be said ouer to God because the scripture is cleare in many places Sing Psalmes to God sing prayses to God c. and charged him with denying that the Psalmes are to be sung to God contrarie to such expresse commandement and blamed him for leauing out the parte of the sentence which maketh against him he crieth shame vpon me But master Greenwood it is the light of Gods word and the waight thereof which doth presse ye and cutteth downe all vngodly fantasies and not I. You confesse now because the scripture is plaine that the Psalmes were to be sung to God and yet ye did aske how I would prooue the people were to say ouer the words Then it followeth that the verie prescript forms of wordes were to be saide ouer to God by your confession which is the whole matter that I haue stoode to prooue And now chuse whether you will denie that Psalmes were to be sung to God or confesse that those verie wordes of the Psalmes and the prescript formes were to be said ouer vnto him in singing What will he say now This he will say that they were in those words to be song vnto God but not praying for he saith I must proue the Church did vse to reade the psalmes for praying I wonder how a man can speake to God the sentences which are praiers and not praying Againe I would haue any Brownist shew mee what speach wee can haue to God which is not praier if he say a man dooth speak to God in giuing him thankes and praise in acknowleging his benefites in ascribing vnto him all wisdome power glorie goodnes bountifulnes faithfulnes and mercie A man dooth speake to God when hee confesseth his sinnes when he complaineth of the iniuries and wrongs of others I confesse and I say withall that they be all of them parts of praier Why dooth a man giue thankes and praise and mention Gods benefits but to support his faith and hope that he shall receiue further and to moue the Lord to continue still good vnto him or such like Why doo we speake vnto him of his glorious power wisdome mercie and trueth but that our faith and praier dooth rest vpon those pillers Why doo we confesse our sinnes but as intreating for pardon and what doo we rehearse the vniust outrage of our aduersaries but to procure his iust defence and protection But hee demandeth what this maketh for reading praiers framed by men I answer to the same effect which I haue euer done that this is one of the poorest cauilles that may be among a thousand We reason not about the matter of praiers but about the reading for if the matter bee corrupt and naught the pronouncing or the reading cannot make it better If the matter be erronious it is no more authentick pronounced then read if it be pure and good pronounced the reading cannot hurt it or make it vnpure The reading it selfe is not vnpure when we speake to God for then should not the Psalmes haue béen song vpon the booke vnto him Who is so senceles then as not to sée this conclusion to follow to vtter a prescript forme of words in a Psalme when one speaketh to God is no sinne Therefore to followe a prescript forme of words in any godly praier when one praieth is not sinne for where shall we finde the sinne If it be in following a prescript forme it should haue béen vnlawfull to followe it in the Psalmes If it be in the matter because there bee errors in all mens writings and therefore to bee cast foorth then I say the errors and not the reading is in the fault and for which only there must be the casting forth and so we must cast foorth the praiers of the preachers To his next words I answer that it is not the repeating ouer the same godlie petitions againe euery day that maketh it the sacrifice of fooles but when men doo it of custome without faith and feruent affection for if a man with faith and zeale pray euery day the same praier to God it is acceptable The rest of his words are not worth the repeating and yet he concludeth most falsly that read praier hath no warrant in Gods word The next Argumentis this We may not in the worship of God receiue any tradition which bringerh our libertie into bondage read praier vpon commandement is a tradition that dooth bring our libertie into bondage Against this I opposed that Moses the Prophets and our Sauiour gaue prescript formes of praiers and if the very following a prescript forme imposed by commandement be so detestable a thing how are not they charged with this heinous sinne He answereth that here is a great storme and yet nothing but winde doo ye not know the wind may be so great as to blow downe the house vpon your head especially when the blast of truth commeth against your building which standeth vpon the rotten pillers of errours The counterfaite zeale of Cayphas against the trueth ought not to stay any man from being earnest for the truth But now to the matter your woonted song was