Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	church_n	faith_n	point_n	4,685	5	7.0514	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A03418	A letter to Mr. T.H. late minister: now fugitiue: from Sir Edvvard Hoby Knight. In answere of his first Motiue	Hoby, Edward, Sir, 1560-1617.	1609 (1609)	STC 13541; ESTC S104131	47,450	130

your selfe taken in the manner wherfore I will returne in a word to the iustifying of D. H. assertion It will bee verie tedious to set before you the whole summe of that pithie answere to Campians fifth reason De patribus Ab ouo vsque ad mala Which if you iudiciallie peruse you shall see he had good reason after so great promises and small performances on his aduersaries part to conclude as he did In the entrance of that subiect Campian would faine make the world beleeue that our Church had quite deposed the most ancient Fathers and doctors and that if we would make triall by them our cause were instantlie gone Omnes nostri sunt saith he in effect All the ships on the Attique shore all the Fathers are ours The day is ours Vnto this challenge our D. returneth this answere Nos horum patrum auctoritatem solummodò veneramur nos ad horum Synedrion sacro sanctum prouocamus They alone shall bee our Iudges wee will appeale to them And againe Verè ac propriè nostros patres in terris vocamus Prophetas Apostolos patres non à patre patrato sed à patre patrum delectos Wee account them our fathers whom the Father of heauen hath set ouer vs. All the exception he maketh against the challenge is this Jncipit saith hee ab aureae aetatis heroibus à patribus maiorum gentium sed mox ad alios vel aenei vel ferrei seculi homines descendit quos in vnum quasi globum sine vllo discrimine coniungit This is our D. resolution hee is willing to stand to the iudgement of the Prophets Apostles and Primitiue fathers adding only this that hee maketh a difference betweene those of the g Jnter patres paterculos golden age and those which succeed in the brasen and iron age of the world which the leauen and leprosie of Romish superstition hath sowred and infected Now how farre your Challengers right commeth short of his claime the conference of both their writings will more fullie declare then the breuitie of a letter will permit And in this behalfe I had rather referre you to a knowne h Printed at London 1608. Sermon yet so farre as I can learne vnanswered that was preached at Pauls Crosse Febr. 13. 1607 wherein it will appeare at least in twentie points how little countenance you haue from those holy fathers with whose names your frothie discourses are so stuffed and your controuersies bombasted I am not now an opponent to vrge the particulars wherein you proue destitute of those Fathers who are still at your pens end I shall hold it sufficient if I can at this time assoile that worthie father from your wrongfull imputations First for his euasion Campian had obiected The inuisibilitie of our Church and that we stood only at the reuersion of Aërius Vigilantius c. for some pestiferous fragments Now D. H. not knowing how to winde himselfe out of this difficultie is driuen as you say to slip collar thus VVherein Aerius did erre we reiect it wherin he held any thing agreeable to the Scripture we receiue it And consequently in this point of prayer for the dead we and our Church will not digresse from Aërius I would wish none of my friends to open his mouth against the least Retainer to Purgatorie Belzebub himselfe shall finde more fauour at your hands then such a man What Because the Diuels i Mark 3.13 confessed that Iesus was the Sonne of God will you therefore abiure it and blot it out of your Creed If Aërius howsoeuer otherwise erroneous doe ioyne with the Primitiue Church in nullifying oblations for the dead will you therefore haue our Church so nice as in a stomack to maintaine the contrarie Had D. H. said Aërius disliked them Ergo wee will not entertaine them then had he giuen the question to his aduersarie in the debate of our Churches Antiquitie this had bin indeed to picke the crums that had fallen from his table But because Aërius an Heretique was of this opinion that therfore it is a new coined doctrine and a disgrace for our church to hold it our D. thought it no good consequēce In matters of this kind wee are not to consider Quis but Quid not VVho it is or by whom this or that point is professed but Quid what it is that is held If the person be an k Galath 1.8 Angell we haue our warrant to refuse him if he bring 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any thing besides that which the word warranteth on the contrarie if the doctrine be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that which is written or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 agreeable to that which we haue receiued though the person be an infernall spirit that vttereth it yet he is not to be refused What were this but with the l Pag. 76. Anabaptists and Brownists as you say to frequent no Church because there is some blemish in euerie Church were he not a wise minter that refuseth gold because there is much drosse though there be much chaffe in the heape yet will not the husbandman forsake his wheate shall the Arian heresie of Aërius make those other truthes which hee held to be of lesse esteeme By this reason we should not haue had one article of our faith left many hundred yeares ago if because of mens errors in some points we should therfore dissent from them in all What cause is there then why I should not highly extol this worthie saying of that Venerable man VVee are not ashamed to ioyne with Aërius saith he where Aërius ioyneth with the Scriptures Obserue this I pray you hee beleeueth it not because Aërius saith it is true but because that is true which Aërius saith therefore he beleeueth it Yea should a hūdred Councels of Romish Pharasaicall Scribes condemne him as an Heretique yet were he no whit lesse to bee followed in that wherein he followeth the VVord Call you this an Euasion to hold that which is agreeable to the written word Indeed whatsoeuer distasteth your quaint humors is an euasion Wel all the aduantage you get by such euasions you may put into your eie and see neuer a whit the worse Neither is the Collusion with which he is charged of any more moment then the former the words of our D. are these Non improbamus nos quod sensit Aërius Augustinus retulit non oportere nos orare vel oblationem offerre pro mortuis quia nullo Scripturae dicto continetur quod Aug. significare videtur quando hanc commendationem mortuorum dicit veterem esse ecclesiae consuetudinem We do not disproue that which Aërius taught and Augustine hath related that we ought not to pray nor offer oblation for the dead because this is not contained in any precept of the Scripture which Augustine also doth seeme to signifie when he saith that this commendation of the dead was an ancient custome

accomplishment of their happinesse both for the bodie and the soule by which they are not a little relieued This is as much as the Scripture will warrant and further bare custome backed onely with that place of the Machabees must not lead vs. This is that which D. Humfrey without any delusion professeth when hee saith h Cont. Camp pars 2. p. 262. Quae haec stupida impietas vt homines defuncti à viuentium meritis à monachorum cucullis ocreis à sacerdotum missis precibus ab amicorum teiunijs alijsque operibus dependeant What blockish impietie is it that men departed should depend vpon the merits of those that are aliue vpon the cowles and buskins of Monkes vpon the Masses and praiers of the Priests vpon the fasts Dirges and such like workes of their friends What Delusion can there be in so plaine words Augustine saith he pleades custome but he implieth that there is no Scripture to maintaine this oblation So that that which he looked for from his aduersaries was this not that they should i Pag. 38. propound the difference between our commendation and theirs but that they should produce Scripture to iustifie their Altar their holy Sacrifice their superstitious intention wherin they dissent from vs and wherein S. Augustine bids them trust to their owne proofe as hauing no other shelter but Custome for them at all How can you recompence this worthie Saint for those many cauils wherewith you haue sought to blast his reputation blazing indeed your own shame I hope you will now giue him leaue to borrow the saying of S. Paul k Galath 6.17 De caetero nemo sit mihi molestus he now resteth in peace hauing left behind him not only the happie memorie of a blessed life but also so many obliged friends who will neuer suffer any of his elaborate lines to be blurred with wrongfull disgrace especially by those who with a Catalogue of great names with Ponderations and Considerations thinke to beard the truth l 1. Esd 4.41 Magna est veritas praeualet It is not one strained Scripture that can support the declining waight of decayed Purgatorie it will aske more reparations then the book of God will willinglie bestow vpon it Purgatorie you say is the issue vnto which your thoughts do finallie incline and therefore hauing alreadie laid flat your weaker defences I will plant my batterie to your strongest Bulwarke §. 5. ANd for as much as M. Caluins censure of Purgatorie is held by you as a Pag. 53. a specious venditation though I will giue you leaue to make your best of his Eldership which whilome was your adored Saint yet will I maugre your colourable meditations make good the truth of this his assertion That Purgatory is a pernicious fiction of Satan disgracefull vnto the great mercy of God euacuating the crosse of Christ dissipating and peruerting our faith You think to blow him vp with a b Pag. 131. Syllogisme Now then haue at your c Pag. 154. Point-deuice Purgatory is a Satanical figment I proue it thus 1 That place which neither God made 2 nor Christ mentioned 3 nor the Apostles beleeued 4 nor the Primitiue Church embraced 5 nor the first foure general Councels confirmed is a meere figment of Satan But such a place is purgatorie Ergo A meere figment of Satan For the first God made nothing in vaine nor superfluous But Purgatorie is vaine and superfluous Ergo. My Minor is proued thus VVhatsoeuer is in the Lords field is either d Matth. 13.8 and 25. Corne or Tares But Purgatorie serueth for neither of these there being a Barne prouided for the one and an vnquenchable fire for the other Ergo e Maior vis in negatione quā in affirmatione There being no third sort of Persons this third imaginarie place is superfluous For the second Had Christ deliuered a Doctrine so materiall it would haue been expresly f Accepi à D●mino 1. Cor. 11.23 recorded But there is no such record either registred by the Euangelists or alledged by your selues Ergo neuer mentioned For the third Had the Apostles beleeued it they had been iniurious to the distressed soules to haue continued their paines by their vncharitable Concealement especially giuing written instructions of g Praeceptum domini non habeo consilium autem do 1. Cor. 7.25 lesse momēt But in all their aduertisements touching those that sleepe it is suppressed Ergo not beleeued For the fourth Jf Purgatorie were embraced by the Primitiue Church then was it as an Apostolicall Tradition there being no expresse Scripture to ratifie it But not as an Apostolicall tradition Ergo Not at all embraced That it was not held by them as an Apostolicall Tradition I proue thus As it was held by the Primitiue Church so was it deriued to posteritie But it was not deriued to posteritie as an Apostolicall tradition Ergo not so embraced by the Primitiue Church The Minor I proue thus Euery Apostolicall tradition is knowne by these two h Aug. cont Donat. lib. 4. cap. 24. markes First it must be held ab vniuersa Ecclesia there is the Generalitie Secondly Semper there is the Perpetuitie But neither had Purgatorie generall approbation nor perpetuall succession Ergo no Apostolicall tradition The Minor is confirmed by the testimony of Polydore i De inuent lib. 8. cap. 1. Aliquandiu incognitum fuit serò cognitum vniuersae ecclesiae It was a great while before Purgatorie was heard of and but of late knowne to the vniuersal Church Serò cutteth off the Perpetuitie and the emphasis of Vniuersae intimateth no Generalitie If successiuely it was deriued from the Primitiue Church then vndoubtedlie it could be no stranger to the Greeke Church But to put you out of all hope of this your k Articulo 18. cont Luth. Roffensis is cōtent to bring you this heauie newes Vsque ad hunc diem Graecis non est cognitum Purgatorium The Greekes know not Purgatorie vnto this day Nay he further explaineth himselfe propounding this challenge Legat qui velit Grecorum veterum cōmentarios nullum quantum opinor aut quam rarissimum de Purgatorio sermonem inueniet Reade he that list the ancient Greeke Commentaries he shal find either little or no mention at all of Purgatorie Where is now your continued Perpetuitie He serueth your Generalitie with the same sauce Sed neque Latini simul omnes at sensim huius rei veritatem conceperunt Neither did all of the Latine Church receiue it at once there was some strugling in Rebeccaes wombe and by degrees they receiued this truth So that it was long before they receiued it Ergo no Perpetuitie they receiued it not all at once there was belike some opposition Ergo no Generalitie and then the latter must yeeld vnto the former by your owne l Pag. 3. rule Now for the fifth and last member of my proposition If it