censure of the Romish Church and his Lordship hopes to prove it out of Scripture If you neglect to hear this Church you shall be a Heathen and a Publican Matth. 18. 17. This Church in the Marques his sense is the Church of Rome and I grant it is but not the Church of Rome onely for it is as well the English the French the Geneva or any other particular Church and admit it were onely the Church of Rome yet the matters wherein that Church is to be obeyed are not Articles of Faith neither the very Text tells us it is onely in points of scandal and breach of unity in civil matters His next Scripture is Ephes. 5. 27. where the Church shall be presented unto Christ a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle Here is a Church I yield that cannot err but it is not the Romish Catholique Church no neither Romish nor Catholique if his Lordship means the Catholique militant Church for it is a Church that can neither err nor sin without spot and therefore their own Salmeron says It must be understood of the Triumphant Church and if his Lordship thought otherwise Augustine would have told him he was a Pelagian M. We say the Church hath been always visible you deny it Our Church saith nothing of this Point and therefore if I say any thing it must be ex abundanti dictum more than Covenants yet something I will say and something shall Liberius say too as a Salmeron quoteth him replying to Constantius his boast of the multitude of Arrians Non refert numerum esse magnum aut parvum nam Judaeorum Ecclesia in Babylone constituta ad tres pueros redacta fuit No matter whether the number be small or great for the Jewish Church in Babylon was reduced to three And at this time Liberius was Pope of Rome and because I am faln upon this time I would gladly have an answer where the Visibility of the Romish Church was unless they mean a Visibility of Heresie when Liberius himself excommunicated Athanasius and turn'd Arrian Nay more and to the very point where was the Visibility of the Catholique and true Church it self at that time but onely in that Pillar of Faith c Athanasius I confess Nazianzen says his Church had it {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} most singular to it self to be preserved from drowning in the Arrian Deluge but the visible shock and storm of Persecution no man stoutly withstood and overcame but Athanasius onely His Fathers Origen in Matth. hom 30. saith The Church is full of light but that light is fulgor veritatis he himself tells us so the brightness of Truth no external splendor what 's this to a visible Church Cyprian the Church of God encompassed with light sheds her beams through all the World Cyprian's light is like Origen's an inward light too and were it as the Sun an outward Light it would not shine always in every Horizon and where it doth shine it may sometimes be eclipsed Chrysost. Hom. 4. in Esay 6. speaketh of the duration and perpetuity not of the Visibility of the Church and saith It is easier for the Sun's light to be extinguished than for the Church utterly to be destroy'd or if you will {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} to disappear so saith Chrysostome and so say we too the Church wil be always visible for an Invisibility we hold not absolutly but comparatively it may be reduced to so inconsiderable a number as in regard of the paucity and fewness of the Professors the World will not own it under the notion of a Church Again Persecution may so controul the outward Profession of the Gospel that nothing belonging to external Government Discipline and Exercise of the Ministery shall be performed otherwise than by stealth and in a clandestine way Augustine speakes of the Visibility of the Church in his time that it was then visible not that it had been before or should be after him always so visible M. We hold the perpetual universality of the Church and that the Church of Rome is such a Church you deny it Our Church denieth not the Catholique or universal Church 't is an Article of the three Creeds she holds That the Romish is such a Church she doth deny because 't is in none of their Creeds and yet if it be in the Scripture I dare promise for her she shall and will believe it As to that place of Psalm 2. 8. I will give thee the Heathen for thine Inheritance and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy Possession It is a most clear Prediction of the calling of the Gentiles and that all the World shall be subdued by the power of the Gospel so here 's an Universality of Christ's Kingdom but not of the Romish Church But I confess the mischief is here is a Tibi dabo I will give thee and wheresoever the Church of Rome findes that she takes all for her own that follows Let us observe now Rom. 1. 8. I thank my God that your Faith is spoken of throughout the whole World That is to all the World it is published that Rome hath embraced the Christian Faith Is she the Catholique Church because of that sure this Text no way enforceth any such Illation for we are told as much of the Church of Thessalonica 1 Thess. 1. 8. that their Faith to God-ward is spread abroad in every place and then we must mend our Creed and say I believe the two Catholique Churches that of Thessalonica and that of Rome For his human Authorities take this note by the way and they are soon cleared The Primitive Church held that consent and unity in Doctrine made all Churches in truth to be One however distinguished by names The Church of Christ is One saith Cyprian divided into several Members through the whole World and this Unity made them al not only One but Apostolical and Primitive also for Omnes primae omnes Apostolicae dum unam omnes probant unitatem saith Tertullian All were Primitive all Apostolical whilest all shewed the same Unity yea and it made all Churches though otherwise particular Catholique too Therefore the Church of Alexandria was called the Catholique Church by Arsenius so Augustine was Catholicae Ecclesiae Episcopus Bishop of that Church which held the Catholique Faith and in this sense Rome was anciently stiled the Catholique Church So it was truly said by Hierome It is all one to say the Roman Faith and the Catholique Faith but though it was true then it is not true now for the Then and Now Roman Church are two M. We hold the Unity of the Church to be necessary in all points of Faith you deny it Our Church is here silent yet an Unity the Protestants hold too in essential matters of Faith and hold it so that if this Unity be a Note of the true Church they have there
did by consequence though not expresly to the Cardinal Bembus saying concerning the treasure of indulgences in a mockery what a mighty revenue make we of the fable of Christ Make a fable of Christ and what becomes of either Testament What if he or Calvin erred concerning the Trinity did not Liberius as I shewed before subscribe to the Arrian Heresy What if Calvin held with Nestorius two Persons in Christ did not Pope Honorius hold but one will in him an heresy full as grosse and for which he was condemned by the 6 General Councel of Constantinople What need we run into exact paralleels with them it is enough we can produce a Caelestine the 3. teaching that heresy is a sufficient cause of Divorce in Matrimony A John 22. who taught that the Souls of the just did not see God before the Resurrection Another John 23. that denied the Resurrection of the body And how I pray do the great Clerks of the Romish Interest come off here very poorly most certain even just as S. Augustine said quasi hoc sit respondere posse quod est tacere non posse as if to answer and not to say nothing were all one For if the evidence be given in so full against their Popes that find them guilty they must and all other shifts fail then such a Pope did not define e Cathedra fitting in his in-erring-chair but ut Doctor peculiaris exposuit obiter opinionem suam onely delivered his opinion as a private Doctor which is a plain confession that this rare knack of Infallibility is not by his Holinesse carried alwayes about him Again sometimes 't is no heresie what such a Pope thought because nulla adhuc praecesserat Ecclesiae Definitio the Church never desired any thing in the Point so that be the opinion never so grosse and absurd never so destructive to the many principles of Faith never so repugnant to the expresse Text of sacred Scripture yet heresie it is not with them till the Church define it Lastly some have held erroneous oppinions but upon their death-beds have been of another minde and would have defin'd the Truth but see the ill luck of it the good men have been prevented by death this is Bellarmines excuse for John 22. And yet the Cardinal's relation out of Villarius of this John's retractation represents his holinesse in no Definitive posture and as far from the thought that he was as Pope Summus judex controversiarum in Ecclesia Supreme Judg of controversies in the Church which is the main Subject of the Jesuites fourth book de Romano Pontifice For first the Pope saith Existimare se jam probabiliorem esse sententiam eam He is now of the minde that it is the more probable mark that he goes no further than probability in his Retractation and Palinody and probability is no good foundation for a Decernimus for a definition opinion that the Souls of the Saints enjoy the beatifical vision before the day of judgement And that he did now adhere to that opinion unlesse the Church mark that too to whose definition he would subject most willingly his own judgement should otherwise determine sure the Pope was brought as low in minde as body who did thus pusillanimously submittere fasces and vail to the judgement of the Church or else was certainly perswaded that whatever their Parasites give out Popes in truth differ little from meaner persons in the point of deciding Theological questions The M. his next remove is from the Protestants Doctrine to their divisions in Doctrine denied it cannot it must not be But divisions there are this sad bleeding Church of England is a most lamentable a most deplorable demonstration of it And what if there be divisions amongst us are they alwayes the marks of the false Church and unity the note of the True His Lordship will scarce be able to prove that Tertullian did I am certain think otherwise Schismata apud haereticos fere non sunt Hereticks saith he seldom differ they agree too well But why should his Lordship urge our differences so against us Are the Protestants only guilty of these dissentions Did not Paul and Barnabas grow into such a paroxisme and cholerique fit as they parted upon it Acts 15. 39. Did not Paul and Peter strive about a thing indifferent Gal. 2. 11. Were not Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus and Pope Victor at defiance Did not Chrysostome and Epipharius proclaim {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} implacable War each against nother And is the Church of Rome so unison so all of a piece as to afford no jarres The happier she sure and happier now than of old when she had as good as prudent Governours as now and I think a little better And though St. Paul had charge of her as a Gentile Church yet could he not look so narrowly into her but some there were who caused dissentions in her contrary to the Doctrine he had delivered But if such harmony there be at Rome how cometh it then to passe that in that great Article of the Romish-Catholique Faith about the Popes-Infallibility Bellarmine himself undertaketh Durandus and Adrian for accriminating Gregory the First of errour How cometh it then to passe that he taketh Panormitan and Gerson to task for saying that a private man furnished with better Authority of Scripture is to be preferred for his opinion before the Pope How cometh it then to passe that he censureth Nilus Gerson Almain Alphonsus de Castro and Pope Adrian the sixth for teaching that a Pope may be an heritique And to be short how cometh it then to passe that in his vast volume of controversies there is very rarely any one wherein the Cardinal hath not to do with some one or other of his own party as dissenting from his own Thesis and Position so that a grave Author hath cull'd out no lesse then 303 oppositions amongst the Marquis his un-jarring Catholiques And he that knoweth nothing of the quarrel between the Jesuits and Seminary Priests may see enough in Watson the Seminary who is so liberal a libeller so full of gall and bitternesse as me thinks I hear the Jesuit expostulating with him as Absalon did with Hushai Is this thy kindnesse to thy Friend Nor are they onely the smaller Bells in the Romish Church that ring thus awake the great ones the Popes themselves interfere witnesse the difference about the Translation of the Bible between Sixtus the fifth and Clement the eighth and that so great an one as all the Wits of Rome will never be able to make them Friends again So that if his Lordship takes these to be no jarrs his ear is not I think very musical And because the Marques voucheth for the Catholiques no jarrs Sir Edwin Sands True it is he saith the Catholiques have a readier way to reconcile their Enmities and to decide their Differences having
AN ANSWER To the Marques of WORCESTER'S Last Paper to the Late KING Representing in their true posture and discussing briefly the main Controversies between the English and the Romish Church Together with some Considerations upon Dr Bayly's Parenthetical Interlocution relating to the Churches Power in deciding Controversies To these is annext SMECTYMNUO-MASTIX OR Short Animadversions upon Smectymnuus in the Point of LYTVRGIE By HAMON L'ESTRANGE Esqr Magis amabo inspici a Rectis quam timebo morderi a Perversis Augustin London Printed by Robert Wood for Henry Seile and are to be sold at his Shop over against St Dunstan's Church in Fleet-street 1651. To the truly Noble Religious and my dearly honoured 〈◊〉 the Lady ANNE L'ESTRANâ—◠〈◊〉 Hunstanton in Norfolk Madam I Have entituled this Treatise An Answer to the Marques of Worcester If it really proves so I shall be most glad for then I know it will prove an Answer to you I mean to your Desires those Desires I should extremely rejoyce to answer in this or any other kinde whatsoever But prove that as it may this is my comfort that it will be in some sort an Answer to God for the time it stood me in which might have been worse imploy'd It humbly resorts in this Dedication Lady to you why should it not It is the Revenue the product of your commands To those commands next God I totally resign the glory may result from the little I have done well the many Imperfections I shall file upon mine own account And as I have ever found in myself a Disability to resist your commands so your commands never found my will in readier mode and posture of compliance than in this Subject for had not they prest me into this service of Truth and this Church my peculiar inclination had listed me a Voluntier For no little impatience hath possest me to hear Error so long and so uncontroul'd crow and triumph over Truth in that his Lordships Paper the great pretenders to the Protestant belief to their shame be it spoken or not willing or not able or not daring to oppose her Those whom it more concern'd making thus default of their devoir resolved I was though the weakest of many hundreds of this Churches Votary to become her Champion and put my self into the Forlorn being most assured I should thereby not onely in some measure pay a tributary Vote to the Cause of God but also in part vindicate the Reputation of that side to which I so constantly adhered and to demonstrate to the face of calumny that amongst those so decry'd and reproached as popishly affected some there are of that animosity and courage who dare tell Rome to her teeth that that thing which she calls her Religion is but meer Policy not founded upon Christ or his Apostles but new modell'd in most and those the weightiest Points within these last five hundred years How my atchivement and performance hath answered my daring it becomes not me to judge Suppose the worst and that I have made too publique my many failings yet have I not failed to publish a zeal firm and cordial to the Protestant Profession And that zeal will I trust bid these unworthy Labours in some degree welcome to God and his Church It is one and the same spirit to defend the Masters Interest which animateth the smallest lap-dog and which rouseth the stoutest Mastiff I have in this Work done what I could had it also been what I would then should this Tract without the auxiliary allowance of favour and indulgence have counterpoised the merit of this great Cause and value of your commands As it is it must beseech your acceptance as one Act of grace superadded to those millions of Obligations which consign me Madam Your most honouring Brother and sincerely addicted Servant Hamon L'estrange Ringsted June 1. 1650. TO THE READER Gentle Reader I Present thee here with an Answer such as it is to a Reply to the Late Kings last Paper to the Marq. of Worcester Whose Reply that is is difficult to determine Dr Bayly tells us 't is the M. of Worcesters but sure it may as well be stiled the Cardinal of Perâ—ons it suting so exactly with that Cardinable Reply made long since to the Apology of King James Father to the late King but call it what you please the Marquesses or the Cardinals or the Cardinal of Worcesters like Chrysippus his Medea in a similary case thou hast here an Answer to it yea to that Reply wherein the main Differences between the Papists and the Protestants are acurately discust if the Doctor be not mistaken as I much fear he is 't was well and advisedly done he said not All the main Differences for Prayers in an unknown Tongue and the Popes Supremacy are Differences and in the main too yet not so much as saluted in passage nor any the least notice taken of them and Adoration of Images no petty Difference hath but a very perfunctory a slight glance and is far from being discust And for those Differences treated of few will I think of the Protestant perswasion say with the Doctor they are acurately discust for wherein doth that acuratenesse consist View the order and array of the Points and Tenets there set down never was there such a confused Rhapsody such an independent medly shuffled pesle-mesle together without coherence without care In the Scheme and frame of his Positions there is I grant a great an eminent care but not a commendable not an honorable care not a care to state the Questions ingenuously right but rather to render them more dubious and dark but a care to dissemble the Errors of his own Church the Truths of ours a care to dis-guise the Protestant Opinions under his own imaginary Fictions and to represent Romes putrid and ulcerous Body with a specious and glorious out-side in short a care to contrive that Paper with such artifice as might render it unanswerable And therefore I have qualified my Answer with these additional words Such as it is implying such an Answer as that Paper will admit of a full and compleat one being not onely difficult but almost impossible for it being farced and stuffed thick with Quotations the words of the Authors are rarely recited very often the Chapters and Sections omitted and sometimes the whole Books so that besides an infinite waste of Time it requires a kinde of Divination to decypher and set forth what the Marques his minde was fixt upon This notwithstanding I have with most diligent impartiality collected what might in any degree favour his Lordships opinion or abet his Cause and to every Proof fitted a suitable Answer where Conjecture could not attain I there freely acknowledge it being secure under the candor of thy Charity which will consider that to finde an Indictment it is not enough that the Witnesses be produced and appear but they must also give in Evidence and till that Evidence in all particulars
be given in an Answer to all particulars cannot be required But this Answer to that Reply cannot comprehend the whole Arrest and content of this Tract there are some Animadversions relating to Dr. Bayly which I have stitcht as an Appendix and Lean-to to that Answer the word is I think concinn and apt enough it relating to that Doctor whom his Majesty suspected a a Lean-to to the Marques And truly that Discourse of his which I have undertaken speaks him little lesse wherein his Majesty not the Marques steps in as Opponent he that pretended so much b wariness of seeming to present the late King worsted was not wary at all of seeming to present himself according to the idiome of speech Worster'd Christian Charity bids me repute him under a notion more modified than Papist but Truth it self enforceth me to say he erreth in some particulars with the Church of Rome yet were he more than popish Papist profest my witness is in Heaven c ill will to the man I bear none a Member of the Church he is and d as the Church is a name of Vnity not of Separation so I heartily beseech God that all those who are Members of that Church and consigned Christians may be of one minde in the Lord and keep the Vnity of the spirit in the bond of peace which peace the Lord of peace himself give us always by all means Vale The late Kings Paper in answer to the Marques of Worcester Introductorily discussing some Controversies between the English and the Romish Church MY Lord I have perused your Paper whereby I finde that it is no strange thing to see Error triumph in Antiquity and flourish all those Ensignes of Vniversality Succession Vnity Conversion of Nations c. in the face of Truth and nothing was so familiar either with the Jews or Gentiles as to besmear the face of Truth with spots of Novelty for this was Jeremiahs case Jer. 44. 16. viz. As for the word which thou hast spoken unto us in the Name of the Lord we will not hearken unto thee but we will certainly do whatsoever thing hath gone forth of our own mouths to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven and to powre out drink-offering unto her as we have done we and our fathers our Kings and our Princes in the Cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem as we have done there is Antiquity we and our fathers there is Succession In the Cities of Judah and Jerusalem there is Vniversality so Demetrius urged Antiquity and Vniversality for the goddess Diana viz. That her Temple should not be despised nor her Magnificence destroyed whom all Asia and the World Worshipped So Symmachus that wise Senator though a bitter Enemy to the Christians Servanda est inquit tot seculis fides sequendi sunt nobis parentes qui feliciter sequuti sunt suos we must defend that Religion which hath worn out so many Ages and follow our Fathers steps who have so happily followed theirs So Prudentius would have put back Christianity it self viz. Nunc dogma nobis Christianum nascitur post evolutos mille demum Consules Now the Christian Doctrine begins to spring up after the revolution of a thousand Consul-ships But Ezekiel reades us another Lecture Ne obdurate cervices vestras ut patres vestri cedite manum Jehovae ingredimini sanctuarium ejus quod sanctificavit in saeculum colite Jehovam Deum vestrum Be not stiff-necked as your fore-fathers were resist not the mighty God enter into his Sanctuary which he hath consecrated for ever and worship ye the Lord your God Radbodus King of Phrygia being about to be baptized asked the Bishop what was become of all his Ancestors who were dead without being baptized The Bishop answered that they were all in Hell whereupon the King suddenly withdrew himself from the Font saying Ibi profecto me illis Comitem adjungam Thither will I go unto them no less wise are they who had rather err with Fathers and Councels than rectifie their understanding by the Word of God and square their Faith according to its Rules Our Saviour Christ saith we must not so much hearken to what hath been said by them of old time Matth. 21. 12. as to that which he shall tell you where Auditis dictum esse antiquitis is exploded and Ego dico vobis is come in its place which of them all can attribute that credit to be given unto him as is to be given to Saint Paul Yet he would not have us to be followers of him more than he is a follower of Christ 1 Cor. 11. 1. Wherefore if you cry never so loud Sancta mater Ecclesia sancta mater Ecclesia the holy mother Church holy mother Church as of old they had nothing to say for themselves but Templum Domini Templum Domini the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord we will cry as loud again with the Prophet quomodo facta est meretrix Urbs fidelis How is the faithfull City become an Harlot If you vaunt never so much of your Roman Catholick Church we can tell you out of Saint John that she is become the Synagogue of Sathan neither is it impossible but that the house of prayers may be made a Den of Thieves you call us Hereticks we answer you with Saint Paul Acts 24. 14. After the way which you call Heresie so worship we the God of our fathers believing all things which were written in the Law and the Prophets I will grant you that all those marks which you have set down are marks of the true Church and I will grant you more that they were belonging to the Church of Rome but then you must grant me thus much that they are as well belonging to any other Church who hold and maintain that Doctrine which the Church of Rome then maintained when she wrought those Conversions and not at all to her if she have changed her first Love and fallen from her old Principles for it will do her no good to keep possession of the Keys when the Lock is changed now to try whether she hath done so or no there can be no better way than by searching the Scriptures for though I grant you that the Catholick Church is the white in that Butt of Earth at which we all must aim yet the Scripture is the heart centre or peg in the midst of that white that holds it up from whence we must measure especially when we are all in the white We are all of us in gremio Ecclesiae so that Controversies cannot be decided by the Catholick Church but by the Scriptures which is the thing by which the nearness nnto Truth must be decided for that which must determine Truth must not be fallible but whether you mean the consent of Fathers or the Decrees of General Councels they both have erred I discover no Fathers nakedness but deplore their infirmities that we
yea and to the M. his Church too but then he must set on fire all that superstructure of Wood Hay and Stubble which is built I fear not upon the true Foundation neither But before he enters into that way some Obstacles some Rubs are to be removed 't is fit the Kings way should be made smooth M. The first Rub is Your Majesty was pleased to urge the Errors of certain Fathers to the prejudice of their Authority Not so pleased as the Marques was to urge the supposed Blemishes of Luther and Calvin to the prejudice of our Church No not pleased at all for he said I deplore their Infirmities 114. But to the prejudice of their Authority they are urged nor could the M. excuse them but argueth from his Majesties own words So did the Apostles but when all were gathered together in Councel and could send about their Edicts with these Capital Letters in the Front Visum est Spiritui sancto nobis then I hope your Majesty cannot say that it was possible for them to err So though the Fathers migh err in particulars yet those particular Errors would be swallowed up in a General Councel By the Marques his comparing General Councels with that in Acts 15. we may infer that in his sense These may say as well as That Visum est Spiritui sancto nobis It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us And indeed it is no more than what Bellarmine and Stapleton said before him and the Doctrine of Infallibility infallibly implies as much But let the Marques and his party say what they please sure I am Antiquity never durst think so much less say it take one instance for all That Great and General Councel of Nice observe what a prudent and wary course she took in setting down her Determinations in statlng the business concerning the Celebration of Easter it being a matter of indifferency Placuit ut adderetur visum est barely so not Spiritui sancto nobis ut omnes obtemperarent We think fit that all obey our Decree but when she came to that great Confession of Faith now call'd the Nicene Creed you hear no more of Placuit then but delivereth her self Credit Catholica Ecclesia The Catholique Church beleeves And this was done on purpose ut ostenderent quae ipsi scripsissent non sua esse inventa sed Apostolorum Documenta to declare That what they had written was not their own Fiction but the doctrine of the Apostles This was the wisdom of that eminent Councel As to the Marques his supposition that the Fathers particular Errors would be swallowed up in a General Councel I grant it but certainly the Councel would be little the better for them it is not the reducing and incorporating many several Poysons into one Bowl can alter the venomous quality or hinder their operation but it may be said those Poysons may meet with so many benign Corrections as will in all probability render them inoffensive true I grant that too but then it is not their number will do it for all that are innocent as Doves are not as wise as Serpents an honest meaning saith Nazianzen keeps no Court of Guard and Heresies if they cannot predominate in power they will undermine with craft At that General Councel of Ariminum branded by his Majesty for heretical the farr greater number were pious and orthodox men the Arrian party perceiving they could not out-vote them resolved if possible to out-wit them and therefore moved in Councel that whereas the Nicene Creed had brought in are word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} signifying the second Person in the Trinity to be of the same substance with his Father which word gave much offence to many because it was not to be found in the Scriptures and was very dark and intricate in it self that therefore it should thence forward be forborn and instead thereof should be inserted that the Son is like unto his Father in all things according to the Scriptures This sly practice passed not undiscerned to so me of the quicker sented Bishops who tooth and nail opposed it but others yet well-meaning men too being perswaded by some whom the Heretiques had suborned that the difference was not so considerable as worthy to make an absolute breach in the point and that in effect there was as much implied in what was added instead of that word and finding that the Emperour would tire them out if they did not yield at length consented to have that word omitted Thus this Councel erred by Circumvention and that it erred is enough for us and against the Marques for if one erreth another may yea all may and that others have done so too his Majesty hath instanced which is to the Marqhes his second Rub. M. Nor is it enough that the Marques replies Those Councels were called when the Church was under Persecution seeing General Councels they were still for all that the five Patriarchs with their subordinate Bishops being present either in Person or by Proxy M. And if we should suppose them to be General and free Councels yet they could not be erroneous in any particular man's judgement untill a like General Councel should have concluded the former to be erroneous So that by his Lordships Rule had not the Councel of Calcedon nor any other since condemned Eutyches for an Heretick we must all have held to this day but one Nature in Christ Wherefore if it should be granted that the Church at any time had determined amiss yet the Church cannot be said to have erred because you must not take the particular time for the Catholique Church Sure if at that time the Catholique Church did err no after-act or rectification can make it otherwise and admit she once erred it will follow she may err again and again and that her seeming rectification may whatsoever is pretended swerve as much from the Truth as her first Error For as in Civil affairs the Parlaments alter their Laws upon experience of present inconveniences so the Councels change their Decrees according to that further knowledge which the holy Writ assures us shall increase in the latter end This similitude must infer a power in General Councels to change their Decrees and Canons as well as Parlaments their former Statutes and I yield that Power resident in them in matters of outward Polity and Government in the Church but that they have a power to decree matters of Faith which shall binde the Church needs no other Confutation than the allowing them a power to change their Decrees For the Rule of Faith as Tertullian saith excellently is one onely immoveable and unreformable This Law of Faith continuing firm other matters of Discipline and conversation admit the novelty of reformation If I recall mine own words it is no Error but the avoidance of an Error The recalling mine own words may be an Error as well as
is the Rule of Faith and after he tells you why it must be so because a Rule must be certain and known for if it be not certain it is no Rule and if not known it is no Rule to us now there is nothing more certain or more known than the Scriptures Compare the Marques his infallible Rule of Traditions with this saying of Bellarmine and it will appear they have little of a Rule in them For certainly what is more uncertain When the Primitive Church it self within a hundred years after the Apostolical Times was split into that great Schism about the Celebration of Easter which was but a meer Tradition and was not reconciled till the Councel of Nice And for being known nothing is less seeing in the very Church of Rome they are not yet agreed which are Apostolical Traditions The Scriptures he urgeth are Rom. 12. 6. And there is a Rule of Faith I grant and an infallible one too but it is not praeter besides nor extra without the Scripture but that mentioned in the Scriptures Gal. 6. 16. there is a Rule but a Rule of Doctrine concerning Christian Liberty in the point of Circumcision no Rule of Faith Rom. 6. 17. there is neither Rule nor Faith but a form of Doctrine delivered to them by the preaching of the Gospel what he urged out of 2 Cor. 10. 12 16. is so extremely and grosly impertinent as sure when he cast his eye upon that place his Lordship was either entring into or newly raised from such a nap wherein the Doctor found him M. But lest we should mis-understand what this Rule of Faith is the Marques tells us By it is not meant the holy Scriptures for that cannot do it and he gives the Reason whilest there are unstable men who wrest this way and that way to their own destruction So that Scripture is now with the Marques no infallible Rule at all Traditions have outed her clear and the Reason inferreth plainly that we must not walk abroad at high noon-day without a Torch because some men notwithstanding the Sun shined clear have fallen into a Ditch Of farr more weight I must needs confess are his Humane than Divine Authorities which yet shall not pass without my Animadversions Irenaeus lib. 4. c. 45. speaking of those who succeeded the Apostles saith Hi fidem nostram custodiunt Scripturas sine periculo exponunt These preserve our Faith and expound the Scriptures without peril of error Observe first 't is hi these men who were so near the Apostles as they were instructed by those who were contemporaries with them as himself says Then again 't is exponunt they do expound not that they are infallible or cannot expound otherwise what is this to the infallibility of the Church 1600 years after Christ Irenaeus is full enough in this point and point-blank against the Marques a To expound Scripture decording to Scripture is the truest way and least perilous As for Tertullian his meaning is thus made out b The Heretiques with whom the Church was to dispute did not receive all Scriptures for Canonical and those they did receive intire they did not or if intire they feigned strange Interpretations of their own fancies and a corrupt sense prejudiceth Truth as much as a corrupt Text were they accused for vitiating and falsifying the Text or for introducing absured Expositions They retorted the same Charge upon their Adversaries In this case of malicious obstinacy the Church had onely this remedy to provoke them to declare who founded their Churches for if it appeared they were the Apostles there was no more to be said it being in those days c constat and evidence enough of Truth that their Churches were of Apostolical foundation As for Vincentius having spoke before of the perfection of Scripture with a satis superque that it is all-sufficient and to spare he supposeth it may be demanded what need is there then of the Churches sense to which he answereth because all men understand it not in one sense and alike therefore it is necessary saith he that the line of interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Catholique and Ecclesiastical sense Now what is intended by a Catholique sense is the Question the Papists will have it to be Tradition unwritten but we say it is that which the Universal Church hath always held for Vincentius explains his Catholique to be that a which always every where and of all men hath been believed and this Rule we willingly admit in points essential where variety and different senses are inconsistent but in other points of less concernment we say with Saint Augustin b If any thing be set down in sacred Scriptures more obscurely as an exercise for the mindes of Believers it is commendable if it be interpreted many ways provided no way absurdly M. In matters of Faith Christ bids us do and observe whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Matth. 23. 2. therefore there is something more to be observed than Scripture True it is to be observed that his Lordship here takes observing and doing to be matters of Faith which I never read in Scripture nor anywhere else But are we to do whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Surely no if they have any Commission it is not greater than that of Moses was and his was after the tenour of the words delivered him in the Mount Exod. 34. 27. And therefore Christ saith In vain ye worship me teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men Mat. 15. 9. Wil you not as wel believe what you hear Christ say as what ye hear his Ministers write Yes sure and much more for what Christ says is truth it self believe it I must but what his Ministers write is many times erroneous and then credat Judaeus Apella non ego believe it who will for me Their Commission is All things which I have commanded you M. We say the Scriptures are not easie to be understood you say they are Our Church saith it is full as well of low valleys plain ways and easie for every man to walk in as also of high hills and mountains which few men can climb unto And this the Marques in a manner grants p. 129. saying 't is easie in aliquibus but not in omnibus locis in some places not every where M. We say this Church cannot err you say it can What his Lordship means by this Church we might demand had he not told us at first to what Church he would lead his Majesty and that was the Romish Church of which our Church makes no bones to say It hath erred not onely in living and matters of ceremonies but also in matters of faith Here she is I confess somewhat bolder with the Church of Rome than the Marques was with his Majesty But perhaps the Church of England for she is not infallible may err in her
much the odds of Rome M. We hold that every Minister of the Church especially the supreme Minister or Head thereof should be in a capacity of fungifying his Office in preaching the Gospel c. you deny it How his Lordship makes the Church do Penance and puts her head and heels together for how the supreme Head can properly be a Minister of that Church whereof it is Head passeth my understanding what our Church denieth is this It is not lawfull for any man to take upon him the Office of publique Preaching or ministring the Sacraments in the Congregation before he be lawfully called and sent to execute the same And this is all his Lordship's Text urgeth M. Nor we onely deny it saith the Marques but so as that our Church hath maintained and practised it a long time for a Woman to be Head or supreme Moderatrix in the Church and many have been hanged drawn and quartered for not acknowledging of it I have read indeed of some such Women as his Lordship speaks of one in Revel. 17. 1. and by her fine cloaths vers. 4. she should be a Queen and as a Queen I am told she sits chap. 18. vers. 7. I will not say what that Queen is for fear I procure my self ill will Another who first made Rome the Mother-church And another in England called Qu. Mary who used that Title of Head of the Church and no offence taken at it having been conferr'd upon her Father by Act of Parlament in the time of Popery but her Sister Elisabeth thought it enough to be called supreme Governess who were martyr'd for not acknowledging her so neither can I nor doth his Lordship tell I shall say little to his Lordship's points of Absolution and Confession their practise is very antient and commendable and as in other cases our Church leaves them arbitrary so in some she injoyns them For Absolution you may see her form prescribed in the Liturgy in the Visitation of the Sick for Confession the Rubrick Paragraph 2. before the Communion M. We hold men may do Works of Supererogation this you deny Had not Supererogation or Superarrogancy rather been a saucy and malepert Tenet it might have given in good manners the Possibility of keeping the Commandments to have been before it for sure we should in reason be out of Gods debt before we bring him into ours But we must take it as we finde it nor am I ashamed to own what our Church holds viz. Voluntary Works besides over and above God's Commandments which they call Works of Supererogation cannot be taught without arrogancy and impiety and she reasons from Christ saying plainly When ye have done all that are commanded to you say We are unprofitable Servants His Lordship voucheth onely one single Text and that of the Vow as he takes it of single life But I observe All hear not that saying but they to whom it is given so then it is a gift if we return no more than was given where 's the Supererogation and whereas the Marques tells us it is no Commandment had he consulted with the Greek Grammar he would have found {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} let him receive it in the Imperative Mood and therefore Athanasius calleth it Caeleste aeternae virginitatis mandatum the heavenly commandment of perpetual virginity The Fathers were I grant much enamored with the vow of continency as a condition of life more agreeable to the service of God than the coupled state usually is but they never thought it a work meritorious much less able to supererogate at God's hand If they held any such opinion the Marques should have told us their words for the places urged and quoted demonstrate no such thing M. We say we have free will you deny it Our Church saith We have no power to do goodworks pleasant and acceptable to God without the Grace of God by Christ preventing us that we may have a good will and working with us when we have that good will So then we deny not all free will not a free will to evil but to good for the Apostle speaking of us in an unregenerate state saith When we were dead in sin God hath quickened us together with Christ so that there is death first a total disability in us to good then there is the new birth quickned with Christ without this we live neither the life of faith nor of works not of faith for Whosoever believes is born of God 1 John 5. 1. not of works for Whosoever loveth is born of God also 1 John 4. 7. His Lordship's three Texts oppose not what we say 1 Cor. 7. 37. The Apostle speaks of a thing in its own nature indifferent and in such things free will we deny not Deut. 30. 11. Though Life and Death be there propounded to our choice yet doth it not follow that the power of chusing Life and Death is our own and if any say with Pelagius a God would not command what he knew we could not perform my Answer is with Augustine q God commands some things more than we can do to teach us what we are to crave at his hands Matth. 23. 37. We reade that the children of Jerusalem would not be gathered together which argueth a perversity and freeness of will to disobey Christ to obey him no power at all of our selves But there might saith his Lordship have been a willingness as well as an unwillingness else Christ had wept in vain True and there had been a willingness no doubt had God will'd their gathering by his secret and efficacious as well as by his revealed wil To his Fathers A folly it is to deny they many of them exprest themselves somewhat loosly in this point having to deal with those Philosophers who held the fatal necessity of all things went so far on the other side in advancing free will as they were in the ditch of error before they minded it yea Austin himself was a while in it till Pelagius with his Heresie roused him to look up and discover where he was Austin being awake first cals up the Church who upon serious consideration finding her Doctrine in this particular warped somewhat from the Truth by the heat of Disputation sets all those right in two eminent Councels first of Milevis where she saith a God saith not it is harder for you to do without me John 15. 5. but without me ye can do nothing at all Then that of Orange b It is the gift of God when we turn away our steps from wickedness We hold it possible to keep the Commandments you hold it impossible We do not hold it impossible to keep the Commandments we have kept them all we hold it is possible for some of them by some to be lost for we miss the second out of the first Table in the Popish Bibles but as touching observing the
We hold Purgatory fire where satisfaction shall be made for sins after death you deny it Our Church saith The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory is a fond thing vainly invented and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture but rather repugnant to the word of God But his Lordship hath Scripture for it 1 Cor. 3. 13. and 15. The fire shall trie every mans work of what sort it is if any mans work shall be burnt he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire I cannot see Purgatory by this fire-light and Bellarmine is at his nusquam again There is no where mention of fire in the Scripture saith he where it is plainly meant of Purgatory And tells us that Augustine and Gregory understood this place of tribulations and Chrysostome and Theophylact of Hell But his Lordship saith Augustine and Ambrose Hierome Gregory and Origen understood it of Purgatory For Augustine I confesse he is in many several tales one of his last tracts that de Civitate Dei and one book of that Tract represents him thrice differing from himself lib. 21. cap. 16. Let not any man think of Purgatory pains to come before the day of Judgement Go 8 chapters further cap. 24. there he comes in with a constat it is manifest some are purged before the day of Judgement by temporal pains But 2 chapters beyond there be some who think the fire in this place to be meant of a purging fire after this life I do not contradict it perhaps it is true Who can tell what to make of S. Augustine now yet this we may infallibly conclude had Purgatory been then an Article of Faith as the Councel of Trent hath now made it Augustine would not have come off so staggering with a forsitan perhaps it is true Ambrose doth not interpret this place at all for 't is no Interpretation that leaves the Text as dubious as before all he saith that he who shall be saved shall endure the punishment of Fire that he may be purged by it But whither in this life or that to come not a word But in another Treatise he applieth it clearly to the day of Judgement Hierome speaks of a purging fire but neither saith where nor when All this time Purgatory fire was not heard of and though I confesse about five hundred years after Christ it began to be kindled so as one might discern the smoak of it yet it did not burn out till Saint Gregories time which was Anno Christi six hundred and ever since then the Popes have had a special care to keep it from going out seeing their cake would be very dough without it But I must retract here for Origen who lived about two hundred and thirty was clear for Purgatory so clear that he took away Hell it self and thought the very Devils themselves should be saved at the last day Lastly we hold extreme Unction to be a Sacrament you neither hold it to be a Sacrament nor practice it as a duty The M. did extremely proper to reserve Extreme Unction for the last wch 't is true we hold not to be a Sacrament for there 's to us no precept for it the Text in James only relateth to those times whilest that miraculous gift of healing lasted had we the same gift we should continue the same practice As to the Fathers who he said are on his side they speak clear beside the point Origen onely of Remission of sins by Repentance Chrysostome of saving the souls of dying persons by the help not onely of doctrinal Admonitions but of prayers also The two pieces of Augustine alleadged are confessed to be Impostures Beda is short of the Marques his thousand years it being but nine hundred since his time M. Thus most sacred Sir we have no reason to wave the Scriptures Umpirage c. The Marques here triumphs over-early the bitterness of Death is past said one yet lived few hours after it And what ever his Lordship was perswaded of his Scripture proofs sure I am his Majesty concludes with an Otherwise to his Thus After this preposterous boast his Lordship with much ado scrueth himself into the discourse of the Authority of the Church and invalidity of Scripture light which because I have already in part and shall more largely elsewhere insist upon for this time I shall pretermit But the M. is not yet empty a vent he hath found and we shall have him now dregs and all And perceiving he could not in solidity of Arguments overtake our Church he now throweth stones at her which Balsack saith is but boys play The two Objections against her are first the maintaing a Woman to be Head in the Church but this is already answered with a capite cane talia I will not make up the Verse let him chant that to his own Church The other against our Lay Chancellors excommunicating To which I answer Lay Chancellors do not excommunicate but some Ministers assistant to them but the Truth is as their Authority was too much so their practise exceeding their Authority made our Church obnoxious to such reproach as his Lordship is pleased to cast upon it and though this one be a blemish to our Church yet may she glory that she hath but one Now for the Church of Saxony you shall finde Luther c. The Marques his next Task is to discover and rip up what Luther Melanchthon Musculus Calvin c. being under the notion of Protestants have been guilty of either in Doctrine and manners 'T is well known his Authors are not very credible Witnesses nor are all the points urged matters of Faith or Morality nor are they all so to be understood as represented nor all represented so faithfully as they ought but admit them all for such and in that sense his Lordsh would have them meant yet what are Luther Calvin c. to us being not of our Church or were they of our Church they are not our Church which is not to be measured by particular men 'T was well said by Tertullian Ex personis probamus fidem an ex fide personas Doth our faith contract esteem by the persons who profess it or are not they rather the better thought on for the faith they professe But then perhaps they will demand after all his Lordship's 45. pages of elaborate pains of rendring these men thus odious Quorsum haec To what purpose did he sweat so much in the matter Answer to very good purpose both against our Church and against his Majesty Against our Church who had been bold with the Popes of Rome Against his Majesty whose Father spake his minde of them also as freely as our Church Well and what hath he gained by it very little certainly For what if Luther denied some parts of the Canonical Scripture It was but some part it was not all as Luthers great and first adversary Pope Leo
it is the body of Christ is there what need we dispute whether the Bread remaineth in Substance or not The Glosse of the Canon Law The Bread is called Christs body improperly meaning that it signifieth Christs body Against the Infallibility of the Church that is as the Marques confest to his Majesty p. 79. of the Church of Rome that is as Valentia saith the Bishop of Rome Alphonsus de Castro Every man may err in Faith yea though he be the Pope himself Gerson The Pope as well as an inferiour Bishop is obnoxious to erre in Faith Catharinus Nothing hindereth but the Pope may err in Faith though some Novellists are so impudent to hold the contrary against the common sence of all antiquity Adrian the sixth a Pope himself affirmeth it for certain That a Pope may erre in asserting heresy by his Decree and that many Popes have been heretiques Bannes It was the general opinion of all the ancient both Popes and School-men till Pighius and since him of the more sober Doctors as Cajetan Turrecremata Victoria Soto Canus and others that the Pope of Rome may become an heretique Against Merits and Supererogation Waldensis He is the best Catholique who confesseth that simply no man meriteth the Kingdom of heaven but obtaineth it of Gods free grave Ferus If thou desirest to keep in Gods favour make no mention of thine own Merits Durandus If God give any reward to our good deeds it is not because he is a debter to our works but out of his own bounty Ariminensis No work performed by man is condignely meritorious of eternal life no nor of any temporal reward Pighius We are made righteous not by our own righteousnesse but by the righteousnesse of God in Christ This is that Pighius who Bellarmine saith was miserably seduced by reading Calvins works But who was it seduced the Cardinal himself to pray that God would admit of him amongst the Elect not a priser of his Merit but a dispenser of pardon and forgivenesse Against Invocation of Saints Halensis our Country-man God alone is simply to be prayed to the Saints are rather assistants in the behalf of those who pray then fit to be prayed to Bannes That Saints are to be prayed to and images to be worshipped is neither expresly nor by implication taught in Scripture Suarez That in the Old Testament any one did directly pray to the Saints departed either to help them or pray for them we no where read Salmeron Invocation of Saints is not mentioned in the New Testament and it may administer occasion to the Gentiles of worshipping many Gods Durandus Adoration must be bestowed onely upon God not upon the Angels lest we fall into the sin of Idolatry Against Communion halfed Halensis whole Christ is not conteined in either kind Sacramentally but his flesh under the species of bread and his bloud under the species of wine Lorichius 'T is heresy and execrable blasphemy of Bastard-Catholiques who say that Christ spake onely to the Apostles saying Drink ye all of this when both these words Eat and Drink were spoken to the whole Church Valentia Communion under one kind began to be generally received a little before the Councel of constance Pope Gelasius We find that one part of the Sacrament cannot be received without the other without committing great Sacriledge Against the Sacrifice of the Masse The Master of the sentences It is demanded if what the Priest consecrateth be properly a Sacrifice to this it may be briefly replied that what is offered by the Priest is called a Sacrifice because it is a Memorial and representation of the ture Sacrifice made once upon the Crosse Against the seven Sacraments Cardinal Bessarion Baptisme and the Lords Supper are the onely Sacrament delivered evidently in the Gospels Thomas Aquinas The form of Baptisme and the Eucharist are extant in the Scriptures but not the form of other Sacraments Matrimony is not to speak properly a Sacrament Durandus There want not some Catholiques who grant that Matrimony is no Sacrament of the new Law Bellarmine Penance is divided amongst the Papists into Confession absolution and satisfaction But Confession is denied to be any part of this Sacrament by Scotus Major Gabriel and absolution is denied by Dominicus a Soto and Bellarmine himself saith that inward contrition is sufficient to save us without either absolution or Confession The Sacrament of confirmation as it is a Sacrament was neither instituted by Christ nor his Apostles Halensis The Apostles delivered neither the matter nor form of this Sacrament but onely confirm'd some without the Ministery of a Sacrament Bonaventute Of the form of this Sacrament we read nothing in Scripture if we resort to tradition we shall find a great deal of variety amongst the Fathers Sudres There are but two places urged from Scripture for extream unction Marc. 6. vers. 13. is the first where it is said that the Apostles anointed with oyl many that were sick and healed them But Bellarmine denieth that unction to be Sacramental because saith he the Apostles were not yet made Priests The other is James 5. 14. cited by the Marques and Cajetan saith neither from the words nor from the effect can it be gathered that the Apostle speaks thereof the Sacramental union Against Purgatory Roffensis Purgatory cannot be proved by Scripture and amongst the antients there is none at all or very rawly any mention of Purgatory and the Greek Church denieth it to this day Otho Fris That there is any such place of Purgatory in hell wherein they who are to be saved must be purified by an expiatory fire some but not all assert By this time I hope I have made good my promise for I think the Romish Catholiques nor can nor will deny but all these are their own Doctors and all this our Doctrine Finally If neither prescription of 1600 years possession and continuance of our Churches Doctrine nor our evidence out of the Word of God nor the Fathers witnessing to that evidence nor the decrees of Councels nor your own acknowledgements be sufficient to mollify and turn your Royal heart there is no more means left for truth or me but I must leave it to God in whose hand are the hearts of Kings This Finally contradicts his Lordships late lastly and it is a formidable a terrible conclusion a conclusion able to make the stoutest Protestant reel did we not know that these are but words of course and meer set forms of Ostentation what is indeed more feasable then to be foyl'd when he who is our enemy {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} is become all he can desire accuser witnesse Judge But shall his Lordship carry away this conclusion {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}
weak finite and erring men still their Canons are no Articles of Faith their Decrees no infallible Rules Not so in the primitive Church I am assured by the confession of both sides Augustine being to dispute with Maximinus his first demand was Dic mihi fidem Rehearse to me thy faith the subtle Heretique supposing Augustine would urge the Nicene Creed against him reply'd I believe as the Councel of Ariminum believes but finding after that Augustine would not take this for an Answer says further I did not plead the Councel of Ariminum to excuse my opinion but to shew the Authority of the Fathers who according to Scripture delivered to us a Confession of Faith which they had out of the Scripture Augustine perceiving Maximinus let go the Councel of Ariminum was resolved to stand as little upon the Councel of Nice but closed with him thus Neither ought I to produce the Councel of Nice against thee nor thou that of Ariminum against me I am not bound to the authority of this nor thou of that let us in our conflict urge the authority of scripture witness indifferent to both and not peculiar to either See here the Orthodox and Heretique both compromise to abide the order of Scripture and both wave the Authority and Judgement of two General Councels which certainly they would not have done had they reputed them infallible and a Judge not infallible shall rule no Faith of mine But the Doctor tells us page 79. His Society of Men must be such as can say It seemed good unto us and to the holy Ghost Now Doctor you speak to the point indeed that Society of Men that Church would I fain see but are you well advised what you say If yea then it must seem good to the holy Ghost because so to us whereas the first form if he ever promised to be there with infallible assistance I dare take his word for it but had it to the holy Ghost first and then to us But assign the holy Ghost what place ye please if he be there 't is all I look for and I will not take yours unless you shew me that promise which hitherto you have not done But we will not part so neither admit for once you finde the Church you so hunt for and a spirit of infallibility directing her in that Councel must and will all Controversies presently cease Certainly no such matter for may not perverse spirits wrest to their own destruction what the holy Ghost shall declare in a General Councel as well as what he hath delivered in the sacred Scripture Did not the Nestorians vouch for their Heresie the Authority of the Councel of Nice as General a Councel and as much endowed with the holy Ghost as ever any since that of Hierusalem was or I believe shall be Nor do I speak onely of what the malice of Satan sowing Tares and man's crooked untoward will a soil proper for them may produce for the holy Ghost speaks in a manner signanter and expresly there must be notwithstanding such assistance Controversies still For if there must be Heresies there will be without controversie Controversies still and that Heresies must be the holy Ghost tells us 1 Cor. 11. 19. So that the revenue and product of all I have said is this That the true Church hath not the supreme Judicature over Questions of Faith and if she had yet Controversies would and must still continue and all this I hope I have not onely said but proved I confesse ingeniously sure he meant ingenuously for there was no great wit in his confession that there is not a thing that I ever understood lesse than that Assertion of the Scriptures being Judge of Controversies though in some sort I must and will acknowledge it The Doctor was here going a step beyond the Papists themselves who all hold the Scriptures to be an infallible Rule but resum'd himself and modifieth his speech with an acknowledgement of it to be so in some sense but in what he thought us not worthy to know Nor since he is so reserved will we much inquire because when known it can extend little to our satisfaction But though we must not know in what sense it is sole Judge yet in what it is not he tells us and that is Not as it is a Book consisting of papers words and letters for as we commonly say in matters of civil Differences The Law shall be Judge between us we do not meane that every man shall run unto the Law-books or that any Lawyer himself shall search his Law-cases and thereupon possesse himself of the thing in question without a legal Triall by lawfull Judges constituted to that same purpose How the Doctor thinks he hath nickt it and yet I fear he is so far from hitting the White as he hath mist the But For first the Comparison is extremely wide Things ad extra and what are without us may be stated and determined by civil Judicatories but Faith is a thing mixt of the understanding and the will over which none can claim Jurisdiction Man may adjudge away my Land my Faith he cannot and therefore I must say with the Poet Hane animam concede mihi tua eaetera sunto Secondly in civil Differences will the Doctor say that the Judges decide the Question or the Law For if the Judgement be given according to the Law then the Law is the Judge I take it and if contrary to Law or not according to it he who so determineth is not a Judge but an Arbitrator Our Law judgeth no man c. saith Nicodemus there the Law was the Judge And though with us in England the Law is a kinde of Craft or Mystery full of Quirks and Intricacies yet in other places as in Denmark Onely the Parties at variance plead their own Cause and then a Man stands up and reades the Law and there 's an end for the very Law-book is the onely Judge saith my royal Author and adds Happy were all Kingdoms if they could be so Lastly where the Doctor saith It is not our meaning that every man shall run unto the Law-books We will though not yield it yet suppose it so in other Differences but in Divinity it is clearly otherwise for there is an expresse Command given by Christ himself not to the Pharisees onely but generally to all Search the Scriptures and it were a meer mockery in our Saviour to bid us Reade the Scriptures if they were like Caligula's Laws written in so smal an hand that we cannot reade them or in so obscure words as we cannot without the help of the Church in matters of Salvation understand them In like manner saving knowledge and divine Truths are the Portion that all God's Children lay fast claim to yet they must not be their own Carvers though it be their own meat that is before them whilest they have a Mother at the Table It is no Argument of ill
all-sufficiency of Scripture after which the Doctor rejoyns All that your Majesty hath said concerning the scriptures sufficiency is true provided that those Scriptures be duly handled for as the Law is sufficient to determine right and keep all in peace and quietnesse yet the execution of that sufficienciency cannot be performed without Courts and Judges The Doctor holds his own Comparison still Well Doctor we have a Court too Forum conscientiae the Court of every mans conscience and a Judge also of that Court if you demand Who 'T is every mans self and therefore they who controul that Court are by the voice of truth it self {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} condemned of themselves For as Hierome tells us who was no great Friend to Popes or Bishops If there be not admitted in the Church the Authority of one eminent and peerlesse Power above others there will be as many Schismes in the Church as Priests Doctor you are out let me put you in the Questions we speak of are of Heresie not of Schisme that relates to dogmatical points of Faith this to outward Rites Ceremonies are the Garments of Religion not the Body and Cloath are for Ornament yet not for that only they are also to keep the Body warm a Religion naked without Ceremonies will have but little outward warmth but a frozen zeal if I may so say and too many Cloaths are as bad and cumbersome on the other side Fit it is the Church should appoint her self what and how many she will wear for leave it at liberty there will indeed be Schismes as many as Hierome speaks of Wherefore I would fain finde out that which the Scripture bids me hear Audi Ecclesiam c. The Doctor is again at his Hear the Church Matth. 18. and I again must tell him that place is onely applyable to Ecclesiastical discipline But that the Church may the better be heard the Doctor tells us from Saint Paul that she is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth from Ezekiel that God will place his sanctification in the midst of her for ever from Esay that the Lord will never forsake her from our Saviour that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her and that he will be always with her unto the end of the world All this we grant and yet deny all that the Doctor would from these Texts infer for first it is evident not any one of all these is to be understood or hath any reference to a Representative Church or General Councel but to the Universal Catholique Church Secondly if a General Councel were intended by them yet there is not any grant of an infallible spirit to direct that Councel and without the spirit of infallibility men will be and no more than need very cautelous of yielding plenary obedience to her Decrees Doct. For although the Psalmist tells us that the word of the Lord is clear enlightening the eyes yet the same Prophet said to God enlighten mine eyes that I may see the marvels of thy Law c. The Doctor labours here to prove the obscurity of the Scriptures and that they are so in some places I never heard and man yet deny but that they are so in all the Doct. himself dares not cannot deny The truth is as Augustine said Excellently The holy Ghost hath so modified and tempered the Scriptures that there are clear places to satisfie the hunger and darker to procure the appetite of the Soul and if {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} whatsoever is necessary for us to believe is there clear and manifest we are well enough But the Doct. saith no man hath ever yet defin'd what are necessary and what not what points are fundamental and what not Hath no man defin'd what is necessary what is fundamental Yes Doctor Learned Hooker tells you it is the Doctrine which the Prophets and Apostles professe the late Reverend Arch-Bishop tells you the Articles of the Creed which is but the summary of that Doctrine are such and so is the belief of the Scriptures to be the word of God and infallible Necessary to salvation is one thing and necessary to knowledge as an improvement of our Faith is another thing True Doctor there are different things but quid refert what matter is it what is necessary to that knowledge which is not necessary to salvation T is a learned ignorance not to know that which our great Master will not teach us T is fides tua said Tertullian thy Faith not the curiosity of being skilfull in the Scriptures hath saved thee cedat curiositas Fidei cedat gloria saluti Let curiosity give place to Faith vanity and ostentation to Salvation For the first if a man keeps the Commandments and believes all the Articles of the Creed he may be saved though he never read a word of Scripture May he be saved Doctor I hope it is more then possible then may be he shall undoubtedly be saved and so he shall if he believes all the Scripture though he never read a word of it But why Doctor do you distinguish between the Articles of the Creed and the Scriptures are not those Articles the word of God as well as the Scripture I take it they are First as framed by the Apostles themselves men Divinely inspired as all the Fathers agree Secondly because they containe the pith and marrow of the Scriptures all the Doctrine necessary to salvation being there abbreviated He who means to walk by the rules of Gods word must lay hold upon the means that God hath ordained whereby he may attain to the true understanding of them for as St. Paul saith God hath placed in the Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Doctors to the end we should be no more little children blown about with every wind of Doctrine Were I disposed to quarrel I could tell you Doctor Bayly or Doctor Stapleton chuse you which that your Text is out of date and that the Prophets and Evangelists there mentioned were extraordinary and proper onely to those times and the Presbyterian party will tell you as much of the Apostles so that there will be onely left Pastors and Doctors which with St. Augustine I conceive to be both one of perpetual use in the Church for the work of the Ministery part of which work I freely grant is the interpretation of the Scriptures Again I might expostulate as the Apostle doth 1. Cor. 12. 30. do all interpret have all Pastors that gift And admit they have have they all that assistance of the Holy Ghost in an infallible guidance which those Pastors of the Apostolical times had Nay is that infallible assistance now afforded to any one of all the Pastors in the world If yea let us know the man so qualified if not then what remedy but we may be still blown about with every puff of Doctrine and what will then become of your external Judge
lamentable But though to the members of the Church the Authority of the Church be a vehement and strong motive yet to Pagans and Infidels who will own no such thing as a Church it is no motive at all if they question the Scriptures Divinity studious either of cavil or to be converted they must be refuted or invited by arguments drawn from reason wherein they intercommune with us and to speak truth reason will carry them a very great way on towards even to the very brink of Faith reason will tell them that the Soul is immortal that it is not onely capable but desirous of happinesse that that felicity of the Soul cannot consist in either riches honour Beauty strength learning or any earthly thing they being all too narrow for it and too short-lived but in the beatifical vision and contemplation of its Creator who is onely able to fill it and in whose presence is the fulness of joy for evermore It will tell them that though God is their last home videant quo eant they may see whither they should go non habent qua eant yet how to come there is beyond the ken of Reason and that though Religion be the way to him yet dim-sighted reason will never be able to find that way till God himself reveals it for Author de Deo est ipse Deus God himself is and must be the Authour of that which brings us to him and it were inconsistent with the Providence of the All-wise God to withhold from man that means without which impossible it is for man to attain that end for which he was created Therefore Augustine chargeth it hence upon the Pagan Gods as a grosse neglect in not instructing of their worshippers in the way and means to happinesse To the care of the solicitous Gods saith he it did belong not to conceal from their worshippers the rudiments of living well but to teach them by clear publication also to convent and reprove offenders by their Prophets to threaten open punishment to those who do ill and to promise reward to those who live well Reason therefore will thus teach them the necessity of some conveyance from God of his revealed will and that necessity will also infer the actual being of such a Revelation considering that Deus non deficit in necessariis God is not wanting in affording what is necessary This necessity and being of Divine revelation once allowed reason will make it further credible that the Scriptures now received and entertained amongst us Christians as the word of God are indeed and in truth that revealed will of God For first they have no rival there is none other stands in competition with them the Gods of the Ethnicks gave their worshippers none Secondly if there were any other yet none must compare with them they having many Prerogatives above all other These Prerogatives are First Antiquity the Doctrine of them being far ancienter then all other Religions in the world and almost as ancient as time it self had it but begun with Moses it had carried the priority and antecedency of time from all other by the confession of the heathens themselves as Josephus proveth but it was before him Nam unde Noe c. For how was Noah found righteous but by the preceding Justice of the Law of nature How was Abraham reputed the friend of God but by the equity of the same Law How was Melchisedeck called the Priest of the most high God if before the Priest-hood settled by the Levetical Law there were not Priests to offer Sacrifice Nay it was before the Floud even in Paradise it self there was the doctrine of saving Truth first instituted which afterward was not renewed but enlarged was not changed but perfected Secondly the Spirituality of the doctrine as God is a Spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and truth so is the fabrique frame and contrivance of the Scriptures conformable to him 't is not a doctrine of sensuality and dissolutenesse not a doctrine of self-ends and by-respects not a doctrine of worldly pomp and state not a doctrine of wicked principles and discipline but a doctrine of sobriety and of self-denial and of humility and of virtue a doctrine tending onely to God and what is in order to him which sequestreth the soul from all earthly imaginations and cogitations and fixeth them onely upon God Thirdly the perfection of them the excellent symmetry of parts there is nothing lame nothing idle nothing impertinent in them they were not written by chance and at all adventure there 's not a syllable not a tittle but hath a masse of treasure comprehended and contrived in them Fourthly the excellency of the mode stile and form of expression descending to the meanest transcending the highest capacities where God one whiles insinuates himself into the conscience in the language of a familiar Friend another while reclaims it with the indignation of an incensed Judge where Elegancy is without levity and affectation plainnesse without irksonesse and satiety wherein the most curious spirits may be exercised the most ignorant instructed Fifthly the truth of them in the accomplishment of what was there prophesied and we may confidently believe what we see performed as Cyrus his very Name principal atchievements foretold by Esay the end of the Siege of Jerusalem by Jeremiah the translation of the Assyrian Empire to the Medes and Persians by Daniel but most especially the coming of our Saviour Christ the true Messias at the very time designed of seventy Weeks by Daniel 9. 24. The calling of the Gentiles by Esay c. 60. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews by Zechariah 12. 13. Lastly the destruction of the second Temple by Daniel c. 9. And our Saviour Christ Luke 19. 43. Sixthly the miraculous preservation of the Books themselves first against the injuries of neglect as the Law found in the rubbish of the Temple 2 Kings 22. after the wretched neglect thereof in the time of Manasseth Secondly against the injuries of alteration {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} c. For in the Flux of so many Ages no man durst either add diminish or change any part of them for which end Esdras Gamaliel Eleazar and others contrived that excellent Treasure of the Masoreth to denote the diversity of Readings in the Hebrew Text Lastly against the injuries of persecution as in the time of Dioclesian who commanded all the Bibles he could discover to be burnt They who delivered them up being call'd Traditores Traitors a word frequent in Saint Augustine against the Donatists the main quarrell being between the Church and them about the non-reception of those Apostates into the Congregation Seventhly the thrift and propagation of the Gospel in spite of all opposition and persecution By how many Tyrants was the Church afflicted yet never conquered and destroyed The Romans often pruned and lopt its Professors off