An Aunswer to sixe Reasons that Thomas Pownde Gentleman and Prisoner in the Marshalsey at the commaundement of her Maiesties Commissioners for causes Ecclesiasticall required to be aunswered Because these Reasons doo moue him to think that controuersies and doubts in Religion may not be Iudged by the Scriptures but that the Scriptures must be Iudged by the Catholique Church 1. The first is for that the Scriptures are mute and dum 2. The second for that they be full of harde and deepe mysteries 3. The thirde for that S. Peter sayth No Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation 4. The fourth for that to appeale to the Scriptures dooth seeme to denie all vnwritten verities 5. The fyft is for that it were a great absurditie not to haue a certaine Iudge of absolute Authoritie in the interpreting of Scriptures c. 6. The sixt is for that in refusing the Authoritie of the Churches absolute Iudgement herein we seeme to denie the holie ghost to be the spirite of trueth Written by Robert Crovvley ¶ Imprinted at London by John Charlewood 1581. ¶ To all the Pope his Catholiques in England or else where IN September last I with others was by sufficient Authoritie appointed to cōfer with such of your sort as at that tyme were in her Maiesties prisons of the Marshalsey the white Lion in Sowthwark restrained of lybertie for refusing to conforme themselues to that order of Religiō which is now publique in this Realme of England And according to our duety in that behalfe Maister Henrie Tryp and I did as we were required make our spedy repaire first to the one prison and then to the other And after some conference had with certain that were close prisoners we came to confer with one Maister Thomas Povvnde Gentleman in the lodging where he then laye And finding him altogeather vnwylling to enter into any conference by speaches because as he sayd he feared to fall into daunger of Lawe therby I aunswered that he ought to haue a better opinion of her Maiestie by whose appointment we were come to offer cōference then to thinke that she would send vs to entrap him or any other her subiects For she needeth not to seeke more aduantage against any of them then that which already by their disloyall behauiour they haue giuē her So that if she would proceede against them in rigour of lawe and not in mercie she might cut their heads from their shoulders and make no more to doo with them But being desirous by some meanes to bring to passe that they might become as obedient subiects to her as she both hath and dooth shew her selfe a louing Prince to them she would not abridge them of lybertie which for good and iust yea necessary causes shee is now enforced to doo but that shee would withal prouide that by cōferēce with such as be learned they might either be drawn from their errours or els be found to be obstinate and wilfully blinde But none of these speaches could mooue maister Pownd to like of any conference by speaches Yet notwithstanding he sayd he was ready to confer by wryting and offered so to doo Whereunto I aunswered that we had no commission to deale that way but yet if he would write I promised to aunswer him in writing Vpon this he pulled a Pāphlet out of his bosome the copie wherof I haue caused to be set before mine aunswer called in such as he thought meete to heare it read And after he had read it he deliuered it to me to be aunswered And this was done the. 7. day of September The ninth of the same month I began to shape him an aunswer and finished the same with as much conuenient speed as I could being letted with busines besides that busines enough to occupy som mā thorowly But by Gods helpe the time was not long before the aunswer was finished But in this meane whyle I know not by what occasion Maister Povvnd was remoued to another prisō further of so that I could not come to delyuer mine aunswer to him neyther did I thinke it meete to be sent to him immediatly from me because I vnderstoode that the right Reuerend Father the Lorde Bishop of London had commaunded him to be remooued thence I did therefore reade in the hearing of as many of your sorte as I then found in the Marshalsey bothe the Reasons contayned in Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet and also mine aunswers to the same Promising that with as much speede as I might I would send bothe to my sayd Lord the Bishop with my Letters beseeching him at his discretion eyther to send mine aunswer to Maister Pownd or els to cause him to be brought back againe to the Marshalsey whether I might repaire to proceede in conference with him by writing But my sayde Lorde being oppressed with other affaires more waightie and thereby enforced to commit this busines to some other that were not so carefull for the dispatch thereof as I would they had And I my selfe also not altogether vnoccupied otherwise did not as in dutie I ought call vpon my sayd Lord but supposing that mine aunswer had beene shortly conuayed to Maister Povvnd because I heard not of his returne to the Marshalsey I rested looking to haue receyued some replie from him tyll at the last euen in the Moneth of December last I heard that the Copies of his Pamphlet were made common to many of your sorte with great brags that the reasons therein contayned are vnaunswerable Yea and some of our side were required to aunswer them euen as Maister Povvnd had required me Whereupon repayring to my sayd Lorde the Bishop I receaued my sayde aunswer againe the 4. of this Ianuarie with his allowance to publish it in Printe together with the Copies of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet and the breefe aunswer that Maister Trippe wrote after I had finished mine as by the same may appeare And this was thought needefull to be don because the Copie of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet is already made so common our annswers being as yet made knowne but to fewe And that you may haue that firste in sight that you like best I haue caused the Printer to place the Copy of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet immediatly after this short Epistle Reade these Reasons for your pleasure and our aunswers for your profite And if you mislike with our aunswers replie if you can You shall finde them of our side that will deale with you faithfully and freendely too Be not obstinately and wilfully blinde least you doo thereby prouoke yea and enforce our mercifull Prince contrary to her naturall inclination to deale with you in Iustice without mercie Though we haue great cause to thinke that you all the sorte of you doo hate both our Prince and vs for that Religion which bothe she and we do professe yet I dare assure you that bothe she and all the Honorable learned of her Realme yea and all of all estates
man but as holie men of God spake it inspired by the holy Ghost yet most contrary to this expresse rule euery priuate mā shall haue libertie to interprete it to his owne peruers will after a priuate interpretation otherwise then at first it was inspired to the holy men If euer man maie appeale from the Ecclesiasticall sence of the vniuersall Churche to the Text it self as he vnderstandeth it 4 The fourth Reason is becausé by appealyng onely to the Scripture you séeme to giue men libertie to denie all vnwritten verities which wee haue receiued of the Churche either by expresse definition in generall Counsaile or but by tradition And I beleeue at my firste na 〈…〉 of unwritten verities Maister Crowley and his 〈…〉 straight waie as though all suche were 〈…〉 to temper their follie I will not saie their pride a 〈…〉 that point I aske them all this question How thei proue the Trinitie of persones in the Vnitie of the substaunce in Godheade by the expresse Scriptures Or the two distinct natures in Christe and but one person Or God the Father to be Ingenitus Or the proceedyng of the holy Ghoste both from the Father and from the Sonne as from one Fountaine or the descendyng of Christ into Hell by plaine wordes of Scripture beyng therefore of many now a daies flatly deuyed Or the custome of Baptising of Infants seeyng the Scripture soundeth rather as though thei should bee taught first their faith before their were Baptized saiyng Goe and teathe all Nations Baptizyng them c. Or why we should kéepe the Sondaie now at all and not the Saterdaie rather whiche was the Iewes Sabothe daie that the Scripture speaketh of to be sanctified Although your Puritanes which goe to plough vpon all the Churches Holydaies seeme not yet to know the Sondaie for any of their makyng or why we should not abstaine now still like Iewes from strangled meates as the Apostels once decreed in the Acts and by no expresse Scripture againe abrogated Yea then why maie not any Hereticke denie al our thrée Créedes both the Apostles Créede the Nicen Creede as it is called the Creede of Athanasius seing neuer a one of these is written in Scripture expresly but all lefte vs by tradition onely vpon credite of the Churche Marke you not how these Bedlem Scripture men would shake all the foundations of our Christian faith by binding vs to beleue nothing but Scripture Do not these blinde guides thinke you leade us a trim daunce towarde infidelitie Thus muche of the fourth Reason 5 The fift is because that without a certaine Iudge for interpretatiō of Scripture absolutely this absurditie would followe y t God which is the Author of al perfectiō and disposeth euery thing in swete decent order had left his vniuersall Church in yearth in this confusion y t when soeuer any doubtfull question should arise vpō construction of his holy will there were no prouision at all ordained by God for deciding of such strifes and preseruation of concord among his people and then certainly the kingdome of Gods Churche were not so well prouided for in their gouernment as euery ciuill kindome is by pollicie of carnall men amōgst whom none almost are so barbarous but that thei haue Counsellers for gouernment of their state Iudges for expounding executing of their lawes aswell as lawes written or els it were ridiculus would not he be counted a very wise man thinke you in one of our Parliamentes whiche should steppe vp like a graue Burgesse and perswade all his fellowes that for asmuche as thei had a noble and an auncient Lawe written vnto them the Realme should haue no longer neede henceforthe of any Prince nor any Rulers nor Peeres nor Iudges nor Iustices nor ciuill Magistrates but euery man vppon his worde for the warrant would bee content to gouerne hym self orderly by the lawe written whiche as his wisedome thinkes is plaine enough And truely no wiser be thei but muche more to bee laughed to scorne whiche will haue the Scripture to bee the onely Iudge for euery man to appeale vnto and refuse all authoritie of the Churche in expoundyng thereof for who knoweth not that the Arrian Heretickes brought fortie places of Scripture for their horrible Heresie more then the Catholikes had against theim but all falsely vnderstoode whiche when it is so misunderstoode and misapplied then S. Augustine calleth it the Heretickes howe wherewith they shoote out their owne venemous arrowes And Vincent Lir. saieth it is then the Sheepes cloathyng whiche the Wolfe doeth shroude hym self in because that when a simple bodie feeleth the softnesse as it were of his fliece he should not mistrust the Tyrannie of his teethe That is to saie of his false construction of Scripture wherwith he would deuour his saule So did the Deuill hymself alleadge Scripture vnto Christ and as oft as any Heretikes aleadge Scripture to vs against the Catholike faith So oft saieth Vincentius we maie be out of doubt the Deuill doeth speake vnto vs by their mouthes and saieth vnto vs euen as he saied vnto Christ Si filius deies mitte te deorsum as much to saie If thou wile bee the sonne of God and professor of his holy Gospell cast thy self doune from the high authoritie and tradition of this Catholike Churche whom if wee aske againe why we should so doe then saieth Vincentius he commeth out with Scriptum est enim because it is written saieth he in the holie booke from thence thou must learne a newe lesson of me how to be a right Christian man To whom we must saie then Vade Satan non tentabis c. Auaunt Sathan c. and that with greate feruencie of faith for more perillous is the temption of such a flatteryng Serpent saieth S. Augustine then the roaryng of an angrie Lyon because the one wee flee from with feare but the other with entising maie come the nerer to sting vs. 6 The sixt reason most waightie of all is this because if you will refuse the authoritie of the Churches absolute iudgement vppon the Scriptures true cense you shall seeme plainly to denie the holy Ghoste to be the Spirite of truthe whiche vppon the Apostles and all the faithfull was sent doune with visible signes and with his Church is promised to remaine vnto the worldes ende by these wordes of our Sauiour I will aske my Father and he shall send you an other comforter to tarie with you for euer the spirite of truth And a little after thus The holy Ghoste the comforter whom my Father will sende in my name shall teache you all truthe Loe the Church is the surest Iudge and none shure but the Churche for all men in doubtes of Scripture because it hath a promise that it shall neuer erre in iudgement whiche is notably confirmed by the Prophet Esay saiyng This is my couenaunt with them saieth our Lorde my spirite whiche is in thee and my worde which I
haue put in thy mouth shal not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede nor of thy seedes seede now nor euer to the worldes ende O most comfortable promise that the Spirite of truth shall neuer departe out of the Churches mouth O fit Iudge appointed to be Iudge of Scripture for our profites without presumption Remember then I praie you what a sottishe opinion this is which is held to the contrarie that euery priuate man whom belike you wil imagine to be one of the Church shall haue good beleue to be his own Iudge in vnderstandyng of Scriptures as your Craftes men are and yet that the authoritie of the whole vniuersall Churche shall not presume to â—ake any iudgement vpon them Grauntyng this as you must needes that the Church whiche is our Mother as the Scripture saieth must needes teach all her children at first to beleeue in God seyng faithe must come by hearing and also to know the Scripture and yet that the same Church being the piller and sure staie of touch shall not be absolute Iudge imperial Scholemistresse to teache vs all how to beleue in God and how to vnderstande the Scripture For the blindnesse of your hartes I maie saie as iustly to you as Sainct Paule saied to the Galathians O Insensati c. O ye foolishe fellowes who hath bewitched you not to obeye vnto the truthe Which euen of Infantes and suckyng babes as it were is discerued as cleare as the Sunne So that you must not disdaine Maister Trippe to be tripped in this matter for a silie seducer to maintaine as ye doe all so grose all opinion beyng the forrest in deeds for al suche Foxes to litter their whelps in Therefor 〈…〉 to conclude this Assertion acquite your selues as well as you can why you maie not all bee iustly suspected to denie the descendyng of the holie Ghoste vnto the Churche for as muche as you refuse the Churches sentence in iudgement with whom the holie Ghoste is promised alwaies to remaine and in truthe to directe them Haec est fides mea quia est Catholica This is my faith because it is the Catholique faith Thomas Pownde The Aunswere to Pownde His sixt Reasons TO the six Reasons that you set doune to proue that to prouoke to be tryed by the holy Scriptures onely in the controuersies that maie arise aboute Religion is no orderly waie I might in fewe wordes aunswere thus The first Reason is fonde the second is false the thirde is foolishe the fowerth is fantasticall the fift is fradulent and the sixt is fanaticall Thus might your Pamphlet bee aunswered in sixe wordes as before you did reade it before so many witnesses as it pleased you to call to the hearyng of it I told you that I thought it might But least you should triumphe after your manner and saie that not beyng able to aunswere your Reasons at large I shifte you of with shorte sentences I will bestowe some more tyme whiche I could bestowe muche better in aunsweryng your rude Reasones I hope so that neither you nor any of your side shall be able reasonably to replie The first Reason FIrst you saie that suche controuersies maie not bée tried by the holie Scriptures because thei be mute and dumbe vttering to vs from the booke nothing but onely the wordes and not the sense wherein the life as it were of the Scripture doeth consist Howe fonde this Reason is I thynke your self should see For what sence can there bee in woordes that can not bee vttered by woordes Or what wordes can any manne vse in openyng the sense of woordes written but that the same beeyng sette downe in writyng maie as well open the cense as thei might beeyng spoken and not written you seeme to imagine that we would haue the holy Scriptures as thei bee written in bookes enclosed in coueringes to be Iudge of suche matters as you speake of for otherwise how can you call them mute and dumbe The Prophet Ieremie was commaunded to write all the wordes of the Lorde against Iuda and Israell and all other Nations in a booke and to cause the same to bee reade in the hearyng of all the people and so he did as appeareth in the .26 of his Prophesies that euery manne might bee turned awaie from their owne moste wicked waies and so the Lorde might be mercifull to them After this manner would we haue controuersies iudged by the Scriptures Not as thei bee written and kepte secret in hookes but beeyng reuereudly read wayed and considered with the circumstaunces of person tyme and place with all other necessarie circumstaunces so that the Readers beyng willyng to haue their controuersies ended dooe submit them selues to that iudgement that thei shall finde in the Scriptures so read waied and considered As for your Opinatiue man and wrangler that you speake of if he will stande still in his opinion as you your self doe notwithstandyng that it is made manifest by the holy Scriptures that his opinioÌ„ is not right he must bee taken for an Hereticke and after one or twoo warnynges reiected beyng subuerted as one that synneth euen condempned by his owne conscience The seconde Reason Your second Reason I doe call false for that you doe falsely reporte that the holie Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries And for that you do falsely affirme that S. Austen did sharpely reboke Honoratus for rushyng so boldely into the holie Scriptures where as he would not be so bolde as to take vpon him to vnderstand suche a Poet as Terence was without a Maister Firste I would wishe you to weigh well the wordes of S. Paule written to Timothie Doe thou saieth S. Paule to Timothie continue in those thynges whiche thou hast learned and are committed vnto thee knowyng of whom thou hast learned them and that thou hast known euen from thine Infancie the holy Scriptures which are sufficient to instructe thee to saluation through that faithe whiche is in Christe Iesus Euery Scripture that was written by diuine inspiratioÌ„ is profitable to teache to correct to reproue and to instructe in righteousnesse that the man of God maie be perfectly instructed to euery good worke If all Scriptures bee so full of harde and deepe misteries as you haue saied then can not any Scripture bee so profitable to teache c. As Sainct Paule telleth Timothie That all Scriptures be neither can the man of GOD bee thereby perfectly instructed to euery good worke We reade that our Sauiour Christe did sharply reprehende his two Disciples as he walked with them towardes Emaus for that thei were so dull and harde to beleeue that whiche the Prophetes had so plainly spoken Ought not Christe ê™ he to sufter these thinges and so to enter into his glorie As though he should haue saied are you so doltishe and blockishe that you vnderstande not so plaine speeches as the Prophets haue vsed concernyng the sufferyng es of Christe And
expectantes satagite immaculati inuiolati ei inueniri in pace domini nostri longanimitatem salutem arbitremini sicut charissimus frater noster Paulus secundum datam sibi sapientiam scripsit vobis sicut in omnibus epistolis loquens in eis de hijs in quibus sunt quaedam difficilia intellectu quae indocti instabiles deprauant sicut caeteras scripturas ad suam ipsorum perditionem And I thinke that you your selfe would translate them into Englishe thus Wherefore dearely beloued waityng for these thinges giue your endeuour to be founde vnto hym in peace beeyng without spot and vndefiled and thinke that the long sufferyng of our Lorde is saluation euen as our moste deare brother Paule according to the wisedom that is giuen vnto him hath written to you euen as in euery Epistle speakyng in them of those thinges amongst whiche are some thinges that are harde to be vnderstanded whiche vnlearned and vnstable menne doe depraue euen as thei doe other Scriptures to their owne destruction I trust you doe see now that we neede not that reason whiche you doe call childishe and is not indeepe so childishe but that it hath in all ages been and is still allowed amongst the learned for the beste rule in vnderstandyng of places of the Scripture wherein is any difficultie But now you doe begge or rather take leaue to pose vs one question furder to the quicke And thus you saie How is it possible to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures which is Canonicall Scripture and which is not c. You seeme to bee perswaded that this question toucheth to the quicke in deede For you affirme plainly that if any Infidell Hereticke or Arbeist shall denie any parte of the olde or newe Testament or the whole olde and new Testament as in tymes past some haue doen. c. We haue no Ankor holde against such but onely the Reuelation of God to the Churche by Tradition which Churche is the piller and sure staie of truth c. I confesse that the Church is the Piller and sure staie of truthe as Sainct Paule writeth But that this truth is reuealed to the Churche by Tradition as you write that I denie For God hath taught and doth still teach the truthe to his Churche by the worde of truth and not by Reuelation or Tradition And that worde of truthe is sufficient and needeth not that any thyng should bee added to it either by Reuelation or by Tradition Yea there is an horrible cursse pronounced against all such as shall adde any thyng to in The true Catholique Churche is in deede the Piller and sure staie whereon that truthe that is taught by the worde of truthe doeth staie For that worde of truthe is the voyce of her Sheepeheard and she delighteth in hearyng that voyce but the voyce of a straunger she can not abyde to heare The truthe taught by the voyce of her Sheepehearde she laieth vp in her harte and all her delight is to lette men see it in her life and conuersation that séeing her good lyfe they may be occasioned therby to glorifie her spouse Christe and his and her heauenly Father This is that authoritie that S. Austine sayth moued him to beléeue the Gospell And this authoritie caused him to write thus against that Epistle of Manichaeus which the Maniches called theyr foundation Ego veró Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas Surely I would not beléeue the Gospell except the authoritie of the Church dyd mooue me thereto Not many lines before those words S. Austine sayth thus to the Maniches Apud vos vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat c. That is Amongst you where no part of that thing is which might allure and holde me there soūdeth only a promising of the trueth which vndoubtedly if it be shewed foorth so manifestly that it may not be doubted of it is to be preferred before all those thinges that doo holde me in the Church I pray you Maister Pownde ponder well these wordes of Austine and be not afrayde with Austine to yéelde to the manifest trueth when it shall be manifested to you onely because it lacketh the consent of Peoples and Nations the authoritie of Myracles the nourishment of hope the increase of looue the establishment of Antiquitie the holde from Peters seate the succession of Priests and the name of Catholique For S. Augustine sayth That the manifest trueth must be preferred before all these But if you wyll marke it well you shall finde that the trueth which we holde and teach and would wishe you and all your sort to embrace dooth not lacke the chéefest of those thinges that mooued S. Austine first to embrace it For it is the same that first gotte credite by those Myracles that were wrought by Christe and his Apostles It was and is styll nourished by hope It was and is styll increased by looue it is also confirmed by that seate which you call Peters and hath the succession of Priests although not in such sort as you allowe of And last of all it hath the right name of Catholique Thus I hope you doo now sée that you haue not rightly applied eyther the words of Paule or of Austine mynding thereby to prooue that the Church of Roome being such a Church as nowe it sheweth it selfe to be is the Piller of trueth and that Catholique Church whereunto all Christians should and must of necessitie cleaue if they wyll be saued by Christe Your conclusion wherein you aduise all men to beware of fléeing from the Church to the iudgement of the Scriptures onely c. Was not so aduisedly made as were séemely to be made by one that were so well séen in the writings of y e Fathers as you would séeme to be For as I thinke yea I am perswaded that I may safely affirme there is not one of the auncient Fathers of your minde in that poynt Saint Austine in his Epistle fortie and eight written to Vincentius sayth thus Noli ergò frater contra diuina tam multa tam clara tam indubitata testimonia c. Doo not therefore Brother shewe thy selfe wylling to gather out of the wrytinges of Bishoppes reproches against so heauenly so many so cleare and so vndoubted testimonies whether the same Bishops be on our side as Hillarius or of the vnitie it selfe before the faction of Donatus was separated from it as Cyprian and Agripinus First for that that kinde of writing must be distinguished from the authoritie of the Canon for they are not so read that testimonie should be taken out of them that it might not be lawfull for any man to be of a minde contrarie thereto if perhappes they shall in any place be of other minde then the trueth requireth For we are of that number that may not disdayne to take euen vnto our selfe this saying of the Apostle And if ye be of an
Diuell him selfe dyd alleadge scripture against our sauiour Christe and dyd applie it as rightlie as Bonifacius the eight did when after he had one day shewed him self in his Pontificalibus that is his Popely attyre and the next day in the robes of an Emperour he sayd thus Ecce duo gladij hic Beholde heere are two swordes Another of your Popes setting his foote vppon the necke of Fredericus the Emperour sayd Super Aspidem Basiliscum ambulabis conculcabis Leonem Draconem Upon the Aspe and Basiliske shalt thou walke and vpon the Lyon and Dragon shalt thou treade And surely as often as these wresters of the Scriptures doo speake vnto vs the Diuell dooth as Vincentius sayth speake by theyr mouthes c. But héere I leaue your Vincentius and you together tyll at some more leysure I may reade him ouer I can not thinke that hée dooth handle that place of Mathewe so grosely as you would make vs beléeue that he dooth But though he doo the matter is not great For there is none that hath any sence or féeling in the vnderstanding of the Scriptures but the same may easily sée that when our sauiour Christe sayde Non tentabis DominuÌ„ Deum tuum Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God He had a farre other meaning then that which you woulde make vs beléeue that Vincentius dooth gather of these wordes Yea Athens I dyd first write this aunswer I haue read ouer Vincentius and haue founde that you doo belye him But as one mistrusting the authoritie of your Vincentius you clap in the necke of it one sentence of S. Austine but you tell vs not where we shall finde it But if those wordes be Austines as it may be that they are they wyll and doo serue much better against you and your sort then they can against vs. And thus much to your fift Reason which I haue called Fraudulent for the cause afore mencioned ¶ The â—ixt Reason YOur sixt and last Reason most weyghtie of all is this Because if we wyll refuse the authoritie of the Churches absolute iudgement vppon the scriptures true sence We shall séeme plainely to deny the holy Ghost to be the spirite of trueth c. This Reason I haue called Fanaticall For that in making so great an accoumpt of this Reason you séeme not to be in your right wittes What bedlem would abuse the wordes written in the fowretéene of Iohn as you doo to prooue that because our Sauiour Christe dyd praye for and obtayne and dyd giue the holy Ghost the spirite of trueth to his holy Apostles and dyd promise that the same should remayne with them for euer and instruct them in all trueth therfore the same holy Ghost must néedes be and remayne styll in that Church which agréeeth with the Church of the Apostles onely in name and is no more lyke the Apostles Church in doctrine and manners then blacke is lyke to whyte and God is lyke the Diuell The Wise man sayth that Wisedome wyll not enter into a malicious soule neyther wyll she dwell in a body that is subiect to sinnes For the holy spirite of Wisedome flyeth from deceite c. And shall we thinke that the holy Spirite of trueth hath bene and wyll be styll amongst such a rabble of Popes Cardinalles and other Catholiques as your owne Histories make mencion of that haue besides theyr beastly lyfe made decrées directlie contrarie to Gods commaundements Yea shall we thinke that the Spirite of Christe dwelleth amongst those Catholiques that at this day doo in the twentie and fiue Session of the Councell of Trent pronounce all such accurssed as doo shewe them selues eyther by doctrine or otherwise to mislyke with the hauing of Images in Churches seeing the same is dyrectly contrarie to the second commaundement of God Shall we thinke that the holy spirite of God dyd guide those your Catholique Fathers when they dyd in the same Session blanche the counterfeyting of Gods Maiestie by an Image And thinke you that Esay the Prophet if he were now lyuing would allowe your applying of his wordes to such Catholiques and to theyr doinges séeing the same Prophete dooth so earnestly speake against the making of Images scorning bothe them and theyr makers and plainly affyrming that they be good for nothing The Scribes the Pharisies the high Priestes and Doctors of the lawe might as well haue mainteyned theyr corrupt Doctrine and Traditions against Christ and his Apostles euen by those words of Esay that you applie for your purpose as you may now by the same mayntaine all the corrupt Doctrines and Traditions of your Catholiques For they dyd then perswade them selues as you doo now that the promise was made to them could not but be perfourmed to them And that therfore Christe and his fauters were Scismatiks and méete to be excommunicated as by them they were in déede and as by you we be now But to our great and vnspeakable comfort our sauiour Christe hath foretolde vs of this saying These wordes haue I spoken vnto you that you should not be offended They wyll excommunicate you and the time will come wherin whosoeuer shall hyll you will think that he dooth God good seruice And that promise also that you would sâ—me to reioyce so much inâ—ia in déede as coÌ„fortable to vs as you would haue men thinke that it is to you We knowe that the Spirite of trueth departeth not from Christe in his members the Church the true and vnfeyned Catholique Church Neyther doo the wordes that the heauenly Father put into the mouth of Christ his onely begotten Sonne depart out of his mouth the true Catholique Church and yet dare not we make that Church Iudge of that worde For they were not put into her mouth to that ende that shée should iudge them but that shée should in all her doinges be iudged tryed and directed by them As sottishe as you say our opinion is we are so farre from holding that euerie priuate man may haue leaue to be his owne Iudge in vnderstanding the Scripture that we doo not graunt it to the best learned but doo leaue it to him that béeing with humilitie of minde sought in the Scriptures wyll be found there yea euen by Crafts men such as was Peter and his fellow fisher men For he respecteth not mens persons nor Occupations And vnto them that so séeke him there whether they be many or fewe he wyll open the sence of vnderstading that they may vnderstand as much as he knoweth to be méete for them to vnderstand And such as haue that humble spirit wyll not search for nor shewe them selues destrous to knowe any more Well now you conclude vpon that which you say we must néedes graunt that is that the Church is our mother as Scripture sayth Well I am glad that you are now become a Scripture man But I pray you where is that Scripture written that sayth that your Catholique Church
is our mother It wyll be harde for you to finde it I wryte not this as one that would deny the Church that is the Spowse of Christe to be the mother of Christians in that sence that she is the Spowse of Christe But I write thus to let you sée that I lyke not with your manner of concluding vpon this being once graūted That this mother of ours that must néedes teach all her chyldren fyrst to beléeue in God for that faith commeth by hearing and also to know the Scriptures and is the pyller and sure stay of trueth must néedes be the absolute Iudge and imperiall Schoolemistresse to teach vs all how to beléeue in God and to vnderstande the Scriptures This geare hangeth together lyke Iermans lyps as the prouerbe is If you had sayde thus The Church being the spowse of Christe is our mother and hath receyued commission from her husband and our father Christ to teach vs all those things that he hath taught and commaūded her to doo to teach vs his children to doo wherfore if we shall not hearken to her as to our chéefe Schoole mistresse vnder her husbād and our father so long as she teacheth nothing but that which our father hath commaunded her to teach vs we shall dispise him because we despise her as it is written Qui vos spernit me spernit He that despiseth you despiseth me If you had written thus a man might haue made some sence of your wordes But as you haue written you séeme to make the gray Mare the better Horse And to spoyle our Father Christe of all his power that our Mother his Wife may not be found with out absolute power I sée not therfore why I may not for this blindnesse of your heartes say as iustly to you as S. Paule dooth to the Galathians O insensati c. Oh you foolish fellowes who hath bewitched you not to obey vnto the trueth which euen of Infants and sucking Babes as it were is discerned as cléere as the Sunne So that you must not disdayne though Maister Trippe doo tryppe you in your owne turne as a séely seducer to maintaine as you doo all so grosse an opinion béeing the forrest in déede for all such Foxes to litter theyr whelpes in And héere you séeme to haue had one fling at Maister Foxe also because you vnderstoode that he is one allowed in the Kéepers warrant to haue conference with you I meruayle howe Maister Turnebull escaped your frumpping pen. But to conclude this assercion Acquite your selfe as well as you can why you should not all be suspected to be Antichristians for as much as you doo so stowtly mayntayne that man of sinne that setteth vp himselfe aboue all that is called God and sitteth in the Temple of God and boasteth himselfe as though he were God Whome the Lord shall destroy euen with the breath of his mouthe And that worde that you woulde haue to be iudged by your Antichristian Churche shall iudge bothe Antichriste and his Church And that holy Ghost that came downe from Heauen vpon our Christes Apostles hath remayned and dooth still remaine and to the ende of the world shall remaine with his Catholique Church That is with that Church which beléeueth holdeth and protesteth that Catholique Faith that Iesus Christe commaunded his Apostles to teach Catholiquely to all Nations and sortes of peoples in all parts of the world Promising that the holy Ghost should alwayes remaine with the faithfull to direct them in all trueth and godlinesse of lyuing Thus hauing first considered the wordes of our Sauiour in sending vs to the Scriptures saying Searche the Scriptures c. I haue founde that the conclusion that you make vppon the manner of speach that our Sauiour vseth in that place of Saint Iohn his Gospell is not Secundum vnanimen consensum Patrum that is According to the agréeable consent of the Fathers and therefore condempned by your Fathers in the Councell of Trent in the fowrth Session Saint Austine dooth accoumpt acurssed whatsoeuer is taught other then out of the Scriptures of the Lawe and the Gospell Lib. 3. Chap. 6. Against the Letters of Petilian And in his booke of Christian doctrine and the .37 Chap. He saith that without the authoritie of Scripture our Faith dooth but stacker or stumble And againe in his .166 Epistle he sayth That bothe Christe and his Church are learned to be knowne in the Scriptures Basill sayth that whatsoeuer is taught without the holy Scripture is sinne Chrysostome in his second exposition vppon Mathew sayth that the true Church cānot other wise be known then by the holy Scriptures Homilia 49. Yea Saint Austine in his first booke that he wrote against the Epistle of Parmenianus and the second Chap dooth accoumpt it to be rashnesse to giue credite to any that dooth not prooue by Scripture that which he affyrmeth I dare not therefore giue credite to that which you haue written tyll you prooue it by Scripture As for your sixe Reasons that you stay vpon I haue conceyued and doo vnderstand what they be And as in the beginning of your Pamphlet you desire so haue I taken Pen in hande and haue done what I can to confute them And as I thinke haue doone it sufficiently If you can replie doo you take pen in hande againe and doo what you are able I wyll not refuse to trie the trueth of these matters with you or with the best on your side Haec est fides mea quia vera Christiana Catholica Apostolica This is my Faith because it is the true Catholique and Apostolique Faith Robertus Crowleus Subscripsit Henricus Trippe Hijs quae à Domino R. C. responsa sunt ¶ A breefe Aunswer to Maister Pownds six Reasons Written by Maister Henrie Trippe MAister Pownd hauing perused the aunswer of Maister Crowly to your sixe Reasons and finding them sufficiently aunswered by that godly Father whome you thinke not to be worthy naming as you write to me I thought good rather to subscribe to his aunswer then to frame an other How be it to take from you the aduauntage of glorying which I thinke you will easily take against me as not being able to answere you I wil breefly vrge you in some pointes wherein I sée he hath spared you And first I must néedes shew you that all your Reasons are set one a tottering foundation because y e Iudge her selfe is not cleared of suspition for you take it as a thing graūted that the Churche of Rome is the spowse of Christ which thing is in cōtrouersie betwene vs. It had bene therfore an orderly procéeding to haue dealt first with that matter and to haue put it out of doubt that your Reasons in appealing to her iudgement might haue bene the stronger Pighius one of your owne men confesseth that the question of the Church ought first to be discidid Thus you builde vpon a false principle and ouerthrowe the force of your owne
Reasons if happily they had any force Secondly that which you bring out of y e fift of S. Iohns Gospell to prooue the scripture to be but witnes bearer to y e truth and not the Iudge though it haue some shew of reason yet being well wayed it well vanishe for you imagine because you finde the worde witnesse which is Verbum forence That by by you must haue a pitched Court a iudgement seate where shall be presented many persons in seuerall places one to be witnesse an other to be Iudge and perhaps some to be iustified and some to be condempned But if you had wayed other places of scripture you shoulde haue séene that the holy Ghoste admitteth no such straight collctions but framing his writing to our capacitie Useth some time one phrase and sometime an other And you might haue found where the worde is called a Iudge as in the twelfth Chapter of the same Euangelist If any man heare my wordes and beleeue them not I iudge him not c. He that refuseth me and receyueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him The word that I haue spoken shall iudge him in the last day For I haue not spoken of my selfe c. Now iudge you how soundly you haue gathered it is witnesse therefore not Iudge or not rather bothe a witnesse a Iudge So might you reason of the diuerse Metaphors giuen to the word which is called Bread Wine Oile Milke Hony Water Raine Light Fyre Golde Siluer Pearle and Iron rod Scepter Sword the breath of the Lords mouth Now were it not a fonde Reason to gather because it is the breath of the Lordes mouth therfore it is no Sword because it is a sword or Iron rod therfore it is not Gold c. Or because it is Gold therfore it is no bread when as the holy Ghost hath set downe those sundrie Metaphors to expresse the power dignitie and commoditie of the worde But this is none of your six Reasons and therfore the weight of your cause lyeth not vpon it yet in pronouncing your Treatise before witnesse you gaue it a greate force ¶ Now to your Reasons YOur first Reason is grouÌ„ded vpon a false principle for you imagine our church to be without a Ministerie to teach and open the Scriptures which is not so yea rather your Préestes are mute and not onely that but ye close vp the booke of God will not let it be read to make the Scriptures wholy mute least they might bewray your corruptions But God be thanked God hath opened the mouthes of many by the Scriptures to witnes agaynst your errors and so iudge you by the same wordes if you amend not Your second Reason pretendeth that the Scripture is verie full of hard déepe mysteries surely I confesse that the Scripture hath his harde Misteries and hard places but hath it not also his easie familyar doctrines Is there not meate for all Estates Milke for babes and strong meate for good stomacks But I dare be bolde to auouch that it was Sathans policie to robbe the people of the whole vse of the Scriptures vnder pretence of ambiguitie as though the whole Scriptures were nothing else but Rydles As for the tryall of harde places the learned haue set downe two excellent rules which I meruaile you can reiect the one is conference of Scripture with Scripture the other is begging of wisedome of God who giueth it to the Babes lyttle ones and hydeth it from the wise in their owne conceyte who stumble at playne places not being dyrected by Gods spirite But howsoeuer they labour to trie the spirites or whatsoeuer knowledge they doo attaine they leaue the suueraigntie of the iudgement to the word Your thyrde Reason grounded on Saint Peters testimony 2. Peter 1. Erreth in not considering what the Apostle meaneth by priuate or not priuate you séeme to place it in the multytude of personnes that giue the interpretation but the Apostle placeth it in the authoritie of the Author of the word Therefore one Prophete speaking in the Lordes name being truely sent from the Lorde is more to be beléeued then the whole packe of Préestes resisting of mallice or ignorance and they being many are priuate and one Prophete being but one is not priuate Secondly you pretende that euerie man may interprete the Scriptures as he lysteth which is a false charge But we desyre them and allowe them to reade the Scriptures and to sée whether those thinges which we teache them be so or no according to the example of the faithfull Acts. 17. And as they are commaunded by Christe and the Apostle 1. Iohn 4. In your fowrth Reason whyle you went about to temper our pride as you say it séemeth you disteÌ„pered your own wits in putting downe so many things in y e name of vnwritten verities which notwithstaÌ„ding are written you aske of the matter when I suppose ye meane y e termes brought in by the Fathers to expresse the doctrine more plainlie As the word Trinity person and other to make plaine the doctrine against the Arrians Héere you were foully ouerséen And you would make as beléeue that the Church hath authoritie to poynt vs newâ— Articles of faith without warrant of scripture she was wont to challenge some liberty in Ceremonies indifferent things but you giue her power in Articles of faith Your fift Reason stumbleth on the false principle whereon you grounded your first Reason where you iudge no gouernment to be in our Church because we giue the highest rule to the worde gouerne thereby as by a most perfect lawe after which no newe Parliament néede to be called to adde or diminishe from it but all men of all estates ought to put to theyr hands to sée it executed and kept for the which cause if they at any tyme assemble the worde written is theyr direction Against your sixt Reason I auouch that he that appealeth to the iudgement of the written worde dooth yéelde a most waighty Reason to ratifie the sending of the holy Ghost to his Church and that it is the spirite of trueth For 〈◊〉 the Apostles were so mightely endewed with the spirite that they bothe taught and left in writing the whole CouÌ„cels of God enough to make the man of God perfect c Then the Church that challengeth the promise of that spirite wherewith they were endewed must subscribe to that trueth which they haue lefte written for whatsoeuer is not agreeablâ— thereto commeth from an other spirit opposing it selfe against the spirit of God which is neuer contrarie to it selfe Thus I haue bréeflie layde down 〈…〉 which I could haue done more at large but Maâ—ster Crowley hath giuen you matter enough and yet more then eyther he or I can wryte is set downe by Chemnicius and others whose Treatises you might doo well eyther to reade for your learning or to impugne if you be able ¶ Your well wyller H. T. FINIS Iohn â— The first Reason The secoÌ„d Reason The third Reason 2. Pet. 1. d. The fourth Reason The fift Reason The sixt Reason Titu 3. 2. Tim. 3. Luk. 24. 1. Cor. 2. 2. Cor. 3. Aug. de verbis Domini ser 13. 2. Pet. 3. 1. Tim. 3. Tom. 6. Mark 16. Phil. 3. Epist 15. De Bapt. Libr. 2. Cap. 2. Ephe. 6. 1. Cor. 11. De Trini Libr. 15. Iam. 1. 1. Cor. 11. In. 1. Iohn Epist Cap. 2. 2. Pet. 1. Sessio 4. Lyranus in 2. Epi. Peter Psal 110. Math. 22. Tom. 3. Ephe. 3. Iohn 15. 20. 1. Pet. 3. Ieroni Tom. 4. Mark 10. 1. Cor. 7. Mark a. Apoc. 1. Collo 2. Acts. 15. Luk. 11. 1. Pet. 5. Tom. 1. Disti 16. An. 956. Vorat Plat. Plat. Volat. Volat. Plat. Psal 119. Esai 5. 1. Cor. 2. 1. Cor. 14. Luke 22. Psal 91. Alexan. 3. An. 1174. Math. 4. Sap. 4. Tom. 4. Esai 59. Esai 44. Iohn 16. Luke 10. In Asceticis
that doo vnfainedly professe that Religion that you hate doo vnfainedly looue you and pray for the opening of the eyes of your vnderstanding that you may see and feele and embrace your saluation in Christe and that being Englishmen or inhabiting within the English dominions you may know and acknowledge her Maiestie for your supreme Gouernor in all causes next and immediatly vnder Christe our onely vniuersall head Fare you well From my house at S. Gyles without Creplegate of London the. 6. of Ianuarie 1580. After the accoumpt of the Church of Englande and in the. 23. yeere of her Maiesties Reigne ⸪ Yours when you shall shew your selues to be true Christians and English men Robert Crovvley Clerk 7. September 1580. ¶ Sixe Reasons set downe to shew that it is no orderly way in cōtrouersies of faith to appeale to be tryed only by Scriptures as the absurde opinion of all the Sectaries is but the sentence definition of the Catholike Church by whome as by the Spowse of Christ alwayes inspired with the holy ghost the holy Scripture is to be iudged FIrst consider well these words of our Sauiour in sending vs to the Scriptures saying Searche the Scriptures for you thinke to haue eternall life in them And these are they that beare witnesse of me Marke well these wordes I say that the Scripture is but witnesse bearer to the trueth and not the Iudge to discerne of trueth for iudgement giuing belongeth not to the witnesse bearer although he be as a rule to leade and direct the Iudge in true iudgement But what if this witnesse should be currupted as no man will deny but it may yet this Iudge to whome the holy Ghost is promised will finde it and reforme it Vnderstād therfore my Reasons why of necessitie the Church must be Iudge of the Scriptures and take your Pen and confute them I pray you if you can 1. The first is because the written Text is mute and dumbe vttering nothing to vs from the Booke but only the wordes and not the sense wherein the lyfe as it were of the Scripture consisteth And what definitiue sentence can such a Iudge giue to ouer rule the conceyted minde of an opinatiue man which hath no euident meanes to pronounce any iudgement against him but onely to shewe him a dumbe signe in writing which a wrangler may conster styll to his owne vnderstanding against all the worlde 2 The second Reason is because the holy Scripture as S. Augustine sayth is very full of harde and déepe anysteries in so much that when Honoratus sayd to him as many vnlearned men say now a dayes that he vnderstood it well enough without helpe of any instructor Say you so sayth he you would not take vpon you to vnderstand such a Poet as Terence is well without a Maister and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries without a Maister and dare you rushe into the holy Scriptures which are so full of Diuine mysteries without a guide All Heresies sayth he come of nothing else Nisi dum scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene But whyle the good Scriptures are not well vnderstoode Héerto also S. Peter in his second Epistle Cap. 3. beareth witnesse saying That many misunder stood S. Paule in many harde places peruersly to their owne perdition But then you will say the harde places may easely he vnderstoode by conference of other Scriptures Well admit a chyldish reason for a worde or two That because they might so be among the humble minded therfore they must néeds be so though men be neuer so peruerse Yet giue mée leaue to pose you then one Question farther to y e quick Howe is it possible to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures which is Canonicall Scripture and which is not certainely if any Infidell would deny the olde Testament as some Heretikes in time past haue done and I praye God there be not many Atheistes at this day in England which be farther gone yet then they Yea if such a one should deny all the newe Testament also we haue no sure Anckor holde against him but the Reuelation of God by tradition to his Church which is the pyllor and sure stay of trueth which S. Augustine well séeing thought he might be bolde to say with due reuerence to God and holie Scripture bothe I should not beleue the Gospell except the authoritie of y e Church did moue me thereunto meanyng that the tradition of the vniuersall Churche and the testimonie of all the people of God in whom the holie Ghoste dwelleth must iustly moue vs to credite that whiche their authoritie doth commaunde vs to giue credite vnto Therefore let any man beware of fliyng from the Churches Iudgement to the Scripture onely least the Scripture it self should vtterly bee denied as by some Atheistes in Englande as I heare saie is alreadie And then might suche Infidels laugh all Heretickes to scorne for robbyng them selues of their owne defence But now to returne to my purpose if conference of one Scripture with an other might giue light enough to all men How happeneth it that all Sects vsing that conference yet thei can neuer agrre in their opinions but diuers men and all vsing suche conference doe yet construe it diuersly The vttermoste shifte thei haue is this suche a weake one as it is that the Reader must giue hymself to prayer for the truthe to be reuealed vnto hym Wherein marke I praie you the iutollerable pride of arrogant Hypocrites that thei will first mistrust Gods reuelation of the truthe to his Vniaersall Churche for the whiche Christe himself hath prayed and promised to teache them all tr 〈…〉 moste presumptuously to come and 〈…〉 pt God to haue that truthe reuealed onely to them selues whiche beyng reuealed many hundreth yeares agone and defined in generall Counsell by all the holie Fathers where the holie Ghoste is alwaies present or at leaste by the holie Doctors in their writynges set doune yet thei will not beleeue it nor harken vnto it yet this is their course and so as thei saie forsoothe thei praie very hartely though fewe of them can wring out any teares in their praiers but yet with suche a faithe in the Lorde as their owne terme is that they dooe all verely beleeue the truthe is reuealed vnto them And yet perdie thei must needes be all deceiued as long as thei dwell in dissention and are not in errors onely but one contrarie to an other who now must be the Iudge to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no but onely the Churche Or els shall thei not bee tried at all but continuall permission for infinite Legions of liyng spirites to be still vndetected that thei maie seduce more and more 3 The third Reason is because S. Peter saieth plainly that no Scripture is to bee taken after any miuate interpretatiō for it was not vttered after the will and fantasie of
other minde in any thing God wyll reueale the same to you also Thus you may sée that S Austine dooth not allowe the sentence of any man no nor the sentence of the vnitie it selfe which I vnderstand to be a generall Councell against the Canonicall Scripture The same Saint Austine wryting to Saint Ierome in his fifteene Epistle sayth thus Ego enim fateor charitati tuae c. I confesse sayth S. Austine I haue learned to giue this reuerende feare and honor onely to those Bookes of the Scriptures which nowe are called Canonicall that I doe firmely beléeue that none of the Authors of them haue in wryting erred any thing at all By this saying of Saint Austine it may appeare that he was of this minde that there may be errour euen in the decrées of your generall Councels Againe against the Donatistes Saint Austine wryteth thus Quis autem nesciat Scripturam canonicam c. Who can be ignoraunt sayth Saint Austine that the holy Scripture as well of the olde as of the newe Testament is conteyned within her owne boundes or lymittes and that the same is so preferred before all the latter wrytings of Bishops that concerning it there may be no doubt or controuersie at all whether any thing that is certainly knowne to be written in it be true or right And the writinges of Byshoppes which haue bene or be written after the confirmation of the Canon may be found faulte with if it happen that any thing therein doo swarue from the trueth eyther by more wyse spéeche of any other that is more expert in that matter or by the more graue Authoritie of other Bishoppes or the wisedome of menne better learned or by Councels yea and that the Councels them selues which are holden in particular Regions or Prouinces must without any doubting giue place to the authoritie of full Councels which are made of the vniuersall Christian world Yea that the full or generall Councels that are first holden may be amended by them that are holden afterwardes when by any experience of thinges that thing that before was shut is made open and that thing which lay hyd is made knowne And this may be done without any hautinesse of sacrilegious pride without any swelling throte of arrogancie without any contencion of spightfull enuie with holie humilitie with Catholique peace and with Christian Charitie Thus farre Austine Nowe I thinke you wyll confesse that your Catholique Church may erre or else that S. Austine one of the Doctors of that Church dyd erre For he sayth that the latter generall Councels may amend the former He sayth also that there may be no doubt or controuersie about the trueth of any thing that is knowne to be written in the Canonicall Scriptures Therefore blame vs not though we flée from the iudgement of the Church to the scriptures which can neuer deceaue vs. And as touching that inconuenience that you doo put vs in minde of which is the denying of the Scriptures by Atheists I pray you let me propone one question to you and so pose you as night to the quicke as you haue posed vs. What if your Church should vtterly be denied to be the Church of Christe Or what if those Atheists that be in Englande or else where should denie that Christe hath any Church at all or that there is or hath been any such Christe as we beléeue in Might not those Infidels thinke you laugh you to scorne for robbing your selues of your owne defence which is the worde of God which Saint Paule calleth the sworde of the Spirite But now you wyll returne to your purpose If conference of one Scripture with an other might giue lyght enough to all men Howe happeneth it that all sectes vsing that conference the sectaries can neuer agrée in theyr opinions c. To this not I but S. Paule shall giue you aunswer Oportet haereses esse vt hij qui probati sunt manifesti sint in vobis It can not be auoyded but that there must be heresies or sectes that they which be tryed may be made knowne amongst you Let S. Paule defend his owne assertion as he can I wyll betake me to that vttermost shift that you say we haue notwithstanding that you call it a weake one Saint Austine sayth that the Scriptures must be read by such as doo vndoubtedly beléeue that they are most true witnesses And these are his wordes Agant orando quaerendo bene viuēdo vt intelligant c. That is They must labour by prayer and by séeking and by lyuing well that they may vnderstand that is that they may sée in minde as much as may be séene that which they doo holde by faith And S Iames sayth If any man lacke wisedome let him aske it of God c. Thus may you sée that both S. Iames and S. Austine doo allowe of this shift which you doo accoumpt to be so weake and such intollerable pride Yea S. Austine addeth these wordes Quis hoc prohibeat imó veró ad hoc quis non hortetur Who can forbid this Yea rather who wyll not exhort héerunto doo you therfore accoūpt of it as you luste we wyll styll vse it as the ready way to attayne to that knowledge that is necessarie for vs. As for the reuealing of the trueth to the vniuersall Church for which Christe him selfe dyd praye we confesse that according to his promise Christe hath reuealed to them altogether and to euery perticular member amongst them as much as he knewe to be méete to be reuealed to them And so be the wordes of his promise Ille vos docebit omnia suggeret vobis omnia quae cūque dixero vobis He shall teach you all thinges and he shall put you in minde of all those thinges that I shall speake vnto you The pleasaunt pastime that you make with the course that we take in the searche and studie of the Scriptures I passe ouer for I knowe that he onely to whome we pray dooth know how faithfully we pray and whether with teares or without To him we shall stande or fall Iudge not you an other mans Seruaunt But you say we must néedes be all deceyued so long as we dwell in dissention and are not in errours only but also one of vs contrarie to an other And who now must be Iudge to trie the Spirites whether they be of God or no Onely the Church say you or else they shall not be tryed at all c. For the first Saint Paule hath tolde you that of necessitie sectes must be amongst men and euen amongst such as be of the Church of Christe And that because such as be allowed or tryed can not otherwise be knowen And as touching the other poynt Saint Austine sayth thus Contra insidiosos errores Deus voluit ponere firmamentum in scripturis contra quas nullus audet loqui qui quoquo modo se vult videri Christianum
that descended into hellâ— and not his body and spirite bothe This being grauÌ„ted as I think you wyll not deny to doo we shall easily prooue euen by plaine wordes of the Scripture that Christe descended into hell Saint Peter in the thirde Chapter of his first Epistle sayth thus Quia et Christus semel pro peccatis mortuus est iustus pro iniustis vt nos offeret Deo mortificatus quidem carne viuificatus autem spiritu In quo his qui in carcere erant spiritibus veniens praedicauit c. For euen Christe sayth Saint Peter dyd once dye for sinnes the iuste for the vniuste that he might offer vs vnto God mortified in the fleshe indéede but quickened in the spirite in which spirite comming to those spirites that were in prison he dyd preach vnto them Nowe I thinke you wyll say that I haue prooued by plaine words of Scripture that Christe descended into hell But howe great a matter were it If this might not be prooued by any playne Scripture séeing the Nicene Créede vsed in your Masse maketh no mencion of it And Damasus that was Bishop of Rome 360. yéeres alter Christes ascencion when Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour hath in his Créede no worde of it And yet he concludeth his Creede with these wordes Haec lege haec crede haec retine huic fidei animam tuam subiuga vitam consequeris premium a Christo That is Reade these wordes beléeue them holde them faste yoake thy soule to this Faith and thou shalt obtayne of Christe bothe life and reward I note this because I sée that you shoote at this marke To binde vs eyther to prooue all your vnwritten verities by Scripture or else for lacke of such proofe to beleeue as true whatsoeuer your Catholique Church shall allowe for trueth although the same be neuer so vnnecessarie to be prooued or receyued for trueth Your sixt vnwritten veritie is the custome of Baptizinge Infauntes For this I néede not to wryte much Our Sauiour Christe hath sayde Suffer little Chyldren to come to me and forbidde them not For to such dooth the kingdome of God belong And Saint Paule sayth That the Children of beléeuing Parents are holy Therefore they are not to be holden from Baptisme more then the Iewes children from Circumcision Your other thrée whyes are scarce worthy the aunswering Why should we kéepe the Sunday now at all and not the Saturday Why should we not abstaine now styll like Iewes from strangled meates as the Apostles decreed And why may not any Heretike deny all the thrée Créedes c. The first of these whyes shall be aunswered with an other why As why may not the Church of Christians being Lordes of the Sabaoth chuse for their Sabaoth one daye in seuen euen that daye the obseruing whereof they shall sée to serue best for theyr owne edification And why did the Apostles as it maye be gathered by that which Saint Iohn hath written in his Reuelation chuse the first daye of the wéeke to be theyr Sabaoth and not the laste And why doo you not remember that Saint Paule dooth number the Sabaoth amongst such indifferent things as are Meates and Drinckes Festiuall dayes and new Moones which were but shadowes of thinges to come c. And to your second why I say that the Apostles saw that it was necessarie for the tyme to forbydde those Christians that then lately had bene Heathen men to séede vpoÌ„ strangled or blood And néeded not to abrogate it afterwarde when they were further instructed and knew how to vse the ChristiaÌ„ lybertie without offence A man might meruayle why any wise man would mooue such a why as this Your thirde last why may be fully aunswered with these wordes Because there is no thing in those thrée Créedes that may not easily be prooued by the Scriptures And thus are all your whyes aunswered But doo you not marke howe these bedlem Catholiques would shake the foundation of our Christian fayth by bynding vs to beléeue that Christes Catholique Church hath set foorth as infallibly true and to be beléeued vnder paine of dampnation three Créedes the Articles whereof they are not able to prooue by the Scriptures doo not these blinde guides thinke you leade vs a trym daunce towardes shameles error and ignorauuce And thus much to your fowrth Reason which for good cause I haue called Fantasticall Bothe for that it séemeth that you perswade your â—elwfe that you handle your selfe verie finely in all that you write therein and also for that you haue vttered nothing therein that may not well séeme to spring out of a fantasticall head The fift Reason YOur fift Reason I haue called Fradulent because you doo therein compare the lawes and Scriptures of God to the lawes of men made for ciuill pollicie and gouernment And the Iudges gouernors in ciuill pollicie to the Ecclesiastical ministers gouernours of the Church of Christ in matters of faith This is fraudulently to bring y â— holy Scriptures which of right are the toutchstone for all mennes iudgements to be tryed by to be vnder the iudgement of some one man as your Pope who challengeth authoritie aboue the generall Councels or of that number of men that shalbe gathered together in a generall CouÌ„cell which doo challenge authoritie aboue the Pope But God that is Author of all perfection and dooth dispose euery thing in a swéet and decent order hath prouided much better for his Catholique Church héere millitaunt on earth then that it should be driuen to séeke for resolution of doubts at the bandes of such Iudges as may erre as your Pope and generall Councels haue and may doo The Father of lyghts the giuer of all good gyftes in whome there is no chaunge or shewe of variablenesse The Spirite of trueth that can neyther deceyue nor be deceyued is ready at hand with euery one that in humilitie of minde craueth wisedome and wyll not suffer any such loÌ„g to be in doubt of any thing the knowledge whereof is necessarie to saluation If you sayth our sauiour which be naught doo know how to giue good gifts to your children How much more shall your heauenly Father giue the holy spirit to them that aske it of him Gods chyldren may be bolde in such cases as I haue spoken of to craue Gods spirite and assure themselues to receyue it at his handes But the proude and hauty minded shalbe as sure to finde God theyr enimie This Iudge is alwayes ready in the scriptures to open the vnderstaÌ„dings of as many as doo resort thether with humilitie of minde séeking there to be resolued of theyr necessarie doubts That both your Popes generall CouÌ„cels haue erred therfore may erre I wil by Gods help plainly proue First if it were possible to perswade you that to make a decrée directly contrarie to the expresse commaundement of God is an error then it should be an
easie matter to cause you to confesse that bothe a Pope and a generall Councell haue erred For the sixt generall Councell holden at Constantinople where .289 Bishops were gathered together it was amongst other thinges decréede that holy Images should be had in Churches and that the same should be with great reuerence worshipped And this Councell was holden when the first Agatho was Pope and this decrée was allowed by him And afterward by Adrian the first Pope of that name So that one generall Councell and two Popes haue erred in one decrée made against and directly contrary to Gods commaundement Thou shall not make to thy sâ—lâ—e any grauen Image c. Iohn ths 12. of that name behaued him selfe so well in his nine yéeres gouernment that one Historian calleth him Sceleratum virum A man giuen ouer to all wickednesse And an other calleth him Monstrum hominis A Monster amongst men And at the last he was slaine being taken in adulterie But peraduenture you wyll say these faults procéede of humane infirmitie But what wyll you then say to Syluester the seconde that gaue him selfe to the Diuell that he might obtaine y e Popedome which he obtayned in déede and dyd enioy it fowre yéeres Benedictus the ninthe lyued so wickedly governing the Church fiftéene yéeres that one Historian sayth he was Vir plane probrosus infamis that is A man altogether worthy of reproches or euyll reportes and infamous And an other sayth that after his death hée was séene in an horrible shape and that be sayde thus Iusto Dei iudicio damnatus sum quia fine Lege vixi I am dampned euen by the iuste iudgement of GOD because I lyued without lawe If all this wyll not suffise you consider I pray you the Councell of Basill holden in the yere .1431 And Pope Eugenius that in those dayes ruled the Church .16 yéeres This Engenius dyd once allowe the decrées of that CouÌ„cell And afterward he did disallow the same Whereby it is manifest that he erred either in the first or in the last And if the Popes authorite be aboue the Councell then that Councell dyd erre in deposing that Pope And if the Councell be aboue the Pope then did that Pope erre in excomunicating that Councell If you wyll take paines in reading the Histories you shall finde amongst the Popes the Saduces errour the Arrians errour the Pellagians errour mainteyned Yea you shall finde and we doo sée manifestly that at this day your whole Church dooth mainteyne the heresie of the Anthropomorphits For you haue in all your Churches the Image of God the Father resembling an olde man with gray haires as though tyme had now made him olde as it dooth all creatures But when your Church had thrée Popes at one time Iohn the .23 Gregorie the .12 and Benedict the .13 To which of these would you haue sent vs for resolution of our doubtes Yea and when your Church was two yéeres together without eyther Pope or generall CouÌ„cell whether would you haue wished vs to leaue the Iudgement in matters of Church coÌ„trouersies at that tyme I hope you wyll no longer wishe vs to leaue the Scripture that neuer did nor shall fayle vs and depend vpon such Iudges as these that haue so often failed and as yet were neuer full agréed As for your comparison that you make betwixt the Churches and worldly kingdomes it is not woorth a Walnut And your similitude of a wyse Burgesse in Parliament we weigh not We knowe and confesse that mens lawes are not neither can be made so plaine or perfect but that it is necessary that there be Iudges that may haue authoritie to discide those coÌ„trouersies y t may arise by occasioÌ„ of sinister construing of y e meaning of the words of the lawe or by occasion of the darknesse of the same But where finde you any such darknesse or imperfection in the Scriptures of God Dooth not Dauid say Lucerna pedibus meis verbum tuum lumeÌ„ semitis meis Thy worde sayth Dauid is a Lanterne to my féete and a lyght to my pathes Take héede that you be not one of them that Esay speaketh of That doe call lyght darknesse and darknesse lyght c. I doo graunt that there may some question arise amongst men about the vnderstaÌ„ding of some places of Scripture but this ryseth not of the darknesse that is in the scriptures but of that darknesse that is in mans vnderstanding Which till it be opened by the mercifull goodnesse of God cannot perceyue those thinges that doo belong to the spirite of God And we doo thinke it necessarie that there be good and learned men chosen put in authoritie in the Church such as may when néede is call together y e most graue wyse and godlie learned persons in the feare of God to delyberate for the good gouernment of the Church and to take order that all thinges in the Church may be done to the edification of the same according to the rule of S. Paule And if any proude or froward person or any simple or ignoraunt person doo mooue any question or his or theyr misdemeanour doo cause any questioÌ„ to be mooued or any doubt to aryse about the true meaning of any part of the Scripture We thinke it méete that in these cases those places of Scripture be reuerendly weighed by those wyse learned graue godlie men so called together in the feare of God And that the persons so in doubt be by them certified of the true meaning of those places And that if they will not yéeld to that interpretation that shall be made by those men and prooued by due circumstances conference of those places with other to be the verie meaning of the holie Ghost in those places then we holde those men for Heretiques and doo iudge them worthy to be excommunicated Thus if you wyll you may sée that we are some thing wiser then your Burgesse in Parliament and not so worthy to be laughed to scorne as he Although we doo not make these men Iudges of the scripture but we doo put them in trust to search the Scriptures that both they and we may submit our selues to that iudgement which they by theyr reuerende searching shall finde in the Scriptures As for the fortie places of Scripture that the Arrians brought for the defence of theyr horrible Heresie we are able enough by the help of God to set foorth plainly in theyr true meaning and to withstand the Arrians without the helpe of our Catholique Church Notwithstanding the fortie places of Scripture that they bring more then we can bring for the trueth And we say as S. Austine sayth that the Scriptures to mysse vnderstanded and mysse applied are the Heretiques bowe to shoote out theyr owne venemous arrowes And as Vincentius sayth They are the shéepes cloathing which the Woolfe dooth shrowde her selfe in in c. Yea and we confesse that the