then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or M. Philip Melangthon or certeinly M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfully intreated vpon those matters Tell vs Frier what should hinder why euery one of these you haue nominated may not as faithfully intreate of thâ—se things as those who haue liued before them in ages past what wanted they which the other had what skill of art what knowledge of the toÌ„gues what other helpes there is not any one of these but hath far surpassed in learning and all deserued commendation the whole society of Iesuits But why doe I compare these burning lights bright starres of piety and religion with the base scumme of your Doctors and this now is another of your reasons why you were so desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersity Schooles If you be Campian sodesirous as you would make the world beleeue I maruell why you are so long a comming for our schooles were euer open for you but you could neuer find the way into them If you hereafter come you shall find many in our schooles that will encounter with you in all kind of learning And heere you end your discourse of the right sense of the Scriptures EDMVND CAMPIAN The third Reason which is the nature of the Church SO soone as the Aduersarie heard the Church named hee waxed wanne yet notwithstanding hee hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well that thereby you may perceiue the ruine and hard shifts of falsehood The enemie perceiued that both in the a Apoc. 2. Psal 7. Isay q. 32. Cant. 6. old and new b Mat. 13. Ephes 5. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. 3. Ioan. 15. Matth. 16. Matth. 18. Testament there is euery where * The scripture maketh honorable mention of the Church therefore the Romane Church is that true Church of Christ of which the Scripture speaketh so â—â—ten honorable mention made of the Church and that it is called a holy citie a fruitfull vineyard an high hill a direct path the only doue the kingdome of heauen the spouse and bodie of Christ the pillar of truth the multitude vnto which the holy Ghost being promised powreth all things needfull to saluatioÌ„ The congregation against all which the gates of hell shall neuer so preuaile that they shall vtterlie extinguish the same The congregation which who so repugneth though he confesse Christ with his mouth yet hath he no more to doe with Christ then hath a Publican and heathen man He durst not say any thing against this openly neither would hee seeme to gain-say that Church whereof the Scriptures so often make mention He kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it self by describing it he * This is false for your definition maketh a true Church took quite away For he hath portraied the Church with such properties as doe altogether hide it and make it as if it were Plato his Idea c Caluin Jnst. lib. 4. cup. 1. Num. 2.3 Apoc. 1.2 3. vnapt to be seene with the senses but subiect to the priuy insight and speculation of a very few men such onely as by speciall inspiration might in their imagination comprehend this arrie bodie and could likewise with a sharpe eye discerne such as are members of this chosen societie what is become of truth where is plaine dealing what Scriptures what iust iudgmentes what Fathers describe the Church in this sorte * Particular Churches are visible therefore the Catholik Church is visible There are Epistles in the Apocalyppes of S. Iohn written by d Act. 8.10.11 seq Christ himselfe to the seauen Churches which were in Asia There are also diuerse Epistles written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundry Churches In the Actes of the Apostles we finde mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged what were those were they knowne to God onelie and to his Saintes or also to all sortes of Christians But truly necessitie is a deadly dart pardon them for they that all these * This is false our doctrine hath been deriued from Christ himselfe vnto vs by the faithfull of all ages 1500 yeeres cannot spie out so much as one time one village one house embrued with their doctrine vntill that vnhappie e Lutherus Moncke by his incestuous marriage had destoured a Nunne dedicated to God by former solemne vowe or vntill that quarrelling Swizer f Zuinglius had conspired against his countrie or vntill that infamous runagate g Caluinus had vndertaken an vsurped authoritie in Geneua If they will haue any Church at all they must needes fetch the same out of blind corners and challenge those for their ancestors whom they neither knew themselues neither any mortall man hath seene except they brage of such forefathers who were manifest heretiques as Aerius Iouinianus Henri Pantal in Chrenogra Heluidius Vigillantius the Image breakers Berengarius Waldensis Lothardus Wyclife Husse of all which they haue begged some peices of their diuelish doctrine Maruaile not though I haue not feared these smoders which if I shall once come to the cleare light I shall easily expell For this is our speech together Tell me dost thou beleeue as the Church doth which flourished these many hundred yeeres past Yea verilie let vs therefore discourse of our countries and times what Church dost thou beleeue The congregation of the faithfull whosenames are vnknowne but it is apparant that many such haue been Is it apparant that manie such haue been To whom it is apparant To God who saith so we that haue receiued our doctrine from God himselfe This is a loude lie how may I beleeue it If thou were feruent in faith thou should know this as assuredlie as thou dost that thou art aliue Can you refraine laughing when you heare such foolish answers All Christian people are commannded to cleaue fast vnto the Church they are warned to take heed lest they be slaine with the spirituall sword they are bid keepe peace in the house of God to commit their soules in trust vnto this pillar of truth there to make all their complaints to take for heathen all such as are cast out of this Church and yet all that haue so many men so manie hundred yeeres been ignorant where that Church is or who belong vnto it will they in darkenesse still stand vpon that point that where or in what place soeuer the Church is there are contained therein onely saints and such as are predestinate to goe to heauen whereby it falleth out that if any man will refuse to obey his prelate he may thinke himselfe to be blamelesse in so doing if hee perswade himselfe that his said prelate hath committed any great offence by that meanes is excommunicated out of the Church When I perceiued that my aduersaries inuented such deuises and that they would not associate themselues to any Church that heretofore hath been
but as if you had said It is no heynous thing to conceiue and bring forth an Infant Therfore it is none to deuoure it after it is borne heynous act It is therefore a figuratiue speech commanding vs to communicate in the Passion of the Lord. Doe you thinke this reuerend old man dotes or hath he not giuen a iudicious interpretation wel agreeing vnto the iudgement of the auncient I thinke matters yet goe worse on your side then they did before but perhaps you will say these are too auncieÌ„t to serue your turne heare then some of latter times Theod. Theodoret a Gretian and a learned man writeth thus in his Dialogueâ— x DVR Theodorets meaning is that the signes haue not lost their naturall properties though their nature be changed WHIT. pag. 214. If the naturall properties remaine then certeinly their natures must for esseâ—tâ—all properties can neuer be separated from â—heir natures yea in the words follow ng in this very place Theodoret affirmeth that the nature remaineth The mysticall bread saith he remaineth in the nature it first had in the figure and in the forme Mysticall signes doe not lose their proper nature This very speech quite ouerthroweth your Transubstantiation for if their proper nature remaine without doubt nothing can be Transubstantiated or changed Now the bread keepeth his proper and old nature therefore there can be no Transubstantiation but I will ioyne to Theodoret Marcarius whose homilies Morelius had out of the Kings Librarie and hath published them in Greeke and I suppose that you being a Frier will not reiect the testimony of so auncient a Monke he writeth thus In the Church saith he Marcar homil is offered bread and wine y DVR An antitype or resemblance of the type is not the type or figure but the substance signified by that type or figure WHIT. pag. 217. An antitype is neuer properly the substance of the type though sometime it be another type answering to it and both of them are but similitudes figures of the substance And sometimes a type and an antitype are both one and the same as Heb. 9.24 The Tabernacle is called an antitype of heaueÌ„ being the substance signified by the Tabernacle and no answering type to the Tabernacle And in this sense doe diuers of the Fathers vse the word Antitype as Basil Nazianzen Theodoret Chrysost antitypes or resemblances of his body and blood What saith he bread and wine but bread is already turned into flesh and wine into blood Ought a Monke to speake after this manner giue you them so slender a name as similitudes Pardon mee Campian this Monke was neuer vsed to speake after your manner neither was your Transubstantiation as yet come abroad what say you now are you pleased with this reuerend hoare head of the Fathers If you rest not heere it shall be free for you to appeale to any one of the whole reuerend company of the holy Fathers not one of them no not any one of them do I except against For I make no doubt but if they may be iudges you shall euer haue the worst From henceforth therefore do not cast any such calumniâ—â—ions vpon vs and boast your selfe of the bare names of the Fathers for the Fathers both in this controuersie and in many others are firme on our side As for the Fathers of whom you name many but I beleeue haue read but a few I thus answere you We are not the seruants of the Fathers but the sonnes When they prescribe vs any thing out of the Law and diuine authoritie we obey them as our parents If they inioyne any thing against the voyce of the heauenly truth we haue learned not to harken to them but to God You as Vassals and base seruants receiue whatsoeuer the Fathers saie without iudgement or reason being affraid as I think either of the whippe or the halter if euery thing they speake be not Gospell with you In few words say you this is their drift vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guilty there is no iudgement to be had Verily this fits you a great deale better then vs for you will receiue no iudgement but the iudgement of the Pope and Church of Rome which Church and Pope wee haue proued long agoe to be guilty of most heynous crimes and there hath been a perpetuall variance betwixt him and vs. Is there any equity then in your demaunds that we should stand to his iudgement who 〈◊〉 both a person guilty and an aduersarie to vs And well should we deserue to lose the cause if we would be so witlesse contenders Much truer speaketh Augustine Let one matter encounter with another Contra Maxim lib. 3. c. 14. one cause with another one reason with another by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures which are not proper to either side but common z DVR How foolishly do you alledge Augustine who maketh the Scripture a witnes of the truth not a iudge as you would haue it WHIT. pag. 243. If the Scripture be the witnes where shall we find a iudge answerable to this witnes Is it the Church Then must it be of more authority then the Scripture which heere you affirme not neither may it be graÌ„ted for the Scripture is the word of God therefore he that is the iudge of it must be the iudge of God himselfe To deny the Scriptures then the preheminence in iudging is to thrust God out of his throne Therefore as God so the Scripture the word of God hath the authoritie both of a witnesse and a iudge DVR Augustine euer thought that the Popes iudgement was the highest tribunall â—pon earth where all controuersies must be decided WHIT. pag. 244. Augustine neuer thought so but writ the contrary De ciuitat Dei lib. 15. â—ap 3. The Lord saith he hath penned the Scripture which is callâ—d Canonicall because it is of highest authoritie yea hee neuer once pressed the Arrians either with the authoritie of the Pope or of the Councell which vndoubtedly he would haue done neither could he haue done better if the highest iudgement had been in the Church witnesses for both And to their iudgements would we haue you to stand not ours As for other things you speake of I passe them ouer for you will reserue them for vs till another place and wheras you say you haue cited many and worthy places of Scripture we haue weighed those places in their ballances and haue found them to light to proue what you proposed And it is your vse indeed rather to take them by number then by weight But you charged vs with scorning at this and shifting them off we did nothing lesse all we did was to free them from your cauils We haue say you alledged the interpretations of the Greeke and Latin Churches I confesse it but we haue wrung all those weapons from you and haue by them battered all your holds But say you what say they
true faith lay hold on the Gospell These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men seeing they are men as others bee yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue which maketh them members of the Church is visible we affirme that this Church consisting of holy and faithfull men is altogether inuisible Christ is the head of this Church to this only the elect caâ— ioyne themselues wee then acknowledge another Church besides that which coÌ„teineth only Saints for so should there be no visible Church at all but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets we professe that to be the true Church of Christ though many wicked men be found in it Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things as you say of vs but are ready to proue theÌ„ both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity Comfort then your selfe Campian as much as you can with the wits of our Vniuersity men and promise to your selfe great things from vs but see you bring more dexterity of wit or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men I perswade my selfe they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts but do as much by you too for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites EDMVND CAMPIAN The fourth Reason which is generall Councels AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people was by a Councell gathered together of the Apostles and some elders decided Children then beleeued their Parents and sheepe their Sheepheards charging them in this sort a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost and vs after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers for the rooting out of heresie which budded vp aboundantly in euery age which were of such authoritie aboue b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe that * Gregorie made the foure Councels equall to the Euangelists great honour was attributed vnto them as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels I will seeke no further euen here in our owne Countrey by an c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force and pure authoritie which said acte I will heere alleadge And call thee thy selfe O England my most louing Countrey to witnesse If thou reuerence as thou pretendest those Councels Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act 4. 16. Constan c. 5. Eph. conc in epist. ad Nestorium Nic. con 14 Chal. act 11 Nic. conc apud Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is to Saint Peter Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation and open incest Then wilt thou build vp many things which now thou pullest downe and wish many things vndone which now thou doest Moreouer I promise and vndertake as occasion and time shall serue to proue that the * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell Councels holden at other times and namely the Councell of Trent haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall securely and couragiously to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe seeing I am * This is false ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside and also most substantially prooued which he dare not contemptuously reiect He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time with multiplying of many words but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for you will take so good heed vnto him that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes If there shall be any at all so mad as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome and those such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie are too great to be challenged I would willingly behold that brazen face the which when I shall shâ—w you I will leaue the rest to your imaginations In the meane while I will giue you this caueat that whosoeuer affirmeth that a generall Councell * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell nor lawfully held And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged Sleidan anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men duly and orderly kept and finished is of no force or authoritie the same man seemeth to me to be one of no iudgement nor of any wit and not onely an asse in diuinitie but also voide of discretion in worldly policie If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost when the religion perfection knowledge wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome are assembled together into one Citie and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane whereby the truth may be searched out Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost promised e Joh. 14. by God vnto them that by his assistance they may establish godly lawes for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out let him looke vp stately let him scorne and mocke let him lay all shame aside let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges what game what pastime shall he make we haue spied out such a one euen Martin f Lib. de capt Bab. Luther who saith that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ye may well imagine his owne and Philip Melancthons if they come together in Christs name then he did of all generall Councels O worthy companie We haue found out also another of the same crue to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini Kemnitius who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine what hath he gained an euill name so that he except he preuent it by recanting shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius whereas the Councell of Trent the elder it waxeth by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent O good Lord with what diuersitie of people out of all countries with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales with what
and authoritie with him and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome Therefore he must needes deest your Pope who preferreth himselfe both in dignity authority before all other Bishops from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales i DVR Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop And in his discourse 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed And so not things done in Afrike at Rome 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke for which he must giue an account Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole nor the administration of all causes finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questioÌ„ Lactan. 2. cap. 19. k DVR Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians but of the Idols of the Heathen vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth besides the Ieves had their Cherubins WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols but Images such as your Church is full of and so can there be no religion in it Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs but made of the earth as theirs who pretended for themselues as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do that they vvorshipped not the Images but the God expressed by them Further for the Cherubins they were placed in the most holy place into vvhich the people might not enter not yet looke in and shevv vs particular precepts for yours as they had for theirs and vve haue done But he that commanded theirs forbiddeth euery vvhere all others There can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion Athanasius affirmeth Athanas conts a Gentas That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of your l DVR VVill not all your Vniuersity men account you a cosener vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius say asmuch as I affirme The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues vvhy do you reptoach me but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers he doth but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures but as Commentaries vpon them For saith he by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture These vvords make not for you neither against vs therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite traditions Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women Epipham lib. 3. Haeres 79. who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship and condemneth all that superstition m DVR Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints but reproueth â—omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary aâ— to a Gâ—â—ldâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only his vvords are plaine â—et none of the Saints be adored The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none saith he worship the Virgine Mary What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women but also men and all mortall wights n DVR No Câ—tâ—oâ—ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints I pray you what may be the meaning of this you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women what Scriputre â—peaketh any thing of this matter Then answere your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary or for her whether soeuer Epiphanius saith It is foolish strange and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints And no man is found either so greatly couetous or so little superstâ—tious but he voweth somewhat to some Saint specially to the Virgin Mary offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary Basil in Epist ad Cleric Neocaesariae Basil is the author that in his dayes there was a o DVR Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil reade the place and you shall find these words there The câ—â—ome we now keepe is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt Afrike Thebes Palestine and all who vse singing of Psalmes custome in all Churches that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies But in your Churches the people can p DVR As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈◊〉 what a foolish dreame is this WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle then watch with you for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6 He that speaketh a strange tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God vers 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profit you Strange tongues then profit not vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes q DVR Gregorie neuer thought so but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words Hierome the Philosopher saith he proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for and more profitable to the end he might make choice of it And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only but for all others who beare the same nature with him he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life Doth he not now preferre this life and from the praise he giueth the other he hath somewhat detracted when he sheweth that it is only for themselues and so lesse
Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustinâ— affirmâ—th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaesâ— 85 quaeâ—t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speakâ—th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself oâ—ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apochâ—ypha bookes which he wâ—uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill â—lmoâ—t 70â— yeâ—res afâ—er Christ Hierome Hieron iâ— Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accouÌ„ted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fiâ—st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see hoâ— you bewray your owne miserable â—esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apocâ—ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Woâ—d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine theiâ— sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5â— â—â—e do not affâ—me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of â—rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes oâ— the old and new Testamâ—nt See Decâ—et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and infâ—inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit
light and euidence of the storie hath wrung this from you But tel vs who made question of them Did heretikes onely Then account Eusebius Hierome amongst heretikes who haue reported to vs their owne iudgement of these Epistles with the iudgement of the Church Can you prooue that they were accounted heretikes in the first and pure ages of the Church who tooke out of the Canon these Epistles For the Epistle of Saint Iames I haue answered sufficiently we neither reiect that nor any of the other Epistles which you falsely accuse the Lutherans to haue cut out this is no fauit of ours whom you knowe to be farre from Lutheranisme quarrell then with them as for vs we neuer cunningly shifted off the testimonies and allegations of those Epistles Can you in equitie require any more of vs At length then forbeare to vpbraide vs with I knowe not what desperation frowardnes and presumption wee willingly admit receiue and allow of your owne bookes which your selfe make vse of in disputation to their iudgment will we stand if you can conuince vs by these you winne the field That which you adde of the booke of Ester and of almost three whole chapters of Daniel is nothing but cauilling The booke of Ester we account Canonicall as much as by Gods authoritie is written in b DVR As if the Hebrevv tongue were the rule of the Canon and of diuine authority WHIT. pag. 90. No booke is a part of the new Testament which is vvritten in Latin yet is not Greeke the rule of the Canon Hebrew but those fragments which commonly are annexed to that holy history of Ester we cannot so highly account of as for those three chapters they are none of Daniels of which read if you please c DVR Hicrome to Ruffinus seemeth to approue those three chapters of Daniel WHIT. pag. 92. Erasmus noted that Hierome delt craftely hauing in his preface shevved he thought othervvise Hieromes preface vpon Daniel And there you shall find that not the Anabaptists only but the auncient Iewes haue reiected and derided them But Campian why doe you trifle thus were you wont to build much vpon the authority of those bookes did you in these lay the foundations of your faith why then do you seeke to make vs odious by these bookes which if they were neuer so Canonical would further your cause neuer a whit the more Now you much commend Augustines modestie VVho August de doctrin Christ. lib. 2. cap. 8. say you hath made a Catalogue of the bookes of holy Scripture farre better then either the Iewes or Sectaries I could wish you Iesuits had a little more modestie that ye might be more like Augustine for all men speake and cry out of your male pertnes and insolency But Augustine counted those bookes Canouicall which we do not true I deny it not but what of that is not Augustine opposite to Hierome for Hierome expressely denies those bookes to be nuÌ„bred in the Canon And Augustine setting downe the whole Canon of the Scripture doth annex these to it It seemeth there is a great difference in their iudgements for those which Hierome denies Augustine affirmeth to be Canonicall both famous men and such as haue deserued well of the Church of God how then may we satisfie Augustine whom Campian obiecteth vnto vs No otherwise then as the truth is The termes of Apochrypha and Canonicall Hierome vseth in one sense and Augustine in another Hierome accounted all these bookes Apochrypha which were not written in Hebrew Augustine though in deed and in truth he differed not yet he gaue this name especially to those bookes which were not fraught with fables and lies such as those times afforded very many For so he writeth lib. 15. cap. 23. de ciuit Dei Though there be some truth found in the Apochrypha bookes yet they haue no Canonicall authoritie there being so many lies in them Therefore he names in the Canon the booke of Iudith and Toby and Ecclesiasticus other of that sort because there was more truth and sinceritie in them then in those common and diuulged fables Therefore Augustine vseth the terme of Canonicall Scripture more largely then Hierome and of Apochrypha more strictly vnlesse happily we will suppose that of set purpose Augustine would differ from Hierome in a thing of that moment Besides the Romish Cardinal Caietan in fine comenta in histor veter Testameuti of whom we spake before writeth that certeine Councels with Augustine accounted these bookes Canonicall because they were rules for manners not for faith and doctrine And what reason Augustine had to plead for the booke of Wisdome De predest Sanct. c. 24. least it should be turned out of the Canon let him looke to it himselfe this very booke Hierom whom you Iesuits vsually preferre before Augustine hath by name excluded and from the selfe-same place where Augustine confirmeth the authority of this booke euery man may gather that it was not commonly receiued in the Canon for when Augustine cited a testimony out of that booke He was taken away Wisd 4.11 least wickednes should alter his vnderstanding many of the brethren who were present cried out It was not alledged out of a Canonicall booke d DVR But you reuiue not Augustines ansvvere and hovv he obiected against them the consent of all Bishops faithfâ—ll Laitie c. WHIT. pag. 97. Augustine doth not accuse them of impudency or sacriledge for denying it nor reprouâ—s them much only he saith it is better then other treatises vvhich I acknovvledge And the consents of the former he alledged to proue that a sentence of this booke is not lightly to be reiected seeing many Churches did reade it though all did not receiue it as himselfe saith de ciuit Dei lib. 27. cap. 20. Now it is like they neuer would haue reiected the argument and testimony of this speech if the authoritie of that booke had been Canonicall in the Church And yet I denie not but that Antiquitie might thinke more reuerently of this booke then of other of the bookes of Apochryphaes For I obserue in Eusebius that c DVR Melito affirmeth this booke to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 98. Be it so yet he reiectes all your other and what haue you got by it But by the name of Wisdome some thinke he meaneth the Prouerbs of Salomon Melita the Bishop of Sardis in a certeine Epistle written to Onesimus wherin he setteth downe exactly the number of the sacred bookes of the old Testament and accounteth this booke as one of the Canon yet he mentioneth not one of the others which we call Apochrypha neither Toby nor Iudith nor the Macchabees nor Ecclesiasticus nor yet any of the rest for which you striue so much yet he affirmeth that he tooke great paines to know exactly those auncient bookes and professeth that he fully attained his end Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. After saith he I had learned exactly what
Isay 19.21 Icrem 31.31 Ezeâ— 37.26 WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Hierusalem was not the Church of Christ what then happened vnto it which may not befall my others And for the Prophesies you recier they belong to the company of the elect and not to your popish Church to which the Lord neuer promised any such thing Christ verily will neuer endure that his Church should be abolished or perish but it is one thing for it to perish and another to lye hid for a time and not to bee seene he hath promised it shall euer be preserued not that it shall euer be visible and glorious DVR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall neuer be hid nor shut vp in a few nothing lesse for hee hath promised that wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in his name he will be in the middest of them Church of Hierusalem that though it had and by continued succession inioyed the name of the Church yet in very truth it was nothing else but a caue and denne of theeues I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it selfe why it may not be said long agot to haue lost the body of the Church though it keepe still the visard the name and the vestments of the Church What if the Romish Church condemned Luther shall we say therefore Luther is an heretike and that it is the Catholike Church The Church of Ierusalem condemned Christ and him and his they would haue denied to be the true Church if by any colour they could that they might free themselues out of those straights they were brought into But happily they will say there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church 2. Thess 2. But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasie that should be before Christs comming to iudgement i DVR The Fathers haue vnderstood the place of Antichrist or of a defection from the Romane Empire WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hierusalem a man you much esteeme Catech 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasie from the true faith so doth Chrysostome Oecumenius so many others Yea your Diuines of Rhemes haue so expounded it which Apostafie is from religion and the Church as the most auncienâ— Fathers do vnderstand it and Christ prophesied euidently of the small number of his Luke 18.8 When the Soune of man shall come shall he find k DVR Augustine de vultat Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith VVE vnderstand this speech either for the perfection of faith or for the multitude of the wicked or for the small number of the good So doth Hierome contr Luciferanoâ— WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistooke the place must we rest in their exposition we haue Nazianzene cont Arran Theophyla in 28. Luc. Caietan vpon this place against them nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked and the small number of the good doth he not defend our opinion that the number of the wicked shall be great but of the godly small faith on the earth If hardly any faith shal remaine on the earth and the Church cannot be said to be a Church but improperly without faith it followeth necessarily that when Christ commeth their number shall be very small who may truly be called the Church You haue now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vnto vs vnlesse you thinke your selfe better able to puttray it then the holy Ghost himselfe could do who hath set out the Church in farre better colours and manner then I find yours to be in which there is nothing left but painted walles But say you there are Epistles of Christ written to the seauen Churches which were in Asia there are also diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundrie Churches in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged What then Campian what think you may be inferred hereupon These were not knowne to God only but also to all Christians who euer denied that These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians Philippians Thessalonians Colossians to which Paul writ were particular visible Churches Did we euer seeme to make question whether a Church might be visible or no we verily call all those visible and apparant Churches which professe the pure word of God and hold those rights and Sacraments which are commaunded by Christ And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England Scotland Germanie Fraunce and other parts of Christendome though it greeue you Iesuits they should be so visible and apparant But what kind of reasoning is this l DVR All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church consisteth as on parts are visible therefore the Catholike Church it selfe is visible WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike are not visible because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only but of Churches of the times past and of those which shall be in the time to come But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only yet it followeth not that it must be visible nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible it cannot for when all the parts are growen into oâ—â— then is the whole visible but not each seuerall part so when the seuerall parts may be seene the whole caÌ„not be seen because the parts are noâ—â—ow become one So the coÌ„trary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible the whole cannot be seene Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible therefore the Catholike Church is euer visible Haue you learned such Logicke as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of Iesuits or doe you Campian thinke that these manner of Allegations should goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuersity men but where are those Churches now which were then so flourishing Shew me the Church of Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus Corinthes and the rest Now they are no where to be seene and are no loÌ„ger Churches And that which we haue seen already befal those Churches teach vs I pray you how it may not also betide the Church of Rome And though Rome become a heap yet the Church shall be safe neither shal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to abolish it And at this day there are many flourishing Churches which are equall to your falsly called Catholike Church for the number vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold But you say That for 1500. yeares we could not spie out one towne one village one house seasoned with our doctrine Nay Campian that is very false m DVR The Arrians Mâ—â—cedonians and all other auncient heretikes may by the same probability say as much
370. When did I euer grant Campian so much I should certeinly doe the Fathers great iniury if I should adiudge them for Campian who are so farre different from him And for your kindred with them it is but as the Iewes were Abrahams children for if you were the children of the Fathers you would hold the faith of the Fathers For the Scribes and Pharisies were not the children of Moses because they sate in Moses chaire Neither are they the children of the Saints who hold the places of the Saints as Hierome Neither haue they the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter as Ambrose neither ought faith to be tried by persons but persons by saith as Tertullian hath written We verily loue and duly reuerence the Fathers yet wee acknowledge but one Father in heauen and one teacher which is Christ And if you acknowledge them wholy your Fathers why doe you forsake many of their opinions therefore are these Fathers wholie on your side what is this else but dotage and to speake without witte or feare Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the diuell Ambrose whether any euer said it or no I neuer knew neither is it greatly materiall the best most righteous men may sometimes be so farre bewitched as they doe not in some things perceiue the truth and you doe too openly bewray your malice by labouring to raise an euill opinion of him and to make vs infamous for such speeches as may haue a good construction though at the first they seeme odious Certeinly I haue read many Papists and heard of some all passing shamelesse and malepere but more impudent then your selfe in all my life did I neuer know any There is no end of your lying you feare no mens censure there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speake Euen now you set vpon Beza with a fresh lye He you say hath written that Hierome is as surely damned as the diuell because he was iniurious to the Apostles a blasphemous a wicked and an vngodly man That Beza affirmeth not these things I protest and aâ—ow let any man that will see the place if it be otherwise let me be accounted very infamous For as for those first words that Hierome was damned aswell aâ— the diuell either they are by malicious cauelling fetched out of some other place as all the rest are or altogether forged as the most In the place alledged there is no such thing Concerning that he saith of Iniury and Blasphemy I will set downe Beza his owne words that all men may know your impudency Euen Hierome Beza in annot noui Testam in Act. Apost cap. 23. saith Beza if it be true that Erasmus vpon this place saith of him is not only iniurious to the Apostle in that hee findeth want of moderation in this speech wherin rather appeareth his Diuine courage but also is openly blasphemous in that euen in Christ himselfe he hath found some signe of imperfection Thus far Beza the matter of his complaint is about S. Paules sharpe answere vnto the high Priest in which Hierome as Erasmus testifieth in his Dialogues against Pelagius findeth some want of moderatioÌ„ not only so but euen in Christ himself he looketh for some imperfection of piety which reports of Hierome if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth why might not Beza iustly esteeme him in the one iniurious to the Apostle in the other so blasphemous against Christ For what can bee deuised more vnworthy the Apostle then that in his answere to the high Priest he should shew too much spleene or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ theÌ„ that the grace wherewith he was indued was imperfect But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldnes in wresting the Scriptures wherein he hath most iust cause of complaint for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures or they are so weake and easie of themselues as they may be any way turned And truly he must be very desperate that should defend Hieromes interpretations Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Caluin then of a thousand Augustines Luther is not moued though a thousand Austens Cyprians Churches be against him The answere is ready whosoeuer speaketh truth in that respect is more to be esteemed then a great multitude that could not discerne the truth They therfore that haue obserued the errors of the Fathers either those you haue named or the rest which heere also you recken vp Optatus Athanasius Hilarie Cyrill Epiphanius Basil Vincentius Fulgentius Lee and Gregory of Rome and haue admonished the Readers of them are so farre from malepertnes herein as that coÌ„trary they haue performed a work for the Church needfull profitable and acceptable to all good and godly men For as the true expositions of Scriptures are to bee expounded to the Churches so are the contrary to bee reiected Hierom. Paul August Hierome saith well it is the worst kind of teaching to depraue sentences of Scripture and to draw them perforce to serue our turnes Wherefore we professe with Augustine All writers and their sayings must bee i DVR That trial must not be made by Apostate Monks but by lawfull Pastors and doctors WHIT. pag. 372. And why not I pray you is it because they are Monkes I thinke not or because they haue departed froÌ„ you That is the matter as it none might touch reade examine the scriptures but those who haue plight their troth to you neuer to assent to the Scriptures though they directly coÌ„tradict popish doctrin we would willingly harkeÌ„ to lawfull Pastors examining interpreting the Scriptures such as you haue none Because with you examinatioÌ„s must not be made by the rule of the scriptures but after the wil of the Pope and all your Pastors haue tyed theÌ„selues to the iudgemeÌ„t of the Romish Antichrist that that which they see they wil not see if it displease the Pope by whose spirit they are guided iudged according to the holy Scriptures the authority wherof is more excellent then the whole nature of man is able to conceiue not that I disallow the opinions of the most worthy Fathers but I follow those that come nearest vnto the Scriptures and when the Scripture it selfe is manifest I embrace it before them all Whereas then we consider the sayings of the Fathers and examine them by the light of Scriptures we do here nothing vnwonted nothing boldly or arrogantly but you haue alwaies been fliers of the light of Scriptures as Tertullian speaketh Tertul. de Resurrect and therefore do so diligently prouide for lurking holes in the Fathers that you may alwaies haue some place of refuge For seeing Scriptures faile you what remaineth but that you seeke aide from any euen the meanest But you tell vs why we do so much anoid the Fathers I had rather you would tell vs why you doe so carefully auoide the Scriptures For say you they that cannot away with set times of Fasting must needs be
offended with Basil Naziancene Leo and Chrysostome which haue published excellent Sermons of Lent Christ ordeined no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospell k DVR Who hath but so much as saluted the Fathers and knoweth not this to be salfe for the obseruation of Lent is most auncient and ordained by the Apostles WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be most auncient but not instituted by the Apostles for Apollonius writeth that Montanus first made lawes for let and certaine fasts and Tertullian when hee was become a Montanist writeth as much in his booke wherein he defendeth the fasts of Montanus Againe the Apostles neuer put any religion in choise and change of meats Rom. 14.17 Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1 1â— and so ordeined not Lene Lastly the Churches of the Apostles differed much in this fast both in their times in their kinds of meat as Eusebius â—ocrates record which would neuer haue bin if it had bin Apostolical at least as Papists do affirme who take in for a truth that those Churches would faithfully persist in the Apostles decrees Lent was appointed long after and the manner of obseruing it in those times was not one the same in all Churches We both allow and vse publike and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occasions as for your appointed and yearely solemne fasts we do with good reason reiect them because they are full of superstition and iniurious vnto Christian liberty Our iudgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught August Epist 86. I find it not set downe in any Commandement of the Lord or his Apostles what daies we ought to fast what not Augustine then knew not these your set yearely ceremonies of fasting not your Lenten fast which hath a certeine time and number of daies prescribed Further you say they that haue set their soules to sale for gold lust excesse and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil Chrysostome Hierome and Augustine whose bookes of the profession of Monkes are in euery mans hands what will you censure all to be couetous lustfull gluttonous or ambitious that are not Monkes backe with that foot you were best for feare of your head for neither the Pope nor his Cardinals and Bishops hold it either necessary or conuenient for them to lay aside their abundant wealth continuall pleasures their dainty fare their kingly honor and thrust themselues into a Monasterie whosoeuer liueth after their fashion cannot be well affected to Basil nor any man that is holy l DVR VVhen you are ouercome by the truth you slander our liues and speake euill of our persons WHIT. pag. 377. I do not slander you nor detract from you the world hath vnderstood long agoe what manner of men you vvere If you be grovvne better I should be glad of it But I knovv men haue iudged othervvise of this order and such as did not hate your Monasticall life For the Romish Cardinals and Priors did vvrite thus to the Pope himself There is another abuse amongst the orders of religious men for many are so deformed and out of order that they are a great scandale to the people and hurt much by their example VVe thinke that all orders ought to be abolished For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excesse making themselues drudges vnto their ambitions banquets and delights And to conclude in the whole course of their liues so behauing themselues as becommeth better sensuall and voluptuous persons proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures then graue teachers out of Christs Schoole Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame vpon you and hath done continually and most deseruedly you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault your Prelates and Monkes whose goodly order and straite rule of seuere discipline you report differ as much from other men as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others who giuing themselues wholy ouer to pleasures while the most tooke great paines and alwaies did something whereby to liue thought their life the only true life Such is and hath bin your life that others must seeme not to liue if that be to liue which you haue esteemed But what need I answere you any more of fasting and Monkish orders which haue not one Monke in your whole Church any thing resembling those of auncient time neither do you obserue the old manner of fasting but you goe on and vpbraide vs with fouler matters They that haue brought a bondage vpon mans will which haue taken away Christian funerals which haue burned Saints reliques can they say you be well pleased with Augustine we Campion haue wronged no Saints we haue neither burned their reliques nor taken away their funerals m DVR Therefore you haue taken away the reliques of the Saints and the funerals of Christians as superstitions and iniurious to the maiestie of God WHIT. pag. 370. Are you so vvithout iudgement that you cannot distinguish betvvixt things and the superstitious vse of them It is not these not any comely buriall vve dislike but Popish pompcions funerals and impious vvorshipping of reliques only we could not suffer any prophane superstition iniurious to the Maiestie and glorie of God and for this we haue the direction of God himselfe being our patterne whom we follow and Augustine also herein consenteth with vs But we haue captiuated the will of man and then you say how can we be well affected vnto Augustine well inough why not for say you he writ three bookes of free will A most witles and ridiculous collection Augustine writ three bookes of freewill ergo Augustine affirmeth that men haue freewill If that reason be currant then this also Augustine writ a booke of two soules against the Manichees also a booke of lying another of the quantity of the soule ergo Augustine defendeth two soules in a man ergo he praised lying ergo he attributeth greatnes quantity to the soule I pray you what difference is there I graunt Augustine writ those bookes you mention but they ouerthrow not our opinion who affirme that the will of man is in bondage if euer you had perused those bookes you would neuer haue affirmed it nor once named the bookes in this matter Augustine writ these bookes against the Manichees wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill which is the point in controuersie but of the cause of sinne which proceeded from freewill and he entituled those bookes of freewill because in them he intendeth to shew that the originall and beginning of sinne is to be found in mans freewill not in God This you might easily haue learned out of his retractations for thus he writeth Retract lib. 1.1 q. The discourse was vndertaken for them that deny sin to haue his originall from the free action of our will affirming that from this
would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
new Sacraments new sacrifice and new doctrine of religion There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greeke neither abroad nor at home which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his bookes of so notable a matter though it had been neuer so slenderly Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough if the Historie which is a faithfull witnes of antiquity and the life of memory do in many and sundry places copiously entreate and spoake of that faith which we professe and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirme that that faith which the aduersaries do thrust vpon vs was 〈◊〉 allowed in the Catholike Church then are all the Historiographers on our part and the inuasions of the aduersaries are not friuolous and such as can make no man afraid except it bee first granted that all Christians throughout euery age haue fallen to grosse infidelity and consequently into the deepe pit of hell vntill that Frier Luther committed aduoutrie with the Nunne Katherine Bore WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the seauenth Reason which is the Historie NOw you call vs to Historie the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity and all that haue taken paines in publishing the Ecclesiasticall Historie their names you set downe and like dumbe showes you carry them in great pompe as though Campian the particular naming of all that haue published any Historie were sufficient for the remembrance and searching out the monuments of Antiquitie What insolent new kind of Logicke is this to recken vp the Historians of the whole world and of particular countries and then conclude they are your owne Haue you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge that whatsoeuer you lay your hands vpon shall by and by become yours we haue long since perused the auncient Chronicles wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set downe and we find not that they fauour you more then vs. If in them be some things against vs many moe and more waightie testimonies they haue against you and such as giue you a deadlie wound else would wee neuer haue collected the Histories of the auncient Church so accuratelie and diligentlie penning them exactlie and distinguishing the seuerall ages and times neither would wee haue published them in the world if they were so contrarie vnto vs as you surmise for who haue taken more paines to finde out or more faithfullie restored the Ecclesiasticall Histories then our men without whose labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlinesse We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie and seeing you appeale to auncient Histories wee condiscend yet with this caution that we be not tied to those things which were apparantly blemishes in the auncient Church Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done doe not so much teach vs what ought to bee done but haue an eye to that which was then performed and by that meanes set downe many things worthie of reprehension rather than imitation and for the most part it happens that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ and euer the later writer the more corrupt But here you exclaime that wee seeke euasions and very peruersly you slaunder vs that because wee doe not allowe all wee refuse all They that reforme what is amisse doe not blame the rest that is not faultie Striue while you list Campian and crie out of mazes and labyrinths at length will you nill you by the cares must wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures And herein Campian you very much a DVR And vvhy may not Campian trumph for what impudencie is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies and yet you cannot tell vvhen one of them euer began in vvhat Popes time by vvhat meanes hovv it increased in the Church WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons not raylings But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt because wee cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt but being so manifest as it is what need we search the Histories to shew the beginning what I pray if you see a man sicke of the pestilence a citie corrupt with riote and wickednesse a house ruinous and readie to fall a shippe sincking will you deny all these vnlesse one can tell you the time when he began to be sicke the meanes how the city grew corrupt who vvas ovvnet and in vvhat yeare the house grevv ruinous and in vvhat daâ—e the shippe began first to leake And vvhat is the force of your reason and demaund other then this But doe not your owne Histories tell vvhen and by vvhom innouations and corruptions entred see a fevv of them Hee that first vsurped authoritie ouer other Churches vvas Pope Victor after him Zozimus Boniface Celestiue and theâ— successura Pope Syricius first foâ—bad Priests marriages The Manichies first denied the Cup to the people The Nicene Councell first ordained vvorshipping of Images Pope Nicolas the second first taught the bodie of Christ must carnally be handled broken and eaten Pope Jnnocent the third first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation Boniface the third that the Pope vvas the head of all Churches Gregorie the great taught Purgatorie first for a certeine truth The Florentine Councell that the Pope was aboue Councels Jnnocent the third brought in auricular confession If these vvere not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more triumph when you demaund at what time vnder what Bishop by what way and proceeding was a new religion spread ouer the Citie of Rome and the whole world and doe not doubt but that if any change and declining had been many writers would haue made mention of it or diuers or one at the least It is hard for vs to answere at what time neither is it necessarie to set downe the very instant of time All things were not at once ouerturned in the Church of Rome sinne and wickednes came to his height by degrees and by leisure to ripenes the haires of our head are not all gray of a suddaine neither doth any thing suddainely come to his maturitie and the growth of euery thing appeareth long after This is manifest in such things as hauing small beginning goe on forward vnto a greater quantitie vntill they come to perfection you cannot deny but there was a great alteration of Religion in the Church of b DVR It is not hard to knovv the heresies of the Ievves for Philastrius Epiphanius Iosephus haue vvritten of them WHIT pag. 484. It is as easie to know the heresies of Christians being more in the Christian Church then euer vvere in the Church of Ierusalem and of these also haue many bookes been vvritten Ierusalem what then was the change all at once shew vs then how those nouelties entred into the Church what time what way who
great a good that the Apostle Peter what time he would not haue had it done is termed Satan by him who was willing to be slaine And elsewhere God saith he hardened Pharao by iust iudgement De Grat. lib. arbit cap. 23. and Pharao hardened himselfe by his owne free will And that you may plainely perceiue there is nothing taught by vs touching the will of God but that which the Church of Christ long since hath taught I will annexe some other sentences which the same Augustine hath written in another place Great are saith he the works of the Lord distinguished into all his wils Enchirid. ad Laurent cap. 100. so as after a wonderfull and vnutterable manner that is not done without his will which also is not done against his will because it should not be done if he did not suffer it neither certainely doth he suffer it vnwilling but willing And againe God worketh in the hearts of men to incline their wils whither so euer hee will De Grat. lib. arbit ca. 21. whether to good according to his mercie or vnto euill according to their merits And that certainely in his iudgement sometime open sometime secret but alwaies iust I can vse infinite testimonies in this matter but I thinke not very needfull I will raise vp out of your owne schoole Hugo de Sancto victore who shall most clearely approue our opinion with his owne words For thus he writeth De Sacra part 2. c. 14. His will is neuer idle so as that is not done which he willeth neither in a word can any thing bee done at any time which hee willeth not And a little after Cap. 15. The will of God is euer fulfilled and wicked men are not therefore excused because the will of God is performed in them and by them for that they are not directed by their owne will to fulfill the will of God but by his secret prouidence Doe you perceiue at length Campian that no new paradoxe is defended in our Churches which was not both receiued in times past in the Churches of Christ and is also defended as the truth it selfe For that which you adde As the calling of Paul so also Dauids adulterie and Iudas his treacherie were the proper worke of God from whence you drew these positions I know not These works of God not one of our writers doe so compare together as that wee should say that God wrought alike in Dauid and Iudas to the committing of hainous offences as he did in Paul for his effectuall conuersion Indeed the Lord wrought both in this and in them but not after one and the like manner he did inspire inwardly the heart of Paul by his spirit and endued his minde with true faith which he lacked before but to Dauid and Iudas hee did cast in no new kinde of impietie or inclination of will nor did hee stirre vp new motions vnto sinning God forbid that any ChristiaÌ„ should so much as thinke it but they running of their owne accord and stirred vp by and of themselues be did so hold and bend that they vnwitting to themselues and not imagining any such thing did execute Gods decree For by this adulterie of Dauid the Lord did both chastice Dauid in that he did punish sinne with sinne as hee is wont and also hee made a way open for his purposes in time succeeding Like hereunto is that of Absalom he defiled Dauids Concubines 2. Sam. 17.22 the hâ—inousnes of which offence cannot bee vttered yet this way the Lord had decreed to take punishment of Dauid But the treacherie of Iudas if you respect the couetousnes and perfidiousnes of the man did so displease God that neuer any thing did offend him more and yet the Lord vsed both Iudas treacherie and the Priests crueltie for the finishing of that worke of our sâ—luation and he would haue these wretched instruments to effect that diuine worke Therefore the Apostles doe testifie that all these did nothing else but those things which the hand and counsaile of the Lord did decree to bee done Act. 4.28 And yet there is not here any monstrous thing wherof either Philip Melanchton or any other ought to bee ashamed vnlesse perhaps the holy doctrine of the Scripture seeme monstrous to you As for that that you demaund with what minde Luther did take away this verse from the Church prayers O holy Trinitie one God haue mercie vpon vs certeinly you are too suspitious If Luther did think erroneously touching the Trinitie conuince him his bookes are in mens hands and they are read by you as it seemeth very diligently Alleage if you can any one word iniurious either to the Trinitie or Vnitie For if out of all his writings which are innumerable you can draw no probable inkling of this suspition why doe you make question about one verse taken away from the Church prayers which whether it bee taken away or no I know not and though it bee taken away yet how appeares it that it was taken away by him But Luthers condition is very hard who must stand vnto both what hee hath written and what hee hath not written And these are those our paradoxes concerning God which you could carpe at in the bookes of all our writers which haue come foorth in a manner infinitely The matter is safe and sound the aduersarie hath viewed ouer all of them and yet hath found nothing By and by you proceede to the person of Christ Of Christ. and you demand what these words of Caluin meane Christ iâ— the sonne of God God of God God of himselfe What reprooue you here Campian what that hee said Christ is the Sonne of God or for that hee termed him God of God or else that he affirmeth him to be God of himselfe But which of these assertions is it that is not holy not granted not agreeable to the Catholike faith which if you deny you doe not conuince any Paradox of ours but you bewray your owne heresie But this is the point vnlesse I be deceiued wherin you haue found I know not what knot as it were in a rush The Nicene Fathers doe professe Christ to bee God of God to the end they may teach that the Son is of the same substance with the Father This saying some afterward catcht at so as that they did maintaine that Christ is not God by himselfe and of himselfe but that hee receiued it of his Father wherein they quite tooke away the Diuinity of Christ For vnlesse he be God of himselfe he cannot be God at all For that hee may be God hee must needs be God of himselfe Wherefore howsoeuer those Fathers did say that Christ is God of God yes Calain maintaineth that it is most firmely to be beleeued that Christ hath this to be God of himself vnlesse we will rob Christ of his Diuinity To be the Sonne he receiued that indeed of the Father for he is the Son
you Ireneus Victor Polycarp Cornelius Cyprian Sixtus Laurentius are ours But I affirme that all these do belong vnto vs let vs then consider how you will perswade vs they are yours Telesphorus enioyned a more strict obseruation of Lent fast appointed by the Apostles e DVR But J proue it by these witnesses Augustine Hierome Basil Ambrose Epiphanius Clemenâ— WHIT. pag. 862. And I proue the contrary by the Fathers August Epist. â—6 writeth plainely that neither Christ not his Apostles ordained any certaine time for fastings And so not Lent Tertul. aduer Psychicos In times past ChristiaÌ„s indifferently fasted of their owne free will as euery mans time and occasions required and not by any coÌ„mand of new gouernmeÌ„t Doth not this ouerthrow the necessary obseruatioÌ„ of Lent Chryso in Mat. hom 47. freely confesseth that Christ did not command vs to imitate his fast But what is Lent but an imitation of it Further Montanus was the first who brought vp set solemne daies of fastings Euseb lib. 5. cap. 17. Finally Ireneus in Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 26. sheweth that in the Primitiue Church there was great variety about the keeping of this fast and that this difference began not in his time only but was long before Therefore it is false that Christ and his Apostles appointed the fast of Fortie daies I deny that the Apostles ordeined any such Lenâ—en fast or that Telesphorus commaunded a more precise obseruation thereof The Apostles were farre from ordeining and Telesphâ—rus from reuiuing so great superstition Clemens his Constitutions where this is reported are not sufficient authoritie But if this fast were prescribed by the Apostles I wonder how afterwards it was discontinued so as it should bee necessarie for Telesphorus to enioyn the keeping of it more precisely especially seeing such strife was in the Church about the celebration of Easter The epistle of Telesphorus wherein he commaunds the 7. weekes fast hath the same authority with the rest of your decretall epistles of your Pope which were not framed by the most holy Bishops themselues but coyned since by the most impudent Parasites of the church of Rome Jren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Ireneus say you declared the Apostolike faith from the succession and sea of Rome So he might well then for as Ireneus elsewhere saith They retained with the succession of Bishops the gratious succession of truth for succession is nothing worth without truth Your Chaire and Sea hath Bishoply succession it hath not the succession of truth Victor say you by his edict subdued Asia He endeuored it indeed Campian but failed of his purpose for being a man very passionate he would needs excommunicate all such Churches of Asia as refused to keepe Easter according to the Romane custome When he began thus insolently to abuse his authority f DVR Neither Ireneus nor any other denied to Pope Victor this power to excommunicate the Churches of Asia WHIT. pag. 863. But Eusebius wriâ—eth lib. 5. cap. 25. that both Ireneus and many other Catholike Bishops sharpely reproued him for assuming that power Ireneus tamed and restrained him As for the controuersie about Easter Victor was so farre from composing and ending it that it coÌ„tinued vnto the g DVR By the same reason you may say the CouÌ„cels decree preuailed nothing to endiâ—â—â— controuersie WHIT. pag. 864. The reason is good proueth that wheÌ„ he could preuaile neither by examples reasons nor threatnings that those Churches did not accouÌ„t Pope Victor for the head of the Church And though after that Councell of Nice some Churches obserued the Passeouer after another manner yet the most Churches followed the iudgement and authoritie of the Councell So the Councell preuailed more then the Pope could doe Councell cell of Nice You may see how well Victor subduer all Asia Polycarpe in the question about Easter went to Rome Smyrna gathered his reliques Wonderfull reasons Polycarpe went to Rome to consult with Anycetus about Easter and Smyrna gathered his reliques ergo Polycarpe is yours Doth not the learned Vniuersities make you ashamed of this childish sophistrie h DVR Enuie maketh you forge an vntruth And whil for eunie you pine avvay aâ— the honor which is giuen of Christians to the reliques of Martyrs you imitate the Jewes and the Diuell WHIT. pag. 865. I haue spoken neither lesse nor more then Eusebius hath written who theÌ„ liued After we had gathered his banes being more precious then pearles and gold we buried them where it was thought sit And as for the reliques of Saiâ—ns I enuy them not the Saints themselues I euer honorablie remember But that the reliques of Saints were worshipped with religiâ—us honor as they are in your Church you shall neuer be able to proue His bones indeed were gathered by the Church of Smyrna not to worship them but to bury them as Eusebius in the same place recordeth But why are Cornelius and Cyprian yours forsooth because Cornelius abolished the i African error and Cyprian had him in great reuerence Oh wonderfull Iesuiticall Logick l DVR His supreame authoritia appeareth in this because hee decreed that controuersie being not the Bishop of Africke but of Rome WHIT. pag. 866. Saint Paul confuted many errors of the Churches of Galatia Coâ—inth Rome and diuers others yet was hee neuer supreame Bishop So did Augustine But what error did he suppresse was it touching Baptisme by heretikes that he neuer could doe but Cyprian and the Bishops of Africke constantly held it which proued they neuer acknowledged that he had any such authoritie who can chuse but be much moued with such strong reasons But let vs heare another Sixtus is ours and why so Seauen of the Clergie ministred vnto him while hee serued at the altar Seauen Deacons helped Sixtus to celebrate the Lords supper ergo Sixtus is yours If this reason be of force let him be yours hardly I will not striue with you about him but herein is nothing why he may not as well be k DVR Pope Sixtus a Priest offred vp the body and blood of Christ Deacons assisting of him could not bee a Caluinist but on our side WHIT. pag. 868. As if we had no Deacons who helpe the Minister when he celebrateth the Lords Supper ours as yours Doth it become you Campian thus to trifle thus to abuse our patience What followeth Laurence is yours how so I pray you Our aduersaries haue cast him out of their Calouder We remember him with reuerence as a saint and a friend of Christ though we worship him not as God But Prudentine prayed vnto him a thousand yeares agoe Giue leaue Campian to a Poet to vse poeticall auersions from whence yet no strong reason can be drawne But if Prudentius were something too superstitious what is that to vs Now you recken vp virgins Câ—cilia Agatha and others but what haue they done why they should not be ours When the Tyrants examined them of their faith they
2. cap. 35. whom they vsually called Atheist but an other Aetius the likenes of the names deceiued you To that you obiected concerning Vigilantius and Iouinian an answere is formerly giuen a DVR You speake vvitâ—ilie but you must of necessity do the one WHIT. pag. 884. If they haue defended any thing against the Scriptures they are heretikes but if not they cannot bee condemned by the iudgement of any Church for my part I neither meane to defend them nor can I greatly accuse thâ—m If they were hereticks conuince them of some error they held against the scriptures Hieromes passions can make no man an heretick Now you bring in the swarme of hereticks Macedonians PelagiaÌ„s Nestorians Eutychians the Mâ—â—otholites and Iconomachs These first we hate as hell it selfe those last haue committed nothing deseruing the name of hereticks To set vp and worship Images is hereticall but not to ouerthrow them What you iudge touching Luther and Caluinâ— is nothing materiall whiles they liued they nothing regarded you now they are dead they despise you what will you conclude at length from this hereticall companie Aâ—â— these you say forsooke the gouerment of your Church and were ouerthrowne by them Nay Campian these were your forefathers and you their progenie and successors for your monster of Poperie hath been hatched by the impure commixtion of all heresies But you now appeare out of hell Lands and are come to land and wheresoeuer you cast your eyes or thoughts All is your own as you say all subiect themselues and subscribe to your religion Me thinks I see that brainsick Merchant who standing by the sea and beholding the ships cried out all he saw was his owne otherwise such senselesse dreames could not proceed but from a wit and iudgement exceedingly weakned Sedes Apostolica For say you the Romane succession witnesseth in which Church as Austen speaketh the Primacie of the Apostolike chaire hath alwaies had the preeminence Many causes there were why speciall accompt in times past should be made of the church of Rome especially for that Rome was the seate of the Empire as approued in the Councell held at Constantinople Concil Constantinop 1. cap. 5. b DVR VVhy then may not he that is Bishop of this Church be ouer all other Bishops and so the Prince of Priests the chiefe Priest and supreame head of the rest WHIT. pag. 885. Because authoritie and dominion is not proper to them who are more excelleÌ„t then others which may bee shewed by infinite examples Who can be ignorant that the tribe of Iudah was the chiefe the first and the Prince of the other tribes will it therefore follow that the head of the principall family in this tribe had authoritie ouer all other tribes Aristotle was accounted the prince of Philosophers Homer of Poets Hippocrates of Physitians Apelles of Painters did they therefore exercise authoritie ouer all the rest of the same profession So though for a long time together the church of Rome for many respects was excellent among the rest yet it neuer had domination and rule ouer the rest of the Churches of Christ I graunt therefore thaâ—â—his Church was accompted the supreme chiefe greatest and the principall preferred before other Churches Trow you hence to conclude the Bishop of Rome is the chiefe and principall Bishop or head of the Church Concil Carthag 3. cap. 26. Dist 99 prima sedis Austen himselfe forbid it in the Councell of Carthage viz. that the Bishop of the chiefe Sea should not be called Prince of Priests or any like title Although then the holy Fathers for diuers respects gaue the preheminence to the church of Rome yet â—â—d they neuer acknowledge c DVR This prohibition was giuen by the Fathers because they knew that aâ— the soueraignty of the Apostolike Chaire did euer flourish in the Romane Church so they did not doubt but the manner of the chiefe Priest did appertainâ— onely to the Bishop of Rome WHIT. pag. 885. Nay the prohâ—bition of the Councell did as well concerne the Bishop of Rome whom all acknowledge to be the Bishop of the chiefe seate as the Bishops of other Seas Therefore for the time he obeyed the decree of the Councell and was content with his names and refused to be called the soueraigne chiefe Priest that infinite pâ—â—â—â—â—â—â—ll authority which he now challengeth neither â—â—d other Apostolike Churches whether they were founded by the Apostles themselues or by some of their schollers yeeld any testimonie of truth to the church of Rome Heere you stick in a quagmire and â—â—e faine by intreatie to beg that which by strong reason you should prooue and cannot But you vrge further and recompt the Pastors of seuerall countries to whaâ— end I pray you The remainderâ— say you of the labours of all those that haue published the Gospell in all nations farrs and wide all present vnto vs this same religion which Catholâ—kes at this day professe What could be affirmed more weakely for the Greeians are opposite vnto you which vnto this time haue their succession of Bishops not interrupted And further the spyeâ— which you send in your new found lands haue found in the furthest coasts thereof many monuments of that faith which we mainteine Osâ—rius neither may you preferre vs before them at least afore all you ought to preferre the truth Aristot. as the Philosopher saith But if you thinke your Popes and other glorious titles more auncient then the Gospell what can you alleage why Christ should not denie you to belong to him seeing you value any thing more then him Heere you tell vs of Princes Princes Kings Câ—sars Emperours and make a goodly shew of names as your manner is At length you meÌ„tion our noble Queenâ— Elizabeth and will needs teach her her dutie But she Campian needs no such Masters â—say 48. or instructiors She knoweth her selfe to be the nursing mother of the Church and that by diuine dispensation and accordingly doth she with all watchfulnes and care procure the good thereof and labours by all possible diligence to preuent all dangers intended by you and your adherents You say of Caluine and these Princes 〈◊〉 you haue spoken thâ—◠〈◊〉 heauen can noâ— containe theÌ„ But it passeâ—h your skill to pronounce certainely hereof nay your Pope himselfe cannot with all his might pull Caluiâ—â— out of heauen not any of them whom Christ hath made witnesses of his truth As for you and your fellowes we wish you not the gallowes but saluation I desire to hope the best of you and I doubt not but you might attaine to the knowledge of the truth in controuersie betwixt vs if for the time you could lay aside all preiudicate opinions and consult with the word of God and the holy Fathers of the Church As for the societie of Iesus whereunto you are admitted it braggeth that it is wholie at the Popes dispensation and loues Gregory the 13.
too well to loue Queene Elizabeth any thing at all who is so farre differing from him Nations conuerted to Christ You proceed and produce the vtmost coasts and countries of the world to testifie for you you should distinguish auncient and later times For graunt that the whole world had conspired with the Pope against Christ which it hath not that is no aduantage to you nor preiudice to vs d DVR You had spoken better if you had said that he forsakes the Gospell who affirmeth that the whole world conspireâ— against Christ. O miserable Caluinists who cannot defend their saith otherwise than by bereauing Christ of his kingdome and the whole christian world of faith WHIT. pag. 886. This is very true you say but Duraeus did we euer speak after this manner Will you keepe your custome of rayling and slaundering euen to the last act Nay rather O miserable Duraeus who blinded with malice and ignorance doth not feele your owne miserie Not the whole world but your Synagogue which is but a small part of the whole world hath conspired against Christ And is it to be feared least Christ should loose his kingdome and the world faith if your shaueling with his whole rabble fall froÌ„ the Gospell Though you be perfidious and wicked yet God will remaine alwaies faithfull and true whosoeuer forsakes the Gospell he is necessarily diuided from the Church To put to silence the oracles of the heathen Idols and carry the name of Christ vnto the Gentiles was no doubt a great worke and a diuine worke but that is none of your worke for you haue filled the world with Idols and as much as in you lay ouerturned the kingdome of Christ The Idols of the heâ—â—â—en haue been oâ—eâ—â—â—owne and the kingdome of God enlarged by the Apostles and Apostolike men â—â—â—e â—â—e oâ—e Papist or one Iesâ—ite amongst these For the Iesuites which assay to make new kingdomes amongst the Indians serue not Christ but the Pope not do they enlarge the kingdome of Christ but they prepare for the Pope a kingdome farre from the Lutheranes where he may raigne after he shall be banished from these countries c DVR You set vpon our societie and say vve haue diuided Christ Because certeine men haue chosen vnto them this name aboue all others to be accounted of the societie of Iesus because they haue consecrated theÌ„selues wholy to aduance this name must they therefore of necessitie diuide Christ haue not you Christ Colledge in Oxford WHIT. pag. 8â—6 I will not striue much with you about your societie of which I â—â—â—e very small account If you haue for some speciall consideration dedicated your selues vnto Christ what is that consideration why doe you not tell vs what Iesus requireth of you which all other Christians are not bound to doe If the order of your profession require that you propagate honour and magnifie the name Iesus if for this all Christians ought not to labour at least Bishops and specially your Pope and if they be Iesâ—ites who doe this why â—re not all your Diuines Bishops Cardinals and Popes Iesuites It may bee this care is â—arre from them Whereas then nameâ— are for distinguishing of things they be needlesse and vaine when there iâ— no difference in the thing Either shew vs what is the proper peculier duties of Iesuits or confesse that without any cause you haue appâ—opriated such a â—â—me vnto theÌ„ In Cambridge aswell â—s in Oxford we haue both Christ and Iesus Colledge but they that liâ—e in those Colledges are called onely Christians Thinke you that because there are many Colledgeâ— different in names there are many differeÌ„t Orders professions of men In places distinctions of names are necessarie and without danger vnlesse some schisme may happeÌ„ betwixt yâ— wâ—ls Haue you no other thing to say for your sect societie You aske is Christ diuided I answere you Iesuites haue diuided him els why haue you separated Iesus from Christ and leauing the auncient ordinary names of Christians which you scorne as too common you desire rather to be called Iesuites a new name of your owne framing then Christians As though there were some societie of Iesus appropriated to one kind of men separated from other Christians If there be then is Christ deuided if not then you Iesuites are too impudent to deuise a new societie You say either we or he preach a wrong Christ This of necessitie must be so But Luther preached the true Christ storme the Pope neuer so much looke then what Iesus what Christ you haue amongst you the true Christ it is not I beseech you Campian for Christes sake consider well whom you haue forsaken to whome you haue betaken you into what danger you haue cast your selfe But you will tell vs who is the true Christ I listen to heare it let him bâ— true Christ and on their side by whose bringing in Dagons neck was broken With a good will Christ by vs preached hath within these few yeares throwne downe an infinite sort of your Dagons for so soone as Christ accompanied with his Gospell got footing in any place your Dagons out of hand fell downe and had not only their armes and legs broken but necks also Patrick in Ireland and Palladius in Scotland what they were I meane not to search We Englishmen I graunt receiued much good by Austen the Monke and much euill also and superstition which he brought in with him It is plaine that we had receiued the Christian faith in Brittany many ages before his comming hither How it was by him increased or hindred I will not say But he liued sixe hundred yeares after Christ which as I iudge was not the purest time of the Church but as others affirme the age was most corrupt Now to conclude because to prosecute all were infinite you gather a heape of witnesses together the Vniuersities written lawes the common fashions of all people choyce of Emperours kingly rites orders of Knighthood habites church windowes coines gates houses all things great and small vnto all which I answere in a word if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto vs an other Gospell then that which Christ hath taught the Apostles published our Churches now professe we would reiect and detest it much lesse do we stand vpon these toyes of yours and maâ—â—ers of â—oâ—omâ—nt The florishing Vniuersitieâ— auncient lawâ— and iâ— all kinds monuments of great antiquitie all these afford vnto vs an open testimonie of the truth we professe Thus haue we heard your ten-fold Apollogy wherein I perceiue you haue bestowed no small diligence how you haue therein preuailed I leaue the iudgement to others If you haue satisfied none more therein then our Vniuersitie men I can assure you you haue lost your labour and are disappointed of your hope For my owne part though in this case I professe my selfe your aduersary yet your person Campian I loue as farre as a Christian may loue a Iesuite And I