Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	church_n	hold_v	scripture_n	3,916	5	6.2597	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78137	A reply to the frivolous and impertinent ansvver of R.B. to the discourse of P.B. In which discourse is shewed, that the baptisme in the defection of Antichrist, is the ordinance of God, notwithstanding the corruptions that attend the same, and that the baptisme of infants is lawfull, both which are vindicated from the exceptions of R.B. and further cleared by the same authour. There is also a reply, in way of answer to some exceptions of E.B. against the same.	Barbon, Praisegod, 1596?-1679.	1643 (1643)	Wing B755; Thomason E96_20; ESTC R5151	48,062	73

Frague and other holy Confessors of Iesus Christ they had union with Christ by Faith which is first and maine yea they had relation to the Church though in deep defection so as he publisheth his hope in vaine he saith further if they were united to Christ then Christ may have a spouse although no visible Church in the World but he doth but say it wee may chuse whether we will beleeve him It is as much non sense as if we should say Christ may have a Spouse though hee have none sure R. B. grew dull and much forgot himselfe The next Section containeth for the most part tautology the man delighting to sport himselfe like a foole with his owne bable onely he had a minde to aske me a question which I shall answer in convenient place R. B. Proceedeth further and hath another bout concerning the perpetuity of the Church carrying along with him his devised fable which he still fathers on mee without which he can say nothing he tells his Reader that I say seeing none can make it appeare elsewhere he might have added in purity he saith I say it is likely it continued under Antichrist so it seemeth he knew my drift and did of purpose wrest and pervert my words But he here demandeth how it can bee probable why because a little before I spake of the universality of the deection I did so to shew no Churches remained a part in a pure way therefore I said there that which hee also mentioneth here that in that regard the Waldenses were the first fruits to God they comming first out of defection into purity but the 2 Thess 2. troubleth the man much and that I alleadge it to prove the Churches continuance under the defection of Antichrist This is a riddle to R. B. and he is as a in a maze but hee answereth plainely here that Temple here spoken of where the man of sinne sitteth and is worshipped cannot bee taken for the Church of God but what is his reason because it is said verse the 3. the man of sinne is not revealed till first there be a departing then v. 9 10. he speaketh of his deceiveablenesse in the way of his comming he asketh himselfe a question and maketh himselfe answer such as it is in whom saith hee not in the Church but in them that perish as if many of the Church might not perish sure he forgetteth the Parable of the ten Virgins that five were wise and five foolish Mat. 25. but doth R. B. indeed thinke that the mystery of iniquity rose not in but out of the Church that is a rare opinion and singular judgement which I never heard of before and most contrary to the truth for the Churches might have continued till now in purity but for the working of that mysterie and beside I would faine learne how it should be a mystery if simply in the World not at all in the Church I had like to have passed by his reason the falling away is first the revealing is after what of this when the man of sinne which began to worke in the Church in the Apostles time had got some strength then he shewed himselfe more fully but he saith it must needs follow that seeing the persons the matter of the Church are departed from the Faith therefore it must needs follow they are not in any wise to bee esteemed the Church of God he doth but say this also we need not beleeve him Psal 106 28. E●●ch 16 unles we will but sure this departing was not totall like their dipping Iudah was departed from God and followed Idoles yet with Iudah was Gods Church so it may be and Eze. 16. is under the defection for all his saying in no wise it cannot be he would further inforce it from my judgement about the Beast and because they that wonder after the Beast and follow him are such as are not written in the Lambs booke of life It may be I am dull sure I understand not where the force of this reason lieth in regard of the matter in hand what if I doe hold the Church may consist of such many of whom may perish I thinke the Scripture will maintaine me in it But he hath a wonderfull conclusion I doe not say it is presumptuous but sure it is blasphemous his exposition of 2 Thess 2. He saith the Temple there is no more the Temple of God than Antichrist that sitteth there is God nor no otherwise to be esteemed nor hath any on more reason to affirme the one than the other see if he doe not taxe the Spirit ir selfe for the Spirit with more reason affirmeth it then R. B. hath reason so arrogantly to speak as he doth It were good for all sober minded men to beware of such desperate contradictors of the word of God weigh but the matter seriously is there no more reason to affirme the one than the other why doth the Spirit say he doth sit in the Temple of God what Temple hath God in the World but his Church and that is called his Temple every where The mystery of inquity it rose up in the Church how 2 Thes 2. ● long it was before the Church was destroyed by it R. B. cannot tell at the first it was of the same nature being weake as after when it was strong and was exalted to that height all which weighed it will appeare that R. B. had little reason to speake presumptuously as he hath done he taketh what he hath said for a full confutation and that it cannot bee any such continuednesse of the Church and most impudently fathering a lie upon me he concludeth this matter It must bee as R. B. pag. 2. saith that under the defection of Antichrist it could not continue but where are any such words in page 2. or in any part of my discourse no marvell he that durst be so bold with the Scripture should deale so by me sure his Church if it continue till they know it will deale with him for it for without not within is place for all liers Thus I have Rev. 22. 15. followed him to and fro in this particular of the Churches perpetuity and continuednesse in the World particularly under the defection of Antichrist I doubt not but it will appeare to be a truth for all R. B. hath said or is able further to say to the contrary that he beleeveth it not I suppose it doth plainely appeare that they in their way have no ground to goe on till this beleeved namely the cessation of the Church that their practice is grounded upon the denyall of a truth fully held forth in the Scriptures of the Churches perpetuity let them shift it if they can and in their next let them informe the Reader the true sense and right meaning of those Scriptures by mee alleadged and I only advise they take heed of falling into some familisticall straine I have done Now he proceedeth to

A REPLY TO THE Frivolous and impertinent ANSVVER of R. B. to the discourse of P. B. IN Which discourse is shewed that the Baptisme in the defection of Antichrist is the Ordinance of God notwithstanding the Corruptions that attend the same and that the Baptisme of Infants is lawfull born which are vindicated from the exceptions of R. B. and further cleared by the same AUTHOUR There is also a REPLY in way of Answer to some Exceptions of E. B. against the same 1 IOHN 4. 1. Beleeve not every spirit but trie the spirits whether they bee of GOD. 1 THESS 5. 21. Trie all things and keep that which is good LONDON Printed in the yeare 1643. TO THE READER IT commeth to passe often times that words well spoken are by some ill taken and matters clearely and plainely declared are exceedingly wrested and perverted and the good intent of person wholy subverted It fared so of old with Moses with David with Jeremiah yea with our Lord himselfe and with all his holy Apostles in speciall it so fared with holy Paul the great Teacher of the Gentiles there were some that perverted his sayings to their owne destruction the holy Martyrs Pet. 2. 3. 16. and Confessors of the Truth have had also experience of it in all Ages all which considered I may not thinke it strange or count it a new thing that it so fareth with mee being one of the meanest of the servants of Iesus Christ and the rather for that I did looke for it knowing I had to doe with persons of froward and perverse spirits I indeavoured to make things plaine so as I am checked for Tautologie by my opposite I did indeavour with all Ingenuity to set forth the true meaning and right grounds of my opposites judgement and practices and then did make opposall by inferences and other positive arguments I prayed them to measure such measure to me in way of their answer but contrarily they have fained Imaginary things and fathered them on me with more lying falshoods and also so perverted the sence and playne intent of my discourse as were it not for the taking off the falshoods they have fathered on mee and clearing of my discourse and the matter therein set forth I should count it needlesse to spend time and paines in making reply to such a lame and meane answer I should have l●ft it to the judgement of the studious Reader whether he hath taken of the charge and vindicated their judgement and practice from the errours and absurdities by me obj●cted Now courteous Reader thou mayst take notice that since the publishing of that short discourse touching Baptisme some in their Pamphlets have taken occasion to carpe and snarle at some particulars therein But now on R. R. pretending great strength in himselfe and weaknesse in the discourse would seeme to make a full answer and overthrow all and which is more foyle the Authour with his owne Weapons and with one word of his mouth to blast the whole discourse But sure if he be well minded he will be found a vaine boaster and one that either not understood what he undertooke to answer like to him that Solomon Prov. 18. 13. speaketh of that answereth a matter before he heare it or otherwise he hath dealt malitiously and unlike the servant of Iesus Christ perverting the words the scope and plaine meaning of his opposite rather then confuting of him toward the end of his Epistle he telleth his Reader that not regarding to follow his opposite to and fro a fine shift to put off or passe by that he could with no shew or Colour answer he saith he will reduce the whole discourse to three heads the second whereof hee saith is the Baptisme of the Church of Rome sure it is a wonderfull thing that he should reduce a pare of my discourse to such a head he dreamed certainly for there is not one word nor syllable of it in all my discourse let him looke againe and take spectacle to help his eyes and he shall not find it I treated in my discourse of the Baptisme of Christ under the defection of Antichrist continuing Gods Ordinance as Circumcision continued Gods Ordinance under the defection of the ten Tribes he hath a matter in his Imagination and that hee putteth in the stead thereof and it must be admitted to be the same or else R. B. will thinke hee hath great wrong done him though it be never so contrary if one had reasoned to maintaine the Circumcision of the Apostate Tribes to have been the Ordinance of God and some in opposition should have intreated of the Circumcision of the two Claves at Dan and Bethell and should be confident it is the same Salomons saying would have bin made good in such a one as it is also in R. B. bray a foole in a morter and his foolishnesse will not leave him I told him Prov. 17. 22. and made it plaine so as he nor any other is able to gaynesay it that corruption maketh not a nullity which sure he would have gaynesayed if he could yet because of the corruption Baptisme there must needs be an Idole and his calling of it the Baptisme of the Church of Rome will make it so and none shall help it for to tell him otherwise he will say as Nicodemus did how can it be as if hee or those of his opinion had infallible knowledge and were able to comprehend all truth whatsoever and what they doe not imbrace must needs bee an errour and those high sinners that speake or hold contrary if R. B. did but minde his often changes he would not bee so high minded and confident but would rather feare hee was as confident of his first Baptisme certainly of his second he was so nothing might be spoken against them but it was a great sinne and they high sinners against the truth yet he was mistaken in his Iudgement in both and they were Idolls in his account and hee rejected them and now this his third it is the onely truth which none may speake against but he is a high sinner It were good for all men to beware of such men according to Salomons Counsell My Son fear God c. and meddle not with those that are Prov. 24. 21. given to change a man that had a minde to come to R. B. in his third Baptisme before a yeare or two spent in the serious waighing of the matter would find happily that R. B. had left his third Baptisme and taken up afhurth for by that time he could espie such faultes in his former Baptisme and also in my discourse as to overthrow it by it selfe will it is likely finde something in his third Baptisme to make him reject that also If hee bee true to his owne principle he will finde some errour or corruption in it as in the former that will inforce him so to doe I may tell him and he and all other shall finde it